Re: Spanglish?

1

I did know that, but until following some links from that Wikipedia article I didn't know anything about Anacreon himself, who sounds like an interesting figure. I also like the name of his hometown.

Key went to St. John's, and is probably still its most famous alumnus.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:21 PM
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1: Is it common knowledge that our national anthem takes the melody of a British pub song? I was treated like a n00b for not knowing this to be the case.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:26 PM
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Yes, it is.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:28 PM
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2: yes.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:28 PM
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I'd say it's common knowledge among the sorts of people who know this kind of trivia.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:30 PM
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Well, crap.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:30 PM
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As you can see.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:30 PM
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Why "sampling"?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:32 PM
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Yes, 6 posted before reading 5, and I learned it around a table of people who knew this sort of trivia, including a friend fresh from being on Jeopardy!.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:33 PM
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Why "sampling"?

I have no idea how to answer this question.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:34 PM
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F. Scott Fitzgerald was some manner of descendant of Key's and is named for him.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:35 PM
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It's probably not common knowledge among, say, drummers.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:36 PM
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It was covered in my middle school history class.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:39 PM
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12: The drum part to the song is really, really boring. You just roll the whole time. No wonder I missed out.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:42 PM
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The drum part to the song is really, really boring.

That's where the drinking comes in.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:43 PM
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15: Oh. I have not ever mastered the one-handed drum roll, so I've been missing out.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 3:55 PM
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I did not know it Stanley, although it seems somewhat familiar so I may have known it at one time. My daughter knew from middle school, so maybe it is something that *young* people know.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 4:20 PM
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The post title reminds me of the crazy brouhaha last year over the supposed indignity of translating our national anthem into Spanish. I say the more the merrier. Of course, I'm the heathen who loves the Hendrix version too, so you can't trust me.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 4:52 PM
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¿José, puedes ver?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 4:57 PM
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19: That's the best pun I've heard in a week.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 4:58 PM
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Gracias.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 4:59 PM
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Because I spit on people who make puns around me, but still.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 4:59 PM
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19 is teh funny.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:01 PM
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¿José, puedes ver

que les gusta joder?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:02 PM
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translating our national anthem into Spanish

According to the terms of the licensing agreement for the British pub song, the national anthem can be translated into only 5 languages at any one time. Takedown notices will be issued if additional translations are made unless one or more previous translations have been deauthorized.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:07 PM
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In the course of looking up "joder" (which I was not familiar with), I found the remarkably detailed Wikipedia article on Spanish profanity. Turns out there's a lot of it, and it varies enormously by region.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:12 PM
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26: Excellent. In 24 I meant it as "fuck shit up" more or less.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:16 PM
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Love Aikman: "Jennings has been an understated receiver for a long time. You don't hear much about him."


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:16 PM
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I would like to hear some Anacreon in the Ionian Dialect, as best we can manage. My thought was that "To Anacreon in Heaven" might have some sonic relation to Greek, but apparently those Londoners were drinking to translations. I think.

Looked around a little, but didn't care enough to dive into Perseus. Wiki should have everything, and then one more link.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:17 PM
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I hear that undertakers don't get much.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:18 PM
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19 and 25 both made me laugh. 24 sent me elsewhere to verify, where I picked up some helpful other terms that I now have to remember never to use. (Learning taboo words in other languages is so much more dangerous, because you don't have any emotional attachment to the taboo. I live in fear that someday I will say a grossly offensive word in a situation where I mean a mild joke.)

||

Who these days still has an answering service? I feel like I'm in the 1950s.

||>


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:20 PM
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26:Wikipedia surprises me with its uncensored content.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:21 PM
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"O'zog, kenstu sehn": the Star-Spangled Banner in Yiddish.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:22 PM
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From the link in 26:

Sometimes the term lavahuevos ("ball-washer" or "testicle-scrubber") is used in the same context as "brown-noser" in English (personally degrading oneself for another's approval).

::chanting under breath:: Do not learn this term, do not learn this term, do not learn this term.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:24 PM
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I know lots of Spanish slang. It's often country-specific. Argentines are boludos and have boludeces, but only if you really know them or want to offend. Dominicans have vainas, maybe less offensive, but I wouldn't say it to my grandmother. Spaniards say joder a lot, which means "fuck" and is more or less as appropriate as saying so in English. Mexicans have the verb chingar and calling something a chingada. I should write a book.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:28 PM
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I meant it as "fuck shit up" more or less.

Literally.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:30 PM
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I think I should have been watching that playoff game. I guess I still can.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:31 PM
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I should write a book.

Already done, and it was very titillating to teenage me.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:31 PM
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36: Don't even get me started on the difference between honear and homear, huevón.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:32 PM
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35: You should write a book, but it may already have been written, somewhere out there! Alas. We had at the bookshop a fascinating book -- sold now -- on obscene or offensive gestures in various cultures, with excellent drawings. Anthropology, you know. There's nothing like paging through drawings of the thumbing-of-the-nose, the flicking of the chin, the, uh, upthrusting forearm from the elbow gesture of, I think, Italians, and so on. Lo, we also had many lesser known gestures. It was great.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:34 PM
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Holy shit. 96 points altogether but AZ finally wins it in OT when a defender forces Rodgers to fumble and another dude runs into the end zone for the final TD.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:38 PM
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I know lots of Spanish slang

English--outside some of its Urban Dictionary documented micro-cultures--is really impoverished in vulgar slang.

A good one: "Me cago en la leche que mamaste."


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:40 PM
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Most of the Spanish I know (not much, and I've forgotten a lot) is Mexican. The main offensive phrase I've heard used in NM is pinche güero. Wikipedia defines pinche more or less as I'd expect, and güero as meaning a blond or light-haired person, which I suspect in NM means an Anglo. Note that the racial dynamics in NM are rather different from those in Mexico.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:44 PM
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42: The canonical version I've heard is "Me cago en la leche de tu puta madre". Which is not polite.

Also not polite in Chile "la concha de tu puta madre". Don't say that unles you're ready to fight.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:46 PM
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On the OP, that was anything but innovative. Before the recent perversions in copyright law, people would freely re-use melodies however they saw fit. cf. Amazing Grace, Yankee Doodle, Brahms' Hungarian Dances and so on.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:54 PM
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I blame Dickens.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 5:59 PM
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Wikipedia defines pinche more or less as I'd expect

Yeah, although in Chile it means barrette. (Actually, that entire post is directly on point to this thread.)


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 6:12 PM
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I wonder when she worked at Frontier. I used to go there a lot in the few years before that post. She doesn't look very familiar, but it was a while ago.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 6:22 PM
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although in Chile it means barrette.

In Chile, "guagua" means small child. In Cuba, it means bus. In Cuba, "coger" is devoid of double entrende and means get/take. In Chile, it's almost exclusively used as a swear.

There are many (possibly apocryphal) tales of Cubans asking very taken aback Chileans, "donde puedo coger una guagua?"


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 6:27 PM
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||
For some reason I always just Google Unfogged rather than typing the url or making a bookmark. But it lets me be amused by the subtopics that come up. The current crop and layout are pretty good.

About Heebie-Geebie                My Match
I'm Sufficiently Into You         Greetings
I have here in my hand a list    French Laundry
Ogged                                                Fuck Me. Heels
|>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 6:59 PM
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Isn't anyone going to bring up the "urban cavepeople" story in the Times so we can all make fun of it?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 6:59 PM
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Doesn't everyone love

(a) Hendrix's "Star-Spangled Banner"
(b) Elyse Sewell

?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:01 PM
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This thread reminds of the scene in El Norte where the guy starts swearing in order to make the immigration officials think he's Mexican.

I've been getting told that I've posted too many comments in too short a time, and so cannot post a comment. Maybe this will get through.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:09 PM
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Please don't use objectless "reminds".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:11 PM
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I've been getting told that I've posted too many comments in too short a time, and so cannot post a comment

Time stamp correction fallout would be my guess.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:11 PM
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51: Sure. I'm generally inclined to a more positive view of the hunter-gatherer lifestyle than most people, but the people in the article sound insane.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:11 PM
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Aargh, cross-thread pwnage.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:12 PM
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Please don't use objectless "reminds".

This reminds of a certain question for you.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:14 PM
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The metafilter thread on the cavemorons was pretty good.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:16 PM
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I was a little puzzled by why the caveman needed a special 'meatlocker' in his living room. Putting his meat in the regular refrigerator would have been less Paleolithic somehow?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:22 PM
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A little truth barks loudly around the outskirts of the cavedudes' lifestyle: hunter-gatherer living sucks. Everything about it is a tedious, exacting pain: finding food, finding water, finding shelter, making fire, freezing by night, burning by day, smelling like Kit Carson's old shoes, trying not to get dysentery and failing.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:28 PM
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He probably didn't have enough room in his refrigerator for all the meat he thought he needed.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:28 PM
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61: Exactly, which is why none of them seem to want to actually live like hunter-gatherers. They mostly just want to eat lots of meat and brag about how strong they are.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:30 PM
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I first thought 51 would be a link to the article about the couple who left their scientific jobs to live in a yurt in Alaska. "Hey, they shouldn't be figures of fun", I thought.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:32 PM
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I think it's also likely that the cuts of meat he wants to store are larger than your standard filets.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:34 PM
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smelling like Kit Carson's old shoes

Kit Carson didn't have old shoes. He just had skin that had served its purpose.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:36 PM
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Most food most hunter-gatherers ate came from gathering.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:40 PM
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They mostly just want to eat lots of meat and brag about how strong they are.

Most people with those two characteristics are kind of troglodytic.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:43 PM
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I don't buy far into the idea, but Art DeVany or whatever his name is had what seemed to me a good heuristic for vegetable-eating: as many colors in addition to green as you can manage.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:48 PM
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I have kind of a lot to say on the general subject of hunter-gatherer versus agrarian lifestyles, actually. More than I can really say coherently here and now. This article would be a good news hook for a post. Briefly, though, these people are totally missing the point.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 7:54 PM
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these people are totally missing the point

As presented, they do seem a little simple-minded on the subject.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:00 PM
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I wouldn't have thought there was a point to being a hunter-gatherer.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:00 PM
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I thought the point was hunting and gathering.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:01 PM
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There isn't a point to being a hunter-gatherer in a hunter-gatherer society. There generally is a point to deciding to live like a hunter-gatherer in an industrial society.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:02 PM
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I am half troglodytic!


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:02 PM
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Hunter-gatherers are beings whose being is an issue for them, just like all of us.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:03 PM
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Not that the people in the article are actually living like hunter-gatherers, of course; they're just pretending to. But the way they present their lifestyle owes a lot to some very strange ideas about hunter-gatherers and human evolution. Note that the anthropologists quoted in the article don't seem supportive of the idea.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:05 PM
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There generally is a point to deciding to live like a hunter-gatherer in an industrial society

But I don't think that's necessarily what people on paleo diets are up to. They're just trying to come up with a diet and exercise plan that has some supposed scientific rationale for being more effective than others.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:06 PM
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There generally is a point to deciding to live like a hunter-gatherer in an industrial society.

What point is that, and how are they missing it? It seems to me that they mostly go wrong in having utterly ridiculous ideas about what any hunter-gatherers actually did.

They're just trying to come up with a diet and exercise plan that has some supposed scientific rationale for being more effective than others.

I suspect the science stuff is mostly façade and the real appeal lies in getting back to soil.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:10 PM
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I'm just now reading the article, and this:

These urban cavemen also choose exercise routines focused on sprinting and jumping, to replicate how a prehistoric person might have fled from a mastodon.

is really wonderful.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:10 PM
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I suspect the science stuff is mostly façade and the real appeal lies in getting back to soil.

Williamsburg or Portland cavemen, maybe. But a lot of these diets are pitched at suburban gym rats who just want to be buff: Amazon search for "paleo diet".


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:16 PM
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From the picture in the article, I see they have one cute girl with serious glasses. Back in the 90s, that was most of what you needed to start a band, so I think they know how to go about starting a trend.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:19 PM
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From the picture in the article, I see they have one cute girl with serious glasses.

From the text of the article, it appears that she's the only girl in the entire movement.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:23 PM
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she's the only girl in the entire movement

That's why so much of the music in the 90s was so angst-ridden.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:26 PM
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What point is that, and how are they missing it?

Depends on the person making the choice, I suppose, but the general idea is that hunter-gatherers were healthier than early agriculturalists, so emulating a hunter-gatherer lifestyle would be a way to capture some of those benefits. I don't actually buy that this is true, but given a realistic idea of what a hunter-gatherer lifestyle consists of (which these people are decidedly lacking) it has a certain plausibility and is unlikely to do any serious harm.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:26 PM
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Isn't so-called urban cavemoron M/l/ssa McEw/n also a noted blogger? Maybe this is one of these "Do a silly thing for 12 months" projects.

These urban cavemen also choose exercise routines focused on sprinting and jumping, to replicate how a prehistoric person might have fled from a mastodon.

I believe a profile of Nouriel Roubini claimed he had exactly this exercise and diet plan.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:28 PM
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The main fallacy in the idea, of course, is that the unhealthy lifestyle of early agricultural societies is comparable to the supposedly unhealthy lifestyle of our own industrial society.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:28 PM
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From the text of the article, it appears that she's the only girl in the entire movement.

Among the ten people in NYC who are mentioned in the article, you mean.

This is a hit piece, intended to make these people look as crazy as possible. (And there's plenty of ammo for that, I'll concede.) I'm certainly not "paleo", but, e.g., Cordain's book is surprisingly good.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:30 PM
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Among the ten people in NYC who are mentioned in the article, you mean.

True.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:31 PM
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Depends on the person making the choice, I suppose, but the general idea is that hunter-gatherers were healthier than early agriculturalists, so emulating a hunter-gatherer lifestyle would be a way to capture some of those benefits.

Then they aren't missing the point. That's what they think too.

The main fallacy in the idea, of course, is that the unhealthy lifestyle of early agricultural societies is comparable to the supposedly unhealthy lifestyle of our own industrial society.

That seems comparatively unimportant: all you need to do is also believe that hunter-gatherers were healthier than us currently. You don't need to think that their health compares to ours the same way it did with agricultural societies, except in being better overall.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:32 PM
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This one is a real gem, also:

"New York is the only city in America where you can walk," said Nassim Taleb

Is it really, Nassim Taleb? The only one?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:32 PM
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the supposedly unhealthy lifestyle of our own industrial society

What's the "supposedly" there supposed to mean?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:34 PM
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Whoops, by "Nouriel Roubini" I mean "Nassim Taleb".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:38 PM
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Then they aren't missing the point. That's what they think too.

Fair enough. If you're just quibbling over the proper use of the phrase "missing the point" I'll concede. The problem I'm pointing to is that they're totally wrong about what it means to live like a hunter-gatherer, so they're not going to be able to capture whatever benefits might accrue from living that way.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:39 PM
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That seems comparatively unimportant: all you need to do is also believe that hunter-gatherers were healthier than us currently.

Right, but there's very little evidence for this, whereas there's tons of evidence that hunter-gatherers were healthier than early agriculturalists.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:40 PM
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Now I'm wondering if this is the rationale behind the diet of someone I know who eats only one meal a day, which is a large, meat-intensive dinner.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:41 PM
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What's the "supposedly" there supposed to mean?

That the "paleos" believe our current lifestyle to be unhealthy compared to their idea of a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:41 PM
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No comments on the opening line?

LIKE many New York bachelors, John Durant tries to keep his apartment presentable -- just in case he should ever bring home a future Mrs. Durant.

Presumably the apartment needs to be clean should the occasion arise for getting down on one knee.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:47 PM
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Or, you know, clubbing the potential suited and dragging her back to the cave.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:48 PM
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96: There are so many sorts of diets out there whose names I can rarely manage to connect to their overall plans: there's just the protein-intensive one, and the carb-intensive one, and the ones suggesting many small meals per day, and the ones suggesting one large meal per day. And so on. Whatever. Which one is most appropriate depends a great deal on the rest of your lifestyle.

These paleo diet people aren't utterly ridiculous as long as they combine the meat-intensive diet with rigorous exercise.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:49 PM
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96: my understanding is that's a different (though compatible and sometimes co-practiced) diet, known somewhat comically as the "Warrior Diet".


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:49 PM
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The tribe is not indigenous to New York. Several followers of the lifestyle took up the practice after researching health concerns online and discovering descriptions of so-called paleolithic diets and exercise programs followed by people around the country and in Europe. The group's lone woman, Melissa McEwen, 23, was searching for a treatment for stomach troubles. She started reading the blog of a 72-year-old retired economics professor who lives in Utah, Arthur De Vany.

Well, at least they're looking beyond the veldtway.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:51 PM
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100.last: Pretty much any diet that isn't straight-up Corn-Nuts and Twizzlers isn't utter ridiculous combined with rigorous exercise.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:51 PM
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I thought the focus on meat in the article was a little weird. I'm sure there's exceptions, but generally they're really not overly focused on meat, so much as focused on not eating foods that were unavailable prior to modern agriculture. So sure, there's meat, but also nuts and berries and fruits and vegetables--and I think most people recognize all those as equally or even more important than just meat.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:54 PM
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Mr. Taleb, who rejects the label "caveman" in favor of "paleo," avoids offices (including his own) as much as he can [me too! - JPS]. He prefers to think on the go. Dressed in a tweed coat and Italian loafers, this paleo man is a flâneur sometimes walking miles a day, ranging from SoHo to 86th Street.

No early Early Agrarians need apply.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:56 PM
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Isn't so-called urban cavemoron M/l/ssa McEw/n also a noted blogger?

As far as I can tell, that's a different person with the same name.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:56 PM
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103: Yeah. Although. One wonders what a nutritionist would say to someone past middle age who's eating a meat-intensive diet, even combined with exercise. I only skimmed the article: are these people taking any vegetables to speak of? TJ upthread suggests yes.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:57 PM
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"Are you going for a 24?" Matthew might ask Andrew, describing a fast by its duration in hours.

Hunter-gatherers are well-known for their adherence to time-discipline. It reflects perfectly the rhythms of the seasons and the life-cycles of flora and fauna.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:57 PM
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Isn't so-called urban cavemoron M/l/ssa McEw/n also a noted blogger?

The picture in the article and a google search of the name should quickly convince you that there are at least two women with this name, and that the one is not the other.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:57 PM
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Slate will soon publish a contrarian trend piece on the need to follow a "Eunuch Diet."


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:58 PM
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104: Except weren't most fruits and vegetables developed after agriculture, though I suppose not "modern agriculture." I mean, the actual hunter-gatherers usually had the ancestors of what we eat, but nothing like we would call an apple or carrot.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:58 PM
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107 crossed with 104. Okay, the article does seem like a hit piece in that case.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 8:59 PM
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I'm sure there's exceptions, but generally they're really not overly focused on meat, so much as focused on not eating foods that were unavailable prior to modern agriculture. So sure, there's meat, but also nuts and berries and fruits and vegetables--and I think most people recognize all those as equally or even more important than just meat.

If this is the case (and I have no reason to doubt it) it makes much more sense than the meat-centric diet implied by the article. As nosflow noted above, a hunter-gatherer diet is based mostly on gathered rather than hunted foods.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:00 PM
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111: sure, that's true. And they also had nothing like a modern corn-fed cow. You approximate as best you can.

I know the article really made these people look silly, but they've actually thought about all this stuff.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:00 PM
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You can gather meat!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:00 PM
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It really just sounds like a low- or no-carb diet.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:02 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:02 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:02 PM
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115: "gather" s/b "scavenger"


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:02 PM
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It's interesting how many variants there are on the general theme of primitivism. There's Zerzan and his bunch, who don't actually live anything like a primitive lifestyle. There's the folx who try to do everything with tools they flintknapped themselves, but aren't particularly political. And there's these folx, who seem to be just more suckers for the fad diet industry to exploit. The description of them as schmibertarians who grumble about vegans fits in pretty well with the individuals I've met who are plugged into the same nonsense. I'd rather hang out with a bunch of skinheads arguing about whether the new Fred Perry lines at Macy's are "strictly trad" or not, frankly. I mean, if there's one thing we know about human physiology, one thing that we can be abso-fucking-lutely sure of, it's that humans are consummate omnivores. There's Inuit people who eat almost nothing but fish and arctic mammals, vegetarians of all stripes and exceptions, meat-and-potatoes rural midwestern Americans, French people with their fancy sauces -- and pretty much anyone of those diets can easily keep you alive and relatively healthy into your 70s or so, which is a lot longer than paleolithic people generally lived. Just like that idiot who went on the "survival" course, and died because the instructors wouldn't let him drink when he was thirsty, these folx are totally missing the point.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:03 PM
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but they've actually thought about all this stuff.

The soft bigotry of low expectations strikes again.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:03 PM
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114: If by "stuff" you are excluding history and anthropology, sure.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:04 PM
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As usual, wikipedia isn't a bad overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:06 PM
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Also, referring to a regular chest freezer, like you can buy for $175 down to Menard's, as a "meat locker" is really over-egging it a bit, as Frowner would say.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:06 PM
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The focus on the Paleolithic is particularly odd, I have to say. I mean, hunter-gatherer groups are rare today (though not completely nonexistent), but they were common around the world well into the nineteenth century, and many are well-documented by ethnographers.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:07 PM
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He explained that tomatoes are part of the nightshade family, arguing that they are native to the New World and could not have been part of humanity's earliest diet.

No hunter-gatherers in the New World. At least no real ones.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:07 PM
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(You have to pull the period from the hyperlink in 123.)


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:08 PM
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I snort at any paleo who hasn't run down a pishkun.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:08 PM
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The pemmican manifesto is not much of a manifesto.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:08 PM
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I make fun, but the Paleolithic focus is at least intellectually defensible given their conception of time operating on a strictly absolute evolutionary scale with no understanding of culture.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:08 PM
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126 occurred to me too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:09 PM
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125: I remember reading somewhere that some doubt the comparability of recent hunter-gatherers to the paleolithic sort as people with agriculture sort of pushed the hunter-gatherers on to more marginal tracts of land.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:10 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:10 PM
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>i> I mean, hunter-gatherer groups are rare today (though not completely nonexistent), but they were common around the world well into the nineteenth century, and many are well-documented by ethnographers.

The focus is supposed to be on food we evolved to be able to digest well, not on the hunter-gatherer lifestyle per se.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:10 PM
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I mean, hunter-gatherer groups are rare today (though not completely nonexistent), but they were common around the world well into the nineteenth century, and many are well-documented by ethnographers.

And almost all are held out by the "paleo" movement as examples of health. They draw a lot of their inferences about diet/lifestyle from those documentaries.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:10 PM
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132 to 135, I guess.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:12 PM
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The article is obviously a hit piece, plus I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people were putting the reporter on. But who would read an article about mashing up gathered vegetables and such?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:12 PM
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I was pwned in the Paleolithic.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:12 PM
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What would a paleo do with an egg, a stove, a microwave, and a plastic cup?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:12 PM
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And they don't seem to understand how important sleeping in the night air is to the whole thing. They should sleep out on the streets of NYC, with all their stuff.

I'm not seeing nearly enough fear in these people. They don't appreciate the role fear played in paleo times?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:13 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:13 PM
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Basically, there are a lot of unknowns in the study of things like Paleolithic diet, which makes basing a lifestyle on it a rather dubious proposition. But, as I said above, it's unlikely to do any real harm.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:13 PM
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I mean, hunter-gatherer groups are rare today (though not completely nonexistent), but they were common around the world well into the nineteenth century, and many are well-documented by ethnographers.

It's both, really. The "lifestyle" is held out as one worth mimicking. Which is why they base their exercise around lots of walking, with occasional sprinting and jumping and climbing.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:13 PM
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143.last: Don't forget "playing catch with stones".


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:15 PM
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I feel weird defending these people, since I think they're fundamentally wrong, for a lot of the reasons teo is gesturing towards. But they're not nearly as wrong, or as silly, as that article would lead you to believe.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:15 PM
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What would a paleo do with an egg, a stove, a microwave, and a plastic cup?

Set a trap.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:15 PM
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Which is why they base their exercise around lots of walking, with occasional sprinting and jumping and climbing.

That's pretty much what my three-year-old does. He also eats like a caveman, at least in terms of table manners.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:16 PM
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145: I actually agree somewhat. Also with 130.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:17 PM
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Also, the idea that the one fellow walks A WHOLE FIVE AND A HALF MILES at a time, ALL THE WAY from Soho to 86th St. is more than a little ridiculous. I know plenty of folx who walk that much and more, because it's the way they get places, not on account of how they're pretend cavemen.

If this was a hit piece, the targets don't seem to have taken many precautions.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:19 PM
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ALL THE WAY from Soho to 86th St.

That also cracked me up.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:20 PM
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I've never read anything he wrote, but this article firmly convinced me that Taleb is a tool.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:23 PM
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Taleb and Roubini both seem like tools, but they also seem to have been right about the economy.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:24 PM
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It's gazelleschaft that's giving them more trouble.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:25 PM
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I wonder what paleolithic man would make of Roubini's vulva-studded apartment.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:26 PM
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153: Well played!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:27 PM
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the one fellow walks A WHOLE FIVE AND A HALF MILES at a time... I know plenty of folx who walk that much and more, because it's the way they get places

Really? I don't know anyone who walks that far regularly, unless they're doing it for the exercise. That's a long walk just to get somewhere. Why not ride a bike?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:27 PM
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And speaking of New York, I just watched Metropolitan again. Sigh. Carolyn Farina, why won't you love me?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:28 PM
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I don't think they'd have must of a problem with the idea.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:28 PM
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139 -- Eat the egg raw, but keep the other stuff in the apartment in case a girlfriend comes around. Wouldn't want to be thought a freak . . .


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:28 PM
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158 to 154. Plus "much" not "must".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:29 PM
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156: No, to be fair, most of the non-drivers I know would fain hop on a bike to go more than a few blocks. But I do know a bunch of confirmed pedestrians who walk at least 5 or 6 miles a day generally, and much longer treks when they need to.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:30 PM
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161: Including myself.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:31 PM
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So sure, there's meat, but also nuts and berries and fruits and vegetables--and I think most people recognize all those as equally or even more important than just meat.

It's about meat because meat is manly. All that other stuff requires women to be involved in order to gather - at least, that's much of the take-away I got from that article.

(And actually, most of the noted food foragers in the US right now are male.)

I never know how to balance the studies that show hunter-gatherers often worked less per day than agriculturalists, allowing for more leisure, with the sure knowledge that being a hunter-gatherer (in most environments) also meant periods of extreme want. I'm lazy, but I hate being hungry.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 9:57 PM
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I just discovered today that the Carnegie Museum of Natural History, which I've been visiting for two full decades now, has a reproduction of a couple rooms from a Hopi house (or whatever the right term is) that you can enter and in which you can grind corn. Iris loved it, and all I could think was , "teo would have all sorts of criticisms of this."


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:02 PM
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I would?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:03 PM
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Anyway, sounds interesting. I should go to Pittsburgh some day.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:04 PM
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It's about meat because meat is manly. All that other stuff requires women to be involved in order to gather - at least, that's much of the take-away I got from that article.

Well yeah, but that was my point--the article seems deliberately intended to give you this false impression.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:04 PM
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165: The Hopi are portrayed as wearing Steeler jerseys.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:05 PM
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There are probably Hopi Steeler fans.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:07 PM
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I have certainly encountered some "paleo" enthusiasts on the Internet that live down to the portrayal in the article, and others that do not.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:07 PM
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170: Yeah, the article could easily be an accurate portrayal of the handful of people it discusses and at the same time a grossly inaccurate smear of the movement as a whole.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:08 PM
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167: Sorry, Brock, I just wanted to make fun of them too, even though I was late to the party. I should have added the disclaimer that I don't believe all paleo-enthusiasts are quite as silly as the ones portrayed in the article.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:10 PM
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which I've been visiting for two full decades now

And I thought the 8 hours I spent at the Met was a long time.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-10-10 10:11 PM
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The focus is supposed to be on food we evolved to be able to digest well, not on the hunter-gatherer lifestyle per se.

There's an argument which isn't (I think) endorsed by a majority of palaeontologists but is definitely in the mainstream, that we (Homo sapiens sapiens) are in fact evolved to eat cooked food, both meat and grains/nuts, and our digestive systems and metabolisms have been adapting to this since the domestication of fire by Homo erectus. So you're llikely looking at an early Lower Palaeolithic diet here, which was followed by a different species.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:12 AM
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174: Do the paleophilics consider that a diet suited to conditions where a little bit of arthritis meant getting eaten by something else also hunting out there on the veldt might not be a diet suited to being in one's sixties or older?


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 5:44 AM
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175. Good question. From what I can find, paleophilics seem to make it up as they go along. The version in the wikipedia article looks much like any other fashionable diet for people with loads of money to throw at expensive food. Plus low sodium. Well, d'uh.

The idea of extrapolating palaeolithic diets from what modern hunter gatherers eat is extremely suspect, because modern hunter gatherers live in marginal areas by definition (if they weren't marginal people would cultivate them). As far as archaeological evidence goes, I'm not an expert, but it seems to add up to: "hungry people will eat anything".


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 6:17 AM
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"hungry people will eat anything".

That's Taco Bell's motto.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 6:31 AM
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The Hopi are portrayed as wearing Steeler jerseys.

This is true!

There are these little dolls that have some sort of cultural significance (it was late in the day at this point), and one of them was in a Steelers jersey!

Actually, the Arctic exhibit is pretty awesome, with mounted caribou and polar bear, plus (full size) dioramas of an Inuit hunting seal at a breathing hole and an guy in a kayak hunting a walrus. There's also a full-size igloo that you can walk through and there's a woman behind glass scraping sealskins or whatever. Scientifically what's interesting is that the Carnegie sent a team to the Arctic around 1925 or 1930 and then sent another one to the same place 40+ years later, so you get some longtitude to the study.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 8:32 AM
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I would?

I think of you as having pretty definite opinions on such things.

I should go to Pittsburgh some day.

You should. We could totally give you the planner's-eye view tour of the city. Maybe we could borrow one of Moby's SUVs.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 8:33 AM
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178: Just to be clear, I hadn't seen the Hopi exhibit. I'll look next time I'm there. (Actually, it probably won't be next time since that is already promised as a dinosaur trip.)


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 8:34 AM
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179: But I've only got two.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 8:35 AM
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modern hunter gatherers live in marginal areas by definition (if they weren't marginal people would cultivate them)

Wasn't pretty much all of New Guinea h/g well into this century? Surely that entire island isn't "marginal"? I mean, perhaps not optimal for cropland, but it's certainly abundant by a variety of measures.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 8:42 AM
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that is already promised as a dinosaur trip.

It's just right upstairs. Surely the promise of an Eskimo hunting a walrus is sufficient temptation to get you upstairs? In the Indian exhibit (which is through the Arctic one), there's a canoe you can sit in, which pleased both of my kids a fair bit.

If there's still reluctance, you can always promise corn-grinding. Kids love that.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 8:44 AM
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182: New Guinea had a fair bit of slash and burn agriculture, I think.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 8:45 AM
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I hadn't seen the Hopi exhibit

I know, that's what's so funny.

Actually, the Native Americans exhibit makes a point of covering the cultural history as it's evolved - the diorama of a Hopi wedding shows the groom carrying a sack of name-brand flour, and the vitrine with balls and dice also includes lottery cards from early* Indian casinos.

It was put together in the early 90s, so it's fairly modern in approach/outlook

* as in 1980s - early relative to Foxwoods and the like


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 8:48 AM
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There are probably Hopi Steeler fans.

The poor deluded fools. Clearly an example of the triumph of Hopi over experience.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 9:09 AM
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First we gave them smallpox, then we stole their land. Now we're using them for cheap puns?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 9:16 AM
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Wasn't pretty much all of New Guinea h/g well into this century?

The lowlands were, I understand (that's last century, to you); the highlands had some agriculture. But that's the point. The agricultural people turned up and took over the best foraging land for crops. Which was tough shit for the hunter gatherers who were marginalised, but so it goes.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 9:22 AM
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I've been trying to think of a cheap, and yet not overly offensive, pun playing off the Hopi qacina in a Steeler jersey and GOP head Steele's recent troubles. I'm not having any luck, but I'm sure one of y'all can get it done.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 9:50 AM
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First we gave them smallpox, then we stole their land. Now we're using them for cheap puns?

Excuse me, not cheap. That pun was the result of an education that was expensive, athletic and prolonged.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 10:01 AM
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Any recommendations for details on a Banana Republican costume? I'm thinking navy blue suit, red tie, Honduras flag pin, and a straw hat.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 10:47 AM
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191: Seersucker suit?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 10:48 AM
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191: A "Dole for president" pin and a "Dole banana" sticker?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 10:54 AM
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Seersucker suit?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 10:55 AM
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What the hell happened there? That was supposed to read

Seersucker suit?

In camo, with sunglasses.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 10:57 AM
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People, I'm not having anything tailored.

193 is clever.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 10:58 AM
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||

Where'd the word nerd thread go? Arg:

In an interview with the CBS news magazine "60 Minutes," Steve Schmidt described Palin as "very calm -- nonplussed" after McCain met with her at his Arizona ranch just before putting her on the Republican ticket. [My emphasis]

Amusingly, calm and confused would seem a believable description, even if it's presumably not what he meant.

|>


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 12:18 PM
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"very calm -- nonplussed in on"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 12:29 PM
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Other than the guy who eats raw grain-fed beef, this doesn't seem any more ridiculous than any other lifestyle fad.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:02 PM
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Other than that guy? I've eaten raw grain-fed beef on several occasions, and doing as I do is no more ridiculous than any other lifestyle fad.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:11 PM
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Mmm. Raw meat. I should eat someplace that serves steak tartare sometime. Or carpaccio.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:12 PM
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Given the comment number, it should have been Kobe beef. It wasn't.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:12 PM
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There are these little dolls that have some sort of cultural significance (it was late in the day at this point), and one of them was in a Steelers jersey!

Kachina dolls, which are mostly made for sale to tourists and museums these days. That one must have been made by a Steelers fan.

I think of you as having pretty definite opinions on such things.

I suppose I do, but they're not necessarily negative. I am, for example, on the record as being in favor of reconstruction as a way of presenting archaeological sites to the public.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:17 PM
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200: Wait until the NYT Style article about you. You'll be considering seppuku then.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:19 PM
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200: I had steak tartare once. Very good. In the same meal, I also had my first ever sweat meat (delicious, kind of like fried oysters) and fois gras (this was just too rich for me).


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:21 PM
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I assume MH is talking about sweetbreads?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:22 PM
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206: Or sweaty bacon. Anyway, the waiter said it was the pancreas of something.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:24 PM
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Sweetbreads.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:25 PM
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I'll remember that. As I said, it was delicious.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:26 PM
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Steak tartare is awesome.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:31 PM
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I'll have to see if Costco doesn't sell them in a big box.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:31 PM
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211 to 209. I assume Costco does sell beef in a big box, though possibly not the kind of beef you want to eat without cooking.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:32 PM
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Here is a more reasonable introduction to the Paleolithic diet.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:47 PM
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String beans, peanuts, snow peas, and peas are not toxic when raw.

This is a little strange: "Since then, some other substances have entered the diet- particularly salt and sugar …"

Just try going without salt!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:51 PM
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Just try going without salt!

No. It would kill me.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:52 PM
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You'd think he'd also mention that apple seeds contain cyanogens.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 2:53 PM
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Reading the link in 213, he includes potatoes in the group of things that are poor in vitamins. If you keep going down, it is clear that he counts sweet potatoes (and probably sweat potatoes) in this. That's pretty much straight-up wrong, isn't it?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 3:00 PM
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There's a lot in that article that's straight-up wrong, and I'm actually using it to write a post explaining why this Paleolithic diet stuff is wrong. It's a hell of a lot more reasonable than the stuff in the Times article, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 3:02 PM
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Moby, you can get a pretty good steak tartare at Braddock's in the Renaissance Downtown.

FYI.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 01-11-10 4:19 PM
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