Re: Another British Thing I Saw

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I'm just going to pretend this post was in response to this comment, which I just got to. Yes, that's right. I broke one of my own quirky posting rules: don't post without catching up on comments first. Such a rebel!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06- 3-10 11:09 PM
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He is good. I'm impressed.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 3-10 11:13 PM
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2: A lot of his stuff is silly fluff. Not bad, but I wish he'd do more with the the post-its. He's got a knack for explaining shit quickly.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06- 3-10 11:18 PM
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He's got a knack for explaining shit quickly.

Yeah. It's an important skill, and not a very common one.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 3-10 11:21 PM
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Also, he mentioned the band Noah and the Whale in one of his vlogs about recording an album, and I seriously spent about five minutes searching various iterations of "Knower and the Whale" before I was like, "Wait, I have a song from that band!" This one.

I know we've discussed that language thing before, so I thought it would be appreciated.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06- 3-10 11:35 PM
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I like his videos about Twilight so far.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06- 3-10 11:36 PM
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5: Heh. Oh, those wacky non-rhotic types.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 3-10 11:46 PM
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Looking at some more of the videos, I see what you mean about the fluff.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 3-10 11:46 PM
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7: Yeah, the realization came when I took a mental step back and thought, "What would plausibly be with the whale—oh, fucking duh, Noah. I'm slow."


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06- 3-10 11:54 PM
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Maybe I should start vlogging.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 12:25 AM
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10: Likes


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 12:30 AM
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mmm, not so into his summary of lost. I mean, accurate from a certain point of view, but the things he talks about take up about 4% of the total running time of the show. I'm in the "liked the Lost finale" camp, and in general loved the show. his drawing of hurley was funny, though.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 5:53 AM
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Can linguists comment on how British speakers seem to add an "r" along a word boundary when there are vowels on each side? I haven't listened to the link as I'm at work, but "Noah and" sounding like "Knower and" is exactly the kind of thing that results. What I hear is not the non-rhotic version of "r", by the way.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 6:01 AM
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It's only found in some English accents, and is sometimes described as 'r' insertion. I think of it as a southern english thing. Scots don't do it. Americans probably don't do it because your vowels often have a consonantal flavour anyway, with the rhotacised vowel phonemes. I imagine it's done because it avoids having to stop the vowel sound either using a glottal stop or devoicing or whatever.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 6:29 AM
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Some Boston and other New England speakers will add the r in some circumstances. Wikipedia says that the "intrusive r" between vowels is different from the "hypercorrected r" that will show up even when not between two vowels, which I didn't know.


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 6:38 AM
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||

I need to get a serious thank-you gift for a relative. She likes wine, but I don't know her specific preferences, nor do I know much at all about wine generally. Can anyone recommend something, maybe in the $50 range, that can be shipped to California? Or failing that, a good online merchant?

|>


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 6:42 AM
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Having a fine New York wine shipped to California as a gift could be a good idea.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 6:46 AM
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what's the deal with the upper-class british thing where extraneous "w"s start proliferating? there was a guy who did briefings in iraq war I who pronounced "jaguar" as "jaguwaw".


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 7:01 AM
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18: what, as in "welease Wodewick!"?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 7:05 AM
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Most British English speakers would pronounce it with something approximating the /w/ in between the final two vowels. That is, there'd be rounding on the /u:/ which could sound like an inserted /w/. /jagju:(w)ar/

The US pronunciation /jɛgwar/ or /jɛgwɝ/ sort to thing sounds odd to us [i.e. to me].

The failure to pronounce the /r/ on the end, and pronouncing it as /w/ is a fairly common upper-class thing.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 7:16 AM
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I expect Teo to come along and correct my dodgy GenAm phonemic transcription.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 7:16 AM
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The inserted r that always gets me (in the US) is "Warshington". Where the heck did that come from?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 7:18 AM
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Gah, shite.

Those should be /ʤagju:ar/ and /ʤagju:(w)ar/ for British English, and /ʤɛgwar/ and /ʤɛgwɝ/ for Wronglandian.



Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 7:18 AM
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13/14: Certain kinds of NY accents do this, too. Once my father was naming brands of vermouth to me and I was writing them down (Maybe I was having a party or something? Dunno.). I burst out laughing when I got to the liquor store, because, while I had written down "Tribuner," the name of the vermouth was "Tribuno."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 7:20 AM
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Can anyone recommend something, maybe in the $50 range, that can be shipped to California?

Why, yes I could.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 7:26 AM
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Here's a white, a red, and a Champagne.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 8:07 AM
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22:"Warshington".

Around here, the correct pronunciation is "Warshinton" - don't forget to drop the "g".


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 8:46 AM
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Thanks, guys!


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 8:47 AM
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There are many fine Warshington wines.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 8:57 AM
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The recommendations in 25/26 are making me nostalgic for the days when I regularly drank, or at least tasted, that kind of stuff.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 9:08 AM
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I don't really get 13. Noah and Knower sound the same to me (whatever a knower is) but neither of 'Noah and' or 'knower and' sound like noah-rand which is what I'm understanding 13 is getting at. Still, ttaM seems to understand, so maybe it's just me being from dahn sahf.

I heard a joke when Alan Sugar was on Jonathan Ross the other day which has amused me since then - how much does a Cockney sell shampoo for? Pantene.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 9:46 AM
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Here's the clip that prompted my Noah/Knower confusion.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 9:50 AM
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re: 31

Try something like 'vodka and tonic', a lot of people [mostly suvners] pronounce that 'vodkerancoke', with an 'r' in between the two "a" vowels.

"Dywanna vodkerancoke? orrasmirnovice?"

Noah and knower sound completely different in my accent, of course. Both in terms of the vowel sounds, and the pronounced 'r' at the end of knower.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 9:53 AM
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neither of 'Noah and' or 'knower and' sound like noah-rand

The second does for me. I don't get the Pantene joke.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 9:56 AM
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"A pound ten"?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 9:59 AM
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re: 35

Yes.

Street markets all over southern England ring out with the sound of "getyonicenannas. Pahnabowl. Strawbrees, getyostrawbrees, pahnabowl" etc.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:01 AM
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How does "tonic" become "coke"?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:06 AM
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Ah. See, I don't even really understand how you pronounce d-o-l-l-a-r as "pound". It's like y'all don't know Jesus at all.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:06 AM
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re: 37

It's like you're not even Catholic!


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:09 AM
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36: I thought it was, "Who will buy my sweet red roses, two blooms for a penny?" (alto) and "Ripe strawberries! Ripe!" (soprano) and "Knives! Knives to grind!" (basso).


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:16 AM
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Oud's must be so high I swear she could fly.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:24 AM
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40: Whereas in Dublin, it's just "Cockles! And Mussels! Alive, Alive, Oh!"


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:28 AM
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So, this Alex Day guy's accent is typical of Southern England then? (I have an ongoing life project to stop conflating all English, Kiwi, and Aussie accents; if I can get this granular, that'd be great.)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:28 AM
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41: Oh, I forgot one -- "Any milk today, Mistress? Any milk?" And I think that one is alto and the roses is mezzo, but I can't remember? Also, who can forget:

She was from the country, but now she's up a gumtree
She let a fellow beat her, and lead her along
What's the use of cryin', she made her bed to lie in
She's glad to bring a coin in, and join in this song


YIKES.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:31 AM
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Yes, he has a mild Estuary-ish accent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English

His accent isn't 'posh' or very working class sounding, but other than it's fairly hard to place. Generic sahff-east, basically.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:32 AM
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Tuppence a bag.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:34 AM
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Yes, you squashed cabbage-leaf, you disgrace to the noble architecture of these columns, you incarnate insult to the English language! I could pass you off as the Queen of Sheba


Posted by: Professor Henry Higgins | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:36 AM
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There was a brief discussion of the regional/class variation of "intrusive r" in the comments to this recent Language Log post.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:38 AM
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Incidentally, when people talk about southern English accents, they can mean very different things. They can mean a home counties accent, ie RP, or they can mean estuary. Or conceivably west country, but that's unlikely. There are commonalities between RP and estuary that distinguish them from northern accents, though - most famously the vowel sound in "bath".


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:41 AM
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Wat arrh ye talkin' about, matey. We West Country lads don't harve no extrey arrrhs!


Posted by: Robert Newton | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:56 AM
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They can mean a home counties accent, ie RP, or they can mean estuary.

Or something else entirely, like the unique Oxford town (non-university) accent, where "ow" is pronounced something like "ay".


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 10:59 AM
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No, West Country lads have extra 'l's


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:01 AM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:09 AM
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13: If I haven't forgotten everything since I was bits and pieces of a linguist, this is called "epenthesis" and the r is epenthetic. Someone will politely stomp on me if I am wrong. The only analog that springs to mind for American English* is the n in "an."

*well ok other than Boston where there's some sort of epenthetic r.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:17 AM
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54: Ancient Greek has an "intervocalic nu" -- like our "an" -- that it pops in to prevent hiatus between vowels.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:21 AM
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Hey Nikita, get those missiles out of Cuber


Posted by: John F Kennedy | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:23 AM
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As in 'an hotel'? Because that's nails on a blackboard to me.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:24 AM
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Intrusive r is typical of some but not all non-rhotic dialects. The Wikipedia page on it is pretty good, although it seems to make a distinction between "linking" and "intrusive" r that is not at all clear to me. Basically what happens is that non-rhotic dialects no longer pronounce r in phrase-final position or when it's followed by a consonant, but they do still pronounce it when it's followed by a vowel. So words ending in r followed by words beginning with vowels keep the r. Otherwise the distinction between final r and final vowel is lost, though, and the etymological final r that is still pronounced before a following vowel gets reanalyzed as an epenthetic consonant to separate the two vowels, even in words that don't have an etymological r.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:24 AM
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No, West Country lads have extra 'l's

Most famously in Bristow.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:26 AM
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I expect Teo to come along and correct my dodgy GenAm phonemic transcription.

You're pretty close, but "jaguar" should be /ʤægwar/.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:28 AM
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56: LL on Kennedy's intrusive 'r'.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:31 AM
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57. Not necessarily. "An intrusive consonant" would be a better example, or "another". Greek provides words like "anaemic" (bloodless) from "haimia" (blood), with a nu between the alpha (meaning "not") and the "haimia" to make it sayable.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 11:32 AM
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Is this thing on?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 12:11 PM
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Gawd, is it even possible to have a thread around here that doesn't devolve into phonology and sociolinguistics?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 12:19 PM
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I blame Stanley.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 12:20 PM
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65: I posted something about race and gender and religion to make up for it.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 12:21 PM
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I think you made the distinction between intrusive and linking pretty clear, teo.

and the etymological final r that is still pronounced before a following vowel gets reanalyzed as an epenthetic consonant to separate the two vowels

This is linking r...

even in words that don't have an etymological r.

...and this is intrusive r.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 12:30 PM
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That makes sense, but it's not what the Wikipedia article seems to say. It's hard to tell what the article is trying to say, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 12:54 PM
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68: That's because of the funny accent.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 1:07 PM
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68: In the Wikipedia article, the first is with "words historically ending in /r/" and the second is with "any word that ends in the non-high vowels... even when no final /r/ was historically present." Same thing, surely.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 2:00 PM
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70: On re-reading, you are correct. I'm not sure what was confusing me about it before.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 3:49 PM
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72

I hated the "Lost" finale. Absolutely hated it. In fact, I thought much of season 6 was an unprovoked insult to the intelligence of the viewer.

And I was once a big fan of the show...way back with season 1. In retrospect, I do think it went downhill after the first season. Which decline I noticed gradually, as I was watching it, but it took me too long to admit just how bad it had become: I was committed to the series, and it's hard to tell when all your love's in vain.

I'm going to miss Hurley, though.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 6:55 PM
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You will then love this, Mary Catherine.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 6:58 PM
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73: I do!


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 06- 4-10 7:00 PM
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My missus (Hong Kong Chinese) once, in a bar in HK, when she asked for a drink, told the barman she wanted a 'ketchup' (or it could just have been a 'catsup').

Astonished,I thought she had asked for a glass of tomato sauce.

Turned out that in Cantonese 'fanke' = tomato and 'chaap' is juice, abbreviated to 'ke-chaap'

Until then I had never realised the origin of the word.....


Posted by: Herr Torquewrench | Link to this comment | 06- 7-10 11:54 PM
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