I don't know how anyone puts up with meetings. It's like a cult devoted to embarrassment-squick torture and awful writing.
Those plates are beautiful. Destroying those is really an evil thing to do.
Is your sister your step-dad's daughter? That's amazing about the ashes at the funeral. My sympathies. It is, however, reassuring to know that there are people with craziness in their backgrounds who have managed to lead good and fairly successful, ordinary lives.
yes, my sister is my step-dad's daughter. she is the head of the "bad dad" club.
good and fairly successful, ordinary lives.
yeah, about that, actually...naw, I have a very good life.
1: Some people prefer them to living a life like Alameida's step-father's.
word. he's like cautionary example A. my maternal grandmother died of late stage alcoholism, and that sucked also. her liver failing, she could only drink lesser and lesser amounts, sipping warm beer (which she had always loathed) throughout the day, until she sank into a fatal coma. not fun.
Was there a chance to save any of the pieces? If so, they can be restored -- there have been a lot of advances with epoxy resins in recent years.
nah, she kicked'em into a ravine. stone. cold. bitch.
good night everyone, I'm going to sleep!
Oh man. I wanted to chat about alcoholism w/ya.
I will relay an anecdote from Albion's Seed which I recently read, concerning a particular stormy marriage in Virginia in the 18th century.
For years, this unhappy couple refused to speak to one another, communicating only through their slaves. Long silences were punctuated by outbursts of rage so wild and violent as to border upon madness. After one such tempest, Col. Custis surprised his lady by inviting her to go driving with him. They rode in sullen silence through the Virginia countryside, until suddenly the colonel turned his carriage out of the road, and drove straight into Chesapeake Bay."Where are you going, Mr. Custis?" the lady asked, as the horses begain to swim.
"To hell, Madam," he replied.
"Drive on," said she, "any place is better than Arlington."
10: That's the greatest story ever. What happened?
Well, on the one hand, there's a lot of great art and literature that comes out of that kind of pain and fucked-upedness. I dunno if that can justify all the little kids who are crying themselves to sleep tonight. Actually, I do and it can't. But we're stuck with the flies and the tail to sweep them away with for the moment.
I recently attended a gathering including the widow of an acquaintance who died very young, very recently. She seemed to be holding up pretty well, but there was definitely a cast of I've-been-crying-every-day-for-weeks about her face. I don't suppose that compares to the pain of say, losing a child, but damn, to be in your mid-20s, right at the beginning of a new chapter in your life and have the book yanked out of your hands like that. Must really suck. Thankfully, this woman has friends and family who are really taking care of her, so that's good.
And then we look over the oceans, look over the lands, look over the leaders with the blood on their hands. Abuse of power comes as no surprise.
They survived, but not, you know, indefinitely. In fact, their marriage was so unhappy, he evidently ordered that his gravestone be inscribed with a message of how miserable it was.
Aged 71 years and yet lived but seven years
Which was the space of time he kept A Bachelor's House at Arlington On the Eastern Shore of Virginia. This information put on this tomb was by his own positive order.
I blew the formatting on that one. Oops.
Them Southern fuckers don't play, I'll tell you that.
This story could only get more perfectly Gothically awful if there were a dead mule in it somewhere.
... I don't know what the protocol is if someone confesses to a crime. It must happen a lot. Well, and I mean a real crime, not dealing or theft or something.
See this for a real case.
2: It is, however, reassuring to know that there are people with craziness in their backgrounds who have managed to lead good and fairly successful, ordinary lives.
Quite. It's important to remember that "risk-factor" is not "predestination" in spite of the fog the medical-pharmaceutical complex blows the distinction with their advertising $.
OP: They probably save that for the men's meetings, amirite?
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
That story from the funeral is like something out of Hamlet. It's actually sort of awesome. I mean, it must have been ridiculous at the time and all, but.
There is a museum devoted to my step-dad's great great, who was a Civil War general
I've noticed that an inordinate number of Americans seem to be descended from Civil War generals. Did those guys just really get their freak on, or is this like people who trace their family trees back to really improbable royalty?
1: I don't know how anyone puts up with meetings.
After putting up with full-blown alcoholism, meetings must be a breeze. Relatively speaking.
19: I've noticed that an inordinate number of Americans seem to be descended from Civil War generals.
Lots and lots of Civil War generals there were.
but the nickel summary is
I'm sorry alameida. I am very glad you've gotten out of the spiral.
m, took so doing that did; well done
19: All my Civil War ancestors were enlisted, as far as I know. Same with my WWI, WWII and Vietnam War ancestors. I think you have to go back to the Revolutionary War to find an officer. Of course, it probably helps that not too many generals got killed, and most of those had probably already sired some kids, compared to all the enlisted men who got shot or cannonaded or died of dysentery or gangrene before their 19th birthdays. Plus, people tend to crow about the generals in their family tree a bit more than the supply sergeants.
12: I like what you wrote, Natilo, but I wonder about the need to weigh one kind of bereavement against another, briefly here in evidence. At the risk of lightly beketchupping this thread, would it be important for your acquaintance to know that her loss was terrible but not as terrible as if she had lost a child? The subtext seems to be this hard-to-escape one that people without children aren't living full lives.
I'm not trolling (I hope.) Your sympathy for her is evident. My attention just kind of snagged on the caveat.
All the forebears we know about came over well after the Civil War. I don't think I've ever thought about that before.
One side of my family was around in 1860s, but I have no idea if any served. The other side were potato famine Irish who originally landed in Canada and worked their way across the border in 1880s-90s.
I do have a WWII Major in my extended, tho he was a Chaplain. That side is Amish/Mennonite, and I don't know if they were like Quakers in the Civil War?
18: Oh, and I wasn't referring to genetic stuff, just the way that "trauma" (of the chronic kind rather than the single horrific sort that is more likely to lead to PTSD) can mess you up mentally. Even the pharmaceutical companies haven't claimed--yet--that their potions can solve the subtle, mental problems that can lead to big-time functional ones.
I'm glad for him that he's dead, that's reasonably charitable, right?
Indeed. I've been at trainings (in social work) where it was stressed in an Of Course tone of voice that people who attempt suicide don't want to die; they just want to stop hurting. Well, no. They want to stop hurting, and the way they've chosen to do so is to stop being. It is probably often a wrong and avoidable choice and would be a tragedy not to discourage. But (though I'd always err soundly on the side of caution, if I were still in the position of doing clinical work) I think the thought of no longer being is a consolation that can't be casually or universally dismissed. Maybe for your stepfather there was no other consolation and it is, yes, a form of kindness, your sympathy with his choice, if I'm reading you right.
My guess about sponsors hearing about crimes is they'd only be under any obligation to say something if it were about a present threat to someone. And even that would be ethical, surely, and not legal--a sponsor isn't formally a mandated reporter the way a therapist is, I'd guess, due to the peerish and non-institutional nature of AA.
My dad doesn't like the militant aspects of Memorial Day; he commemorates it by visiting the very old cemetery near his house and putting flowers on the graves of long-dead infants and young children, whose names and dates are almost erased from the tiny headstones.
My mom went to "visit" my father today in the veterans cemetery, which is nice and all, but since he didn't in any way, shape, or form create his identity around having been in the military, it doesn't somehow seem an obvious day for a visit. Opening Day of baseball season meant infinitely more to him than Memorial Day.
That story from the funeral is like something out of Hamlet.
And Twin Peaks (see the end of the clip).
And Twin Peaks
My friend from Eastern Kentucky gave me the impression that it's not uncommon for funerals in Appalachia to end with someone throwing himself/herself on the coffin!
22: Sometimes I am too ready to look for the silver lining in every dark cloud I come across. Certainly, it's not necessary to compare family tragedies like that. And I don't think that the childless are living substandard lives in any way. More that I hope that, given how awful her pain must be right now, she will have a better chance of coming to acceptance after the first shock and mourning has passed, than if it were a kid she'd lost. She really seemed like a cool person, I had never met her before, since her husband and I were only work-friends, and that a long time ago. So it was a little weird to intrude on her grief and the grief of our mutual friends like that. (I was invited to the party at the last minute, and didn't find out that she would be there until I arrived. But, as I said, she was doing as well as you could expect, and it really did seem to help her to be with people who knew and loved her husband.)
More that I hope that, given how awful her pain must be right now, she will have a better chance of coming to acceptance after the first shock and mourning has passed, than if it were a kid she'd lost.
Internet punching bag Ayelet Waldman wrote a piece about how the death of her children would indescribably horrible, but survivable, while the death of her husband would not, she thought, be survivable.
Huh. That's not how I would figure it, I guess.
I think one of the factors in how I've processed his death is that the last time I had heard anything about him was a friend mentioning that he'd just been married, with some incredulity, as he was the very definition of a free spirit. So to go from "Hey, did you hear X got married?" to "X just died" kinda focused my attention on his widow. It's a hard life.
Now I feel like I should have shared less of my thoughts about grieving and stuff and just commended his life to everyone's attention. He was an awfully nice fellow, friendly and solicitous even to people like me with whom he had little in common. This is why I don't want to get old. Thinking about the process of missing friend after friend, never getting the chance for reconnection just drags me down.
I sure wish the circle would be unbroken, but unfortunately I don't think we're that lucky.
Did those guys just really get their freak on, or is this like people who trace their family trees back to really improbable royalty?
I saw a geneticist talking about this on TV a while back. Someone was bragging about having Edward II for an ancestor, and the geneticist pointed out that about 1 in 3 people in the UK have Edward the II as their ancestor.
When you get that sort of geometric progression into the past - 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great, etc - it's not long before you ancestral tree contains a number larger than the entire population of Britain at that time.
The geneticist pointed out that it's not a single line of descent from Edward II that makes Elizabeth II queen, it's that she can trace that line in about 6000 different ways.
32: The weight of our common pop culture influences is solidly behind getting over it and moving on after the death of a spouse/spouse-equivalent,* whereas the range of expected responses to the death of a child seems a bit narrower.**
* I leave it to the commentariat to propose reasons therefor. E.g., the irreparably broken-hearted don't watch TV, buy stuff for "I Will Survive"-themed parties or book long "me-time" cruises, as prescribed by Oprah?
** I have not seen this firsthand, but the descriptions that I have heard of the emotional state of couples who lost very young children are pretty chilling.
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Just drove to the store and back, 92 with 95 HI which isn't that hot, but I got my Texas summer feeling of "It's scary out here."
Just the light, the bright noonday light with a completely cloudless sky, it's hard to explain.
Visibility ten miles. UV index 12.
And UV 8-10 is considered very high risk of harm. 11+ is extreme risk. So maybe I am sensing the high UV.
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36: * I leave it to the commentariat to propose reasons therefore.
I expect it is because it is commonly understood that a dead spouse should have expected or insisted beforehand that the surviving spouse move on in the event of spousal death. Adults die, etc. People aren't expected to move on after the death of a young child.
m, or it would seem
36: I think it's also about the fact that no matter how much a spouse means to you, you're not understood to be responsible for keeping them alive, whereas parents are. Even though the literal keep-them-from-doing-themselves-in portion of parenting is just the first few years, that sense of responsibility can extend outwards, almost indefinitely. My brother took his life at age 27, and despite all of the rational knowledge that this was a stupid awful choice that he made, my parents (and of course the rest of us to a lesser degree, as one always does with suicides) still had the nagging feeling that they had failed him somehow.
Just drove to the store and back, 92 with 95 HI which isn't that hot
Weather's been fantastic here. 60's and 70's, breezy, decent amount of rain, etc. View yesterday afternoon from the ER driveway at Primary Children's Hospital on the University of Utah campus.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4657446464_b0336174b1_b.jpg
And another from the Moran Eye Center next door.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4656859545_849ba9791b_b.jpg
To tie it in with the rest of the thread, I was up there taking a combative mentally ill 15 year old to the ER for a psych eval.
39: Ninety-eight years old and just finished new work last week.
40: Yes. My sister was 24 and the dynamic was the same.
37/41: Warm spring weather? How nice for you. We've now had exactly twice the average amount of rain for May. It's pissing me off almost as much as hearing people defend Israel on the radio today.
40 et al: I think I'm just weird about this topic anyway. My father is heard to say (strangely often) how terrible it is for a child to die before his/her parents. The phrase "not supposed to" is always in there. It starts to feel like I'm being admonished. It sometimes strikes me that if I'm about to get hit by a truck I am going to have to really quickly write him a little note of apology.
Dear Dad Sorry 4 ded btw TRUCK Kthxbye.
(Flippancy in 45 about my own mishegas. On re-read, in among people's stories of loss, would like to delete.)
We've now had exactly twice the average amount of rain for May.
Heh. It's been pretty cool and rainy (for Utah) in May. Probably same storms you're getting. We had a measurable amount of snow fall on the valley floor on the 22nd, which was a new record. Old record was May 18th or something.
We're supposed to get some thunderstorms here this evening. I can see the storm clouds and hear the thunder, but it hasn't started raining yet.
We'd be having perfectly nice weather here were it not for the fact that Canada is on fire. Stinks up the place something fierce.
Is that Sifu Tweety on the left?
49: Yeah, this summer we didn't rent a house in MA, we rented one in the Eastern Townships of Quebec. Whee!
Sunny and hot all damn day... except for random thunder. Now it's overcast threatening to rain but refusing. Annoying.
m, hot and fucked up
41. The 2nd photo, with the tram, looks European.
49: I was just in Boston last night and the sunset was spectacular. We wondered why, but it must have something to do with the smoke!
I think Alameida should write a book (memoir? fiction? I'm not sure. But something, anyway).
Bob, where in Canada did your people land and/or settle?
Hot here, but clouding over. I'm glad I did my weeding etc. in the morning.
In other news, it turns out that the caterpillar that ate my entire parsley plant when I was away last week is nicknamed...ta da...the parsleyworm!
At least it will make a beautiful butterfly. Assuming it lives after its unceremonious eviction from kitchen to garden.
46: Not to worry. It's a complicated relationship that parent-child thing.
It's pretty nasty here. The sky's the color of poutine.
56: Interesting that it's not tasty to birds. I would think that an herb chew caterpillar would be especially delicious, but what do I know from insectivorousness.
Ah, weather. I had several experiences over the last month of hearing people bitch about their 65-ish degree mildly-windy days with brief rain showers. How awful! How depressing! Bastards. Now I'm back on the right coast where it gets miserably hot and then thunderstorms turn the roads into lakes.
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And now my timesheet is done, and I'm going home. Hooray!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled Weather Channel updates.
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I suppose this is the place to note that, based on that running thread the other day, I braved my first ever attempt at going for a run outside today. I didn't die in the hot-soup air, and, as suggested, probably didn't look any dumber than anyone else.
Woohoo! Welcome to the dorky, dorky fold.
As you get in better shape, you may find it difficult to find the motivation to keep building speed or distance. You can either hire a trainer or start jogging in street clothes with your face covered and carrying a couple of purses.
I would think that an herb chew caterpillar would be especially delicious
Well, most herbs and spices seemed to have evolved their flavors as defense mechanisms, so it'd make sense for an herb-eating caterpillar to taste bad.
I would think that an herb chew caterpillar would be especially delicious
Well, most herbs and spices seemed to have evolved their flavors as defense mechanisms, so it'd make sense for an herb-eating caterpillar to taste bad.
It was in the mid-80s in Sacramento yesterday. I think it might have gotten up to 70 or so here (as in in my neighborhood; there's a lot of local variation in the region).
my step-father was the lone direct patrilineal descendant of said general and shared his name (as did his dad, G-dad etc). (evil kid in narnia books plus name dash commonest ever lastname. you can figure it out if you want.) his dad and grandfather etc. served in the real armyalso, and his mom was a daughter of the confederacy type. his dad was really big on white-glove inspections, followed by terrible beatings. fun extra fact: one of my step-dad's best friends was the infamous lee atwater, who, though in public life was a racist bastard, in private was actually a drunk, coked-up, pervert racist bastard!
55:Bob, where in Canada did your people land and/or settle?
I really don't know the history. I still have very distant relatives in N Michigan, Sault Ste Marie and Traverse City. Some are from my grandmother's side. The only thing I know is they moved to Michigan in the late 19th.
We are looking now for an old letter. To get from Newfoundland to Michigan in 50 years means steady movement.
my step-dad's mom actually subscribed us to southern partisan magazine when I was a kid. ho-lee-shit that's some revisionist crazy there. my step-dad himself, despite all his flaws and insanely racist parents, was not racist. [slow golf clap.]
71.last: To get from Newfoundland to Michigan in 50 years means steady movement.
Bob's ancestors dragged the old house across the ice.
72: Southern Partisan sold the "Sic Semper Tyrannis" T-Shirt with Lincoln's face on it that McVeigh was wearing when he was arrested. Later that year they had to send out the following message:
"Due to a surprising demand for our anti-Lincoln T-shirt, our stock has been reduced to odd sizes. If the enclosed shirt will not suffice, we will be glad to refund your money or immediately ship you another equally militant shirt from our catalog." [emphasis added]
Well, shoot, the letter proves my glorious imaginings all wrong! Not potato famine Irish at all. County Roscommon was right. Kerdue? Keadue? Hand-written letter
We have a deed from the King of England for land in Quebec, halfway between Huntingdon (?) and the Saint Lawrence river. Names that look like Godmanchester township and St Aniset (Anisette) (St Anicet) are also mentioned. Apparently somewhere around 1820-1840, or earlier.
X McManus son X bought 80 acres in Traverse City in 1867. Others in the line, distaff sides, came directly to the Peninsula by sailing ship.
Found St Anicet, Godmanchester and Huntingdon on Google maps. SW of Montreal
That he got land from the King in the early 1800s doesn't mean that is when he came over from Ireland. That is as far as we have traced that line.
My mother's side came over with William Penn.
Eh, I was just about to ask you, Are you sure about Newfoundland? because if not, I would first look in Quebec or eastern Ontario.
The potato famine refugees who later started my hometown achieved fame by invading Canada.
Invading Canada is a grand American tradition.
That he got land from the King in the early 1800s doesn't mean that is when he came over from Ireland. That is as far as we have traced that line.
Have you looked up this family in the 1851 census of Canada? The ages and birthplaces of household members might give you a rough date of emigration from Ireland.
You seem more interested than I am.
The name "McManus" goes way way back to 1200 or so in Ireland, but I could still be from some kind of Anglo-Irish invader, a vicious minion of Longshanks or sumpin.
Don't know enough Canadian history, but that McManus got free land from the King in 1830 doesn't look good for rebel roots.
And I did look at the online 1851 census. Neat, but I don't think I have the location close enough to avoid hours of searching through the pdf's.
Don't know enough Canadian history, but that McManus got free land from the King in 1830 doesn't look good for rebel roots.
No. The rebels were invading Canada thirty years later.
The rebels were invading from Canada thirty years later.
Someone was bragging about having Edward II for an ancestor, and the geneticist pointed out that about 1 in 3 people in the UK have Edward the II as their ancestor.
If he hadn't been gay it would have been 1 in 2.
75: "a href="http://www.logainm.ie/Viewer.aspx?text=keadue">Keadue
Lee Atwater was a sad case. It didn't seem like he had any real friends once he was dying. Even the people who hired him loathed him.
I must have the wrong evil kid from Narnia, because the one I put in linked to some dude who served in the Texas war of independence. When I tried the other possibility I must have had the wrong most commonest last name ever. I tried two. I'm going to have to e-mail alameida if I'm too stupid to figure it out.
91: I maybe got it by evil kid from book 1 rather than the one I'd expected. The WP article showing the CSA dude shows that he was plenty demonic-looking (to be stereotypical about what the devil looks like, of course) as a young man but was overwhelmed by his beard in later years.
"I must have had the wrong most commonest last name ever. I tried two"
Patel? Al-Hadj?
Middle name is a spherical pink Nintendo character, if I have the right guy.
21: Of course, it probably helps that not too many generals got killed
You'd think not, but apparently US Civil War generals got killed at a surprising rate. I think (possibly quoted in McPherson) you actually had a higher chance of dying if you were a general than if you were an ordinary soldier. That's the thing about having a Napoleonic "riding around on a horse looking visible" model of generalship in the age of the rifle - you're sniper bait.
95: Also, as someone pointed out earlier, there were a hell of a lot of generals in both armies.
94: Agreed. I'm sort of liking this name game, but can't offer up my own because it's too incredibly obvious. Hmm.
name dash commonest ever lastname
doesn't mean alameida's name hyphenated with the common name?
99: No. Sounds a little like Kobe.
(Breed of cucumber suitable for pickling)-(commonest ever lastname) might be easier than Nintendo character for those without Nintendo-age kids.
What am I saying? Half the commenters here are Nintendo-age kids.
Or "You know what the title of that book should be? Yes, I Can If Frank Sinatra Says It's OK".
I would estimate the set of people who can identify that Nintendo character as maybe 50,000 times larger than the set of people who can name a breed of cucumber.
I would say I am an Atari-aged kid, but my parents wouldn't buy us one. Excepting Donkey Kong, I don't think I've played a game with Mario in it.
Wait, there are people in the world who haven't played Super Smash Bros.? This makes me sad.
Oooh! I am a type of vegetable, too! Also, just a regional adjective.
I was inspired by the ancestor talk to google a bit and am hoping someone with JSTOR access can get me this article. Email emperorofblandings care of the google email service. TIA.
Also, are we still on for tomorrow night?
108: Wait! Your *that* Blandings, too? That's my favorite Blandings.
I had no idea that Ximenez was a kind of pickling cucumber or that Fatio was a super-common last name. I learn so much from hanging out here!
108.last: yes! I'm hoping somebody puts a post up soonish.
Your/i>
This Al and Tipper thing is killing you, isn't it? I went with the name because of both Blandingses.
Apparently, it's also killing me.
I went with the name because of both Blandingses.
Blisters Mandingo, however, is still available.
106: I don't think I've played a video game since Pong, and that only briefly.
108, 111: Done. I probably got the details wrong, so go correct me in the comments.
117: only one very minor detail.
I would estimate the set of people who can identify that Nintendo character as maybe 50,000 times larger than the set of people who can name a breed of cucumber.
I had to google the Nintendo character but knew the cucumber. I'm a sorry excuse for a 28 year old. (My mom wouldn't let me have Nintendo.)
Scrolling through the comments, I vote for more details/information about the coked up peversions of Lee Atwater.
lee did a lot of coke all the time, and totally hit on me when I was 12 and 13. like to the point where my step-dad thought it was kind of a problem. [rolls eyes in most exaggerated fashion ever, causing them to permanently gaze into the darkness of my skull.] not as bad as this one turkish friend of theirs, but whatever; that guy actually once chased one of my sleep-over guests around the house when I was in 7th grade and had to be smacked upside the head, a service my stepfather was always willing to provide. atwater was super fame-whorey, too; I can remember him bragging about how he had sat next to pia zadora at some banquet thing and thinking, who the hell? he was a good musician, though, and had great taste in music, knowing all these super-obscure 60s soul acts. he was often the dj for our 3-day-long parties, before he got too busy in dc politics. I was going to say my step-dad knew him from the university of the south but I checked his wiki page it must have been from when they were living in columbia, S.C.
my home sucked along the 'grownups having their shit together' axis, but actually my friends all thought it was the greatest and my parents were the coolest parents ever. I can't believe your dad lets you smoke weed! I can't believe your mom hands out demerol like mother-fucking chiclets! believe it, dudes.
121: Holy Shit! Hitting on 13 year olds is skeevy even for coked-up sociopaths. Or maybe not. I've generally avoided the type, so I don't really know.
Wow, thanks. One always assumes that Atwater -- and various second or third tier Atwater types -- were coked up pervitos, but it's nice to get confirmation.
Somewhere there's a great book to be written about the particular pathology of the Reagan Revolution types -- the appropriation of all of the worst part of the 60s and rejection of all of the best. I guess the film American Psycho captures some of that dynamic.
122: I think one of the signal characteristics of cocaine is that it can make doing the skeeviest things seem perfectly normal.
I knew neither cucumber nor Nintendo character. My Nintendo broke in about 1992 and I never replaced it.
