Have you costed out ongoing costs of full-electric combined with X number of car rentals?

Sorry to piggyback on the post, I've got a question to tag on: does anyone have any recommendations for Berlin? I've already been to the major landmarks and museums, so I'm looking for more out-of-the-way cultural stuff, restaurants, etc.

Dude.

Glad you came out of the accident O.K.

For me, I think my choice would depend on the price of the used car. I have heard they are much higher relative to the new car prices than the last time I bought a car. I'm trying to see if we can't make our cars last another five years so I can see how the technology shakes out.

Sorry to piggyback on the post, I've got a question to tag on: does anyone have any recommendations for Berlin? I've already been to the major landmarks and museums, so I'm looking for more out-of-the-way cultural stuff, restaurants, etc

Had a great meal for the price, at Zenkichi off Friedrichsstrasse (northern end). Primark on Alexanderplatz is very useful when Easyjet loses your luggage and you need cheap business attire ASAP. Museum-wise I've only done the obvious stuff so far (well, plus the Stone brewery, which may or may not be obvious to you). I'm going back in a couple of weeks though, so I may have more recommendations in October.

That was me.

It is really awful to lose an old car that runs well and you have confidence in. You never get anything close to fair compensation and it sucks.

I feel sympathy, which is not something I ever thought I would feel for someone losing a Vibe.

Because they are deeply ugly cars.

When I saw the Pontiac Vibe, I immediately despaired for the anal game. Too easy!

The only car I crashed sucked. And I didn't crash it hard enough to get a new one.

That's why you find a drunk person to do it right.

Not a car recommendation and I've no idea which city you live in sir kraab or what your transportation needs are BUT i am recently the besotted owner of a fancy electric assist bike and i am annoyingly super duper enthusiastic, it is the absolutely bombe, baby. so much fun!!! highly recommend!

12: What model? I had one 4-5 years back and the battery made it so heavy it was barely an assist.

Very sorry to hear about the accident---damn those intoxicated drivers!

A new plug-in hybrid or electric car might not be much more expensive than a conventional car, depending on the tax rebates in your state and whether you can claim the full amounts. They do depreciate quickly on the used market, partly because the old technology is less desirable, and because only the original owner can get the tax rebate.

You would need a good place at home to charge it, of course, and it helps if you can charge it for free at your workplace.

I really don't see many assist bikes around here. Just lots of regular bikes and actual electric scooters.

an absurdly expensive and pretty faraday. it works great, two levels of assist and you can turn it off as well which i love. dream commute of about 3.75-4 miles between home and office, no problems hauling computer and work crap back and forth. and i have secure storage at work, so i'm not worrying about it being nicked.

Wow, that is expensive. But looks cool. How much continuous use do you get out of it between recharges?

yes, the cost makes me feel bad except when i am out and about and find myself behind or next to someone in similar life circs driving a faaaar more expensive sports car, then i don't feel so bad. ;-) i use between a quarter and a third of a battery charge going to and from the office, with some hills but nothing extreme by sf standards. i very rarely use the higher setting of assist, almost never on the daily commute. a surprisingly big variable in the amount of charge consumed is the *wind*. last night coming home the wind on market around larkin-polk was gusting so strongly that bicyclists were being nearly blown over, and when i've gone to ocean beach through the park on a sunday drive the wind heading west (and mostly downhill) eats through the charge, whereas heading east the wind is at your back and so mitigates the amount of assist being used on uphill inclines. in the east bay i imagine the wind wouldn't be that extreme of a factor.

I have heard they are much higher relative to the new car prices than the last time I bought a car.

I've recently read the same. So many people have imbibed "never buy new" that the used car market no longer works the way it used to. Heavily model-dependent, but.

Anyway, for the same reason you're contemplating leasing, you shouldn't really be looking at used hybrids et al. The new Volt is better than the old Volt, and if you can afford the new one, do so (barring some fabulous deal).

I recently realized that the solution to getting AB to bike with me more is to get her an electric assist bike, but even cheapies are probably out of budget right now.

OTOH, her cousin-in-law has been building DIY models, and the one I tried was crazy fun. SO maybe I convert her existing bike (he uses replacement iPhone batteries sourced on eBay, or something like that).

The head of the local bike advocacy org is a big believer in electric assist as being a big part of real change around here.

I've always liked the Volt, but 1 is a very good question.

What's the electrical generation in your neck of the woods? I assuage my guilt over driving a IC engine with the fact that electric here is almost 100% coal (also I have no realistic way to charge one).

Our neighborhood is on city power, so it's all either hydropower or renewables.

You should get one of those Fred Flintstone cars with the foot-powered assist.

This Lego Bugatti looks like a fun ride.

https://jalopnik.com/please-let-me-drive-this-life-size-lego-bugatti-chiron-1828731445

I just finished test driving a new Volt. Pretty good, except not much headroom for the freakishly tall.

Is buying union-made about displaying support? Or does that priority become less important if it's a used car?

It's not about displaying support is about actually supporting; that is, I'd drive union even if car makes weren't obvious. Even buying a used car, I'd be supporting a secondary market.

Except that there's apparently not a great secondary market for hybrids and electrics at all because only the first owner gets the benefit of the tax credit.

Have you considered traveling back in time to prevent your parents from giving you full nutrition while growing?

Have you costed out ongoing costs of full-electric combined with X number of car rentals?

Good question. Costwise, it would in fact be cheaper to have the hybrid. The furthest I ever drive is from Austin to Galveston, approx. 430 mi. roundtrip. In a hybrid that would cost less than $50 for gas while a week's rental would cost something like $250.

But, the Bolt supposedly gets 435 miles on a charge, so if I were sure there were charging stations I could use, I could make the trip with a relatively peaceful mind.

But what if there wasn't a charging station where I thought there was or the power were out on the Gulf Coast (entirely plausible) or something? For that matter, what if the power went out in Austin for a few days or we had to evacuate and got stuck on the highway or some other climate-change-panic-induced what if? I feel like I need a fossil fuel binkie.

28: Finally, someone with a practical approach to my problems.

29: I think that figure is incorrect. The 2019 Bolt range is listed at 238 miles, and even that is probably only unattainable under ideal conditions.

Meet General Motors halfway is all I'm saying.

Thanks. I was assuming it was for ideal conditions, but even then it seemed extremely high. I must have looked at the wrong thing.

the thinking is that the technology is evolving so rapidly that in 2 or 3 years there'll be much better options

I had this exact thought 2 years and 8 months ago when I entered into a 3 year lease of my current ride. Not feeling it so much now -- if the President has his way, we'll have little shovels to get coal into the firebox as we drive along.

I don't expect to see good plug-in coverage in a lot of the places I drive during my lifetime, so I guess it's going to have to be a hybrid next time.

Hasn't Ford stopped making cars?

Anyway, our cars get bad gas mileage, but they're both union made. Also, we don't drive very much, what with me taking the bus and us living our entire lives within a three mile radius.

Ooh, I can address both topics-
- Bought an electric cargo bike in August, there's a brand that's far far cheaper than all the others I've looked at, Rad Bikes, and it seems pretty reliable so far. Cargo bike is $1799, regular models (folding, standard, step-through, or fat tire) are $1699. They used to be $200 less but they raised the price last month blaming Trump's China tariffs. I've ridden it 150 miles so far (work is 6.5 miles each way) and it's really great, assist is either throttle or 5 levels of pedal assist. The other thing is for that price it comes with all the accessories you'd might spend hundreds more on with other bikes- fenders, headlight, tail light, control panel, bell, running boards. I get a $50 referral bonus so let me know if you do decide to buy one and I'll give you a link.
- Bought a new car in July. Our 13-year old car needed repairs far in excess of its value. We're not in the same market as you since we needed a 7-8 seater but comparing new/used and hybrid/regular we decided to go with a new non-hybrid. There are fewer hybrid options in that class, but even so the price difference for the hybrid 3-row SUV was way higher and not worth the premium for maybe 8mpg improvement. Prices of 1-3 year old used cars were also not as much of a discount as I expected- max 25% off price of a new. When we bought our first minivan in 2005 they said they were working on a hybrid model and they still don't have one, so maybe there just isn't demand in that class of car, but it makes me feel like technology isn't advancing as fast as it feels like it should. The thing that does advance is accessories- built-in chargers, backup camera and radar, general control panel capabilities- which also made a used one less attractive given the not so great savings.

On the question of "unionmade car": Does that restrict it to US carmakers? German workers seem to be in a good place politically, even if Korean and Japanese carmakers aren't as good.

Cars for the US market are made in the US (well or Mexico), not made in Germany and shipped to the US. So the question is about whether their US-based workers are unionized. Volkswagen came close to being the only unionized foreign automaker, but it didn't work out.

Nope, doesn't have to be a U.S. company, but most of the cars sold in the U.S. are built here or in Mexico. I could check on specific models, but shipping a car from Europe isn't doing the environment any favors either. Sigh.

Pwned on refresh. I think there are still some cars that get shipped here, but mostly luxury stuff.

"it didn't work out"

Hey Moby, there's some hyperbole for you, understatement-wise.

37.last: I know nothing about it beyond idleness curiosity, but the upcoming VW electric microbus has gotten good press -- https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/reviews/2022-volkswagen-i-d-buzz-preview/

"Idleness" s/b "idle".

29: I meant cumulative costs over a year, like comparing 20,000 miles with a hybrid to 19,000 with a full electric plus two week-long car rentals for the remaining thousand.

2: I've lived in Berlin the last six years. There's all kinds of great stuff here, it really depends on what you like. So what do you like?

Lots of Cold War history stuff, obviously. World-class art collections, even if the Pergamon Museum is in the midst of what I think is a decade-long refit. Classical music in a big way. Jazz, electronica, etc., though I am less familiar with those. Gourmet restaurants, a vast array ethnic places of all prices and fanciness levels (although the Caribbean place I wanted to try in Schöneberg seems to have evaporated, and stay away from Mexican food in Germany), even good solid German places. Potsdam has the UNESCO-listed palaces, the villa that hosted the post-WWII settlement conference, a weird Russian village, an even weirder thing called the Belvedere on the Pfingstberg. The building Westerners used to have to go through to get into East Berlin has been turned into a (free!) museum about crossing that border. You can walk up a hill in Grunewald to the abandoned former listening post and see what remains of the radar domes and so on.

Anyway, there's tons of everything. Tell me a bit more about what you like, and I can be more specific!

I think used cars are better for the environment, but buying a new car leverages your input.

Someone will buy that used car; whether you buy it or not just marginally changes the price the seller can get.

But as a new car buying, you can tell the car manufacturer to turn the steel and plastic into either a very efficient car, or a very inefficient car (read: truck).

And my impression is similar to 4, that used cars are not longer a great relative value compared to buying new. Though the last time I needed to buy a car was around 2011 so maybe this is switching back.

Those Faradays look SUPER spiffy.

On the general subject of energy efficiency, I'm struggling with complete demoralization, because it seems like the bitcoin thing has obliterated all the efforts of ordinary people to conserve. I'm overreacting, right?

Nope. That's true as far as I can see.

48: well, think of it this way: your individual conservation efforts are doing as much good now as they would have done in the absence of bitcoin. Just because Hurricane Florence is about to strike doesn't mean you can give up on your long-running habit of not murdering random people in North Carolina.

Maybe we should ban analogies.

Also, don't assume about my habits.

Last I heard--possibly out of date--bitcoin (or maybe crypto-currency in general?) uses about as much energy as Denmark. So as long as you ratio of energy conservation to total use is more than the ratio of Denmark's usage to that of the world, you plus your per capita share in bitcoin-related waste is still coming out ahead. (Or, what ajay said, but if you need a goal to shoot for..)

Other positive spins:

It's fairly likely a blip anyway, both because of the crash in crypto prices and because hopefully the crypto world will move away from proof of work in the medium to long term. With any luck, crypto (dirty) energy usage has already peaked.

On the flipside, even if crypto energy-usage continues to increase, the fact that energy and cooling costs are key economic inputs is driving uptake in and ultimately innovation in renewable energy.

I'm thinking of asking my state legislators to add bitcoin to the list of products that require carbon permits.

On used cars, I think the price sees less dropoff these days precisely because they last longer and are more reliable. So it should be more possible to buy a car with two or three years of use and expect to keep it for quite a while.

Cash For Clunkers was blamed for an increase in used car prices, but that was so long ago that I wouldn't expect it to much affect prices now.

I assuage my guilt over driving a IC engine with the fact that electric here is almost 100% coal

EV is pretty much always less polluting than IC, even if you are charging it with coal-fired electricity, because a generator is so much more efficient than an IC engine; I think the only exception is India where the coal-fired generator fleet is so amazingly filthy that IC actually looks good by comparison.

57: I thought transmission losses were pretty severe.

I mean, in practice, I'm driving a 14-y.o. car, and the carbon savings of not having replaced it outweigh any plausible fuel savings, esp. since we drive ~8k mi./yr.

37.2: I thought the Pacifica hybrid was a pretty good option. Or does it not seat enough?

Transmission losses are in the 10% range unless your electric is coming from the other side of the continent (which it isn't.). I think coal plant electric and ICE gasoline end up putting out similar amounts of carbon. But the one is closer to the end goal of renewable & battery car system.

Lots more information on this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe

And the factor missing is that your EV is going to get cleaner over the years without you having to do anything, as the grid gradually uses more renewables and less coal. Your IC car is going to get (slightly) dirtier over the years because the engine will become less efficient as it gets older.

58: I drive similar amounts to you and I have used the same reasoning to justify not getting a new car, but I had once priced out that the carbon cost of making a new electric (was probably specifically looking at a Tesla) is around 2-4 years of driving with an internal combustion engine. I'll see if I can replicate, or find better numbers...

I also suspect that the "used cars are better for the environment" model is flawed because it sets up a false choice. It's assuming that you have two options:
1) Buy a new car; which is equivalent to ordering a new car to be built for you that would not otherwise be built.
2) Buy a used car from someone else.

And in that sense, you can see how a used car might be the better option. But what happens if we look at the full life cycle? Let's say that new cars are bought, kept for ten years, sold second-hand, kept for another ten years by their second owner, and then scrapped. So if you buy a new car, you're making it possible for someone else to _not_ buy a new car in ten years; if you buy a used car, you'll have to scrap it.

You can sell used cars even if they were used when you bought them. I've seen it done.

True - I was trying to set up a really simplified model.

Would you like to buy a used Camry?

Hrm. There are 5.5 pounds ~= 2.5 kg of carbon per gallon of gasoline. I drive 10k miles per year, and my car is old and awful and probably averages 25mpg. So that's 10k m/y * (1/25 gal/m) * (2.5 kg carbon/gal) = 1 metric ton carbon/year. This report from a nominally independent Swedish environmental institute says that battery production produces 150-200 kg CO2 / kWh. (Note CO2, not carbon; 1 kg CO2 = 0.273 kg carbon). The standard Tesla Model 3 battery is 50kWh, which gives us 50kWh * 175 kgCO2 /kwH * 0.273 kg carbon/CO2 = 2.4 metric tons carbon. So for the batteries alone that's 2.4 years of driving my shitty old car. Not sure about the rest of the car--I focused on the batteries because I could find numbers, ironically pointed to from a global warming denier website.

On the other hand, batteries might need to be replaced after 8-10 years, which makes it less of a win.

I steal propane tanks from my neighbors' grills and bury them as carbon offsets.

But you'll inevitably have to replace your old awful car at some point in the future, and the longer you delay that decision the more gasoline you'll have burned in it.

The choice isn't just buy Tesla vs. keep driving old banger; it's buy Tesla now vs. keep driving old banger until 2023 (or whenever) and then buy something a bit better than a Tesla (because it'll have five more years of development in it).

Good point. There are some more confounding factors:

1) whether the manufacturing process will get so much better that it's worth waiting,

2) how close the ratio of CO produced approaches 1, given other things I didn't take into account: if I have to replace the battery every decade, if we consider the rest of the manufacturing process, if we consider any carbon in the electricity production process (high now, realistically; hopefully lower in a few years), etc.

3) the cost. Electric cars are currently either expensive, or moderately expensive but with range that doesn't fit my lifestyle. If I believe that carbon offsets work, they might be a more financially tenable way to reduce total footprint: This site charges $5/kilopound of CO2 ($40 / metric ton carbon); this site sells at $10/tonne CO2 ($36.60 / metric ton carbon). If those are legit--they don't double sell, they're putting carbon into biomass that is likely to stay out of the atmosphere for a long time, etc.--why wouldn't I prefer that method, given that it's so much cheaper?

In reality, we're leaning towards leasing some sort of hopefully-more-efficient modern car, probably a hybrid, for a few years just so the price point on a long-range electric can come down. But I haven't run all the numbers yet, and having installed a new radio a few days ago, I think we can still get some use out of the old banger.

Again with the metric tons- it's a megagram!
59- The Pacifica sucks. We looked at a highlander hybrid but like all the 3-row SUVs the third row is not really for everyday use. The salesman literally said if you're going to use the third row often don't buy this car. So we ended up with another minivan. Also we wanted AWD because we regretted not having it in our old car several times, so that limits you to basically one model which I liked because I hate making decisions. This is also why I like shopping at Costco because if I want multigrain bread or cheddar cheese or jelly there is only one option for each.

||
JFK: watch/no watch?
|>

Spoiler Alert: He gets shot in Dallas.

Too long and not worth it.

"$5/kilopound"

AAAUUUUGGGHHH.

75 is right. Also I think you're too fact-based to enjoy that kind of bs.

I mean, one doesn't watch Oliver Stone for documentary accuracy.

True. We have John Waters for that.

76: I meant $5 per half-short ton, which comes out reasonably when you consider how many rod-acres are involved.

Ok, no JFK. Good night.

LaGuardia is easier.

I gave up on Stone after Natural Born Killers, which pissed me off for its simultaneous pretentiousness and exploitative nature.

I saw that movie, then went to Meijer. I've never been able to go to Meijer since.

Is there good Oliver Stone? Platoon? I haven't seen it.

85: Wall Street.

86: Oh, yeah. I did see that. Not that I remember much.

I saw platoon. In the theater. When I was eight. AIHMHB. My parents were very apologetic afterwards.

I think I mentioned this before, but my dad took my mom to see Clerks with neither of them knowing what it was about. Mom made them leave at the (Spoiler Alert) part where the one guy's girlfriend had sex with the dead guy.

Who can blame them for expecting a sequel to The Paper Chase?

I just bought a dealer certified used car, and can verify that prices don't drop much. We got a 2014 Mazda with 11K miles on it, and plan on driving it for at least 10-15 years. We paid about 70% of what the new version would cost, though it came with some extra bells and whistles added by the dealer.

Reporting from a different socioeconomic class, my brother just bought a Tesla X and an island. Boat/plane rides to his island likely offset any carbon savings from his Tesla.

Sounds like a good buy on the Mazda---that is very low mileage.

Is it pronounced "Tesla ecks" or "Tesla ten?"

I had the same question about Pius X.

92

Thanks! It was our first foray into car buying, and we were nervous about making a bad choice.

It's pronounced ecks, and is the Tesla version of an SUV.

I once referred to King Christian X of Denmark as "Christian Ecks" when I was about 9-10. My parents cracked up and I had no idea what was so funny.

Then they loaned you a copy of The Autobiography of Malcolm the Tenth.

Which mazda ? I have an 06 3, engine is a pretty direct descendant of the mazda engine that was in my 91 escort, that engine was still fine at 145k. Fuel injection sputters occasionally in wet weather on both cars above 100k, but runs fine.

92. Like Racer X possibly.

So looking at the pictures of the Tesla X, does "mid-sized crossover utility vehicle" just mean "slightly bulgier sedan" now?

I think the crossover has a higher ground clearance and the more upright seating position so loved by current consumers.

97

It's a Mazda 3 Hatchback, which seems like just the size we wanted. We also test drove the Subaru Impreza which we liked because of 4WD, but the Mazda definitely drove nicer and realistically our lifestyle doesn't involve much need for 4WD.

99

Also it has "double hinged falcon doors"

90: My dad just wanted to see what the campus film series had and the title seemed innocuous.

Perhaps switching to an electric house instead of gas would also be a good investment today. Multiple houses in nearby city randomly exploding, so many the fire departments from the whole region can't fight them all, 51000 buildings ordered to evacuate. Possible causes suggested are replacement workers accidentally hooking up high pressure transmission gas line to low pressure municipal feed (union workers have been locked out since earlier this summer) or, of course, The Russians (some random news story earlier this year suggested hackers could target infrastructure like gas supply)

National Grid is the one that's locked out, though, and the area where the fires are is served by Columbia Gas. Is there some less-obvious connection between them?

Nation Gird would be a good name for a loin cloth conglomerate.

You're right, must be the Russians.

70+ structure fires, power cut to city to prevent spark ignitions so non-gas houses told to evacuate too.

Has this kind of thing every happened before? I know gas lines blow up, but over such an area?

A similar mistake was made in another town in 2005 but it only destroyed one building.

Huh. Same state.

One funny thing to one out of it is the state police tweeted (then deleted) a screenshot of their browser window including their bookmarks. Included websites of a number of liberal organizations as well as a facial recognition software company.

100. That's what I drive, bike can fit in back. Stick?

110: Any eclectic web magazines?

I don't think it was the Russians, but if the Russians *were* going to mount a kinetic cyber attack on us, this is how it would happen, since we did the same thing to them in 82 and they're petty sons of bitches.

You blew up pipelines in Siberia, not houses, as I recall.

Yes, but it was a very big explosion indeed, and I'm not sure how much control we had over where exactly the explosion occurred. Of course, Russia is much more Siberia than house, so the odds were in our favor.

113: interestingly, this may not be accurate: there's only one account of it, and others in a position to know have said that the Soviets didn't actually use software to control their gas pipelines in 1982.

Bayesian statistics tell us that it is unlikely to be a Russian plot and more likely to be a guy who was rushing to get home so he can sit in his Mancave and watch videos of the Patriots cheating.

Bayes was ahead of his time.

116: Yes. I checked the reference for the first time and it goes to a published CIA study, which I know nothing about, but on the face if it makes the story more plausible.
The pipeline in question was a new one, from Siberia to Europe, of unprecedented length and difficulty. It was a national level project, like the BAM*. That suggests that this pipeline may have needed software, even if that wasn't standard at the time.
*I read that in a different book, not about CIA.

The CIA study would be the Farewell Dossier one? There's this https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/96unclass/farewell.htm which says that they definitely sent the Soviets sabotaged technology, including turbines for a gas line (but not software) and doesn't mention the explosion. But then they would say that, wouldn't they.

120: Yes.

Apparently the software claims come out a 2004 memoir; the CIA paper is from 1996. It could all be BS of course, but why bother publishing such a thing in 1996? Short meta-discussion.

29: I meant cumulative costs over a year, like comparing 20,000 miles with a hybrid to 19,000 with a full electric plus two week-long car rentals for the remaining thousand.

Right, but the reality of my driving habits is that I would be using electric-only with the hybrid most of the time, so I'd only need to buy gas for one or 2 longer trips a year.

The reality of my driving is that I can't really parallel park unless there's enough space for two cars.

Never mind, nor can anybody else.

I've seen people do it, but I assume they all have a computer assist.

I can't really parallel park

There's curbside street parking right outside my window at work, so I see a lot of parallel parking attempts. A surprising number of people just barrel straight in, drive their right front wheel up onto the curb, then back down again as they straighten out into the space. It's an effective technique, but the driving-on-the-sidewalk part seems bad.

People just park on the sidewalk here if there's a no parking sign. I'm not a lawyer, but I think the legal issue is that if you break two laws at once, you can't be cited.

I can't do much, but parallel parking is a thing I can very usually do right.

On the internet, nobody knows you've dented the bumper of a Civic.

We recently bought a Toyota CHR hybrid and love it - not a plug in, but the mileage is fantastic and the car has basically everything I could ever want. It also looks slightly evil. (Still need a name for her.)

(The above comment brought to you by someone who doesn't properly read the OP's and missed the part about unionmade.)

Pinkerton is a fine name for a car.

How about Norris-LaGuadria?

Right, but the reality of my driving habits is that I would be using electric-only with the hybrid most of the time, so I'd only need to buy gas for one or 2 longer trips a year.

Oh, I see. I was thinking of a conventional hybrid.

parallel park

We were in Brooklyn for a few days this part week and I did get to witness one of the best pullouts from parallel parking I have ever seen. Right in front of where we were staying a car was parked with the cars in front and back of it touching its bumpers (both the car in front and car in question had bumper guards). The driver did push the car in front forward a couple of inches to start, and then managed to extricate with no further touching in a two to three back and forths with a small but appreciative audience looking on. (Then came three cars unsuccessfully trying to fill the space, and fourth slightly smaller one doing a nice job getting in, although ended a bit far from the curb.)

I am rube from the sticks.