The airlines do provide a reasonable number of larger seats. They usually charge much more than double for them and that is how they make enough money to pay the government to pay the guy who makes sure you don't have more than 4 ounces of shampoo.
Yeah, I think the question is whether they should be mandated to sell two seats in an exit row for the price of one to passengers who need it. I'm really not sure.
I'm embarrassed to realize that your no-brainer solution had never occurred to me. I had always stopped at the thought that, as unfair as it is, they should have to pay for two seats, as it's not really fair to their fellow passengers. Although, the process of deciding who requires the extra space might be a little fraught.
I'm guessing that guy shouldn't be in the exit row as he's not getting out the window exit very quickly (or at all).
Point of view one: He needs more seats; he should buy them.
Point of view two: This is a disability that can be reasonably accommodated, and the airline could do so, either by moving him to first class or by giving him two adjacent seats. Of course, they really need to know that in advance. Would having to say "Hi, yes, I'm really large" deter people from trying to abuse it? Or could the airline just un-abuse it by treating the abuse situation as a slight underbooking and letting some standby person into the not-really-needed seat?
5.1 is my view.
5.2 is only popular among disability rights advocates, very large people, and Uruguayan Rugby players.
Would having to say "Hi, yes, I'm really large" deter people from trying to abuse it?
I'm going to need adjacent seats for me and my enormous penis. No, it isn't hand-stretched. I have a disability, dammit.
This is a disability that can be reasonably accommodated
This logic would of course extend to seats at sporting events, etc.
Also, I'm going to need the seat immediately behind me to remain empty, because I have a disability that causes me to be very uncomfortable when I can't recline my seat (in good conscience) over the course of a multi-hour flight.
9: I'm near-sighted with poor peripheral vision, so I'm going to need to be in the first row on the 50 yard line.
Would having to say "Hi, yes, I'm really large" deter people from trying to abuse it?
Given an accommodation for people of size x, I would expect that the number of people willing to disrupt the entire air transportation system by claiming to qualify would vastly exceed the number of people who actually qualified.
I have horrible flatulence, so for the sake of humanity, I should be given my own private plane.
I think this photo captures exactly how everyone already feels on a booked flight. I really can't imagine how it must feel to fly for someone north of 6'4".
13: Go Greyhound and no one will notice.
Although geez are the comments to that picture unpleasant.
I am divided against myself: I do not wish to make more difficult the lives of people who fail the second- or third-* most-important test in American life so obviously, but I do not want airlines to cede their responsibilities for the safety of other passengers (obstructed aisles, rows, etc.) to the "/fail" blogworld.
* After "be white" and/or "be a man."
I really can't imagine how it must feel to fly for someone north of 6'4".
Calvary.
I'm trying not to agree with 5.1, but I'm having difficulty not putting myself in the shoes of a small, struggling airline forced to comply with heebie's proposed new regs.
What percent of the population do you imagine would even qualify for XL seats?
I am considerably south of 6'4", and I too find airplane seats to be acutely uncomfortable. I just assume that the designers figured that since they couldn't design for just one body type, the only fair thing would be to devise a seat that sucks for everyone. (First-class seats are proof, of course, that they could do better if they fucking well tried.)
21: Or, if you really valued being more comfortable, you could fucking well book a first class seat...
20- No one else in the plane seems to be in the same situation, and since this photo is notable (you don't see this every time you fly,) I'd say
I'd say that html tags suck.
I'd say <<1%.
Obesity is a choice, with very few exceptions. When did choices become disabilities? Buy two seats or close your mouth once in a while. You can't escape thermodynamics.
22: The Flippanlightened One is 6'4" and has attended many a Good Friday service.
26 appears to be written by an asshole. Take it to the linked thread.
I was reading about that picture someplace where they were describing the airline's various policies, which I believe were all some version of "if you can't get the armrests all the way down when you're in the seat, you may be required to buy a second seat", but I also think all of them would give you the second seat free if the flight wasn't full.
23: Instead, I exercise my power as a consumer by choosing almost never to fly. Nice try, Capitalism, but I've outwitted you again!
Assholeness is a disability, he should have a whole row to himself so that no one has to listen to him.
26: Neuroscience has elided the meaning of "choice" near unto vacancy but, setting that aside, I think it is possible to draw a useful distinction between thinking of obesity as a positive "choice" among equally-available options and believing that obese persons have the potential to improve their health and appearance.
30: I spent hours trying to talk myself into taking Amtrack for my last big trip. There was just no way.
31: Damn straight. I'm flying on the weekend.
33: Likewise, which is why I had to use "almost."
35: If they'd put a "Thomas" face on the front of the engine and dressed the conductor like Sir Topham Hatt, I'd have to choice but to take the train.
36 is also my plan to get them to re-install the trolley on Forbes in Pittsburgh. What's a couple of billion against wowing a whole bunch of whiny 2-5 year-old boys.
A musical explanation of the problem.
Is anyone else wondering if the photo is staged or photoshopped just so people could make fun of it? It looks implausible that the airlines would let him on the plane if he was going to block the aisle like that.
26 appears to be written by an asshole. Take it to the linked thread.
Seems to be a chronic condition in the patient.
I have a chronic problem of not signing my posts. 40 was me.
39: I notice the seats behind the guy are empty and several other seat backs don't have a head above them. I wouldn't be surprised if, even if unstaged, the photo wasn't taken while boarding was still occuring and that he wasn't blocking the aisle when the plane took-off. It might take a while to find an empty seat for the guy next to him.
- The airlines should make the bulkhead seats dissabiltiy seating
- You should have to check a box requesting dissablity seating when you buy your ticket
- Let fat people sit in dissability seating, which also allows the rest of us can be comfortable in our seats
- If the dissabled seats aren't taken for a flight, some skinny person gets a nice upgrade
- If some skinny person cheats and checks the disabled box to score the sweet bulkhead seat, then their luggage gets redirected to Kabul
43: What about skinny people whose knees seize up whe they can't stretch them out in a regular seat? Should they get bulkhead too?
40, 41: That's why we gave you adjacent comments, gimp.
44: They chose not to get their legs amputated. Fuck 'em.
"Shanna, they bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into."
43: No. As a short person, I have no sympathy for tall people who claim to be oppressed.
Being tall is a choice, and if tall people have a problem with legroom, they should have chosen to be shorter. Like they could have started smoking at an age when it would have stunted their growth, for example...
Comment 47 really hasn't aged well.
48: I too am a short person. This does not make airplane seats appreciably more comfortable, and it does lead others to think they can cop half your seat. Not cool, seat poachers!
I've lately come to hate air travel more every time I do it.
53: If you're thinking about air travel when you do it, no wonder.
I hate flying so much. I'd really like to drive to Michigan for the holiday. Except I don't want to die in a snowdrift somewhere outside Buffalo.
54: Ah, so that's the problem. Thanks!
56: Baseball is standard, if you need a distraction.
@44
They should suck it up. Or at least that's what I had to do in that circumstance. I briefly considered putting them in my neighbor's lap, but my sense of entitlement was somewhat substandard that day.
Apo put up a post. FL got tenure. Dsquared showed back up. All kinds of crazy things are happening. Perhaps baa will now reappear and defend the comfort and convenience of air travel.
It's a shame, because I actually like flying and I don't much mind the waiting around -- it's just more time to read and knit as far as I'm concerned -- but the schlep and hassle factor, especially now with the baggage fees, plus the seats make it such a drag.
I have never flown commercially.
I was in the air once at age 20, a pilot charged us 25 dollars to do loops and stuff. It was ok.
I must make a list for the tombstone that I will never have:Never flown, never voted Republican. Never had children, but there a lots of guys like that. Never seen Pickpocket or Marienbad
61.2: They guy at U.S. Air wanted $20 per passenger to do a barrel roll.
61: + "never had a tombstone".
Or maybe "never died".
61.2: When a friend was getting her license, she took me up and did some loops and free falls and barrel rolls. I'm a little nauseous still even thinking about it.
Never seen Pickpocket or Marienbad
No, bob, you did see Marienbad, last year, you just forgot it. Remember, we were standing by the statue, overlooking the garden, discussing how much it sucked?
Never seen Pickpocket AND Marienbad would still work.
64:Gonna inflict my rotting corpse on the poor medical students, of course. No service or memorial either. Family tradition.
I, bob mcmanus, being of sound mind and body and in possession of a working trebuchet, do hereby....
60 is pretty much true for me as well. I don't mind flying itself, but all the constantly increasing hassle around it has made it less and less pleasant.
Moby, I've only taken Amtrak from NC to DC, so not exactly a huge trip, but for the most part I loved it. Vastly superior experience to flying, including an unbelievably more comfortable seat with much more legroom.
I fucking hate flying, though, and would probably be happier in a boxcar with Stanley's consultant friend than on a plane. I'm going to be flying to Connecticut for a conference in a few weeks and chose the flight that is both direct and on one of the smaller jets with a row of single seats down one side because if everything else is going to suck that day - well, except for the chance to drink alone at 7am - then I am at least going to sit with no one to either side of me, my huge ass touching theirs.
I am 6'3" and convinced that 21 is true.
59: I agree with baa about the view. Flight attendants and fellow passengers, don't ask me to close the blind so that someone can sleep or watch the movie. I bought a window seat so I can look out the fucking window.
Amtrak is just an unambiguously better experience than flying in every possible way, provided there is a train that makes the trip you want in under 6 hours. Which is limiting.
71, 73: We're talking 24 hours. IIRC, arrival and departure both happened in the middle of the night.
73: I am rather fond of first class on the Acela. They feed you! And the lentil/couscous salad thingy they always have for vegetarians is good! And free booze! And you're always seated next to some weird PBS demi-celebrity.
Along the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak service is frequent, reliable, and expensive. Away from the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak service is infrequent, unreliable, and expensive.
76: On the bright side, Amtrak is the only legal way to take a piss on a railroad track.
We are in way too much of a hurry. An office worker I know spends most of her time overseas. Taiwan, Hong Kong. Singapore. London. Rome. In hotel rooms, because of the workload. 6 figure income, for what. Looks like hell to me.
There is a whole culture of flight that I long ago refused to share. If I can't get a week for the funeral 1500 miles away, I quit my job. Part of the process involves long travel time to reflect about distances.
Still thinking. Never been with a hooker. Never seen Paris. Never gambled, not even one lottery ticket. Never ran a marathon or danced a Charleston. Ahh, but like Piaf says.
The weird thing about the perpetual debate over Amtrak is the way a lot of people seem to take the view that providing good passenger rail service in the US is somehow just impossible. Amtrak does suck in a lot of ways, but from roughly 1850 to 1970 rail was the standard way to get from one US city to another and it worked fine. There were a bunch of railroads competing with each other and laying track across the country, so service was both pretty reliable and pretty cheap. Slow, of course, by today's standards, but there are faster trains now. And almost all of that track is still there.
Amtrak between Seattle and Portland isn't bad, IMLE.
I have stubby legs and don't mind airplane legroom especially, but my shoulders are wider than economy-class seats and hunching them forward for 5-10 hours gets painful.
almost all of that track is still there
I don't think that's true. There are a lot of abandoned railroad rights-of-way.
81: They turned them into bike paths. Also, I think saying that trains were still standard in 1970 is pushing it by ten years.
I don't think that's true. There are a lot of abandoned railroad rights-of-way.
You'd be surprised. There are a lot of rights-of-way that aren't currently being used, but the physical tracks are still there and there's nothing preventing them from being used again. There are also cases where the rights-of-way have been bought up and used for other purposes, but fewer than you might think. I went to a talk on this exact subject at the NJAPA conference that was really interesting.
77: Out west, there are plenty of places where we can pee on the tracks without worrying about getting busted.
80: I have the same thing with the shoulders, but traveling with two little kids helps, and also keeps me from having to sit next to strangers.
83: I was reacting to the "almost all". I don't doubt that there are a lot of rights-of-way out there that could be put into railroad use, but "almost all" isn't consistent with my experience (which may be so incomplete as to be meaningless; I dunno).
And you're always seated next to some weird PBS demi-celebrity.
I sat next to John Burn/ett (NPR, same difference) once on a Southwest flight. He tried to talk me into switching seats with him because I had snagged the one that doesn't have another seat in front of it. (He's somewhere north of 6'4".) But I told him that I'd gotten to the airport super early for just that purpose on account of my freakishly long legs so he could SUCK IT. No, actually, he was quite nice and I was quite nice and we had an interesting chat. I did offer to switch seats with him halfway through, though he declined.
I believe I've told this fascinating story before.
I think somebody should try inter-city river boats. Pittsburgh to St. Louis or something. If that's too exciting, Omaha to Sioux City. You could put the Sioux City port right at the confluence of the Missouri and Floyd Rivers.
Away from the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak service is infrequent, unreliable, and expensive.
I've also used it in SoCal and it was fairly convenient. A bit crowded, though; more like taking NJ Transit than Amtrak in the NEC.
84.2: I've been using the kid thing too, but the kid in question went to school in a pair of my hand-me-down shoes today, so that isn't going to work a lot longer. And it doesn't help at all with work trips (the occasional HNL-DCA is a particular treat).
Somebody wants to use the freight rail lines to for intra-city passenger rail in Pittsburgh. You could go from the part of Hazelwood where nobody lives to the part of Oakland that is 3/4 of a mile (and a 500 below) the actual places of people need to get to.
I was reacting to the "almost all". I don't doubt that there are a lot of rights-of-way out there that could be put into railroad use, but "almost all" isn't consistent with my experience (which may be so incomplete as to be meaningless; I dunno).
I don't have any exact numbers, obviously, but what I took away from the conference presentation is that at least in the northeast, the vast majority of the rights-of-way really are just sitting there unused. This is important because the northeast is so developed at this point that buying up new rights-of-way would be prohibitively expensive, so new rail projects would be impossible unless there were a whole bunch of rights-of-way lying around. Which, conveniently, there are.
Outside the northeast this may not be the case, but outside the northeast it doesn't matter as much either. In my own experience in the interior west, it seems like most of the rights-of-way are still in active use, but exclusively for freight rather than passenger service.
Is Heebie going to be mad that we are no long discussing ass-size and have shifted to transit policy?
When NM put in the RailRunner, for example, they initially just used the existing freight tracks through Albuquerque, so all the state had to do was negotiate with BNSF for the use of the tracks, then buy some trains and hire people to run them.
92: Maybe, but she could hardly be surprised.
Fat people on airplanes as a topic suffers from the fact that a lot more of us have had the experience of sitting next to a fat person on an airplane than have had the experience of being a fat person on an airplane.
As I understand it, every railroad line in Pennsylvania had its tracks removed over the past 20 years to be turned into a bike trail, except the ones currently used for freight.
93: Isn't there an issue with a lot of freight tracks being in pretty crappy shape?
79
The weird thing about the perpetual debate over Amtrak is the way a lot of people seem to take the view that providing good passenger rail service in the US is somehow just impossible. Amtrak does suck in a lot of ways, but from roughly 1850 to 1970 rail was the standard way to get from one US city to another and it worked fine. There were a bunch of railroads competing with each other and laying track across the country, so service was both pretty reliable and pretty cheap. Slow, of course, by today's standards, but there are faster trains now. And almost all of that track is still there.
Film cameras worked fine too but they couldn't compete with digital. And trains mostly aren't competitive with planes and cars.
96: That may well be true in PA, but it's definitely not in NJ.
When a friend was getting her license, she took me up and did some loops and free falls and barrel rolls. I'm a little nauseous still even thinking about it.
I went up in a tandem paraglider with a sponsored aerobatic pilot a couple of times. I learned that I am unexpectedly habituated to knowing which direction the ground is in, as a sort of groundwork for any use of my senses whatsoever.
Isn't there an issue with a lot of freight tracks being in pretty crappy shape?
Not really, at least for freight tracks currently being used. Freight tracks actually have to meet more stringent standards than passenger tracks, at least for weight. Freight is heavy.
And trains mostly aren't competitive with planes and cars.
Mostly because right now carbon emissions are free.
I want to ride that RailRunner thingie next time I'm in town.
103: Me too. Somehow I never got around to it, even when I was living in NM. Part of the problem is that public transportation within Albuquerque sucks so much that it's ridiculously hard to get to the RailRunner stations from most parts of town, unless you just drive.
102
Mostly because right now carbon emissions are free.
Not really. Trains emit carbon also. If I remember correctly Amtrak is only marginally better (if at all) than cars or planes per passenger mile.
Not really, at least for freight tracks currently being used. Freight tracks actually have to meet more stringent standards than passenger tracks, at least for weight. Freight is heavy.
But freight doesn't care about ride quality and doesn't have to move fast.
Along the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak service is frequent, reliable, and expensive. Away from the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak service is infrequent, unreliable, and expensive.
Teo, it pains me to disagree with you, but this is all wrong. Along the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak service is frequent, totally unreliable, and expensive. In southern California, I am delighted to discover, Amtrak service is frequent enough, reliable, and cheap. I would be writing love letters to the Amtrak brass if only the train actually ran to LAX. Abbreviating the (miles-distant) LA Union Station as "LAX" is a poor approximation.
I'll concede that SoCal Amtrak does a bad job of connecting to the rest of the world, e.g., NM; I looked into taking the train home for Thanksgiving, but it only runs the right way three days a week. Inadequate.
On preview, pwned by essear by a mile and a half.
If I remember correctly Amtrak is only marginally better (if at all) than cars or planes per passenger mile.
This may be true for Amtrak specifically, but in general trains emit way less carbon than any other method of transportation, and planes emit way more.
105: I don't know whether or not that's accurate, but I wonder what happens when you factor in fuel consumption and air quality.
But freight doesn't care about ride quality and doesn't have to move fast.
True, but in most cases the differences are pretty minor, I think. I'll admit that I don't have detailed information about this.
Teo, it pains me to disagree with you, but this is all wrong. Along the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak service is frequent, totally unreliable, and expensive.
Yeah, that was actually a very glib statement, and I don't stand by it at all.
LA Union Station is in a much more useful part of town than LAX, and it has a rad bar.
108: And US train technology is way, way behind Europe and Japan.
110.1: I think I'm relying on vaguely-remembered Atrios and Sausagely posts, so we're pretty much even on that. Speed may be a bigger factor than ride quality because it affects what grades and curve radii will work.
109: IIRC, this ends up being very dependent on assumptions about how full each is. Comparing 'trains' to 'planes' in the abstract doesn't work, you need to figure out how many seats are filled on each to do the math in passenger-miles.
On preview, pwned by essear by a mile and a half.
But you added value.
If (big person) gets two seats, do they also get duplicate meals and sodas as they eat/drink 'for two' ?
Page 11 of this GAO report has a good chart of energy use per passenger-mile by mode. Air used to be the highest by a lot, but it's recently improved a lot and is now actually less than cars. Rail is still the lowest, but by less than it used to be, and buses are the highest. This is energy use, not emissions, and emissions will be slightly different because different modes use different fuels, but the overall effect should be similar since they're all fossil fuels.
Not really. Trains emit carbon also. If I remember correctly Amtrak is only marginally better (if at all) than cars or planes per passenger mile.
Planes are generally the worst; fuel-efficient cars packed as full as they get might beat trains, I think, but it all comes down to differences at the factor of two level, not orders of magnitude. Driving a Prius versus an SUV or filling your car with 4 people instead of 1, then, can make car travel as efficient as trains. But I'm pretty sure that if I take, for instance, a train from NY to DC, and I'm traveling alone, I'm using less carbon than I if I drive my fuel-efficient but non-Prius car by myself, and much less carbon than taking a plane. (Longer flights do a bit better than shorter ones, in terms of carbon impact per mile, but are still pretty bad.)
Ah, reading further into the pdf I see that a chart on page 17 has global carbon dioxide emissions by sector. Transportation accounts for 20%, of which 74% is from road and 13% each from air and rail.
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Goddam pro se plaintiffs. One of my agencies got sued by this mentally ill dude over some fines that he incurred back in 1990-91 and didn't challenge at the time. I, after about a year and a half of his not showing up for things and then moving to vacate his default, get the stupid thing dismissed. Now he's written to Governor Paterson about (a) how mean the agency was and (b) how I, by name, took unfair advantage of him. In the paragraph about me, he puts the words "verifiably mentally challenged misfit" in quotes as if I'd ever said anything of the sort to or about him.
And you know, this wouldn't bother me from one of the pro ses that start out with the yelling and the unpleasantness, but this guy I'd never had an unpleasant interaction with. He was wrong, but not difficult, and I put a lot of effort into treating him respectfully and making sure he knew the implications of everything I was doing. Feh.
On the other hand, he's not making phone calls shouting at me and hasn't sued the state for a million dollars because I got his case dismissed, so I suppose he's not my worst pro se.
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Pwned by teo with his actual "facts" and "data".
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Not that this is any practical problem for me in either case. Just annoying.
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118: Do you see any clear statement of their assumptions of how full these cars/planes/etc are? Is this supposed to be average occupancy of the average vehicle?
I remember a few years back, an very plus size on a flight going nutes. He actually had bought two seats to accomoodate his extra size, but the dipshits at the airline counter kept telling him that because the plane was full, they couldn't give him two adjacent seats. True story.
125: That's tremendously awful. I've certainly seen the airline make announcements (and throw in sweeteners) asking for folks to switch seats to let two people (usually a mom and kid) sit together. They can certainly do the same for one dude who tried to do the right thing.
David MacKay has a chart showing energy requirements per passenger-kilometre for various forms of transport. Number of passengers is important: a (European-size) car full of passengers does pretty well (only 10 times the energy requirement of bicycles) but a car with only a driver sucks: it uses more energy per passenger-kilometre than an averagely-full Boeing 747.
Ah, here we go. This pdf has detailed tables and charts showing energy intensity per passenger-mile for all modes. (Data sources are listed in this one.) Planes are better than cars, but worse than rail. Motorcycles are the best.
The radiative forcing of carbon emissions high in the atmosphere is much worse than on the ground, so it may be that planes are only unambiguously the worst once that is factored in.
129: I've seen another table somewhere that had more data than this, which showed intercity buses as the most energy efficient widely-available mode of long-distance transportation.
131: Which the table in 128 does seem to bear out, although the legibility is a bit off.
Well, I'm off. It's shank's mare for me tonight.
Basically it all depends on what you measure and how. As per 128, number of passengers makes a huge difference. Some of the charts in the link in 130 compare different light rail systems in the US, and the variation is huge.
101: Freight is heavy.
So are passengers at times. See original post.
130
The radiative forcing of carbon emissions high in the atmosphere is much worse than on the ground, so it may be that planes are only unambiguously the worst once that is factored in.
It is my understanding that the atmosphere is well-mixed so it doesn't matter where you introduce CO2.
the variation is huge
Geez, you aren't kidding. Are Galveston's rail cars made of lumps of burning coal?
What surprises me a little bit is how bad buses look. I knew all the empty ones on less-used routes and at odd hours had to be pulling the average down, but worse than SUVs is surprising.
112
And US train technology is way, way behind Europe and Japan.
Don't know about Japan but the US rail system is optimized for freight while Europe's is optimized for passengers. Rail accounts for a much higher fraction of freight ton-miles in the US than in Europe.
139: Would be interesting to see what those numbers look like if you take out coal trains.
It is my understanding that the atmosphere is well-mixed so it doesn't matter where you introduce CO2.
Some gases in the atmosphere are well-mixed, including CO2, so, yes, what I said was stupid.
Other gases like ozone have differing impact depending on where they're emitted. Google turns up claims that the radiative forcing impact of air travel is ~ 2 to 3 times the effect of CO2 alone, but some of the sources say this includes the effect of contrails, and contrails are short-lived, so I'm not convinced this number makes sense.
So maybe the CO2 number is the thing to go by, and planes aren't worse than cars after all, on average.
Teo, are you going to graduate in school in something like urban planning? Because the last thing this blog needs is more people with actual knowledge. I'm already afraid to explain that both e and π are basically the same since they round to 3. And all of the lawyers keep me from explaining how the 3rd Amendment can be read to prohibit Amway. If I had to stop spouting urban planning nonsense based on my vast experience of living in a city of barely 300,000, I might run out of things to say.
And my sympathies to LB on 121. Some people have way too much time on their hands and way too little clue in their heads.
142: Just talk about actuarial work and water policy and you'll be fine.
140: Pretty different, I'd think. Coal accounts for 44% of US freight rail tonnage.
Teo, are you going to graduate in school in something like urban planning?
Yes.
144: Actually, I've been wondering about water policy. Why do they keep telling me to turn-off the water when I brush my teeth, but apparently it's O.K. to run the water while I shave? Maybe I should stop getting my water saving tips from books for children.
146: Then good luck. Come to Pittsburgh when you're done. I have a plan to re-build a trolley system.
I have a plan to re-build a trolley system.
Does it involve fat men?
If I had to stop spouting urban planning nonsense based on my vast experience of living in a city of barely 300,000, I might run out of things to say.
There are lots of niches that no one here covers, right? You could rattle on about archaeology or chemistry or beekeeping or...
Don't let life or death stand in the way of that sublime and funky trolley system that you crave!
149: No. Step one is clearing out all of the cars that park where I want to run the trolley. I'm going to need a sling-shot, six thousand ball bearings, a police scanner and a look-out. I'm thinking after a couple of weeks, nobody will use those spaces.
As someone who used to travel Amtrak in the NEC quite often, I'm happy to rise to its defense. Sure you can have train delays. Have you ever been on a plane? Driven the NJ Turnpike? All travel in the NEC sucks. At distances of DC-NYC and less, Amtrak sucks less than the alternatives.
(From DC to Manhattan, Amtrak is pretty good, especially in the summer, when afternoon flights get canceled out of LGA. I'd still fly, though, if going from DC to the EDNY, for example.)
Amtrak never lost my luggage. The quiet car is a great idea (less important now that noise canceling headphones are pretty good -- but whoever the idiot is that insists that they be switched off while you sit on the tarmac, or during take-off and landing, must be a paid agent for Amtrak. Or Big Crying Baby.)
Amtrak is good for solo travel at short distances. Any more than one person, though, and the car just kills it on costs.
Amtrak is good for travel between big cities, though it's still super-expensive. For shorter distances than, say, NYC-Philadelphia, though, it's worthless because the trains run so infrequently. (These two things are not unconnected.) New Brunswick, for example, gets two Amtrak trains a day, on in each direction.
But NJ Transit trains are frequent and can connect with Amtrak at Trenton or Newark.
though it's still super-expensive
It's ~$100. This doesn't seem to me to rise to the level of "super-expensive". It's cheaper than planes.
But NJ Transit trains are frequent and can connect with Amtrak at Trenton or Newark.
Yep. That's why Amtrak's lack of service doesn't actually matter. They're also much cheaper.
It's ~$100. This doesn't seem to me to rise to the level of "super-expensive". It's cheaper than planes.
"Cheaper than planes" is a pretty low bar, though, especially if you're only traveling like 100 miles. But preferences differ, of course.
Lots of trains from Philly to NYC. Full of people who don't want to waste time stopping in New Brunswick.
Amtrak has been studying re-opening the line across southern Montana. It'd run at a loss, but not such much that it isn't worth having.
The other thing I was going to point out in Amtrak's favor, for solo business travel, is that you can plug in your laptop, and you have Verizon coverage pretty much all the way. It's true that you could do this in a car, if you have someone else to drive, but, then, that's not solo travel. Work on the train sucks so much less than work on a plane -- other than in first class, the latter is so awful that most corporations ought to just have a presumption of disallowing lawyers' billed hours for work on the flight out. (And, of course, work on the flight back from the deposition is an even weaker claim).
This seems the appropriate place to remind anyone who's in the NYC area and interested in this sort of stuff to visit the MTA Transit Museum.
Five bucks buys you several interesting hours in a now-out-of-use subway station that's been converted to a wonderfully detailed museum dedicated to the history of the
city's subway, bridges, and various rail companies. I could've nerded out there for several more hours, but they were closing.
I'm not sure who Charley is trying to convince of what, but I certainly agree that Amtrak is a much better choice for traveling from DC of Philly to NYC than flying, and that the fact that the trains don't stop in places like New Brunswick is part of the reason.
Work on the train sucks so much less than work on a plane -- other than in first class, the latter is so awful that most corporations ought to just have a presumption of disallowing lawyers' billed hours for work on the flight out. (And, of course, work on the flight back from the deposition is an even weaker claim).
Then lawyers will want to talk to the regular people on the plane. Flying will become unbearable.
I mean, that's the whole point of this thread, isn't it?
It would be nice if the SEPTA / NJ Transit connections in Trenton were more efficient.
It's 10 and a half hours by train from Pittsburgh to NYC. Its like 6 by car. The train stops at every town on the line.
There's a never-to-be-built stimulus budget for planning high speed rail when they could improve things by 50% just be not stopping so often.
I blame the well-maintained socialized roadways for all or most of our transit woes, what with their crazy left-turn czars and lack of hobo consultants.
173: I have a cousin whose a railroad bull.
presumption of disallowing lawyers' billed hours for work on the flight out. (And, of course, work on the flight back from the deposition is an even weaker claim)
Since the travel time itself is generally (always?) billable, that would be an odd policy. (Unless lawyers are billing the time worked during travel to other clients, which seems like a bad idea, for the reason you mention.)
176: "But-For" billing? As in, "But for me traveling on business, I wouldn't have needed to go to the strip club."
It's ~$100. This doesn't seem to me to rise to the level of "super-expensive". It's cheaper than planes.
But you can get a bus for less than $20.
Really? I live right by the transit museum. I'll have to check that out.
179: To be fair, we saw lots of people breezing through, but eekbeat and I wanted to read everything and greatly enjoyed it. It's an interesting place for the transit-policy nerd or transit-nerd wannabe (Cf. me).
180: When are you going to graduate school? (I've lost teo and eb, so I might as well turn my attention to you.)
181: I have a personal deadline set for June, upon which time I plan to assess whether playing in bands (the only reason I'm not in grad school) is still worth it. Fall semester 2010 would be my earliest possible entry, but I may take a U.Va. class Spring semester, just for kicks.
182: What field? I hear that urban history is fun.
Urban history is fun. I just wrote a paper on the history of Albuquerque. The paper wasn't great but doing the research for it was interesting.
183: That's sort of the rub. I like some of the options at SAIS and GMU on something like a MPP. I also wonder if I'd be better off at something like the Annenberg school at Penn or even a straight-up history thing in Latin American History (I'd focus most on the experiences of Latinos in the US right now, but still, something like the Braceros program is, to me, fascinating.)
I've haved trouble figuring out a discipline.
I'll post it to the blog at some point.
I've haved troubled typing English, two.
You could rattle on about archaeology or chemistry or beekeeping or...
I seem to recall that there is actually a California cohort involved with beekeeping. But archaeology does seem to still be to open.
OT: Garry Wills is down on Brother Obama.
189: So what's Chaco Canyon, chopped liver?
186: Latin American history is actually something of a growth industry. Beyond that, there's very good reason to avoid history as a discipline -- if you want to get a job, I mean.
191: No surprise. Dsquared told Garry he was going to be disappointed.
190: I'll almost certainly be applying to that one among other NY-ish ones, given eekbeat's locale.
Heh. (That means I think what you wrote is funny, right? I'm not so hip to the internet traditions thing and want to make sure my "heh" isn't read as sarcastic. I'm very vulnerable right now, but don't worry about it.)
195: Cool. Feel free to ask me if you have any questions about it.
191: The NYRoB has blogs now? What is the world coming to?
Also, fuck a bunch of Garry Wills. (Not about the linked post; I didn't read it. Just on general principle.)
200: Why? I'm not arguing, mind you, just curious.
But now that I've read it, fuck a bunch of Garry Wills for that post in particular too.
The thought of "a bunch of Garry Wills" is kind of freaking me out.
You may need to work your way up to it by only fucking one or two Garry Wills.
201: Honestly, I gave up on him so long ago I don't really remember specific reasons at this point. (Bear in mind, I only know his work in the NYRoB; I've never read any of his books.) Mostly my reaction to him was "meh", although I do recall an exchange he had with one of my college professors in the letters column that made me realize that flamewars predated the Internet.
But as for the linked post, fuck him for suggesting that it would have been better to elect McCain than to be betrayed by Obama. I would have thought that 8 years of Bush would have discredited that particular line of thinking (and fuck you too, Ralph Nader), but what do I know.
given eekbeat's locale
I've been meaning to ask you, Stanley, what's she doing in NYC? You may have mentioned it elsewhere, but I was dropping in and out for a spell.
207: NYCTF if you want an acronym to google. She's co-teaching sixth graders with some sort of learning disability who have been mainstreamed with other kids, all in a bilingual school.
Sounds like a tough job, especially in a school system like NYC. I hope it's going well for her.
140 145
Lots more (pdf file) about rail freight share in the United States and Europe.
Amtrak does suck in a lot of ways, but from roughly 1850 to 1970 rail was the standard way to get from one US city to another and it worked fine. There were a bunch of railroads competing with each other and laying track across the country, so service was both pretty reliable and pretty cheap.
This is oddly positive, given the problems of overcapacity, rate wars, railroads controlling territories during periods when they kept competitors out, etc. On the other hand, lots of that did work out well for passengers, until the railroads managed to dump passenger service altogether by the 1970s, at which point passenger rail had been in trouble for a while. Nowadays, I read somewhere that the freights are doing so well, that one of them actually laid new track somewhere in the past couple of years.
The Saunders Main Lines and Merging Lines are supposed to be pretty good overviews of 20th century rail.
Also, back when I read the California high speed rail blog, it appeared that Amtrak California was doing pretty well, as Amtraks go. But that was before the recession got really bad.
176 -- Frequently not billable, ime. But you probably don't work in rate conscious fields.
the NYRoB
An acquaintance I have who works there abbreviates it without the o. Everyone there refers to it as 'nerb' (NYRB).
Unless lawyers are billing the time worked during travel to other clients, which seems like a bad idea, for the reason you mention.
Huh? Obviously you can't bill a single client 4 hours for time spent preparing for a dep an 4 hours for travel to the dep when both are the same 4 hours. But if you finish the dep and spend the 4 hours flying back working on a second client's case, are you saying it's inappropriate to bill the second client for the time? Inappropriate to bill the first?
On Unitedd you use to be able to request an aisle seat at the gate, and they'd give you one of you wanted it, but now they charge more for extra leg room. My BF isn't fat, but his legs can get a bit tight.
Nowadays, I read somewhere that the freights are doing so well, that one of them actually laid new track somewhere in the past couple of years.
Warren Buffet bought some big rail business, because he sees it as a growth industry as long as the U.S. economy grows.
74: Utter comity, as I am flying to Connecticut rather than taking the train. I would rather be fisted by a federal employee, get drunk, strap myself to a metal tube for an hour and a half and be there than spend 13 hours getting there in the best train scenario available. I also chose driving to DC the last time I went because it was both of us and one gas tank was much cheaper than two train tickets. So, my endorsement of my one Amtrak experience - which is remembered fondly - does come with some caveats. However, were there ever a high-speed line between NC and DC I would be an instant lifelong customer.
Re; 215
I do not think it is viewed as unethical to bill for travel time (but of course one should not bil two clients for the same time). It is more a matter of many clients, particularly large corporate clients with formal billing policies, refusing to pay for travel, just as they refuse to pay for various disbursements for which one could ethically charge, but under the terms of your engagement you can't bill. Legal services is a buyer's market.
Full disclosure--I bill for travel whenever the client will pay. If the only reason I am on a plane is the client's business, I think they should pay.
I do not think it is viewed as unethical to bill for travel time
It is, however, unethical to bill for time travel. That should pay for itself.
We can't even mandate that airlines aren't allowed to hold you prisoner on the tarmac for more than three hours. The whole debate about the Passengers Bill of Rights is totally surreal.
It is, however, unethical to bill for time travel. That should pay for itself.
I think it's fair to charge for the initial cost of one copy of Grays Sports Almanac.
There's no ethical problem with billing for timetravel -- the only problem is the practical/financial difficulty of billing for negative hours worked. That gets expensive remarkably quickly.
I wouldn't think that would be an issue outside of Primer style time-travel where you actually have to sit in the thing for the amount of time you wish to travel backwards. In a more standard time travel scenario it seems like you could just keep going back to the same moment and triple or even quadruple billing for the same time period, as long as you didn't cc yourself on any e-mails and cause a paradox.
An acquaintance I have who works there abbreviates it without the o. Everyone there refers to it as 'nerb' (NYRB).
I can't be held responsible for their fallen standards. They probably spell "coöperate" without the diaeresis, too.
255: Depends on how you look at it. If I start work on Dec. 4, and finish on Nov. 30, I think I have to bill for negative five days of work.
It seems like the whole concept of opportunity cost becomes irrelevant with time travel, but you've still taken that time away from your lifespan.
220 -- Exactly. It's common to bill clients who won't pay for travel time for 'work on the plane.' If it ain't first class, it probably wasn't worth the hourly rate either.
I know that there's been extensive -- yes insane but still extensive -- work done on the economics of Tolkien's Middle Earth; in like spirit I demand that libertarians, marxists and those guys who are neither but mcmanus hates em all the more bend their diverse intellects to the political economy of Gallifrey and etc. I had a friend -- sadly he died earlier this year -- who when we were both young and argumentative would noisily insist that all science fiction was flawed, because workable space travel is only achievable under socialism, and yet it never featured. Also: these guys, who believe that "UFOs come from a socialist future or alien socialist planet" -- you stll see their stall on the larger marches or demos here in London.
workable space travel is only achievable under socialism, and yet it never featured
Wasn't that sort of the premise of Star Trek?
oops: i mean, these guys -- http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/182/posadism_for_beginners.html
oh ffs: google "posadism for beginners"
231: well my friend would not have said so, but he was quite er rigorous about what counted as socialism. Also what he meant I think was that its achievement be referenced and discussed in the fiction, rather than quietly assumed.
227: but you're going to work a specific amount of forward-time hours, right? You're not going to be working in negative time.
In terms of clock-time, if I finish before I began, that's negative time. See Young Lady v. Bright at 5.
Just bill according to the integrated proper time along your worldline, which should always be positive.
226: Garry Wills? I'm on tenterhooks here.
They probably spell "coöperate" without the diaeresis, too.
No, they use the diæresis, but they pronounce the word with only three syllables.
Just bill according to the integrated proper time along your worldline, which should always be positive.
This, of course, is what is done in practice (see, e.g., billing 27 hours in a day where you had to fly from NY to LA on business).
My hypothesis states that because travelling east to west enhances billing hours, while travelling west to east decreases billing hours, lawyers will tend to favor westerly business trips. Preliminary data suggests that the prevailing motion of lawyers is westerly at a rate of 1.11 time zones/lawyer-year. This motion could be considered as a renewable source of energy, and should be factored in to models of geologic changes in the earth's rotation and climate.
tierce, I sent you an email at the address linked to your name.
220
Full disclosure--I bill for travel whenever the client will pay. If the only reason I am on a plane is the client's business, I think they should pay.
Do you bill your full rate? It seems to me that if you are billing full rate the client deserves your full attention and sitting on a plane reading the newspaper doesn't qualify.
Do you bill your full rate?.
I do. And your point is a good one from the point of view of clients who refuse to pay for travel (or who pay at a reduced rate.) On the other hand, if I were sitting in my office instead of on the plane, I might be able to bill my full rate for someone else.
Lincoln at Gettysburg is one of my favorite books. So, fuck a bunch of Garry Wills, but in a greasy all night long sort of way.
It seems to me that if you are billing full rate the client deserves your full attention
Nah. What the client deserves is that you be performing a necessary task for the client that can't be efficiently performed by someone else more cheaply and that you couldn't do faster by devoting more attention to it. Usually, that's going to mean devoting your full attention (or at least as close as you can manage) to the task.
Travel, on the other hand, is a necessary task for the client if the client needs you in the place you're traveling to. You can't offload it onto a paralegal. And you're not going to get there any faster by focusing on it, unless you can speed a plane up with the power of your mind.
charleycarp i responded!
245: Also -- classicist! Who wrote a hilarious takedown of that Who Killed Homer? joke of a book. I like him plenty.
246
Travel, on the other hand, is a necessary task for the client if the client needs you in the place you're traveling to. You can't offload it onto a paralegal. And you're not going to get there any faster by focusing on it, unless you can speed a plane up with the power of your mind.
But you generally could be doing something else for the client while sitting in the plane. Like preparing for a deposition. Or reviewing the results of a deposition. Or proof reading motions. Etc.
Or you could be doing something for another client. Which is why it might make sense to bill travel at a reduced rate and work done while traveling at a reduced rate so that the sum is your full rate.
245: That really is a great, great book.
But you generally could be doing something else for the client while sitting in the plane. Like preparing for a deposition. Or reviewing the results of a deposition. Or proof reading motions. Etc.
True, but only in a limited sense. Lots of kinds of work you really can't do on a plane; the kinds that you probably could do in some sense, as Charley says you're very unlikely to be able to do and actually get anything usefully productive done.
I'd agree that where there's productive work you really could successfully do while traveling, you're ethically obliged to do that, and bill it to whatever client it's for rather than billing that time as travel time. If you wouldn't be able to get anything useful done, though, there's no ethical obligation to punish yourself by cutting your rates or struggling with something that isn't going to turn into real output.
(All this is separate, of course, from what you can negotiate with the client. If the client won't pay for travel, then that's the agreement.)
I mostly agree with 252.
One problem is that client billing rules that are designed to save them money can make it harder to do this. I can't bill for Business Class travel. However, if I flew Business Class, I would have room to work. I am a large land mammal, me and my laptop, much less, me, my laptop and files, do not fit in a coach seat.
251: I am thinking no, because it was pretty sarcastic and casual (an extended rumination on what it would mean to take VDH's advice and "live like the Greeks"). It was also like 10 years ago, so it was probably in Suck or Salon.
And you're not going to get there any faster by focusing on it, unless you can speed a plane up with the power of your mind.
Who says I can't?
I've arguably billed more than 24 hours in a single day two or three times because of the following travel scenario: leave LA on a red-eye to NYC at 11pm PCT, arrive in NY at 7 am EST, shower and change in the airport lounge, go to a deposition or an all day meeting that starts at 9:30, leave the deposition at 6, get on an 8 pm plane back to LA that lands in LA at 11: 30 pm.
But to avoid the confusion of marking down a number over 24 hrs for a single day on a client bill, I just shfted the first hour to the previous day and kept everything on west coast time. Also, those trips really sucked.
I agree with the basic principles of 252. It's not been at all unusual to me to work on something urgent for one client's case while on a plane during a trip for a second client. Since you can only bill one client for any chunk of time, this actually saves the trip-paying client some money that they'd have had to pay if I'd just sat in my seat watching the movie. It is clearly unethical to double-bill in that situation, so of course I don't do it, but it's always felt weird.
256: I would be physically incapable of doing that without assistance from crystal meth.
|| Pitt-Cincy turning into a classic. On ABC! || >
I agree with the basic principles of 255.
If you speed up the plane with your mind, you're just going to sit on the tarmac at your destination while they get the gate ready. With a headache.
256
... Since you can only bill one client for any chunk of time, ...
You can't allocate time between clients? Client A gets your being on a plane rate and client B gets your working on a plane rate. As long as these sum to your basic rate (or less) I don't see a problem.
There's no currently existing principle that would distinguish that from double billing, which is forbidden. (It would, in fact, be double-billing. Just at a cut-rate for each client.)
While there is an argument that double-billing in that manner and under those circumstances wouldn't violate the spirit of the ethical rules, it would violate the hell out of the letter of them.
Have I mentioned how much I don't miss timesheets?
Oh, god, yes. Being in a world where the only thing that matters is whether the work I need to do gets done in a timely fashion, and I don't need to sweat every unproductive day as a blemish on my permanent record, let alone the sheer horror of actually having to do the record keeping, is something I wake up in the mornings and feel thankful for every day.
So if you can't bill someone for time spent working on h/h shit while in transit for someone else, why would you work on it?
I think that's actually the light side, LB.
267: No, you can bill the person you're doing work for while you're on the plane, you just have to trim those hours off what you charge the other client for travel time. A six hour flight to a deposition for Client A is billed as six hours to Client A if you sleep on the plane. OTOH, if you spend an hour and a half on the plane reading docs for client B, you charge Client B for that hour and a half, and only charge Client A for four and a half hours of the plane ride.
(and if it makes you feel any better, text, I've been commenting all day because I'm writing a brief. Government work, while largely beer and skittles, isn't quite all beer and skittles.)
Dear old Posadas. He made left wing activism in the 1970s survivable (together with the tiny group of Maoist crooks in London who insisted that the PLA would liberate Britain before the end of 1978 (I think) and then in 1979 insisted that it had (virtually) happened.)
I don't feel better. But I hate you less for trying.
272: But that really doesn't answer nosflow's underlying question. That is, if you can bill four hours to client A for travel while reading the inflight magazine, why would you choose to instead spend four hours doing actual work for client B when at the end of the day you still bank the same four hours.
Two possible answers: (1) perhaps the work for client B can be billed out at a higher rate -- not all clients pay the same rate; or (2) the work for client B has a looming due date and you just plain need to get it done.
Reading through this thread, I'm awfully glad I almost never need to travel on business.
or (3) you'd rather have the leisure you can reclaim by getting your work done faster than the extra hours of billing.
It's always been (2), in my case. And, these issues have been going away as I'm increasingly moving into a practice somewhat more like Di's.
I'm supposed to be working today too but it hasn't happened so far.
I haven't got much done. It's a reply brief, and the opposition brief is off-the-wall enough that I'm getting myself all flummoxed. ("Plaintiff's argument that their claims are not barred by the statute of limitations is compelling. Not that we ever said they were.")
274: tiny group of Maoist crooks in London
That's not a very nice way to refer to Arsenal supporters.
I'm supposed to be working today too but it hasn't happened so far.
I am in scenic Mexico City. But in a conference room in the hotel with two colleagues editing a PowerPoint presentation.
Ah, the glamorous life of a New York lawyer.
Tomorrow, however, I am supposed to go to a bullfight with our client's General Counsel.
[No, I am not billing for the bullfight, even though we may discuss business]
so, unfortunately for our friends from Texas, does the Stephen F. Austin defense. Game just ended: 51-0.
That's not a very nice way to refer to Arsenal supporters.
They were called, I kid you not, the Workers' Institute for Marxism, Leninism, Mao Tsetung thought. I think they all lived in one big house in south London.
Once, when I'd got busted on some demo and was sitting waiting for my case to come up, one of them was on before me, and delayed proceedings considerably by refusing to recognise the court. I mean, refusing to recognise Bow Street Magistrates' Court, once presided over by Henry Fielding!
Soon after that they all got caught stealing lead from a church roof, and that was the end of that. (I'm not making any of this up.)
I am on an Amtrak train to Sacramento. It arrived 20 minutes late. See, this is what happens when you put the government in control of things. Why, in the airline industry, where private companies run things, you'd never see delays like th--oh, wait.
3 young Aussie gents are across me. So far they haven't been too annoying, but they show signs of potential for dudish obnoxiousness.
Am enjoying the copious legroom and generous reclinability of these seats.
My grasp of Aussie dialect is weak, but surely that's 'laddish' obnoxiousness?
258: Almost a classic. The ending sucked.
What did 60s-70s British Maoists think about the Beatles, after "Revolution"? I've always wondered about that.
That if you played the "Number 9" bit backward, you could hear John saying "Turn me on, dead man," thus proving that Paul was dead?
288: I considered writing that, but was worried that was British, and didn't want to take the risk of conflating the two dialects.
Also, since Halford is here: I am reclining, but there is no one in the seat behind me.
Well, you had the nation's premiere hippies telling the Maoists that they "weren't going to make it, anyhow" so I pictured some earnest burning of the white album while wearing funny green Mao hats. But my knowledge of the British radical left of the period comes from Life of Brian and (a later period I guess) that one weird guy on the Young Ones.
292 -- trains are different, recline away!
294: Inter-city buses are even more relaxed. You're allowed to put your head in your seatmate's lap.
You're allowed to put your head in your seatmate's lap.
Just watch out for those Canadian buses, where your crazy seatmate might decide to put your head in your lap.
296: Canadian yoga instructors can be very insistent.
44: I had to fly a couple of weeks ago, before my new knee had completely recovered its ability to bend. My original flight was cancelled and the next flight had bulkhead=exit row, so they wouldn't seat me there. I couldn't bend my knee well enough to sit in the regular seating. Just as the spectre of yet another delay was looming [and I'd already sat in the damned airport for six hours], the flight attendant bumped me to first class. And fed me a gin & tonic.
296 Saw that a lot when living in DC with a gf in NYC, but I didn't know that that's what the kids were calling it now.
On trains vs planes. Trains are much more comfortable and assuming similar total travel times and costs, they win. With decent quality standard rail that means anything under 200 miles, with high speed it goes up to 500.
Trains are much more comfortable and assuming similar total travel times and costs, they win. With decent quality standard rail that means anything under 200 miles, with high speed it goes up to 500.
Which, unfortunately, still doesn't get you even close to halfway across the US. So it looks like air travel will always be with us.
Yes, though the comfort advantage means that people will often choose to have a slightly longer trip. Also price: back before the mid nineties air travel within Europe was horribly expensive, and with subsidized rail that meant that people routinely chose long rail trips over planes. These days you often get the reverse dynamic operating when flights cost significantly less than a high speed rail ticket. Then there's overnight - it can be quite pleasant to hop into a train in the evening and arrive in the center of town the next morning after breakfast, though again, price matters. It used to be a lot cheaper than the equivalent flight, nowadays not so much. Yet another factor is whether you want to be in the city center and whether you're going to need a car.
I want a car I can fit in the overhead compartment.
301: flights cost significantly less than a high speed rail ticket
It's only an extra $80 to fly (in an hour) from the Twin Cities to Chicago (with Saturday stay) versus taking Amtrak, a month in advance. I can't honestly say that $80 is "lunch" for me right now, but a year ago it would have been. And flying saves you about 5 hours. Of course, on the one occasion on which I flew from MSP to O'Hare for business, the ticket was about $900, coach.
on the one occasion on which I flew from MSP to O'Hare for business
There are MSP to Midway flights on Southwest, aren't there?
304: This was before Southwest entered the Twin Cities market. And with only 4 or 5 days notice. And it's all politics.
Southwest only started flying to MSP pretty recently.
306 That's some awfully specific knowledge for a place you don't live. Anyone else sometimes wonder if teo's really a wizard?
A place I've never even been to, actually.
I fly Southwest a lot. When they start flying to a new airport they make a big deal out of it. I remember seeing on a flight I took relatively recently that they'd started flying to MSP.
But if you finish the dep and spend the 4 hours flying back working on a second client's case, are you saying it's inappropriate to bill the second client for the time? Inappropriate to bill the first?
To answer this, and to simultaneously put a giant bold "Huh?" next to 263, which I don't understand at all, I'd bill the second client for the 4 hours of time if I thought I'd worked as effectively as I would have sitting in my office. If I felt I was operating at, say, 75% efficiency, I'd bill 3 hours to client 2 and 1 hour (travel) to client 1. If I could only work at 25% efficiency, it would be reversed--1 hour of work billed to client 2, and 3 hours of travel billed to client 1. I've never been in a situation where a client paid a different rate for travel vs. other work, but I guess it makes sense that some would negotiate for that.
||
Liam Clancy, last survivor of The Clancy Brothers with Tommy Makem, has died.
I don't suppose any of the current or former Chicago people around here are old enough to remember Ray Nordstrand and Norm Pelligrini on WFMT. They played a lot of that music. They're probably dead, too.
|>
312: That's sad. More of my past vanishes. I saw TCB&TM in New York in the Sixties. The spotlights on their faces & the white sweaters, with everything else in darkness, created a weird almost hypnotic state for me without any chemical enhancement needed. It must have had an impact, I can visualize it clearly now.
312: My Grammy used to listen to that.
311: Shearer was proposing, on a four hour plane ride, to charge two clients for four hours of work each -- the client on whose behalf you were travelling would pay your 'travel rate' for four hours, and the client whose work you were doing on the plane would pay your 'working inefficiently on a plane' rate for the same four hours. Even if you're charging cutrates, if you're charging two different clients for four hours of work between 2 and 6 in the afternoon, that's double billing.
What you describe (splitting the fullprice time between the clients, but adjusting the hours worked for inefficiency) sounds kosher to me, otoh.
312: I grew up listening to the Clancy Brothers -- the combination of Irish and the late 50s/early 60s folk music scene meant my parents were very fond of them. In fact, I actually have a Clancy Brothers album on my iPod.
Fare thee well, Enniskillen. Always liked that one.
... my parents were very fond of them. ... My Grammy used to listen to that
Me 'n you, Biohazard, on the count of three we wave our canes in the air and say "the goddam kids these days ... "
Never heard of them. Must have been before my grandparents' time.
315: got it, I'd missed that on first reading. Of course, there's no real difference between the two.
Hey, I like them myself, lots.
But apparently you've read everything I've read (including Gaudy Night) and all the music I've heard and you have the audacity to remember it all - I feat that's far, far beyond the abilities of this mortal man, Kal-El-Bee.
312: Hey! I remember Norm Pellegrini! It turns out that he just died this past July.
321: Well, there's something a little sketchy even about what you're doing. The conversation you'd have to have with the client to pull it all out into the open is one that I'd think a lot of clients would be unhappy with: "I'm going to be getting your work done under circumstances where I'm uncomfortable enough that I can't focus or think straight. But I think I can accurately gauge how inefficient I'm being due to the discomfort and distraction, and I'lll write the time down proportionately." That seems like a deal that most clients wouldn't be cheerful about -- they agreed to hire you, focusing, full price, not you, distracted, half price.
I wouldn't feel terrible about doing what you're doing, but I'd think best practices would be to work on the plane only where (a) it was something that you really thought you could do properly, and so charge full price, or where (b) it was enough of an emergency that it had to be done on the plane regardless of distraction, and so charge full price.
all the music I've heard
Almost certainly untrue. I'm not a music person at all.
Hey, yo, Californians in this thread! Can any of you explain to me about your Prop. 11? I hadn't heard of it until this e-mail just now:
WeDrawTheLines.ca.gov
Last year, California voters passed Proposition 11, creating California's first-ever citizens redistricting commission. Since passage of Proposition 11, we have been working diligently with the state to ensure that the implementing regulations emphasize the importance of the Voting Rights Act and the creation of a commission that represents all of the communities that make up our state.
Now, we need your help. With a state as big and diverse as California, who draws the lines - and how those lines are drawn - will truly shape the future of our state. We need you to apply to serve on the commission that will draw California's senate, assembly and board of equalization districts.
Is this genius or insanity? Both? I know we've talked about redistricting plans before, but I don't remember a citizen component like this one.
I am also quite fond of the Clancy brothers, and I'm younger than LB.
I remember Norm Pellegrini! It turns out that he just died this past July.
Thank you. That prompted me to do a google, and it turns out that The Midnight Special is still running on WFMT. I had assumed that it ended when I last heard it, which would have been perhaps 1974. Maybe there's something to this idea that parts of the world continue even when I'm not watching.
317: Ah. That did my heart good. I really need to tune into my Irish music more often.
I am also quite fond of the Clancy brothers, and I'm younger than LB.
I've never let a fact stand in the way of my opinions, and I'm certainly not going to start now. Goddam kids and their facts. mutter mutter mutter millenium hand and shrimp. Bugrit.
And the songs are so satisfying to sing along with. Most rock/pop I end up with long patches in the middle where the vocalist is doing something I can't imitate effectively at all. The Clancy Brothers and the like, while I sound like hell because it's still me singing, I can get through the whole song.
Another vote for the Clancy Brothers. I spent a good portion my childhood weekends working the Midwest's Irish craft-fair circuit with my grandma, who sold her crafts there. I was exposed to a lot of Irish music as a result.
Also, I had a standing advanced pardon from my grandma to sing loud the full lyrics of the The Wolfe Tones' "Rock on Rockall", including the curse words (which is a big deal when you're eight).
329: And BEZ still seems to air Word Jazz with Ken Nordine (, Daddy-O).
This (great) song clearly owes a large debt to "Fare thee well, Enniskillen".
I disagree fairly strongly with 324. I mean, this is something of a corner case, because (a) almost anytime I'm working on a plane, it's for the same client for whom I've traveling, (b) when I'm not, I'm generally able to review a printed document or otherwise do something for which I'm working at close enough to full efficiency that I feel comfortable billing all the time to that client. But before you use a word like "sketchy", could you explain to me how this is different than any run-of-the-mill working late? I mean, at least a giant chunk of what I do in any month during which I bill over about 250 hours or so is going to be done under circumstances in which, "to pull it all out in the open", as you say, I'd have to say to the client, "I'm going to be getting your work done under circumstances where I'm [replace "uncomfortable" with "tired"] enough that I can't focus or think straight." But generally the client gets no discount for that (because I'm sure as hell going to bill it, if I'm stuck there all night working). And I don't think there's anything unethical about that (though please, correct me if you disagree), even though there have certainly been times when I'd been embarrassed at my own inefficiency, because of exhaustion. The only difference in the travel scenario is that I don't *have* to bill the client for the entire period in order to capture all my time, because there's another client who can be on the hook for the difference. And that fact makes it seem, ethically, more questionable to you?
I mean, yes, if I talked to them about it, I'm sure every client would prefer me fresh and well-rested and totally focused on their problems (and theirs alone), without distraction, for as long as needed. But that's not always, or even generally, realistic.
I spent a good portion my childhood weekends working the Midwest's Irish craft-fair circuit with my grandma, who sold her crafts there.
We do the Gaelic Park Irish Fest every memorial Day weekend, and the Irish american Heritage Center St. Paddy's Day fest every St. Paddy's. Indeed, the latter is specifically written into my custody agreement. Rory love to watch the Irish dancing. Mom and I love to sing along to the standards.
335 is also great and downstairs on my iTunes I think.
And BEZ still seems to air Word Jazz with Ken Nordine (, Daddy-O).
And he's available through the miracle of the intertubes! I had no idea. I remember him from the Midnight Special, where they played his album Twink.
336: The thing is, when you work late, you're doing it because the volume of work makes it necessary, so you charge full price. And if the volume of work means that you really have to work on a plane, then it's necessary, and I'd charge full price for the same reason I charge full price for hours worked between three and four in the morning.
What I was reacting to was writing down your time -- if working on the plane is necessary, then writing down your time seems to me to be unfair to you. If it's not necessary -- you could get the work done under more favorable circumstances later -- AND being on a plane is distracting you enough that you feel as if you should write the time down, I'd leave the work for later. I don't think most clients would want the half-price distracted work if given the option explicitly.
We do the Gaelic Park Irish Fest every memorial Day weekend, and the Irish american Heritage Center St. Paddy's Day fest every St. Paddy's.
Then you've almost undoubtedly walked past my grandma's booth at both. Small world!
326: Not good. (And on the off chance this isn't already well know, calitics is the place to go for CA politics.)
if working on the plane is necessary, then writing down your time seems to me to be unfair to you
Why is it unfair to me? Four hours is four hours. I'm billing four hours regardless.
340 con't: Mostly, as you describe your practice, I think you're cheating yourself, not your clients.
I knew Ken Nordine was old, but I didn't realize he was already 47 when he released the "Colors" album, 42 years ago. Or that his most recent recorded appearance was a collaboration with Strongbad on a song on the most recent Shellac album. Or that there was a recent Shellac album. Thanks, internet!
Pretty coldhearted of you, Di, to walk right past Stanley's grandma's booth like that.
335: Yeah, I've seen time cut for work done that was full efficiency and fully necessary because it was a particularly difficult case but the partner felt the straight up description along the lines of "rereading particularly damning case for the 12th time" would seem redundant to the client. I'm constantly being reminded that clients don't like to spend money for things like reading, thinking, discussing, meeting and so, ostensibly, I ought not be billing for such things. Fuck it. That's what I'm doing and it's valuable and so I'm billing for it. The worst was a client who I was told (after the fact) would not pay for time spent conducting legal research without prior authorization. What now?
Further to 342: "Prop. 11 was designed to break the stranglehold Democrats have held on redistricting in California, where the Legislature's majority, i.e., the Democrats, draws the lines for every legislative and congressional district, protecting incumbents of both parties and keeping the Dems in control."
343: Well, what if you were traveling for a client who didn't pay for travel? Four hour plane ride, three hours of work at what feels like 50% efficiency for another client? If you'd write it down under those circumstances, that's cheating yourself. If you wouldn't, then you're billing one client more or less depending on your billing arrangement with another client, which seems sketchy to me.
You're right that this is a corner case -- to make it actually a problem, you need a very specific setup, which is why I wouldn't call it an ethical problem. But writing down your time as you describe seems like a rule that works badly if you try to generalize why you're doing it.
341: What does she sell, Stanley? Chances are we've at least perused her wares, if not purchased.
338: Singing out "And fifteen minutes later we had our first taste of whiskey" is super double secret code between me and my best friend for "good god it's time to get a drink".
Or was, really. We haven't lived in the same city since about 2000, so it only ever gets used at get-togethers. We were both in, um, China together at the same time, and it sure got used a lot then.
347: Oh, man, clients with fussy rules about what categories of legal work they will and will not pay for are just begging to be, um, gently evaded. We had one who wouldn't pay for meetings, which meant billing for what happened in meetings without mentioning that there were other lawyers in the room at the time. "Analyzed securities-law claims."
I love not billing my time so much.
I billed Stanley's Grandma for the time spent walking by her booth.
LIKE DRIVING, IT IS AS UNETHICAL TO BILL FULL RATE FOR WORK DONE WHILE DROWSY AS IT IS TO BILL FULL RATE FOR WORK DONE WHILE DRUNK.
I'll bill your pants off. I'll bill circles around you.
350: She paints wooden plaques with Irish quotations and that sort of thing. (She does non-Irish stuff, too, but for these fairs is mostly Irish stuff.) I guess you could call it Irish-American kitsch art.
More recently, she's moved into doing oils again (where she started, but that's a tough market). I can happily lead you to her website but would rather do so via e-mail.
I billed a man in Reno, just because he wore a tie.
I billed a Slinky, just to watch it slide.
I billed this city on rock and roll.
May those who love us, love us. And for those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts. And if He doesn't turn their hearts, may He turn their ankles so we'll know them by the limping.
That sort of thing?
Peter billed the church on the rock of our faith.
Well, what if you were traveling for a client who didn't pay for travel? Four hour plane ride, three hours of work at what feels like 50% efficiency for another client? If you'd write it down under those circumstances, that's cheating yourself. If you wouldn't, then you're billing one client more or less depending on your billing arrangement with another client, which seems sketchy to me.
I'd bill the full amount under those circumstances. It still strikes me as very odd that you call this "sketchy", since you're on board with the idea that the entire amount should be billed. My agreement with the client would allow me to bill them for this work and they should expect to be billed for it. It strikes you as sketchy that there could be circumstances under which I'd decide not to bill a client for the entire amount of time I was entitled to bill them?
Further, on the very narrow issue of "billing one client more or less depending on your billing arrangement with another client," I'd also bill one client less for legal research if I had a memo on the same topic I'd just written for another client the prior week. What's the difference?
But writing down your time as you describe seems like a rule that works badly if you try to generalize why you're doing it.
It sounds almost like you think any voluntary write-down of time is dangerous/"sketchy"? I know that can't be the case, so I must be missing some of the distinctions you're trying to draw here.
361: And fifteen minutes later we had our first taste of whiskey.
361: Exactly that sort of thing. As in, that's a quite popular one she sells a ton of.
342, 348: Huh. It's not immediately obvious to me that this is a bad thing (in general I think Common Cause and the League of Women Voters are on the right track), but since you live there and I don't, I'm going to assume you know a lot better what you're talking about.
Seems like a shame. In general I do think having incumbent state legislators in charge of redistricting is begging for self-dealing.
If you billed it, they will come.
Happy birthday, ari, by the way.
Come January 1, I'm going to be billing my time again. Thank you very much, A-133 auditor.
I bill children! And make their mamas cry!
357: Please do! I always look at that stuff (love the one in 361, along with the classic about how the gift of an Irishman is his ability to tell you to go to hell such that you look forward to the journey). Next time, I'll maybe buy something 'cause it's your Grandma
Thank god I'm not paid by the hour. I have no idea if I was working for the last two hours or not, for instance.
I've billed fire and I've billed rain. I've billed sunny days that I thought would never end. I've billed lonely days when I could not find a friend. But I always thought that I'd bill you again.
If you billed it, they will come.
If they came, you should bill them.
372 made me laugh out loud.
Like many graduate students, I work about 14 hours a day, 6 days a week, at about 30% of the productivity that I could theoretically achieve if anyone was supervising me or even noticing whether I'm doing anything or not.
If Stanley's Grandma could make me a plaque based on 374, it would make me very happy.
363: Well, the initial thing that struck me as sketchy was working on the plane when it wasn't necessary and it was messing you up enough that you felt as if you should write the time down. It sounds like you agree with me on that -- plane work should either be full-efficiency or mandated by time pressure. So that was my primary sketchiness issue.
On the write-down front, it seems sketchy to me because I can't imagine explaining it to both clients simultaneously. "Bob, I'm going to charge you for three hours of this four hour plane ride, and I'm going to charge Phil here for one. I actually spent three hours doing work for Phil, but I thought I was being really inefficient about it, so I charged you for it instead." "Phil, I only charged you one hour for three hours worth of work, because trust me, when I'm on a plane, I'm not worth full price. Next week, though, I'm going to be flying to a deposition for Alice, who doesn't pay for travel. On that trip, you're paying full price for any work I do for you on the plane, whether or not I'm worth it, because I won't have the option of making Alice pay for the time."
That seems like a conversation I really wouldn't want to have explicitly. Which sets off my 'sketchy' radar.
In general I do think having incumbent state legislators in charge of redistricting is begging for self-dealing.
I strongly agree in principal, but until Republican redoubts (like, e.g., Texas) agree to make redistricting nonpartisan, I really think unilateral disarmament, especially in a huge state like California, is a terrible idea.
All I want to know is: which one of youse killed Emerson?
(Oh, and Happy Birthday, Ari).
382: MC? Really? Is that you? This is like the best present evah!
OT: Nebraska's defense is close to perfect. The offense makes me want to tell people I'm from Iowa.
380: it would be awkward to explain it to both of them if we were all sitting in the same room at once, yes. Does that prove anything? It would also be awkward to explain to Bob and Alice simultaneously why her bill was four hours less than his for identical work, since he pays for my time during travel and she doesn't. Is any variation in billing practice across clients sketchy?
On the other hand, it would be very easy to explain Bob's bill to Bob and Phil's bill to Phil. That seems like it should be good enough.
382: Emerson isn't dead, he's just pining for the fjords.
383: gswift is the bill.
381: To be clear, it wasn't unilateral. It was the Republicans' idea; it was pushed through with Republican money; and it will serve Republicans' interests.
Yes, Ari, it's me. And I've got a box of Timbits with your name on it.
It's ari's birthday? Happy birthday, ari! (We should have a cake to link, like the fruit basket.)
390: Right. I just meant in terms of whether someone like Witt should support it on principal.
Happy birthday, Ari! Hiya, Mary Catherine!
Republicans are always self-serving assholes. It's uncanny.
whether someone like Witt should support it on principal.
No, she should just support the interest.
Also I'm tired and buzzed, because I've had 2 drinks and it's past 9 pm. Because that's how I roll. Ok, 2+. But a conservative number.
388: Come on. Phil and Alice negotiated different deals with you, which is perfectly kosher -- talking about Alice's deal in front of Phil might make him want to renegotiate, but he wouldn't have a gripe about it.
As between Bob and Phil, though, you're telling Bob "I did work for you that was bad enough that I don't really think it's worth full price. So I'll cut the price, so long as it comes out of Phil's pocket. When I can't cut the price without taking it out of my own, personal, pocket, though, you're paying the whole thing."
You can't see that as legitimately disturbing.
I've got a box of Timbits with your name on it
God love you and yours. Though, truth be told, my wife and kids made me a pony cake. Because, whenever one of the kids says that he wants this or that absurd thing (another video game, more allowance, a later bedtime), I say that I want a pony. So they got me a pony for my birthday. Still, I'll take the donuts, thanks, on the principle that one can never have too many baked/fried sweets.
No, she should just support the interest.
But according to 390 the interest is Republican!
a box of Timbits
Some call them Timbits? Or just the regular kind?
400: Where did they get the pony meat?
366: To be clear, I have no idea what the unintended consequences will be. But I know that the intended consequences included hamstringing the Democrats in this state. And given the nature of California's Republicans, that's a very scary thought.
Put up a new thread, heebs. A sports thread!
Bob's bill to Bob
I think this would still be a problem with full disclosure. "What's this one hour here?"
"That's three hours of work on a plane. I wrote it down because I'm inefficient on planes, and I could charge any leftover time on the plane to a different client."
"Okay, what's this three hours?"
"That's three hours of work on a different plane."
"You were more efficient that time?"
"No."
"Then why didn't you write it down?"
"Because the client I was flying for doesn't pay for travel, so if I wrote it down for you, I couldn't have billed it to anyone."
The Gators lost. That's kind of a bummer.
Discussing Alice's billing arrangement with Phil would, of course, violate a client confidence and itself be unethical. Just sayin'.
Now Alice doesn't live at her billing arrangement. She lives around the corner.
We should have a cake to link, like the fruit basket.
A fruit cake?
I've had 2 drinks and it's past 9 pm. Because that's how I roll. Ok, 2+. But a conservative number.
You call those drinks?
Discussing Alice's billing arrangement with Phil would... itself be unethical
Without her consent, here implied by the fact that everyone's in the same room.
408: Why? Seriously, I'm not a Nick Saban fan, and the perfect outcome, from my perspective, would have been a series of non-life-threatening injuries that led to cancellation of the game, but I'm curious what would make anyone support Tim Tebow. And now, all I want for my birthday -- other than having MC show up -- is for the Huskers to beat the dreaded Longhorns.
You can bill anything you want, when Alice is your client.
412: In which case, it's just stupid business. "Hey, Phil. Just wanted you to know Alice is paying $150 less per hour than you. *And* she doesn't pay for travel time. Sucka!!"
413: Because I grew up in Gainesville?
And I'm really not trying to be holier than thou at Brock -- this is the sort of thing where you probably don't actually run into the sort of situation that would be hard to explain often at all, and any issues like the one's I'm pointing to would be very de minimus. It just seems as if applying Brock's practices could possibly get you into an uncomfortably inconsistent position.
416: I thought you grew up in Kansas or Nebraska or Missouri or somewhere like that. Anyway, all this should go in the new sports thread.
"One's"? Jesus Christ. I'm quitting this brief for the night.
416: Ah. In that case, I'm sorry God didn't love Tebow enough to deliver victory unto him and the Gators.
OT: Go Huskers. That was an ugly offense, but a great game to win.
This has not been my best birthday ever, I'll have you all know.
I have scriptures painted under my eyes at this very moment. 33:16.
399: so, in your view, am I being unfair to Bob, or to Phil, or--as you suggested before--to myself?
I'm billing God for these losses.
Woo! Hook 'em! (Holy hell that was close).
I'm philling Bob for these Alices.
Jesus Christ. I'm quitting this brief for the night.
Nah. Just keep at it, but only bill 50%.
||
I have sort of fucked-up news (to me) about the prison e-mail thing I related recently but am reluctant to share it (let alone post about it) because talking about prison policies gets me worked up in an unusual way. I should just tell you and then vow not to comment right? That's a fair deal to myself, right?
|>
nd now, all I want for my birthday -- other than having MC show up -- is for the Huskers to beat the dreaded Longhorns.
So sorry.
I don't even know what a new sports thread would be about.
I can't understand why teams don't just kick off normally at the end of games. Is there some strategic reason to hand the other team 40 yards? Kickoff returns for touchdowns don't happen that often.
I can't just think up a new sport like that.
The Wikipedia link on the redistricting proposition is less helpful than usual. The unintended consequences seem likely to be significant, and also to be unusually un-knowable. For now I guess I'll go with the heuristic that if it came out of CA's proposition system, it's awful.
420: Heh. I read the Agassi autobiography over Thanskgiving and he has some great snark directed at some other tennis player who always praised God for the victory. Though, really, I'm only mentioning that because I've been dying to tell you all how much I loved reading that autobiography.
429: If you spill it, we will com(m)e(nt).
if it came out of CA's proposition system, it's awful
Safest bet ever.
429: The commentariat works in strange and wonderful ways. But usually contrarian. But I'm curious, so you should share, but never expect the response you'd love.
["Oh Heebie what a great and wonderful way to streamline traffic flow!"]
429: Aw, Stanley, that's horrible. I'm sorry.
Food is generally good consolation for crappy, humanity-destroying policies. ::sending a virtual cornmeal/apricot muffin with orange glaze::
The Petros And Money Show suggested that although Tebow-related hype is awful, it could be a lot worse. Petros advised that we look back at the last quarterback to receive such hype, Matt Leinart, and recognize that Tebow is certainly a more admirable person than that guy was, and is famous for better reasons, and his adulation is less annoying because his talents are more varied.
There's a lewd joke in 436, but I'm too lame to find it.
435: I've heard it's great. I think Agassi, late in his career and in retirement, was/has been an unusually compelling figure among athletes.
422: I'm sorry to hear that, Ari. But a pony cake! I mean, that's not nothing either.
So the Clancy Brothers is now retro-chic or something?
439: So you're admitting you're a troll?
Growing up in Gainesville is no excuse, Heebie. Tim Tebow is the most despicable student-athlete of our generation.
442: Color me compelled, anyway. Not a tennis fan and actually had bought it as a gift for someone else who is, but started flipping through it and got totally sucked in. You should all read it.
430: The Huskers just won. With four field goals.
Further to 447: ... and then talk to me about it.
Is he despicable? I thought he had a sunny disposition. Plays games, all sorts.
The transfer of baked goods does not necessarily signify trollhood, M/tch. I would have thought an ex-baker would know that.
443: No worries, I was just being mopey because the dreaded Longhorns lived to fight another day.
I bill trolls like Witt for breakfast.
454: WTF, I just watched the end. It was 12-11 Huskers.
MH didn't wait for the outcome of the video review.
447: No, wait, I said he was compelling, albeit in a particularly un-compelling context: professional athletes. Regardless, I'd love to read it and likely will after I finish working on this thing I have to finish working on.
436: Yeah, I'll just run with it, it's so enraging.
So I have a relative I correspond with in federal prison. He recently got a sort of e-mail access. Once you approve the given inmate, you can log into this website and send and receive messages through this secure portal. (Sort of like a prison facebook, except just messages, and you can't go finding inmates; inmates identify you by name and e-mail address, and you then accept them or block them. Once accepted you can exchange messages in an e-mail sort of format).
So I've been in touch with my relative this way all week, and it's been rather nice. Out of the blue he mentioned he was at the computer lab without his glasses, so he had to use some credits to print my e-mail, so he could read it later.
Sidebar: as you may now, federal prisoners can receive money orders in prison for buying smokes, magazines, etc.
I gathered that he could use ten or twenty cents from that money to print an e-mail, which, hey, that seems fair. Same as any university library, for instance.
After inquiring about it, I've learned that he has to use a credit for every single message sent or received, not to mention the printed ones (which again, printing costs money; I'm cool with that).
I should add that I'd be okay if there were some flat monthly fee for using the privilege of e-mail. After all, computers and the software cost money.
But charging per fucking e-mail? And learning that the company that administers the program is a for-profit contractor? Maddening.
Probably useless letter to my congressman to be fired off tomorrow. Gah.
454: On further review, fuck the officials.
And my attention span, apparently.
TX kicked a field goal after the bought-and-paid-for review team put a second on the clock following the final play.
455: I think you mean 12-11, and that was just before the end.
That is totally fucking infuriating, Stanster. It sounds like they're just shaking down relatives of inmates because they've got a position of power.
I knew the score of the game before it even began.
459, 461: B.S.
458: Man, that is f#cking maddening.
458: I know you said so, but I want to make sure of something: this is a federal prison? If so, put a post on the front page -- here or at your blog, and disable comments if you want -- and ask everyone to write their representatives. For-profit prison ventures are among the most disgusting things* happening in this country today. And that's saying something. Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if you got some links and generated a reasonable amount of mail to some legislators. Will it change anything? Almost certainly not. Is it worth a try? Sure.
* Other than Tim Tebow, I mean.
I haven't caught up with the thread because I keep falling asleep when I get to the billing, but I was never quite convinced that Calitics was right about prop 11. Or that the proponents of prop 11 are right about prop 11. The effects of this kind of diffuse process reform are pretty hard to predict and it's not like the Democrats redistricting power has brought them many new seats in the last few years (although I could be wrong about that).
Calitics is more right when they say that redistricting is not actually a big problem and prop 11 isn't necessary on its proponents terms (as a response to the perceived issue), but that's not the same thing as knowing just what prop 11 will do. I got the impression that no one really understood it, much less the effects it will have.
467.1: I know it was the right call. But like McManus, I have to rail against villainy -- the Longhorns, in this case -- wherever villainy can be found.
I heard that ari and Tim Tebow were mouseketeers together and ari never quite got over Justin Timberlake picking Tim Tebow over him.
I don't like to spread rumors, though.
Look at all these rumors! Surrounding me every day!
468: I may dig a bit a post a generic not-related-to-my-story thing about it, but I'm awfully careful not to rock the boat for this relative. And I'll just have to ask you to trust my comfort level on that one, given past experience.
On the other hand, 500-comments-in, it's happily buried a bit, so I don't mind talking about it. (This is possibly not rational as a reaction, but there it is.)
You just called Tim Tebow gay, didn't you? Prepare to be smited, Jewess.
469 is still meeting the 390s. They're not visiting for long.
476: Aw, I'm already smitten. But thanks.
468: Sorry, didn't answer your question: yes, federal.
Happy birthday, ari!
And I was wondering if Mary Catherine was still around.
And learning that the company that administers the program is a for-profit contractor?
This is maddening, yes, and also rather creepy. When I see "prison" and "for-profit" in the same sentence, I truly shudder with revulsion.
475: Your call, of course. And as I think about it, your story probably doesn't even make the Top 100 list of abuses visited upon prisoners by the for-profit prison industry complex. But that doesn't mean it doesn't totally suck. Sometimes I wish I believed in a wrathful Old-Testament-style deity. See? It all comes back to the Tebow family in the end.
482 sounds much more callous to my ears than I intended it to. Sorry about that. What you've described is a horrible thing. Where it fits on the long list of other horrible things happening in prisons doesn't really matter.
I don't like to spread rumors, though.
I do! I have a really great one right now. But the last time I mentioned a big rumor in a blog comment, it led to a stupid article in Slate and a slightly less stupid one in the New York Times.
484: Really? Do I know about this?
Also, of course I love gossip and rumors. It comes with the being judgemental territory.
475: dig a bit a post a generic
Digable Planets!
5% Nation!
Belly!
Gummo!
Chloe Sevigny!
...and that's why fire engines are red!
Is 487 some new translation party?
||
Really irritating British prat is clogging up my stairwell with his ridiculous prattle. No one can understand why she's dating him. No one can even bring themselves to refer to him as her "boyfriend".
||>
Also, fuck for-profit prison contractors.
I'm swearing a lot more in comments lately. Twice in the last two days.
403 A good friend of mine spent half a summer working in a Genevan office before he found out that the 'poulain' cutlet was not some particularly flavourful form of chicken.
340
The thing is, when you work late, you're doing it because the volume of work makes it necessary, so you charge full price. ...
Suppose you are working late because of all the time you spent goofing off earlier?
Who around here goofs off? Please, Shearer, stop setting up these strawmen.
I am going to goof off to bed now. Night all.
Good night heebie/ Good night heebie/ Good night heebie/ It's time to say 'good night'!
336
...I mean, at least a giant chunk of what I do in any month during which I bill over about 250 hours or so is going to be done under circumstances in which, "to pull it all out in the open", as you say, I'd have to say to the client, "I'm going to be getting your work done under circumstances where I'm [replace "uncomfortable" with "tired"] enough that I can't focus or think straight." But generally the client gets no discount for that (because I'm sure as hell going to bill it, if I'm stuck there all night working). And I don't think there's anything unethical about that (though please, correct me if you disagree), even though there have certainly been times when I'd been embarrassed at my own inefficiency, because of exhaustion. ...
I think there is a problem with billing full rate when you are too tired to think straight. And I doubt it is necessary except in rare circumstances.
Also, of course I love gossip and rumors. It comes with the being judgemental territory.
I don't have that kind of rumor. Just the "I hear such-and-such an experiment thinks they've discovered something-or-other" type that only scientists (and, apparently, Slate and the New York Times) care about.
483
482 sounds much more callous to my ears than I intended it to. Sorry about that. What you've described is a horrible thing. Where it fits on the long list of other horrible things happening in prisons doesn't really matter.
Doesn't sound that horrible to me although it depends of course on how big the charge is. But if you are ok about a flat rate what is so bad about a variable charge that averages to the same amount?
Does everyone here know about the super-max communication facilities that are being implemented? Basically they've segregated out a chunk of the federal prison population (virtually all Muslim, except for a few token white guys) into this special unit where you're not allowed more than a couple letters a month out, and of course everything is heavily censored.
It's pretty fucked up. Everyone should read Alexander Berkman's "Prison Memoirs of an Anarchist" -- it's all coming back again.
Bonnot was right.
I'm going off-blog for now but will likely post something tomorrow about it, after I dig a bit. Shearer can troll me then. I'm not up for it at the moment.
It's the "for-profit" bit that seems most offensive to me, though charging per email is pretty ridiculous.
Now that prisons serve only to turn prisoners into traumatized second-class citizens rather than filling any sort of rehabilitative role, there's no reason they can't be privatized just like every other government monopoly is being privatized nowadays.
What are the charges for paper mail, anyway?
I'd also bill one client less for legal research if I had a memo on the same topic I'd just written for another client the prior week. What's the difference?
The difference is that in this scenario, you didn't spend the time. Client 1 pays for 5 hours for the memo. Client 2 pays for the half hour of reviewing the memo and applying it to their unique facts.
As for billing for work on planes, it seems to me that your time on a plane isn't that much different than your time in the office -- it's just that the distractions of having to switch off your electronics (and listen to crying babies) getting up so the person next to you can go to the bathroom, waiting out turbulence so you can stand up and grab a different doc out of your bag are less optional than the ordinary distractions of Unfogged, the ice cream shop, and if you've been living right, long lunch w spouse. You can't bill for any of it.
On the subject of telling one client about billing arrangement with another, I don't think you have any problem. 'My usual rate is $500 per hour, but for clients of a particular type (you, for example) I charge $400' is unquestionably OK. So is 'I don't charge for time that I'm not working, and I might write down time that turns out not to have been useful.'
(Actually, don't answer that, if you've stopped thinking about this.)
I want to know the backstory behind Stanley's 458 so bad. I bet I'd get along with his relative.
It's the "for-profit" bit that seems most offensive to me
I'm going to bed, but before I do: To tag on to whaat Natilo was saying, one of the (unintended?) consequences of for-profit prisons is that there are huge incentives for the guards to err on the side of punishing inmates. Granting "credits" for early release is counterproductive in a system that profits from as many warm bodies in beds as possible.
Enforcing arbitrary and petty punishments escalating to huge and life-altering punishments (e.g. solitary confinement) to control and extend prison terms is an *incentivized* practice in our current prison system, both federal and state.
The worst was a client who I was told (after the fact) would not pay for time spent conducting legal research without prior authorization. What now?
Shit's expensive. I'd want prior authorization too. Client has to have some way of mitigating your firm's incentive to throw as much manpower at a matter as they can. Trust? Well, that got used up about 15 years ago. Now they want to see the condom before they bend over.
I spent a little time about 5 years ago looking into a potential antitrust case against a phone company that had contracted with some state prison systems to be the exclusive outgoing long-distance service for inmates. The prices the phone company was charging were insane -- 15-20X ordinary long distance rates. There was no way to bring the case ( at least, not one I could figure out). But what was going on incredibly despicable -- it was state-sponsored price gouging of the ultimate captive market in the most obvious possible way. Sounds from Stanley like something similar is happening with email in the federal system.
I voted for Prop 11, as did some of the hyper-politically active Democrats I know. Calitics is good, but they were wrong on that issue -- the measure wasn't a Republican trick. In California, because of our screwed up Constitution, you need a 2/3 majority of both the assembly and the senate to get anything done. The Democrats, as dominant as they are, can't possibly redistrict the state in such a way that they'd have safe control 2/3 of the seats. The current system is designed to create safe districts for both parties, and as a result there is a state legislature with basically no moderates on any side, and a batshit insane Republican minority that has the power to block everything. So you're better off with some more contested, less gerrymandered districts that might elect some moderates who could get something done, even if that makes a few democratic seats less than 100% safe. I'm still skeptical that any redistricting scheme is all that important in the long run, but Prop 11 wasn't just a Republican scam and a redistricting commission isn't necessarily a bad thing. Actually, I think we discussed it here around the time of the election.
Robert, do you happen to know what percentage of the money behind the Prop. 11 campaign came from Democrats? My understanding, based on hearsay, is that it was significantly less than 10%.
You can look at some numbers here. It's a good reminder of the lack of contribution limits at the state level and when measures, rather than people, are on the ballot. There are people giving over $100,000 for just one ballot measure - including Bloomberg.
512: Yeah, see, it just seems like authorization to conduct legal research must be implicit in authorization to perform legal work. I sure as hell know that there is almost nothing in my practice that can be done without reviewing and verifying the law.
What, you don't already know the law?
516, you might not have been in the profession in the late 80s or 90s, when trust of institutional clients, including carriers, was used up. Sorry.
Let me give you an example: when but a lad (professionally -- I was chronologically older than a number of commenters -- I was assigned to read every single case in the ICC reporter that cited a specific section of the 1920 statute. That reporter was not online at the time. One day, I was in the library reading volume 300 or so, and a slightly more senior associate came up and asked what I was doing. In the friendliest possible way. Turns out she had performed the exact assignment eight months (or so) earlier.
After completion, I reported my results, and the next day did so again to a conference room with 9 lawyers in the room. For 3 hours (including my 20 minutes).
That same year, I recall, I was assigned to read every single opinion from the Fourth Circuit that had resulted in a reversal, looking for some particular thing -- which I don't recall -- but could occur in too many way to be usefully found by computer. It was fun, and I learned a lot of law, and read some great stories.
(My classmates who had gone to other big firms spent equivalent periods in warehouses in ugly parts of distant towns reviewing documents. Easy to feel pretty lucky in that context.)
This sort of thing, though, is so far out of fashion now that firm librarians don't even want to have reporters on hand.
Every Fourth Circuit opinion for the past five years. Not back to 1920 like the ICC project.
I never quite had an assignment like that at a firm, but I did spend my first summer of law school summarizing every case in a tax reporter referring to "inurement" in a 501c3 context ( working for a professor.) A thrilling time was had by all.
Seriously, though, what could possibly be more interesting than inurement? Before that I bet you thought charities were all charitable and shit.
...every case in a tax reporter referring to "inurement" in a 501c3 context
I got into an argument with the board of a 501c3 of which I was a member. They thought they could spend the principal of a fund to which donations had been made based upon the understanding and agreement that it was a "endowment fund".
I was able to trace the term 'endowment' back through Blackstone all the way to the Magna Carta and show that it had had the same meaning - something from which the income or increase was alienable but not the thing itself - for better than 800 years. I think there were glebes involved, too, and I referred to the Declaration of Independence for an example of more comtemporary usage of the term.. I loved it. Really, that's the sort of thing I actually like about law.
Come to think of it, working where you do, I bet inurement comes up occasionally. I have to admit that I haven't dealt with an inurement issue since that summer.
524: Not so much here, but I did some nonprofit work from time to time in my previous life. Here the "can we spend money like that?" stuff tends to be driven by state law.
Section 407 of the Transportation Act of 1920 trumps inurement whenever they might come in conflict. The possibility that a law school exam question can be constructed to present this conflict is reason enough to keep me out of the academy.
The reason I pushed on this as much as I did, both in reaction to the "sketchy" claim and also just generally to understand your thinking (which I'm not yet sure I really do), is because in reality I do this probably daily. At least weekly. Not in the plane travel context--just in my office. E.g., it's not at all infrequently that I'll need to,say, sit on a four hour conference call on which I have no role to play and no need to listen closely. I'm basically listening to see if topic x is discussed, and if it is, I'll pay close attention for 20 minutes. Otherwise, the call is background noise.
Now, I could just bill the client who wants me to do this for the whole four hours I'm doing it. But often I'll do some other work, with one ear on the call. The problem is (and this is where we get a close parallel to the airplane context), I'm usually not as efficient with one ear on an unrelated call, so my work will slow down. So it might take me three hours to do what it usually takes me (I know from doing it dozens of times) two hours to do. And I'm not doing a half-assed job on the other project--it's just that my thinking is constantly being interrupted by the call--I'm listening in for a minute here, a minute there, etc. So I'll only bill two hours to the second client, and bill two hours of call to the first. (And if they ask why I'm billing only two hours for a four hour call--which they've done, wondering if I skipped part of it or something--I'd say I worked on another matter for part of the time with the call on in the background.)
I really don't see how this is different from the airplane scenario, nor do I see what's wrong with it. And what's more, this is really just an exaggerated form what occurs in literally nearly every hour of my work day. I'm always setting out to do one task, and having it take three or four times as long as it should because I'm being interrupted with calls and urgent emails and coworkers stopping by my office on other matters. And at the end of the day I do my best to allocate the time fairly across the various clients I've worked for. But I generally spend a lot of time simultaneously doing things for two (or three) clients--editing a document while I'm on the phone, etc., and having to allocate that time across those clients in a way that makes sense.
As I'm thinking about it, I'm honestly not sure I've ever done what I described upthread as my billing practice for working for multiple clients on a plane. I might have; I just don't really remember. But there's no question it's what I would do in that situation, without thinking twice, since that's essentially a variation of what I do on a daily basis. And I can only repeat what I said earlier: I'm sure every client would prefer me fresh and well-rested and totally focused on their problems (and theirs alone), without distraction, for as long as needed. But that's not always, or even generally, realistic.