In practice, they seem to often be too short to be truly flattering, and the bubble skirt is a hard look to pull off unless you are truly willowy. But I'm unfashionable, and I only like the one in the last link.
I think you're right: all but the third are too short, although the first and last could easily have been made a little longer and they would have still looked fine.
The third one is the only one that makes sense to buy as a one-piece. As a fidgety person, I need my blouses to be infinitely adjustable.
However, I suppose that revealing my hammer pants has permanently damaged my fashion credibility around here.
Hammer pants! I missed that. But wow, what a beating your fashion cred just took.
I concur with nosflow's evaluation. A young woman in class tonight was wearing a dress of this species, I think, and it looked nice.
Do they have squiggly fake graffitti on them? Because then whoever sold you on revamped won that round.
I do not concur with nosflow: 2 and 3 are nice, and 1 and 4 are ok, with four being the loser. I DO agree with Jackmorman - three is the only one that looks sporty (?) enough to carry off the whole one-piece thing.
As one-pieces 1 and 4 seem too formal to be one-pieces. If someone notices, they're just going to look at you weird.
max
['Three seems ok, since it's so baggie, the one-pieceness doesn't look to matter so much.']
No, 3 is the least nice; the others are ok.
Three is the least nice? Are they in a different order on your computer?
#2 is the bad one. At least, it is the one I'd look worst in. 3 would look fine on me.
I recently bought a designer skirt that demands to be worn with a body-suit-tight top and it kills me because I hate tucking shit in.
Bizarre #2 is clearly one pair of shoulder pads away from a Dynasty reunion, and is therefore the loser.
I just don't get what advantage is conferred by sewing a specific top to a specific skirt.
15: No need to bother coordinating--it's done for you by the designer (who, unlike you, is a professional).
I wish they sold men's dress shirts with ties already sewn around the neck.
It reminds me of the weird 00's thing of cheap mall tops connecting shirts to sweaters/sweatervests. I like layering, dammit. And nothing is more embarrassing than when your fake top-dickey accidentally pokes out of your fake sweater-thing while you're walking down the street and someone's all "OMG cheap mall clothes."
Separates! Separates! Separates!
You people are all on crack. 1 and 4 would be alright outfits if it weren't so clear that the cheapo rayon blouse were sewn in. 2 is just kinda boring, and the odds that the skirt would stay in place properly seem rather slim to me. I'm not about to run out and buy #3, but it's obviously the least objectionable of the lot.
Three is the least nice? Are they in a different order on your computer?
It's the standard-mottled-grey-t-shirt look of the top that seems like an odd choice. Maybe it's just me.
Actually, that's heather, not mottle.
But nosflow also said 'ugly' for #3, and who wouldn't trust him as an authority on women's fashion?
20: my ignorance of clothing-related terminology: let me show you it.
I suspect that Neb would have us all dress like Rachel in Blade Runner.
14: Bizarre #2 is clearly one pair of shoulder pads away from a Dynasty reunion, and is therefore the loser.
I can see that point. However, AWB sez:
And nothing is more embarrassing than when your fake top-dickey accidentally pokes out of your fake sweater-thing while you're walking down the street and someone's all "OMG cheap mall clothes."
Which would be my objection to 1 and 2. Too frumpy for mall clothes, eh? Whereas 3 seems to be working around to 'sundress' territory, just not in one color.
max
['I don't know why you'd spend 69 bucks for a one-piece that didn't look like a one-piece.']
22: Mottled is for composition book covers.
I like the first, the second is cheap-looking, the third is fine but not memorable. Four looked better before I clicked the zoomed-in pictures and could see the weird fabric, which I don't like. Also, it looks odd from behind. The accessorizing advice: "Tie your look together with a shimmering waistband, add a sparkly headband and girly heels, and you'll be thanking your fashion guardian angel for such great style!"
['I don't know why you'd spend 69 bucks for a one-piece that didn't look like a one-piece.']
I don't know why you'd spend any money on any of these, especially not 2 and 3. But then I am a fashion grump, because all the nice plain button-downs keep getting infested with ruching and ruffles and teeny pockets and crap, and then I can't buy shirts for years on end until whoever decides these things comes back to their senses. If they'd just leave my shirts alone, they could have all the frippery they want elsewhere and I wouldn't object.
Until then, bah.
Did they also sew in some undergarments? Because undergarments are important, and people might otherwise forget them.
Four looked better before I clicked the zoomed-in pictures and could see the weird fabric, which I don't like.
If you click on the "composition" link, a cheery pop-up informs you that outfit four is 100% polyester and requires hand-washing and drying flat. You just know the thing will look like a limp rag within a month.
I don't like any of them and don't understand their appeal. Are these supposed to be fashionable, or is it just about convenience, like velcro on shoes?
That's the big problem with these sewn-together things. They look good on the hanger, and hang nice on the body at first, without those wrinklings that come with time, but when time comes, and adjustments in hang must happen inevitably due to fabric peculiarities, you'd best hope those fabrics are unattached to one another or you are in for a world of hurt.
I find it hard to believe that apo doesn't rock the sparkly-headband-and-girly-heels look.
You just know the thing will look like a limp rag within a month.
Right around the time it becomes passe. So that works out well.
3 looks like bizarre throwback swimwear.
I retract 28. The fourth one is not merely bad, it's hideous. Anyway, separates are nicer when you're undressing the wearer, I think.
I eagerly await coveralls that look like jeans and a flannel shirt.
27: But then I am a fashion grump, because all the nice plain button-downs keep getting infested with ruching and ruffles and teeny pockets and crap, and then I can't buy shirts for years on end until whoever decides these things comes back to their senses. If they'd just leave my shirts alone, they could have all the frippery they want elsewhere and I wouldn't object.
Well, the thought that crossed my mind with 1 is 'why would you want to pair a sweatshirt and nice skirt... and then sew them together?' 4 was 'Why would you want a short-sleeved poet's blouse? Do they have one with a pre-installed pocket protector and ink stain?' So I second the not being big on the frippery.
max
['You could just go to Walmart and pick up a plain nice skirt and a plain nice shirt for half the price, and then... options!']
38: As a temporary fix in the interim, you should probably duct tape each of your favorite outfits together.
When the sads get to bubbling in your lower intestines, is it best to squeeze them down, down, or push them up, up, through your esophagus and nose, etc.?
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Fruit bats love them some fellatios.
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new trend: spelunking in strawberry underpants.
you should probably duct tape each of your favorite outfits together.
Ah, there's a niche market for these things: people who are too lazy and/or confused to figure out which clothes belong together.
to figure out which clothes belong together
This is easy: their location in the pile on the floor decides.
#2 doesn't look like it fits, but I have no fashion cred anyway and I'm sure some of my clothing don't quite fit properly. It may be a coincidence that #2 is the only one shown worn.
The problem is that they only look good if you're rail thin and tall, because then they're cute mini-dresses. If you're short and curvy, they're too empire-waisted and thus make you look squat and pregnant. I have one. It is only for my super skinny days. Having the top attached to the skirt makes it hard to control where I want my waistline to be. I look pregnant. OTOH, I am starting to come around to the idea of dresses over leggings, which I thought was a terrible idea. But it's so comfortable! And my Uniqlo leggings are awesome, and my favorite souvenir from my trip to NY!
I am up writing. I am so tired. I want hug.
It's several (at least 4) hours too late Belle, but here's a hug from the opposite coast.
An ideal holiday frock, the delicate ruffles of this dress will flirt with your neckline, while the weaved texture of the grey skirt will graze your knee.
Oh no they won't.
49: How dare you suggest that I won't graze your knee!
44: I would be willing to pay someone to provide me with a simple algorithm for which clothes to wear in which combinations for different occasions. I fake it as best I can, but my attitude towards fashion extends from disinterest to hostility, depending on my mood. Every time I talk to someone about this issue I get a lot of "you could do this or you could do that" which is profoundly unhelpful. I need a fashion Fuehrer to simply tell me "wear this!"
a simple algorithm for which clothes to wear in which combinations for different occasions
ME TIMES ALWAYS = YES
I would be willing to pay someone to provide me with a simple algorithm for which clothes to wear in which combinations for different occasions.
Organisations exist to handle this sort of problem: monasteries, nudist colonies and the armed forces, to name but a few.
51: Or Guranimals for grown ups! (Does anyone remember Guranimals?)
Apparently, they still exist. http://www.garanimals.com/kids_clothes.htm
I need a fashion Fuehrer to simply tell me "wear this!"
A bossy girlfriend?
53: And the Nation of Islam. Say what you will about them, but those guys are snappy dressers.
51: You're a guy, right? I figure you can identify "occasions on which jeans and a T-shirt are okay," and manage those on your own. So you're left with occasions that may be more formal than that. Go to a biggish, reasonably spendy clothing store (a nice department store if there's one convenient), latch onto a sales person, explain the types of occasions that are likely to come up in your life, and tell them you need three or four conservatively appropriate outfits.
This is more expensive and less interesting that developing a fashion sense on your own, but there are people who will pick out clothes for you.
Iris recently acquired a garanimal garment, but I think it's just a white shirt. I don' get it.
61.last was not intended as dialect, just a typo.
60: I thought all a guy needs is a pair of khaki pants and a blue buttoned down shirt?
I had a fashion fuehrer for a little while. It was awesome.
64: I have a fashion fuehrer.
I'm sure it's mostly a good thing, but I miss my flannel shirts.
60: This is my current approach, but it just barely works.
63 is a joke, right?
Get a few pairs of nice, contemporary-cut trousers of the type Ogged (PBUH) liked, plus some plain button-up shirts in restrained colors, plus quiet belts and shoes. If you're over 30 and don't have to wear a tie for professional reasons, this will get you through at least 80% of all occasions where clothing is required. For the rest, like LB says, it's just jeans and t-shirts; get ones that fit your body type, which can be tricky.
it just barely works.
Sounds like you haven't found the right store. Try different places until you find one where the sales help hands you stuff you like.
the Nation of Islam. Say what you will about them, but those guys are snappy dressers.
I reckon that Hasidim have also got a certain timeless style. Black suit, white shirt, no tie, black hat. Nothing fussy about that (assuming you avoid the great big fur hats that some of them seem to wear).
We're supposed to know what kind of pants Ogged liked? The only things I remember about Ogged is that he was Mexican and that he hated Russian women for being too sad.
I dunno, khaki pants are pretty good from the Fuhrer standpoint. Nice brown shirt, a pair of jackboots with matching belt, top it off with a tidy little cap, and you are ready to roll...
The intersection of 63 and 67 is the source of my hostility to fashion. It's such a shifting landscape of completely superficial yet surprisingly consequential things, and there is enough disagreement over what is appropriate that understanding the landscape requires real effort unless you enjoy that sort of thing, which I categorically don't.
The conflict between 63 and 67 comes down to whether you care what you look like. Khaki pants and a dress shirt will get you through most non-t-shirt occasions you're likely to run into, if you have the sort of life I'm guessing you have, without anyone particularly noticing that you're inappropriately dressed. If that's all you want, you're done.
If you want to dress in an actively attractive, rather than mind-numbingly dull, kind of way, you need someone to sell you more interesting pants and shirts. ttaM is at least a semi-fashiony kind of guy, as is Bave, so they're rejecting settling for mind-numbingly dull. But if you really don't care, mind-numbingly dull is all you need.
68:Ugh, at khaki pants.
Indeed.
Blue jeans.
At a meeting a couple weeks back, I saw a guy who looked enough like Ogged that I did a double-take. The guy's last name was Rodriguez.
Togolosh shows us the anomie that occurs when people have not internalized their oppression and feel guilty about it.
74: Totes. You are completely correct in your assessment and advice. I'm just venting a bit.
And I really do sympathize. I've settled for mind-numbingly dull myself (or, at least, for trying to remain within the 'not actually inappropriate' space without devoting any more thought to it), and I get cranky because even that takes more effort than I'd like. Luckily, at this point in my lifecycle, no one particularly gives a damn what I look like.
re: 74
Actually, I'm shlubby much of the time. But I do have occasional aspirations to dressing well, and have a couple of nice things. My wife is an encouraging influence, though [as she works in fashion retail].
I have on a knitted hoodie, so not about to win awards for elegance and sophistication. Although I was wearing it with a nice Jaeger tweed jacket, and a cashmere scarf.
I'm wearing a flannel shirt and jeans. Shocking, I know.
I am literally wearing khaki pants. Because that's how I roll.
And jeans, obviously. I think I own two or maybe three pairs of trousers that aren't jeans or tracksuit trousers. None are bloody khaki, though.
Are the anti-khaki attitudes against khaki the color or khaki the cut? I mostly wear things somewhere in the khaki/chino spectrum, but usually brown or green or grey.
("Khaki" is one of those words that the more I type it the more it looks horribly wrong.)
For me it's the colour, in particular. I own one pair of 'khaki' style trousers but they are a sort of mid gray with a very very very fine pinstripe.
The color, the cut, and the fabric, in descending order of unacceptability. With some effort, you can find nice-looking and comfortable pants in a better cut and fabric. I acknowledge that this takes effort sometimes, depending on your body type and the amount of money you can spend. But khakis are so annoying precisely because they're the default non-jeans pant for guys.
(I admit that my strong feelings about khakis have a lot to do with the years I spent in DC, where they're the default male uniform and a near-perfect symbol of everything I didn't like about the place.)
(I further admit that the phrase "narcissism of small differences" applies to many of my opinions about fashion.)
74,
At work, I don't want to stand out for my clothing. Socially, I aspire to present myself as a sharp, classic dresser, but my success in this area is cyclical, largely depending on whether I feel like trying. The idea of even being aware of "the fall trends" is foreign to me.
I am literally wearing khaki pants. Because that's how I roll.
Good tweet from Kristen Hersh: "lady on tv: "you will literally eat your words"
I like the pants from Outlier quite a bit. The "technical" fabrics drape nicely.
I'm wearing a khaki shirt and flannel jeans right now.
The color, the cut, and the fabric, in descending order of unacceptability. With some effort, you can find nice-looking and comfortable pants in a better cut and fabric. I acknowledge that this takes effort sometimes, depending on your body type and the amount of money you can spend.
Also you have to learn what "cut" means. I have not even begun that process.
I just acquired a pair of Outlier "workwear" pants, because I am a sucker for technical fabrics. They're really nice, although if I wear them with the wrong shirt I look like a janitor. I also feel vaguely conned that I paid so much money for them (although I didn't pay full price), but it does seem like they'll last for about twenty years or so.
I'm wearing corduroys, motherfuckers.
Also you have to learn what "cut" means. I have not even begun that process.
Some things are tight, some things are loose. Some are tight all the way down, some tight at one end, but looser at the other. It's not rocket science.
ok, I'm trying leachblock. Bye, y'all.
Nothing comes between me and my assless khakis.
I'm wearing a utility skirt and a lightsaber AND THAT'S ALL.
I'm envisioning 96 accompanied by an illustrative slide show. ("Slide 1: Tight pants. Slide 2: Loose pants. Slide 3: Pants tight at the top, and loose at the bottom, as seen on a cartoon sailor. Side 4: Pants loose at the top, and tight at the bottom, as seen on MC Hammer." And so forth.)
Do my khaki pants become less problematic because, as a woman, I can call them beige?
Do my khaki pants become less problematic because, as a woman, I can call them beige?
It's like women don't even care about the male gaze anymore. Post-feminism, where are you?
97: fuck you!
(Corduroys are the pants of AGGRESSION! Also, cordarounds are way stupid.)
102: It's like women don't even care about the male gaze anymore.
I'm not even going to tell you how bad my shoes are.
re: 101
I think you need to use phrases like, "well, they are sort of a taupe-ish beige, but with shading slightly closer to an ecru, although in the right light it's more of a vintage vellum, yeah? It's very on-trend next spring, part of the whole 90s revival, okay?"
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Excruciating fun of the day: read the hate mail the author of the Wired piece about anti-vaccine crazies has been twittering about (linked here).
You know who sucks? People.
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103: Considering the etymology ("corde du roi"), I suppose you're right, in a way, but they still make that swishing, sussurous sound when you walk, as Lewis Barnavelt experienced in various John Bellairs books.
Actually, they're kind of biscuit colored, if you know what I mean by that.
American biscuit or English biscuit?
I first ran across the stuff linked in 106 via a Cosmic Variance thread, where they're inexplicably allowing JB Hand/ley to rant in the comments section without deleting or disemvoweling him. It's pretty disgusting.
re: 107
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduroy
The etymology isn't French, apparently.
I feel compelled to report that I have graduated to maternity trousers, and for the occasion purchased some ridiculous actual Seven For All Mankind jeans, which I am wearing right now. They look fucking great.
Going back to the original post, I'm going to have to agree that both 1 and 4 are spectacularly horrible. Only 2 looks like it might be vaguely wearable (and only then if it was worn with a fitted, lightweight knit cardi. Which I guess defeats the point). Not sure if this is (a) my lack of taste (b) some kind of UK-USA disconnect (c) years of commuting having confirmed that all-polyester outfits are a seriously bad idea.
113: Some great advance was made in maternity pants between 1999 and 2001. My first pregnancy, everything sucked and had weird stretch panels and was awful. My second pregnancy, I found pants that just stretched a ridiculous amount in the relevant places without being otherwise unpleasant.
112: Damn you, early '90s issue of GQ!
Corduroys are the pants of AGGRESSION!
No, khakis are the pants of AGGRESSION.
Khaki trousers, originally worn by the armies of the British Empire as they marched across various bits of bled, veldt, savannah, prairie, ulu, outback and bog, indiscriminately oppressing in all direction, and subsequently adopted by the conquer-happy lunatics of the Nazi Party, are now the default men's trousering in the capital of the New Military Hegemon, Washington DC. (see: 88)
Honestly, what more do you need?
117: I've seen as many photographs of the Afrika Korps as the next man who likes to read about desert campaigns, but didn't the Nazis favor, predominantly, grey and black?
Honestly, what more do you need?
What, for conquering? Cargo pockets, I guess.
115: you sure it's not just that you'd generally gone up in size between pregnancy #1 and pregnancy #2? You used to be a rail, IIRC. I'd think making reasonably-normal-looking clothes that stretched enough to cover a pregnant belly would be more difficult the smaller the rest of the woman's frame was--since on smaller women, the belly-to-body ratio is much larger (pregnant bellies vary less in size than pregnant women do).
That's pure speculation (across multiple dimensions), but it seems more plausible than a radical advance in maternity clothing between 1999 and 2001.
Pith helmets, to keep off the midday sun? Puttees, for the mad dogs?
Of course, blue jeans took off because of miners, which makes them the pants of the rape of the Earth, and dress slacks are the pants of bankers, which makes them the pants of the rape of the working class. Really, when it comes down to it, so much evil has been done while wearing pants.
White linen suits for tea? Flannels for croquet and tennis with the vicar? Something called tiffin that I've never quite understood?
120: Nah. For one thing, I was the same size at the end of both pregnancies -- I topped out at the same weight to within a couple of pounds -- and that's when the maternity clothes are kicking in. And while I was heavier at the beginning of my second pregnancy than at the beginning of my first, I was only one size bigger, which isn't enough to totally restructure how clothes fit.
I would buy that I just found better pants the second time, but I have the impression that I'd heard the same thing from other women who had kids around the same time -- that there was a massive discontinuity in maternity-pants design around 2000, and they got significantly better.
122: You make a very good point. In fact, I'm taking mine off right this minute. Power to the people!
122: Let's settle down. We don't want to find ourselves endorsing the Utilikilt.
106: On Facebook, I witnessed an anti-vaccine person telling a 28-year-old woman that she should not get the flu vaccine because of - are you ready? - the risk of her developing autism. Excuse me? At least get your facts straight about the supposed links between autism and vaccines! You cannot develop autism at the age of 28!
124: interesting. Did the materials change?
128: Most of what I found the first time was non-stretchy pants with an inset panel of weird stretchy material in the front. The second time, I found pants that were made of the same stretchy material all over, but just cut so that they stretched enough to fit in the front.
I'm wearing paternity pants...laydeez.
Really, when it comes down to it, so much evil has been done while wearing pants.
And, while ttaM and I don't like to acknowledge it, while not wearing pants - it was not so long ago that millions of imperial subjects cowered beneath the colonialist kilt.
Pith helmets, on the other hand, are OK, having been reclaimed from colonialism by the heroic cadres of the Vietnamese People's Army.
didn't the Nazis favor, predominantly, grey and black?
The Wehrmacht wore grey, and the SS wore black, but the party uniform was khaki, hence 'brownshirts'.
What, for conquering? Cargo pockets, I guess.
No, silly man, you don't carry your own loot, you get an oppressed native to carry it for you.
127: A commenter on a parenting site my wife reads said something like, "There are people who used to get really sick from these diseases back when they were prevalent. Now there are people who have bad reactions to vaccines. Which one causes more problems? I don't think anyone knows."
millions of imperial subjects cowered beneath the colonialist kilt.
An uncomfortably intimate relationship with the oppressor.
...the SS wore black....
There's some movie in which Malcolm McDowell plays an SS officer and at one point strips off his uniform to reveal a red-and-black swastika athletic supporter.
I'm wearing paternity pants...laydeez.
134: I can't help imagining that as a small enthusiastic man with face painted red and black, the team colours of second-division football side Swastika Athletic.
124: The technological advance was a side efect of meeting Y2K compatibility requirements.
131: The Wehrmacht wore grey, and the SS wore black, but the party uniform was khaki, hence 'brownshirts'.
The Wehrmacht (and the Reichwehr and the Bundeswher) wore field gray - the traditional Prussians colour. It's actually gray tinted with green. The political and police SS tended to wear the black leather. Waffen SS wore field gray with different insignia. SA wore brown (and you're right, that was the official party uniform, although in practice nobody wore it much after the SA got knifed). The party propaganda guys wore *white*. Which is just weird.
So khaki is the color of loud and unimportant.
Other subject: is there something wrong with nice jeans and a nice shirt, for hitting the interval between a T and a dress outfit?
(I admit it: I have pants issues. Not too many pants I like in some other than jeans or leather or least black. Kill me.)
max
['I need a nice button-up military jacket, dammit.']
139: White? Seriously? Like Bad Humor men or drug dealers on Miami Vice?
Jeans are coded about as unambiguously 'casual' as anything can be. If the event is something where you're not supposed to dress casually, jeans are defying the dress code.
Now, lots of people do, if you look sharp enough in them (or even if you don't) no one will give you a hard time, pretty much, make yourself happy.
Jeans are coded about as unambiguously 'casual' as anything can be.
Depends on the jeans, and depends even more strongly on what else you're wearing with them. Maybe it's different in NYC, though.
A commenter on a parenting site my wife reads said something like...
And that's why I don't read parenting sites. I think I've mentioned before that we know a couple who refused to get their son vaccinated because of the supposed autism risk, and then he went and became autistic. Life can be a bitch like that.
In other children's health news, what appears to be swine flu has come to our house. Fuck.
This is some kind of cowboy thing -- jeans and nice boots or something would be Western formal?
Eh, I'm probably being a tightass, and I don't actually care. But anyplace I've been, if jeans are okay (and that's most of my social life, to be clear) that's equivalent to "there is no dress code". Wearing jeans constitutes not complying with any operative dress code.
is there something wrong with nice jeans and a nice shirt, for hitting the interval between a T and a dress outfit?
No. At least, back in the day a lot of fellow grad students of the male persuasion adopted a routine wardrobe of jeans and a button-up (down) shirt, with shoes that weren't sneakers, for teaching, and I was always envious that this somehow managed to look pulled together enough to command respect without being technically dressed up. Also, a belt. Add a jacket (sports coat?) for extra dressed-up-ness.
Yeah, I guess jeans are still technically casual, though.
Speaking of tightass, those Outlier things look pretty tight and uncomfortable for cycling (even if they're stretchy), but otherwise pretty handsome.
But anyplace I've been, if jeans are okay (and that's most of my social life, to be clear) that's equivalent to "there is no dress code".
I guess LB wasn't invited to Jack Danforth's 70th birthday party.
This is some kind of cowboy thing -- jeans and nice boots or something would be Western formal?
Not precisely. It's more that "fashionable" jeans + dressy shoes (something like these) + dressier button-down shirt is not going to be read as casual. Add a sport coat, and it's *definitely* not casual.
146: The workwear pants are really comfortable for cycling. I tried on a pair of the OGs (they ended up not having a pair in my size), and they were a little tighter but really comfortable. I'm pretty skinny, though.
I've worn jeans to the opera, but that was just expressing my New Mexican heritage. (They were my good jeans. And I wore them with my only piece of high-fashion clothing, a Prada jacket I got a ridiculous deal on.)
Parsimon's not wrong, and I really am sounding fussy about this when I don't mean to be. All I mean is that if you think you can get away with jeans, it's not because there's some recognized dress code that distinguishes nice jeans from schlubby jeans (barring freak cowboy social circles of which I am ignorant). At that point, you're just guessing situation by situation about what will look normal or won't.
149: So how exactly does one acquire a pair without paying full price?
Also: what the hell is it with people who press a crease in their jeans?
I TA in jeans. Never just jeans and a basic top, but darker jeans, often trouser cut, with nicer tops and blazers, etc. I've never had a problem with being taken seriously and I'm dressed at least a few notches above the majority of my students*, so I'm not too worried about it.
But considering that one of my favorite professors in undergrad used to lecture in stained shorts, silly t-shirts (regularly worn multiple days in a row and often clearly wrinkled like he'd picked them up off the floor), and high-top Converse sneakers in rather psychedelic colors, I don't think academia is really the place to look for a conservative dress code.
*There is always at least one fashion-plate student that has a lot more money and style than I do, and sometimes she'll outdress me.
All I mean is that if you think you can get away with jeans, it's not because there's some recognized dress code that distinguishes nice jeans from schlubby jeans
I actually think this is precisely the difference. There is definitely a dress code on the West Coast for social and the occasional business that differentiates between the two. Maybe it's the LA influence?
My 4 year old's music teacher doesn't allow the kids to wear jeans to class, because she is several hundred years old and from some old world country that probably no longer exists and (I think) in her world jeans are too informal even for children.
The result is that very often kids come to class in sweatpants.
153: Huh. East Coast/West Coast, must be. I'd swear it's not NYC/everyplace else.
. I've never had a problem with being taken seriously
I've never had a problem with people taking me seriously either.
it's not because there's some recognized dress code that distinguishes nice jeans from schlubby jeans
I think we all know schlubby jeans when we see them!
But no, there's probably not a recognized dress code that will tell you the difference (though some people upthread also referred to "nice" jeans); it always seemed to me that barring schlubby jeans, it's a matter of what you put with them.
Let the men wear jeans! I would, for medium-dressed-up-ness, but pretty much the only way to do that as a woman is to mimic male jeans-dress, with a jacket over them.
156: It works wonders. Once you get that out of the way, you can just do what you wish.
All I mean is that if you think you can get away with jeans, it's not because there's some recognized dress code that distinguishes nice jeans from schlubby jeans (barring freak cowboy social circles of which I am ignorant).
This seems to me like you're arguing that unwritten codes of conduct don't exist. What's your position on the existence/non-existence of the UK's constitution?
159: No. What I was arguing, (and I may be wrong about this) was that there wasn't a commonly accepted 'dress code' (as in, the sort of thing that could be violated. If there's someone in a crumpled T-shirt not being viewed as significantly underdressed, there's no 'dress code' in operation) that included 'nice jeans' as a semi-formal gradation. Someone wearing jeans is either in a casual situation, or is flouting the code.
I'm probably wrong about this, but that's what I was arguing, not that unwritten codes don't exist.
And then there's the White House on Saturday.
know schlubby jeans
I don't. Are nice jeans just new ones? Last time I went for clothes (the last-year's-and-overstock branch of an expensive department store, I bought jeans 20% more expensive than Levis. Staying in touch and all-- the store sold very expensive jeans pre-faded on the fronts of the thighs. Are these pre-fades nice jeans? What if there is extravagant oversized embroidery that costs extra? Seriously, I absolutely cannot tell what the coded contexts of these variously priced jeans are. Is there some magazine I can read to help me figure it out?
Are nice jeans just new ones?
For me a lot of the difference between schlubby and "formal" jeans is color. I'm currently wearing a pair that I would never wear in more dressed up occasions but would have 2-3 years ago, because they've faded so much. But the other part of it is cut - there are definitely jeans that are cut like trousers (for women) that are meant to be worn in different situations than your camping jeans.
I was going to suggest that the difference might be generational (with more acceptance of jeans as formal wear among Gen Y or whatever the hell I am), but Josh and LB are close in age, no?
149: I pre-ordered a pair of OGs at a reduced price, then they didn't fit, so I took them back in person and traded them for a pear of workwear pants, since they were already out of my size of OGs. So I saved $28. I still feel vaguely foolish for spending so much on a pair of pants, but I do like them.
I wear jeans every day, which I think is slightly underdressed for meetings. My guess would be that they overlook me ("probably some unimportant student") until I say something. Once I've said something on-point, I have no trouble with people taking me seriously. Good voice modulation and no nervous giggles go a long way.
(And I really don't actually mean formal - no one is showing up at black tie events in jeans. Just, you know, nicer.)
Are nice jeans just new ones?
I'm not sure, actually. Schlubby jeans would be older ones that are kind of all stretched out of shape (bagged out knees? baggy ass? thighs getting threadbare. maybe frayed cuffs, though you might get away with that).
Maybe it's more a function of fit. The menfolk probably know more about this.
I wear trouser cut denim pants to work all the time. I don't really categorize them as jeans.
For me a lot of the difference between schlubby and "formal" jeans is color. I'm currently wearing a pair that I would never wear in more dressed up occasions but would have 2-3 years ago, because they've faded so much.
Huh. I tried on a pair of light blue jeans the other day and was promptly informed by my beloved of-spring that they were style: "Those are more of a young people thing." You are making me think she was on to something.
Josh and LB are close in age, no?
I was born old. Actually, I don't know how old Josh is, but I'm pushing 40 pretty hard -- I'm Generation X, not Y.
Levi's are the jeans of choice, and that's all there is to it.
166: You've got me thinking. Technically, we are a suit wearing shop here (except on Fridays, when jeans are allowed). I've sort of slowly slid into the habit of slacks and a sweater almost every day (dresses in the summer, but we're business casual in the summer anyway) unless I'm in court and I'm far from alone. I'll notice the young associates looking especially sharp (they are in court the most) and have come to sort of code "sharply-dressed attorney" as "someone who isn't important enough to send someone else."
165: They seem like a nice little operation. I bought one of their merino hoodies, too, because I imagine that this is a tough time to be running a small business like that.
171: I'm 35. I think the difference is largely down to East Coast/West Coast, with a dash of social milieu thrown in.
What about "denim" that comes in non-denim colors and finishes? Up until very recently I didn't even own a pair of jeans, but now I own several, or at least the manufacturer describes them as jeans. One pair is deep blue with deeper blue stripes and a fairly smooth surface; one pair is thin and stretchy and pale grey; one pair is veryvery tight and deep olive with a not-especially-denimy feel. None are exactly a classic "jeans" cut.
This is definitely the year of things going wrong in my wardrobe, since I went from having no jeans to having three pairs and having absolutely no sport shoes to having a very retro puffy pair of Camper trainers (Ebay! Gently used!). Next thing you know I'll have some sort of hideous sports apparel, or a short-sleeved tee shirt or something.
I'm working on a plan for creating my own hammer pants, since the ones they make in more-fat-than-thin women's sizes are cheap-looking and icky. I would be even more of an anarchist clothes-horse than I already am if someone made high-quality interesting clothes in, say, sizes 12-18.
bagged out knees? baggy ass?
This is the other thing. I bicycle, so my upper legs are disproportionate. I have a few old pairs of jeans that are comfortable and not baggy, but they were binding at first; for new ones, only super-relaxed cut or whatever seems to fit, which seems to be code for overweight. Are there magic code words for jeans that will fit? It sounds asinine, but for suit jackets or dress shirts, athletic cut or tall seems to be the code for "no beer gut." What is the jeans equivalent?
Tape measuring leg width in the store seems hopeless, but it's all I've come up with.
Carhartt women's cut fit me. Yay! I'm done.
169: Hm. I call anything made of denim meant to be worn on your lower half jeans. I wonder if this is the problem? We don't have the same definitions?
... if someone made high-quality interesting clothes in, say, sizes 12-18.
I am surprised that no young entrepreneur(se) has ventured into made-to-measure clothing for women during the last ten or so years. The assumption must be that the demand does not exist, but that seems short-sighted. At least in bigger cities there must be thousands of professional women who would gladly order a couple of suits, some shirts and a dress every year, at the very least.
Are there magic code words for jeans that will fit?
"Expensive designer".
Blume made me go to the Lucky store, and sure enough, they fit way better than other jeans. It helps that they have a huge selection of different cuts.
At least in bigger cities there must be thousands of professional women who would gladly order a couple of suits, some shirts and a dress every year, at the very least.
I know several guys at work who've been solicited by the made-to-measure sales people. I would never do it, I don't think. I need to see it on before I buy. And also, it took me a decade to buy a couple of suits, a shirt and a dress....
Blume made me go to the Lucky store
I've mentioned the drunken partner who unzipped his to show me how there's that Lucky label on the fly, right? Oy.
Are there magic code words for jeans that will fit?
Sadly, no. Or rather -- I don't know! Maybe in the men's fashion world there are. In women's clothes, it's a drag, because no, last I knew, the closest you could get was things like "relaxed fit" (for wider hips, usually), or ... actually I'm forgetting what the terminology is, but it seemed inadequate last I checked. I don't buy many new clothes as a result.
In men's clothes, I always had the impression that "tall" tended to mean heavy-set (as well as tall). My housemate is pretty damn tall, and has to buy "tall" pants which are invariably made for someone thicker around the middle than he is.
Other men I know with well-developed thighs seem to wind up having to wear jeans that are baggy around the middle, so I know what you mean.
I need to see it on before I buy.
With the right tailor, you would tell him what you want/expect to see. Also, you'd go through a few fittings to adjust the shape, fit, etc. -- it's kind of cool when the tailor turns a few scraps of wool held together with dental floss into an almost-jacket that, for some reason, has only one sleeve, then produces a finished suit out of nowhere the next time you show up.
180: There's quite a lot of made-to-measure dresses and skirts on etsy (and anecdote suggests that many vendors do a very nice job) --if I were the dress-wearing variety of secretary, I'd be all set. It is odd that there's not more suits, though.
It's much more that I'd like more interesting shirts and a better selection of pants.
This is the other thing. I bicycle, so my upper legs are disproportionate.
Curiously, bicycling seems to have made my calves hypertrophy--I actually had a pair of pants which were too big in the waist and thighs but too tight in the calves. Although I did see a picture of myself recently (always a startling experience!) and realized that when you begin bicycling as a sort of small fat woman, lose a small amount of fat and gain a large amount of muscle, you end up with ridiculously outsized legs. Muscle-y ones, but rather cyborgish.
Tape measuring leg width in the store seems hopeless, but it's all I've come up with.
That's preferable to just trying them on?
With the right tailor, you would tell him what you want/expect to see.
Sadly, I need to try on like 8 things before I have any idea what I want/expect to see. When I walk in a store, I very often see something I think will be amazing. And then I put it on and determine that it wouldn't suit my shape at all. I suppose maybe if they had pictures of different cuts on differently-shaped women so you could find the woman with your build and pick the shirt/pants/jacket that looked best on her??
It is odd that there's not more suits, though.
Shaping the jacket shoulders and setting the sleeves are, I believe, the most difficult tasks that a tailor has to accomplish. People apprentice on Savile Row for years to do it to a by-appointment standard, but anybody who doesn't buy suits off the peg is likely to be obnoxiously picky exacting in his requirements.
189: But why can they do perfectly good tailored dresses by mail, then? I'd be happy enough with a fairly well-fitting interesting-looking suit, as would (I think) most etsy clientele.
My goodness, exacting for me would be "this jacket fits my wide shoulders without swimming on the rest of me".
190: A suit jacket is built on a canvas infrastructure, which shapes the jacket's chest and shoulders. I don't think dresses are constructed in quite the same way.
Suits, whatever. What this world plaintiff needs is tailored tighty whiteys.
Muscle-y ones, but rather cyborgish.
I think that's the new look. Or at least it should be.
192: (The aptly named) Judge Kinsey notes: "Plaintiff testified he dressed by placing his underwear inside the pants he plans to wear that day and then pulls both on together. He testified that he never puts his underwear on and adjusts himself to get comfortable - that is just not how he does things."
Now why didn't I ever think of doing it that way?
That article starts out funny and then keeps getting funnier all the way to the end.
Hey, at least he didn't ruin his wife's vacation by asking her to look at him.
. I think the difference is largely down to East Coast/West Coast, with a dash of social milieu thrown in.
Since I think Josh has mentioned on FB that wearing a tie to the interview could hurt a job candidate at his workplace, and LB is a fancy New York lawyer, more than a dash.
The denim issue that perplexes me these days is that the grain of the fabric seems to have rotated - it used to be on a 45-degree diagonal, and now the grain is vertical (and more visible, I think). But the Levis I buy have remained diagonal. I'm sure there's coded fashion meaning in this, but damned if I know what it is.
I'm making stuff up here, but it might have something to do with jeans being made of lighter fabric. I have a vague belief that cutting fabric on the bias, i.e., diagonally makes it drape more easily and not be so stiff, so if you're making something out of very heavy, stiff fabric, like old-school denim, it makes sense to cut on the bias. For lighter denims, the fabric might be soft enough that cutting it on the bias wouldn't be desirable.
But I'm really, really stretching for stuff I half remember there. That could be all nonsense.
192 - I know I should mock the guy, but I have no trouble believing that someone could be so out of touch with his body that he ignored chafing for two weeks.
I felt bad for him when he says he doesn't check his cock because of his belly, and I can see why he wouldn't want to look at himself in the mirror, either.
I know it all adds up to being ridiculous (and then suing!), but stories that come out of body self-loathing always make me disproportionately sad.
I wouldn't feel too bad, I think the story's absolutely unbelievable. He had to have taken the underwear off somehow every time he peed (pull it down, pull his cock through the fly, something) and reassemble himself afterwards. There's just no way anyone could get stuck in their underwear for more than a couple of hours for real.
Someone wearing jeans is either in a casual situation, or is flouting the code.
Maybe in strictly professional situations this is the case, but otherwise, no. A guy in a pair of dark, well cut jeans with leather-soled lace-up shoes, a white t-shirt, and a blazer is going to look much more dressed-up and put-together than a guy in khaki pants, rubber-soled shoes, and a blue button-down.
I have a vague belief that cutting fabric on the bias, i.e., diagonally makes it drape more easily and not be so stiff
This is somewhat the case. You've got more give up and down and side to side when it's cut on the bias. Good for when you need woven material to imitate having a little stretch to it. It's a bitch to sew things that are bias cut, though. It keeps moving around.
203.last: You've got to make sure that the bias cut actually killed it.
A guy in a pair of dark, well cut jeans with leather-soled lace-up shoes, a white t-shirt, and a blazer is going to look much more dressed-up and put-together than a guy in khaki pants, rubber-soled shoes, and a blue button-down.
I entirely agree with you, insofar as that person will look chicer, better put together, etc. But in businessy business situations jeans get read weirdly by fogies. I have a good friend who is a fancy lawyer who constantly gets "talked to" about his "casual Friday" wear -- and he wears more or less exactly what you describe (but with a very nice dress shirt). The schlubs in the office in their Dockers? Fine. The entirely better put-together dude in the jeans? Talk to him.
But in businessy business situations jeans get read weirdly by fogies.
Fools!
[Whee. Run around like an idiot!]
140: 139: White? Seriously? Like Bad Humor men or drug dealers on Miami Vice?
Yeah. I was at some (lame!) traveling WWII at the State Fair a coupla years ago; they had a decent collection of Nazi uniforms. 'What the fuck is that white shit?' German Proganda Ministry dress uniforms (and diplomatic corps as well I believ). Bleached white wool, cut to the exact same pattern as other German jackets. {mouth hangs open} My. Wow. Loud *and* tacky. Good for those pre-war cocktail parties I guess.
144: This is some kind of cowboy thing -- jeans and nice boots or something would be Western formal?
Yeah, I've think you've got that pegged right LB. But I'm fron Texas (and Bave is from NM) and the cowboy influence is so all-pervasive that I don't really notice it.
150: Parsimon's not wrong, and I really am sounding fussy about this when I don't mean to be. All I mean is that if you think you can get away with jeans, it's not because there's some recognized dress code that distinguishes nice jeans from schlubby jeans (barring freak cowboy social circles of which I am ignorant). At that point, you're just guessing situation by situation about what will look normal or won't.
Nope, she isn't. I just don't really get (in any way) the whole socks and wingtips with the thin formal pants thing. Looks uncomfy and liable to be destroyed. Maybe if I bought 700$ suits, I'd think better of it. As it is, I find it baffling.
170: I've sort of slowly slid into the habit of slacks and a sweater almost every day (dresses in the summer, but we're business casual in the summer anyway) unless I'm in court and I'm far from alone.
Aha. Yeah I went to Target a few years ago to snag a bunch of new t-shirts and they had a coupla of inexpensive (i.e. cheap but nice) sweaters. Some stretchy thickish nylon material that felt cottonish. I got one in muted black and another in muted sage green. Love 'em. I had been figuring I could get away with that, plus a pair of new light-colored jeans, my black commie boots and my gray duster. Seems to work.
Just need a hat in carbon gray hat to go with it.
max
['I need new hats.']
205: I feel like that obtains in strictly business situations on the east coast, and pretty much nowhere else.
208: I'm sure true! Maybe at swank firms in Chicago, too.
And yet I associate the equation in which expensive jeans + expensive other garments = perfectly well dressed up rich person with New York, specifically. I must be out of whack.
There's just no way anyone could get stuck in their underwear for more than a couple of hours for real.
New mouse-over.
210: Yes! But not law firms (apparently).
210: Me too, which was why I was so confused by LB's insistence that there was no difference between schlumpy jeans and nice jeans.
You know who freak me out? People who iron their jeans.
a-a-and oh my lovelies am i ever becks-style
what is up that i should pretend it matters to be otherwise?
Huh. I suppose when I think of 'dress code' situations, I think of business, where I'm having exactly the fogey reaction oudemia mentioned (or at least I'd expect anyone who cared to have that reaction), or the sort of family event that involves going to church -- wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah, christening -- where the same kind of fogey reaction seems appropriate.
It's not that I can't picture the jeans, sport coat, leather shoes, hair silvering artistically at the temples, well-dressed rich guy -- I know exactly the look you're talking about. But it reads as including a bit of a 'fuck you, peon' to me. "I can wear jeans in a situation where some formality is appropriate because I don't have to care if you think my clothes are formal enough, I make more than you do." There's some intentional flouting going on there. (Not, I would say, in all circumstances -- the East Coast/West Coast thing is probably real. But I think of a well-dressed guy in jeans as, e.g., a client in the office of a lawyer wearing a suit. The lawyer's wearing a suit to show respect for the client, the client's wearing jeans because he's not in a situation where he has to show respect.)
the sort of family event that involves going to church -- wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah
HANDS OFF OUR RELIGIOUS CEREMONIES, SHIKSA.
Some stretchy thickish nylon material that felt cottonish. I got one in muted black and another in muted sage green.
I know what you mean, I think. I got my brother something similar for christmas last year, though I don't recall if it was actually nylon -- thickish, muted grey, thicker than just a long-sleeve t-shirt (rather, an actual sweater), and he loves it. Which is kind of sweet. It looks reasonably distinguished on him, which I think had been becoming a problem with respect to work clothes for him now that he's 40 and his usual skateboarder-style youthful clothes were seeming a little weird.
At least in the Southwest, there's definitely such a thing as "nice jeans" (also known as "dress jeans"), and a wide variety of not-totally-informal occasions where such jeans would be perfectly appropriate along with a long-sleeve button-down shirt. I think max is probably right that this is from the widespread popularity of the cowboy style; I think it's probably more common in rural areas, and I have a vague impression that it's particularly widespread in Texas.
LB, I think the problem is basically just that your earlier claims were a bit overreaching, even for NYC. It's just not true that there's no place with a "dress code" where jeans would be inappropriate. On the East coast they're certainly almost universally unacceptable in business situations (even as business-casual), but the nice-jeans-and-a-shirt-and-jacket look could work in many nice restaurants and nightclubs, even ones that affirmatively *do* have dress codes.
220: "inappropriate" s/b "appropriate"
Oh, and "dress jeans" = well-fitting, black or dark blue, no stains or holes. Not old and worn out, but not necessarily brand new either. Always with a nice belt.
214: I'm totally with you, dude! Just see 151!
215: Entertain us, tierce.
224.1: eerie! Let us recline in our wrinkly jeans together.
224.2: very true.
I think I told a story here before about a case I had where one of the witnesses asked me what he should wear. I told him there was no need to wear a suit, but he insisted that he wanted to dress formally. He showed up in pressed indigo jeans, cowboy boots and a bolo tie threaded threaded through a slice of agate the breadth of a child's palm. I was utterly charmed. Also, he looked undeniably dressed up.
I should add that the cowboy boots were the pointy-toed, "dressy" type.
I have a good friend who is a fancy lawyer who constantly gets "talked to" about his "casual Friday" wear....
I went through a jeans-in-the-office phase, but no one ever "talked" to me about it. I was very disappointed.
The look described in 226 is exactly what I was talking about in 219.
||
Holy crap, most harrowing ride from work home ever. I'm about to leave and I get an e-mail from eekbeat's mom (who's emailed me all of never) with a subject line something like URGENT GET BACK TO US IMMEDIATELY and the text asking if I'd talked to eekbeat last night after she got home, because the cops found her ID and no one's been able to contact her all day. Her cell phone's going straight to voicemail.
As it turned out, I had talked to her when she was heading to the subway, but she hadn't returned my call later on—not really all that unusual, as she's often gone to bed unexpectedly early or whatever. But of course now, I'm taking a cue from the urgency of the e-mail, driving home completely flipping out and trying to talk myself down. "Come on. Let's think of rational explanations here. Maybe she dropped her wallet? Or got harmlessly pick-pocketed?"
But all the while driving home I'm running through other scenarios, too, all quite distressing, and here I am hundreds of miles away, unable to do anything. And oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, man. Fucking shit.
And then I get home and I have a cheery e-mail from her mom. They'd just heard from her. She's fine and will call me later. Toodle-oo!
|>
heh it is all i can do to spell properly...
sifu will be all "dude you are encouraging the barbarians and everything, be off with you"
i say: nothing that happens when quite drunk can be all bad!
sifu will be all "dude you are encouraging the barbarians and everything, be off with you"
I will?
I mean, if you want I will, but I can't claim I'll know why.
My memory when drunk is elephantine, Sifu. It is nothing against you, except obviously stuff you said but forgot. There is no one present I do not utterly love, so trust in that oh my lovelies. Troll of S are you there, I totally love you too. I could fuck you into sweetness f you weren't such a major lame pussy feeb, really now. Night all: I have actual stuff to focus on tomorrow, sadly. Saturn enters Libra shortly: some will prosper, some will falter. xxx xxx xxx
yr welcome jeebs, have a nice evening
I think I called tierce a barbarian elephant.
That Wranglers "dress jeans" link sure illustrates just how different the rural/cowboy and urban versions of pulled-together denim truly are.
214: UNG's stepmom. Also irons underpants. Yes, I do recognize there are reasons the boy is fucked up.
231: Egads man! Rationally, I knew you probably wouldn't be typing that all out unless you already kne she was okay. Still, nervewracking even to read it. I'm not sure I could have operated a car had I been in your shoes.
It is certainly the case that jeans cut on the bias will stretch around a person more freely, *and* stretch less freely on the diagonal -- this is said to give some uplift to the buttocks --, *and* be harder to sew together. They'll also probably use more of the fabric, especially if the crotch curve is well-cut and the pieces are far from rectangular.
We've been here before, haven't we?
231: Damn. Glad to hear everyone's okay.
||Anyone know where I could watch Game 1 online, in English? I found a site streaming it but it quickly got taken down, now I've got a site showing it in Spanish. Unfortunately my knowledge of Spanish is limited to French cognates and reading ads on the subway.
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233: ST from the thread in question:
... the problem is that once we let our standards of pedantry slip, unfogged will become as unreadably stupid as every other forum on the internet.
To fail to abide by the conventions everybody else does merely because you're feeling lazy or nonconformist or whatever not only makes your comments less interesting to read, it makes unfogged less interesting to read, and leads inexorably to more less-interesting people commenting here in more-or-less incomprehensible fashion.Ring a bell?
241 & 243: Thanks. Turned out to be eekbeat's wallet dropped going for a sandwich today at lunch. Nice Manhattan lady had it, googled the (Virginia) license address, and got her parents' house number. Commence freakout, based on all the other details, which turned out to be innocuous. Information asymmetry, I guess.
Oh for goodness sake: and they shall know us by the trail of YIKES
Still, I seem to be an affectionate kind of a total sozzlehead. Hope the stains will come out and etc. I do love you all, just not normally so lurching and volubly.