I like to eat sushi off of Glenn Beck's rock-hard abs.
Be careful of the sushi with the white hot center.
And crunchy sushi is probably best avoided too.
But anyway: what did you answer?
But anyway: what did you answer?
Of course I said yes. What do you take me for, some kind of relativist?
You see, this was around the same time I was scandalized by another acquaintance's comment to the effect that he didn't care for organized religion. Structure... of the universe... collapsing... !
So how long do we have to wait before declaring Minivet an ingrate?
I hear Minivet stuck his penis in some yogurt.
8: I just had a vision of the Eucharist being performed with Cap'n Crunch.
It wasn't that kind of gym, eb.
Crunches are one thing (several reps of things?), but it would probably be unethical for a spotter to ask weighty questions of someone benchpressing.
The title "Bridgeplate High" makes me automatically think "Sweet Valley High" for reasons unknown to me. Was Bridgeplate High like Sweet Valley High? Did she or he ask about absolute morality because they found your gym shorts relatively tempting?
For instance, "Was that a poor choice of words?"
Unlike you slacker deviationists, I actually have constraints on my time. Smooth, light, lactose-rich constraints.
Thanks, Standpipe!
16: You were really pushing it, Minivet. And you know what we do to ingrates around here.
I was scandalized by another acquaintance's comment to the effect that he didn't care for organized religion.
This reminds me of how I am currently feeling so alienated from organized religion that I'm seriously considering not going to High Holy Day services for the first time in my entire life. The question of whether to go is bothering me to a degree that surprises me.
Did she or he ask about absolute morality because they found your gym shorts relatively tempting?
Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Probably so, as I suspect I was wearing my two-tone neon Umbros.
Perhaps your gym shorts were absolutely tempting.
Orange post alert: Discrimination! To the ramparts!
I thought the frenulum was the best part.
Damn. Pwnd both time- and quality-wise.
I prefer smaller URLs to be honest. Clicking on a big URL is fun the first couple of times, but the novelty wears off.
the novelty wears off
You're clicking too hard.
I bet Standpipe could wear the novelty off a permalink.
A question for the medical types here: How big would a cock have to be in order for it to be impossible to get an erection without fainting?
['feeling a bit light headed right now']
30: Hmmm, I remember reading something about that in relation to henways once.
I say, my dear chap, what's a henway?
It's like a butfor, but with feathers.
30: At a rough estimate, bigger than the size of a pint glass. I'm not a medical type, but most people who donate blood give up about a pint at a time with no ill effects. Sure, an erection comes on more quickly than a full pint is drawn, but on the other hand in your scenario the blood isn't going anywhere, it's just getting taken out of circulation for a bit.
It varies by anus. Arctangent is a popular one.
mine's logarithmic. we should get heebie in on this.
37: Log Rhythm is the key to anal function
whew! I'm back. Can't say much for the harmonizing -- I detected some straining -- but you can sure dance to it.
Where the hell is everybody?
Need a new topic? Okay, then. Kittens: cuton-emitting packages of preciousness, or glorified rats? Discuss.
Note that there is a correct answer, and this quiz accounts for 100 percent of your grade.
cuton allergen-emitting packages of preciousness
Always pick C.
rats emitting a strong psychoactive cutonic gas?
The real question is: why are cats so delectable? Would rats taste as good? And what makes them so flammable?
Why do you feel so alienated, teofilo?
teo, I've always given you good advice. I think you should go to the services, especially if you're feeling atheistic, because being insincere is what adulthood is about, and you'd better get used to it, stat.
Teo, is it possible that going to services in a new community might make it nice in a new way? I'm not saying it will, but you're very close to some of the greatest Jewish communities in the country, and, from what I'm told, we have some kick-ass holiday services. (Also, the chicks here are seriously hott.)
Where the hell is everybody?
Laboring under the evil forces of legal paperwork. I can't begin to understand the lawyers in the crowd who work with this stuff on a daily basis.
And it's cuton-emitters, of course. I have an entire mini photo album of my old cat's litter as it matured from closed eyes to figuring out how to climb up your pants leg; mere acquaintances found reason to stop by for a visit, that's how drenched in goodness they were, those guys.
Which leads to: God, I was such a virgin, involved in a fair amount of theater in high school and a bit into college -- by then just stage managing and running sound. Somehow some small group of us managed to put on an outdoor production of The Bacchae, complete with chorus delivered in Greek. It must have been awful, but there were classicists consulting, so maybe not.
In high school it was the annual musical, just an alto in the chorus. Good times.
I read your post about feeling alienated, and I totally understand, but it's just not what I see in the communities here. Yes, Jewish parents hope their kids marry Jewish partners. But that "kidnapping" thing would be really unacceptable, even among some of the Orthodox I know here.
Oops, 51 without having previewed. Teo may be losing his religion, and here I'm babbling.
Scratch 48. Found the relevant blog entry.
54: Indeed. And it's the first time it's occurred to me that we might perhaps be confusing things in what we call a cat's litter.
confusing things
yeah, no kidding. I've got it all over my back porch after my last barbeque went so horribly awry.
57: Amazing image. I suggest a power hose.
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I'd just like you all to know that SEK e-mailed me back (much earlier, this afternoon - I was a teeny bit steamed up so I went away from the computer) and said "Everything's cool now! ...Don't close that thread on account of me."
So all of you overly-cautious fretters can take that, and feel free to shrug your shoulders, and say "Well, that turned out ok," and then we shouldn't give it another thought.
|>
5: But anyway: what did you answer?
Of course I said yes. What do you take me for, some kind of relativist?
This is painful. I found a newspaper clipping from high-school era recently in which I was quoted as saying something about Reagan along the lines of: 'People are giving him a hard time because they think he's a conservative, but he's actually trying to be a liberal.'
What the hell was I talking about? Nascent (very) political awareness, I can only console myself; I was a slow developer. I probably was mispronouncing "Camus" around that time as well, and nobody told me.
60: French names don't count.
It counted when someone finally told me.
59: But wouldn't it be much better to have a 900-comment meta-thread about whether the concerns were appropriate given the state of knowledge when it went up?
You people are not doing well on this quiz, and the clock is ticking. Here's a hint: that thing that kittens do, walking all over your keyboard and batting at the screen to get the cursor. That's cute precisely once. I'd try the power hose, but it's my keyboard and desk and everything.
Camas, like the town in Washington (or the tuberous plant consumed by the PNW Indians).
Hissing at cats generally succeeds in getting them to STOP DOING THAT.
For at least 30 seconds.
Albert Camus, Walter Benjamin, and Vincent van Gogh walked into a saloon...
And the bartender says "what is this, some kind of joke?"
66: Or in the case of the French novelist, Death Camas.
Imagine my embarrassment when I told Goldie Hawn how much I liked her work in Prevatay Benyameen.
... Wolfgang Goethe, Ludwig Wittgenstein, and Charles Peirce turned to them and said ...
Really, it's on the tip of my tongue.
Teo, is it possible that going to services in a new community might make it nice in a new way? I'm not saying it will, but you're very close to some of the greatest Jewish communities in the country, and, from what I'm told, we have some kick-ass holiday services.
It might, yeah, but I'm not particularly optimistic. And I'm in one of the greatest (at least proportionally) Jewish communities in the country; there's a synagogue literally across the street from my apartment. If I do go, though, I think it'll probably be to the Hillel services, for one thing because I know I can just show up, while regular congregations often require tickets. Also, the Conservative synagogue nearest to me is undergoing renovations, so I don't know what they're doing about the holidays, and all the other synagogues in town are Orthodox.
Ultimately this is something I really have to decide for myself, of course, and I'm still really unsure what I'm going to do.
Also, Gay Couple Has Banal Sex.
Ultimately this is something I really have to decide for myself.
I think this is really it, especially because nobody else can imagine how you will feel about this in the future. It's possible this could feel like a hiatus, and at some future point it feels like a welcome renewal to go back. It's also possible that a future you could look back and think it was in the grand scheme of things a shame that you did not continue even in the face of alienation. Regardless, it's just doesn't seem like something that other people are likely to be good at predicting for you.
Yeah, I'm not really expecting other people's input to make much difference. But if anyone has anything to say on the subject, I'd be interested to hear it.
OT query:
Prompted by my reading of 1491, I'm curious if anyone knows of any alternate history novels (along the lines of Kim Stanley Robinson's The Years of Rice and Salt) that consider how the Americas would have developed if say, the Europeans had never made it over, or if they somehow were resistant to European disease?
I did very, very cursory googling and didn't turn up much. Just thinking it could be an interesting book, if you liked that sort of thing, and wondering if it had been written.
79: Close, along the the same lines. I thought to throw out Frege, but I've mentioned that before.
I know Teo is talking about something close to him, to I'll cut it out, but there is, out there, a quintessentially mispronounced name or three (garnered chiefly from working the in the book trade); it's just been too long since I worked in an open shop.
I know Teo is talking about something close to him, to I'll cut it out
Nah, go ahead. Like I say, my issue is really for me to decide alone, so there's no reason for it to monopolize the conversation.
How about we talk about feminism?
I suspect that the ick reaction being labeled "objectification" actually has more to do with the sense that the speaker is addressing a closed group that doesn't include you.Suppose I wrote a story about a man named Frank, whose twin brother (Frank has learned) is in the process of being framed for murder this very night. Frank is in the middle of a complicated plot to give his brother an alibi. He's already found the cabdriver and tricked him into waiting outside a certain apartment for an hour. Now all he needs is the last ingredient of his plan - a woman to go home with him (as he poses as his brother). Frank is, with increasing desperation, propositioning ladies at the bar - any girl will do for his plan, it doesn't matter who she is or what she's about...
I'd bet I could write that story without triggering the ick reaction, because Frank is an equal-opportunity manipulator - he manipulated the cabdriver, too. The story isn't about Frank regarding women as things on the way to implementing his plan, it's about Frank regarding various people, men and women alike, as means to the end of saving his brother.
If a woman reads that story, I think, she won't get a sense of being excluded from the intended audience.
I suspect that's what the ick factor being called "objectification" is really about - the sense that someone who says "...but you'll still find women alluring" is talking to an audience that doesn't include you, a woman. It doesn't matter if you happen to be a bi woman. You still get the sense that it never crossed the writer's mind that there might be any women in the audience, and so you are excluded.
In general, starting from a perceptual reaction, it is a difficult cognitive task to say in words exactly why that reaction occurred - to accurately state the necessary and sufficient conditions for its triggering. If the reaction is affective, a good or bad reaction, there is an additional danger: You'll be tempted to zoom in on any bad (good) aspect of the situation, and say, "Ah, that must be the reason it's bad (good)!" It's wrong to treat people as means rather than ends, right? People have their own feelings and inner life, and it's wrong to forget that? Clearly, that's a problem with saying, "And this is how you get girls..." But is that exactly what went wrong originally - what triggered the original ick reaction?
And this (I say again) is a tricky cognitive problem in general - the introspective jump from the perceptual to the abstract. It is tricky far beyond the realms of gender...
I say: You know what it's like to go to High Holy Day services. Find out what it's like not to go. If you discover you'd rather have attended, you figure out a way to participate next year that mitigates the discomfort or alienation you feel with organized Judaism. On the other hand, you might discover it feels fine not to attend, and you take a hiatus for a while.
65: that thing that kittens do, walking all over your keyboard and batting at the screen to get the cursor. That's cute precisely once.
Jesus is mad at the kitten(s)? It's almost like he's never had kittens before.
Hissing at them can work pretty well. Spritzing a water bottle at them is a good training method. I'd say that one's indepensable.
Huh, I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense and I'll take it into consideration. Thanks, Bave.
Teo, I suppose going to an Orthodox service, and finding an opportune moment to shout out "YOU LIE!" isn't an option you're really considering?
I think 89 is good advice. I'm not going to services this year, so I at least won't judge you.
92: Well, it wasn't, but now that you mention it...
I would not recommend spraying your cat with water bottle when it is walking on your keyboard.
93: I think it will make you all the more able to judge teo, in the "takes one to know one" sense.
96: Okay, but I get to judge emdash too.
oh, in 90, "indepensable" s/d "indispensable". I feel it should have a concluding "i" rather than "a", though.
101: Oh, I can do calm exclamations, Bave.
I could shout out "YOU LIE!" in Congress and still garner broad bipartisan support for single-payer healthcare.
95: Technicalities. Pick the kitten up quickly by the scruff of his/her neck and move it one foot over away from the keyboard. Spritz water at kitten, say sternly, "No!", push kitten onto floor, or chair (depending on age of kitten).
You have to be quick on your feet for this, and have the spray bottle to hand.
Or, just wait a while. The kitten will get tired of the keyboard/mouse game in due time.
97: Can we work up some kind of quid pro quo on inscription in the Book of Life?
106: Sure. I'll vouch for you if you vouch for me.
Anyway, I've convinced myself that Jesus is a monster due to the kittens.
106: How about the two of you just meet on the High Holy Day and play The Game of Life.
It would be pretty adorable if you ended up with twins in your little car, emdash, you have to admit.
109: I'm not familiar with the Parable of the Kittens. Or did He perform some miracle with kittens? I mean, I might have missed that passage, but it seems like the kind of thing I'd remember. Cite?
Further to 112: I should specify that I'm really only familiar with the Brick Testament, so if you could cite to that, that would be the most helpful.
Teo, if you decide you want to go, consider finding a Reconstructionist havurah. Without getting into my own beliefs (or lack thereof), I've found Reconstructionist services relatively interesting, thoughtfully interactive, and often filled with appealing people (read: hot chicks). If you're interested in hearing more, send me an e-mail at my work account. My dad knows all the good Recon rabbis and will be able to offer advice about where you might want to go for services. Also, any havurah worth anything will allow a newcomer to attend High Holiday services without a ticket. It's a fucking mitzvah, after all.
Sorry, I should have mentioned: among the best things about Reconstructionist services, for me anyway, is that there's not much god talk. It's almost like a Unitarian Universalist service in that regard. But with more hot chicks.
Dash it all, Teo can't go to one of your dad's network of temples in New Brunswick.
Oh, this one is too good.
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Mary Travers left, and not on a jet plane.
Henry Gibson had the last laugh-in.
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and often filled with appealing people (read: hot chicks)
I had no idea read was Jewish.
Those are condiments? They look like decayed tisane ingredients.
115: Yeah, I've actually gone to a few Reconstructionist services recently with my mom (one of the congregations in ABQ has been doing a monthly Reconstructionist minyan), and I've found them a lot more congenial than any other services I've been to lately. I hadn't thought about that as an option for the holidays, I guess since I'm just not used to the idea of Reconstructionist groups large and established enough to host holiday services, but of course there must be some. I'll think about it.
Honestly, though, at this point I'm really starting to lean toward just not going at all.
would be pretty adorable if you ended up with twins in your little car
You don't know the half of it.
Since ari is in this thread, I should mention that the other thread got closed before I could link to his post, which is what alerted me to the amusing Beatles review.
Also, I would like to note that for the next few minutes, the third-most expensive thing in my house is a $650 blouse. Not a typo. I would hardly have believed such a thing existed, much less that a friend of a friend would buy it. And not wear it. And give it away for free with the tags still on it.
(Probably after I cut the tags off, the value will go down, right?)
125: Is it still in the blister packaging?
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Apologies to those who don't know what I'm talking about, and for this being wildly OT, but: when I get down, I get all the way down. 2.16 miles, yo. This was an amazing day.
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Oh, that's sad about Mary Travers. I was raised on PP&M.
I was raised on PP&M.
Me too. It took years of deprogramming conducted by the kewl kidz before I realized how treacly most of PPM's music really is. Still, I she a tear or two every time I hear "Leaving on a Jet Plane".
128: What am I, chopped liver?
Awesome, GB. Glad everything worked out.
You didn't, um, join the mile low club, did you?
123: I think the best part is the hilarious disproportionate amounts of hair.
122: Not going's an excellent option, too. That's been my annual rite for as long as I can remember. I didn't even know the New Year was coming up until a colleague who teaches Jewish history shana tovaed me.
"Leaving on a Jet Plane" is so good precisely because it was written by John Denver.
consider finding a Reconstructionist havurah
I never would have pegged you for a fucking hippie, ari.
Looks like this is the closest Reconstructionist congregation to me. They hold services at the Unitarian church in Princeton. I'm still leaning against going this year, but that might be a good option if I decide to go later.
Bathyscaphe's are known for down-getting.
Hm. That didn't work very well. Oh well!
Maybe not going would make me hate this time of year less.
The pearl necklace havurah is supposed to be excellent, yes.
123 is indeed chock full of adorableness.
Henry Gibson had the last laugh-in
Iris just watched "Charlotte's Web" the other day. Sad.
Pearl Necklace Havurah: congregation, or niche porn film?
142: At the risk of sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, starting graduate school is among the most alienating and depressing experiences ever -- at least for lots of people, including me. Consider seeing a therapist, if you're willing to do that sort of thing. Seriously, it's a VERY hard time for many people -- I could tell you stories, if you'd like, because my pain is fascinating -- and there's no sense in toughing it out alone unless you really deprecate professional help.
Or maybe I should shut up.
Bave's 89 is sage advice. I had a similar experience with deciding not to attend, which suited me fine for a long time; the thing that brought me back to the Mass after years as a jack Catholic was the music, but I wouldn't count on that working for you in the same way (and at any rate, I'm back to not attending, partly for musical reasons). I remember the early non-observance as a time of very mixed feelings but also of heightened awareness of the whole experience of being raised Catholic, and leaving was generally a positive thing.
And yes, the kitten is pissing me off. You can be all like, oh he's a monster, but has it occurred to you that the kitten is the monster here? Of course not. That's how they game the system.
starting graduate school is among the most alienating and depressing experiences ever -- at least for lots of people, including me
I've actually been loving it so far. The alienation and depression are coming from totally different parts of my life. I appreciate your concern, though.
I've actually been loving it so far.
Thanks for belittling my suffering, antisemite.
I'm glad I could help revive this thread with the threat of another discussion on feminism.
make me hate this time of year less.
Have you considered moving to a location where this time of year is marked by cold drizzles, gray skies, and bone-chilling damp?
65: Cats walking on your keyboard - inconvenient. Cats napping on your hands while you touch type - very cute. Also, one of the few good justifications for a trackpad.
156: Considered? I've done it, twice.
has it occurred to you that the kitten is the monster here?
I bet you weren't batting at the cursor on a monitor when you were 2 months old. You probably couldn't even get up on the desk. Haha.
I think I'd pay good money to see "Jesus vs. Kitten". You should document the kittens monstrous crimes, Jesus, for history.
It's a fucking mitzvah, after all.
I love that song.
151: I stopped attending Mass in college, after I started having sex (I felt like I should take it that seriously). After ~4 months of not going, I went to Easter Mass with my roomie, but it felt like not much to me, and I've basically never been since (the odd wedding or funeral or whatever).
As an architect I've been in a lot of churches (Catholic and otherwise), and I'm sure some of the pleasure I get from that is nostalgic (most of it being just aesthetic), but I really don't miss it. Actually, I was field-measuring a priest's residence today, and mostly I was kind of squeed out by the religious stuff (including the little plastic bottle of Holy Water - you know, for emergencies). OTOH, there were some nice bottles of wine in the basement, which reminded me that at least Catholics don't think the wedding at Cana featured graoe juice.
graoe juice
One of the mysteries of the Church, I guess. I'll text Dan Brown and ask.
164: Hasn't made much difference, as far as I can tell.
I used to occasionally attend Mass for sentimental reasons or for family events, and enjoyed it. But for whatever reason, the last Confirmation I went to some years ago seemed incredibly primitive and foolish to me. It finally cured me (mostly) of my sentimentality about Catholicism.
Somewhere I have a scapular that my grandmother gave me when I was little. I never did figure out what to do with it. Is it like tefillin, or what?
after I started having sex (I felt like I should take it that seriously).
Take which seriously, the religion -- or Mass -- or the sex? Both?
I stopped going with any regularity to Catholic Mass once I was confirmed; this was an agreement with my parents, that I'd go through catechism far along enough to be confirmed, then as an official adult member of the church (at age 15!), I could make my own decisions. I chose to stop going, except for very occasionally during the last year or so of high school, almost entirely for aesthetic and/or nostalgic reasons, and then I went to the Latin masses complete with incense, for the architecture and otherworldiness.
My typos are absolutely awful this evening. Otherworldliness.
I should be more engaged in the conversation, sorry, but
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Fuck yes! this is an awesome ninth inning.
|>
Anywho, church, god, tradition, kittens, whatever.
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Walk-off! Yes!
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Speaking of which you want to know something funny? The girl who sits next to one of my daughters in first grade is named Meh. When I saw that, I laughed inside, and thought of you all. Poor kid.
Sometimes I dream of a language where a very common, innocuous word had, as a secondary sense, some obscene and extremely offensive meaning.
173: Oh, geez. Is it pronounced, well, "meh"? Not as in the Canadian pronunciation of "eh" with an "m", but the other?
Off-topic: I see that Standpipe in the other thread made the comment "Content is boring. Let's talk about methods!" This tickles me to no end, and though I didn't follow that thread at all, it will make me smile for some time. That is all.
Sometimes I dream of a language where a very common, innocuous word had, as a secondary sense, some obscene and extremely offensive meaning.
Dream no more, p.a.
That's not really offensive enough, though, is it?
176: Well, she's Latina, so it's more like the Canadian 'eh'. Heaven forfend that she ever come across this place.
Every year her teachers are newly disappointed by her lack of enthusiasm.
Not as in the Canadian pronunciation of "eh" with an "m", but the other?
Wait, how else does one pronounce "meh"?
Confidential to those missing church music or still attending church for the music: hymnbooks are basically free, batty organists rehearse in a lot of churches at odd hours, and community choirs are always looking for enthusiastic voices. Or you can buy a bunch of Bach on CD, which is what I did.
Also, did meh really come from the internet? The internet told me a while ago that it came from the Simpsons.
Speaking only for myself, the music absent the liturgy is kind of meh.
Not the music, the experience of the music.
The internet told me a while ago that it came from the Simpsons.
When I worked on a college paper, I was on the "eh" side of an "eh"/"meh" debate. That Simpsons episode (whichever one it is where some character spells it out "M-E-H, meh" showed me that I was soon to be on the losing side of the distinction. I'm over it now, though, really. I promise.
Maybe your liturgies were more inspiring than my liturgies were.
No one is explaining to me how to pronounce "meh" the "other way."
And not necessarily kind-of-meh in an absolute sense, but yes, sometimes that, too.
179: Her name is pronounced more like "May," then. It's just the usual routine of clarifying spelling, which is a drag ... but to tell you the truth, I might not even connect someone telling me "Em -- ee -- aitch" with the utterance as it's used here.
I must be getting tired. I see a hell of a lot of amusing names in the course of a day. You don't even want to know how much people embarrass themselves with their email addresses when they order books online. It's like they think I can't see the address or something.
what could be uninspiring about literature and sex parties?
185: I saw two different episodes claimed as the origin. There was the "mtv generation" one, where I thought they clearly said "eh" and some other one where "meh" was clear.
I waited until college for the litorgies, text.
You don't even want to know how much people embarrass themselves with their email addresses when they order books online. It's like they think I can't see the address or something.
Flea over at One True Thing has some entertaining posts about working at a catalog retailer and having customers who don't seem to realize that a human is going to read the personalized notes they are including with their gift orders.
Oh hai, I'm stupid. The canadian "eh" is pronounced "ay," of course, and I even indulge in an "eh" every once in a while. "Eh" as in "meh" is the short version, accompanied by a shrug and a moue.
The distinction is between IPA [me] ("May") and [mɛ] ("meh").
Shrugannamoo is in Pennsylvania, I take it?
I pronounce "meh" as written and used here like the first syllable in, let's see ... "metonymy". Or "metamucil". Meh. It's cut short.
What I think of as the more Canadian "eh" with an "m" preceding is more like "may" or "mae".
I guess it's too late to become a shrugonymous commenter.
I always thought meh was the slightly less negative cousin of feh, and pronounced accordingly. Huh.
198, 190: Actually, "May" in english is pronounced with a diphthong whereas in spanish it's just the pure vowel, so slightly different. "May" might be the closest English word, though.
customers who don't seem to realize
e.g. twrligrrl69@
bigboygeo@
These make you crack a smile because they're buying scholarly non-fiction: oh, contract law, is it, or international conflict resolution? Or a book on the stratigraphy of rock formations of southern Georgia? You go, geo! (They get a lot more creative than that, but it gets boring after a while.)
203: That's how I say it, anyway.
205: True. The English word is really more like [meɪ].
Now that I think about it, it seems the Canadian "eh" doesn't really do the diphthong either.
the music absent the liturgy is kind of meh
That's key. So is the fact of the Church's essentially rejecting its unsurpassed musical legacy in favor of making people sing total crap. It's almost as though they don't believe the old stuff was divinely inspired.
I always thought meh was the slightly less negative cousin of feh, and pronounced accordingly.
I do not know how "feh" is pronounced.
in favor of making people sing total crap
You mean like this?
I mean, really. Double-dotted quarter notes? Are you out of your mind?
212: And whatever happened to four-part harmony?
I was on a project for awhile to record Bach chorales solo with Audacity (sound editor) using some pitch shifting to augment my range. Turns out I can't sing well enough to make the results not suck.
213: How's your sputum? Do you have swine flu?
Oh great, now the whole blog's going to be quarantined.
And whatever happened to four-part harmony?
Socks before shoes. First, get the congregation to sing above a whisper, or at all. Then we can talk harmony.
You mean like this?
"The requested document was not found on this server." Praise be to God, I suspect.
First, get the congregation to sing above a whisper, or at all.
This is where a thunderous organ comes in handy. If you know what I mean. Seriously, with all the stops out and the pipes vibrating like mad, individual singers tend to lose their inhibitions. As it were.
You want the congregation to sing harmony, four-part no less? That would take musical training of some sort, the ability to read music, training in the basic hymns or some such. Last I remember of your basic Sunday church gathering, people just went to put in their time.
But perhaps you're right: get them to actually sing much at all, and it's a start. Toward what? I rarely talk to church-going people about their experiences there, as it makes us all uncomfortable.
I don't want to sound immodest, but we sang some great stuff. The Poulenc Mass in G for Epiphany Mass at Notre Dame in Paris, for example, the ecclesiastical equivalent of an arena show. I can't settle for less anymore.
223 gets to the heart of the problem. It's complicated.
You want the congregation to sing harmony, four-part no less?
Not really, no. I was just thrown that p.a. included four-part harmony in the Decline Litany. In my response, you can substitute "ponies" for "harmony" salva veritate.
As I say, I don't talk to church-going people much at all any more about their church-going, and I can't remember the last time I talked to a Catholic mass goer.
If you really wanted to change this, wouldn't you talk to the priests about the level of involvement of their congregations? There are surely historical forces in play.
Nobody listens to priests anymore. It's as if people have lost respect for them.
Catholic choir memories: we used to sing "There Is A Balm In Gilead" with the lyrics "There is a bomb (boom!) in Gilead."
I was probably eleven. I blame Reagan.
217: I am coughing up a lung, but otherwise feel ok. But, gah, I would like to be asleep and instead I cough. (I feel like I never got sick enough for it to have been swine flu. The symptoms were basically in line and I felt like crap, but I never felt deathly ill or anything.)
224: CA and JMcQ would run away together, I think.
My congregation sang in four-part harmony, or at least, the hymnbooks contained four-part harmony in swathes, and some of us sporadically tried for the non-dominant parts. Mormons have to learn an instrument, though; it's like the 14th Article of Faith.
I always thought Bridgeplate was a Jewish name.
We could really fill the pews if we brought back animal sacrifice. Some of the newcomers might even like to sing!
Kittens first. They're annoying some of the commentariat.
the acolytes listen.
there's some pretty bad music out there in non-catholic land, and it's only getting worse (no offense intended to the people who like bad music).
I'm surprised at myself for being this interested, but the music is unparalleled, and it is a bit sad to hear it only rarely now, usually as a performance, pretty much.
"There Is A Balm In Gilead"
To the tune of "House of the Rising Sun", I hope.
237 to, uh, let's see, 227 and 224.
Because I've never heard that song before and immediately thought of the title sung that way.
240: I caught it. I was trying to think of the lyrics:
"There is / a balm / in Gilead / they CAAAAAAAALL it the balm in Gilead"
I was confused but amused with my work.
Speaking of smells and memory as were the other day, I walked by a swimming pool today and the smell of the chlorine made me think of my days on a swim team as a kid.
(I feel like I never got sick enough for it to have been swine flu. The symptoms were basically in line and I felt like crap, but I never felt deathly ill or anything.)
H1N1 is, for most people, just like any other flu. In terms of deadliness, it's not even particularly different from any seasonal flu; the concern is the distribution of deaths in the population that gets it.
AAAaaanyway, the main reason I brought up FPH was that without it I had no idea what the chords were of that incredibly insipid melody line that SB linked, and thus, had no idea what the song sounds like. It's pretty sad when a song only requires a range of three notes from its congregation.
And part of it is nostalgia from my early days in Baptist church where I (and some other people, indeed) would sing harmony from the hymn books (in which all songs, of course, were written with FPH).
The singing was probably the best part of an otherwise barely tolerable experience.
242: My swim team nickname was "Seal" (because I swam butterfly well at the time). My little league nickname was "lightning" (because I'm a rather slow runner and would hit the ball sorta far and get a single). In sum, I have mixed history with sports-based nicknames.
the concern is the distribution of deaths in the population
Not enough kittens, right? Same old story.
And they didn't capitalize "lightning" because they were descriptivist little leaguers. Weird, I know.
But suppose singing crap makes people more likely to go to heaven; isn't that worth it for the Church?
Not enough kittens, right? Same old story.
You'll just have to masturbate more, ari.
There are surely historical forces in play
Part of the problem is that Vatican II called for greater congregational participation, but in ambiguous language (I don't have the gumption right this moment to look it up); the general trend was interpret that directive as requiring the entire congregation to sing together, which pretty much put paid to plainchant and polyphony. Not that the average congregation was listening to Palestrina on Sundays, but now people have to sing this dreadful new stuff which is modal for no apparent reason, and which also happens to be melodically counter-intuitive, completely defeating the purpose of congregational singing for the musically untrained. At least the Episcopalians and Lutherans hung on to the old hymns.
Wouldn't it be interesting if people of, say, junior high or high school age were asked to attend a few sessions of religious ceremony in each of several places of worship?
I've never been in a synagogue, or a mosque. I've never been to Baptist church services. This is terrible, at least in terms of understanding the experiences of those around me.
People who knew me from swimming called me by my first two initials because sometime in elementary school we did an activity where we custom-made shirts with designs and our initials on them and the swim coach decided to call me by those first initials. The only stroke I really swam well (by local age-group terms) was breaststroke.
Well, technically, nothing makes it more likely for anyone to go to a place that doesn't exist, but now I'm beeing an ass.
p. a.
['The ass didn't appreciate it.']
But suppose singing crap makes people more likely to go to heaven
In that it makes it less desirable to live on earth, yes.
But seriously, what if you had measurable evidence that congregations where crap was sung were more godly than congregations where crap wasn't sung, and the plausible causal factor was the singing?
but now people have to sing this dreadful new stuff which is modal for no apparent reason
The Gelineau settings of the psalms? This will go faster if you drop names.
250: Right. I vaguely recalled something along those lines and didn't have the will to look it up; thanks. I mentioned the priests because I'm a bit curious whether your average priest at the nearby church is altogether happy about how his masses go, what with the lackluster participation and so on, and wishes he could make them at least open their mouths and sing instead of mumbling. I suppose they wouldn't say, publicly.
dreadful new stuff which is modal for no apparent reason
I think Standpipe's other blog says that you probably mean "monophonic".
No, Standpipe's other blog does not say that. I think he means "modal".
Somehow I doubt that any of that new crap music is modal.
I was in St. Peter's in Rome as a tourist while a service was being performed waaaaaaaay on the other side of the building (it was not Sunday, and I think it wasn't set up at the main alter). So far, in fact, that those of us near the entrance could not be said to have been attending the mass (and indeed, there was a dividing rope set up between service-goers and others). I don't remember any singing.
256: No, more like the authorless stuff churned out in reams by the Oreg/n Cathol/c Press (which I google-proof because I have friends who work there and record for them). I hold Gelineau partly responsible, though, as an intermediary for that kind of thing. Also, the priest who accused me of heresy was one Msgr. Gelineau, so the name raises my hackles.
Somehow I doubt that any of that new crap music is modal.
You would be surprised at how often music with a nominal key signature will noodle around with no apparent relation to the tonic, until you realize, Duh, that's mode VII.
Wait, Keir is hypothesizing measurable evidence for increased godliness?
Yes, I mean modal. Not that there's anything wrong with modal. Plainchant is all over the ancient modes; sometimes you get yourself up in some hypomixolydian, and it just feels right, you know?
Godliness increases in proportion to the thunder of your organ.
(Hey, parsimon, I gave comment #251 its own thread!)
Wait, Keir is hypothesizing measurable evidence for increased godliness?
Well, I'd accept attendance as a substitute, to be honest.
hypomixolydian. Huh. Never heard of that. I only vaguely remember these things in the first place, mind, but I'm very happy to listen.
singing::church attendance::::slideshows::news website pageviews?
268: We'd really have to ask the priests whether attendance is up or down as an overall trend over decades, and whether they feel they can plausibly attribute any overall uptick to the introduction of boring music. One wonders whether the Church tracks these things.
People go to some of the services in Oxford just to hear the singing, because they don't fuck about, it's proper old-school with boy sopranos and the like.
At school we just had to sing all the usual hymns, nothing fancy, and no harmonies.
263: Then the new Catholic crap must be a lot different from the new evangelical crap that I experienced in "charismatic" churches. I was just assuming they were about the same.
No, it's more like the exact opposite.
I suspect I was wearing my two-tone neon Umbros.
If the Standpipe is male: hawtt.
If the Standpipe is female: girlfriend!
If the Standpipe is a standpipe: live free.
This post would have been ideal for comment #1 to be "So how was the sex?"
277: Don't be too hard on ari. He's had a stressful week.
