Re: Guilty.

1

I hesitated to post this due to posting-intensity concerns.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 9:47 PM
horizontal rule
2

Maybe the trombone quintet switched because they kept bumping the slides into each other when they "play in". Your average trumpet quintet doesn't have that problem.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 9:48 PM
horizontal rule
3

A trombone quintet sounds boss.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 9:48 PM
horizontal rule
4

3 isn't about any particular trombone quintet, nor is it a statement about generic trombone quintets. Rather, I mean that the idea of a trombone quintet appeals to me.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 9:52 PM
horizontal rule
5

3: It was great fun. The group is called "Mr. [President who is famous for having lived where I do and having founded a university I attended]'s Bones", which is a solid name, to boot.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 9:54 PM
horizontal rule
6

I'm sad they didn't manage to hit Pachebel's "Canon in D", which, please, wedding-havers, have that song no more.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 9:54 PM
horizontal rule
7

where were all those songs hits? is this band from new zealand or something?


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 9:56 PM
horizontal rule
8

I am surprised to discover that Bartolomeo Tromboncino was a real person (if wikipedia, citing the Grove Dictionary of Music, is to be trusted).

Bartolomeo is invoked in Roswell Rudd's half of the Ab Baar Trio & Roswell Rudd album Four, in his weird suite "The Year Was 1503"; each track is a showcase for one of the musicians and features a rambling introduction of a character by Rudd. His, of course, is Tromboncino; the others are the Hotel Drummer (name given in review quote below), the Horsehead Fiddler, and Big Eye Louis Nelson (also a real person, though he lived rather after 1503).

One Final Note sez:


The rest of the session is devoted to Rudd's four-part "The Year was 1503", announcing Roswell Rudd the vaudeville comedian! Suddenly the BIMhuis, a shrine of the Dutch avant-garde, becomes the Granit Hotel in the Catskills. Rudd introduces a series of fictional musical legends, using broad humor to poke fun at the excesses of jazz hagiography. The hotel drummer, the horsehead fiddler and Big Eye Louis Nelson are introduced in turn and in hyperbolic fashion before each has a chance to step forward to solo. On the opening piece, von Duynhoven does an especially good job of evoking his character with a solo that echoes the hotel drummer's name "Rattamacue P Segue Paradiddle and Yours Truly Pants Pressed While You Wait".

The piece concludes with Rudd himself as Bartolomeo Tromboncino, a Renaissance court trombonist who after a period of high success hit a low point during the depression. This Tromboncino also hung around with Copernicus, "my worthy constituent"--the turn of phrase borrowed from Charlie Parker's reference to Dizzy Gillespie at Massey Hall.

Roswell Rudd sounds fun.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:00 PM
horizontal rule
9

Also, it's Pachelbel.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:02 PM
horizontal rule
10

9: Duly fixed. I've been spelling that wrong for years, apparently.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:05 PM
horizontal rule
11

6 is great.

7: You didn't recognize the songs? I missed a few, but the phenomenon is wide-spread, I assure you.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:08 PM
horizontal rule
12

is this band from new zealand or something?

Australia, apparently. Note how the crowd goes wild when they get to "Waltzing Matilda."


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:11 PM
horizontal rule
13

also, CHARTSWEEP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNwvWGvhzY0&feature=related


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:12 PM
horizontal rule
14

Hm, they must not have the blues in this australia.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:13 PM
horizontal rule
15

really thought someone else would make that joke.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:13 PM
horizontal rule
16

Australia is a happy place.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:16 PM
horizontal rule
17

But then, the blues is happy music.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:17 PM
horizontal rule
18

10: You'll actually see it misspelled on album covers. On the kind of albums that have Pachelbel's Canon on them.

It's a great piece if you're a lousy musician because it somehow doesn't sound much different played well or played badly. To play Pachelbel's canon is essentially to hold a sign that says "Pachelbel's Canon" and everyone just hears the archetypal Canon in D, unmediated by actual experience.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:19 PM
horizontal rule
19

haha. was watching the 1989. i didn't know 'my prorogative' was a cover.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:19 PM
horizontal rule
20

I am now listening to Africa by Toto. THANKS, THREAD.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:20 PM
horizontal rule
21

20: Me to, but I love that song.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:21 PM
horizontal rule
22

14: I'm troubled by the number of younger musicians who don't know what a twelve-bar blues is. I mean, they know, once you explain it, but I suspect it's increasingly rare to call it that. They seem to file it under "blues" or "jazz" until someone objects, "It's actually pretty crucial to the history of rock music that you get this." At the risk of sounding all get-off-my-lawn.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:21 PM
horizontal rule
23

21: did I say that I don't?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:22 PM
horizontal rule
24

Now going through my head:

Bangkok, oriental setting
And the city don't know that the city is getting
The creme de la creme of the chess world
In a show with everything but Yul Brynner.



Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:22 PM
horizontal rule
25

23: I took the all caps as sarcasm.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:23 PM
horizontal rule
26

Although it does have a semi-egregious example of this.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:24 PM
horizontal rule
27

Africa's "Toto" is great and a super-fun song to cover. I got to do so at a wedding party once.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:24 PM
horizontal rule
28

I don't really know what a 12-bar blues is, but I'm not a musician.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:27 PM
horizontal rule
29

22 DOESN'T Really make sense to me. well maybe it does. i guess i can't think back on which songs are or aren't 12bb. and i was interested and never really figured out how rock music stopped being that, probably something to do with english music hall something soemithg. maybe its some mathy-autism thing.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:29 PM
horizontal rule
30

12 bar blues definitely doesn't read as "jazz" to me. As far as rock 'n roll goes, aside from a lot of early rock songs being basically 12 bar blues songs, it's the origin of the three chord rock progression, right? Is there more to it than that?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:34 PM
horizontal rule
31

24: One Night in Bangkok doesn't really fit, does it? It's hard to hear the chords in my head because Murray Head does it sort of parlando...

What kept popping into my head was Belle & Sebastian's "Sleep the Clock Around."


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:37 PM
horizontal rule
32

np wrexx-neffect - rump shaker


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:37 PM
horizontal rule
33

I love Wreckx 'n Effect. I basically just love New Jack Swing, actually.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:39 PM
horizontal rule
34

28: this isn't terrible and might tell you that they're playing the same chords under the whole, or much of the whole, song.

30: As far as rock 'n roll goes, aside from a lot of early rock songs being basically 12 bar blues songs, it's the origin of the three chord rock progression, right? Is there more to it than that?

I guess not. I'd say you're missing a lot of what you're hearing if you don't get where it came from, but I might be judgmental.

I can't, for example, think of a contemporary pop song that's a twelve-bar blues. But the idea is there.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:40 PM
horizontal rule
35

NZ was semi-famous back in the 80's for charting ridiculous post-punk songs -- Love Will Tear Us Apart debuted at Number One, I think, and the Fall occasionally peaked in the twenties.

(Speaking of odd hits in NZ.)


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:41 PM
horizontal rule
36

I guess not. I'd say you're missing a lot of what you're hearing if you don't get where it came from, but I might be judgmental.

Well, I don't like that much rock, and I've never been particularly excited about twelve bar blues, so that fits.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:45 PM
horizontal rule
37

It is nicer with the seventh chords.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:45 PM
horizontal rule
38

Further to 34 and at the risk of laboring a point too much: the twelve-bar blues is so simple an idea as to be available to all. You've all heard the form:

Posted this on Unfogged.
Posted this on Unfogged. Don't know the repercussions.
Whoa, whoa, doggie. My turkey has a concussion.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:48 PM
horizontal rule
39

And then it circles 'round and repeats the form.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:51 PM
horizontal rule
40

i thought new jack swing was that amorphous bassy rnb. from the time between pfunk and hiphop


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:56 PM
horizontal rule
41

I know the blues lyrical scheme, which, IIRC, isn't actually what you posted in 38.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:57 PM
horizontal rule
42

which is to say (some of my best friends are prince)


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 10:58 PM
horizontal rule
43

don't country soungs still chart in your landmass


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 11:00 PM
horizontal rule
44

41: Okay, so the music underneath all that traditionally goes (and "1" here just means the note you're starting on):

1
4
4-5-1


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 11:01 PM
horizontal rule
45

Shouldn't you be using Roman numerals, so that you can distinguish between I and i?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 11:05 PM
horizontal rule
46

Now neb's just funnin' me, and I'm going to go do other things until ttaM shows up and explains this better.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 11:08 PM
horizontal rule
47

I have sort of isolated pockets of knowledge in the midst of a much more general ignorance.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 11:10 PM
horizontal rule
48

So how is Waltzing Matilda conceived of by the youth of Australia? Kitsch? Part of unique cultural heritage? It gets a big cheer when Tom Waits mentions it at the beginning of "Tom Traubert's Blues" on Cold Beer on a Hot Night.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-19-10 11:17 PM
horizontal rule
49

Ironically (or maybe not), I was just reading this explanation of why that four-chord progression is so popular. Didn't think you were a MeFite though, Stanley.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 12:04 AM
horizontal rule
50

really though songs as slightly ritualized speech, at least speach as it ought to be, is probably what he's on about. haven't you every heard people talk, and ignored the wank?


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 12:13 AM
horizontal rule
51

Yeah, the trad. 12 bar blues is I (for 4 bars), IV (for 2), I (for 2), V for (2) and back to I (for 2). Then there are a zillion variations and complications. Often people go to the IV for the second bar, e.g

I IV I I
IV IV I I
V V I I

Then there are turnarounds [the last couple of bars at the end before you repeat], and there are loads of those.

Jazz players add all kinds of subs and harmonisations so that a typical bebop play might play a 12-bar like:*

I7 IV7 I7 vm7/I7
IV7 bVdim I7 iii7/VI7
ii7 V7 iii7/VI7 ii7/V7

and then they might do tritone subs on those, to take the progression even further away from the standard 12-bar.

* I had to look this up. I don't really remember the standard bebop type 12-bar progressions. I'm still really a beginning jazz player.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 12:13 AM
horizontal rule
52

mefi is the place that posters suck so much they get a yearly fine, right


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 12:14 AM
horizontal rule
53

I went to a high school music program over the weekend that listed "Pachelbel's Cannon in D." I was really looking forward to the 1812 remix by Tchaikovsky. Alas, it was only a typo.


Posted by: Dave W. | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 3:42 AM
horizontal rule
54

40: no, new jack swing was a specific style of heavily syncopated mid-tempo hip hop in, oh, the mid-eighties or so.

51: I thought the turnarounds in jazz were for whatever different progression; are they specifically a 12 bar blues thing? 'Cuz then I'll feel bad about 36.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 6:54 AM
horizontal rule
55

I don't know shit about music.


Posted by: ToS | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 7:35 AM
horizontal rule
56

Yes, people, listen to Stanley. Learn your 12-bar blues. It could very well be the only good thing America's done for anybody.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 7:42 AM
horizontal rule
57

56: That's not what your mom said.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 7:51 AM
horizontal rule
58

I find it almost impossible to believe the term "new jack swing" was coined before the movie "New Jack City" came out in 1991, but apparently it was coined in 1988.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 7:55 AM
horizontal rule
59

Mr Shu describes the Aca-fellas' style as New Jack Swing -- I am now picturing Sifu with his Justin Timberlake records.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:01 AM
horizontal rule
60

59: you aren't that far off. The biggest crossover success from the new jack swing scene was Bobby Brown. On the other hand, you can trace a direct line from New Jack Swing to dubstep. It's a funny genre.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:06 AM
horizontal rule
61

Man. Now I think I might go dig out my Buffalo Stance 12".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:07 AM
horizontal rule
62

to believe the term "new jack swing" was

When did Tone Toni Tony release "If I had no loot"? That's when I first can think of the phrase.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:08 AM
horizontal rule
63

Oh, 1993. Well, no biggie then. Still a great song.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:09 AM
horizontal rule
64

I love new jack swing but am also amused by ice cube's "you can new jack swing on my nuts."


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:15 AM
horizontal rule
65

64: apparently so was Toni Tony Toné, who sampled it for the song mentioned in 62.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:16 AM
horizontal rule
66

65: Tweeti Tweety Tweeté has done it again!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:20 AM
horizontal rule
67

huh, I did not know that. I'll just go listen to the song and be right back.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:20 AM
horizontal rule
68

aw, fuck, my youtube is b0rken. it won't load shit.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:22 AM
horizontal rule
69

re: 54

Lots of progressions have turnarounds, not just 12-bars. But in a 12-bar it's the last couple of bars before you go back to 1 again. e.g. in a 12-bar blues in in A, rock guitar players might go A7 E9 Eb9 D7 A7 E7, or something vaguely like that.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:24 AM
horizontal rule
70

69: it's often that way in dance music too, except they're 16 bar phrases and often the main progression is just two chords or whatever. Also dance music producers often don't know anything about music and call those two bars a "fill".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:44 AM
horizontal rule
71

Also dance music producers often don't know anything about music and call those two bars a "fill".

Those dumbasses.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:54 AM
horizontal rule
72

I should probably have said "music theory".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
73

Nah.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 9:05 AM
horizontal rule
74

"Boyz 2 men, abc, Sifu twee-tee - the East Coast family."

Are we really at a point in time when people need earnest historical explanation to know what new jack swing was? I guess we are.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 9:29 AM
horizontal rule
75

Also, has there ever been amore annoying prom/graduation/seventh grade slow dance song than Boyz2Men's "It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterdaaaay--ay.". I say no.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 9:35 AM
horizontal rule
76

Also, has there ever been amore annoying prom/graduation/seventh grade slow dance song than Boyz2Men's "It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterdaaaay--ay.". I say no.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 9:35 AM
horizontal rule
77

74: dude, we're at a point in time when new jack swing has been a hugely influential musical style for decades.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 9:40 AM
horizontal rule
78

77: Not one single new jack swing song holds a candle to "Billie Jean", though.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 9:53 AM
horizontal rule
79

77: For an incredibly lame and deceptive use of "decades".


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 11:10 AM
horizontal rule
80

79: He meant imperial decades, not metric ones.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 11:14 AM
horizontal rule
81

79: 1988-2010 doesn't count as "decades"? You save your plurals for multiples of three and above, or something? Fine, a duodecade and change.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 11:21 AM
horizontal rule
82

81: Yes, characterizing barely two decades as "decades" is one of the top 10 warnings signs of rhetorical-historical humbuggery (see umpteen-jillion examples from discussions of computing history).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 11:30 AM
horizontal rule
83

I reject any connection to your umpteen-jillion humbuggeries. Also I have no idea what that means. It has been decades! It has been two decades. If it were more than two I would have probably used a different term, to make it sound more impressive.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 11:35 AM
horizontal rule
84

I basically just love New Jack Swing, actually.

I share your new jack swing love.


Posted by: Lemmy Caution | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 12:02 PM
horizontal rule
85

83: perhaps for the sake of exclusively non-dual statement of emphatically plural numbers you should've gone with "almost a quarter of a century!" (!)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 1:10 PM
horizontal rule
86

Since the dawn of time, mankind has listened to new jack swing.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 1:13 PM
horizontal rule
87

I think I meant non-exclusively dual. Or "avoiding non-exclusively non-dual &c." In that I have no real point, it is difficult to commit to thinking it through more thoroughly.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 1:14 PM
horizontal rule
88

Actually, I believe there was a break point in the distant past before which mankind listened exclusively to what we now know as old jack swing (but was then, of course, known simply as jack swing.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 1:15 PM
horizontal rule
89

Funny, the only things I can easily commit to thinking through thoroughly are those which either have no point in themselves or those with which I have no point to make.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 1:15 PM
horizontal rule
90

what we now know as old jack swing

No, pre new jack swing music is known as new jamsterdam swing.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 1:17 PM
horizontal rule
91

Jack Swing I used to be known as the Great Swing (and was erroneously called the Swing to End All Swing).


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 04-20-10 1:24 PM
horizontal rule