Re: Jesus saves; Gretzky scores.

1

People often talk about the Christmas season starting earlier every year, but it seems to me that it pretty much always starts around early to mid-November.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:12 PM
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2

Jesus saves, Moses invests wisely!


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:21 PM
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3

George Nelson withdraws!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:23 PM
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4

I think you should put a comma right after "neighbors".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:36 PM
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1: It's just that people start talking about people talking about Christmas starting earlier every year earlier every year.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:37 PM
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4: No, I think that's supposed to be a nonrestrictive relative clause.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:38 PM
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6: I think you're wrong.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:44 PM
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8

Either interpretation makes sense. Which is the best depends on facts about Stanley's neighbors.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:49 PM
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9

Jesus saves, Moses invests wisely

As for me, I'm just spent.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:53 PM
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10

9 was me.


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 5:58 PM
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11

I just talked to Stanley's neighbors right now, and also their neighbors. They all say I'm right.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 6:18 PM
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12

2: anti-semite.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 6:32 PM
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13

In certain economic environments, saving might be equivalent to investing wisely.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 6:33 PM
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14

Don't borrow from Moses. He'll break your legs kill your firstborn if you don't make your payments on time.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 6:35 PM
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You should totally borrow from Moses, but only if the seventh year is coming up.


Posted by: emdash | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 7:15 PM
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11: Neighbor, please.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 10:07 PM
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17

So which is it, Stan?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 10:16 PM
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18

Jesus saves, Fanny Hill spends?


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 10:25 PM
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19

17: I will not shame this blog with intentional fallacy.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 10:27 PM
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20

(Further to 19: that said, I'm not sure I'm grasping the entirety of the grammatical quibble.)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 10:59 PM
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21

The way you wrote it implies that some but not all of your neighbors spent the day putting up lights and decorations. If you put a comma after "neighbors" it would imply that all of your neighbors did.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 11:02 PM
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22

With or without the comma it can be parsed as an unspecified number of neighbours, though.


Posted by: wispa | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 11:05 PM
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21: That's what I thought I wrote. That's what happened. M/tch can suck it. And go to China. Or Scotland.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 11:05 PM
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24

True.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 11:06 PM
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25

24 was originally supposed to be to 22, but it works to 23 as well.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 11:07 PM
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26

I'm saddened by the lack of song-reference kudos, notwithstanding teo's commenting.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 11:50 PM
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Er, by which I mean I didn't expect teo to know the song.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-21-09 11:51 PM
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28

21 is not correct. 21.2 is especially incorrect.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 12:02 AM
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29

I'm not taking questions from M/tch, until he dignifies this with a response.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 12:12 AM
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30

To be more exact, the way Stanley originally wrote it, he seems to at least potentially be saying that according to a particular set of neighbors, it's officially Christmastime. That particular set of neighbors is distinguishable from the rest of his neighbors by being the ones who spent the day putting up lights and decorations. (Cf: "It's officially Christmastime, at least according to my neighbors who have the red car.")

I'm asserting that I'm pretty sure that what Stanley actually meant to say is that a particular set of neighbors informed him that to them it's officially Christmastime. They did so by the very act of spending the day putting up lights and decorations. That is, the putting up of lights and decorations isn't just what distinguishes this particular set of neighbors from the rest of his neighbors, it's what actually did the work of informing Stanley that these particular neighbors thinks it's officially Christmastime. I think a comma after neighbors makes this clearer.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 12:20 AM
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30: I'll ask for a comma on the rotating-head deer. Deal?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 12:36 AM
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32

I saw Christmas displays in a couple of stores up here a almost two weeks ago. I guess when your Thanksgiving is in mid-October, there's no reason to pretend to wait.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 12:54 AM
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33

Comma see, comma saw.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 12:54 AM
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34

Comma kew saw.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 7:01 AM
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31: Deal.

Commaty!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 8:23 AM
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36

No commant.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 8:28 AM
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Comma kew saw, kew see
Whatever will be , will be


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 8:28 AM
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38

Comma see, comma do.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 5:22 PM
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39

Slow down there, commasabe.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 9:51 PM
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40

There's some straight up commanism goin' on here.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 9:54 PM
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41

You hear about the new bookstore/bakery they got opening, Stanley? Surely you must have. They've got these ads all over the place, "GO COMMA 'N DOUGH!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 9:57 PM
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41: And do they call each other Commarades? It's not an accident. COMMANISM.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:04 PM
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43

You all gotta comma down.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:12 PM
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44

If unfogged is turning into alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe, I guess I have to accept partial blame.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:13 PM
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45

Commas are just fallen apostrophes. In other news, I am no longer physically capable of typing the word apostrophe without ending it r-space-backspace-backspace.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:14 PM
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46

Or think of it as a commapliment.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:17 PM
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47

THE APOSTROPHER HAS CROSSED ME.


Posted by: OPINIONATED RUBRICOMMACOM | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:18 PM
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48

Commas are just fallen apostrophes.

Apostrophes are just comma-angels.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:21 PM
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49

Comma, lye faithful.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:21 PM
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50

I keep a record of all interestingly punctuated phrases I read in my comma place book.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:23 PM
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51

Hey, everyone. Come on. Gather round. Okay, good. Let's mark this day. No, no. no you in the back shhhhh! Let's mark this day.

This was apo's comma-uppance.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:23 PM
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52

The grammar police lock up the accused in cells near the Court of Comma, Please.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:26 PM
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53

What would this thread be worth, if we traded it? Like a commadity?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:27 PM
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54

I'm bored. I'm going to go play on my Commadore 64.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:28 PM
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55

That's where I'm a Commodoriole.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:28 PM
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56

53: That heebie, such a commacialist!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:29 PM
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57

You can learn about more exotic punctuation in the Comma Sutra.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:33 PM
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58

But before then, there's the comma hither look.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:45 PM
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59

Do it right and you can have anyone in your clause. They will ask you to stop talking and say: "You had me at ','."


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:47 PM
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Which is why this is often referred to as the "Comma'n Era", or briefly, "C,E".


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 10:52 PM
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61

That notation will not survive the Second Commaing.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:05 PM
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62

Which will happen when the process of comma deification is complete.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:09 PM
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63

In medieval Europe, some people claimed to have visions of the comma deity, but some revisionists argue that they may have been having ellipsileptic fits.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:12 PM
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64

63: That's unsurprising. Medieval Europeans are surprisingly comma-politan.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:16 PM
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65

Sometimes they were persecuted by the Inquisition and subjected to the horrors of the splice until they recanted. Fortunately, today we have the separation: church, state.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:17 PM
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66

There's a reason Aquinas changed the title of his famous work.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:18 PM
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67

The Inquisition was a dick to a lot of people. Burned people, too, but that's not even the story. And if you're talking numbers of people whose life got different afterward, man, that's probably a book. Someone go write a book.

Or, more predictably, someone way smarter already wrote the book, and it's great, and someone here will give the head's up on that book.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:30 PM
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68

(Uh, sorry, burned people for possible crassness.)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:33 PM
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69

Nah, it's cool.


Posted by: Burned People | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:34 PM
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70

Earliest Christmas decorations we saw this year: october 17th...


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:41 PM
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I remember looking for some general book about the Inquisition a few years ago and then acknowledging that it would sit on my shelf unread for a long time, so I stopped. But I remember it being a lot more interesting than just the really bad stuff when we learned about it in the medieval survey I took (which was about the extent of my medieval history knowledge).


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:42 PM
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69: In all seriousness, there was even a bit of Inquisition history in New Mexico, or no, teo? Or elsewhere that you might want to drop knowledge about? I think I thought you were on that case, too, a bit.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:46 PM
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73

This book, which is somewhat difficult and has caused some controversy, uses Inquisition records for New Mexico.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:48 PM
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74

Thanks, eb.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:52 PM
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75

Where there were Spanish Catholics, there was the Inquisition. (At least until the early 19th century).


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:55 PM
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76

I bet they were always expecting it, too.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-22-09 11:57 PM
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77

I haven't read the book in 73, but I have seen it and considered reading it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:07 AM
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78

In all seriousness, there was even a bit of Inquisition history in New Mexico, or no, teo? Or elsewhere that you might want to drop knowledge about?

More or less. The Inquisition itself never actually came to NM as far as I know, but it did summon people from NM down to Mexico City for interrogation (and sometimes ended up burning them). For a variety of reasons, mostly tied to its frontier nature and extreme distance from the authorities, colonial NM was considered something of a hotbed of heresy.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:10 AM
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79

Netanyahu's dad wrote a (very controversial) book on the origins of the Inquisition.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:10 AM
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80

One thing to keep in mind is the distinction between the medieval European Inquisition and the early modern Spanish Inquisition. Totally different institutions.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:12 AM
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77: You should read it, if only to pick at it. When we read it for a graduate seminar, it was paired with a set of readings from Pueblo women (I think just women) excoriating Gutierrez. We didn't have time to really talk about their criticisms and the rest of the book, which saddens me, because I still don't have a firm grasp on the good and bad parts of the book. FWIW, I know that a professor with New Mexican roots assigns it to undergrads pretty regularly.

79: I read much of that in a grad course on early modern Spain. It was, uh, interesting.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:14 AM
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You should read it, if only to pick at it.

I'm sure I will at some point. If and when I do I'll write something about it. I've heard that it was controversial, but not having read it I don't have a clear sense of what exactly he was arguing.

I read much of that in a grad course on early modern Spain. It was, uh, interesting.

My dad read it in grad school. I mostly just remember seeing it on the bookshelf and thinking about how long it must have been. That was one huge book.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:19 AM
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83

Looks like the Gutierrez book is checked out of all four libraries at Rutgers that have it. Guess it'll have to wait.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:23 AM
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84

New Mexico: the Greenland of Spain.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:30 AM
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85

I remember it being the kind of book that's considered brilliant or groundbreaking or some similar adjective for its interpretation, but controversial for how that interpretation is related to the source base. I felt like I needed to know more about religious studies/history to really get some of it.

what exactly he was arguing

Marriage structured inequality.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:40 AM
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To be clear, in 85 I mean simply that I remember it being an area where there just isn't a lot of historical evidence in existence, and that what there is can be read in different ways, not anything scandalous or outside the norm.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:50 AM
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Netanyahu's dad wrote a (very controversial) book on the origins of the Inquisition.

Lemme guess: it was the Palestinians' fault?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 8:32 AM
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88

On the OP (kind of), I think that the massivication of Halloween has acted as a sort of firewall to Christmas really bleeding into October: the sorts of people who would seriously consider putting up Xmas decorations while baseball is still being played have instead turned into people who install inflated Death's coaches on their lawns.

OTOH, I live in a city and don't shop at many chain stores, so I may be a bit sheltered from all this. Certainly Home Depot had Christmas stuff for sale pre-Halloween.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 8:36 AM
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New Mexico: the Greenland of Spain.

Pretty much, yeah.

Marriage structured inequality.

That doesn't sound very controversial.

I remember it being an area where there just isn't a lot of historical evidence in existence, and that what there is can be read in different ways

This is definitely true, though, and it's a constant issue in the historiography of colonial New Mexico.

Lemme guess: it was the Palestinians' fault?

Pretty close. My understanding (not having read the book myself) is that he basically chalks it up to antisemitism on the part of the Spanish.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:23 AM
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90

Where there were Spanish Catholics, there was the Inquisition.

Putting the Germans in charge isn't necessarily an improvement.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:29 AM
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Where there were Spanish Catholics, there was the Inquisition.

What no one really expects is that there was a Portuguese Inquisition, too. True story.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:31 AM
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92

They mostly just talked you to death, though, so it wasn't as bad.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:33 AM
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93

Pretty close. My understanding (not having read the book myself) is that he basically chalks it up to antisemitism on the part of the Spanish.

Not the Moors?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:37 AM
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They mostly just talked you to death, though, so it wasn't as bad.

As expected.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:38 AM
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95

That doesn't sound very controversial.

I believe that the really controversial part was how he depicted pre-colonial sexual practices of Pueblo Indians. The standard argument is that he somewhat uncritically accepts colonial documents detailing native sexual practices and that he indulges in a great deal of speculation, much of which turned out to be offensive to modern Puebloans.

My understanding (not having read the book myself) is that he basically chalks it up to antisemitism on the part of the Spanish.

That fits with my recollections as well.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:49 AM
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96

Meanwhile, in England, they were all "Tea and cake or death?"


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:49 AM
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97

65.last ftw.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:52 AM
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98

The standard argument is that he somewhat uncritically accepts colonial documents detailing native sexual practices and that he indulges in a great deal of speculation, much of which turned out to be offensive to modern Puebloans.

Now that sounds really problematic. Those colonial documents were written mostly by priests with considerable biases and axes to grind. I've seen some of that stuff quoted in other scholarship and I would be very hesitant to rely on it at all. Of course, there aren't really any other sources for precontact sexual practices, so he seems to be in something of an inherent bind.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:54 AM
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99

Of course, as always it depends on the specifics. It does make me want to read the book and judge for myself.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:55 AM
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100

It does make me want to read the book

Perv.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 11:56 AM
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101

97: Everybody's a commadian.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:05 PM
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98: If you have access to JSTOR, here is an article with sample criticisms of the book.

The thing that muddles it for me is that I just can't imagine Guiterrez isn't aware of the problems with colonial documents, but it seems that perhaps he went too far in his interpretations.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 12:22 PM
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103

Thanks. The criticisms in that review are pretty damning, but the reviewer is obviously coming from her own disciplinary and ideological background. Again, I think I'd have to read the book to see how accurate it really is.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 1:09 PM
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104

OT: We are so fucking doomed.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 4:27 PM
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104: That is a silly article.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 4:32 PM
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106

This, on the other hand, is a serious article.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 4:35 PM
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107

But on the other hand is a golden band.


Posted by: Randy Travis | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 4:38 PM
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108

Child Whispering
is kinda dumb.
On the other hand
I have four fingers and a thumb.
Burma Shave.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 4:41 PM
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109

Netanyahu pere left Israel after independence because he felt that his old comrades, Begin and Shamir, were Arab loving sellout bleeding heart liberals. From what I remember hearing about it the book argues that there isn't really any difference between the racial antisemitism of the Nazis and that of Spaniards at the time of the Inquisition, and that hatred of Jews is a permanent and unalterable part of Christian civilization. The rather prominent old school Zionist head of Jewish studies at my department hated Netanyahu's guts, saw him as a Jewish Nazi and refused to allow the book to be taught in any history course, his or others.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 5:06 PM
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OT: We are so fucking doomed.

I know, you put a choke chain on a kid one time and everybody freaks out.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 5:28 PM
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109: Yes, the book is hugely anachronistic. He tries to make limpieza de sangre and racial pseudoscience into exactly the same thing; I seem to recall a lot of the argument waving away the historical actualities with a lot of "This is how it was, because I say so." As for whether or not to teach it, it seems to me that every once in awhile you do need to give an example of how not to do it.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 5:32 PM
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112

Worker's slave, the rich get more . . .

Great album


Posted by: propagandhi | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 5:52 PM
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113

Please excuse the typo; I don't think they were suggesting the worker owned a slave.


Posted by: propagandhi | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 5:55 PM
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114

That doesn't sound very controversial.

I was trying, and apparently failing, to mess with the search results.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 11-23-09 7:03 PM
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