Re: Ask the Mineshaft: Flour Power

1

Are you a thick-crust or a thin-crust devotee?

(Thin is harder at home.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:08 PM
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Sorry, will. It turns out nobody knows.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:08 PM
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Curse you, clew!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:09 PM
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Well, there is this.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:09 PM
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Also, surely someone here will recommend 00 flour. That is advanced pizza fu, for when one is working with a wicked hot oven.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:10 PM
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I like thin and thick!

My goal is to make pizza with all of the veggies from the farmers market!


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:10 PM
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Does the oo flour matter?

The oven is an ordinary oven.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:11 PM
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I wonder why Choire puts all that sugar in there. Blech?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:13 PM
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7: No. It's magic becomes available somewhere north of 800 degrees. Use regular unbleached, unbromulated flour.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:14 PM
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i assume you want pizza, and not lasagne, so you want the crust pulled/pusshed out to a very thin size

do whatever the other people say, and then let it sit in the fridge for a few days. i don't really like recipes, they reduce excitement

wet dough on a carbon steel pan with a whole lot (maybe 30% or more of surface area) of holes drilled out, on a really hot something, like a grill or stone. precooking the crust w/o toppings does well too. if you don't have lots and lots of heat, i think you can use a wetter dough.

if you want super easy, make a wet 'no knead' bread, just remember you need to cook it longer to get it dry (gooey dough isn't great). then push it out on a pan. don't push too hard if you used the hole-in-pan trick, flatten your dough on a silpat and flop it down when its the right size.

i'd sort of like a kitchen torch, i bet that would be a fun way to get the blackening you get from 900 degree dry ovens


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:14 PM
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8: I agree with rfts on the sugar -- what the heck? But agree with Choire on the salt, lovely salt.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:14 PM
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rfts is here!!! Of course, I still have sucked at making her heirloom beans.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:14 PM
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9: Unless you have regular bleached, bromulated flour because who wants to make a special trip to the store. Just don't use cake flour.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:15 PM
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stanley, come help me make veggie pizza.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:16 PM
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My main pizza tip is to buy some unglazed tiles and put them on the bottom rack of the oven, on its lowest rung, for a cheap, large pizza stone. Preheat way ahead to gibe the tiles plenty of time to heat fully and evenly.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:16 PM
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I don't think I've ever seen "Blech?" as a question before.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:17 PM
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sorry. those unnamed posts were me.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:17 PM
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Will, do you have a food processor? I don't know if my mom's recipe is the Lagrange solution, but I have it on hand, it's fairly simple, and I've always liked it.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:17 PM
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sorry. those unnamed posts were me.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:17 PM
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Sorry. These unnamed posts are me.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:17 PM
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Also, err on the side of undersaucing and fewer toppings.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:17 PM
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Sorry. These unnamed posts are me.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:18 PM
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What on earth does "bromulated" mean?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:18 PM
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if you want super easy, make a wet 'no knead' bread, just remember you need to cook it longer to get it dry (gooey dough isn't great).

I'm no master chef and my pizza dough recipe is the one that comes with the bread machine, but I doubt you want a 'no knead' dough for pizza. Without kneading, it won't be chewy.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:19 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:20 PM
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stanley, come help me make veggie pizza.

I can't; I've been busy making this cold bean salad thing, which I just pulled from the fridge after chilling it and made a sort of cold burrito thing. Delicious! Refreshing!

But do save me the leftovers, if there are leftovers, will.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:20 PM
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23: It's actually "bro-mulated" and means that if you hand a bag to a bro, he has to drop to one knee and snort the flour up his nose.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:21 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:22 PM
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Also, err on the side of undersaucing and fewer toppings.

I prefer over-sauced, but this is generally good advice. The fewer toppings thing is spot on. Veggies are full of water. You do not want watery pizza.

Also: people! Cheese all the way out to the edge. No exposed sauce at the edge*, for that is the stuff of ugly pizzas. (But do know that cheese concentration should be thinner moving out from the center, as cheese melts outward.)

*Actually, I don't really care about this rule, but a lot of pizza chefs take it very, very seriously for some reason.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:24 PM
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Also: people! Cheese all the way out to the edge.

What? This sounds like a recipe for a disaster no-crust pizza.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:25 PM
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Ill report back this weekend!


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:26 PM
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Also, DiGiorno's pizzas really are delicious.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:26 PM
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RTFS:
Ive already got a pizza stone.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:27 PM
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30: It's the way I was taught at two different pizza places. Cheese to right past the sauce, leaving plenty of crust. I think it's just an aesthetic thing, as I kinda like cooked exposed sauce right at the edge.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:27 PM
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shhhh, Heebie! Im trying to learn to cook here!


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:27 PM
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this weekend!

It's only Monday, will, you tease.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:28 PM
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Cheese to right past the sauce, leaving plenty of crust.

This is different than how I interpreted:

Cheese all the way out to the edge

I thought you meant cheese out to the edge of the bread dough. That sounds terribly sad and uncrusty.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:29 PM
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37: Cheese comity. (Chomity?) I was being unclear.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:30 PM
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Dough making will be hard with the kids running around.

Have I mentioned how much my daughter loves the Kraab>???? Be jealous, biotches.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:31 PM
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23: We are the Brog. Resistance is futile.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:31 PM
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It's magic

Nonstandard Grammar and I are going to put you to work in an underground cavern.

Anyway, will, you've got to commit.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:37 PM
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41: That guy recommends super-duper magical filtered water or, you know, Dasani in a pinch.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:40 PM
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Ive already got a pizza stone.

That was going to be my first question. I can't say about receipts recipes for the dough itself, but I'm pretty sure it has to be kneaded and so on. People say it's a good idea to make a bunch of dough, form it into balls, and freeze several for future use.

If you want to put a bunch of veggies on it, it'll need to be a thick crust, right? No watery veggies, as Stanley says. If you want to put veggies that are normally watery on there, you either have to render them non-watery first, or put them on at the very end. Right?

I always figure there are two ways to do pizza: veggies under the cheese, and veggies on top of the cheese. Delivery pizza pretty much always has the veggies on top; I never do that for homemade: it's always crust, sauce if any (might be just olive oil, or pesto), veggies, and then cheese.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:40 PM
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This from the Times the other day is fairly straightforward and sensible.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:45 PM
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Speaking of flour, wrote the man who can make oatmeal and not much else, the King Arthur Flour Co. Baker's Store is quite an experience. The Knights of the Round Table produce quite a range of flours, as it happens.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:45 PM
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If you want to put veggies that are normally watery on there, you either have to render them non-watery first, or put them on at the very end. Right?

Render non-watery by cooking them a bit before putting them on the pizza or what?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:45 PM
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45: And, like Bob's Red Mill, worker owned!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:45 PM
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We need an Unfogged cooking party.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:46 PM
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The Times is what got me started on this topic.

Plus, trying to figure out what to do with all of these veggies we buy from my ex-wife's farmer's market.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:47 PM
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49: She's not teaching the homeless art anymore?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:48 PM
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nope. She decided to go into the more lucrative world of running Farmer's Markets.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 6:50 PM
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Render non-watery by cooking them a bit before putting them on the pizza or what?

Yeah, or else eliminate most of the water from them. I'm thinking the only watery veggies you might want to put on pizza are raw tomatoes. In that case, you'd want to use tomatoes that are fairly meaty in the first place, or drain the water from them (in a strainer) for a while.

You cook pizza fairly quickly on high heat, so other watery veggies, like, say, squash (yellow or green), isn't going to have enough time to become wet.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:13 PM
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how about beets? A beet pizza? Or radishes?

Those are the things I want to try.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:14 PM
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People swear by Peter Reinhardt's dough, but it didn't work for me (I probably underworked it. Or maybe the yeast was dead. I'm not that good at bread). The only recipe I've had consistent success with is the one from the Cheese Board cookbook.

I recently bought a peel and I can't tell you how much easier it makes getting the pizza in and out of the oven. Trying to slip it off the back of a sheet pan == not recommended.

buy some unglazed tiles...

We've tried this several times over the years and could never find the appropriate tiles. Last year we bought 8 or 10 bricks instead, which are a PITA when they get dirty. Which department would this be at the home supply store?


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:15 PM
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That Times article seems right to me. I have some Artisan Bread in Five Minutes inspired dough in the fridge right now (made with some elaborations because I can't help myself from bread geekery). It's about a week and a half into its sitting in the fridge period and I'm sure it would make great pizza.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:18 PM
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I found them at Home Depot, among the tiles. I may have asked someone for "unglazed floor tiles". Also, I clean them via my oven's self-clean cycle.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:20 PM
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Stop the thread! I have the answer:
Pizza dough
How to cook it. Need a cast iron skillet and a good potholder. Ignore the part about using the self-cleaning cycle to get to 800 degrees- you preheat the iron pan on high flame to get it hot enough, then invert it in a 500 degree oven and you have a good approximation of a pizza oven.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:21 PM
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how about beets? A beet pizza? Or radishes?

I was about to ask you what you wanted to try.

I'd say ixnay on the radishes. Depends on whether what you're making is something normal people would call "pizza". Radishes? Surely you can find something else groovy to do with them.

I'm not big on beets, myself. I could see roasted beets -- if they're not downright soggy but kind of crisped up on the outside -- then the cooled rounds diced, onto pizza. Sure. I'd put some sprinkled goat cheese on that. Sounds quite plausible. Something green on there as well, some kind of robust greens. I'm not very well versed in beets.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:25 PM
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Heaven forfend you'd make something that would surprise the normals.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:37 PM
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Do any of the recipes include the line: "Flour: pour"?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:38 PM
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Oddly "flour" doesn't show up in The Chaos.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:41 PM
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Also, for some reason Americans don't spell it "flor".


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:46 PM
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If I had to rank them, I'd say that there are more ways we don't spell 'flour' than there are that we do.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:49 PM
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Hierarchist. I would just count them.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:52 PM
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Ways we spell 'flour': one.

Okay, you do the other category.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:55 PM
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Ways we don't: more than one. I'm done.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:57 PM
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Flour Pour.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:58 PM
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That spells floppor, silly.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:59 PM
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59: I'm just having trouble seeing a way to put radishes on pizza that doesn't wind up being a salad on top of pizza dough. Which is fine, and a pretty attractive idea, actually, but a lot of people might find it strange. I'm drawing a blank on other ways to put radishes on pizza, but I've never cooked radishes, so.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 7:59 PM
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but a lot of people might find it strange

Ok, so, who cares?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:03 PM
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Here's the Artisan Bread recipe for pizza dough:

2 3/4 cups water
Packet of yeast
1 1/2 Tbsp salt
1 Tbsp sugar
1/4 cup good olive oil
6 1/2 cups (812.5 g if you're weighing it) flour

Mix everything in a big bowl, don't knead, just get all the flour wet. Leave it out for two hours with a loose cover, then put it in the fridge (still with the cover). Some time in the next week or so, use it -- it should be enough for four normal pizzas. Don't worry about it not being chewy -- the long rise develops the gluten like kneading would.

I'm bad at getting the dough thin enough, so my pizza's not great, but this is good tasting dough. If you did the skillet trick it'd probably work great.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:03 PM
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Les flouaires de la pour.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:03 PM
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but I've never cooked radishes

If you slice the radishes and sweat them in a saute pan with a bit of butter, that might work.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:05 PM
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Then again, it might not. I've never tried to cook a radish in my life, nor even read how.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:06 PM
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A veggie pizza-topping combination I had thought unusual but which is really quite good is jalapeños and pineapple.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:07 PM
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Don't worry about it not being chewy -- the long rise develops the gluten like kneading would.

Thanks. Did not know that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:07 PM
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69: piadina. Yum.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:09 PM
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Ok, so, who cares?

What are you talking about? Right, so I'll put oranges on the pizza. How about oranges along with oregano along with eggplant along with diced bananas along with radishes? We'll drizzle the whole thing with blueberry yogurt. Topped with sprinkled parmesan cheese.

Whew --- I got carried away there, but enjoyed myself.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:13 PM
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78: As Fran Lebowitz put it:

People have been cooking and eating for thousands of years, so if you are the very first person to think of putting fresh lime juice in scalloped potatoes, try to imagine that there must be a reason for this.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:17 PM
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I've cooked radishes. They're lovely braised.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:18 PM
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79 is sweet.

I admit I'm being unfair to the radishes, though.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:21 PM
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Sweet is not often applied to Fran Lebowitz's writing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 8:28 PM
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I'm just having trouble seeing a way to put radishes on pizza that doesn't wind up being a salad on top of pizza dough.

Radish + fat + salt is a tried and true combo. And applying heat to radishes often makes them sweeter.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:02 PM
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What are you talking about?

Right back atcha, kiddo. What relevance is the fact that some people might find it strange? You, in the comment where you said that, also said it sounded appealing! Oranges and blueberries and eggplant and banana on a pizza isn't something "most people would find strange", or something beyond the bounds of what normal people consider pizza, it's something most people would find absolutely disgusting.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:03 PM
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Hell, you could even scatter thinly-sliced radishes on top of the pizza after it was cooked. People also put capers on pizza, and that sounds fine by me.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:04 PM
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If you think a combination 'doesn't work' you just haven't seen enough culinary tradtions.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:06 PM
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86: I think that in most cases (or at least my case), you had to have eaten something from a given tradition or related tradition by some reasonably young age before the flavors will ever be anything but a passing novelty for you. My tastes have certainly branched out over the years, but I don't think I'll ever really escape the flavors of the midwest in the 1970s. If my grandmother wasn't Italian and constantly cooking, I think I would be even more constrained in my diet.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:15 PM
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Blanching radishes mellows the bite and rounds out the flavor nicely. Still would make a nasty pizza topping.


Posted by: dob | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:23 PM
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87: That hasn't been true in my case, but maybe it is generally. I grew up eating a lot of things I now can't stand, and didn't eat some really basic foods at all until my 20's. It's not just international foods. I'm talking salad, eggs, avocados, artichokes. I never had any of those (except eggs as an ingredient in cake or something like that) until I was at least 20.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:25 PM
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And I almost never cook the kinds of food I grew up with, except as a very rare novelty.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:26 PM
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A fine pizza topping, commonly overlooked by many, is a simple dash of fresh minced garlic on top of the sauce, before the cheese is placed. Yu-um.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:27 PM
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A fine pizza topping, commonly overlooked by many, is the face of your rival, draped elegantly over the pie.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:31 PM
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89: I did get a fairly varied diet for a midwestern small town. For example, we ate artichokes and squid fairly frequently. But, not having eaten a solitary egg before twenty might be the strangest dietary quirk I've heard.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:31 PM
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It wasn't that we were particularly provincial, which wouldn't explain a lot of the foods I didn't eat--asparagus, mushrooms, green peppers. They were even served all the time in my house. I just didn't eat them. I liked ketchup and mustard until I was four or so, and then never ate them again. (Mustard I will tolerate now as greens or, maybe once a year if it's really grainy.) I'd never eaten mayonnaise until about a year ago.

Some foods were designated as foods only my father could eat, like artichokes and asparagus. I later learned my mother loved them, but my dad couldn't stand sharing either.

Others were just a weird thing about me. I eat an egg or two, either for breakfast or lunch, nearly every day now. But before 19, I'd never had quiche. Omelets came around 21, scrambled around 22, fried at 24, poached at 25. I've still never eaten a boiled one. Shudder.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:37 PM
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94 sounds like a family from "Cold Comfort Farm" or something. Except with access to a supermarket.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:39 PM
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I've heard of worse. A woman I used to work with at a lab had a younger brother who, at 18, had never eaten anything, she claimed, other than chicken, potatoes, and corn.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:42 PM
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Oh, and olives. I never had an olive until a few years ago. That turned out to have been an aversion caused by only having encountered disgusting olives.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:44 PM
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Soft boiled eggs and buttered toast probably the best way to eat an egg.

I still miss having artichokes the way I used to when I was younger. Grandma would stuff them with a cheese, bread crumb, spice mixture. Then you'd pull out the leaves and eat the filling and the soft portion of the leaves. Now I mostly just get artichoke hearts, which isn't the same.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:46 PM
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I was thinking more like "Poor father can't bear to know anyone else is eating his special foods. Ach, he loves them so! 'Tis just his way." (stage whisper: "He thinks they'll poison us.")


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:47 PM
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I would just slice any watery veg very thinly to allow them to roast in the time it takes for the crust to cook. I'm not the dough or saucemaker, but we make thin crust pizzas on a stone most weekends during cold weather. A lovely variation for greens and potentially radishes would be to add them after the pizza comes out of the oven. A local Neapolitan joint does this with arugala and basil on a goat cheese, garlic and olive topped pizza and it's phenomenal.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:49 PM
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Kobe loves was going to love but for Chopper Neruda on artichokes:

The artichoke
With a tender heart
Dressed up like a warrior,
Standing at attention, it built
A small helmet
Under its scales
It remained
Unshakeable,
By its side
The crazy vegetables
Uncurled
Their tendrills and leaf-crowns,
Throbbing bulbs,
In the sub-soil
The carrot
With its red mustaches
Was sleeping,
The grapevine
Hung out to dry its branches
Through which the wine will rise,
The cabbage
Dedicated itself
To trying on skirts,
The oregano
To perfuming the world,
And the sweet
Artichoke
There in the garden,
Dressed like a warrior,
Burnished
Like a proud
Pomegrante.
And one day
Side by side
In big wicker baskets
Walking through the market
To realize their dream
The artichoke army
In formation.
Never was it so military
Like on parade.
The men
In their white shirts
Among the vegetables
Were
The Marshals
Of the artichokes
Lines in close order
Command voices,
And the bang
Of a falling box.

But
Then
Maria
Comes
With her basket
She chooses
An artichoke,
She's not afraid of it.
She examines it, she observes it
Up against the light like it was an egg,
She buys it,
She mixes it up
In her handbag
With a pair of shoes
With a cabbage head and a
Bottle
Of vinegar
Until
She enters the kitchen
And submerges it in a pot.

Thus ends
In peace
This career
Of the armed vegetable
Which is called an artichoke,
Then
Scale by scale,
We strip off
The delicacy
And eat
The peaceful mush
Of its green heart.



Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:51 PM
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I'm not very good at poetry, but that's really about sex, right?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 9:55 PM
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I mean, "standing at attention" until a woman comes and puts you in a basket and then mushes your heart. Nobody is that interested in the emotional state of any vegetable.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:04 PM
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You'd think some kind of poetry interpreting person would still be reading even at this hour.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:11 PM
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105

I don't think that's what it's aboot.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:13 PM
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106

104: I did my undergrad thesis on 20c South American poetry.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:16 PM
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107

Is it erotic? Sure. But it's also about artichokes.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:31 PM
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108

"But"?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:34 PM
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I'm just saying, it's not emblematic for, like, doing it. As in, you go, "Oh, it's not a duck. It's about doing it."


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:36 PM
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My students do this with Emily Dickinson a lot. "These three are about doing it. The others probably are too." Poets should skip all that effort and just write, "Doing it, huh? Pretty great, right? Also, artichokes are yum."


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:38 PM
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111

There are more and less interesting ways to convey that doing it is pretty great.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:48 PM
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112

I wouldn't know.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 10:59 PM
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113

Don't let's be surly.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 11:19 PM
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You know what would be good? Chocolate-covered artichokes. Artichocolates. Artisanal artichocolates. On pizza. While riding a bike up a hill. With Smirnoff ice in your water bottle. In Wisconsin. You could make a online business dedicated to this.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-24-10 11:38 PM
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We broke fake accent. Who has the receipt, so that we can take it back to the store and get a replacement?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:17 AM
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Artichokes, like aubergines (eggplant, I think y'all call them) have NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THEIR EXISTENCE. They're like little blobs of the stuff that you find in your sink trap.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:47 AM
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Don't be silly. Artichokes are an excuse to ingest lots of lemon butter dipping sauce.

(Actually, I quite like artichokes.)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:10 AM
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23: it means its bromulence has been embiggened, I believe.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:27 AM
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119

Does any cuisine have a cheese-drink? Is there any other major food group that's never in drinkable form?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:53 AM
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You know what's an underrated pizza topping? Pop rocks. You sprinkle 'em on before cooking they melt in the cheese and then when you take a bit, pop! Pop! It's like little explosions of hot cheese in your mouth.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:55 AM
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Plus, soda-flavored cheese! Win-win.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:03 AM
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Which is what I imagine a cheese-drink would be. In my fantasies.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:04 AM
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Right! Little hot, sugary grease balls exploding all over the inside of your mouth. Mmm!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:04 AM
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124

Are we both speaking hypothetically, or just me?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:06 AM
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125

From Japan: We want consumers to be more familiar with cheese, so we've made a liquid version that makes it more accessible. It's also good as a salad dressing.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:24 AM
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There's no reason you shouldn't make a cheese-flavoured milkshake. Using a fairly soft cheese so it gets well broken up and absorbed into the milk. Maybe a chevre, or a bleu d'Auvergne. Might be rather refreshing. Add salt and pepper to taste.
OK, I'm going to try it. Will report back.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:37 AM
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i have never, to my knowledge, eaten unmelted cheese.

"Is there any other major food group that's never in drinkable form?"

meat ?


Posted by: cleek | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:40 AM
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Mascarpone's a cheese, right? Therefore, all Tiramisu-flavored drinks qualify. They sell tiramisu-flavored milkshakes at McDonald's here.


Posted by: mealworm | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:44 AM
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One could drink the nacho cheese served with, you know, nachos. It would be decadent, perhaps, but drinkable.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:46 AM
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126 and 127 are both equally surprising.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:50 AM
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i have never, to my knowledge, eaten unmelted cheese.

That's just weird. And tragic. Cheese is one of the great inventions of humanity. Look at poor old Ben Gunn. "Marooned three years agone, and lived on goats since then, and berries, and oysters. Wherever a man is, says I, a man can do for himself. But, mate, my heart is sore for Christian diet. You mightn't happen to have a piece of cheese about you, now? No? Well, many's the long night I've dreamed of cheese--toasted, mostly--and woke up again, and here I were."

"Is there any other major food group that's never in drinkable form?"
meat ?

Chicken soup, or meat stock-type drinks like Bovril and beef tea, count as drinkable meat, I think.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:57 AM
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Therefore, all Tiramisu-flavored drinks qualify.

Except that there are lots of things people call 'tiramisu' that don't have any mascarpone at all. It seems that anything combining sweet custard with cake layers with cocoa and maybe some coffee flavor gets called tiramisu. (Not that I'm agreeing with this.)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:03 AM
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Is kefir cheese or yogurt?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:05 AM
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Yoghurt, I would say, given that it's fermented.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:12 AM
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127, 131.last:

I'm still troubled by the last discussion.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:12 AM
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If port and stilton is a delicacy, then stilton dissolved in port will be too! Why oh why are there so few cheese-based liqueurs?


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:20 AM
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tierce, I think we're worrying the Americans. They're still a bit thrown by Mrs Beeton's Nourishing Egg Lemonade. (And her barley gruel. Barley boiled in port. Mmmm.)


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:23 AM
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It just occurred to me that there must be a cheesecake milkshake out there. Does cream cheese count?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:24 AM
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Barley boiled in port? Sounds nice.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:24 AM
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Does cream cheese count?

Perhaps, yes.

I suspect that the world needs a Yoo-Hoo styled cheese drink. Qoo-Soo, it should probably be called. Or Foon-doo.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:27 AM
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Hand in hand with beef tea, pork tea

(Lamb tea seems not to have been invented yet...)


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:29 AM
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"This practice is also known as 'cheesing' because it's fon to do."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:30 AM
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Sooprise your Broos tooday!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:31 AM
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A full pound of lovely Lancashire cheese will be arriving on my doorstep today. It is absurd that I paid to have it shipped to me, but it is so good and so not available locally that I indulged.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:32 AM
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How many holes are there in Lancashire cheese?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:35 AM
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None!

I report on my absurd cheese buying basically to alert you all never to take me seriously, because my habits are not those of the sane.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:37 AM
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The cheese must be used to fill the holes in Lancashire, I suppose.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:41 AM
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(Lamb tea seems not to have been invented yet...)

Will you accept the Mutton Broth that comes right after Nourishing Lemonade in Mrs. Beeton? It calls for "the scrag end of the neck of mutton". Plus it says right in the recipe that it will be "very tasteless and insipid". What's not to like?


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:48 AM
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Back to pizza, here's the basic recipe from James McNair's _Vegetarian Pizza_:

dissolve 1 Tbsp sugar and 1 envelope (1 tsp) yeast in 1 cup warm water (warm, not hot to the finger; about 110 deg F)

while that's getting foamy (all that does is prove your yeast is alive),

mix 3 cups of flour with 1 tsp salt

make a well in the middle

pour in 1/4 cup oil and the yeast

mix it vigorously with a strong spoon (or your hands, will be messy)

knead until smooth, springy, elastic, shiny, adding up to 1/4 cup more flour as you go. Could be 15min of hand kneading. More like 5min if you have a stand mixer.

Tuck the edges of the dough under so it's ball-like, get it a bit oily all over, put in a big bowl, cover bowl with a damp towel, keep warmish (to 89deg F) and draft-free for 45min to 1.5 hours (Depending on yeast. Is risen when, if you poke it gently with a wet finger, it sighs and sags instead of bouncing back.)

Squeeze it flat, make it a smooth ball again, let it relax for about 10 minutes; then roll it out into a pizza crust shape (one 16", or two 12", etc).

TO make it very thin, roll it out and then stretch it from the middle to the edge.

Heat oven to 500; if dough is thick, prebake until it's set but nowhere browned before you top it; bake after topping until done.

I think you should try anything on pizza that you like. A thin pizza with scant sauce and cheese is absolutely great if folded around cold fresh salad, or even braising greens, and shoveled right in. If you prebake the dough, or the basic cheese pizza, you can put pretty much any veggies on and take it out when they've heated through but before they're weeping. You can saute or broil veg while the dough is baking -- McNair pan-fries slices of eggplant, for pizza Parmesan, which seems a bit much to me but I'll bet it's tasty.

Your results will be more reliable with a pizza stone, because it holds a lot of heat and will keep your crust crusty, but you can also put one rack near the bottom of the oven, and start the pizza there to do the crust, and one near the top, and switch the pizza there to broil and finish. Some ovens can handle two pizzas at once doing this.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:11 AM
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Probably, will should start small. will: get some english muffins and Prego and pre-shredded cheese. Combine in the toaster oven. You can use some oregano, too, but not too much.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:54 AM
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pbbbbbth. Whatever you do, or dream to do, begin it! Boldness hath power, beauty, and pizza in it!


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:51 PM
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150. Actually, my kids like to bake "homemade" pizza using the Trader Joe's dough and sauce. I've had worse from pizzerias.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:59 PM
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Oh, man, will! I heard about this great new product. It comes from Italy, I think. At least, the guy on the commercial seems to be Italian. Anyway, it's called Boboli. Check it out, dude!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:04 PM
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(My kids are actually very fond of the English muffin pizzas. I know it's lame, but what do you do?)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:15 PM
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Eating English muffin pizzas because you like them is sensible; eating English muffin pizzas because someone scared you off making a pizza you would prefer is sorrowful.

Other: W T French Breakfast radishes? Really for breakfast? With the cafe au lait and a bit of bread? Huh.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:21 PM
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Yeah, why not? Radishes sliced thin on bread with butter. Or lox!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:40 PM
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156: Don't forget the salt!

I actually think a version of pizza bianco(a?) with thinly sliced radishes and crunchy salt flakes would be really, really good.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:52 PM
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I'm convinced that radishes on a pizza would be fine, especially if thinly sliced. I apologize to the radish for doubting it. (Really. My doubt last night was voiced mostly with an eye toward whomever else might be dining upon said pizza. People can be close-minded with respect to pizza toppings, I think we can all agree. Heck, I don't offer just anyone my raw kale salad, either, because, you know.)

In penance, I'ma put thinly sliced radishes on my next pizza, assuming I have any radishes.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 5:30 PM
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154: My kids are actually very fond of the English muffin pizzas.

Pita pizzas are cool. Pizza on a large round of pita bread. It's thin-crust, obviously; cooks fast, very easy, don't have to worry much about possible soggy crust.

A good topping/sauce for this is a sort of unconstructed pesto: brush or otherwise smear around with the back of a spoon a teaspoon or more of olive oil on the pita (depending on size of pita), sprinkle on there some finely chopped pine nuts or walnuts, chopped fresh basil, and grated parmesan. Then add veggies of whatever sort, cut fairly small since this is a thin crust, top with cheese, bake for not very long -- 10 minutes maybe.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 5:40 PM
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I used to love English muffin pizza. I probably would still like it, if I made it.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:45 PM
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160: Writing out that comment made me totally crave one.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:51 PM
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160: Writing out that comment made me totally crave one.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:51 PM
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Like, I really craved it a lot, you see.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:51 PM
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Stanley? Did you write out that comment? 160? I don't get it.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:56 PM
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164: Writing out the original comment that mentions English muffins.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:58 PM
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Oooooh. Okay.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:00 PM
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165: What, your writing that comment out of the screenplay? It's the key to the whole ending.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:03 PM
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A your/you're error that almost "works".


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:04 PM
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I thought I'd mention in passing that radishes are incredibly easy to grow from seed, provided you have some sunlight.

You must procure a packet of radish seeds, of course, and must have a bed of soil, which can just be a pot of soil. You just sprinkle the seeds, which are quite tiny, onto the soil -- no need to dig a little hole for them, particularly, though it's wise to have the soil tossed about loosely, as it were -- and basically in a month or so you will have radishes.

I've only ever done this with the red spherical radishes (red globe), not with daikon radishes or any other longer-rooted types. It's kind of amazing, in any case, how simple they are. It's worth trying.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:26 PM
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You can also grow olives from seed. Two things to keep in mind. First, it takes more than a month. Second, the red thing in the olive isn't a seed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:33 PM
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170: Pish.

By the way, I do not approve of the way Wikipedia has made its search box tiny and stuck way over in the corner like that. I had heard about this strange maneuver, but geez. CHANGE BAD.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:47 PM
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No, really. Somebody said it wasn't a seed, but a palomino.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:58 PM
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Second, the red thing in the olive isn't a seed.

What's the matter, Moby? Don't you support our drupes?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:05 PM
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*applause*


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:05 PM
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lately i've been making, in lieu of making english muffins, a sourdough oatbran flatbread (sort of cracker like). and schmear of pesto (sans cheese) on it.

i was thinking of making microgreens arugula tomorow. which would call for pizza.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:44 AM
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169.2: Thanks for the idea. I just planted radishes this evening, a variety with the name "French Breakfast." The little one wants to grow pumpkins, which we also planted, but radishes have a chance of sprouting while he still remembers planting them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:48 PM
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