that this lack of polish while eating
No pirogie?
Unless you want to become her big city friend and role model like in the movies, setting a good example is probably the most that can, humanely, be done, but it might be enough.
Does Prim Where It Counts mean a high end bikini wax? Just askin'.
As for chewing with her mouth open, her momma would be so ashamed. Raised by wolves? Table manners are the last bastion of the bourgeouisie. The center will hold.
The usual indirection tactic is to mention a third party with the problem-- my freshman roommate started winning friends and influencing people after someone suggested she watch dainty eating videos.
It should also be said that many a candidate has lost a potential job through poor table manners. Do you think they bought lunch because they liked you?
4: dainty eating videos
Huh, the ones I've seen offered for sale are usually about messy eating, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.
Stanley, are you fucking with us? Is this an actual Ask the Mineshaft or a parody?
The nice way: befriend her first, then tell her. No one wants negative feedback from someone who's not friendly.
The obnoxious way #1: use mirroring. i.e. sit across from her and do her one up - go projectile on her
Obnoxious way #2: get yourself a nice set of blinders, and sit next to her. You could say that you're wearing the blinders at work so that they'll feel "normal" when you wear them for your trap game.
Obnoxious way #3: get EVERYONE at the table to do #1.
Obnoxious way #4: use videos or posters to make your point.
Oouch... why is it that there are so many more obnoxious ways to accomplish things, than nice ways? Is this a problem that I have, or just a law of the universe?
Table manners are the last bastion of the bourgeouisie.
My paternal grandparents were pretty damned bourgeois, and not in the fun, didn't-sell-the-Maine-summer-house-in-the-late-'50s way, but the stories about my father's and uncle's childhood table manners would curl an indulgent Berkeley/Brooklyn parent's hair.
Does Prim Where It Counts know any black schoolteachers she could call upon to give this young woman a stern talking-to?
7: It really came in from a real-live commenter. Now, as to whether that person's messing with you...
the stories about my father's and uncle's childhood table manners
My father tells this story on himself.
At dinner in the summer before going off to boarding school he was displaying a little Emily Post deficiency, to which my grandfather proclaimed: "If you eat like that at Andover, they will laugh at you."
Upon arrival at school my father found out the truth. Being an all male school at the time table manners were nowhere to be found in the main dining hall. I'm sure everyone behaved properly at the Headmaster's Tea.
It's weird to me that the writer connects bad table-manners with being from a small, unsophisticated city. Chewing with your mouth closed isn't a sophisticated coastal thing -- it's some kind of cultural marker, I suppose, but it's not a latte-sipping-volvo-driving kind of thing.
I say this as a card-carrying member of the coastal elite, who eats like a cross between a wolf and a vacuum cleaner. My table manners are inoffensive only because it all happens so fast that very few people have ever actually seen me eat. (True fact: I have, sitting in a restaurant with a lunch companion, had to explain that yes, I did order lunch, and yes, they did bring me my food, it's just gone already.)
I believe Miss Manners commented on this one a little while ago (or was it about people who dress inappropriately at work? It's the same kind of problem.) Probably the politest thing to do is to send out a mass e-mail to everyone in the office/lunch group using soothing, anodyne language ("received complaints" etc.)
Those who know that they're polite eaters will ignore the message, while those who chew with their mouths open will (probably) know it's them, but with enough plausible deniability to save face.
I like juicy fish and I like to eat them raw, without utensils, and accompanied with much lip smacking. This alienated everybody and no one would help me when Baggins took my ring.
it all happens so fast that very few people have ever actually seen me eat
Welcome to lunch with Lizardbreath. Please keep your hands and arms away from her mouth at all times to prevent injury. Have a pleasant afternoon.
But seriously, I don't think there's any effective way to improve another adult's manners. You can complain about them, if it makes you feel better, but I doubt you're doing the target any favors.
11: Oh, they're totally messing with me. I mean, wow, they had to see a co-worker talk while eating a sandwich? And this is such a big thing that they need advice on how to navigate it? Maybe a better question is whether the questioner isn't perhaps a touch too delicate to be allowed out of doors.
Don't know where my name went there.
It's weird to me that the writer connects bad table-manners with being from a small, unsophisticated city.
I agree, this is bizarre to the point of making me think that this entire ATM is a set-up. You know where they have really good table manners? Small cities in the South and Midwest. It's not like chewing with your mouth closed is something that you only learn how to do once you sign up for zip car or whatever.
I should add that I guess it's relevant whether you're eating with her in professional situations, or you only happen to go out for lunch together. If it's the latter then if it bothers you that much, there's nothing you can do. Avoid eating with her. I know the feeling. Someone chewing with his mouth open really puts me off my feed.
If you ever eat with her in a professional situation, then it would probably be helpful if you could get the boss involved, since the boss is the one with the most standing to send a mass e-mail. And honestly, I don't know how it ought to be phrased -- I don't know how office language sounds.
I mean, this red state/blue state nonsense is just getting out of control. Yes, everyone who doesn't live within 10 miles of the atlantic (north of Norfolk) or pacific is a drooling, gun-toting rube who doesn't know how to put food into his or her mouth properly.
I find mouth-open eating quite disgusting, but it's not unambiguously impolite* in the US, so any attempt to "correct" someone is starting from pretty damn shaky ground. Lots of cultures regard it as no problem at all, and a number of cultures consider noisy eating a compliment to the chef. Unless the general principle is that everyone should adopt Boston Brahmin table manners on arrival in the US, or at minimum encourage their progeny to discard the cultural practices of their home country where they might irritate UMC white Americans, I think the questioner has to just deal.
Also 21 is correct IME. The people I know with generally crap manners all 'round tend to be from the West coast or urban Northeast.
*Is there anything that's unambiguously impolite in the US that isn't borderline sociopathic?
You know where they have really good table manners? Small cities in the South and Midwest.
It's as if the writer has never seen a funny but heartwarming movie about a highpowered coastal power professional getting stranded someplace in the middle of the country when their car breaks down, and they're going to be late for some vitally important professional obligation, but instead they learn to slow down and smell the roses. The locals, while they may be a little fussy, have warm, welcoming manners, while the protagonist was clearly raised in a barn, and totally deserved that speeding-ticket/flat-tire/whatever.
Also cruel to animals and unable to distinguish better liquor from worse.
The Lowells only talk to the Cabots and the Cabots only talk to god. I went to grad school with a Lowell who would explain why this was unfair to the Lowells, who were every bit as selective as the Cabots.
I mean, wow, they had to see a co-worker talk while eating a sandwich?
This. Seriously, commenter who is or is not messing with us, get the fuck over yourself. You are upset by seeing food in someone's mouth? Really? Obviously you aren't really concerned about this person, so doing this to assuage your own personal mouth-butthurtness is..shall we say.. sucky.
Unless you're fucking with us, in which case, good work.
personal mouth-butthurtness
Is there an origin for "butthurt"? I know what it means in usage -- basically emotional upset that's not worthy of sympathy because the premise on which the upset is based is stupid or pointless. But I don't get how the word works.
Also, M.!
Become her closest friend, and then tell her?
unambiguously impolite in the US
Being slightly unwashed, I'd say. The US is second only to the Japanese in viewing this a rudeness.
25. You know, that movie can be really nice (Groundhog Day) or a pointless retread (Sandra Bullock movie last year where she forces herself in matrimony on some dude).
Are people seriously advocating a mass email as a legitimate option?
Dear Colleagues:
It has come to my attention that there have been numerous complaints about individuals in the office chewing with their mouths open, which is upsetting to some of our staff. In the future, please be more considerate when you eat.
Sincerely,
Passive-Aggressive Boss with No Good Sense
I mean, for real? This is not real. The people who send out these emails are the people who are justly hated by everyone else. Email senders: you are hated. The end.
Is there an origin for "butthurt"?
Do you really want an answer to that question?
Mouth-butthurtness was a special Mineshaft treat.
But I have no idea where "butthurt" comes from.
When it comes to office manners, not getting butthurt is pretty fundamental.
31: Thank you. I thought it was a very bad idea, but I have been cc'd on stupider e-mails so I figured I was wrong.
14
Probably the politest thing to do is to send out a mass e-mail to everyone in the office/lunch group using soothing, anodyne language ("received complaints" etc.)
There are some problems with which this would help, but I don't think this is one of them. Some people who are polite eaters will be seized with curiosity about the extreme boor who provoked the e-mail, some polite eaters don't even think about it normally so they'll get more self-conscious about how they eat going forward, and if the unpolished person still has this habit despite a life long enough to get an office job, I doubt oblique e-mail would get the message across.
25:Michael J Fox! I've seen that movie 100 times! On his way to become a rich plastic surgeon and becomes a family practitioner instead.
Profound truths about geographical and cultural differences in that movie.
"Born in a subway" works better for a clueless coastal.
"Born in a barn" is, well, Jesus.
Well it's always better to avert your eyes so you don't see a big old bolus of food, hum a tune so you don't hear people's lips smack, and think happy thoughts.
And when you get right down to it, you're never going to change anybody's behavior in any regard, especially manners -- like, ever.
But if you do have to say something if you can't take it any more like the anonymous writer, I think passive aggression has active aggression beat hands down. You're definitely not going to change someone's behavior if you start criticizing them head on. That's what people hate.
30: That's close, but I've run into substantial subcultures where it's regarded as de nada (yes, I do know a bunch of hippies. How did you guess?).
The Rice Neologisms Database isn't particularly helpful:
This term is a metaphor that compares the pain of hurting your butt to unhappiness felt after a minor setback. In both cases, while painful, both are fleeting and have no long-term effect. As a result, it would be foolish to lament over such a minor thing. Often used as an insult or in a pejorative manner, directed at somebody who is unhappy. It is often meant as an insult, implying that the person is overly emotional. This word was probably coined because it is a creative and humorous way to poke fun at overly emotional friends.
39: That's actually the specific one I was thinking of. But there are a million of them.
The issue that's tearing the internet apart.
I'm guessing that if I started using "butthurt" in conversation around the right co-workers, I could get somebody to send around a general e-mail about polite conversation and what it does not involve.
On the other hand, people love it when you passive-aggressively drum them down for their "provincial" ways.
I'm kind of hoping that the "good at her job" open-mouth-eating country rube takes on senior position and then summarily fires everyone at said coastal creative company, stranding them in an expensive city with health care. OK, I take that back if the OPoster is someone I already like.
I gotta say, cultural differences matter here. If I name an ethnic group, I'll probably piss someone off, but frex the food and oral tidyness of recently arrived mainland Chinese is noticeably out-of-band. Probably this is because of a perception of a casual environment where tidyness is unnecessary, mainlanders in formal groups or with strangers are IME unremarkeable.
Or take recycling-- UMC white people love to take care of their bottles, do not use styrofoam lightly (unless there are kids involved, then it's OK). Everyone else is much more laid back about cramming the yes wasteful leftovers from a takeout meal into the trash. Anyway, giving our coastal colleague some benefit of the doubt is more interesting, and it's not clear from the original that the chewette is really an adult-- are 20-year olds adults?
Dalrymple had a nice column about an extreme case: http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_oh_to_be.html
I recommend that the questioner have kids - or at least, eat with kids under 5 a few times. Once you've seen a child, say, take a masticated hunk of food out of his mouth, place it on the tray in front of him, insert something new, and THEN put the ABC food back in his mouth, you will have no problem dealing with someone who merely talks with her mouth full.
Unfogged: the Erma Bombeck of forums masquerading as blogs.
9: My paternal grandparents were pretty damned bourgeois, and not in the fun, didn't-sell-the-Maine-summer-house-in-the-late-'50s way
What does this mean?
Loud chewing annoys me, but I suspect the problem is mine, not theirs. (Also, I've noticed that if I'm already irritated with someone, and they then chew loudly, I get even more peeved. But this is really only in play with people I'm close to. Like, say, my sister.)
A different question:
I'm going to be a houseguest at the end of this week, and need a small gift. I'll be staying at a close friend's husband's apartment, which is in a different city from closefriend's condo. (I.e., my friend doesn't live there all the time, though she will be there the night I'm visiting.) Friend is pregnant, so a bottle of wine is out. She's also celiac, so jar of cookies or somesuch would require a little more effort (and she knows what all the good g-f stuff is better than I do anyway). What should I give?
48: Seriously, who knew there were so many ways to eat improperly. The hardest rule to enforce, because it took a while to realize he wasn't joking, was the one that says you are not allowed to take any food out of or put any food into somebody else's mouth.
||
I'm finding the helpful comments on this post interesting. There are a bunch of interesting organizations mentioned that I hadn't heard of, and the meta-discussion about how one can best influence policy is also good.
|>
53: A book? Flowers? A small knitted thing or the like, if you do that sort of thing? Framed picture of the two of you with tacky sayings?
For the record: the question is a bit of a troll, but it's more or less accurate about my feelings about the situation. We desperately needed a new front-page post and I figured table manners and class markers were better topics around here than a discussion of black people that somehow became about snakes. The implied coastal=good manners/non-coastal=bad manners is badly put. I merely meant to suggest that my co-worker might have a hard time in fancier company in this town with her bad table manners - certainly someone raised in a "proper" home in the South would be fine on this score. (She's not from the South or the Midwest.) And I don't think there's anything I can really do. I already either sit next to her, not across, at lunch or just avoid looking at her much, because looking at partially chewed food in someone's mouth really does gross me out. It would be untrue to the spirit of the departed Ogged (pbuh) to refrain from such observations, would it not?
39: That's actually the specific one I was thinking of. But there are a million of them.
I was thinking of My Cousin Vinny, but I don't remember if the big-city types come away with a newfound appreciation for the South in that one. Regardless, I will from time to time break out a Marisa Tomei impression with the movie's "Imagine your a deer..." monologue.
Also, if she's pregnant but is the type who liked to drink, perhaps a fancy syrup or something that can be mixed with sparkling water to make a virgin drink?
61: they have gluten-free O'Douls? Do they call it "tap water"?
53: Little baby present (hat, socks, something)? Or chocolate should be gluten free, right? Nice soap?
What should I give?
Vintage Cocktail napkins
60: I think in MCV, it's more about the small-town-Southerners learning to appreciate the big-city types. Which is pleasant, for a change.
64: Shit, right, the celiac thing.
I guess the only other choice is to go to a New Age store and get her a dream catcher. Perfect gift for mom and baby alike.
59: It would be untrue to the spirit of the departed Ogged (pbuh) to refrain from such observations, would it not?
Absolutely. But the tradition is incomplete without the rest of us complaining about how prissy and ridiculous such observations are.
51: My grandfather, a master of the long-term financial misstep, let go a very nice little cottage on Mt. Desert Island in Maine.
We desperately needed a new front-page post and I figured table manners and class markers were better topics around here than a discussion of black people that somehow became about snakes.
This shows lovely manners, by the way.
MCV may be the best lawyer movie ever. I think the city/country appreciation in that film goes both ways.
There are plenty of films about the initially frightening, but in fact surprisingly warm ways of the big-city New Yorker (the Freshman and, in its way, Crocodile Dundee come to mind). I can't think off hand of a single movie in which Los Angeles is pictured as similarly charming.
70: ah. Yeah, that's a shame. My grandfather, who was WASPy as all get out but not bourgeois, exactly, somehow failed to do (approximately) the same, which (aside from the odd septic/sibling blow-up) continues to pay blueberry-and-lobster-related dividends for the grandkids and great grandkids.
72: L.A. Story, with Steve Martin?
And, to the OP, I think it's the direct approach or nothing. You could excuse bringing up the issue with talk about how you're crazy and neurotic about manners, but don't want to get distracted from a friendship or good conversations over lunch. This move takes some guts, though.
LA Story and the Garry Shandling Show. Maybe Weeds. Oh, and Chinatown.
Yeah, I mean, you could bring some of that big-city rudeness to bear and say "could you stop chewing with your mouth open?" while naked and with a boston cream pie strapped to your junk.
72: Aside from L.A. Story: Beverly Hills Cop (both movies) and Curb Your Enthusiasm (not a movie, but very much about LA).
But L.A. seems to lend itself much more to movies about the heart of corruption underneath a surface of glamor. Lots and lots of noir seems to be set in L.A. or other parts of California.
I can't think off hand of a single movie in which Los Angeles is pictured as similarly charming.
The Big Lebowski. (I am completely serious.) Come on, Jeff Bridge's in the Ralph's in his bathrobe? Perfect.
Boogie Nights and Beverly Hills Cop are brilliant picks. I don't think Curb Your Enthusiasm counts, although people are generally depicted as being more decent than Larry David.
Weeds was in the far suburbs and then San Diego, not LA (except for when they reference my neighborhood as the frightening ghetto location of the black weed-dealing family in the first season).
while naked and with a boston cream pie strapped to your junk.
Silly Tweety, that's from Varsity Blues
Oud is totally right about the Big Lebowski. How did I, the Black Dude, fail to catch that one?
82 was me, and Lebowski is a good pick too. OK, I'm going to walk back that prior comment. I did just see Training Day on cable which is coloring my view of the cinematic depiction of the city.
There are plenty of films about the initially frightening, but in fact surprisingly warm ways of the big-city New Yorker (the Freshman and, in its way, Crocodile Dundee come to mind). I can't think off hand of a single movie in which Los Angeles is pictured as similarly charming.
Crocodile Dundee in Los Angeles?
I can't think off hand of a single movie in which Los Angeles is pictured as similarly charming.
I suppose one could do worse than watch this and decide for one's self.
87.2: I opened that link and two clicks later, I learned of Tremors: The Thunder from Down Under. Even Kevin Bacon is rumored to be appearing. This is the best movie news ever.
Butthurt is a little too ambiguous for me:
Butthurt is that special feeling in your ass after it's been kicked and/or fucked.
Tremors. In Australia. With most of the original stars.
I've wanted to see the doc linked in 88 for years, but it's unavailable due to rights issues.
I had somehow blissfully forgotten about the existence of Crocodile Dundee in Los Angeles. It's fairly remarkable that Paul Hogan managed to get that movie made approximately 11 years after his brief moment in the sun had vanished.
I had somehow blissfully forgotten about the existence of Crocodile Dundee in Los Angeles.
I saw it in the theater. One of Mike Tyson's better cameos, certainly.
OK, The Long Goodbye doesn't count, even if it is probably my favorite movie ever. Neither does Repo Man. The game isn't just "good movies set in Los Angeles."
101: are you saying the Los Angeles depicted in the Long Goodbye doesn't look charming?
Short Cuts especially after the earthquake.
I've wanted to see the doc linked in 88 for years, but it's unavailable due to rights issues.
There are always ways.
I think 500 Days of Summer was trying to depict LA as charming, but it utterly failed to either depict LA or be charming in any way.
Halford, if you want the film in 88 I can lend it to you.
Let's not forget The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.
102: Well, not as charming as Crash.
I was going to argue with 102, and then I thought of Marlowe's neighbors across from the Hightower Elevator.
Encino Man
OK, just kidding.
111: mm. Care for a brownie?
And can you imagine living in that apartment?
Oh, you know what? Bowfinger, and Swingers.
Weekend at Bernie's
Now that's just silly.
I had a friend who lived for years on N. Sycamore. God, that was the most amazing place to go for parties.
Quinceanera is about a Latino section of Echo Park and its partial gentrification, but I doubt anyone has seen it. There are other movies about Echo Park.
Devil in a Blue Dress has a positive look at a neighborhood and class.
The heyday for LA was the 60s, when half the sitcoms were set there, or the Valley or wherever. From Beaver to the Bradys and beyond. (Before the Beaver was Bob Cummings.)
There are other movies about Echo Park.
L.A. Story
Fletch
Quinceanera is about a Latino section of Echo Park and its partial gentrification, but I doubt anyone has seen it.
I've seen it, so fuck you.
I've seen it, Bob. We enjoyed it, though I must admit not especially for its take on LA in particular.
And can you imagine living in that apartment?
A little pricey, but not too bad by local standards. $1500/mo for a studio a few months ago.
You know, I always wanted to live in a bungalow court after seeing this
121: 200 square feet?
On the other hand, that could well be exactly the apartment from the movie.
And, to tie threads together, my housekeeper's daughter (from EP) saw Quinceanera (I have too) and found it exploitative and silly! So there.
I liked Quinceanera, though, and also Mi Vida Loca.
The outdoors scenes in John Wayne Bobbit Uncut were all familiar to me from my childhood in the Valley. The movie ended happily for all involved, so I'd say that's a nice portrayal of Los Angeles.
124: Someone was eating really loud right next to me when I saw Quinceanera, so I don't remember much of it. That could also be because they punched me when I turned around and asked them if they'd be raised by wolves, the boors.
BEEN raised by wolves, that is.
126: I heard the film's main star was a little, um, short for the role. True or false?
124:Won Jury and Grand Prize at Sundance, Humanitas, Spirit, and was nominated for 3 ALMAs and 5 Imagens...
so y'all are wrong.
The film's main star was Mr. Bobbitt himself; I can only assume his height had not changed between his life events and their re-creation on film.
Mr. Bobbitt's protrayal did reveal to me that real porn stars have acting abilities I wouldn't have credited until I saw his amateur efforts.
Why do I instinctively cross my legs when Mr. Bobbitt's name is mentioned?
There's a Bobbitt, Babbitt joke lying around here somewhere.
I have this problem with my (otherwise wonderful) husband. seriously, he has terrible table manners. my family gives me endless shit about it. I mentioned it to him once or twice, but wasn't going to hassle him so I just let it drop. I've explained to my children that they a) must use good manners at all times and b) are not allowed to criticize their dad about table manners. not sure how this is consistency-wise but they do have lovely manners, so...
130: I can only assume his height had not changed between his life events and their re-creation on film.
I, too, found these allegations about his height to be implausible, and am pleased to find my impressions confirmed.
John L. Sullivan: Aw, what do they know in Pittsburgh...
Hadrian: They know what they like.
John L. Sullivan: If they knew what they liked, they wouldn't live in Pittsburgh!
To 72: I'm assuming we're talking about the kind of thing parodied in that one Simpsons episode, where the Springfieldites ruthlessly exploit the Hollywood types who come to make a movie, who then have to slink back to LA where they are welcomed with open arms. The thing is, nobody in Pittsburgh wants to see that, except as parody. So you get Sunset Boulevard and The Player and Resevoir Dogs. Films that do try to make something out of that inversion, like the execrable Smiling Fish and Goat on Fire, generally tend to fall flat with audiences.
133: Well, it's no doubt plausible that a person, having undergone such an ordeal, might in fact walk taller for it.
not sure how this is consistency-wise
Perfectly consistent. Not harassing other people about their manners unless you're their parent or otherwise authorized to instruct them is a component of good manners. So your kids are doing well in all possible mannerly respects.
Mine, on the other hand... we're still working on not doing the "put your head a few inches from the plate and shovel in food" move.
Laurel Canyon. And I'd like to thank Prim for seizing pride of place from the previous thread, which sort of freaked me out.
Oh man. I'm struggling with my baby brother in that regard. Worse, my nagging is intermittent, so his manners lose ground when I'm not there to remind him with every fucking bite that he should close his mouth when he chews and put the fork down and sit straight.
we're still working on not doing the "put your head a few inches from the plate and shovel in food" move
Which is still progress from "no, your chin is not supposed to be in contact with your plate".
It's a shame Tampopo isn't kid-appropriate. I could make them watch the table-manners scene over and over again.
It isn't like my manners would get me into tea with the Queen. So if I'm the good example here, my baby brother is appalling.
I forget. What is the table-manners scene? Is it the one where the zen guru instructs someone on how to eat soup? You can get that clip from YouTube.
143: The spaghetti scene, I think.
(Actually, the Japanese attitude to slurping makes a lot more sense to me. Slurping also cools the food when it's going into your mouth and is by far the most sensible way to eat noodle soup.)
144: That's the one. Although I also like the zen guru: "After you caress the surface of the soup with your chopsticks, pick up a piece of pork and tap it three times on the edge of the bowl."
"Why do you tap it three times, Master?"
"To drain it."
The whole movie's great, actually.
142: Yeah, I'm not a great example myself. But the kids have some serious caveman eating habits going on, which must be eradicated before they leave home.
144: I remember learning the slurping thing when Carole Brady's wacky aunt came to visit. (Or was she Mike's aunt?)
Do you have any better ideas than nagging? I'm stuck on nagging, myself, except that I don't live with him, so if he can tune out my annoying drone for a weekend, he can eat in peace again for weeks and weeks.
Not really. While nagging doesn't get instant compliance, I'm hoping that it at least transmits information, so when they're trying to look respectable in front of other people they'll remember what I've told them. But I don't really know what works.
144: Maybe if I wore a shiny jacket with a large gold ruff, he would change his ways.
Similar problem here; I hate nagging, but it's my job. I say that, nag about sitting and forkholding or whatever, and then explain that people will think less of him if he can't eat without mess and noise just as they would if he smelled and wore dirty clothes. This way (in principle) there's no battle of wills, just a simple goal.
If he's willful about continuing to eat like a caveman, I withhold minor privileges-- dessert, or a good cartoon or video game or something.
150: Even if he didn't change, you'd still have the consolation of looking fabulous in your shiny jacket and large gold ruff. So it's a win either way.
OT: I just got a new box of pens at work. THERE IS A TAPE FLAG DISPENSER IN THE PEN. It's like seeing chocolate and peanut butter come together for the first time. I can't handle the excitement.
More O(n)T: My Dad, who wasn't particularly strict in other ways, would go insane with the table manners -- like, desert completely withheld if you failed to switch hands while chopping the meat, thus incurring the shame of eating "European style" (n.b.: this was real). "No dinner at all for you" was the consequence for more serious manners infractions. Today, my table manners still suck and I regularly just eat with my fingers while watching TV. End of lesson.
153: I never switched hands. My mother remarked on it only to say, "You'd make a good spy."
desert completely withheld
Did you have a particular affinity for sand or something?
You know the penalty for typos.
nag about sitting and forkholding or whatever, and then explain that people will think less of him if he can't eat without mess and noise just as they would if he smelled and wore dirty clothes
Our problem with this approach is that at the moment the girls are more interested in him than he is in them.
You know the penalty for typos.
OH SHIT, NOT AGAIN.
My grandmother always demanded "white house manners." as in, you were supposed to be ready at any time to be invited to dinner at the white house and have perfect manners. my grandfather, who was such a jerk about it that he would hold a table knife by the blade and pull it back to whack you on the elbow with it if you had your elbows on the table, always maintained that switching sides with the knife was a bourgeois affectation to be deprecated. he also was fine with eating asparagus with your fingers. in fact, if you cut it he would reprimand you. his practice of always choosing the youngest and most nervous (while being old enough to speak) to say grace was likewise unnerving.
160: my grandfather, who would whack my uncles on the head with his knife when their table manners strayed, taught me to drink the end of the soup by picking up the bowl.
I never switched hands because I'm fucking left handed and that's a stupid rule. So.
There's a Texan saying that when something is ready, it's "been saucered and blowed". Apparently this comes from a practice of pouring hot (soup? tea?) into the saucer so that it can cool off more readily, and then sipping it from the saucer, although you've got to imagine it's more slurping than sipping if your lips are on the edge of a saucer.
My grandmother always demanded "white house manners." as in, you were supposed to be ready at any time to be invited to dinner at the white house and have perfect manners.
My mother said this too! Though it wasn't any particular high standard, just the occasional admonishment, "You'll never get invited to the White House if you eat like that."
A friend's dad had a line -- "Be like the Pope." The idea was that if you were sitting around at your family dinner table, and the Pope showed up to eat, you would be the people who felt uncomfortable, not the Pope. The Pope can do what he wants! So, be like the Pope, and wherever you go assume that you have the power to make others feel uncomfortable.
OK, this advice wasn't particularly useful. And it's not on topic. But I still -- feeling awkward? Just pretend you're the Pope and make other people feel like shit!
Some of us have a bone to pick with Halford's friend's dad.
always maintained that switching sides with the knife was a bourgeois affectation to be deprecated.
This is odd. It's seemed to me that switching hands is natural: you wield your dominant utensil at any given time with your dominant hand. If you're forking, the fork is in the dominant hand (usually right); if you're cutting, you switch to hold your knife in that hand.
Far from an affectation. I had to learn/be trained not to switch hands, and I don't necessarily do it all the time, but when I do, the knife is in the dominant (right) hand, and I'm forking with my left, which, yo, is really a learned skill if you're right-handed. When you're eating peas, anyway.
When you're eating peas, anyway.
I still remember watching an English guy take a fork and put it into a piece of meat or something. Then, he used his knife to push some peas onto the back of the fork. I blame Thatcher.
I think my Dad saw failing to do the fork-switching thing as somehow betraying America.
My father also always maintained that switching sides with the knife was a bourgeois affectation to be deprecated. I believe this is something his mother picked up in her desperate attempts to escape the middle class.
171: Our dad had a different view.
171: Escaping the middle class is easy. Mere heavy drinking is often sufficient. Meth is quicker.
I've seen the back-of-the-fork thing on occasion.
I admit I've pushed the peas onto the fork, in upright position, held in my left hand, which I'm reasonable at given that I'm very much not left-handed. I've also, every once in a while, pushed peas onto my knife (not a steak knife) and gotten it to my mouth with some degree of grace.
Basically, be ambidextrous with your utensils.
And for god's sake, don't clutch them in your fists. I'd be on the same road as Prim, our ATM poster, with someone who held the utensils in their fists. I mean, in a professional setting.
171: I just don't understand how it's an affectation to switch sides.
174: Speaking of you and food, what happened with your uninvited guests?
The idea was that if you were sitting around at your family dinner table, and the Pope showed up to eat, you would be the people who felt uncomfortable, not the Pope. The Pope can do what he wants!
There's a line somewhere about the difference between English people and Americans -- the Brit walks around like he owns the place; the American, like he doesn't give a shit who owns the place.
132 -- It's perfectly consistent. As bad as bad table manners might be, complaining about them is even worse. So bad, that only a parent may correct his/her own child. Otherwise, silent non-acknowledgment is the only proper course.
I'm writing this from near the site of the Pig War -- the last armed contest between the US and Canada, and, I think, the only one we won. With help from Kaiser Wilhelm I. And George Pickett. (Who, I had not realized, survived the famous charge. At least That Flag is nowhere in evidence here.)
176: Honestly, we haven't had the opportunity to deal with it. I and my housemate both have deadlines in the next day or two, and by the time we're done doing that stuff in the evening, it's 9 p.m. and it's obviously too dark to deal with the closet.
163,164:Real Texans only eat soups that ooze out of the bowl at them, and can only be pacified with liquid nitrogen.
Until reading this thread, I'd never even heard of the idea of switching hands to wield the knife. I'm left-handed, and my fork is in my left hand and my knife is in my right, always. I've never noticed anyone else hand-switching, which I guess just means I must be terribly unobservant. Now I'm going to feel awkwardly self-conscious about this, and probably unable to use a knife at all (paralyzed by fear of using it in my right; unpracticed with it in my left). I'm may have to start insisting on sushi for all professional meals.
179: In other words, denial. That sounds like a good plan because they will probably go away if they get a chance.
The fork/knife switching thing is dumb, although now I'm wondering whether I'm hurting my career prospects by not doing it.
181: You should probably just switch to two kinves, one in each hand. Food on plate? STAB! Nom nom nom.
I suppose it's possible that dinner companions just assume that I'm a civilized, right-handed European.
183: hurting my career prospects by not doing it.
What? Will someone please explain how utensil switching is supposed to be the right thing to do? Seriously, I was trained away from it, not by my parents, but at [Ivy-League] college. I don't understand.
I recently read a line in a novel about somebody showing good table manners by dipping his spoon into the soup away from himself. I was flabbergasted by the counter-intuitiveness of this, which of course would suggest that it is very raffiné indeed. Has anyone ever heard of this point of etiquette?
If you want to be seriously european in your table manners, you have to learn the art of using a bit of baguette as a knife, in your right hand, to push food onto your fork.
187: Yes. It's too affected by far, and I imagine would raise an eyebrow or two in anything other than dinner with the Queen, but I've heard of it.
I was taught 187 as a kid, although I can't say I recall it being well-observed. It does cut against the possibility of hunched, ravenous scooping.
187: Yes, and when your soup bowl is almost empty, you're supposed to tip it away from yourself, while you maneuver your spoon at a downward slope, also away from yourself. It seems like it's a procedure that should involve a periscope but it's not really any harder than doing it the intuitive way.
184: that is more traditional. Forks are so new-school.
I gather the idea is to avoid any conceivable spillage onto one's clothing.
Now I want fall to start so I can make onion soup.
Fork switching is American. Eating with a fork in the left hand is an abomination, sinister, or European. Take your pick.
193: I had never thought of that. You're probably right. I hope it doesn't look too affected, because it's what I try to do.
OT: Can somebody think of a plausible reason for buying a 1987 Hovercraft?
Hand-switching strikes me as something like linguistic over-correction. It's wrong, in any case.
The reason has to sound less stupid than the real reason (because I want one).
So you're looking for the practical reason to get a personal hovercraft? Uh, you're trying to get a leg up on your complete Hammacher-Schlemmer 1987 catalog collection?
201: This is, I think, a much bigger hovercraft that those. The new ones made by the same company have 60 HP engines.
191.--Ok, when I am served a clear consummé, which contains the distilled essences of enough food to feed a family of four for three days, and am dining in my best dry-clean-only silk dress and in the presence of the Queen, then I will endeavor to scoop my soup away from myself.
My usual soup technique usually involves great hunks of bread and slurping and soup droplets all over my keyboard. But I'm usually quite presentable in public, I swear!
One practical reason not to get a personal hovercraft is that you're saving up for a personal submarine. Though perhaps in your area the hovercraft is more appealing.
195: Fork switching is American. Eating with a fork in the left hand is an abomination, sinister, or European.
I figured that part out, but thanks, Charley.
Moby, could you link to a picture of the hovercraft in question?
"saucered and blowed" -- so you don't need to save your breath to cool your porridge.
206: No, I can't. It is a Craigslist ad without a photo or even a description. All it says is "1987 Hoverstar Hovercraft" and that they want $1,500 which seems too much given that the new ones run about than 10 times that. Googling hasn't found a picture of one that old.
It's a ratted-out hovercraft that doesn't run.
I can't figure out why you wouldn't switch hands and keep the dominant instrument in your dominant hand. Nobody taught me, that just came natural.
max
['It's so much easier to cut that way, especially with big knives.']
Anyway, compared to a personal submarine, a hovercraft is probably cheap and safe. Plus, a hovercraft is probably the safest way to go ice fishing. You don't care if the ice breaks or not.
I recently read a line in a novel about somebody showing good table manners by dipping his spoon into the soup away from himself.
For some reason this put me in mind of the ridiculously adorable (and adorably ridiculous) scenes of butler Arthur Treacher teaching orphan Shirley Temple manners in Curly Top. I can't see videos right now, but I'm sure someone has put the finger bowl scene up on YouTube.
butler Arthur Treacher
Is that how those fish places got their name? Do they still exist?
Plus, a hovercraft is probably the safest way to go ice fishing.
Do you go ice fishing a lot?
212: Wiki says the answer to my questions are 'yes, but they don't know if he got paid' and 'yes.'
213: I've never done it even once.
Have you considered the idea that you may not really need a hovercraft?
And that is what she said. Maybe the yurt will sound more reasonable now.
I can't figure out why you wouldn't switch hands and keep the dominant instrument in your dominant hand.
I'm not sure what the rationale would be. Well, when you're switching utensils in the middle of the operation, you're sort of waving your utensils around in the air, however briefly. Certainly, if you're eating a steak or something that requires a cut before every bite, you're doing this switching more or less constantly, which is maybe a distraction?
I admit, someone who doesn't do the utensil-switching usually registers for me as a quieter (?) dinner companion. But it's not a huge deal.
One suspects that it's just a stylistic difference. Yet I do sort of favor non-utensil switching.
Miss Manners claims that the "American" style was originally what was done in Europe and it subsequently evolved to the "European" style everywhere but in the US. I am also a lefty and do not switch.
Maybe the yurt will sound more reasonable now.
Yurts are great! One of my best vacations was spent in a yurt in rural Alaska. Of course, it did have electricity and running water.
I can't figure out why you wouldn't switch hands and keep the dominant instrument in your dominant hand.
Amen.
220.1: My yurt plan breaks down because I need land, ideally near some wilderness, on which to put the thing.
Miss Manners also says "yes" to eating asparagus with fingers. Wikipedia lists the soup spoon tilted toward the back rule for American table manners. Communicating only by means of short declarative sentences shows good manners.
Russians pour their tea onto a saucer to cool it. They also use glasses rather than cups for hot liquids. This is why we won the Cold War.
I can't figure out why you wouldn't switch hands and keep the dominant instrument in your dominant hand.
Because it's easier to not be constantly switching.
Anyway, I keep the fork in my left hand if I am using both a fork and knife. However, I cheat a bit and use my right hand if I'm eating something that doesn't require a knife. I use the side of my fork to cut way more things than would be allowed by Miss Manners or Mr. Those Are Nice Plates, Asshole.
I was once told that once you've picked up the knife, it's verboten to put it back down again. True or not?
(I have manners somewhere below Lizardbreath's kids. Just not a high priority for my parents, I guess. I'm sure I'm offending people left and right, but...eh.)
223: Weren't their glasses continually shattering? Are Russian tea glasses as thick as Mason jars? Or was there, as Kennedy might have warned, a Pyrex gap?
I think the rule is that you're not allowed to put down the knife until you've drawn blood with it.
215 is nonsense. What the hell is the point of having $1500 if you can't buy a hovercraft with it?
I was brought up to switch hands when cutting/eating, but nobody was super-strict about it. In fact, I don't even remember ever being explicitly told to do it. I have to consciously remind myself nowadays that not switching is more rational.
I would like to play the "quiet in the cinema" scene from Tampopo at the beginning of every movie, ever. It is much better than all those moronic sound effects ones they have nowadays, which are just like more advertising that everyone ignores. BE QUIET OR A NATTILY-DRESSED GANGSTER WILL MAKE YOU BE QUIET! (Having said that, I do miss the old Skyway Theater here in downtown Mpls., where the running commentary from the rude fellows in the back was often far superior to the actual film playing. Somebody should make a TV show of that.)
225: I was once told that once you've picked up the knife, it's verboten to put it back down again. True or not?
I realize that Standpipe's other blog is normally reserved for the explanation of jokes, but I do hope we don't need to take this to Standpipe's other blog.
if you're eating a steak or something that requires a cut before every bite
Is this how one eats steak? Is it verboten to just cut it all up into pieces all at once and then go to town? Is it evident that I haven't had steak since I was probably like twelve?
231: I don't get this. Are you implying that someone was playing a joke on me? I don't think so, they seemed quite serious about it. (And yes, infelicitous wording on my part - that the knife should stay in your hand until that course is done with, is what they meant.) They were English, if that tells you anything.
My yurt plan breaks down because I need land, ideally near some wilderness, on which to put the thing.
You don't have to actually own the land, Moby. A friend can lend it to you.
(That was actually the case with the yurt I stayed in; white people were not legally allowed to own land there so it had to be lent.)
229: Apparently, the mortgage or retirement.
234: If I save my hovercraft money, buying five to ten acres in the mountains isn't that far out of range.
232: I recall reading an article about Dick Cheney that mentioned that he cuts his steak up into little bits before taking a bite. I think that tells you all you need to know about that dining practice.
I'm sure we could find you a place to pitch your yurt on the family land up in the Yukon. My cousins-once-removed will enjoy your yurt.
Thanks, but I want the yurt where I can go to it every weekend for the whole summer. Like a summer house, but cheaper and greener and fabric-ier.
Is it verboten to just cut it all up into pieces all at once and then go to town?
Yeah, you're not supposed to do that. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's verboten, but it's not preferred.
The same with buttering bread (should you be buttering it): best not to butter an entire half-roll and then take bites from it. Rather, tear off bite-sized pieces and butter each one.
Whether bread or meat, whether peasant bread dipped in olive oil, or buttered, or steak or salmon, always bite-sized at a time. Thus it is said.
Is it evident that I haven't had steak since I was probably like twelve?
I think I was about nine when my parents declared that practice verboten and gave me the choice of either doing it the weird American way or like normal rational people.
fabric-ier
Who's this Fabrice character anyway?
233: I don't get this. Are you implying that someone was playing a joke on me?
No no. Just that the idea that you shouldn't put your knife down once you've picked it up is kind of ridiculous. So, no.
226 I've poured hot tea and coffee into glasses and not had any problems, but I decline any responsibility for cuts and burns in case anyone has a different experience.
I recall reading an article about Dick Cheney that mentioned that he cuts his steak up into little bits before taking a bite. I think that tells you all you need to know about that dining practice.
Other tips from the Dick Cheney Etiquette Manual: It is rude to eat the beating hearts of your dining companions. Unless they're Muslim or something.
I don't think I've ever had a good result from pouring tea into a glass, but I suppose it might make a difference whether the water is boiling hot, as it is when you're brewing tea in the cup, or merely scalding hot, as from a coffeepot or teapot. It probably also makes a difference whether the glasses are preheated.
My glasses are probably just incredibly flimsy. You get what you pay for, I suppose.
243: They had a reasonable explanation - one, the knife doesn't really have a place to go, once it's been dirtied and it's awkward to have it sitting out on the rim of your plate, to possibly skeedaddle across the table; two, placing it on a fancy tablecloth is uncouth. I'm betting it was idiosyncratic to their household.
247: Too many of The Smith's albums around the house and you start to make life difficult for yourself on purpose.
The Smith's
One of them had a side project?
it's awkward to have it sitting out on the rim of your plate, to possibly skeedaddle across the table
This seems silly to me. Are we are on a yacht, in rough waters, or all drunk, that our placement on the edge of the plate is troublesome? Placing it on the tablecloth is probably dispreferred, but otherwise, I don't see a problem. alameida is the expert here.
I once got confused about The Doors and The Smiths and kept saying "Jim Morrissey." People thought I was making a joke, for a while.
||
So I finally looked up the address for the proposed Cordoba House. It's 51 Park Place, NY 10007: two and a half full blocks from the most expansionist notion of the WTC. It's closer to the Chambers St. subway than the WTC subway. If you know the neighborhood, you know it's on a comparatively quiet side street a bit up from the ABSOLUTE TOURIST INSANITY that the WTC site has become. The howling monkeys are describing a despoiling of their sacred site that just doesn't have any geographic relation to the truth. This is all so, so depressing.
|>
Gingrich has said that anything below the Park is too close. Maybe it's the suburban thing; in most places two Downtown NYC blocks away is 'right next to'. Or they're just bigoted, racist assholes who really don't care about anything except that it's a nice opportunity to blow off and rally the base.
The English are famous for their knife fights. I assume the reason you don't put the knife down is so you're not caught at an unguarded moment; they just told you the other story so you wouldn't feel threatened.
2 and 1/2 blocks is certainly "right next to" in my way of thinking. You wouldn't move the car if you were going that far. I forget how NYC blocks go, but that is like 1/4 of a mile or less, isn't it?
I mean, if I had to carry heavy things from the car to the mosque, I might move my car 2 and 1/2 blocks. Or if it was raining.
You wouldn't move the car if you were going that far.
You wouldn't move the car regardless of where you're going in Manhattan, if for no other reason than if you're a New Yorker you probably don't have one.
Avenue blocks or street blocks?
The grid doesn't exist down there, it's all little tiny densely placed narrow streets flanked by huge buildings.
No, it's not really far, but the WTC site itself is about four or five blocks squared. Who knows what the final design's footprint will be; it's possible that the Cordoba House will end up being more like four blocks away. These are old-style blocks, though, packed with twists and character and very different kinds of business. (If I remember correctly, across the street will be an incredibly posh hotel/condo building, which had the most spectacular private tulip beds I saw in the city.) Lots and lots of things are three blocks away from some part of the WTC site. The financial district would grind to a halt if everything within that radius was really treated as sacred ground. Enough.
Wait, Moby wants to let the Muslim people have automobiles now, too?! I'm outraged.
265: [Chevy Impala joke omitted.]
266: I drove the new Impala a few years back and they were pretty nice for the price and being made by GM.
Gingrich has said that anything below the Park is too close.
I'm trying to come up with any reasonable choice of what "the Park" means here, and failing. Am I just too ignorant of NYC lingo?
Hmm. Google says he mentioned Central Park. But that's insane. I mean, a different sort of insane from criticizing the Cordoba House to begin with. Surely there already are mosques or Islamic cultural centers below Central Park? Probably several?
The financial district would grind to a halt if everything within that radius was really treated as sacred ground.
This is suddenly sounding not so bad.
Gingrich is from the real America; he has no understanding of NYC geography.
271: I bet he'd get lost in Omaha just a quickly.
Or maybe Newt actually meant South Park Drive in Tilden Park.
I'm just going to leave that one unexplained.
"Born in a barn" is, well, Jesus.
Not all Mexicans live in Barns, Bob.
To the OP, prim should leave a handwritten note in an expensive envelope on her desk: "Stop talking with your mouth full, or you go to your room right now, love, Mom."
I've never understood how to do the fork switching thing properly, though I do an approximation when not in polite company (i.e. most of the time) because of my disabled left hand. Mrs y, who lived in the US until she was 15, doesn't understand how to do it either.
I've never even heard of changing hands or whatever to cut meat.
I was once told that once you've picked up the knife, it's verboten to put it back down again. True or not?
You can only put it down again after it's tasted blood.
A book I had as a kid said that hot liquids are more likely to break a thick glass than a thin one, because of differential expansion within the glass. But now some coffee shops seem to be serving latte drinks in thick glass mugs routinely (or if they're really hip, mason jars), so maybe that was a big fat lie.
I recently read a line in a novel about somebody showing good table manners by dipping his spoon into the soup away from himself.
I can beat that. A friend of mine was recently a) hauled up by her parents for not dipping the spoon into the soup away from herself and b) told that this sort of behaviour was probably why she hadn't found herself a husband yet.
No, I am not commenting from the year 1902.
The switching-hands thing I only knew about from "The Cruel Sea", never having watched Americans eat very closely. Seems a very odd and awkward way to eat.
I recently read a line in a novel about somebody showing good table manners by dipping his spoon into the soup away from himself.
You mean you didn't know you had to do that? You'll be eating peas with a knife next (de rigeur in the 18th century, but gone down market by mid 19th). Or using a fish knife (up to the late 19th, you apparently ate fish with a fork in each hand, and fish knives were an innovation used by parvenus and new money).
I usually drink soup out of a mug. Slurping merrily.
In keeping with my ambiguous nationality, I both do and don't switch hands. If I cut up a lot of pieces of whatever I'm eating, I'll usually switch to eat them. But I don't cut up lots of pieces nearly as often as more American Americans seem to. So most of the time I don't switch.
Oh, and I do the soup thing as well.
"While Catherine de Medici dazzled the French court with her sumptuous banquets of unusual dishes, the greatest shock must have been her introduction of the fork. Spoons and knives had been used before, but to dine with a fork was revolutionary."
The last word there made me chuckle.
OT: how does one best eat a hundred-year-old egg?
^^me on new work computer, sorry
how does one best eat a hundred-year-old egg?
That's a question for Brock.
If Brock doesn't know, my guess is that you eat it like a regular egg, but that you stay close to the bathroom for the rest of the day.
you stay close to the bathroom for the rest of the day
The hardest part is getting in the hundred celebratory fist-pump gestures before anyone else comes in and takes your stall.
I'm amused from the Wikipedia article at how its various Chinese names have nothing to do with age. Superimposed Orientalism?
290: Everyone knows which stall is mine.
But I don't cut up lots of pieces nearly as often as more American Americans seem to
Do you mean cutting up many pieces and not eating each one after cutting it, but waiting to eat until you've cut them all? Do people actually do that?
If you want to get the pieces of uniform size, you have to mark out a grid and to all the cutting at one time.
This is why Americans are so fond of barbeque, because the grid comes ready marked.
As in so many cases, lasers are most helpful here.
The paper cutters with the arm that swings down work very well, but just don't look right for a fancy dinner.
If you get them in silver with your monogram engraved, it's better.
Yes I read wikipedia already -- and indeed ate one already, on Saturday* -- I just thought the wide-travelled and daring folks at Unfogged might have their own preferred or family recipes.
*I ate it like a hard-boiled egg straight out of its leathery membrane, which is quite hard going: it's a flavour that could do with, um, contrast, shall we say. To my considerable glee, the Chinese Supermarket on Lisle Street sells them in ordinary eggboxes, right next to normal eggs. I have two left.
I think I've only had 100 year old egg once, and it came in a bowl with some sort of thick gloopy sauce poured over it. I remember it as being very nice, but I think it'd been de-membraned already.
Now I'm feeling bad about that time when someone offered me one of those eggs when I was a teenager and I acted visibly repulsed. Though I think that may have been the desired response.
We established at the last London meetup that, as well knife-fighting and limbo, tierce lists "eating anything, no matter how superficially gross" as one of his talents.
At the picnic one friend ate half of one and claims he got some kind of chemical burn on his tongue. Another ate (and liked) half, but gave the other half to her dog, which loved it. A third took hers home with her. She was hassled by a nasty drunk on the tube, so she quietly slipped it into his pocket as a punishment. Still in its shell, but ready to hassle him in return, at some nice point in the future.
Egg-pocket fu! Venerable and ancient defensive technique.
That would probably work even better with your standard soft cooked egg, especially if you cracked the shell just slightly.
302: now I'm not quite so sorry about missing it.
re: 306
That was just the Ethiopian haggis.
Do you mean cutting up many pieces and not eating each one after cutting it, but waiting to eat until you've cut them all? Do people actually do that?
Yes.
Ethiopian haggis sounds extremely intriguing.
307: the tasteless 1980s-vintage joke to fit this punchline has not turned up yet.
Although, iirc, you said it wasn't as spicy as actual haggis?
No, it wasn't especially spicy.
The "imperceptible yet forceful taste of liver" is a new one for me.
313: Is it possible for something to be "imperceptible yet forceful"? Maybe, only if you believe in homeopathy?
All kinds of forces are imperceptible if the force isn't being directly applied to the perceiver. The people at my picnic who didn't eat a hundred-year-old egg but nevertheless declared it disgusting were also responding to an imperceptible force.
"Imperceptible farce" is a pretty good description of Epic Movie.
310. Although I love both cooked offal and raw beef, I can't say that raw liver does it for me - or rather what it does for me is induce me to send the plate back.
I think the one served in London was cooked rather than raw. I can't say I'd fancy raw offal, either. Although I quite like most offal if cooked nicely.
of course you can put the knife down after you start (pace stilgar). you just make sure it's not at 4 o'clock, thereby confusing people into thinking you're done. or rather, it could be at 4 o'clock but the fork would have to be at 8 or whatever. I have an amazing set of fish forks (and knives, so I guess it's post victorian) with ivory handles. originally argento dorato, I think, but now mostly silver. it's moping around in a storage unit outside savannah, along with all my wedding china and all my LPs. sad. if only I could legally drive I would go get them and send them to myself (I'm in SC).
originally argento dorato
I spot read this as "dorito" before reading the actual comment and thought, "Jesus, those Doritos people just don't stop with the crazy new flavors!"
We established at the last London meetup that, as well knife-fighting and limbo, tierce lists "eating anything, no matter how superficially gross" as one of his talents.
What about inherently gross things? Or does tierce not admit to the existence of same?
If even I won't eat it, it must be inherently gross.
Pickled eggs are the food of the gods. To be eaten with a packet of plain crisps (chips) and a pint of good English or Scottish beer. Drop the egg in the bag of crisps and shake well before eating.
I think it is pretty impossible to get an adult to change much of anything in the area of table manners or whatever.
My sister doesn't seem to wash her clothes enough, so they sort of smell. (This wasn't a problem before she started dating her sloppy on again off again boyfriend.) A bunch of us went to the beach, and I said something about having time to shower before she went to some appointment or audition. She said that she didn't mind. I said that others might, then she smelled herself and said that she didn't smell. But she does. She generally takes showers, so I'm not exactly sure where it comes from--though she won't take one if she hasn't gone running yet--even if she's not going to run until 12 or 1.
I worry that it's hurting her professionally, but she won't hear it.
Actually, in this situation, I kind of wonder whether a relative stranger/friend with whom she doesn't have history wouldn't be more effective. I'm just her bossy older sister.
