Can I give him a fracture instead? Or maybe a face full of birdshot?
Also: you forgot Scotland! They're a crucial member of the Coalition of the Willingussies.
I admit I don't understand this post. Dick Cheney should be worried because he could end up like the Dina agents? Who also operated outside of Chile? Or did you mean to link and excerpt a different article about human rights abuses by the Mexican army and the loss of USian moral authority thanks to Cheney?
3: I was going for a conflation Chile with Mexico (for comedic effect, you see), along with a supposition that Cheney would see this sort of thing as cowardice in the face of The Enemy (be it terrorism or communism or whatever). Perhaps I overreached and/or shouldn't post before coffee happens.
I see that M/tch seems to have gotten the joke, which means he must have been reading Standpipe's other blog, where I cross-posted this comment.
Would Cheney have really used an accent when writing "Mexico"? I call shenanigans.
5: That was so you'd say it in your head like "MEH-hee-ko" for maximum Scary Furriner effect. Do I have to explain everything for you people?
4: I was going for a conflation Chile with Mexico
You'd be surprised, Stanley, they're all individual countries down there. </Reagan> (since we're splainin')
Perhaps I overreached and/or shouldn't post before coffee happens.
Nah.
Since they're rounding up people, can we send them Kissinger?
I've heard there's an awful lot of coffee in Brazil.
10: And how about Milton Friedman's moldering corpse?
IN ANY EVENT, I really did think the issuing of warrants was an interesting development for Chileans (who have seemed for the most part reluctant to do much accounting for what happened during the Pinochet years), and it reminded me of the recent dust-up over the Justice Department's investigation of detainee interrogations by the CIA.
But does this example give the US any hope of meting out justice for its own atrocities?
9: I got it, Stanley.
Teo's a student at the university.
That was so you'd say it in your head like "MEH-hee-ko" for maximum Scary Furriner effect. Do I have to explain everything for you people?
Maybe you should have written "Now he's got to think about, like, MEH-hee-ko, too?" Then we would have all thought you were describing some sort of Pokemon card and everything would be clear.
describing some sort of Pokemon card
I LOOOOOOVE MUDKIPS.
18: You forgot to put "Discuss." on the end of that statement. That's why the thread died.
re: 2
Heh, indeed. The particularly amusing part being what actually happened the last time someone tried a terrorist attack on Scottish soil.
what actually happened the last time someone tried a terrorist attack on Scottish soil.
You then found five dollars pounds?
Seriously though, I'm not sure what you're referring to. What did happen?
20: Yeah, William Wallace was not treated with clemency.
re: 21
Several different passers-by beat the shit out of the would-be terrorists, while they were on fire. Excellent wiki quote:
Another man exited the car and ran into the terminal building while he was on fire and began writhing on the ground, before being kicked in his burning testicles by a member of the public...
23: Wow. I reckon a Glasgow kiss isn't recommended in such a contingency, however.
re: 24
If I recall from the news reports at the time, at least three different members of the public intervened along with a couple of cops, and the various terrorists had the shit knocked out of them, before being arrested.
The news reports at the time had a certain macabre humour, with various people saying, 'so I saw him exit the vehicle, and rather than let him get away I punched him in the face. The chap was on fire at the time ...' etc.
Surprisingly, the phrase "kicked in his burning testicles" only got one hit on Google.
Also worth noting -- the kicker was awarded the Queen's Gallantry Medal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smeaton_(baggage_handler)
Surprisingly, "kicked in his burning testicles" only got one hit on Google.
More surprisingly, not in reference to this.
27: Ouch! I knew 26 was apostropher bait.
(who have seemed for the most part reluctant to do much accounting for what happened during the Pinochet years)
This isn't really true, is it?
29: Depends on which Chileans you speak to, I guess. Some thought that commission went way too far; others, not nearly far enough. A third group—possibly a majority?— seems to do a lot of hand-waving and "let's just move on".
25: This rather puts me off the Scots, frankly. It looks as though the "terrorists" managed to damage some doors, and while intent is worth considering, I'm not sure that I like it when members of the random public decide to beat people up for terrorism. Although it seems to have been a spectacularly silly attempt.
(As you probably recall, I have friends going to trial who were initially charged with terrorism and thus--although my friends didn't set anything at all on fire and after six months of intense lobbying are now facing only some trumped-up conspiracy charges for some very general work planning a large protest--I am wary of vigilante anti-terrorist justice.)
31: First, I don't think it's necessarily anything particular to Scots. Second, the guys had just rammed a car full of combustible shit into an area full of people. If I had just seen someone try to set a bunch of random people on fire, I hope you'd forgive me if I helped capture the assailants. In flagrante is quite different from "some very general work planning a large protest".
What does the post have to do with Mexico?
33: It's an obscure Pokemon reference, Ned.
re: 31
You are being ridiculous. They crashed a burning car into a major airport. There was a very real possibility that they planned further damage, or had explosives, etc.* The cops tackled them, and some bystanders got involved.
I think your one track 'protest' mind is blinding you to the reality of the situation here. These _were_ terrorists, no scare quotes. The fact that they were shit at it is something to be grateful for, but they weren't some kids planning a march.
* well, they did have explosives of a kind, they just didn't have a realistic method of detonation.
I heard Lileks hates all things Mexi-.
36: I don't like vigilante justice. Not even when people are unpleasant, not even when people are guilty. Not even in upsetting situations. I think there's a lot of slippage between "I'm completely justified in beating the shit out of this [burning] person" and "I feel like I'm completely justified in beating the shit out of this person". I don't think that the average person makes an emotional distinction; most people enjoy it just as much whether it's someone who's really guilty or someone who they just allow themselves to believe is a terrorist. I believe that lot of people enjoy violence. (I enjoy violence, both rhetorical and the old put-the-boot-in; that's why I try to stay away from most violent occasions. I mean, it's upsetting too, but the exhilaration is compelling.)
As far as my disappointment in the Scots goes, that's only because I was looking for a new nation to idealize and had been reading some really interesting stuff about Glasgow. Scotland, my shattered utopia!
38: But from 27 you might think the guy was kicking his testicles just to put out the fire.
And even if not, once your testicles are on fire, how much worse can it get if someone starts kicking them?
That's something I hope I never have the opportunity to find out about.
38: Well, it' an international airport, so there's always the chance that the vigilantes weren't from Scotland.
I think there's a strong distinction between using violence in the moment, to stop and dissuade someone in the act of attempting to kill lots of people, even if it's not well-calculated as the minimum violence necessary for that purpose, and after-the-fact 'vigilante justice'. The latter, I strongly disapprove of. The former, which seems to be a better description of how the Scots bystanders treated the terrorists who crashed a burning car into the Glasgow airport in the course of apprehending them, doesn't bother me at all.
38: But also, it's unclear to me how much this particular case was actual vigilante justice versus just helping capture the suspects. I mean, if citizens don't step up and take responsibility for subdueing shitheads trying to set a bunch of random people on fire, how are we ever going to make it to a post-police world?
Hm, I thought there would have been lots of rhetorical violence against my semi-indefensible position by now. I suppose I've achieved a kind of Minne "don't bother arguing on abstract political topics" status.
It just seems excessive to kick someone in the balls then they're already on fire, you know. The excess is jouissance, right?
Or else I was hoping that there'd be more active boosting of Scotland and/or Glasgow. Come on, here I am planning to save up to visit Glasgow if my potential job plans work out (of which more if they work out).
43: Glasgow is great. As is Edinburgh. Hope your job plans work out.
Also, if it's any consolation, I was sort of baiting you in 42 as our token anarchist to explain how you reconcile hating people's justice and cops at the same time.
Kicking someone in the balls when they are on fire probably adds less pain to the world than kicking someone in the balls when they are not on fire.
"I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire" has now been changed to "I'd kick him in the balls, unless they were on fire, of course".
Frowner, I may come closer to your general outlook than a lot of people here, or at least used to when I was more able to do anything about it, but no, no, no.
If I had watched somebody calmly trying to set fire to a crowded building I would NOT be thinking with my forebrain. I would be so incoherently angry that I would happily kick them in the balls, smack them in the teeth with a handy piece of 4x2 or anything that came to hand. Because I would be seeing fucking red.
You wouldn't be? Really?
43: Eh, I think it's more a situation where everyone agrees with you about vigilante justice generally, so no argument, and disagreement is about how strongly one should disapprove of overkill (and to what extent we can be sure that overkill happened) in a situation like Glasgow Airport, where some degree of violence was appropriate, which is the sort of nuanced factual argument where argument seems pointless.
I mean, if we were talking about the Glasgow Airport bystanders kicking a helpless man to death, I'd disapprove strongly.
I don't know anything boostery to say about Scotland, though. I'm sure it's lovely, I just don't have any associations with it beyond tartan, oatmeal, whisky and smoked salmon. And heroin addicts.
47: Perhaps she's just shocked that a people so famously peaceable as the Scots would engage in such unruly behaviour.
48 crossed with 47, which I agree with. There's a point at which you're responsible for stopping seeing red and regaining control over what you're doing, but I don't have the sense that that line was crossed.
48: You forgot shortbread! And haggis! And bagpipes! And thriftyness! And tape!!
And many other essential components of the Coalition of the Scottish.
For shame, LB.
Also golf and Bonnie Prince Charlie. All right, I have a rich, nuanced picture of Scotland, held together by tape.
And speaking of injuries to balls, let's not forget Braveheart and FREEEEEEDOOOOM!!!!
Also,
Come on, here I am planning to save up to visit Glasgow if my potential job plans work out (of which more if they work out).
Excellent -- good luck with them!
Also, being on fire might make some of the more traditional methods of restraining a suspect problematic. (You grab his arms. I'll go over there and warn people.)
Why would you want to idolize nations?
The Reformation, deep fried sausage with hardboiled egg inside, and them little black terrier dogs.
Oh, and both lochs and firths. Heather. Tarmac. Steamship engineers and steam engines generally. Argyle socks.
Fantastic concentration of great restaurants (Glasgow, Edinburgh); Eye watering scenery carved out of solid granite by the ice age; four or five (depends how you count) ancient universities for a population that was probably
I guess now ttaM will have a very precise sense of exactly how much the Americans here know about Scotland. For whatever that's worth.
Shit. ... probably less than 1m when they were founded...
As will the other Scottish commenters, of course. But ttaM's the most prolific and engaged.
Scotland is lovely, Frowner, and Glasgow was more fun than Edinburgh in my experience. If you get to work there then I'm going to be so jealous that my balls will catch on fire and kick themselves.
Groundskeeper Willie!
IRN BRU!
Thistles!
Picts! Viking raids! Heathered moors! Shaggy Highland cattle! SHEEEEEEEP!
Spray on waterproofing stuff in a can!
Competitive telephone pole tossing!
Head butts!
Butterscotch!
A SNAKE! A FOOKIN' SNAAAAKE!!!*
*RTFA, slp.
Eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog. (Well, I suppose none of those things are Scottish in isolation, but the combination is.)
Damned spots! That won't come out!!
83: But I already mentioned haggis, LB.
High roads! Low roads! Bonny bonny banks!!
People who journey to the center of the earth!!
Deep-fried Mars bars! (For the record: don't try it. Really.)
Edinburgh is a lovely city and I only wish I wasn't indoors working for most of the one week that I spent there. Delicious Indian food. Delicious everything, really. Gorgeous city views from the hills. People with sexy accents. (I also went to an indie rock show in Glasgow and learned that indie rock shows in Scotland are precisely isomorphic to those in the U.S.) Oh, and they have great city buses and convenient trains.
IRN BRU!
Definitely an acquired taste IMO, and responsible for some of the greatest poster advertising ever.
86: High roads! Low roads!
May I submit that the strong implication of the song is that neither the high nor the low road is in Scotland, but are instead both roads outside of Scotland and leading thereto? Therefore, disqualified.
Also, I hope the potential job works out, Frowner!
walking long distances only to fall down at the doorstep of one's beloved. haver.
Boarding schools where a professor can kill the headmaster and become, briefly, headmaster himself before being killed by a guy who can't be killed but is killed by a boy who was also killed, but not really.
Yes, the word "haver", definitely.
91: Surely the roads don't suddenly all become middling right as they cross the Scottish borders?
I would post 500 comments, and I would post 500 more.
96: I'm an expert on seldom read novels like that.
Logarithms! Terrible romance novels!
Caber tossing! Freeballing under kilts!
The essential ingredients for making a Rusty Nail!
(surprised LB didn't get that one)
(The latter are not, strictly, Scotland's fault. But good lord there are a lot of them. Tartans must rip more satisfyingly than bodices, or something.)
Tartans must rip more satisfyingly than bodices
It's the fine quality of the wool.
Which comes from sheep, which goes back to romance.
I thought that sort of romance belonged to Wales, not Scotland.
There are other Scottish commenters? I thought it turned out they all lived in New Zealand.
Neeps!
Tatties!
Inspector Rebus!
Shallow graves!
Spotted trains!
Hogmanay!
117: They go together like, um, bucklers and claymores?
Also: raincoats!
And Scotch ale!
Plus old acquaintance and cups of kindness!
There are other Scottish commenters? I thought it turned out they all lived in New Zealand.
I'm not sure any of them actually live in Scotland, but I think there are at least a couple in England in addition to ttaM.
Ajay. Although he's another southern exile like me, I think.
Also, if it's any consolation, I was sort of baiting you in 42 as our token anarchist to explain how you reconcile hating people's justice and cops at the same time.
At last, work has ebbed for the day!
I was part of a people's tribunal last Sunday and let me tell you, although setting the miscreant on fire and then kicking him in the balls would have been very satisfying we ended up coming to a peaceful and so far adequate resolution. (It was a non-trivial matter but did not involve physical violence, sexual assault or theft; more than that I am not at liberty to say! Anarchist secrets, you know.)
The people's justice, properly carried out, is really boring and involves facilitation. People think anarchists are fun but we're not.
We did make you a complete list of pleasing features of Scotland. I believe it's exhaustive.
125: I wasn't going to say nothing...
I don't know nothin' 'bout funnin' no anarchists.
Lots of people think anarchists are fun. I used to think anarchists were fun back when I considered myself a marxist, although almost anyone is fun compared to academic marxists. But then I don't like fun very much.
To clarify an earlier point, the job possibility would minimally involve a little more money (hence being able to save for something fun) and maximally involve going to England for a conference (possible, not guaranteed by any means) and thus being able to save up to travel around. The job thing isn't guaranteed either, sadly. It's a little bit more than a wish but a lot less than a certainty. And alas, it does not involve living in Scotland.
I don't think ttaM has thanked you properly for that list. He must be too overcome to find the right words.
126: It's a beautiful list! Deep-fried wee sleekit beasties in shallow graves--I can hardly wait. And to think I'd just been reading up a bit on Glasgow architecture and radical activism there generally and might have missed out on all the cutty sarks. I was also unaware of the steamship engineer connection.
130: He totally thanked us! I mean, you may be too insensitive to perceive the depths of gratitude revealed by the words "David Fucking Hume", but not everyone is so blind to expressions of heartfelt emotion.
I was also unaware of the steamship engineer connection.
Scotty is merely the culmination of a long literary (and I suppose probably real-life) tradition.
That's right, we forgot to mention that Scotland is associated with gruffness.
The finest cashmere in the world! Pewter ornaments! Hip flasks, at least according to Google!
125,129 must not have seen Lebowski
People think anarchists are fun?
Gaelic! Colman's mustard! The Mitford sisters! The Blarney Stone! The changing of the guard!
Has anyone mentioned TV or phones, yet?
Thanks for the list!
re: 131
Glasgow has some pretty great architecture. It's a fantastic city. I'm not from there but love it with the zeal of a true convert. I slightly regret not moving back a year or so back when there might have been an opportunity to do so. I've not lived there for nearly 10 years now, but when I last lived there I don't think there were many places that could challenge it for quality of life while on a budget.
The Orkneys! The oldest known interior plumbing, in a region now used to test wind turbines to destruction! (Not coincidentally co-incidental.)
Plumbing is the wrong word, though. Oh! Carnivorous sheep! Or maybe those were in the Falklands.
Croissants! The Tour d'Eiffel! Carla Bruni!
Emigrating to sunnier climes at the drop of a hat!
(Scotland: making Panamanian jungle look hospitable.)
Speaking of non-mainstream political ideologies, I wonder if somebody (Frowner?) could give me some insight into what I saw this past Sunday afternoon. Two kids, undergrad age, were taking and tasting food from the trash. This was near the universities. Just to be clear, this wasn't dumpster diving in the sense that it is usually used. They were eating from tossed take-out containers and drinking from disposable soda cups that had been tossed. The normal reason I'd give for this, being very poor and hungry, doesn't seem applicable. These kids (boy and a girl) were fit, clean, well-dressed, and carrying what appeared to be hundreds of dollars of equipment (packs, tent) that looked barely used. Also, they didn't look disgusted with the food. Anyway, I couldn't place the behavior. I suppose they could have been that hungry and broke, but I'm wondering if this isn't some kind of ecology or political thing.
I guess I'd always thought of freegans as going for food that had been trashed from a store and was still in a bag or something, not a sandwich that been gnawed on.
It doesn't seem to be the most coherent movement out there.
I don't know as freeganism is a movement the way veganism is--no one pro-actively describes themself as a freegan. It's more of a "hey man, I've got this burrito I don't want, but it has meat in it." "Yeah, I'll take it, I'm a freegan". It's more of an explanation for eating meat in subcultures where meat-eating is frowned on.
The kids? Probably traveling kids from good families who are on the fringes of the hippie-punk-crusty scene. They'd been reading Evasion and were off to hop a train or something.
I guess I'm trying to decide if I should have offered to buy them a sandwich or something.
Well, they were right in front of the church.
no one pro-actively describes themself as a freegan
Actually, I've met some who do. Also see, for example, this site.
127: [re: anarchists] 125,129 must not have seen Lebowski.
"Anarchists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of Nihilism, Dude, at least it's an ethos actually in the movie."
159. Anything but. (2 Nazis, 1 Stalinist, 1 Social Democrat, 1 Duchess, 1 who had the sense to keep out of the limelight, probably a Tory)
I just found this out yesterday:
161: Pretty interesting, although the condor thing does not appear to have been as bad as claimed, The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, stewards of the condor recovery effort, said any condors were likely only driven off; if they had died, there'd be a record. Dennis Ensign, a firefighter who worked the blaze 42 years ago, recalled no dead birds there.
I started a fire north of Fillmore, just to watch them fry.
