Re: Plain language

1

It's true. We're identical to people who are married, which means we can't be.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:21 AM
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Don't most states have a marriage law that says something like, "If you really tried to get married honestly, you really are married. Even if the Justice of the Peace was actually an actor hired by MTV."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:21 AM
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Remember when "words mean things" was part of the plain-spoken right wing's litany of first principles? Rush Limbaugh came back to that one in the 90s a bunch.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:22 AM
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3: I think actually Limbaugh was saying, "words: mean things".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:24 AM
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5

Anyway, I'm guessing that this is the kind of thing that is far more likely to be used by some guy who doesn't want to pay alimony than to achieve a step toward social equality.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:26 AM
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In practice, statutes are interpreted so as not to be absolutely ridiculous. This doesn't save every bit of bad phrasing, but something like this a court wouldn't blink at doing what the legislature meant, not what it said. (Where this gets screwy is in laws complicated enough that 'what the legislature meant' is unknown or ambiguous. I mentioned a paper I wrote in law school here once on a provision of the Taft-Hartley Act that was written so badly as to be literally meaningless, and has taken on a life of its own having an effect with nothing at all to do with what Congress actually meant to address.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:27 AM
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7

Sorry about the dreamkilling.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:30 AM
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8

I dreamed I saw teo in drag riding a foldie along the Hudson River.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:43 AM
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9

And how do you know what the legislature meant? Huh???


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:43 AM
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10

You can't step in the same river once.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:45 AM
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11

O words, mean things!


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:45 AM
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12

11: Library words mean!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 11:46 AM
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6: Judicial activist.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:10 PM
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14

9: You take judicial notice.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:11 PM
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10: One two three rivers, the same one, not two, one two-inch step.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:30 PM
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I dreamed I saw teo in drag riding a foldie along the Hudson River.

Which means he's now technically married to you in Texas.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:31 PM
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6: I agree the statute is likely to be interpreted as you mean, but this doesn't seem to me like a typical case of "statutes are interpreted so as not to be absolutely ridiculous". Banning marriage isn't an absurd or meaningless result, or something the legislature couldn't conceivably have intended. I mean, getting states outside of the marriage business altogether, and having it be purely a religious ceremony, is an idea that's been floated by a number of people as a response to the gay marriage debate--the very debate to which they were admittedly reacting! And while I agree that's not likely what the Texas legislature intended to do here, it is after all what the language plainly says.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:32 PM
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18

Luckily neither of us is in Texas.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:32 PM
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19

You could strike "likely" in the first sentence of 17, and replace it with "certainly". The rest of the comment stands.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:33 PM
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20

Yeah, the standard rule is that you determine legislative intent from the plain meaning of the words. Only if they are ambiguous do you worry about finding extrinsic evidence of intent.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:37 PM
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17, 19: Your 'certainly' covers it, I think -- where a court knows exactly what the legislature meant to do, they'll read the law that way if there's any possible way to do it, including a non-literal reading, even if a literal reading is possible.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:40 PM
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20: That's the standard rule, but do you honestly have any doubt about what a court would do with this?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:42 PM
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23

And how do you know what the legislature meant? Huh???

In this instance, the ambiguity was raised by opponents of the law at the time, and the law's supporters said that it was not intended to cover "traditional" marriage.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:45 PM
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22: What if one of the judges got married after 2005 and wants out without going through the expense of a divorce? The judge could set a precedent.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:46 PM
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24: Actually, I could imagine a pro-gay-marriage judge enforcing the law literally to make a point, but I couldn't imagine it not getting overturned on appeal.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:53 PM
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getting states outside of the marriage business altogether, and having it be purely a religious ceremony, is an idea that's been floated by a number of people as a response to the gay marriage debate

Floated on this very blog, in fact.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:55 PM
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25: The ruling just has to stand long enough that Lurleen thinks his honor is a free agent.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:56 PM
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28

the law's supporters said

All of them??

And besides, surely you know it's not uncommon for politicians to say publicly they're intending for a law to do one thing while privately they have other goals.

That's why you don't try to guess what they meant, you read the text of the bill they passed.

[/Scalia]


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 12:56 PM
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29

I'm thinking of a short story to take in for workshopping:

The Honorable Rufus D. Cletus thought he found true love. Until he saw Lurleen at the Tast-i-Freeze. But if he divorced Brooke, he'd have trouble getting votes from the Baptists and he'd never been able keep-up with Lurleen's love of bass fishing if he had to pay alimony.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:03 PM
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nd he'd never been able keep-up with Lurleen's love of bass fishing

So that's what the kids are calling it these days


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:06 PM
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31

I really meant for my first comment on this thread to be:

Heebie and Jammies: still living in sin.

Well, if you call that living.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:07 PM
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32

The ruling just has to stand long enough that Lurleen85 thinks his honor is a free agent


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:22 PM
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33

32: Such a ruling might turn out to be a jackpot for those Mormon splinter sect dudes in West Texas charged with bigamy.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:27 PM
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33: Maybe I'll add that in and turn it into a movie script. I'll call it "Stupid Texas is 10-0, not that I'm bitter."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:30 PM
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35

22: Sure, I am pretty confident you are right. Although, the legislature could probably retroactively amend, right? That would be a lot cleaner than "Well, yes, we have this exceedingly well-established principle of construction, but let's ignore it this time because, c'mon...."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:33 PM
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36

"Your honor, we submit that strict construction is totally gay."


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:36 PM
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37

35: This was a constitutional amendment, so I think a binding revision would have to go through referendum.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:42 PM
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38

Although, the legislature could probably retroactively amend, right?

You know, if there's one thing completely absent from our legal system that I'd like to introduce, it'd be some means for the highest court in a state (or the Supreme Court, for Congress) to compel a legislature to clean stuff like this up. There is messy and incomprehensible stuff in statutes all over the place that courts whistle as they skate by, because there's no compulsory mechanism for getting them fixed.

I want there to be a Writ of You Must Make A Decision -- where the court issues an order saying "We can't read this statute. Possibilities for what it means are X and Y. If you mean X, it should be language in this form; Y, language in this form. Pass an amendment to this law clearing it up by next month, and then we'll enforce that."

This won't happen, of course. It's one of my weird little fantasies like abolishing the states.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:44 PM
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39

It's one of my weird little fantasies like abolishing the states.

I think I'm in a commonwealth.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:47 PM
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40

I think I'm in a meeting room.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:52 PM
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41

I think I'm in the billiards room with a candlestick.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:53 PM
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42

You know, some day I will notice the low-hanging fruit in my own damn comments before clicking "post."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:54 PM
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43

38: There should be some way that you can hold the drafting of a bill to a specific legislator or legislators. That way, you could at least mock somebody specific over bad drafting.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:54 PM
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44

41: HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO PLAY BILLIARDS WITH A CANDLESTICK?


Posted by: OPINIONATED COLONEL MUSTARD | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:54 PM
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45

Speaking of referenda, the last time I voted there was an amazingly inane local ballot item: another item had been passed earlier, and a court had invalidated it for some reason, but it was still on the books, so they needed us to vote again to repeal the inoperative language.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:55 PM
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46

41, 42: What are you wearing?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:55 PM
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45: That seems relatively useful, and not much extra cost if there was already an election. Doesn't most court-invalidated law just hang out where it was, waiting for someone who missed that court case to trip over it?


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 1:58 PM
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48

47: My friends who already hate the referendum/proposition system on the grounds that we pay representatives to do this work would probably be a little peeved at having to vote to clean up inoperative language that the system had churned out. I'm thinking they'd rather see some other orderly process.

I'm going to adopt LB's fantasy in 38, only with more dancing boys feeding me samosas and grapes.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:16 PM
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49

I'll adopt Megan's fantasy and add beer and kittens.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:17 PM
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50

But not fed to me by the shirtless dancing hunks.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:18 PM
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51

What if I don't want to eat kittens?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:18 PM
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52

Damn. Too slow.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:18 PM
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53

You're only as slow as your last pwning.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:19 PM
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54

A lady is only as slow as the gentleman she pwns.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:20 PM
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55

I want a man with a spwn hand.


Posted by: The Pwnter Sisters | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:23 PM
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50: So what are you planning to do with that beer*?

*You call that beer?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:30 PM
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57

Dammit, you all have me pissed off at Martha Wong all over again. At any rate, when the issue came up last time around, a Attorney General Opinion (written by a Republican Attorney General) suggested that the ambiguity of the language wouldn't be an issue. Specifically, "the Texas Supreme Court has explained that, in determining the meaning of a constitutional amendment, courts must be guided by the Legislature's intent. See Beck v. Beck, 841 SW 2d 745, 748 (Tex. 1991). Intent, in turn, is discerned from the "language of the amendment, its legislative history, its purpose and the circumstances of its enactment." He goes on to mutter something about judicial activism.

I do note, though, that the person who brought up the issue again is running for Texas Attorney General, and she certainly has a different opinion than Greg Abbott does on the state of the law in Texas.


Posted by: 'stina | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:32 PM
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58

I call it the Silver Bullet, and if you don't like it, you must be a werewolf.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:32 PM
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59

He don't pwn you, like I pwn you.


Posted by: Tony Orlando and Pwn | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:32 PM
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60

"Most parents would never dream of spending a weekend torturing kittens for fun with their families, but hooking a sea kitten through the mouth and dragging her through the water is the same as hooking a kitten through the mouth and dragging her behind your car," Byrne says.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:32 PM
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60: Kitten of the sea, mmmmmmm.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:34 PM
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See Beck v. Beck, 841 SW 2d 745

You know you're Becks style when you start citing double.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:35 PM
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63

Have you heard my new hit, "If U Sea Kittens"?


Posted by: B. Spears | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:36 PM
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I see the franchise has expanded from apostropher to apostrophestina. Can apostrophekitten be far behind?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:37 PM
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Can apostrophekitten be far behind?

Right behind, hooked in the mouth and being dragged through the thread.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:41 PM
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Da doo pwn pwn pwn, da doo pwn pwn.


Posted by: Shpwn Cassidy | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:43 PM
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Speaking of referenda, the last time I voted there was an amazingly inane local ballot item: another item had been passed earlier, and a court had invalidated it for some reason, but it was still on the books, so they needed us to vote again to repeal the inoperative language.

It gets so confusing when voters don't know which option maintains the status quo.

Like all those times in the 90s and 00s that Alabama tried to legalize interracial marriage.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 2:45 PM
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46: My heart on my sleeve, and ribbons in my hair.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 3:52 PM
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Rings on your fingers and bells on your toes?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 7:19 PM
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And music wherever she goes.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 8:31 PM
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71

And a dirndl cut down to the top of the rose.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 8:33 PM
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72

Sorry.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 8:33 PM
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73

You really have dirndl fever, Moby. NTTAWWT, I suppose.


Posted by: turgid jacobian | Link to this comment | 11-19-09 8:37 PM
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71: Hey! Sanctity of off-blog tattoos, Moby!


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-20-09 3:39 AM
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