Re: Department Of Corrections

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... And I'm eating the same as I was before I started biking ...

You sure about this? Seems like it would be easy to be eating a little more of the same stuff.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:11 AM
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Yeah, but it also works for very early thirties males! Of course "reasonable" also varies.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:13 AM
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Do you feel that your body composition has stayed the same?


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:28 AM
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You sure about this? Seems like it would be easy to be eating a little more of the same stuff.

Yeah, after a long bike ride or any good workout, I'm usually starving. It takes real will power not to eat a bit more at the margin.


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:30 AM
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There seems to be a fair bit of leeway for different individuals, and lag. I've been on a diet recently, and I _know_ I'm eating 500 to 1000 kcals a day less than I was before,* and I've also upped my exercise levels. My weight hasn't changed at all in a few weeks.

And yet there have been previous periods when I've been going through the same process: eating about the same kcal as I am now, and exercising about the same, when I lost about 8lbs in the first 3 weeks.**

It's odd.

* I know this because I'm anally recording everything I eat and working the numbers out.

** it's a pretty fair comparison as the before-and-afters were about the same. I was about the same weight when I started each time, and the kcal differential is also roughly the same.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:32 AM
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You may not be riding fast enough to count as cardio. I know when I ride I just sort of poke along and don't use much more energy that I do walking.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:33 AM
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Bah, too much whitespace.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:34 AM
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Wouldn't it be better to orally record what you eat?


Posted by: Frostbite | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:34 AM
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8: Oral traditions are more reliable than people think, but they still aren't as reliable as written culture. I recommend manually recording what you eat.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:36 AM
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6: LB is riding 10-20 miles instead of taking the subway. It doesn't matter if her HR is in the "cardio zone", she's still burning more calories.


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:44 AM
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7: Reverse racist.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:46 AM
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6, 10: And also, aren't you supposed to work out below the "cardio zone" to burn fat?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:51 AM
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Depending on speed, you burn 250-400 calories per hour of cycling. The recommended intake for women is about 2000 per day. So LB is taking in 14,000 calories per week, and she is now burning, say, 1,500 more calories a week than she used to, thanks to cycling.

I would say it's perfectly possible for LB to be eating 10% more calories than she used to eat, without noticing. If someone increased the size of every portion of food I ate by 10%, I don't think I'd notice.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:52 AM
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All that stuff about heart rate and getting a heart rate monitor that ogged talks about in that post makes my eyes glaze over. Does it feel like I'm working hard? Am I sweating? Am I making some sort of overall progress?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:55 AM
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re: 12

There's a lot written about that, and a lot of trainers seem to think it's crap.

Anyway, energy expenditure is energy expenditure.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:58 AM
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I'm pretty sure my metabolism shifted after Hawaiian Punch, and it wasn't that I was eating 10% more or exercising 10% left.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:59 AM
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And also, aren't you supposed to work out below the "cardio zone" to burn fat?

I always assumed this meant "Women and people who want to lose fat probably can't hack it at Real Athlete levels, so let's try to get them to sustain exercise for a while in the wimpy zone."


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:01 AM
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Also, I'm pretty sure that weight loss is a fight in the kitchen, not the gym. You exercise to be healthier but not necessarily thinner.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:08 AM
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You do need to exercise a surprising amount to burn of excess calories if you're snacking or eating large meals.

I do fairly intense training a couple of hours a week: much higher levels of energy expenditure than cycling, although more episodic; and yet despite the kcal/hour expenditure estimate being really high those 2 - 3 hours of training only add up to the kcal content of a single curry, or a decent sized pizza.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:11 AM
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There's a lot written about that, and a lot of trainers seem to think it's crap.

I always wondered about that. Yet all the machines at the gym have the little charts with "fat burning" and "cardio" zones labeled.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:13 AM
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The connection between exercise and weight loss isn't about the meager number of calories you burn while actually working out, it's the more significant number of additional calories you burn all day and all night by ramping up your metabolism. If you're sedentary, your body basically acts like it's hibernating, and your metabolism slows to a crawl.

(That's a generic "you", by the way. For any particular "you", the post is absolutely right that YMMV.)


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:16 AM
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I still find the treadmill debate confusing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:18 AM
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20: I always thought this meant that the higher rates would be more useful for endurance training, etc., and also necessarily burn more fat, even though one could burn fat at the lower heart rates (but not endurance train as efficiently). That's just something I made up in my head (and I've always been a believer in the 1st Law of Thermodynamics school of exercise, which LB disputes here, so I am unreliable!).


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:19 AM
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I might need to retract 4. I'm skimming the old thread and realizing that, since I'm a swimmer, I'm bound to get the munchies.


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:19 AM
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It's easy for me to speak authoritatively on the topic of weight loss, since I can eat cheesecake and waffles all day every day and yet barely break 80 pounds if I'm wearing heavy clothes.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:20 AM
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Resistance, not cardio.

I don't know if Megan would agree, but this is my opinion and experience. Walking, running, biking are not enough to make the muscles eat the fat. I know it's Atkinsey, but cardio, although good for you in many ways, will just eat carbs and muscles, and make you crave carbs. Runners carbload.

When I am on Atkins, I didn't feel hungry after strenuous exercise. The hunger is also a sign of carb addiction.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:22 AM
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I don't really mind that I've kept the baby weight in and of itself, but I really miss my great clothes.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:25 AM
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15: A lot of trainers think any exercise that isn't aimed at building their particular idea of the One True Desirable Physique is crap, so I'm skeptical of the skepticism. The evidence that modest exercise has large benefits is overwhelming, so the fact that heavy exercise burns more calories than light exercise really isn't relevant at all. For a lot of people it's light exercise or none at all, so deprecating anything but intense workouts is a great way to encourage people to sit on the couch and munch junk.

In my experience trainers tend to be people who simply cannot relate to a dislike of exercise, and so tend to have a hard time relating to people with modest goals that balance the need for exercise with a hatred of it.

20: I think that's partly marketing: "Fat Burning" levels of exercise sound good, but I bet you burn more in the "Cardio" zone. Still, there needs to be a label that distinguishes the bottom of the cardio zone from the top of the "might as well be sitting on the couch" zone.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:27 AM
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28 is wrong, just to say it.

There is nothing that wrong with carrying a lot of fat. You can be in very good cardio shape with a high BMI,

But it takes an insane amount of cardio to burn the fat that 15 minutes of resistance will do.

I currently brisk walk ten miles a day (3-5 an hour), have legs like oak limbs, and 6 inches of belly.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:34 AM
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It's weird how different running and walking are. I'm fine going out and playing a soccer game without subs. But lately I've been trying to walk Hawaiian Punch to daycare - about 2.5 miles round-trip - and it leaves me weirdly pooped for the rest of the day.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:37 AM
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This sounds plausible:

The body burns a greater percentage of fat at lower intensities than at higher intensities. At lower intensities the body may burn 50 percent of the calories from fat, while at higher intensities it may only burn 35 percent. But at higher intensities you burn way more total calories--and more fat calories overall--than you do at lower intensities

Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:37 AM
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re: 28

That wasn't the context in which I read the skepticism. The skeptics were all for people doing moderate exercise; walking, etc. They were just skeptical that there was some exercise intensity that was uniquely suited to melting off body fat. And last time I read a bit more about it, there was peer-reviewed research backing the fat-burning claim up, but the effect was fairly small and assumed your purpose was to specifically lose body-fat rather than, say, improve one's CV fitness, or ability to do more intense activities.

As it happens I do really quite intense cardio work, but in very short bursts -- HIIT type work, tabata intervals etc -- which is quite useful for what I do as a sport, but doesn't go on for long enough to burn off a huge amount of calories.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:40 AM
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The evidence that modest exercise has large benefits is overwhelming, so the fact that heavy exercise burns more calories than light exercise really isn't relevant at all. For a lot of people it's light exercise or none at all, so deprecating anything but intense workouts is a great way to encourage people to sit on the couch and munch junk.

Plus an intense workout is likely to make you ravenous after, whereas walking everywhere or standing up at your desk or fidgeting is not.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:40 AM
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over the past three years, i have started riding quite a bit, 10 miles or more in the evenings a couple of times a week, 20 miles on weekends when i can, with routes that include some meaningful elevation change. i dropped 5 pounds or so at first, then stabilized. i have dropped 15 or so since, all correlated with reducing/eliminating soda and beer from my diet. if i cut beer out, i drop weight, add it back in and the weight stabilizes.
i'm quite happy to have gotten from 195-200 down to 178, and hope to get to 170. in particular, the weight loss and exercise remove me from the high-risk category for middle aged diabetes, which was one of the reasons for getting the bike out of the basement.


Posted by: rwelty | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:44 AM
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Plus an intense workout is likely to make you ravenous after...

I think the theory is supposed to be that, if an intense workout succeeds in raising your core temp, that actually suppresses your appetite for an extended period of time (you feel kind of nauseous instead of ravenous).


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:44 AM
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I think the theory is supposed to be that, if an intense workout succeeds in raising your core temp, that actually suppresses your appetite for an extended period of time (you feel kind of nauseous instead of ravenous).

Oh, huh, I can see that. My main experiences with genuinely intense exercise have been swim team, which of course has a built-in cooling mechanism, and ballet, which is often all about short bursts of activity that aren't really very good for burning calories.

I do feel like I read something about the standing-desk guy (great intellectual rigor, here, me) saying that he'd done studies showing it had an especially good return on excess calories burned vs. increased appetite overall.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:50 AM
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32: OK, that makes sense.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:51 AM
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30 is quite startling - you can manage 90 minutes of soccer, but not 45 minutes of walking?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:52 AM
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So here's my recent experience: Left my horrible old job a year and a half ago, during which time I was regularly eating/drinking somewhere in the range of 3500 kcal per day, on average. Started walking about 4 miles a day round trip (in two 2 mile chunks) to and from my new job, plus once or twice a week doing another couple of miles of walking. Didn't consciously seek to cut my calorie intake very much, except by switching most of my pop consumption to weak Gatorade. Lost about 25 pounds in the first 6 or 8 months, gained back about 5 pounds in the last 4 months. I'm guessing my average calorie intake has been a lot closer to 2500 per day on average during that time, and I'm getting much less from alcohol.

A friend, who is about 25% fatter than me, has started Weight Watchers, and has lost about 25 pounds in 8 weeks. He's also doing some moderate-to-heavy exercise, but I'm not sure exactly how much.

I'm thinking if I could get my calorie intake down around 2200, so hardly starvation level, and walk an average of another 6 miles per week, or so, I could get back on that 2-3 pounds per month weight loss schedule that I was maintaining for awhile.

Hot day for fat folx.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:22 AM
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Hmm. . . like Yawnoc my only experience is as a swimmer. And, really, it doesn't help me lose weight, it just shifts my fat/muscle ratio. So, it is all about the food.
And unfortunately I have a minor Ben and Jerry's addiction. So the baby belly is apparently never going away.


Posted by: Elizamuqin | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:32 AM
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30 is quite startling - you can manage 90 minutes of soccer, but not 45 minutes of walking?

I know, it's bizarre. It actually takes me more like 75 minutes to do the round trip, partly because I'm pushing a stroller and carrying a daily supply of lunch/snacks/milk/diapers/blanket, and partly because actually dropping her off isn't super quick - you have to take off your shoes, wash her hands, put her crap away, etc.

But basically, after a 90 minute game of soccer I could play another half before being completely out of energy, but you could not get me off my butt to walk back to daycare.

I'm kind of exaggerating, because I enjoy the soccer so that would get me back in the game. But also it's like a weird walking-out-of-shapeness but running-in-shapeness.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:52 AM
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Maybe you should get a baby jogger, and run to daycare.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:54 AM
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41: but wait, so you're walking carrying a (relatively) heavy load and worrying about a baby? That may (may!) have something to do with the differential tiredness.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:56 AM
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The worrying is very light.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:58 AM
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Why are we talking about weight when the real problem is that the tanning season is about to start and it is still freakishly cold? This year has just been tragic. I have no base at all and I have two weddings to go to next weekend. How can a girl wear dresses when she is not tan?

The pool opens in a week, but it isn't heated. That's fine when it is 100 degrees out, but going to be completely miserable if it stays in the seventies. One does what one must, and everything worthwhile requires dedication, but getting tan this year is going to start off rough.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:59 AM
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Also, her daily supplies are easily

Pushing her is a minor exertion, probably, but I leave the stroller at daycare. It's a foldy umbrella stroller.

I could actually jog her in, per 42. I haven't gotten around to that kind of planning though.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:00 AM
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Maybe you should get a baby jogger

They have to learn to walk before they can run, Brock.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:01 AM
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Also, her daily supplies are easily

invisible less than sign 10 lbs.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:01 AM
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How can a girl wear dresses when she is not tan?

What? Pale is fine. Tan worship is foolish.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:02 AM
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How can a girl wear dresses when she is not tan?

No sympathy, dear. None at all.


Posted by: gingerpostropher | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:03 AM
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49: depends a lot on skin type. Pale worship is rather overcautious, depending.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:03 AM
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Nevertheless, there's nothing wrong with not being tan.

It does suck that it's still raining, though.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:04 AM
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I didn't say pale worship. That would be equally and oppositely silly. But embrace your natural color! We're a rainbow blah blah blah.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:05 AM
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Out the door, to a field trip, so you'll just have to imagine me arguing strenuously for tans all day, and managing to insult about a dozen of you in the process.

Wish I could be there for it!


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:08 AM
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I'll argue both parts:

Megan: I've got flimsy arguments!
Heebie: I've got POWERFUL arguments!
The mineshaft: Wow, Heebie really knocked that one out of the park. It's settled - worshipping tanning is silly.

Done & done!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:10 AM
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Looks about right.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:13 AM
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Tan worship is foolish.

...says the swarthy blogger.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:18 AM
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Good job, Heebie! I'm ordering a flouncy hat right now!


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:18 AM
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45: Bottle tan. Orange is the new brown.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:20 AM
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...says the swarthy blogger.

Oh, this old tan? I just throw it on when I want to look youthful and healthy. Why?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:21 AM
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55 gets it exactly right.


Posted by: Mr. Blinding | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:35 AM
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ALL HANDSOME BLOGGERS ARE SLIGHTLY SUNBURNED


Posted by: OPINIONATED PAUL ROBESON | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:39 AM
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My weight is still rock steady.

The question, I think, how much fat you have. CJB seems to have alluded to it way above @3. Muscle is denser than fat, so swapping (by volume) fat for muscle will make you heavier. So you may be skinnier but more muscle-y. You'd really need to exercise a bunch and eat a lot less such that you burn fat and then muscle to get down to 140.

m, that would be my guess

p.s. you could take up smoking! that used to work for me!


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 9:59 AM
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That's fine when it is 100 degrees out, but going to be completely miserable if it stays in the seventies.

C'mon down to Tejas! We may have 100 heat indices by the end of May.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:04 AM
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Representing the medical-industrial complex I am going to have to disagree with "Hunger is a sign of carb addiction".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:12 AM
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Oh yeah? Breathing is a sign of oxygen addiction.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:14 AM
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Just back from court. To inquiries -- yes, I've certainly put on muscle. I'm not saying all the biking hasn't had an effect. And of course it's possible that I'm eating more, but I don't think I'm eating much more -- my workplace isn't conducive to snacking, so I'd have to be doing it with larger servings at meals. Still very possible, of course.

But whether or not that's happening, my point was that one sees a great deal of very reasonable sounding "make this reasonable lifestyle change, no need to make yourself crazy worrying in detail about what you eat" advice like Ogged's post, and it is, in fact, not all that useful.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:19 AM
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And the pale and freckled blogger about to head off to the dermo for a discussion of her recent skin cancer diagnosis says tan worship is foolish. Looks good on a lot of people, unfortunately, but still not a good idea.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:27 AM
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Sure is a beautiful sunny day today. I should put on sunscreen if I go out.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:37 AM
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So in response to a post that says exercise more and you'll get stronger, eat a little less while you do it, and you'll get leaner, you say, I'm exercising more and getting stronger, I might be eating more and not getting leaner, and this is why that advice is useless.


Posted by: ogged heard someone was wrong about him on the internet | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:47 AM
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I might be eating more and not getting leaner

Actually she is getting leaner. She just isn't losing weight.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:50 AM
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Hey heebie, do you play indoor soccer?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:57 AM
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Yup. I play both.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:00 AM
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Are you comparing outdoor soccer to walking, or indoor soccer? I'm just wondering if heat and/or sun plays a role here.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:12 AM
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I was comparing outdoor. Indoor games are much shorter - 20 minute halves - and much sprintier. If you want, I can compare indoor and walking though.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:17 AM
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Not on my account.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:20 AM
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Any other takers?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:23 AM
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Don't put yourself out just for us, dear.


Posted by: Unopinionated Grandma | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:24 AM
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I'll keep my ear to the thread just in case.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:43 AM
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I'm just wondering if ... sun plays a role here.

The sun plays a role in all facets of life on Earth, Tweety.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:51 AM
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I'll keep my ear to the thread
... and my eye to the grindstone.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:57 AM
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64: C'mon down to Tejas! We may have 100 heat indices by the end of May.

Yeah, 94 degrees here yesterday. I would point out that when we have freakishly hot weather here, nobody shuts down the city. Quite the contrary, a lot of people were wearing long pants and long-sleeved shirts. But let one of those southern climes experience what would be a very, very mild winter day by our standards, and suddenly it's "Call out the National Guard! 25-car-pile-ups!"


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:58 AM
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The sun plays a role in all facets of life on Earth, Tweety.

Not here yet this year, but we're cautiously optimistic.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:03 PM
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70: I'm really pretty sure I'm not eating more. I'm not, e.g., weighing all the servings of food I eat, nor was I beforehand, so I wouldn't have had a basis for comparison. I didn't want to rely on it in the post, but if I were going to guess, I'd guess that I'm eating somewhat less: I did vaguely think "Hey, wouldn't it be nice if what with all this biking I started dropping some of that weight without having to make myself crazy over it", and have therefore been passing on the beer and ice cream a bit more than I would have otherwise.

Original post: still wrong.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:04 PM
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Well, the sun isn't so slippery to drive in, see?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:05 PM
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83: You stole all our sun last year. We haven't forgotten.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:05 PM
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"Hey, wouldn't it be nice if what with all this biking I started dropping some of that weight without having to make myself crazy over it"

But do you care about losing weight or about losing fat? It seems like you probably are losing some fat. the weight is just getting replaced by muscle.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:07 PM
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OT whining: And now I have to go to the special skin cancer guy, because the regular dermo doesn't want to remove my thing, because it's too close to some nerve. This is all so annoying.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:08 PM
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88: A good thing! An abundance of caution! Still easily dealt with, just by someone who is even better at it!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:10 PM
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I'm not getting how the original post is wrong, LB. You're stronger but not lighter, right? But you don't actually know if you're taking in fewer calories, right? So again, how is the original post wrong?


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:15 PM
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This no beer or ice cream idea is a real problem.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:16 PM
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Also, I'm sorry you have cancer. But really, as oudemia says, going to a specialist is a good rather than a bad thing. Any time someone is going to be cutting something out of your body, you really want the person who's had the most practice to do the job.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:17 PM
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Are we going to send LB to the French Laundry?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:19 PM
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Not until she admits that the original post was right and that she's lucky to be seeing a specialist, we aren't.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:21 PM
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Skin cancer only gets you a gift certificate to Joe's Crepe Shack.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:21 PM
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96

This no beer or ice cream idea is a real problem.

She said she's passing on beer and ice cream. Beer or ice cream might still be ok.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:23 PM
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87: Mostly, I like being stronger and fitter and enjoying my commute. So, yay, biking! I'm not particularly interested on the number on the scale. Boo, meaningless measurements. But I do, idly, miss my old dress-size and youthful slenderness. And the biking is having no significant effect on that -- weight seems to be a fairly good proxy for dress-size, at least for me.

90: If you read the original post, it says that you should eat somewhat less, but that the main thing is that with some very non-intense or focused dieting, half an hour a day of cardio should result in weight loss. This, not so accurate.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:25 PM
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97: Ah, now I see why you think the post is wrong: you've totally misread it. Fair enough.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:28 PM
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I got sick of the gym and started walking instead, now walking something between 12 and 17 miles/week with an old friend depending on how often the weather and our schedules cooperate. There are a lot of things to like about the increased activity but mostly I just enjoy getting to look at people's flowers and smell things. Last night we were out walking and all of a sudden smelled very sweet strawberries from somewhere nearby. We figured someone was making preserves or baking a pie or something; it was a fantastic aroma and completely at random. Being a little more present in my immediate surroundings is an unexpected and welcome side benefit.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:31 PM
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If you read the original post, it says that you should eat somewhat less, but that the main thing is that with some very non-intense or focused dieting, half an hour a day of cardio should result in weight loss.

Kidding aside, where you've got a "but" he has an "and". Which is to say, his point was: if you eat slightly fewer calories while significantly increasing your load-bearing aerobic exercise, and you'll get stronger, leaner, and lose some weight.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:32 PM
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And now I have a stray "and". Whatever: he's right.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:33 PM
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ogged was wrong:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/phys-ed-why-doesnt-exercise-lead-to-weight-loss/

Although, if you are putting on muscle you may not lose weight but you still can look better. This happens more with men who put on a lot of muscle mass due to lifting weights.

Those atkins/paleo diets work well. I lost a bunch of weight. I do a modified one where I just don't eat grains, rice, potatoes or sugar. You really have to like meat, cheese and fat though. I like it because I just eat when I am hungry. I don't have a lot of excess energy though. It might affect your ability to do the bike rides without supplementing with carbs but there are modified diets for that sort of thing.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:34 PM
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Seeing the specialist is great. In the technical parlance, they can "hone in on" spots better than run-of-the-mill skin doctors. And LB, I chugged up a steep hill near my house this past weekend on my ancient 10-speed, in homage to your hill-busting bike commuting.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:37 PM
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102.1: My point exactly.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:37 PM
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The most effective weight-loss cases that I know of from personal or blood-relative experience are unemployment and having had a third heart attack.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:47 PM
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The only way I've ever been able to lose significant weight is through a combo of atkins-esque diet and regular, fairly intense running.

Neither one on their own have ever proven sufficient. I think this mostly is because, for me at least, exercise serves as an appetite suppressant. It's just too hard to diet without exercising, and exercising encourages dieting (partly because you start getting more conscious of your body).

I think that also, for me at least, the appetite-suppressant aspect varies significantly with different kinds of "cardio." Everyone knows this is true of swimming, but I've never been able to lose weight just from bike riding, either.

Finally, it doesn't really produce weight loss per se, but I've recently started swinging weights over my head, and this turns out to be the best way I've ever found to start to feel good about your body quickly. Everything just starts magically fitting better and (I think and hope) I'm looking better, even though sizes aren't shrinking.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 12:59 PM
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||
It's time for apostropher to quit his job and join academia.
|>


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:00 PM
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Amputation is a good way to lose weight.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:04 PM
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108, also:

- weepy movies (the body is 60% water by weight)
- a good exfoliant
- bloodletting


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:10 PM
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So is 70 evidence that LB's trolling worked to bring ogged back to the blog, even if only briefly? Or did ogged have one of his minions write that?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:17 PM
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No, no. My nephew (who is like Ben's age, not a kid) just almost *died* because of his Crohn's disease. He was in so much pain, and trying to ignore it, that he managed not to eat for a couple months (or if he ate it immediately came out one end or the other) and lost about 40 lbs from an already whippet-thin frame. (The ER in Portland wouldn't believe he wasn't a junkie.)

So I recommend Crohn's for all your extreme weight-loss needs.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:17 PM
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I recommend being in your teens.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:19 PM
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Or did ogged have one of his minions write that?

I believe it was a scoundrel minion.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:21 PM
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A friend of mine managed to lose all her intestinal flora (not quite sure what exactly caused that to happen, though she was very deep in mourning), which resulted in everything going through her pretty much undigested. Another weight loss option! She lost close to 20 pounds.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:24 PM
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Divorce/break-up can sometimes work for weightloss.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:25 PM
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"Little Bo Dora
has lost all her flora
and doesn't know where to find them . . . ."


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:26 PM
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115 is true, but of course it's also evidence of how important mental stuff is to eating and appetite (within limits, obvs).


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:28 PM
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People with Crohn's are encouraged not to be too slender, actually.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:31 PM
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118: Because they have flare ups and lose 40 lbs.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:32 PM
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Further to 115, it generally only works if one is the dumpee, and there are two recognized paths:

1) Don't eat, don't eat, masturbate, smoke too much.

2) Revenge/Redemption via putting intense effort into developing a smoking hott bod.

(#2 is just a subset of the more general Revenge/Redemption-Via-Intense-Self-Improvement-Regime).


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:33 PM
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People with Crohn's often have to take steroids for at least a while, and it makes them very very round. Then they go off steroids and back to rail-thin. Having been roughly the same size for 16 years, I can't imagine how stressful that would be.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:33 PM
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Further OT griping: The dermo told me the skin cancer guy she was referring me to took my insurance. No he doesn't. Now going back to her for a new skin cancer guy who does take my insurance. Argh.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:35 PM
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122: It's Obama's fault.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:35 PM
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I lost a fair bit of weight in hospital, on a drip, after they'd infected me with a post-operative infection. But it went back on within about a month.

I can testify to 115, too.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:37 PM
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122: Best health care system in the world!


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:37 PM
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The dermo told me the skin cancer guy she was referring me to took my insurance. No he doesn't.

Perfect. Go to the skin cancer guy, and then sue the dermo for misrepresentation.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:45 PM
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And now the dermo says "No, the cancer guy does take your insurance, his office is just confused. Call him back." I'll just be quietly metastasizing over in the corner here.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:47 PM
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The link in 102.1 is interesting. Anecdotally, I found the result about exercise being helpful for keeping weight (lost through diet changes) off (but less helpful for losing weight per se) to be very true.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:49 PM
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And now the cancer guy is closed for the day. Feh.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:52 PM
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I would have thought LB had one of those gold plated public sector health plans one hears so much about.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:55 PM
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127: If I were there, I would bring my exacto knife to the meet-up.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 1:59 PM
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130: We only have those in Massachusetts, TLL.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:00 PM
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I've always had 'good' health insurance, and it's always been like this. Endless wrangling about who takes what insurance at the front end of dealing with any new provider, and lots and lots of 'errors' to be straightened out along the way. I'm not sure that there is insurance that's gold-plated enough not to suck when you're dealing with it: the good stuff usually doesn't bankrupt you, but it still sucks.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:00 PM
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I could call Dr. Oops, but she's in Pittsburgh. And I'm not sure I want her carving holes in my neck. She might forget and flip a kidney out by accident.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:01 PM
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LB why don't you have Dr. Oops take care of it, or is she still sore about that thing you did when she was little.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:01 PM
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by accident

Mmm hmm. "Oh, huh, how'd that get out here. Well, listen, as long as it's out, I know a terrific home for it."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:02 PM
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or I could be pwned


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:02 PM
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I'm not sure that there is insurance that's gold-plated enough not to suck when you're dealing with it

Sure there is: Medicare.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:03 PM
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Maybe the greedy doctor will allow you to barter for services. Bring a chicken to your appointment, just in case.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:07 PM
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This is *cancer*, TLL. That's at least a goat.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:11 PM
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I could be all etymologically appropriate and bring a bucket of crabs?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:14 PM
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129: Slightly OT question for LB: Do people really say "feh"? I used to see this in Mad Magazine but I've never actually heard it.


Posted by: Inlandish | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:19 PM
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Apo said it was cancer, not pubic lice.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:19 PM
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I think LB knows what her own disease is better than apo does, TLL.


Posted by: CFryptci ned | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:21 PM
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142: I don't. But I do make a disgusted noise that I can't spell fairly often, and while 'feh' isn't particularly close to how I would spell it if I tried, it seems to convey the same feeling in print.

Chatting in text-based formats really drives home how much non-verbal grunting I do. There are a lot of sentences where the initial "Hmm" is an essential part of the sentence -- if I edit out the non-verbal noises, I'm not conveying the same meaning.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:22 PM
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Do people really say "feh"?

I do.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:24 PM
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142: People do say "feh"! They tend to be old and Jewish and so I've always assumed there was some Yiddish etymology of sorts.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:25 PM
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Posted by: Inlandish | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:26 PM
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148 s/b "gesticulates wildly"

Must've done some HTML thingy without meaning to


Posted by: Inlandish | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:27 PM
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Not having gone to Medical School in this country, I refuse to make a diagnosis over the internet. (My GP is a distinguished graduate of St. George's . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada)


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:27 PM
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I say "feh" but it, as Rah pointed out to me one time regarding "squick", is a word that I learned exclusively from the Internet.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:28 PM
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I say feh quite regularly. And I said it long before I knew there was an internet. But then again, it wouldn't be a stretch to call me old and Jewish.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:29 PM
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Buck has referred to me as an elderly Jewish man trapped in a goyish woman's body. You tell a few too many jokes over dinner...


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:31 PM
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Also, so Josh can't claim that nobody reads his comments, he's old and Jewish too! Data points! Two of 'em!


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:33 PM
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Does someone know of an example - like from TV or Film? Since I was a kind I've wanted to hear someone say it.


Posted by: Inlandish | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:33 PM
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I say "feh," too! But I remember the exact day I decided to affect it. I was maybe 12 and Mrs Karasic came over and shooed my dog away from her saying "Feh" and sort of waggling her hands.

The internet tells me it is in fact Yiddish.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:36 PM
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I must be haunted. Sorry, folks.


Posted by: Inlandish | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:38 PM
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It's either Yiddish via Polish or Polish via Yiddish.

If that link fails, it's p. 309 of that book.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:39 PM
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And we are Yids from Poland, so that explains that.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:42 PM
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Does someone know of an example - like from TV or Film? Since I was a kind I've wanted to hear someone say it.

I think Eddie Murphy says it in the barber shop in "Coming to America". Of course he is made up as an old Jew. Right after he tells the joke about the fly in the soup.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:49 PM
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I don't say 'feh', so I must be more youthful than ari and Josh.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:55 PM
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159: Or maybe you say it because you are an "Ari".

Browsing through my local record store recently I came upon some awful mishmash called something like "all the Jewish music you'll ever need," played by the London Symphony Orchestra or somesuch, consisting, mostly, of Fiddler on the Roof songs. Feh. Take a tip from Ari. You want an album that exemplifies klezmer music where it is today? You want an album that you can play for your grandparents or grandkids and everyone is gonna kvell (make happy noises). This is the one.

Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 2:58 PM
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We are legion.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:01 PM
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163: It's obviously a conspiracy.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:02 PM
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159: My wife's grandmother (born in Poland and lived there until she was ~20) said it constantly, my wife's mother fairly frequently, and my wife on rare occasions.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:03 PM
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165: Your wife's just being polite.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:05 PM
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Saying 'feh' will not help you lose weight.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:17 PM
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166: Maybe. The rare occasions when she uses it are those when I ask her how it was for her.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:21 PM
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167: But it will give you *such* a tan.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:21 PM
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169: Racist.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:23 PM
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165: I wondered what your mother was saying the other night (conceptually pwned by 168).


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:27 PM
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171: Mother-in-law. Get it right or I might get mad!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:36 PM
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172: she said that too.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:42 PM
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Huh, that wasn't me. In case that wasn't already clear. I guess TOS has found a new toy.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:56 PM
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That said, the picture of RBG is aces.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 3:57 PM
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It's from The Onion , Ari.


Posted by: Tiny Hermaphrodite, Esq. | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:02 PM
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"Plus an intense workout is likely to make you ravenous after, whereas walking everywhere or standing up at your desk or fidgeting is not."

I think this is opposite of the truth. plus only intense exercise will do much for changing partitioning.

also, those walk-desks burn something like 1k calories a work-day

Also, one of the big benefits of 'exercise' , especially things like playing with a team, is you get out of the house and are somewhere you aren't eating

I think boredom-hunger is a large problem.

i don't think being-thin-without-lucky-genes in american requires any large sacrifices, but it doesn't require many changes, and awareness of just how much of modern life is unhealthy. fixing only part of a multifaceted problem is mostly just discouraging.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:12 PM
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Changing partitioning?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:13 PM
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Speaking of exercise. I just loaded a wheelbarrow full of bricks and moved it from the backyard to the side yard. That was it for my exertion for the day. I was careful not to hurt by back, but I feel so flush and tingly that I'm just going to sit down for a long while.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:16 PM
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This seems like a description of what energy partitioning is all about. Seems like it means sending calories over to build muscle and give you immediate energy, instead of sitting around in fat on your belly. But who knows, it could all be bullshit.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:31 PM
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oh, yeah. its just a description, i'm not sure how it could logically be bullshit.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:34 PM
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Yoyo, I'm telling you. Logically, it could all be bullshit. ALL OF IT.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 4:51 PM
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Saying 'feh' will not help you lose weight.

Screaming it in American Sign Language might.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 5:00 PM
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"Protein calories are incorporated into muscle tissue"? "Muscles grow when protein is added to them."?

Um, no. Muscles need protein to grow. But growing muscles is not like watering a plant.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 5:20 PM
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But growing muscles is not like watering a plant.

But growing a beard is. If you don't like shaving, stop washing your face.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 5:24 PM
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||

Well that was a pretty sorry excuse for three Samoans.

|>


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 5:44 PM
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i didn't read the linked article. i just mean the idea of changing the proportion of muscle/fat lost/gained


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 5:59 PM
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I've often wondered how big beefy herbivores, like bulls and, uh, triceratops, develop their big beefiness without access to very many protein calories. Grass and stuff probably has some protein, but not much. Does it have to do with the several different stomachs?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:32 PM
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big beefy herbivores

Prince Fielder is an example, and I'm pretty sure he has only one stomach.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:36 PM
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I suppose it's a stupid question -- it must be that the cattle are able to create the proteins necessary for muscle growth without necessarily having eaten source protein. Obviously there are big differences between humans and bovine, but my guess is that many animals are capable of doing this, and that people are a little too protein-fixated these days.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:44 PM
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21: The connection between exercise and weight loss isn't about the meager number of calories you burn while actually working out, it's the more significant number of additional calories you burn all day and all night by ramping up your metabolism.

What Brock says.

Sorry, I read the thread backwards for a bit, then started reading it forward for a bit.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:47 PM
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vegetable matter isn't that low in protein, on a per calorie basis. its only 'low in protein' compared to energy dense foods. the grazer eats a tonne of low quality material just to get calories, so it ends up with enough protein.

The big stomachs are how you eat that massive amount of vegetable matter in the first place.

i think their might be some increase in protein quality in the fermentation process.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 6:57 PM
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I learned feh in my youth.

When I had a copy of the book, people. Jeez.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:05 PM
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I suspect that if LB adds some resistance training along with simply cutting back meal portions, she'll see weight loss along with the substitution of muscle for fat. Cutting back meal portions doesn't mean starving; it's just, oh, 2 slices of pita pizza instead of three.

It takes a while for the change to occur; men lose weight more readily than women, though I don't know why. (Yes, this is me speaking folk wisdom without scientific findings to back it up.)

Ogged is not only male, but I believe maintained a fairly high routine metabolic rate as a matter of course, and was on something like an Atkins diet (high protein, low carbs, and dairy) just normally, by preference and inclination. He doesn't generalize.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:24 PM
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on the veldt, a caveman being able to resist eating something meant you could bring it home to your cavewoman. in hte veldt-cave, not eating something just hurts your baby.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 7:59 PM
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188: Does it have to do with the several different stomachs?

And very long intestines, much longer than human intestines. Humans don't have the intestines or the extra stomachs to eat grass. (He says, having once watched a tv show on horse intestinal surgery.)

I learned feh at the knee of an old Hungarian Jewish lady (who would be about 80 now and who survived the war). Along with oy and other yiddish words that became second nature.

m, old but not jewish


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:17 PM
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much longer than human intestines

ONLY UNTIL THE SEQUEL!


Posted by: OPINIONATED HUMAN CENTIPEDE | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:20 PM
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Dear Idea of a Human Centipede: Please get out of my brain. Please get out of the casual conversations I have. Please let me forget your existence.

You enter my thoughts at least three times a week, sometimes spontaneously, sometimes from the words of another. This cannot go on. Your presence hurts me.

I sometimes imagine that the writer/director of the movie The Human Centipede was in a similar position. Once you, this poisonous idea, got into his head, he couldn't stop thinking about it. Maybe he thought that by making the movie, he would be spared, sorta the way in The Ring if you show the cursed video to someone else, and curse them, then you won't die. Maybe he didn't think he could rid himself of the evil thought, but he resented the rest of us so much for being free of it that he wanted to bring us down to his level.

In any case, Idea of a Human Centipede, please leave my brain.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:38 PM
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198.3: That also sounds like what the makers of Epic Movie must have thought.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 8:47 PM
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Kobe and I endorse 198.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:01 PM
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So far the IoaHC only really enters my mind when I take my pills first thing in the morning.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:03 PM
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Our flesh is mortal, and should rather be cherished than chastised for its shortcomings. Your body's final and inevitable comeuppance will come when they place your remains six feet under, but in the meantime, why not show a little bit of mercy? The body's demand for sustenance is innocent of original sin, and all of these elaborate calculations of carbs and proteins and etc. remind me of nothing so much as a dour Puritan's seventeenth-century commonplace book. Except that his double-entry bookkeeping of the soul has been replaced by a narrow obsession with the body, almost as though disciplining and punishing its appetites could lead to a form of salvation too.

Also, unless you're an athlete or a person with an unusually high metabolism, once you reach a certain age the only way to conform to the current ideal of slenderness is to starve your body into submission. Exercise will help keep your body healthier, but at a certain point and beyond a certain age (late 20s or early 30s, probably), the only way to achieve or maintain leanness or skinniness is to basically not eat.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 10:28 PM
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I'm not really interested in losing weight for the sake of weight loss, but I would like to be in better shape. If that leads to some weight loss, fine.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:00 PM
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||
Austin, begin masturbating to Bernie Ecclestone.
|>

When I first re-read the referenced post about load bearing cardio, I thought it meant carrying dumbbells or plates or somesuch while stair climbing. But apparently a body of too much weight is load enough.

I put my chips on high intensity cardio: heart rate at (greater than (70 percent of (85 percent of (220 minuls body in pounds )))).


Posted by: Econolicious | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:22 PM
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I'm sure the thread will by now long have strayed from the original point, but my own personal experiences show that *if* I keep to a training regime of fitness (cardio + muscle building) three times 1.5/2 hours a week and *if* I also keep myself to a strictish diet (no snacks, smaller portions at meal times, no sugary fizzy drinks) and *if * I keep this up for a year, it is possible for me to lose ten to 15 kilos, but it only takes a few weeks of not doing that stuff for me to regain them.

I've got sort of a "floating" weight that I can lose easily, where I can lose five kilos like that by just eating elss but anything after that takes a lot of effort.

On the other hand I may have been overweight for all my adult life at least, obese even but my blood pressure and cholestorol levels are the envy of many a thinner man.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:34 PM
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My psychiatrist wants me to start going to the gym. Those who have been following my ongoing saga with this psychiatrist will remember that I don't quite trust her 100%, but I know that there's a lot of evidence that exercise helps with depression, so I'm willing to go along with her on this one. The conversation went something like this:

Her: And you've been going to the gym, right?
Me: Uh, no.
Her: Well, you'll need to start. Even just three times a week is enough.
Me (unspoken): Three times a week? That sounds like a hell of a lot.
Me (spoken): Okay.

I continue to get the feeling that she can't really relate to my lifestyle.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:40 PM
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No one will be surprised to know that I agree with Unspoken Teo.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:43 PM
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"Even just three times a week"? Yeah, I would have been speaking your unspoken words.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:45 PM
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Just combine weightlifting with a drinking game.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:53 PM
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What, like pour the Smirnoff Ice into gallon bottles made of lead?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:55 PM
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I really did not like going to the gym, back during the brief summer, not even the whole summer, that I went to the university's gym about three times per week, until I stopped going. There wasn't anything wrong with it, exactly, it was just so dull.

Hell, back when I was a runner, I never liked training on the track (just going around in circles), and even though I was on the cross-country team, I never joined the track team. When I was a swimmer I finally got fed up with all the back and forth.

And yet I can still and stare at a computer for hours, or hold a book and keep turning its pages.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-25-10 11:56 PM
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I think maybe my long-term exercise plan should be to live in a place with lots of hills.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:00 AM
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211: do what I do and read on the treadmill or exercise bike.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:03 AM
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I've got sort of a "floating" weight that I can lose easily, where I can lose five kilos like that by just eating elss but anything after that takes a lot of effort.

On the other hand I may have been overweight for all my adult life at least, obese even but my blood pressure and cholestorol levels are the envy of many a thinner man.

Yes, to both of these. I was probably always well within 'normal' for weight until about 30-ish, but other than that, it's exactly the same. My blood pressure and cholesterol levels are always good whenever they are checked;* and there's a 5 - 8kg window within which my weight can float without an excessive effort by me, but outside of which I find it quite hard to shift.

* presumbly a combination of genes, being reasonably active, and not having a taste for fatty or salty food.**

** being overweight isn't because I eat a lot of fatty/salty processed food. My natural taste runs towards lower fat, low salt main meals anyway.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:11 AM
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re: 211/213

If your goal is just to improve CV fitness, rather than burn off fat, there are lots of quick, less boredom-inducing, ways to get that same effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-intensity_interval_training

The thing you use to do intervals doesn't have to be running or cycling. It could be circuits, or hitting a heavy bag, or some form of calisthenics. Or it could be some combination of running/cycling with these.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:18 AM
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i got removed from the local park (which is owned by some local university) by the fat rent a cop who rode 1/2 a mile across the giant field to tell me this, since i was on the rubbery trail 2 ft away from the public sidewalk

i had been going there 3x a week for about 5 years, except when i had a job long enough to join a gym

if its med-for-psych or can't-stick-with-it, i would suggest joining a pickup sports league, like frisbee or something. i found one via meetup.com


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:38 AM
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I actually enjoy running on trails/streets, and will be giving it another shot this summer after about 10 years away. Failing that, I'll try to pick up walking/hiking again. I'm kind of tired of doing so much sitting around.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:45 AM
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Having been roughly the same size for 16 years, I can't imagine how stressful that would be.

On the wallet too. A friend of mine has Crohn's and needs two complete wardrobes - the fat clothes and the thin clothes. Not cheap.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:29 AM
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My doctor and her med student were touting some study from the Brigham saying that basically I had to exercise (by which she means moderate walking) for an hour a day to maintain my weight and that it needed to be more like 90 minutes to lose it.

I hate WF, but I did move around a lot at that job. I was too tired to exercise afterwards, but my weight was stable.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:50 AM
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138: I like Medicare too, but apparently the shrinks in private practice who are "non-participating" hate it, because they can never figure out what they're allowed to charge, since it's always dropping and then Congress decides to do a temporary fix.

My Dad got referred to a dermatologist, and I think that there are only two or three in his town. The first thing that the office person said is, "

My sister, who works for a school district, has a Blue Cross HMO which is pretty great. Around here a Blue Cross PPO is probably the best you can get, but it would probably cost $9,000 for an individual. The value of my plan is about $7400.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 5:16 AM
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206: Teo, you really have to be upfront with psychiatrists. (I'm sure that this is true of other doctors, but they don't have tests they can do, so they're really reliant on what you tell them.)

You're probably stuck with student health services, but if you're not comfortable with this person, you might ask to see another one.

At a large state university, there was only one on staff for student health services, but getting referred out wasn't too hard. At Harvard, there was a lot more choice, because the University Health Service provided care to faculty and staff too.

I hate student health insurance. I once looked at Princeton's student health insurance, and they had extra loans available if you needed psychotherapy beyond a few sessions--you, know, because they couldn't include that in the cost of the insurance and socialize the cost.

Of course, that might not have worked. In Boston a ton of non-med mental health professionals (and even many of those) have stopped taking insurance anyway.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 5:30 AM
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On the gym, I'd like to find a way to go and to get back into weights, but my 1.5 hour commute leaves me tired at the end of the day and with little time if I leave at 6:30.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 5:32 AM
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My doctor and her med student were touting some study from the Brigham saying that basically I had to exercise (by which she means moderate walking) for an hour a day to maintain my weight and that it needed to be more like 90 minutes to lose it.

My parents cheerfully told me of that same study. Jesus fucking christ, who has the time to exercise an hour every day, unless you can incorporate it into a commute or something you're already doing? I was annoyed.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:06 AM
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First up, lots of research has shown that self-reported diets underestimate intake. Possibly you are eating a bit more and not realising it.

Secondly, you might be retaining extra water:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

Thirdly, you might be gaining muscle which is holding your weight steady. Do your clothes still fit the same?

Fourthly... I can't think of anything else, but I wanted to type "fourthly".


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:34 AM
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I once looked at Princeton's student health insurance, and they had extra loans available if you needed psychotherapy beyond a few sessions--you, know, because they couldn't include that in the cost of the insurance and socialize the cost.

This is true of Harvard's student health insurance as well, and was true ten years ago of Wash U's student health insurance. I don't know how it usually is for non-student plans, but it seems standard for students.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:03 AM
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202: ...or a person with an unusually high metabolism...

Which you could acquire via exercise.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:12 AM
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teo needs one of those treadmill desks.

neb needs to start carrying a cane, and beating people with it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:14 AM
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You can't acquire an unusually high metabolism via exercise. You can nudge your own predisposition slightly.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:14 AM
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222,223:Ankle & wrist weightbands!

It looks kinda dorky, but when I am in exercise mode I wear five pounds on each ankle and each wrist as I walk the dogs.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:14 AM
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It is pretty bulky to try to move up from five pound bands

Might be even better to wear a band on left ankle and right wrist only, and switch. I believe in unbalanced weights, if you are careful about warmups and your back etc. Unbalanced lifting...well I don't have time to explain how a 5 dumbbell in one hand and a 20 in the other work. One of the reasons I prefer dumbs to bars

You can always carry a dumbbell around, office, classroom, eating. You can be a topic of conversation, everyone will admire your determination.

Herschel Walker used to do crunches while watching TV, for three hours every night.

Half kidding/trolling. Couch potato most of the time. like us all.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:24 AM
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neb needs to start carrying a cane, and beating people with it.

I've done a tiny bit of cane [as a martial art], it's very cool. I think one is forced to grow a huge Victorian moustachio before mastery is granted.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:05 AM
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You can't acquire an unusually high metabolism via exercise. You can nudge your own predisposition slightly.

Disagree. It's true you might not be able to acquire an "unusually" high metabolism*, but the difference between a active metabolism and a sedentary metabolism is more significant than anything that could be described as a slight nudge.

*Although the original comment was made in the context of aging, and if you're vigorously active among an otherwise sedentary, aging population, your metabolism is very likely to be "unusually" high, unless it is "unusually" slow by default.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:10 AM
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I think one is forced to grow a huge Victorian moustachio before mastery is granted.

Hard to see how this is a negative.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:11 AM
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233: It collects all sorts of refuse.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:13 AM
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Mostly I was contesting "unusually".

but the difference between a active metabolism and a sedentary metabolism is more significant than anything that could be described as a slight nudge.

Is it? Is this strictly a statement about extra calories burned, or is metabolism more complicated than that? Because exercise doesn't burn that many calories, and some link upthread thoroughly debunked any afterburn notion.

Obviously, there are other huge benefits to being active over sedentary. I just am not sure if metabolism refers to them.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:25 AM
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235: the afterburn notion is different from increases in resting metabolism, which appear to be real.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:28 AM
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I agree with ogged.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:29 AM
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Although it seems like it may only be significant in the elderly.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:30 AM
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Although actually who knows, really.

This has been today's episode of "Sifu Googles Things". Thanks for tuning in!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:33 AM
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The resting metabolic rate (per kg wt) was increased in the diet-plus-exercise group compared with the control group (11% versus 4%, p

This is a big metabolic increase, statistically. But if a woman eats 1500 calories/day, this is a negligible difference experientially.

Which is why I was asking if we're strictly discussing calories burned or something more complicated.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:34 AM
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224: First up, lots of research has shown that self-reported diets underestimate intake. Possibly you are eating a bit more and not realising it.

This is why I keep on coming back to the deep wrongness of the original post. While it did say eat somewhat less, while not getting to the point of actually being hungry, it's certainly not recommending the kind of obsessive tracking you'd need to do to be certain you were actually eating less -- the idea is that if you're doing a sizable amount of cardio, reasonable non-obsessive dieting will make you lose weight.

I'm pretty sure I'm eating the same, and think I'm eating a little less -- at the amount I'm eating, I'm distinctly hungry between meals. And I have certainly increased the amount of cardio I'm doing a great deal. If the explanation is "Well, you must be eating more and not noticing it", that's perfectly plausible. But it means that the post, suggesting that the kind of intense dieting where you're tracking calories and weighing your servings of food is unnecessary for weight loss if you're just exercising enough in the range of a half hour a day, is nonsense, or at least not broadly applicable.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:36 AM
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241: LB, but aren't you being very persisent in ignoring the part of the post where Ogg-d says not to worry about your weight?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:38 AM
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is nonsense, or at least not broadly applicable.

Just how broad are you, LB?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:38 AM
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235: After talking about how exercise won't make you lose weight, I do wonder if there's a sense in which exercise feeds on itself. When I'm in better shape, I'm also moving a lot faster when I'm not formally exercising -- more likely to do things that involve physical exertion. While being fitter may not change your metabolism much, it might have a significant effect on your background level of activity.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:38 AM
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242: He's talking about weight loss -- saying don't obsess about a particular number, but unambiguously talking about weight loss.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:39 AM
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Well, I'm a broad, in the Mickey Spillane sense, if that's what you're asking. Although I've never seen a bishop kick a hole in a stained-glass window.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:40 AM
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235: Being active is a benefit, but not a huge one.

"the amount of LBM [lean body mass] appears to predict roughly 65% of the variance in RMR [resting metabolic rate] is attributed to differences in lean body mass. That is to say, more lean body mass will mean a higher RMR and vice versa."

"Quite in fact, your muscles don't actually use that much total energy on a daily basis. Despite making up nearly 40% of your total body mass, muscles only contribute about 25% of your total RMR. In contrast, your organs account for nearly 60% of your total RMR because they are so much more active."

"Weight training, by increasing muscle mass, should have a small effect on BMR as well although not all studies have shown this to be the case. Unfortunately, the most recent research points out just how small the effect is: at rest, a pound of muscle burns about 6 calories. "

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/metabolic-rate-overview.html


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:41 AM
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Another point which I think hasn't yet been brought up is that cycling is a funny kind of cardio, in that it doesn't have to be very intense at all. If you're in a high gear and coast a lot, and aren't going up that many hills, it's much more like brief anaerobic periods punctuating longish stretches of not very much. You have to really push yourself to make biking equivalent in intensity to, say, running. Hence e.g. Spinning classes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:41 AM
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at the amount I'm eating, I'm distinctly hungry between meals

For me, this is very unpleasant. Although, as bob said upthread, the problem might be less the amount you're eating and more what you're eating. Simple carbs will make you ravenous unless you absolutely stuff yourself with them.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:45 AM
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241: Are we ganging up on you or Ogged? I'm getting confused. (Also, I haven't read the whole thread.)

Here's the funny thing: losing fat is easy. If you consume less than you expend you have to burn up fat. The extra energy has to come from somewhere and you can't win against thermodynamics. On the other hand, losing fat is hard. Our hunger and habits are so precisely calibrated that is easy to do just enough extra eating or fidget just a little bit less so that nothing changes.

So I think I agree with you.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:47 AM
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Response to 242 cont.: See, e.g., his point 3:

Give yourself plenty of time. If you want to lose 20 pounds, give yourself 6-8 months. If you want to lose 30 or 40, give yourself a year.

I'm being cranky about this for semi-political reasons. Ogged's post is in a genre of weight-loss advice which boils down to "All you need to do is exercise a consistent, reasonable amount and eat reasonably. If you're not sedentary, you won't be overweight." And while as advice on how to live, it's good, as weightloss advice, it works an awful lot better for male athletes in their twenties than for anyone else, and it's depressing if you believe it, because it means that whatever you're doing exercise-wise, if you're still overweight it's not enough and you're really a sedentary slug. Overweight is diagnostic of the fact that you're not exercising enough to be healthy. This is an unnecessary source of bad feeling.

At 50-100 miles on my bike a week, I'm comfortable saying I'm not sedentary. But I'm nonetheless a little heavy, and that's not changing at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:49 AM
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251: but LB, you're not overweight. (I'm pretty sure?)


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:52 AM
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252: Yeah, you're one of the good ones, LB.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:52 AM
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My point was just that ogged wasn't claiming that would make someone runway-model-thin. Just not overweight. So it's hard to see how the advice failed for LB.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:55 AM
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252: I'm right on the line, BMI-wise. That doesn't mean much, but what does mean something is that in college through my late twenties, my weight was in a ten pound range between 135 and 145. After having kids, my weight's stable around 165. I look fine at this weight, certainly fine given that Buck thinks I'm cute and I don't have any particular reason to care what anyone else thinks, but I'd have less of a pot-belly and would have an easier time getting up hills on my bike if I were back down closer to 145.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:59 AM
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5'7", 145 isn't getting close to any runways. That'd be more like 5'7", 105.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:00 AM
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5'7", 145 isn't getting close to any runways

Yeah, since they all point uphill.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:04 AM
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248: Has no-one diagnosed a fixie yet? You better believe that Googling "brompton fixie" turns up a tonne of hits.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:12 AM
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250: f you consume less than you expend you have to burn up fat. The extra energy has to come from somewhere and you can't win against thermodynamics.

This sounds compelling, but is it even close to true? The human body isn't anything like perfectly efficient at converting food into fat/muscle/energy, and it's not clear to me that its efficiency level is fixed, or even close to fixed. At that point, you're not up against the laws of thermodynamics at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:13 AM
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What did physical reality say to the anti-gravity activist?

Up against the law!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:14 AM
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260: Alternatively, "Sucks to be you".


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:19 AM
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"I'm taking you down."


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:20 AM
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Physical reality can't talk, guys.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:22 AM
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Says who?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:23 AM
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259: I disagree. You are always up against thermodynamics.

I agree. Energy balance is complex, and seemingly small changes in diet or exercise can have larger effects than one might expect. As for your specific point I don't recall anything about the efficiency of digestion changing (outside of disease).

Same dude I've been referencing above addresses this:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/all-diets-work-the-importance-of-calories.html


http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/nutrient-intake-nutrient-storage-and-nutrient-oxidation.html


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:25 AM
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" "


Posted by: OPINIONATED PHYSICAL REALITY | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:28 AM
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As for your specific point I don't recall anything about the efficiency of digestion changing (outside of disease).

I'm not really limiting it to the efficiency of digestion here -- digestion's only one step in the route from food to fat/energy/muscle. Anecdotally, that level of efficiency is wildly different from person to person, and seems to be different for the same person over time. Buck eats more than I do (same food, larger servings), and appears to be starving on it on it -- 6'2", 155 right around now.

Think about it -- most people's weight is quite stable over a period of, say, months. It seems really implausible that their calorie-intake + energy expenditure is anywhere near as stable as their weight; there has to be a range in which it's not just food in = energy expended + fat + muscle, there's going to be a term for food lost to inefficient conversion that seems to vary to an extent to stabilize people.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:39 AM
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I want to know more about Halford's regime of swinging weights over his head. I have some puny barbells. Shall I swing them about? If so, what is the Halford Technique for doing so?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:45 AM
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I can certainly speak for the effect that having half your thyroid removed seems to have on your ability to burn calories.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:46 AM
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re: 268

I imagine he's talking about kettlebells. Google will tell you more than you ever wanted to know.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:46 AM
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Teo, saying that you don't like or connect to exercise is like saying you don't like reading. There's all sorts of kinds, and I have a hard time believing you don't like all of them.

Going to a conventional gym and working out by yourself on machines is one kind of exercise. I love exercise and crave it, but I'd skip it altogether before I did that kind. Past that, there's a kind for every personality.

Spiritual: yoga
Gentle, traditional: tai chi
Focused, technical: powerlifting
Same, with huge bursts: weightlifting
People oriented, intense: team field sports
Annoying playa: capoeira
Noisy, rhythmic: Japanese drumming
Monotonous self-loathing and punishment: distance running (Hi Otto!)

Also, this may not recommend it to you, but I do better when I'm working out with other people. A good group gives nice continuity and support. It is a low-key way to interact with people regularly but not know more about them than your practices if you don't want to.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:47 AM
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Step 1: holding a weight in each arm, lift arms above head.
Step 2: step back with your left foot while maintaining balance and keeping the weights steady.
Step 3: swing the weights around wildly while running around the house shouting "BLEEAAOOUHAGAAHUUUAABLOOOOAAAAHGA"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:47 AM
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265: Looking at your links, the guy you link to addresses the stuff I'm talking about (I think -- he's got some terms that aren't defined on the linked page) in his last heading "The Energy Balance Equation Isn't Static". It is, certainly, trivially true that you can't buck thermodynamics. But food intake - energy expended as a result of voluntary physical activity = energy stores isn't the full themodynamic equation, and the missing terms are variable from person to person, and in one person over time.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:47 AM
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268: I don't know Halford's method, but you don't need much of a method. This was linked here by someone years ago, I believe.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:48 AM
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Possibly clubbells. They're fun.

Use your puny barbells to learn the movement. When your control is consistently good, increase the weight (so that you don't waste your time doing millions of reps. We like just a few heavy reps, so we get to the endorphin part faster.)


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:50 AM
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206: Have you thought about taking up biking? It's good exercise, and a good way to get around (better than a car for short-range urban trips). It can be pretty fun, too.


Posted by: the Other Paul | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:52 AM
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re: 275

re: reps. Depends if you are going for strength/mass, or strength endurance, no?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:53 AM
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I largely agree. The body is very good at maintaining homeostasis and people will generally sit at their "set point" unless they take fairly determined steps to upset it. For example, I recall a paper showing most weight was gained around the Xmas period, when people really over-eat. I also recall something showing fidgeting being automatically adjusted to use more/less energy depending on intake.

My argument is this: thermodynamics has to hold! It must! However, the way in which body composition changes in response to food and exercise is fairly complex, and the body has a lot of options when it comes to making sure nothing changes. I'm not sure efficiency of conversion is one of them, but changing metabolic rate certainly as are hormone levels. This doesn't invalidate thermodynamics in some magic voodoo way, it just means you might find yourself unconsciously sitting on your butt at bit more when you try dieting.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:54 AM
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273: So we agree. How boring.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:56 AM
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However, the way in which body composition changes in response to food and exercise is fairly complex, and the body has a lot of options when it comes to making sure nothing changes. I'm not sure efficiency of conversion is one of them, but changing metabolic rate certainly as are hormone levels. This doesn't invalidate thermodynamics in some magic voodoo way, it just means you might find yourself unconsciously sitting on your butt at bit more when you try dieting.

What this boils down to is that while thermodynamics is true, it's not a terribly useful source of information about the effects of diet and exercise on weight loss, because there are significant terms in the equation that aren't under voluntary control. No 'magic voodoo' necessary.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:57 AM
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279: Comity!


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:58 AM
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Ttam gets it right. Kettlebells. To be perfectly frank, my current routine comes from a book subtitled "Strength Secrets of the Soviet Supermen" so we're not exactly talking peer reviewed exercise science.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:01 AM
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Ttam gets it right. Kettlebells. To be perfectly frank, my current routine comes from a book subtitled "Strength Secrets of the Soviet Supermen" so we're not exactly talking peer reviewed exercise science.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:02 AM
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You should hear the whining we do if our trainer tells us to do sets of more than six reps.

"What, like, count on BOTH hands?!"
"Jesus, do we LOOK like bodybuilders?"
"Do we look like people who can count?"
"Because I've got nothing better to do than lift things for hours?"

Eh, chicks always get the low-weights, high-reps advice. I figure they've heard that already, so I'm going to push very heavy, low reps on them. Sadly, they have no idea how strong they are, so even with that in mind, they're usually dicking around with about half the weight they could use.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:02 AM
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The assisted chinup machine is right by the locker rooms where I change after biking, and I've been working on my chinups. I think that's what got me up the hill last week -- I hadn't done the math on it, but the pulling on the handlebars to force the pedals around after my weight won't do it anymore is essentially the same motion. I'm still not close to an unassisted chinup, but getting closer, and doing low reps of high (for me) weights.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:05 AM
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BLEEAAOOUHAGAAHUUUAABLOOOOAAAAHGA

The corresponding Tazmanian Devil Diet keeps your metabolic rate admirably high but my doctor advises against faux turkeys fashioned from sticks of dynamite.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:05 AM
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Everything Megan sez: SO TRUE!!!!!!!1!


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:06 AM
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W. Breeze is remarkably discerning and intelligent. Handsome, too.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:07 AM
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re: 284

Yeah, for me I need more strength endurance, so relatively high reps are good. But I'm mostly doing bodyweight exercises rather than free weights.

This is for three reasons:
i) I'm doing circuits so I'm getting cardio at the same time
ii) I don't have gym membership
iii) I'm weak enough in the upper body that standard bodyweight exercises are challenging [and I can't actually do some of them at high reps].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:07 AM
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Teo, saying that you don't like or connect to exercise is like saying you don't like reading. There's all sorts of kinds, and I have a hard time believing you don't like all of them

I'm sure none of them hang out at Unfogged, but there are many many people that don't like to read.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:09 AM
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But they're all wrong.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:10 AM
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So why do low weight/high rep workouts build mass without a corresponding increase in strength? Or is this not even true?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:12 AM
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Don't make me google this, people.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:15 AM
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As far as I know, that's not even true. I'm sure Megan knows more than me, but as far as I know, very low weight/high rep workouts won't build mass at all.

For me, I'm talking about push-ups, and bodyweight squats, one-legged squats, 'bastards', pull-ups, that sort of thing. Not 100 x bicep curl with a 2lb weight.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:16 AM
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292: High reps build endurance. Moderate reps (about 5-8) build mass. Low reps (1-5) builds limit strength and power.

This is all very approximate. It is more useful to understand the mechanisms but I don't have time to explain them. Just note that building strength also increases endurance, as if your limit strength is higher your endurance at a fixed weight will also increase. E.g. if you can squat 200lb and raise that to 400lbs the number of reps you can squat at 200lbs has obviously increased. For most people working on strength is more useful than high reps.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:17 AM
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So why do low weight/high rep workouts build mass without a corresponding increase in strength? Or is this not even true?

The traditional myth is that they do the exact opposite. For women who want "tone" without any mass.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:18 AM
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291: Only a few of them hang out at Unfogged, but there are many many people that are wrong.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:21 AM
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295: Just a clarification: mass and strength are proportional. Bigger muscles can move more weight. Training for strength will increase mass and vice versa. The guidelines are just about biasing the results towards one or the other.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:22 AM
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Ah, I hadn't understood the low/moderate distinction.
So why aren't mass and limit strength more directly related? Is it a difference in muscle composition? Nervous system training?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:23 AM
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299 before I saw 298.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:25 AM
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Teo, saying that you don't like or connect to exercise is like saying you don't like reading. There's all sorts of kinds, and I have a hard time believing you don't like all of them.

Did I say I didn't like exercise? I like (some kinds of) exercise.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:26 AM
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But now I don't understand how one can bias proportional quantities. Does this have to do with fractions?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:27 AM
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I like (some kinds of) exercise.

Laydeez.*

* come on, someone had to say it ...


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:27 AM
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I like (some kinds of) exercise.

Which kinds? Doing those kinds would be more fun and probably easier to keep up than going to the gym (if you don't like doing that).


Posted by: the Other Paul | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:30 AM
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Not to oversell my faddish, possibly bogus kettlebell routine (and if you saw me in person, I REALLY could not sell an exercise routine, although this one seems to have made a big difference in a short time), but one of the great advantages is that you just need to buy one simple thing, do a few exercises in your backyard for 20 minutes max, and end up a lot stronger with that anti-depressive exercise feeling.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:33 AM
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206: Low weights/high reps will build strength. It'll build strength in the last five or six reps if you've exhausted yourself during the first twenty reps. People who value their time should lift heavy (after warming up the movement and learning how).

We have two guys who want to build in my group. They do a lot of moderate weights (60, 70% of effort and lots of reps). We tease them when we've finished our own and recovered our breath.

Teo, I'm sorry. You didn't say you don't like exercise. That was the impression I got from 206, but I'm glad to be wrong.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:36 AM
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Kettlebells are great, and a lot of work. I'm not surprised you're getting a lot of of them.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:38 AM
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303: you're Scottish. Surely you mean "...henz".


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:38 AM
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Really, my problem isn't with exercise per se at all, nor even with going to the gym. I've never gone to a gym, but I'd probably like it if I did. I walk everywhere, so that's exercise, but I don't think it's intense enough for what I need. It's really more a matter of overcoming all my weird inhibitions and self-consciousness. One thing I'm not good at is incorporating big changes into my daily routine.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:39 AM
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305: Great. Now all I need is a backyard.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:40 AM
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"Wifieeeez"?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:40 AM
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Perhaps we need to fly Megan and Otto to New Brunswick. It could be a reality show!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:40 AM
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Homies with WiFi?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:41 AM
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309: make them smaller changes; instead of walking everywhere, hop everywhere.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:43 AM
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This kettlebell idea is intriguing.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:43 AM
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Perhaps we need to fly Megan and Otto to New Brunswick.

Otto? Why Otto?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:43 AM
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re: 308

"Hen" is vocative. And "wifeys" implies older, mature women.

But nice try!

re: 305

Lots of people seem to like 'em. Even people who aren't explicit advocates of them, or part of the kettlebell 'cult'; so there must be something there.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:44 AM
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"Hen" is vocative.

As is "laydeez," of course.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:46 AM
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make them smaller changes; instead of walking everywhere, hop everywhere.

I hear hopsters are the next big thing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:47 AM
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The shovelglove site Brock linked to upthread seems interesting.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:48 AM
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Oh, that New Brunswick. I was getting confused.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:48 AM
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re: 318

Yeah, I was searching for the right distinction. You'd never use 'hen' as a plural for a start, only when directly addressing an individual. And 'hen' is intrinsically patronizing or affectionate rather than lascivious.

Functions more like "love", as in "Thanks very much, love", where you'd never refer to a group of "loves".


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:49 AM
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322: I thought he was talking in the sense of "hens on hen night".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:50 AM
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320: Yeah, the shovelglove looks like a similar concept.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:50 AM
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You know what was another douchbaggy plural term for women? Honeys. Let's not bring it back unless we're doing so ironically.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:51 AM
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Otto? Why Otto?

Don't you want to see me, teo?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:52 AM
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325: Really? I've been using that term for groups of attractive people of either sex for years.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:53 AM
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324: I like the DIY feel, and the fact that a sledgehammer is actually useful for other things besides training to be a Soviet agent.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:54 AM
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I guess AWB is a douchebag, then!


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:54 AM
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Don't you want to see me, teo?

Sure, but I don't see the connection to exercise specifically.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:54 AM
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Otto is great; of course you want to him to visit. My guess is so that we can present you with the whole range of fun activities (like lifting) and horrible drudgery (like running far) and you can choose the one you like.

Surely your university has PE classes. There's little you know better in the world than how to take a class. That would be familiar ground, and a set place in your schedule. I suppose Fall is a ways off, though.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:55 AM
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329: That's probably true. (Singular of "honeys" is usually "dolly.")


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:55 AM
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I think I hear "honeys" used to describe attractive men a lot more than any other context. This may be all from one or two utterers though.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 10:57 AM
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But yeah, as I've said over and over, aerobic exercise does way more for my mood than the pills I take. Why, just yesterday I was feeling all world-weary and dysphoric. I remembered I hadn't been running since Sunday. So, down to the ocean and back in an hour at about 80% of Max HR it was. Half an hour after completing the run, life is worth it again.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:00 AM
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332: Is "dolly" also used for either sex?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:00 AM
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331: Megan is correct again! Yes, Otto and Megan were to be presented to teo for, ahem, cross training purposes. Ogged could go too of course if he weren't dead.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:00 AM
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My guess is so that we can present you with the whole range of fun activities (like lifting) and horrible drudgery (like running far) and you can choose the one you like.

Hitting people or things is also fun.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:01 AM
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I hear the latest hep way to refer to attractive females is "denominators".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:01 AM
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334 gets it right. Weight exercise has none of these mood effects.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:02 AM
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Or... they're sort of a cult, but I know people who have gotten a huge amount from Crossfit. If there's a Crossfit near you, they'd be happy to lead you through a very directive daily workout, taking all the burden of thinking about exercise off your mind.

People get in incredible shape with them, and people I like do it, so I know the scene has good people in it.

It is a lot like my gym, but my gym is a lot more female and queer. But my gym isn't everywhere and Crossfit is. You could just surrender to them for a month and see if you like it.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:04 AM
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339: But have you tried shovelglove?

Further to 338: Also "irrationals".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:04 AM
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335: Just dudes I think.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:04 AM
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337: Oh right! And ttaM for hitting things! This is shaping up to be Queer Fit Eye for the Sedentary Guy.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:04 AM
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342: Sexist.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:05 AM
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I hate gyms, but am tempted to investigate this scary looking boxing gym in my ghetto-tastic neighborhood. It has skulls painted on the outside!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:06 AM
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Are you serious, CN? Do you mean that lifting doesn't give you the mood boost?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:06 AM
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I can cover the "hitting people" side of things as well, but I like the sound of a trip with teo, Otto and ttaM.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:08 AM
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345: If it were really tough, it would have painted skulls on the outside.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:10 AM
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I've thought about Crossfit, but am too scared. Honestly, the gym with skulls seems less scary.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:12 AM
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I've also toyed with the idea. I'll do almost anything so long as there's someone there telling me what to do -- the idea of a cult-like fitness program sounds attractive. But I can't find a crossfit gym convenient enough that I think I'd go.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:13 AM
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347: You should take Rob H for kettleball training. He looks pretty fit in this video.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:14 AM
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Do Crossfit trainers hang around on the sidewalk out front offering free personality fitness tests?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:16 AM
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The thing about crossfit is that bascially anyone can open an affiliate and the affiliates vary dramatically in the quality of their trainers. The good ones will give you one of the best and most challenging and yet, somehow, most fun workouts in the world. The bad ones will very likely give you serious injuries, and then shrug it off as insufficient "toughness" on your part.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:16 AM
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I'm FB friends with the dude who started up the local Crossfit place. It sounds interesting, but I think it attracts a particularly douchey crowd (in addition to non-douchey people). Exempli gratia: When local dude recently posted something like, "Friday afternoon beers at the gym?" He got a bunch of responses to the tune of, "THAT'S NOT PALEO!!!1!"


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:18 AM
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Like, fior example: deadlifting heavy weights for time (i.e., as many reps as possible in two minutes) is very dangerous if you don't have someone who knows a hell of a lot about proper technique hovering over you the whole time, ready to correct any probelms.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:19 AM
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354: Someone should open up a chain of gyms called On The Veldt.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:21 AM
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The other recommendation I would make, teo, is to consider signing up for something rather than simply "trying to exercise more". If you're like me, and I think many others, the exercise program will be hard to stick to unless there is a larger structure or focal event in the future. Signing up for my first running race was what led me down the path from exercise dilettante to avid amateur: I found that putting down the bucks led me to train regularly for the first time.

So now I sign up for races and then make spreadsheets of the next 18 weeks of workouts. I can see where I've been, where I am going, and what the purpose of each workout is. Working towards a goal that is 18 weeks or less away provokes so much less existential angst than my previous regime of simply intending to include some vaguely defined "regular exercise" in my life, forever. My exercise spreadsheets also add structure to my life; I think this has benefited me during these largely unstructured Ph.D. years. (At times, it may have reached a point where I was working out to avoid dealing with my lack of a real social life, but that's another matter.)

And though running and races have worked for me, I don't think mine is the only path to exercise enlightenment. Maybe you can just work out on your own without a defined program. Maybe something like Crossfit would be right for you. But I do think commitment over the medium term--to a spreadsheet, to a group of people, to not wasting the money you paid for those classes--is an often neglected factor when people are considering working more exercise into their life.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:22 AM
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I've worked out at a Crossfit gym when I needed to get a workout in but was in a different city. They seemed nice enough. My friend runs a Crossfit gym, and he's sweet as can be. I don't know how gentle their intake system is, but I suspect that as soon as you get used to it, you'll forget why you ever thought it was scary.

I have no idea about your local boxing gym, but I will say that boxing is the hardest thing I've ever tried (not technically, physically). If you try it, don't get down on yourself if it seems really hard. That's not a reflection on you, and I'm sure it would get easier fast.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:22 AM
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356: The equipment's very simple -- a large room full of climbing ropes and other gymnastic apparatus, also containing an underfed puma. They lock you in for an hour, and you stay out of the puma's way.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:25 AM
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359: For the deluxe plan, they hand you a spear and you have to kill a mastodon (which is actually just an elephant with some rigged-up big tusks).


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:28 AM
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OR! Exercise doesn't have to be anything like Crossfit and running and lifting. There is a great big world of meditative exercise or dance (lindy hop!) or yoga or canoeing. I understand that lots of attractive women do those.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:31 AM
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Someone should open up a chain of gyms called On The Veldt

Commercial for "On the Veldt Gym"

Scene: A small group of attractive twentysomthings, all very fit, jogging across the savannah in a pack. Close up on the faces. All seem to be eyeing each other wearily. A lion roars, and the jog becomes a sprint. Voiceover:

On the Veldt: If you're not first, you're lunch.

Fade to black.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:31 AM
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iPhone atlatl!


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:31 AM
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It's my understanding that straight men who enroll in dance classes pull loads of tail (once they overcome the initial strong presumption that they're gay).


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:33 AM
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On the Veldt: If you're not first, you're lunch. I don't have to be faster than the puma. I just have to be faster than you.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:33 AM
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363: indeed.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:33 AM
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I think we should simply encourage teo to get laid. One: we have a proven track record of successful advice-giving with regards to the matter. Two: as ttaM suggests above, it's exercise.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:37 AM
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367: Yeah. Go get fucked, teo.

</lenny bruce>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:40 AM
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It's my understanding that straight men who enroll in dance classes pull loads of tail (once they overcome the initial strong presumption that they're gay).

Mythbusters:

A recent episode on one of the DisneyChannel dreck that my tweens watch the same advice was dispensed. Turns out the only ones signed up for the class were doodz. Get it?!! HAHAHAHAHAHA. There is a special place in hell for the writers of these shows. And they need to pay special royalties to the old vaudeville routines they keep recycling.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:43 AM
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It's my understanding that straight men who enroll in dance classes pull loads of tail

Apparently it doesn't necessarily work this way in Silicon Valley, though, where dance classes are apparently often male-dominated (presumably because all the male computer geeks have read on the internet that dance classes are a great place to meet single women). This lady friend of mine is an avid dancer, and she is welcomed at the dance classes of [Well-Known Tech Company], despite not working there, in part because she helps make the classes more gender-balanced.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:44 AM
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370: But does she pull loads of tail?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:45 AM
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Someone should open up a chain of Dance Studios called "Stalag 17".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:46 AM
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371: I believe the technical term is "throughput". (No, it's fine. I'll see myself out.)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:47 AM
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Ah, well, I didn't even realize that was a well-known myth. It was told to me by (female) dancers, as if they spoke from experience, but they might have just been repeating the myth.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:49 AM
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374: It's all part of an eleaborate prank.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:50 AM
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Yeah, they're just pulling our tails.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:51 AM
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I know guys who have scored with girls from dance classes. YMMV.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:52 AM
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You know who pulls loads of tail? Single dudes in birthing classes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:54 AM
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I know guys who have scored with girls. YMMV.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:55 AM
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378: Dudes who are softball umpires. ... no, wait.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:56 AM
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You'd probably have to be a pretty good dancer, I'd think. The fat awkward dude doesn't suddenly become super-attractive to women who are extremely focused on being non-awkward and thin.

And if you're a thin, non-awkward straight male who is excellent at dancing, you're probably not having too much trouble with women to begin with.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:57 AM
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378: Dudes who manage petting zoos?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 11:58 AM
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Also, good male dancers are fucking ridiculously awesome athletes.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:00 PM
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who are extremely focused on being non-awkward and thin

My guess is that this is less true of people in regular social-dance events. I'm sure it gets more intense in competitive dance, and likely solo dance.

The fat graceful guy I knew through Ultimate who also did social dance seemed to have lots of ladyfriends.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:01 PM
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"Fucking" there was meant as an adjective, but it could also be part of a verb.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:02 PM
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And if you're a thin, non-awkward straight male who is excellent at dancing, you're probably not having too much trouble with women to begin with.

But he comes into dance class with glasses on, see, so the girls think he's a nerd at first. Then he takes the glasses off and whammo- he's a total fox! It will lead to hijinx and hilarity, I tell ya!


Posted by: Anonymous Disney Channel Writer | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:02 PM
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My guess is that this is less true of people in regular social-dance events. I'm sure it gets more intense in competitive dance, and likely solo dance.

Do "regular social-dance events" count as "dance classes"?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:05 PM
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The Disney Channel, FYI, is like a retirement home for old hack-y sitcom writers. Seriously, the reason so many of the gags on those shows seem tired is that it is literally the same people who wrote for One Day at a Time who are writing those shows.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:05 PM
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I would pull more tail if I didn't hate being hit on. (Hit upon?) Just imagining going to a dance class and being surrounded by dudes with lines ready grosses me out.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:06 PM
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215, 295: I've been more than satisfied with the pyramid-set approach (high rep/low weight for endurance, fewer reps/more weight for size, low reps/max weight for limit strength). There is apparently a scientific justification for it to do with the order in which different types of muscle fibre are called on as you exert more effort.

Also, I do the weights stuff, then the abdominals, then a burst of high intensity cardio - either bike or swimming (thus bringing the thread home).


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:08 PM
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I wasn't thinking of monthly neighborhood or citywide squaredancing or ballroom dancing get-togethers as dance classes. There are also more formal dance classes, aren't there?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:08 PM
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Just imagining going to a dance class and being surrounded by women who are resentfully bracing for me to start hitting on them grosses me out.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:09 PM
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388. Or their progeny. My cousin, a onetime actress, is married to a guy who has done several cable tv shows for that demographic. His parents were sitcom writers for all the shows that were in syndication when I was a lad.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:10 PM
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Imagining going to a dance class where I learned to dance and the other people there (some of whom were men) also learned to dance sounds very pleasant. My guess is that people going to class for the sake of the activity itself is what happens almost all of the time. We aren't talking about capoeira here.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:18 PM
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In NYC, I'm pretty sure leaving your house is an invitation for "we both know why we're here."


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:21 PM
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389 meet 392. A match!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:22 PM
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395: For the hunting?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:23 PM
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In related news, I don't ever have to go to my hideous job ever again! YAY!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:25 PM
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398: Hurray! Did you quit?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:26 PM
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There are also more formal dance classes, aren't there?

Sure, there are such events all the time. I gather there's typically an hour or so of instruction at the beginning of the evening, followed by a lengthy period thereafter where music is played and if you're a dude (dancing seems to be all about reinforcing the patriarchy) you actually have to have the courage to go ask someone to dance, which sounds unpleasant to me, and which seems like it would be absolutely terrible at the beginning of one's dancing career when one knows that one doesn't have all that much more than awkwardness to offer one's desired dancing partner. (And to make things even worse, there are apparently nonverbal social cues that one has to deal with: The ladyfriend says that you're not supposed to ask someone to dance with you unless you know that she wants to dance with you. (Apparently it's an eye contact thing.))

These events are held weekly and the idea is that you go week after week to the same place and gradually get better. The LF has said it can take a couple months to know what you are doing, and that weekly commitment is necessary to acquire this comfort. So, if you can push through the initial awkwardness, it might be rewarding. But from what I've heard dance sure doesn't sound like the painless route to a social life that it is sometimes made out to be. I suppose the key would be to find an environment full of beginners, so that you feel less awkward about sucking.

I gather that something called Blues Dance is trendy around here. It's more improvisational, less focused on memorizing complex steps, and thus may be better suited to some beginners.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:27 PM
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And to make things even worse, there are apparently nonverbal social cues that one has to deal with: The ladyfriend says that you're not supposed to ask someone to dance with you unless you know that she wants to dance with you.

You need to bring a date! I knew it!


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:29 PM
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399: I lied and told them I was ineligible for reappointment for next year. They tried to create a new position for me so I could stay. I explained to them that I am not good at the job, and had only come in for 2 of the 15 required hours per week all semester. They said they'd really like me to be in full-time. I explained that I'd been offered some courses I actually wanted to teach in the fall elsewhere (true). They are trying to get me to come in during the summer or to have lunch or a party. I am busy all summer.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:32 PM
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I am busy all summer.

Washing your hair?


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:37 PM
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Gosh, AWB, they sure love you!

Did you make a counter-offer that you would not come into the office at all, and not do anything for them at all, but they could continue to pay you?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:39 PM
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Blues Dance is giving me the same vibes as Contact (another type of dance). Great for the people who like it, I suppose.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:40 PM
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404: Their expectations are so incredibly low they treat it like a favor when I show up, spend half an hour there complaining about how I don't want to be there while refreshing Facebook, and then go home. I gave explicit demands all year long for what I would need to be productive, but, because they included a semi-private office, they ran directly counter to the real purpose of my being there, which was, it seems, to provide sexual harassment bait/a babysitter for the incompetent motherfucker who works in the room where I was placed.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:48 PM
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I'm glad you're quit of them, AWB.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:51 PM
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405: Is Blues Dance related to Ceroc? God, what an abomination Ceroc is.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 12:54 PM
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||

Being old sucks. I went out with a friend for her fortieth birthday last night, saw a truly terrible new play and had two! only two! drinks, and my head still hurts.

|>


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:00 PM
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Your head hurts because of the bad play, not the minimum amount of alcohol consumed. See, all better.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:03 PM
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saw a truly terrible new play

What play was that?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:07 PM
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Something called "The Usher's Ball", set in WW I. There was a pacifist suffragette, two characters that were struck by lightning (one twice), a chorus of ghostly soldiers who accompanied themselves on ukulele, accordion, and some kind of kazoo, and the immortal line: "But the penalty for allowing the enemy to escape is death by execution!"


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:09 PM
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The actors were all very good, and the staging was interesting. I'm always depressed by how incredibly good you have to be to produce something mediocre in the performing arts.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:10 PM
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have no idea about your local boxing gym, but I will say that boxing is the hardest thing I've ever tried (not technically, physically). If you try it, don't get down on yourself if it seems really hard. That's not a reflection on you, and I'm sure it would get easier fast.

Yes, and no. The circuit training and bagwork in a real boxing gym is pretty damn hard, but it's possible to develop some level of fitness for boxing without being uber uber fit.

I spar a few rounds of straight boxing [no kicks] most weeks, and it's often amusing how my classmates who are superficially fitter [runners, and the like] are completely blowing and struggling long before I am. Presumably because my anaerobic fitness is OK, and I relax [and so breathe properly] rather than tensing up.

But yeah, when I went to a boxing club for a while, the conditioning class was easily the most intense thing I've done.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:11 PM
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death by execution

As opposed to death by electrocution, or even death by elocution?


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:11 PM
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415: My point exactly. That line made it through rehearsals with no one cracking up at it?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:13 PM
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For a while I was trying to learn lindy hop by taking lessons set up the way Otto describes it. The lindy hop is a hard dance to learn. I took classes for a couple of months and didn't really get it down. If you are a man trying to meet women (which I wasn't), I think you would kind of have to get pretty good at dancing first. On the other hand, everyone is very nice and it is a good way to get out of the house.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 1:29 PM
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Ceroc looks pretty accessible. Perhaps it isn't an artform, but looking at the Wikipedia page doesn't tell me why it is an abomination.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:02 PM
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I just lost about 15 pounds by hiking 600 miles on the Appalachian Trail. People should try that.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:03 PM
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Is it because it is so structured? But a couple people here have said that they don't want their exercise to include free will.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:03 PM
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Everyone I know who moved to Japan for a year came back tens of pounds lighter. You could try that, if the Appalachian Tunnel isn't your style.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:04 PM
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See if there are some videos of Ceroc on youtube, and you'll see what I mean.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:08 PM
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303 to 419.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:09 PM
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by hiking 600 miles on the Appalachian Trail

Were you with a Brazilian woman, Matt?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:09 PM
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Appalachian Tunnel

The first 400 miles or so aren't so bad if you start in the spring. Lots of mountains with views and no leaves on the trees yet. The mid-atlantic is kinda boring, I admit.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:11 PM
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424: That joke was funny until I realized you referenced the wrong South American country.matachaxis


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:13 PM
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425: That's a long tunnel. It couldn't be longer or more boring than the novel The Tunnel, though.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:14 PM
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Brazilian

Just say Mexican if you can't remember.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:15 PM
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Hiking that far is super impressive, Matt. Did you have a good time?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:15 PM
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426, 428: And miss giving y'all a chance to call me racist?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:16 PM
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428: "Mexican" is the universal safe word.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:16 PM
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206
Me (unspoken): Three times a week? That sounds like a hell of a lot.
226
Jesus fucking christ, who has the time to exercise an hour every day, unless you can incorporate it into a commute or something you're already doing?

Yeah, really. It's not a lot in absolute terms, but it gets to be more once you add in time to go to the gym (if travel is required) and change clothes before and after and shower and all that. And even if not for that, "just" half an hour, three times a week is a big commitment if it's not a priority. It's too easy to procrastinate, too easy to let other activities infringe on exercise time, etc.

Personally, in 2009 I went to the gym an average of twice a week, I think, maybe even more often than that, and jog for 20 to 25 minutes on a treadmill. I tried to go more often, but didn't beat myself up about it. That attendance petered out by February, though. I've had more going on socially, and going to the gym was the least fun and most easily dropped activity to make time for other stuff, and I've been eating a little better (a very little) so I feel as if I don't need it so much. Well, no noticeable weight change one way or another, and no doubt when/if I start going back to the gym I'll find my performance depressing the first few times, but it really was just a chore.

334
Half an hour after completing the run, life is worth it again.

I've heard about this effect, but as far as I know I've never experienced it. Either I'm not exercising right or I'm expecting too much from it, but I've always been baffled when people talk about feeling good as a direct result of exercise. Pride when I go beyond my usual limits, sure, and various other good moods like that, but I have the impression that some people get something stronger and more visceral from exercise than I've never noticed.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:16 PM
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.matachaxis

And I was doing a good job making fun of M/tch until I accidentally hit the center mouse button and pasted in a typographic error-containing Matlab command.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:16 PM
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.matachaxis

And I was doing a good job making fun of M/tch until I accidentally hit the center mouse button and pasted in a typographic error-containing Matlab command.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:17 PM
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431: "Safe word" s/b "freebie"


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:19 PM
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Did you have a good time?

Short answer: yes!

However, a proper accounting of my absurdly frequent mood swings on the trail would be a much longer story. I can see why so many people write memoirs after they finish. In sum: it's really long. Backpacking in the rain sucks. Bears are cool. The people are awesome.

Also I saw a guy named Hot Sauce slap a pony.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:20 PM
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Why on God's green earth would anyone run on a treadmill? OK, if it's Buffalo in February maybe, but being outside is nice.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:21 PM
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don't want their exercise to include free will

That's me. I quickly run out of ideas or forget what I should be doing next, and I definitely don't push myself as hard as I can go without being told to. I was doing a weekly boot-camp kind of class at my gym, but then discovered that one of my classmates had dropped out after developing a stress fracture in her hip from it. When my legs started to hurt for a week at a time, in a way that was entirely consistent with something in the shin splint or hairline fracture direction, I dropped out too. It's a shame, because I suspect the running in place (with periodic high-knees bouts) was the source of the problem, but wasn't really a core part of the class, just aerobic filler.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:23 PM
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Also I saw a guy named Hot Sauce slap a pony.

This is code for something, but what?


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:24 PM
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I thought .matachaxis was, like, Mexican for .com or something.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:25 PM
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New York is crowded. Anyplace I'd run, I'm dodging people enough that it's irritating. On a treadmill I can just run.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:25 PM
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I loved running in NY -- it was one of my favorite things about my brief sojourn living in the place. Once you got onto that path on the edge of Manhattan, or Central Park, running was just awesome. Much easier than here, unless you live right next to the beach or Griffith Park.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:29 PM
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New York is crowded.

See, there's your problem right there.

(I'm not particularly consistent about this, as I very much covet a Concept 2 erg.)


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:29 PM
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437
Why on God's green earth would anyone run on a treadmill?

I don't know, I never really thought about jogging outdoors. (I think I might have been too self-conscious for it in Vermont, although now that I write that down it sounds crazy, and here I don't think I'd want to dodge trashcans and branches on sidewalks and do a sad-sack jog in place every two minutes when I come to a crosswalk).

The advantage of a treadmill is that I could do it after work. That's particularly true here, where the gym is two floors down, but I imagine the same would basically be true with a gym membership - either way, there's no risk of going home and being too tired or distracted to leave again, no risk of missing it because I put something else off until the last minute, etc. If I'm planning on a session on a treadmill, bringing a change of clothes both commits me to it and is all I need.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:32 PM
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Running hurts my knees, although I otherwise enjoy it. The elliptical machine at the gym bores me to tears but doesn't hurt my knees. So that's what I do.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:35 PM
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I very much covet a Concept 2 erg

I have one sitting in my back shed (or at least I think I do). I bought it years ago and then hurt my back badly enough that I had to give up both rowing and facsimiles thereof. If you live nearby, you're welcome to come pick it up.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:36 PM
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445: Bave, just wondering, when you run, do you heel strike?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:38 PM
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444: I've finally admitted to myself that my only chance of consistently exercising during the work week is to get my ass out of bed and do it first thing in the morning. The logistics of going somewhere else to exercise rather than just starting from my own front door are also a consistency-killer.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:38 PM
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446: Thanks, but while I'm only one state over, it's the one to your southwest. If you want to get rid of it, a Craigslist ad should handle pretty quickly. There seems to be a lot of demand for used ones.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:41 PM
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Not sure what that is. I think my heel hits the ground first when I run.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:42 PM
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On a treadmill I can just run.

They should put treadmills in miniature wind-tunnels.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:43 PM
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I've always told myself that some day I'll be healthy enough to start rowing again. There are several good clubs, and a few killer teams, in Sacramento. But maybe it's time to let go of the lie and sell the damn thing.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:43 PM
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The public pool at the park close to work opens to the public next week. Thank you, New Deal. Californians are still gratefully using the facilities you built.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:45 PM
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Regrettably, this newfangled weather should keep anyone from using that pool. Which is to say, public works are wasted on the public. If that pool were private, it long since would have been repurposed into something useful, like a site to drill for oil.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:48 PM
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Who could have imagined that House Republicans would commit a boner like this?


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:51 PM
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Thank you, New Deal. Californians are still gratefully using the facilities you built.

Well, those that aren't falling apart, anyway. But I think that usage plays a big part here.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:52 PM
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Holy crap, it is going to be cold. I'm worried that my memories of swimming in slightly warmer water on much hotter days aren't going to be enough insulation.

Would you really row locally? I've idly considered rowing for years, but can't get to West Sac. without a car. If I knew someone there I might think harder about how to manage it.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 2:54 PM
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There is a great big world of meditative exercise or dance (lindy hop!) or yoga or canoeing. I understand that lots of attractive women do those.

Not that teo would sign up for yoga just to meet chix, but man oh man, can I tell you how obvious it is when that's why a guy is there?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 3:14 PM
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I hate being outside running in the sun. I also hate being outside running in the rain. Also true of the snow. Also, I hate having to be constantly making decisions about whether to start or stop or slow down or change directions. I don't know how anyone can do it just for exercise's sake.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 3:21 PM
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I hate gyms. Being outside is definitely much nicer. Plus, when you're running outside, you have to finish your route, or else you won't be where you want to get to.

Biking is good, too, but requires a bigger time commitment. An hour of running seems like a pretty darn good workout in a way that an hour of (even fairly fast) biking does not.

I'd like to try rowing, but the machines bore the shit out of me and don't get me tired quickly enough, and actually rowing seems like oy the hassle.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 3:36 PM
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I'd like to try rowing, but the machines bore the shit out of me

Even the ones with the little video race against the pixels?


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 3:40 PM
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oy the hassle.

Feh!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 3:40 PM
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461: I don't know that I've ever tried those. That could be more fun, in theory. The ones they had at the gym at my school had a mode where side-by-side machines could compete (but the graphics were boring). That seemed like it could have been interesting.

Eh, running and biking plus the occasional recreational [swim/tennis/bar fight] seem good enough for now. If my legs continue to get stronger and my arms continue to wither I'll be much less prone to tipping over.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 3:42 PM
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463. It looked like an early Atari game, IIRC. There were a series of races, each progressively longer and the opponent faster. It was hard to lose, probably to keep the exercisor motivated.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 3:50 PM
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Not this one
http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/18/wii-rowing-machine-aims-to-sculpt-abs-achieves-belly-laughs-vi/


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:06 PM
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Not that teo would sign up for yoga just to meet chix, but man oh man, can I tell you how obvious it is when that's why a guy is there?

How obvious is it?

I have been thinking of attending yoga classes NOT FOR THIS PURPOSE honestly.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:07 PM
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450: running is easier on your knees if you land on your forefoot and let your calf muscle absorb the shock. Seated, try banging your heel against the floor. Then try banging the top of your foot.

Not that you asked my advice, but I used to have knee problems when I landed on my heels - now I don't. If you like running, it's worth considering.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:08 PM
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How obvious is it?

We ran into a dude on the street who attends Blume's yoga class and I could tell instantly, without speaking to him or ever attending the class.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:10 PM
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I've gone to yoga without intending to meet chix - and in fact not meeting any.

What accounts for the existence of male yoga instructors in your universe?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:14 PM
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Who are you talking to, text?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:15 PM
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I'm shouting at everyone who passes by.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:16 PM
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What accounts for the existence of male yoga instructors in your universe?

First choice on the hot chicks!


Posted by: Lars the Yoga Instructor | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:16 PM
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471: ahh.

Anyhow I didn't mean to imply that all, or even most, or even some, dudes who go to yoga do it to meet chicks. Just that this one particular dude clearly does, and it was surprisingly immediately visible on his face when he saw Blume and I walking towards him.

Like, I got this very strong vibe of "oh hey, it's her from yoga but shit who is that goddamit I go to these classes all the time and nothing what am I doing wrong I'm so terribly lonely" as we passed each other.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:20 PM
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473.last cont'd: enough so that I shot him a dirty look before I realized Blume knew him.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:21 PM
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"oh hey, it's her from yoga but shit who is that goddamit I go to these classes all the time and nothing what am I doing wrong I'm so terribly lonely"

It's kind of amazing that, back on the veldt, guys like this managed to reproduce frequently enough to maintain the defective phenotype.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:24 PM
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474: You shoot dirty looks at random people on the street?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:25 PM
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I think I'd find it totally awkward to try to meet women at a yoga class -- I mean, sure, women are there, but not to meet men. What are you going to say, "Hi my name's text, my ass was probably in your face a few minutes ago, sorry about all the sweat, why don't a buy you a milkshake?"

And then Tweety comes and gives me a dirty look. That's not what I want my day to be about.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:26 PM
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476: not usually! His expression was just so weird and downcast and creepy.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:30 PM
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And I mean I felt sort of bad about it when I realized they knew each other. But that's not the point of the story!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:32 PM
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And then Tweety comes and gives me a dirty look.

I promise I wouldn't.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:32 PM
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Even when I'm having milkshakes with your girlfriend?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:33 PM
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I don't have a girlfriend, so no worries there.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:35 PM
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I imagine Tweety giving text the look Forrest Gump gives the DFH as Jenny boards the bus back to Berkeley. Lying Johnson indeed.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:36 PM
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I would describe the look as initially neutral shading into "uh, deputy dawg, there are two of us here". For your mental picture-making.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:38 PM
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"oh hey, it's her from yoga but shit who is that goddamit I go to these classes all the time and nothing what am I doing wrong I'm so terribly lonely I bet he can't even do triangle pose"


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:43 PM
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Can too! (I just checked.)


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:45 PM
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And on that note, I'm going to go try not to die running in this godawful heat.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:47 PM
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How hard can that be?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:51 PM
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Guy from Yoga Class: "Oh, hey, there's what's her name from the Yoga class and some dude . . . whoa, slow down there, protecto, you're not a she-bear guarding a grizzly cub."


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:54 PM
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488: very


Posted by: opinionated sylvia plath | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 4:55 PM
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After walking the dogs 5 miles in 1 1/2 hours, I mowed, edged, weeded, seeded, and trimmed front and back from 1-4 this afternoon. Course, nowhere near hot yet here in Dallas, only low 90s with 60+ dewpoint. Hotter in the sun.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 5:05 PM
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...Of course greens have protein, rubisco is a protein, rubisco is vital to photosynthesis. It's not protein that humans are particularly limited by, but the synthesis of specific vitamins and amino acids. I think the ruminants have a wider collection of gut flora to do that for them.

I'm too lazy to Google it, but in my microb-eco class a few years ago one of the new! results was that different people have gut flora of distinctly different metabolic efficiencies. IIRC, eating a diet with excess calories seems to breed inefficient flora, leaving you more calories, and v.v. It took, oh, six months for the effect? maybe that was in mice, but I think they've checked the result in humans.

I find that exercise still affects me mostly as one would like, at forty-one (I break more easily); but I am just close enough to 'real' labor that it doesn't surprise me that three solid sweaty hours a week don't do much. If three solid sweaty hours were enough to make one lose weight on a tolerably interesting diet, then the actual workers in the fields would be dead in a month. Housework for a small family took more than three hours' effort not three generations ago.

If any of you want a no-free-will exercise plan, you could help me augur instrumentation holes in claypan next month. We're only going 5m down, and my site is on the coast of California. Very pretty.

... On dancing, which is my favorite form of exercise; I would say that, in social dance circles, it's perfectly okay to be there to pull as long as you remember that you pull by being a good dancer, which there are several ways to be; and the basic way to be good to dance with is to know what you like and pay attention to what your partner likes, and keep the beat. Only the beat is additional to the requirements of any sane flirting environment.

OTOH, all the places I dance are unusually enthusiastic about not enforcing gender roles, or at least assigning people to them semi-randomly, which helps a lot with some of the wierd dynamics. Just last night we spent an hour on Dancing with People Not At All Your Size, preparatory to How to Give Away the Lead, by the end of which everyone had waltzed with everyone. And there are continents'-worth of dances that don't have paired-up gender stuff at all; you just go and bound about and then you happen to have met people, who are now hungry.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 5:28 PM
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Just last night we spent an hour on Dancing with People Not At All Your Size, preparatory to How to Give Away the Lead, by the end of which everyone had waltzed with everyone.

That sounds really great. I'd need to get back into yoga for a while first before I'd feel comfortable trying for grace on the dance floor. This might be a worthwhile goal!

477: I think I'd find it totally awkward to try to meet women at a yoga class -- I mean, sure, women are there, but not to meet men.

Definitely. The yoga class I stuck with the longest (a year and a half?) was held in the instructor's home, and it wasn't *completely* unheard of for someone to fart during a pose -- which was ignored or got a good natured smile on occasion -- or for someone to fall asleep and snore during the closing guided meditation, or for someone to cry (quietly) during the opening guided meditation that was designed to help us let go. This was a particular kind of yoga, though, slow and deliberate, not intended to make you sweat.

You might make friends in a class like that, but hitting on people would just have been weird.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 5:43 PM
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I didn't die!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:07 PM
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Yay, Sifu!

OO another long-dead comment; I have a problem with the 'no grains in the paleo diet' reasoning. We have to have been really fascinated with the grains that existed to have invented agriculture. It's hard enough to come up with a story for that without assuming that paleohumans weren't gathering large enough quantities of grains that they dropped some in predictable places. So, maybe we should be eating mostly teff and amaranth and oats, but still, grains.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:10 PM
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Yeah, we've discussed the paleolithic diet before. It's pretty silly.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:16 PM
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How hard can that be?

If you're talking about triangle pose, hard enough that I'd bet you can't get anywhere near this far.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:17 PM
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Now that we're on nutrition, another thing my psychiatrist wants me to do is start taking vitamins. I bought some multivitamins, but I haven't started taking them yet, partly because I realized afterward that I'd gotten the ones with iron. (Is that okay? I know iron can be dangerous at high doses, and I'm definitely not suffering from any deficiency of it. Googling has been somewhat inconclusive but doesn't seem to suggest that it's a huge risk.) Any thoughts on vitamins?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:19 PM
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As long as you're taking the recommended dose, I imagine you'll be fine, although you might grow breasts.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:24 PM
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If you're menstruating regularly, it's easy to be iron-deficient. Do you lose blood regularly, Teo?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:24 PM
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If you're like me, and I think many others, the exercise program will be hard to stick to unless there is a larger structure or focal event in the future.

Yeah, this is the sort thing I'm concerned about. I've noticed this tendency in other parts of my life, and I see no reason to think exercise will be any different. From that perspective, having specific goals or doing something that involves other people would be ways of adding outside pressure to make sure I actually do it.

On the other hand, and this is where this all gets so difficult, one of the biggest psychological barriers I have to starting any sort of exercise is self-consciousness. I think a lot of it just comes down to being uncomfortable with other people seeing me do something that I'm just beginning at. So from that perspective, something like just getting a kettlebell or whatever and working out with it at home is appealing.

So yeah, I go back and forth between these two concerns and I don't know quite where I'll end up.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:27 PM
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Do you lose blood regularly, Teo?

Not that I know of.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:27 PM
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I think a lot of it just comes down to being uncomfortable with other people seeing me do something that I'm just beginning at.

One of the big realizations that helped me start running was that, if you look at them long enough, pretty much everybody looks stupid running. So you'll blend in!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:28 PM
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I ran outside today. Since we're keeping tabs.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:30 PM
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pretty much everybody looks stupid running

Yeah, except all the effing ex-international athletes in my family. The bastards.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:36 PM
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I looked really smart, though.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:37 PM
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505: there are definitely outliers. But happily, they usually blow past me quickly enough that I hardly have time to resent them.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:38 PM
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One of the big realizations that helped me start running was that, if you look at them long enough, pretty much everybody looks stupid running. So you'll blend in!

But not everyone who sees someone running is running.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:39 PM
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I hardly have time to resent them.

They're not your kid brother, though. I've had his whole life to resent him.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:39 PM
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508: no, true. But do you generally look at runners and think "man, you look like an idiot"? I'm guessing no. And yet, they do. Try it, you'll realize soon enough that you're basically invisible.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:41 PM
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The problem is that running is embarrassing? I never thought to be embarrassed. I thought running was about lording your virtuosity over everyone else.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:42 PM
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Try it, you'll realize soon enough that you're basically invisible.

Yeah. I keep trying to hit that sweet spot of having some sense of perspective without, you know, really having a sense of perspective: it's trintragulation.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:43 PM
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I never thought to be embarrassed.

You know, heebie, in some ways you and I are very different people.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:43 PM
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Not that I know of.

Sorry, the answer we were looking for was, "Yes, but not my own."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:44 PM
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511: that doesn't really work when you're fat, pathetic, slow, and look like you're about to collapse.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:44 PM
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Actually there's one stretch on my path where you go through a river-front beach that is packed already with nearly naked people drinking beer and barbecuing. Seriously packed. Sometimes I do feel like someone sees me and is like, "Doncha know that drinking a beer is way better than running in this heat?"


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:45 PM
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You know, heebie, in some ways you and I are very different people.

Is this about the menstruation?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:45 PM
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Is this about the menstruation?

Not just that. But yes.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:46 PM
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There's also the ovulation.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:47 PM
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I don't take a multi-vitamin either. Does that help?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:47 PM
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I think a lot of it just comes down to being uncomfortable with other people seeing me do something that I'm just beginning at.

Yeah, this is big barrier. First you want to find a kind of exercise that you just enjoy; then you want to find a place you don't feel self-conscious doing it. To start.

I had a significant back blow-out several years ago that resulted in all kinds of things, among them starting carefully moving again in any kind of rigorous way in a physical therapy environment. The coolest thing about the environment was that there was no pressure whatsoever: people weren't observing one other, everybody was in various stages of getting going (again), they were in a variety of shapes and sizes and ages, and clothing, and they chatted amiably. I can't tell how awesome that was.

So, seeking the no-pressure thing, I found a place to walk -- power walking (goony, I know) --on a path around a lake, 1.3 miles per circuit, which place was populated by people from every walk of life, from hard-core roller-bladers to just people strolling after work. Excellent! Nobody stared at all! People mostly smiled.

Anyway, if the felt public eye is an issue, I'd say don't fight that resistance. I'd never stay with it, myself. Unless! you can find one of these fabulous places like the lake 'round which people variously walk, stroll, break into a jog then a run before they slow down and walk again, veer off onto the grass to do a little yoga or or pushups or whatever, then resume walking again .... That's pretty terrific. Everybody's all, like, exercising together and being mellow about it! Heh.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 6:55 PM
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My, I keep writing these long things that are grammatically and tonally weird. Sorry. The thread must have hit a nerve.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:00 PM
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Unless! you can find one of these fabulous places

Huh! That does sound really great. Maybe I should stop working out at Equinox.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:06 PM
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If you're talking about triangle pose, hard enough that I'd bet you can't get anywhere near this far.

Close!

And I meant not dying running in that heat. A simple solution: don't run.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:07 PM
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Another of my psychological barriers to any sort of exercise, which I realize is extremely silly, is that I'd have to buy some new clothes. I don't own anything that I could plausibly work out in.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:07 PM
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The most accepting place I've ever worked out is prison. Really great motivation, and everybody's just totally focused on working together.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:08 PM
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525: totally.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:09 PM
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I knew neb would understand.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:10 PM
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525: you don't have shorts and a t-shirt?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:11 PM
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I have bike shorts, but no other shorts. (Yes, I know you asked teo.) I have old jeans that could become shorts, I guess. I also lack appropriate shoes.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:12 PM
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Although actually I went through that, too. Then I bought some shorts for $5.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:12 PM
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teofilo: Dance Dance Revolution??


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:14 PM
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No special clothes are needed for the suggested path from 367.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:16 PM
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I have some t-shirts, but they're not the sort that I'd really want to work out in. I'd rather keep them nice. I don't have any shorts. I'd also need shoes.

And yeah, I know that this is a trivially easy problem to fix. Nevertheless, there it is.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:18 PM
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533: I am aware.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:18 PM
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532: Oh hell no.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:18 PM
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Neither Teo nor Neb have shorts? I can understand how not having equipment is an impediment to an activity, and generally not having momentum to acquire it. But shorts?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:20 PM
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I tried working out in, like, workout shorts, but they were incredibly uncomfortable. I just use loose, lightweight shorts of the normal kind with pockets. Or even a swimsuit.

And t-shirts from tjhe thrift store.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:20 PM
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I have some t-shirts, but they're not the sort that I'd really want to work out in.

Plain white undershirt?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:20 PM
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513 to 537.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:21 PM
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Maybe we should bring you some sneakers at the meetup, teo.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:21 PM
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Owning shorts has nothing to do with menstruation.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:22 PM
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I have some undershirts, but I'm not going to wear them without anything over them in public. I mean, seriously.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:22 PM
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I don't mean tank top undershirts, but you wouldn't wear a crew-neck basic tee out to exercise in?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:23 PM
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I knew a guy in California who had to go out shopping before accepting a job at a bar because they required employees to wear closed shoes (like, not flip-flops) and he didn't own any.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:23 PM
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I've never owned any plain white undershirts. Had to get some from the thrift store that were rattier than what I normall get there.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:23 PM
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Sure, if we can get these doofuses to a thrift store, they could be well-equipped - shirt, shorts, shoes - for under $10.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:25 PM
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one of the biggest psychological barriers I have to starting any sort of exercise is self-consciousness

I remember this from when I started lifting. Lifting was the first thing I've ever done that I wasn't good at naturally. Normally, once I've tried enough to find out I'm not naturally good at something, I stop that shit right away. I was so awkward and embarrassed.

I got lucky with my trainer, who somehow managed to praise me relentlessly without sounding patronizing. I swear, those first three months, I was living from praise to praise and she kept them coming. I wanted SO BAD to tell everyone I was once good at other sports. Did they want to play catch? Because then they'd see.

On the other side, years later, it is easy to say 'there's a learning curve and everyone flails at first', but I remember that it was embarrassing at the time. Once the newcomers start looking us in the eye instead of avoiding eye contact, we'll tell them how we started out or praise something that they did well (simply coming back is an accomplishment). At the time, though, I think the only thing is to hope that the beginner gets enough out of it to want to come back.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:27 PM
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I don't mean tank top undershirts, but you wouldn't wear a crew-neck basic tee out to exercise in?

I suppose I could. Looking at some of my undershirts now, they're not really as flimsy as I generally think of them as being.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:31 PM
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Excellent! Now. Where do you keep your assless chaps?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:39 PM
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I just bought athletic shorts and regular shorts a couple of days ago.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:42 PM
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Where do you keep your assless chaps?

In the chaps drawer, next to the regular ones.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:44 PM
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523: Huh! That does sound really great. Maybe I should stop working out at Equinox.

I'm not familiar with Equinox. I ended up combining lake-walking with the physical therapy gym, for resistance training that was just easier to do in a gym than on my own.

Isn't the .. is it the Esplanade? in Boston kind of like the 'round-the-lake environment I've tried to describe? That's a hike for those on the Cambridge side of the river, and it's been a while, but there's a Cambridge side of it on the Charles, isn't there? Still might be too far away. Man, it's been a long time since I've been in Boston.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:44 PM
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All chaps are assless.

(ATM)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:44 PM
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Most of my run is along the Charles.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 7:54 PM
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Maybe Blume would like walking/running/strolling/whatnot along the Charles. Do people break off to do yoga or stomach crunches and stuff like that? Is it all pretty people?

You guys who are having trouble with your accoutrements, I understand, but: I started out at the physical therapy gym wearing some of my dad's old white v-necked undershirt t-shirts. I've always favored them, though I realize people think I'm wearing my dad's old v-necked undershirts. Whatever; they're comfortable, and can be washed and washed again. They can worn while power walking as well. I create my own style, baby.

You do have to get footwear, though. It will make you happy to do so.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:08 PM
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If I ran, I would run along the Mon, which is a less storied river, but much more useful if utility is measured in terms of freight tonnage shipped.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:08 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:10 PM
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Blume was joking about Equinox, parsimon. She goes to a nice, friendly, egalitarian gym.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:13 PM
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559: Oh. I didn't really know what Equinox was.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:18 PM
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egalitarian gym.

You are only allowed to become more fit if everyone also becomes that much more fit.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:29 PM
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From each according to their time and energy, to each according to their variation from the mean.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:32 PM
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If You're An Egalitarian, How Come You're So Attractive?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:38 PM
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563: Genes.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 8:40 PM
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Namely Simmons and Wilder.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-26-10 9:08 PM
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If you feele mbarassed about jogging on your own, why not try it with a group of people? There are these guys, harriers or something that go jog and then for drinks afterwards. Sounds ideal!


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 12:06 AM
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First you want to find a kind of exercise that you just enjoy; then you want to find a place you don't feel self-conscious doing it.

The trick is to go running after dark. No one can see you. Plus it's scary so you're motivated to run faster and not stop to catch your breath.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 2:44 AM
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477
I think I'd find it totally awkward to try to meet women at a yoga class -- I mean, sure, women are there, but not to meet men.

I've never done it, but I can imagine doing it just because it's a low-pressure social event where a medium-sized group of people, including more women than not, meet regularly. Any body image or awkwardness issues aside, that alone makes it better for meeting women than 90 percent of activities.

493
You might make friends in a class like that, but hitting on people would just have been weird.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, sure, "nice guys" suck, but my current girlfriend and I were just friends for a year before one thing led to another. (And come to think of it, for better or for worse, I could say the same about three quarters of my long-term relationships.)

511
The problem is that running is embarrassing? I never thought to be embarrassed.

It's a mix of fear of looking like a slob in public - sweaty shirt and ratty t-shirt and all that - and looking like an out-of-shape novice runner who doesn't know what he's doing. Or if I avoid looking like a slob by getting out spandex and a camelback, looking like some gung-ho douchebag. More generally, being self-conscious about how I might look while doing something unfamiliar and difficult in public.

And in a small town where almost everyone knows me, it would be worse. It was too easy to imagine running into some co-worker or friend of the family when I'm only a mile from home and them seeing me all plodding and wheezing and wondering just how much of a loser I am if such a brief workout was so hard. (Like I said upthread, now that I write it down I realize it's crazy, but...)


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 7:16 AM
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My strategy is to attempt to project an air of somebody who is running 20 miles minimum (could be 30! or more!), and thus needs to conserve his no-doubt copious strength and endurance for the remaining mile or so.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 7:30 AM
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570

Clearly, you are far more skilled at projecting nuanced airs than I am.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 7:41 AM
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571

The nice thing is that only one person needs to believe that I'm doing it successfully.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 7:42 AM
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572

Cyrus et al worried about being caught wheezing: run a hill. Then you can walk back down and do it again. And again. And again. At some point you might puke if you're lucky.

Seriously, for a lot of people running short distances at high speed is better than plodding for an hour. You'll work more range of movement and develop more muscle which will both have more impact on your life than focusing solely on aerobic fitness. Also, you're expected to be gassed by the time you reach the top of a hill.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 8:10 AM
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573

Also, you're expected to be gassed by the time you reach the top of a hill.

Fine. Go ignore me. But when everybody starts using mustard gas to settle traffic disputes, don't say I didn't warn you.


Posted by: Opinionated Geneva Protocol of 1925 | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 8:13 AM
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574

Valleys are the first to fill with gas. This is just an incentive to get up the hill.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 8:22 AM
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575

574: If I only could!


Posted by: Opinionated Kate Bush | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 8:25 AM
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576

536: I meant the one you play privately at home where no-one can see you or, in fact, know you posses it. Still no?


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 9:14 AM
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572
Cyrus et al worried about being caught wheezing: run a hill. Then you can walk back down and do it again. And again. And again. At some point you might puke if you're lucky.

Forgive me for being overly negative, especially since I can tell you're all trying to help, but this sounds miserable.

I don't really know why you people have the idea that help is needed anyway. I did say that my past attitude towards running outdoors doesn't apply so much where I live now, and more importantly that I realize it's crazy, right?

This discussion prompted me to map out a route through my neighborhood on Google Maps to see if I could make a good jogging route. I think I found something I could handle... but even if I started jogging it tomorrow morning, which I won't because I have other stuff going on through Tuesday, I'm moving out of this neighborhood in two months, so why bother?

The problem isn't time or expense or monotony or self-consciousness. Those are problems, but the problem is I don't find exercise fun. Good for me, of course, but a chore is a chore, best helped by making it as convenient and hard to avoid as possible.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 9:21 AM
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578

Cyrus, I'm not telling you to run, indoors or out, because god knows I never would. I can see how exercise would be a chore if you aren't getting the high afterwards. For me, at least, there's a warm floaty feeling after a session as intense as hill repeats, and a general feeling that all's right with the world. People who are willing to do that shit are getting more out of it than puking.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 9:26 AM
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579

As other people have said, making exercise fun is, a lot of the time, about finding the right form of exercise for you.

I'm incredibly lazy, and the only reason I do the 3 or 4 hours of exercise a week [not including walking] that I do is because I find the activity itself fun. I'm having fun while I'm doing it rather than seeking some sort of post-exercise endorphin rush.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 9:30 AM
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580

I used to fucking hate running. I found it the most boring activity possible, and couldn't figure out why, when running, you wouldn't just stop, and end the crappiness. Then I discovered that (1) it was a really good opportunity to listen to music intensely, (2) the pop-autistic side of my personality really enjoyed counting strides leading and (3) that the combination of music and counting provided a really good meditative basis to let my mind wander around other subjects in a useful way.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 9:32 AM
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581

"leading and to (3) that"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 9:37 AM
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I only ran regularly for about a year or so. I quite enjoyed it, and for the same sort of meditative reasons as you, and also because sometimes it's just nice to be outside and moving. But even at the time -- 50lbs lighter, and really fit -- I picked up niggling injuries far too often for it to be a long-term fitness pursuit.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 9:41 AM
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I haven't really had problems with injuries. My knees hurt a bit here and there, my hip flexor hurt for a while (but I fixed that by raising my desk, so I'm not sure it can really be blamed on running), and there was a period where I had a weird thing in my calves that I thought might be shin splints, but nothing that I couldn't run through, and nothing that hasn't gone away. Maybe I'm just taking it particularly easy, because I'm sure as shit not particularly thin or fit.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:02 AM
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584

You'll know if you have bad shin splints. I get very mild shin splints from kickboxing [more from the cardio drills than from the sport], which is perfectly tolerable. When I ran I had bad shin splints, which is shitty.

The pain will usually be on the inside of the lower leg at the front [i.e. along the flat surface of the tibia].

Calf pain is more likely to be compartment syndrome or something like that.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:08 AM
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585

Sifu's (1) through (3) get it right, but I'll note that a person doesn't have to run to enjoy these benefits -- walking (preferably fast, maybe varying the pace) works as well, and will probably avoid the niggling injuries ttaM alludes to.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:09 AM
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Calf pain is more likely to be compartment syndrome or something like that.

So I wondered, but like I said, I started running a bit less (I was doing every day for a while at the start) and it went away.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:12 AM
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587

I don't know about 585. My benefits from the cardiovascular exercise are in the absence of lethargy from my daily life, which is definitely a noticeable change. And this really only comes with the sort of excercise that gets the heart rate up.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:14 AM
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579 - Right, but Cyrus was objecting to hill repeats, and I have to think that the endorphin rush is the only redeeming part of hill repeats. Of course I think other sports are fun of themselves, and wish that everyone were well-paired with a sport.

I've never gotten to the point where running is meditative, but get that feeling right away from lap swimming. I have tentatively begun to consider the possibility that people are different. But I don't want to rush to a conclusion on that.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:24 AM
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I found it the most boring activity possible, and couldn't figure out why, when running, you wouldn't just stop, and end the crappiness.

That's part of the reason I run on a treadmill when I'm running rather than outdoors -- I kind of fundamentally hate it too, and the self-control required not to hit the 'stop' button is less than the self-control required not to simply stop running. This bike commute (while clearly not as intense as running) is the only sustained cardio exercise I ever recall enjoying.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:34 AM
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I could get into hill repeats, if there was a big hill nearby. Every now and then I've done it when it's been convenient. Especially because the workout could be abbreviated. I'm all for efficient workouts.

Now and then when I've been trying to get in better shape, I've incorporated sprints into my jogging routine. (That does make me look idiotic, most definitely.) Since it's for soccer, I try to jog in between sprints, but I hate trying to jog when I'm gasping for breath, so I hate the sprinting intervals altogether. If I walked in between sprints, I wouldn't mind nearly so much.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:35 AM
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591

I'm pretty sure that *children* are different. That may have a bearing on their adult similarities or differences.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:37 AM
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587: Yeah; I've never paid close attention to my heart rate while power walking. It certainly doesn't get up to pounding level, but then I wasn't looking for that. A sustained hour of very fast walking (of the sort that makes you feel it in your legs and glutes, especially when you lengthen your stride, and makes you sweat) served my purposes, and did make me, anyway, shed any daily lethargy. An endurance thing, with sustained elevated heart rate.

I'm really only making a case for walking because I can't run -- bad back, so anything high-impact is ruled out.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:41 AM
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593

Now and then when I've been trying to get in better shape, I've incorporated sprints into my jogging routine. (That does make me look idiotic, most definitely.) Since it's for soccer, I try to jog in between sprints, but I hate trying to jog when I'm gasping for breath, so I hate the sprinting intervals altogether. If I walked in between sprints, I wouldn't mind nearly so much.

Fartleks!

I do this, but I will do the intervals as: jog, sprint, walk. More exactly, if I'm running and I want to walk for a while, I'll make myself sprint briefly (40 paces) before I allow myself to walk (for 100 paces), and then I'll jog again (360 paces). I found myself getting (seemingly) faster remarkably quickly.

589: see, I'm just the opposite. Running on a treadmill still bores me to tears. I'd rather be actually covering ground, and my route now is long enough that it's annoying to walk the whole thing, so I'll want to jog just to get back home in a reasonable amount of time.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:42 AM
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594

Running on a treadmill still bores me to tears.

Me too.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:46 AM
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re: 592

I used to wear a heart monitor while 'power walking'. I found it pretty hard to get the pulse up to the higher end of the cardio zone [say, 80% of MHR]. There were a few stretches on the walk I used to do -- up a steep hill, in the woods -- where it got genuinely up there. But walking flat out over fairly rough terrain I could keep it well inside the 60-70% range.

I haven't done it for a while -- I switched to it for injury reasons, but have been doing different things recently -- but when I did it regularly my resting heart rate dropped by quite a bit, so [anecdotally], a decent bout of fast walking does the job.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 10:53 AM
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when I did it regularly my resting heart rate dropped by quite a bit, so [anecdotally], a decent bout of fast walking does the job.

Yay! That's how it seemed to me as well.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 11:16 AM
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597

Apparently there is a Fartlek Hill on the Quantico Marine Base.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 12:26 PM
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598

Apparently there is a Fartlek Hill on the Quantico Marine Base.

Boyhowdy is there ever. And I can attest from personal experience that it is quite a good way to get in shape quickly. It also helps to be singing cadence while jogging.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 3:18 PM
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Apparently there is a Fartlek Hill on the Quantico Marine Base.

Bowhowdy is there ever. I will attest to the effectiveness of Fartleks training during my not so brief stay there. Also singing cadence while jogging helps with pace and wind.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 3:21 PM
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600

It also helps to be singing cadence while jogging.

I didn't know that.
But now I've been told.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 3:23 PM
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601

Something weird in the comments. Where is the kitten?


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 3:24 PM
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602

600 + 601 = the worst jody call ever.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 3:27 PM
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603

Miinaanbaashkiminisijiganbitooyinsijiganibukwayszhiigan

If I ever found a town, that is what I will name it. In Minnesota.

And the diner will always serve blueberry pie. Including for breakfast.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 3:33 PM
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604

602. Substitute pussy for kitten and go from there.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 3:34 PM
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605

Wait a minute! This isn't the right thread at all.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 3:34 PM
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606

604: DAMMIT, I KEEP GETTING THAT ONE BACKWARDS.


Posted by: OPINIONATED CLAUDE BOLLS | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 4:29 PM
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607

Oh, Claude, you old jokester. You know your kittens love you.


Posted by: OPINIONATED ANN MARGARET | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 4:37 PM
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608

Why didn't Claude Bolls just say that. Why does he have to be opinionated and shout at me? There are good occasions for visitors to be opinionated, but maybe some of them could just drop by and quietly speak their mind.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 4:38 PM
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609

YOU TRY QUIETLY SPEAKING YOUR MIND WITH A KITTEN HANGING FROM YOUR SCROTUM.


Posted by: OPINIONATED HUMAN MALE | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 4:40 PM
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610

I was once sleeping when my kitten leaped onto my face, one claw slicing my eyelid; my eye underneath was undamaged. I was struck by how much I did not want to lose an eye to kitten playfulness. I'd be mad about that my entire life.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 4:45 PM
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611

WAKE UP AND FEED ME, YOU STUPID BITCH!


Posted by: OPINIONATED PSYCHO KITTEN | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 4:48 PM
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612

I woke up once when a kitten decided to stop feeling my breath and start patting my tongue. We were both unhappy. I hope I sleep with my mouth shut now.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 5:03 PM
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stop feeling my breath and start patting my tongue

Aww. Kittens. Full-grown cats will pat your lips and your eyelids as well, as you may know. You must try not to reflexively throw them off the bed in a forcible manner, as they know not what they do, and then you feel bad.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 5:25 PM
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614

||

I just learned that, at least in Mexico, the Spanish equivalent to LMAO is MCDLR: "Me cago de la risa"!

|>


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 5:45 PM
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615

Psycho kitten, qu'est-ce que c'est?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 6:01 PM
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616

65: mew mew mew mew mew mew mew mew mew petter


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 6:06 PM
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617

^1


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 6:06 PM
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618

617 is the loneliest comment.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 6:11 PM
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619

||

Wow, there is a seriously big storm coming in here. It sounds like the kind that will render us without power. Thunder, rumble deeply from a long way away. Lightning, smack! Off to get flashlight and candles ready.

|>


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 6:17 PM
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620

||

Otis Redding, ladies and gentlemen!

|>


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-27-10 6:56 PM
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621

I was struck by how much I did not want to lose an eye to kitten playfulness. I'd be mad about that my entire life.

Not even kittens are safe from your eternal rage? Not even cuddly playful kittens???

I mean come on, it's just an eye, not a boyfriend.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 5:46 AM
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622

Honestly, Megan, you're such a grudge holding type.

(More seriously, I find running is fun once you get fit enough to do it regularly, and once you get enough self-hatred to enjoy bouts of excruciating pain. Cycling is much nicer in those ways. but a lot less elegant. (In the sense that there's way more between you and the veldt.))


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 7:47 AM
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623

622: but a lot less elegant. (In the sense that there's way more between you and the veldt.)

I grovel for exercise.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 8:43 AM
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624

623: Stormcrow has a website about his methods:

www.grovelshove.com


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 9:24 AM
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624: Actually in my patented Yardworkoebics* system, one of the most intense exercises is large bush moving, which inevitably gets down to great deal of groveling and shoving.

*When I am doing a significant amount of yard (and home repair) work I do tend to feel pretty good physically. I've come to call it being "handyman fit"; overall it is pretty well-rounded (other than the occasional back torture task) with baseline low intensity activities which use a variety of muscle groups being interspersed with the random power and anaerobic episode. Plus stuff gets done.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 9:47 AM
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626

Yardworkoebics

How about "chorerobics"?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 9:56 AM
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627

626: Yes, better.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 9:58 AM
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627: The next step is filming the infomercial.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:00 AM
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629

one of the most intense exercises is large bush moving

The hardest part is keeping all the bush's low-hanging fruit intact.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:02 AM
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630

TRY MY YARD FENCE PAINTEROBICS! THERE'S NOT MANY PEOPLE GET THE CHANCE TO LOSE WEIGHT THROUGH FENCE PAINTING!


Posted by: Entrepreneurial Tom Sawyer | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:02 AM
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631

My old law firm had a volunteer day once a year that was a great workout -- I cleaned up a community garden in the Bronx and was sore for days. I don't volunteer much, because of the hassle factor, but if there were a well-organized volunteer bureau handing out handyman/yardwork type manual tasks that'd take an hour or two, that'd be a great exercise plan.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:07 AM
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632

631: There's probably crop mobbing going on somewhere near you.

Also.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:21 AM
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633

Oops. Crop mobbing.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:22 AM
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634

Keep trying, young M/tch, you'll get it right one of these times.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:24 AM
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635

Dangit. Let's try that one more time. Crop mobbing.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:25 AM
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636

See, I told you--oops there goes another rubber-tree plant.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:26 AM
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637

oops there goes another rubber-tree plant large bush.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:31 AM
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638

ATM


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:36 AM
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639

in Wisconsin.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:37 AM
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640

CA worked landscaping at Northwestern the summer after we graduated and by the fall he was downright buff.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:37 AM
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641

640: Northwestern is in Chicago, not Wisconsin, dumbass.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:38 AM
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642

641: Northwestern is in Evanston, not Chicago, dumbass.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls Inner Voice | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:39 AM
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642: And you forgot an apostrophe, and anyway you should have said "Illinois" instead of "Chicago" to begin with dumbass.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls' Inner Voice | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:40 AM
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644

Haybucks are usually pretty fit. At least I don't remember seeing any fat ones. Not that I was looking or anything gay like that.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:41 AM
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640: Construction will do that too -- Dr. Oops worked remodeling apartments one summer in college, and was ridiculously buff at the end of it. She looked like a superhero.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:41 AM
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644: That's a shame. You probably could have scored with a fat one.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:45 AM
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647

646. M/tch, I'm the fat one.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:48 AM
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648

647: So, want to come up to my hayloft to see my, um, bales?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:49 AM
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635: "So one day, 19 people went to Piedmont Biofarm"

Aww, this just warms my heart. Piedmont Biofarm is the crunchiest stand at the Durham Farmer's Market, usually staffed by young, wiry guys with dreadlocks and fresh-faced hippie chicks in smocks. That article is right that this area is just crawling with sustainable farms and it seems like more open every year; I guess things like crop mobbing keep it feasible. This has really turned into a great area for eating. This handsome young couple (not from Piedmont BF) are our CSA farmers.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:50 AM
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650

644: Haybuck, haybuck.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:52 AM
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651

fresh-faced hippie chicks in smocks

We called them "market Betties". Blue Heron Farms was just shameless about staffing their stand with hotties. My guy friends were just shameless about buying from them.

I was above all that and never even noticed the smoking hot hummus vendor. I certainly didn't ask for free tastes many weeks in a row.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 10:55 AM
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652

So, want to come up to my kitchen and watch how I handle chickpeas?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 11:05 AM
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653

Kind of creepy to bring up chick pea so early in the seduction process.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 11:14 AM
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654

I certainly didn't ask for free tastes many weeks in a row.

Of hummus or of vendor?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 11:17 AM
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655

655: He haz a flavor!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 11:18 AM
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656

Buck has a crush on all the cute girls from Hawthorne Valley Farm at our farmer's market; he brings them homebrew and flirts with them. Of course, he also brought homebrew for the crusty middleaged guy who sold honey until he started going to the chichi downtown farmers market, so it's not just about the cute girls.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 11:29 AM
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656: Hmmm. Is Buck overweight, perchance? Just asking.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 11:40 AM
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658

620

here is my favorite tribute to otis redding that sounds nothing like otis redding (plus trucks):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ypUi0bg3A

they had it on pac bell commercials about 10 years ago.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 11:45 AM
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659

Don't know if this made the thread, but a study published in Nature about what running (at a pretty significant level/frequency) does to your metabolism:

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2010/05/the-metabolic-secrets-of-good-runners.html


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 11:56 AM
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660

Since this appears to be the thread where we mention attempts at being not lazy, I'll add that today I walked home from the office. It took only fifty minutes (13 less than Google said it would take and I took a long-cut to avoid having to cross a busy street), but boy was I a sweaty mess when I got home. Also, I learned that walking over high bridges makes me dizzy unless I stare at the ground a few feet in front of me.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-28-10 7:36 PM
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