Re: Sunyata

1

Stupid psychopharmacy.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:59 AM
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Um.

I am trying to work up some sympathy.

I mean, sympathy for recurring illness and medication allergies? Yes. Those suck. Those are terrible. Awful.

But four minutes vs. one? The first time? Maybe you can look at it as an opportunity for variety? Like, things change, now there are new avenues to be explored?


Posted by: But | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:01 AM
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Weird. "But" was in fact me.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:02 AM
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2,3: I think you forgot a 't'.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:02 AM
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Do we already know what the chronic illness is somewhere in the fucking archives?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:03 AM
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You know, I put up the link in 1 because I like the song, but hadn't actually watched the video (which isn't by the band). I, uh, hadn't intended to attach a bunch of suicide imagery.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:04 AM
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Also, it would seem that the point at which it's an unacceptable side effect is when it's costing you more than benefiting you. But usually the unspoken question in a situation like that is that the costs are mostly born by you and whomever you're having sex with, and the benefits go to everyone in your life (including you, obvs, but I'm also thinking of anyone who depends on you who'd be upset if you were in bed, in pain, all the time).

Dude, just keep having sex. Probs it's temporary, and if not you'll find a workaround you like. Plus you get to do the research! It's an excuse to have way more sex.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:05 AM
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Four minutes is still practically foreplay IME.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:06 AM
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I knew a girl in college who came every time she did crunches. I would never leave my room.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:08 AM
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I guess I meant psychopharmacology, maybe I'll fix it.
5: I don't talk about it very much, it's a mysterious immune system disorder similar to my sister's lupus (and my mom's, and grandmothers, etc.). terrible stomach pain but nothing apparently functionally wrong, it's inflammation of some kind and fixed by steroids, mostly, but you can't take them all the time because they make you feel psycho and you will grow a hump. chronic fatigue syndrome maybe, by which they mean to say, we don't know what the fuck is wrong with you, lady, and you're probably crazy. sadly my older daughter is really in a lot of pain every day and they seem reluctant to give her real pain medication. she started complaining about tummy pain before she could talk, by pointing :-(


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:08 AM
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I don't understand the problem.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:08 AM
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I would never leave my room.

It's funny, I think this phrase is used every time, and I'm talking without exception, autofellatio is mentioned among male human beings. Try it sometime! Mentioning it, I mean! Except maybe that'll be awkward to mention autofellatio in certain contexts, so use your judgment!


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:16 AM
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it takes way longer for me to have an orgasm. plus maybe I only have 4 during an ordinary sexual session instead of 7. that's the problem. also, I just feel less like having sex.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:16 AM
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9: She must have had fantastic muscle tone.

Like the joke about the head trauma patient who complains to his doctor that he comes every time he sneezes.

"Is there anything I can take for it?"

"Pepper?"


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:19 AM
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I feel like it's heading towards me not having an orgasm every time I have sex, and that's just not cool. why bother?


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:20 AM
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she started complaining about tummy pain before she could talk, by pointing

Ooof. Heart-breaking.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:20 AM
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10: oh, that is CRAPPY. I also have a disorder corrected by steroids, but I don't make enough of them in the first place, so no hump for me. I do, however, have annoying issues with inflammation, though not as bad as you've described. (And a medical alert necklace! That had to be a dogtag in order to fit all the words on it, so I feel kinda like a dick wearing it. But that is neither here nor there.) This may be annoying and out of place, in that way that you weren't asking for advice and have undoubtedly thought about this a lot more than I have, but, who knows: have you thought about cutting grains, dairy and legumes out of your diet? Super annoying, I know. Not a whole lot of data, and the whole "PALEO CULT DO A WORKOUT!" thing makes it sound crazy, but newer data apparently suggests there might be something there. (I bought Food and Western Disease by Staffan Lindeberg, it's true.)


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:22 AM
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plus maybe I only have 4 during an ordinary sexual session instead of 7.

Now you know what it's like living without a foreskin.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:24 AM
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4 orgasms in one day? That's a huge number. Congrats on your luck.

Unrelated, this is a parody, right?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:26 AM
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17: actually, my husband convinced me we should try the whole restricted diet thing for a month and see if it got any better. I have tried but in a haphazard way and gave it up when I didn't see results. it'll be easier if my daughter and I do it together, so we're going to try november. I'm going to sleep y'all, solve all my problems for me kthxbye.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:27 AM
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18: And we can last 4 minutes instead of 1.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:27 AM
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One more for the obvious, but gluten is the component of grains that causes freaky autoimmune symptoms for many people. Rice noodles, but you've probably already done this.

For the actual subject why bother? Faking it is the new making it is the glib answer.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:30 AM
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Unrelated, this is a parody, right?

Sadly, no.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:30 AM
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you guys aren't taking me seriously. I'm going to pout.

pout


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:31 AM
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It is possible to live on four orgasms a day.

But: I get the whole, this is part of me why is it being taken away thing. Blows. I think the "what's the point?" kind of speaks to the solution: there are many people who don't come nearly that easily, and some who don't come at all, or well, or whatever, and who manage to find sex satisfying. (Although I will confess I've always wondered if they're kind of just saying that? Like, if that's one of those polite lies? Then I feel bad about it. Still, I don't think it can be impossible or even terribly difficult to enjoy sex w/o coming, since plenty of people report that they do.)

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is find out what those people are talking about.

And then come four more times.

(I'm not trying to be obnoxious, really. Also, you must be really fun to have sex with. Can I say that? It's objectively true, right?)


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:34 AM
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OK, less glibly, maybe spending more time setting the table as a complement to the entree would mitigate the frustration.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:35 AM
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Just based on my own (thin, surely) knowledge (from friends and family) on known agitators for lupus and related auto-immune disorders, I thought beef was very much to be avoided, due to a particular amino acid . . . looking up . . . ah, two amino acids: tyrosine and phyenylalanine. So no beef and no dairy.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:36 AM
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19: Is your problem with it the content or the (excruciating) writing?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:39 AM
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I'm taking you seriously! Maybe my previously cited strategy of watching movies / reading about people who are having a worse week than I am (in my case I picked Werner Herzog, bc I fucking love insane Germans - the cuddly kind, not the genocidal kind) is not helpful?

Also, wrt restricted diet: I had to be very strict about it, and it took just over a month to start seeing the best results. Just put the whole family on it. What are they gonna do, argue with you? "Would you rather deal with me when I'm in pain and can't come? Really, think about that. You can have pasta, or you can have me be sane."


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:39 AM
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30

And sure, buy a vibrator.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:40 AM
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re: 25

I've discussed this before, but I used to know someone who apparently never had orgasms during sex. She claimed to had them while dreaming/lucid-dreaming but never while awake. Despite that she had a pretty high sex drive, and was adamant that she really liked fucking. We haven't been in touch for a while, and aren't close enough now that I could just come out and ask her if things have changed, but at the time she'd been sexually active for a fair number of years, had tried a lot of stuff, and lots of partners, and was adamant that it just didn't happen for her [but was none the less fun]. I'm pretty sure she wasn't in denial about it.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:40 AM
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32

I'm not taking you seriously. I'm sorry. At least not the slightly-less-orgasmic part of you.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:41 AM
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but I used to know someone who apparently never had orgasms during sex.

Of the people I've discussed it with, there's been a decently high percentage who would say this.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:43 AM
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yeah, the whole family's going to try it. yay quinoa!

I couldn't find the post in the archives in which we debated whether there was any point in having sex and not having an orgasm. apo can do it. good night for reals.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:43 AM
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having sex and not having an orgasm. apo can do it.

...laydeez.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:45 AM
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34.1 -> 30?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:45 AM
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37

Also, I thought everyone already owned vibrators. Seriously, I kind of think you're joking.

And there is an element of poor little rich girl, yes, but are rich girl tears any less bitter?

Well, probably. Probably they taste like truffles.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:46 AM
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25 aaand, I brushed my teeth. well, whether it's fun or not, everyone who has sex with me gets to feel like they are amazing and awesome and uniquely pleasurable, and everyone likes that. until they read this thread.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:46 AM
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38: Sooner if you take their watch.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:47 AM
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40

Miss Jackson if you're nasty.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:48 AM
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37: There is a story in the Times about a luxury condo building whose first two floors are the US headquarters of a truffle company. One would think this was yummy, but apparently not. No one can sell or rent their apartments because the whole joint smells like garbage.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:51 AM
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I once had sex with a woman who had multiple clitoral hoods, and there was this resonant frequency effect that was pretty cool. I wanted to, like, graph it.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:51 AM
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41: The Times is parody at this point, right? There was also an article about feuding spin classes. Like, they did reporting. On a spin class feud.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:53 AM
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(in my case I picked Werner Herzog, bc I fucking love insane Germans - the cuddly kind, not the genocidal kind)

Rainer-Werner Fassbinder's segment of Deutschland im Herbst has him being insane and not so much cuddly as flabby. You may watch this and never have sex again, if you're either attracted to men or else a man who might worry that you'll one day look like that.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:57 AM
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alameida, I am taking you seriously and can relate in many respects but don't really want to talk about it because then I'll get depressed about it again. Blah. Sorry.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:57 AM
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41: Well, yeah, with all those pigs rooting around.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:58 AM
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Mrs. Van Buren has a similar problem with her meds, but her version is one people might actually sympathize with. She went from being able to easily have one orgasm in a reasonable time frame (say 5-15 minutes) to really struggling to even have one. She's come to rely on a heavy duty vibrator, which helps a lot but doesn't always get the job done.

It was worst in the first few months she started the prescription. IIRC, she switched to a different drug that had the same side effect but milder.


Posted by: Martin Van Buren | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:00 AM
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41: Is it really a fact that truffles smell like garbage? I started buying more fragrant mushrooms as a cooking experiment and my husband started complaining that the kitchen smelled like it was rotting. I thought he was just being dramatic.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:00 AM
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49

42: multiple clitoral hoods

Did they hang out on the street corner, singing doo-wop songs?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:04 AM
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If we're looking for a way to sympathize, the fact that it seems to be getting worse would work for me. It's hard to get too sympathetic over "My orgasmic capacity has gone from TEH AWESOMZ!!11!1! to merely pretty darn satisfying," but if you add in a downward trend, that'd worry me. I don't know where I'd put the tradeoff between a satisfying sex life and constant pain -- it's a hard problem to think through.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:06 AM
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51

I should have figured that "rooting for truffles" is what the kids are calling something or other these days. On topic, no less.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:07 AM
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52

I seem to remember that in the earlier thread, the idea that sex without orgasm was pointless was the juvenile, closed-minded and phallocentric position held by people like me but not by any women.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:07 AM
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49: Actually there were seven of them. I liked to imagine them as urbanized dwarves. She did not.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:12 AM
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Actually there were seven of them.

Good heavens. I'm hoping you worked a "dance of the seven veils" reference in there somewhere.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:17 AM
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On the "sex can be just fine without orgasm" front, I can see how that could make sense. I come pretty easily (not Alameida-class, but not that far off), but my pre-orgasmic plateau state is quite high -- I get a fairly long continuous period of feeling really very good that resolves in an orgasm that's an additional jolt, but not qualitatively more pleasurable (and then usually I'm back on for another trip round, if my partner isn't done yet). If I were getting to that plateau state and then not actually coming, sex would still be very pleasurable, and not wildly different from the way it is now.

(I have a certain amount of weird guilt/insecurity about orgasm faking because of this. I'm fairly vocal during sex, but peak moanwrithing (to bring out a coinage from the archives) isn't necessarily when I'm actually coming. I've found myself wondering (a) if my partner knows when I'm coming rather than merely very excited (I hear you say "why don't you just talk about it," but think about that for a moment: it's not like I have film of the encounter with timestamps that would make it simple to unambiguously determine whether or not he was confused and even with film, I'm not sure I'd know from the outside) and (b) if I should be consciously managing the moanwrithing such that it more accurately corresponds to the moment of orgasm. And then I think that would be insane and stop worrying about it for awhile.)


Posted by: Abigail Adams | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:18 AM
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52: Actually, Bitch, specifically, was agreeing with you about that.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:19 AM
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57

Mom?!?


Posted by: John Quincy Adams | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:19 AM
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The first joke didn't go over so well, so I kind of shut up.

I have plenty more stories of sexual mishaps involving humor being mistaken for insensitivity. Or me actually being insensitive. Whichever.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:19 AM
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55: You could try saying, "I'm coming! I'm coming!" at the appropriate moment. I've often seen such captions in certain gentlemen's engravings I've had the liberty to inspect, but I found them most unconvincing.


Posted by: Martin van Buren | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:39 AM
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50 nails it. It isn't that al is asking for sympathy because she gets more orgasms in the time of a longish rock song than many (most?) people can aspire to if they keep at it all night. It's this bit: "also, I just feel less like having sex."

That's terrible. I mean that's seriously a reason to try out everything you can think of instead of the dreaded drug. The obvious diet related anti-immune things have been mentioned, but have you discussed this kind of approach with a sensible doctor, who might be more plugged in than a bunch of slackers on the internet?

Also, the poor little girl. For fucks sake you risk averse medical tosspots, give her something to stop her hurting! I know doctors socially. They take 6 aspirin at the first sign of an eye strain headache. Why do you hate your patients?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:41 AM
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Wasn't there a Victorian Orgasmic Cries generator somewhere on the web?


Posted by: Abigail Adams | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:41 AM
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60: I forgot about that aspect of Mrs. Van Buren's symptoms. The first drug really kind of killed her sexual response. It was nearly impossible for her to come and sex in general just didn't feel very good. She said it made her vagina feel like a wet paper sack. Which was horrifying. The new drug is really much, much better.


Posted by: Martin van Buren | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:48 AM
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I sympathize with anyone suffering relative depravation -- I really do, and I hope that A feels better and gets better.

With that said, in the internet age, there really should be a word for "boasting, thinly veiled as a mildly self-deprecating anecdote." I feel like at least 50% of Facebook posts take this form -- "Yikes, should have picked a better title for the lecture I'm about to give." It's fairly common in real life as well, as when a woman at church asked us to pray for her problem being a success-obssessed workaholic.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:48 AM
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boasting, thinly veiled as a mildly self-deprecating anecdote

HR flunky: What is your least desirable character trait?

Interviewee: I am a workoholic.

HR flunky: When can you start?


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:53 AM
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I should have figured that "rooting for truffles" is what the kids are calling something or other these days.

I assume this urban area is in Provence.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:53 AM
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60: my own experience with doctors is...well. Ok. So my own medical thing happens to be ridiculously rare, and they have historically gotten PISSED when you point out that you happen to know more about this one particular thing than they do, bc a) you actually have it, and have had reason to read about it, and b) it's not their specialty, bc it's no one's specialty, bc it's so rare. Like, they often take it super personally when they're wrong, as though it invalidates all of that painful schooling and thus their identity. Or something. Obviously there are exceptions, but I have found them to be just that: exceptions. (This might have something to do with the high rate of job dissatisfaction among medical doctors? Would def suck to go through a bajillion years of school and acquire a mountain of debt only to find you don't actually like the thing you've trained to do.)

Point being: In my experience doctors do not tend to exhibit a whole lot of openness to experience, and sometimes this negatively affects their medical advice, particularly in cases which are outside the norm, and it sounds like al's is outside the norm. In those situations, I think it's worth it to do your own research.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:55 AM
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continuing 66: I get that it could be annoying to have a patient correct you, but dude. Dude. It's my health. I'm not going to be politely deferential when your error could seriously fuck me up (or in one case, kill me) just because you suffered through residency.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:59 AM
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68

YOUR IMPERTINENCE HAS BEEN NOTED IN YOUR MEDICAL RECORDS.


Posted by: OPINIONATED DOCTORS | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 11:03 AM
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I am male and have had to fake an orgasm. True story. Thank god for sex in the shower because otherwise it would have been pretty unconvincing.


Posted by: Woodrow Wilson | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 11:05 AM
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When I was little, my aunt, who was in law school at the time, and thus would be able to do this, managed to bribe me into a night of good behavior (one! in years of babysitting me! I tormented her) by promising to locate and destroy my Permanent Record. She made life more difficult for school officials, however.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 11:09 AM
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Remember that makes me feel less bad about luring her into the Natural history museum and playing a really skilled game of Hide until she produced the desired snacks, however.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 11:10 AM
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if my partner knows when I'm coming rather than merely very excited

So, this is a variation of why don't you just talk about it, but seriously, why don't you just talk about it? Have an experiment. (Um, maybe don't call it that. That sort of takes the sexiness out of it, and in my limited experience there is a great deal of sexiness to close attention being paid to this sort of thing.) Just you as the center of attention, and show him what it looks like when you come. Maybe we're very different physiologically, but there are a whole ton of things that show when I'm orgasming. Of course, it looks like I'm having an epileptic fit sometimes, so maybe you don't actually want that on fully display.

Also, alameida, I'm sorry. That sucks. I am, I will admit, jealous of your abilities, but that doesn't take away from how sucky it is. I am always very cautious about new medications for fear of how they'll affect my sex drive, so I can completely understand why this would be such an issue.


Posted by: Dolly Madison | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 11:21 AM
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25: RTFA.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 11:26 AM
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I don't have time to read the whole thread but I feel like the phrase "orgasmic treadmill" needs to be injected into the discussion.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 11:28 AM
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I am male and have had to fake an orgasm

I am at a loss to come up with a scenario where this would be necessary. If one needs to stop, then stop.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 11:54 AM
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75: I guess I didn't HAVE to but it seemed like the thing to do at the time.


Posted by: Woodrow Wilson | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 11:57 AM
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I'm sure it was very polite of you, Mr. President. Don't want to bruise the girl's ego. But, without getting too graphic, without the release, weren't you still, um you know, hard? That would be difficult to hide in the shower.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:01 PM
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78

Men appear to be more complicated than I was lead to believe.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:06 PM
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OT, but I am going to miss Christine O'Donnell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5aJAyBp_S8&feature=player_embedded

Also Carl Paladino.

Hopefully.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:07 PM
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79: What does that even mean? "Hide your will"? What is that going to do?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:11 PM
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But, without getting too graphic, without the release, weren't you still, um you know, hard?

If Mr Wilson had this experience in the heyday of youth, it's quite possible that the lady in question was familiar with the phenomenon of men who remained, um you know, after the release, even if not for long.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:13 PM
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Maybe we're very different physiologically, but there are a whole ton of things that show when I'm orgasming.

I'm sort of wondering what you're talking about here. There's obviously vaginal contractions, but I could see that getting lost in other motions (that is, obvious under 'laboratory conditions', but not necessarily while, you know, energetically fucking, which is the situation under which possible confusion might arise). Other than that, there's a whole lot of sensation that I'm feeling, but I'm not really sure what would 'show' to an observer/sex partner that's different from what's happening while I'm merely aroused and close to orgasm.


Posted by: Abigail Adams | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:15 PM
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@66,67

Problem is, everyone thinks they know more about their illness/medical condition than their doctor. And the vast majority of them are wrong. So one can certainly understand why most doctors might be a little, ahem, skeptical of the medical claims of their patients. This doesn't mean there aren't plenty of rude and clueless doctors, but it's easy to see why it happens.


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:17 PM
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Hide your lights? Is that also an issue? Light taxes? Whole families of lights, taxed out of their dimmers? I don't understand.

Seriously, she is a gift. In a month she might turn into a scourge, but right now...gift.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:17 PM
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79. Has she packed it in or just said something so flagrantly stupid or evil that even the KKK Tea Party won't excuse it? I can't click through, she does bad things to my blood pressure and I'm an old man.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:17 PM
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79: You may already know this, but it's a playing on what became a sort of internet sensation but in a nonsensical and creepy way.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:18 PM
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86: I know, but like you said, nonsensical and creepy. Even if it did make sense, though, I'm still not sure who she's trying to appeal to with this one. Internet nerds? I guess raising her profile through viral marketing might help her raise money, but I'm pretty sure her profile was sky high already.

I really...so the part of me that thinks the Senate is completely ineffectual is actually really hoping she gets elected. Terrible, I know. But it would be cool to have a Senate with her in it, so long as it was controlled by Democrats, right? Can you imagine, on a weekly basis? God it would be awesome.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:23 PM
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76 gets it right.


Posted by: Wilfrid Laurier | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:25 PM
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77: Heterosexist! Ok, I'll shortly blow my cover at this rate. I can't remember exactly why I went prez to begin with--there's nothing all that shameful in once having (to answer your question) gone through with relations with a guy I was sufficiently not turned on by that I didn't really have to fake the, uh, deflation. It was mostly a matter of hitting pause on the tape loop in my head of more-my-type people I'd been with.


Posted by: Woodrow Wilson | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:26 PM
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I was really responding to Blume's 80. I don't know why I can't ever get numbers right, although the more important thing is that I'm focusing more of my brain on work than on unfogged.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:27 PM
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89. Shit situation. Sorry: I presumed hetero in deference to your presidential id. but retrospectively that probably wasn't cool.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:30 PM
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90.2. Splitter!


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:31 PM
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55: it's not like I have film of the encounter with timestamps that would make it simple to unambiguously determine whether or not he was confused and even with film, I'm not sure I'd know from the outside...

This is an empirical question that demands experimentation, rather than mere speculation. Just sayin.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:33 PM
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89. Guilty. We regret the error. Considering all the possibilities is still a blind spot.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:39 PM
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I am male and have had to fake an orgasm
... I am at a loss to come up with a scenario where this would be necessary. If one needs to stop, then stop.

On preview, pwned, but not exactly because everyone's experience as a unique snowflake is unique, etc.:

Anyway. I've also faked, though I'm not proud of it. As with Mr. Wilson, not being very attracted to the person in question was a big part of it. Combine with the (patriarchal!) expectations that a guy coming is both (a) trivial, such that its lack indicates Medical Issues, and (b) an essential component of a complete het sex act, it just seemed a lot easier to pretend than to stop and have a Conversation about it all.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:40 PM
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86: Can you help me out because I'm utterly confused about what the Christine O'Donnell ad has to do with the rapist joke. Pandagon was making the connection this morning too.

The ad shows a scary man walking down a street who is coming to tax you. So taxing is equated with raping people? I sort of get that, but how is that connected with this guy in Alabama who was trying to protect his sister?


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:41 PM
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91: "Heterosexist!" was 100% in jest.


Posted by: Woodrow Wilson | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:42 PM
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86: I had seen that clip, but I didn't connect the two. And I still don't get what hiding your will has to do with taxes. Like, what, you're going to secretly inherit money and then commit tax fraud? I feel like I'm maybe really not getting what's going on here; apologies for any obtuseness I'm displaying here.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:42 PM
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82: I'm fairly sure everyone is slightly different on this front. I shudder - the vaginal contractions go throughout my body. I tend to tense up just before and then very visibly lose all that tension during the contractions. Also, I go quiet. (Sort of the exact opposite of making an announcement.) This happens pretty much regardless of the situation. I assume that everyone has their own tell-tale signs, though they may well be quite different, and that if you're both actively looking for them in laboratory conditions or not, they'll be easier to spot. And of course, since this is an assumption based on personal experience, I'm probably wrong.


Posted by: Dolly Madison | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:42 PM
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not being very attracted to the person in question was a big part of it

Are you more ashamed of faking it or of sexing a person you were not attracted to? I'm sure we've all had coyote moments, but during the act? A little selfish, no?


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:44 PM
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||
Ok, here I go to actually have The Conversation with my advisor about quitting / taking an official Leave of Absence. Woo!
|>


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:46 PM
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63: This has been explored on 30 Rock (by Jenna of course) and dubbed, "The Back Door Brag." Her first example is, "It's so hard for me to watch American Idol, because I have perfect pitch." A high school acquaintance *only* posts FB statuses of this sort. "Man, I am so tired, I have final pages of three different articles due, and my publisher really needs the galleys of my second book. Luckily, I finished all my grading last weekend."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:47 PM
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101: Be brave, x.!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:48 PM
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101. Best wishes.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:48 PM
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96: (Look, right number!!!) The only connection is that everyone (for a certain set of everyone that involves a whole hell of a lot more people of color than will ever vote for O'Donnell, which is why some people suspect there's a hidden agenda in hoping the ad will go viral) has been saying, "Hide yo' wife, hide yo' kids" and almost no one seems to care about the actual context beyond making fun of Dodson's being/seeming gay.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:49 PM
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Also for 96 & 98, if you're trying to make the ad make sense, I think you're doomed to failure. That's my take, at least.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:50 PM
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Speaking of "back door" and orgasms, can someone please tell William Saletan to stop writing about anal sex? He is grossing me out. (That is, anal sex is not gross. Saletan's weird creepy obsession with women's sexual decisions is gross.)


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:51 PM
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102: Back Door Brag.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:51 PM
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Are you more ashamed of faking it or of sexing a person you were not attracted to? I'm sure we've all had coyote moments, but during the act? A little selfish, no?

I'm not entirely sure 'selfish' is the right word for what was wrong there--dishonest, sure. IIRC, the lady in question had already come--unless she was faking, too, which I obviously shouldn't rule out.

At any rate, I'm ashamed both of the faking and of the sexing, and don't feel much urgency in ranking the several shames.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:51 PM
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Uh, second link: here


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:52 PM
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105: Okay, that helps a lot. I didn't know about the story until I saw it in connection with O'Donnell so it made less sense how people could connect the two just because they both use the word "hide."

107: I can't stand William Saletan. I don't understand why Slate of all publications employs him.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 12:59 PM
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"We're looking to hire someone to cover the whole female-sexuality beat. This person should cover everything from orgasms to abortion, and do it, preferably, with the kind of style that comes from the writer's left hand residing permanently in his shorts. A hysterical moralism barely restrained by the yoke of civil liberal discourse would be a plus! APPLY NOW."


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:03 PM
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And to the post:

When I was on the pill, it had a lot of weird, subtle effects on my behavior and emotional life, but one of the hardest was that it dulled my reaction to sexual stimulus. It didn't really change my ability to have an orgasm, but it made the idea of sex sound not particularly fun. What are you doing? Oh, you're touching my leg. Good for you. What's that? You want to fuck? Oh, OK. Sure, whatever. It just wasn't me. And no, my doctor was not particularly moved by my insistence that I hated living this way.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:11 PM
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107: I almost posted on how excessive his fixation was, but I was too squicked out to really want a whole front page post about it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:13 PM
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And of course, since this is an assumption based on personal experience, I'm probably wrong.

Well, wrong to universalize it to the point where you assume that everyone has tells that are obvious regardless of the situation, and occur only with orgasm rather than otherwise during sex. Suddenly getting all relaxed afterward is certainly familiar, but not all that different, to the observer, from catching your breath for a moment. Likewise tensing and shuddering -- tensing up probably always happens, shuddering at least sometimes, but both also happen while I'm very excited but not quite coming.


Posted by: Abigail Adams | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:15 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:16 PM
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Someone please tell William Saletan about all the great research coming from the University of the West of Scotland. He'll be so excited that he'll write something so offensive that he'll be fired.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:17 PM
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I think this thread has been more distracting than others.

I'm off to try to get something done, I guess? Good luck to al.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:18 PM
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109: Wait, what are you apologizing for? What's to be ashamed of in this?


Posted by: Woodrow Wilson | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:19 PM
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Unlike most of our threads about sex, this one hasn't quite put the knife to my libido, but it does remind me how annoying it is when people call something "better than sex," or compare something, without specificity, to sex. Given the varieties of sexual experience to be found in a single relationship/encounter/rainy afternoon, the rhetorical figure is void for vagueness.

In unrelated news, "almost as good as love" is not really much more specific than "better than sex," but people treat it more seriously.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:27 PM
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how excessive his fixation was

Not only that, but also how wrong! In the linked post, he is sooooo sure that he knows what causes orgasm in women. Yup, it's this, and if women report other things, they must be confused, see.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:28 PM
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Faking orgasm is sometimes prudent. A guy I knew was having sex with a woman who became so frustrated at failure to climax that she jumped out of bed and started tearing up his clothes.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:28 PM
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re: 66

I am in this situation. I have a very rare [moderately annoying but not remotely life-threatening] condition, and I know at least as much about it as most of the doctors involved. Even the national specialist unit in this condition, who are involved, have never seen my particular variant.

Also, I'm always very tempted, just to prick the doctor bubble, to respond whenever they say, "Mr Nattargc" .. "Actually, it's Dr Nattargc".


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:29 PM
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Given the varieties of sexual experience to be found in a single... rainy afternoon

Usually I just bake brownies and read a novel, actually.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:29 PM
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I don't understand why Slate of all publications employs him.

Actually, Saletan is crucial to Slate's core mission of publishing wrongheaded contrarian bullshit.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:30 PM
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I can't stand William Saletan. I don't understand why Slate of all publications employs him.

I feel that way about every Slate writer. Even Dahlia Lithwick has gotten a little cloying over the years.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:30 PM
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Saletan is odious, just deserts would be a lifetime diet of snotlike gluten. I stopped even looking at his headlines after his article on intelligence. Some topics are obviously difficult-- I'd embarass myself if I had to write about how to choose good-looking clothes, or how to train for running long distances well. I understand that these are topics that others have looked into closely, and that I can serve the topic best with silence.

Friedman is like this as well; how can a person be so so tone-deaf? One possibility is that these guys, like used-car salesmen, purposely play the role of genial imbecile for profit, while keeping carefully hidden the meager wiles that enable their survival. Why haven't their wives simply killed them?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:34 PM
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Usually I just bake brownies and read a novel, actually.

I am sure that to some Internet degenerates subculture[s] that denotes something reprehensibly filthy.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:35 PM
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115: I think my take on it is colored by largely only having one partner for a very long time, and to being very observant about myself. I really am incredibly predictable, to myself and to him, but of course it wasn't that way at first. I had a failure of imagination when trying to come up with a scenario where my partner wouldn't notice, but of course that happened more than once or twice back in the day, now that I've been thinking about this for way too long. We also did talk about it a lot.

Anyway, to your original observation - I think that sometimes it's fun to heighten the drama by cuing your moanwrithing to the moment. Other times, it just takes you out of the spontaneity of the moment.


Posted by: Dolly Madison | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:35 PM
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scenario where my partner wouldn't notice

Perhaps I am exceptionally unobservant, but after spending time admiring my partner's spine, I miss a lot of detail that I notice otherwise.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:38 PM
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What does that even mean? "Hide your will"? What is that going to do?

I am right here!

I have a similar problem as alameida. I used to make my partners come 7 times in a session, not it is only 4 times.

ogged must have signed in under alameida. The death of the blog discussion brought ogged/alameida back forcefully.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:45 PM
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131: Hide Will from your lights!


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:46 PM
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OT - I'm watching Castle now - will blame you all if I don't enjoy it.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:47 PM
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Also, as alameida mentioned, her ability is probably still a high-note in the majority of her sexual partner's sex-histories.
"One time, I made a girl come SEVEN times!"


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:47 PM
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133:

How long does Castle last?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:48 PM
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Castle sometimes last thousand years. Why Will talk like Tarzan?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:52 PM
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135: Much longer than before, because of the SSRI.


Posted by: Opinionated Castle | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:52 PM
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"One time, I made a girl come SEVEN times!"

If I could tell my younger self anything, high on the list might be something like "Claims about statistics mean quite a bit less than whether and how soon she comes back for more."


Posted by: Avery Dulles | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:52 PM
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pwned, but not topically pwned.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:53 PM
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I am sure that to some Internet degenerates subculture[s] that denotes something reprehensibly filthy.

To the rest of us it denotes someone irretrievably married.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:54 PM
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An hour. Started at 9. I bet if I get going I could *really* enjoy it IYKWIMAITYD.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:55 PM
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Started at 9

And I was impressed with 7.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:56 PM
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141. But it's only 9:15 here and already you've abandoned it for the internet. Not a good recommendation.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 1:58 PM
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More seriously, it is really important to talk with your pharmacist and doctor about dosage. Slight modifications in dosage might produce same benefit without the bad side-effects.

We constantly have to adjust doses on my daughter's meds.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:02 PM
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143 - ahem, laptop.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:07 PM
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||

WTF is it with the server system clock on this site? I posted 143 at approx 21:18 BST. There are no half hour time zones in either Britain or the US AFAIK (or 40 minute zones anywhere), but it shows up at 01:58. Is Unfogged hosted in 1775?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:08 PM
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Have faked on two occasions (different partners). Both entirely because I was pretty much going for MMO (which I achieved on other occasions with each of the partners in the above) by ignoring the whole "refractory period" phenomenon.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:09 PM
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Massively multiplayer orgasms?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:14 PM
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Honestly, I've come to the conclusion that women are all so goddamn different in their sexual response -- the range is so much greater than for men -- that I don't think men can take credit or blame for much of anything. Kind of liberating, actually.


Posted by: Slightly anonymous roberto halfordo | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:20 PM
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Nah, results are wildly variable by partner as well. It's still all your fault.

I mean, not yours, specifically, unless we've met sometime.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:21 PM
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I just mean there are so many variables going on, and so much range, that there's no real use blaming (or praising) oneself for much of anything.


Posted by: Slightly anonymous roberto halfordo | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:25 PM
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I can't stand William Saletan. I don't understand why Slate of all publications employs him.

I can't stand Saletan. I think he's a great fit for Slate.

What I wonder is why Slate, of all publications, employs Dahlia Lithwick.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:26 PM
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Marcel Marceau Orgasm?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:29 PM
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Oh hey look. here is Saletan being a weird mix of sympathetic and appalling about marriage and pride parades. The stuff about gays probably assimilating if marriage stops being used as a bludgeon is correct, but I can't help but read his take on it as the neo-borscht*- belt shtick you hear sometimes these days about "sure gays should be married; why shouldn't they suffer like the rest of us! Right, guys?!" And then there's some predictable "won't SOMEBODY. PLEASE. THINK OF THE CHILDREN." stuff in praise of aforementioned assimilation.

*I was reluctant to spell it "borscht" after getting snarked at before. The word doesn't have that final consonant in West or East Slavic languages, and that's what people who make it, overwhelmingly, speak.** It seems to have made its way into Yiddish with the /t/ though, for reasons I don't know, so fine.

**The vast majority I mean. Borsch(t) is sometimes good but I don't think anyone makes it overwhelmingly.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:29 PM
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There aren't a lot of people out there with a kink for being trapped in an invisible shrinking box, but if that's your thing...


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:29 PM
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Since "borscht belt" basically means "comedians whose parents or grandparents spoke Yiddish" I think spelling it in the Yiddish way is appropriate.


Posted by: Cryptic nd | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:40 PM
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That's why I relented of my "but borsch is Russian" stance.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:41 PM
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Russian/Ukrainian? And wouldn't the proper transliteration in either case be "borshch"?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:46 PM
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Jesus, sure, as inspired by
Marcel Marceau Overdrive, the mime/rock sensation touring county and state fairs near you, summer and autumn.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:58 PM
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almost no one seems to care about the actual context beyond making fun of Dodson's being/seeming gay.

Being. I read a really charming interview that he gave after the Auto-Tune the News folks, to their great credit, showed up and dumped a barrel of money on his head (half of the profits from their remix of the interview).


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:58 PM
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almost no one seems to care about the actual context beyond making fun of Dodson's being/seeming gay.

Being. I read a really charming interview that he gave after the Auto-Tune the News folks, to their great credit, showed up and dumped a barrel of money on his head (half of the profits from their remix of the interview).


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:58 PM
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Jesus, sure, as inspired by
Marcel Marceau Overdrive, the mime/rock sensation touring county and state fairs near you, summer and autumn.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 2:58 PM
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158: Well, no. At least not in Russian, and not if you're making some attempt to transliterate sounds and ignore old conventions. Texts used to say to pronounce щ "shch", usually with the sort of funny example "fresh cheese"* but I've only ever heard this from older Russians and I think it's neither said nor taught at this point. What you actually hear for щ is a palatalized "sh", for which it's more useless than usual to speak of the correct transliteration, since English doesn't have this phonemic distinction and so has no orthographic way of representing it. I guess borsh' would be consistent with much transliteration of Russian, but you'll never see it.

And I have no idea about Ukrainian.

*Isn't there a Nichols & May routine where she keeps giving really perverse "A as in ___ " examples?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:00 PM
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I had a friend who lived in apartment KE, and would tell delivery guys "That's K as in Knife, and E as in Euphemism."


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:03 PM
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163: Actually, that's the way I was taught, but now that I check the textbook, the author does say it's specifically a St. Petersburg pronunciation.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:11 PM
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164: I figured out it's the comic sketch "telephone" I was thinking of. Mike Nichols is trying to call someone and Elaine May is a telephone operator. He asks for a guy named Kaplan and she asks is that "K as in knife, A as in aardvark, P as in pneumonia, L as in luscious, A as in aardvark again, N as in newel post, Kaplan?" This is a thing I am very fond of.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:17 PM
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Thanks Peep & Chris. for the well-wishes. It was no big deal; he's a nice guy, and absurdly relaxed about everything. Tomorrow: administrative bureaucracy! Woo!


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:33 PM
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|| I am resisting the urge to get into FB sniping, but holy wtf status from a high school friend:

[friend] is so heartbroken over our perverted attitude towards life in this country. We will work hard for over 2 months to save miners trapped underground, but think nothing of snuffing out life in a womb. And how can we ignore the obvious correlation between abortion and mothers killing their older children?

And then a link to an article about a 10-year old kid who was likely murdered by her stepmother...|>


Posted by: DK | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:37 PM
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De-friend! De-friend!


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:41 PM
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In Ukrainian, щ really is more of a "fresh cheese" kind of sound, I think.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:41 PM
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168: Come on, Di. It *is* super obvious, duh.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:42 PM
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168: WHAT?! I keep some crazy friends on Facebook because it's entertaining to see what the other side thinks is a legitimate argument. I would absolutely keep that friend around.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:50 PM
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I was sure this would become a food thread at some point, but I'm not sure the pronunciation of borscht really counts.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:55 PM
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(95) a guy coming is ... trivial, such that its lack indicates Medical Issues

What about just generally not being able to get it up at all? Suitor of Several Months (age 30) claims that this is just because he was single for too long, and masturbates too much, and that it has nothing to do with not being attracted to me. Is this an actual thing, or is he lying to ... I dunno. Avoid getting into my pants?


Posted by: Eleanor Roosevelt | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:55 PM
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I was sure this would become a food thread at some point, but I'm not sure the pronunciation of borscht really counts.

Dammit, essear, I was just going to make that joke. (Though now I'm glad that I previewed when I finally finished reading through everything.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:59 PM
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168: I was expecting the fetus=trapped miner angle to be more fully developed. You should propose sending in some tiny cigarettes.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 3:59 PM
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I have not friended two younger cousins, sisters, because I checked out their walls and it's all OBAMA IS LYINGGGGGGGGG!!! THAT KENYAN GOAT-FUCKER JUST WANTS OUR MONEEEEY!

Their far more reasonable older half-sister just tried to friend me and I haven't done so because it will make it clear I'm snubbing them. Sigh. No cousins (on the crazy side of the family*) for me.

* My private joke about this is that my cousin on the other side has been institutionalized many times throughout his life. But he's not, you know, CRAZY.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:01 PM
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174: I haven't heard of that. Savage Love talks a lot about failing to finish because of the death-grip, but not the failure to get excited in the first place.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:04 PM
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174: I dated a guy who said that and other things. In my case, he finally admitted he wasn't sexually attracted to me. I asked him why he was so into dating me. It had something to do with thinking my genetic material would be useful for his future plans to procreate. I said I was more into, like, guys who are interested in having sex with me. Why bother suffering over trying to make things work with someone you aren't attracted to, dudes? Do you enjoy being unhappy and causing others to be unhappy?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:04 PM
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174: I'd guess he's lying because he's embarrassed at not being able to get it up. If it were because he masturbates too much, it seems like the obvious solution would, you know, be to not masturbate before going on a date with you...


Posted by: DK | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:04 PM
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174: well, is he using this as an excuse to not go to bed together, or just as an excuse for not getting it up? Because there's obviously still stuff that can be done without the erection. I'd say take his claim at face value, so long as as he shows he's up for other stuff.

Or rather: if his single-too-long, masturbates-too-much thing was connected to depression or general self-loathing, there's good reason to think it's not about you at all.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:05 PM
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174: I'd say that if it's happened more than two or three times, he's either not attracted to you or should go see a doctor. (Or have one of those 50's movie Freudian epiphanies where he gets over whatever's bothering him and can play the piano again, but those are hard to arrange). But that's off the cuff, and men would probably have more useful information.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:06 PM
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On the other hand, I have been with a few guys who were nervous, or on medication, or had other sexual issues, but that never seemed to prevent an interest in sex or attempts to have sex. YMMV.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:06 PM
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181.1: I was thinking that -- if he's up for non-boner-requiring fun, then he's probably attracted to you. But should probably still see a doctor if it goes on too long.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:07 PM
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Also, to 174 and along the same lines as 179, I was going to say "Life's too short to languish in a sexually unsatisfying relationship." And then I remembered that it's been like a year since I've even kissed a boy. So, what do I know?


Posted by: DK | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:09 PM
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Suitor of Several Months (age 30) claims that this is just because he was single for too long, and masturbates too much

I am going to call BS on the story based on personal experience. There is probably something else going on.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:09 PM
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Ok, upon reading 179/180, I should clarify that his particular excuses sound pretty bullshit, but I can imagine them being related to a genuine not-about-you issue--in particular, depression. But that's because I make everything about me.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:10 PM
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Yeah, there's something fishy about the guy having a raging hard-on ALL THE TIME when he's alone but not ever with a partner. If it was a Grip-of-Death problem, he'd get really hard but never be able to come. (This also seems to happen when lots of cocaine is involved!)


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:11 PM
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Jumping in to this a bit late but I figured I'd share some. I'm a twenty something male who has never had an orgasm. Its really not that bad since I don't know what I'm missing- I'd imagine that its much more
offputting if its a temporary or transient condition. It also has some pluses- greater than average stamina and self control.

The real downside is having to reassure sexual partners that it isn't their fault. Not everyone notices, so you can just avoid the subject, but it can cause a real crisis of confidence in some women.


Posted by: Grover Cleveland | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:12 PM
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It's happened every time we've gone to bed together, except for once, which was the second occasion. For a total now of 5 or so separate occasions. The second time, he got it up but couldn't finish.

There's some other stuff, but not a lot, and not as much as I would like. Also, if it's because you're masturbating too much, how about if you stop masturbating so much, particularly before we're supposed to see each other? Anyway he mostly seems into the kissing and snuggling part of things, and I'm getting bored.

We've discussed it each time, and I usually express some amount of "is there something else I could do?" and "this is making me feel self-conscious about not being wanted", with concerted effort on my part not to be stress-y. I don't want to be... mean? Demanding? Part of the problem?


Posted by: Eleanor Roosevelt | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:17 PM
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I was sure this would become a food thread at some point, but I'm not sure the pronunciation of borscht really counts.

I know, how did that happen? In my defense, I'd just eaten, so I wasn't inspired to think about food.

Anyway, borscht/borsch/borshch. James Peterson's soup book points out that it's a multifarious thing, and elaborate versions can include pork, beef, duck and kvass. I've never gone beyond just the plain old beet kind, because yum, beets.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:19 PM
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Part of the problem?

Female?


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:19 PM
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189: Huh. I am overcome by nosy questions: please ignore if they're unwelcome.

Have you got a diagnosis for that?

It sounds as if you've got a sex drive; is non-orgasmic sex satisfying for you, or something you'd just as soon skip?

On the 'sounds like you have a sex drive' front -- are you distinguishing between orgasm and ejaculation? (That is, I can imagine a condition in which someone could come, but didn't ejaculate. At which point it seems like a fairly small problem. But you'd be drawing the distinction if that was the position you were in.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:20 PM
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It's constantly surprising to me how many people are willing to trade friendship and security for a satisfying sex life, even among my relatively young, Dan Savage reading, anal sex crazy cohort.


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:21 PM
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194: I'm not saying I'd make that choice, but it does affect a much larger percentage of your day.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:22 PM
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Maybe it's relevant that I probably have a lower sex drive than most people, and there's a long-ago rape in my history. I'd be okay with subbing in other stuff for PIV sex, I think, almost all the time, but I'm having a hard time believing "no, I'm turned on! Mentally! I like you! I'm just not, you know, actually turned on." I'm more weirded out by the situation, and don't really know what I should think of it or the explanation, than I am sexually frustrated.


Posted by: Eleanor Roosevelt | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:23 PM
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196 -- The "I was single for too long and having sex with myself" explanation is total and complete bullshit. As to the real explanation, it could be (a) gay (b) unattracted or (c) having impotence issues for medical or psychological reasons unrelated to you. Obviously, who knows at a distance, but if I were betting I'd pick (c).

If you take the relationship seriously, you could ask the dude what he's doing about it and what's going on -- he may well have deceived himself, and he should also know that his explanation is nonsensical.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:31 PM
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Yeah, I'd be a bit weirded out as well. OTOH, if things are otherwise good, I dunno, maybe just plan on doing non-erection-requiring stuff. I'd think it would be less stressy to have the plan for the evening be make out/snuggle/oral sex/whatever than PIV-if-he-can-get-it-up-which-he-probably-can't. And I'd think that would be an unstable equilibrium; either he'd get over the nervousness or whatever, or his lack of attraction to you would become more obvious and you could give up on the whole idea.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:32 PM
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Anyway he mostly seems into the kissing and snuggling part of things...

This certainly is consistent with someone who is having serious depression issues, or who for whatever reason is having trouble seeing themselves as sexually desirable. Being into kissing, in particular, strikes me as a point against the "not that into you" hypothesis. Snuggling is one thing, but I wouldn't be "into" kissing unless I'm attracted to the person.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:32 PM
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193: Don't have a proper diagnosis for it. Haven't really been bothered enough to go to the trouble

I've got a healthy sex drive and ejaculate without a problem but simply don't orgasm. Poking around the internet tells me that there's something called "ejaculatory anhedonia" that meets the description and doesn't really have any clear causes or treatment.

Non-orgasmic sex is perfectly satisfying as far as I'm concerned. That might have something to do with me not knowing any better but I find it to be a good way to spend some time.


Posted by: Grover Cleveland | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:33 PM
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193 is totally bizarre. Dude, get that looked into!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:34 PM
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Oh, and what Halford said -- there's a reasonably good shot he should go see a doctor (or has but doesn't want to tell you about what's going on medically). If it's the latter, telling him that you think you'd be fine with a non-boner-requiring sex life might lighten things up.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:34 PM
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196: Per everyone else, I'm inclined to think 1) not about you and 2) not what he is saying. That leaves room for any number of physical/psychological/medication/emotional issues of varying potential relevance to the relationship.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:34 PM
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I second 193.

And Mrs. Roosevelt, it sounds like what's weirding you out is the suggestion of dishonesty (however non-malicious), bc, you know, that's weird. Yeah, it seems like there's something else going on. It seems more like at this point, he'd be thinking that too, if he didn't already know it. The idea he's not telling you everything is definitely off-putting / anxiety making, or at least would be to me, more than the lack of sex.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:36 PM
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199: The aforementioned guy who was not sexually attracted to me was really into kissing. He was very romantically attracted; he just had little interest in fucking.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:36 PM
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Thanks guys! Y'all are swell.


Posted by: Eleanor Roosevelt | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:38 PM
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All that is not to say that there's anything wrong with Eleanor Roosevelt! I think she's a fox! I don't think one can read much about one's objective value into the random opinion of a dude. People are attracted or unattracted to people for very weird and complicated reasons that have nothing to do with one's intrinsic worth.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:38 PM
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Ah, Mr. Cleveland! I did not know that existed, and I like learning. So. Cool. (Agreed: good way to spend some time.)


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:39 PM
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204: is the suggestion of dishonesty (however non-malicious), bc, you know, that's weird.

Of course there is only a whole male culture + media + jokes + blog comment sections + anything else you can think of suggesting eternal shame and ridicule for admitting some of the possibilities, so maybe not so weird.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:39 PM
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People started discussing sex again while I was writing 191. That's okay, y'all'll get hungry eventually.

I went from reading comments here about ejaculation directly to the Times headline "Emerging From Shaft, a Pageant of Spirit", which was kind of funny.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:40 PM
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207: SCENT. But I believe we've had this discussion?


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:40 PM
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210.1: Sure whatever gets you off ... or not.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:41 PM
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209: Well, right -- I can easily see a perfectly decent guy with some kind of medical/psychological issue being too ashamed and defensive to explain what's going on, or being too ashamed and defensive to have sought out a diagnosis. I'd think you'd have to like him an awful lot to make it worthwhile trying to break through the defensiveness, but if you do, that might help.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:42 PM
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209: Yeah. That part sucks. I didn't mean weird as in...not understandable. But since sex is so laden with vulnerability (sometimes), going into it w a sense of dishonesty and unease would make me anxious. Save that for later, when you have a relationship to fuck up.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:42 PM
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174: There's something missing in the chemistry for sure if it is or was happening repeatedly. There may be just some X factor in re: preferences in bed getting in the way, so his protestation that it's not about his "attraction" to you may be sincere from his viewpoint; I once dated a woman who I was attracted to in terms of her physical beauty (which was remarkable), but I was turned off by her preferences in lovemaking -- which I can only describe as too "antiseptic" for my tastes -- and consequently "couldn't raise a smile," so to speak, when it came to the act. I was genuinely attracted to her and couldn't think of a way to articulate what was going on without hurting her feelings, so that was that.

I subsequently dated a moderately pretty woman who wasn't a patch on my prior mate for physical beauty but precisely shared my filthy and perverted bedroom tastes, and we regularly had thunderous four-hour-plus sessions that left me on an endorphin high to rival most anything you can find in pill or powder form*. Unfortunately it turned out to be Crazy Person Sex and everything else about the relationship was awful, but the sex was gorram amazing. Tradeoffs.

(* Not hyperbole.)


Posted by: Jefferson Lee Wainwright | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:42 PM
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Further to Grover Cleveland's 189: While I can't imagine never having an orgasm -- they're pretty fun, so you may want to look into that -- I think it's not too uncommon for some guys to take a long time to get off and/or sometimes not do so at all.


Posted by: Jefferson Lee Wainwright | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:46 PM
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I meant to reference 200 in comment 201 above, and by "bizarre" I don't at all mean shameful. It sounds like you're doing fine, but why wouldn't you want to get that checked out? And I'm not even sure exactly what you mean -- you "ejaculate without a problem" but don't feel anything while you're doing it?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 4:50 PM
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217: I figure I'll see someone about it sooner or later but its never been a pressing issue for me. I've always figured its not terribly different from my female friends who have trouble with orgasm, just bad luck that can't necessarily be fixed. And I'll admit to being mildly concerned that addressing it would have a detrimental impact on my abilities as a lover otherwise.

As to the whole ejaculation thing- the plumbing works just fine it's just not hooked into the pleasure center of my brain or something like that. I'd rather ejaculate during sex than not, but its just not connected with a particular pleasurable sensation.


Posted by: Grover Cleveland | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:01 PM
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I think it's not too uncommon for some guys to take a long time to get off and/or sometimes not do so at all

And, certainly, some might suggest such a thing is entirely preferable to some guys who could easily beat alameida to the finish line.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:05 PM
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Anyway he mostly seems into the kissing and snuggling part of things

That kinda sounds like the Neil Patrick Harris serial killer character on Law and Order: Criminal Intent.

Is he really into your calves? If so, RUN.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:10 PM
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And I'll admit to being mildly concerned that addressing it would have a detrimental impact on my abilities as a lover otherwise.

I'd say that if the problem is fixable, I'd expect it to be a positive rather than a negative for women you're with. Part of the fun is getting your partner off, and I'd bet your lovers would trade some stamina/self-control on your part for you to be orgasmic without even thinking about it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:10 PM
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For Eleanor Roosevelt's situation, 196:

I'd be okay with subbing in other stuff for PIV sex, I think, almost all the time, but I'm having a hard time believing "no, I'm turned on! Mentally! I like you! I'm just not, you know, actually turned on." I'm more weirded out by the situation, and don't really know what I should think of it or the explanation, than I am sexually frustrated.

As others have said, it's probably something medical or emotional, and my understanding has always been that pressure is the absolute worst thing if it's something emotional. I might try suggesting, next time, that the two of you just fool around (he can masturbate with you, you can masturbate him, oral or manual or whatever), no expectation of actual PIV sex.

Maybe there's a nefarious and loaded explanation for it all (he's gay and trying to go straight or something), but it may just be awful nerves, stage fright, fear of a new relationship, concern that it'll never work out and he'll get hurt or will hurt you, etc. I'd try slowing way down, assuming you like him enough to stick with it for a while.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:21 PM
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222 is basically what I've been doing, and I think is solid advice. I just was curious about if there was any chance the "too much masturbation" was actually the cause, or if I was right to be skeptical about that part of the story and/or if I should assume he finds me repulsive but for some reason wants to hang out anyway.

I haven't totally decided if I like him enough to stick with it, but for sure this isn't a dealbreaker. There are other problematic aspects. For example, he's a libertarian.


Posted by: Eleanor Roosevelt | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:27 PM
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This is now at the point of totally uninformed meddling in stranger's lives, but I kinda disagree with 222. There's a big elephant in the room that "slowing things down" won't solve. I definitely agree putting active pressure on the dude is a really bad idea -- "hey, loser, get it up now" is probably not a very nice thing to say -- but that's very different than saying "look, something is going on here. Can we talk about it?" That question might indeed be mood-killing, but the mood has already been killed, as it were.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:27 PM
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223: For example, he's a libertarian.

Oh, honey.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:28 PM
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You know, that impotent libertarians are getting some should give all other guys a fair bit of hope.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:29 PM
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225: The last time I had sex with a Libertarian (um, 1987?), the fellow in question finished and then told me, "Oh, the condom broke, but I really wanted to finish. So I decided I'll just give you the money for an abortion if you need it."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:32 PM
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223: if there was any chance the "too much masturbation" was actually the cause,

Actually literally "too much masturbation" *now* could be the "cause"--but that just shifts the emotional/psychological/whatever problem to why can't he control that.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:34 PM
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227: For reals? Holy shit.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:34 PM
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CROSS THREAD TIE IN: The impotent libertarian's name is . . . Rand Paul.

227 is pretty dang despicable, if not a joke.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:36 PM
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that impotent libertarians are getting some should give all other guys a fair bit of hope.

My little affair with Ayn Rand should be enough to prove that hippie chicks aren't the only ones who put out.


Posted by: Alan Greenspan | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:36 PM
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229/30: God's own truth! The fellow in question is now a very, very big deal I-banker.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:37 PM
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224: Oh, yeah, I wasn't saying that "Can we talk about this?" was a bad idea. Not at all. You can both (try to) talk about it, or at least ask about it and make clear that the concern about it on your part is not going to go away, and slow things down.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:37 PM
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but it may just be awful nerves, stage fright, fear of a new relationship, concern that it'll never work out and he'll get hurt or will hurt you, etc. I'd try slowing way down, assuming you like him enough to stick with it for a while.

In a thirty year old guy any of those are still a solid indication that he's broken in some fashion and telling a whopper of a lie to avoid confronting it.

Kick this guy loose. It's early in the relationship and his idea of putting his best foot forward is "I can't fuck you because my usual lifestyle is that of a hermit who beats off like a chimpanzee". My guess is that he's a freak and you're better off getting out before you find out the truth.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:39 PM
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Eleanor, I'll just throw this out there because it happens to be true for me, but since you mentioned the rape in your past I'll add that a big hangup for me (and one which did and does cause relationship stress but too bad) is that I need to believe that my partner is truly interested in any activity we have because any hint of what I see as coercion at all makes me too uncomfortable even if it doesn't bother the other party. It's very hard on me when I don't think my partner wants sex and is doing it just to please me, though doing it just to please me because that's what she wants is no problem. Anyway, I don't know if this even makes sense to you, but if I were with a guy like that I'd be uncomfortable about whether he was really interested in a way that would make me uneasy, so it's good that this is just a hypothetical.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:40 PM
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For example, he's a libertarian.

Huh. That's a character flaw one (that is, I) could over look in the face of phenomenal (and I do mean phenomenal) sex. But a libertarian and sexually frustrating? Oh dear.

Also, there is the possibility that "masturbates too much" really is a significant part of the problem. Which should lead quickly to the discussion that begins, "Okay, if the problem is that you've been masturbating too much, why the fuck don't you cut that out because you are frustrating the hell out of me?!" Or, if you wanted to be gentler about it, "I'm having a hard time understanding why you are still choosing sex with yourself over sex with me."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:42 PM
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I think we should all stop wasting so much time on having/thinking about sex and start getting down to the important business of attacking libertarian dickheads with tasers. At least, that's what I feel like doing.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:43 PM
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I'm having a hard time understanding why you are still choosing sex with yourself over sex with me

I like me better.

Just kidding. Even the worst PIV sex is 100x better than masturbation. In addition to, ok, whatev. Instead of, WTF??


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:46 PM
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Now I'm getting all insecure and weirded out again.

Maybe the libertarian thing gives me a way out without feeling like a jerk. "I'm not dumping you because of your crazy sex hangups. It's just because of your politics, dear."


Posted by: E. Roosevelt | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:52 PM
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I like me better.

Not at all implausible, now that we knowhe is a libertarian.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:52 PM
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the important business of attacking libertarian dickheads with tasers

Will that be like cutting carbon emissions by sudden , violent death ?


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 5:59 PM
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238.2: Even the worst PIV sex is 100x better than masturbation

Hardly a universal view. Read some of the literature, dude. (Everyone should go read Kinsey.)

Also some masturbation techniques do seem to be linked with erectile dysfunction--some of the research is controversial, but google "Traumatic Masturbation Syndrome" for somewhat extreme views.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:00 PM
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Even the worst PIV sex is 100x better than masturbation.

When Wh/tn/y Houston said, "Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all," you need to keep in mind who she married and that she was probably speaking about emotional love anyway.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:00 PM
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239: I wouldn't be. I'm with Di: I'd have a hard time dealing with a libertarian in the absence of something else really redeeming.

234.1: In a thirty year old guy any of those are still a solid indication that he's broken in some fashion and telling a whopper of a lie to avoid confronting it.

Harsh, gswift. There are a lot of reasons a guy might have trouble in a new relationship: broke up with a long-term partner, or divorced? Say. And confused about the whole thing.

I'd find a refusal to talk about it -- plus the libertarianism -- to be dealbreakers. But not the impotence and the excuse-making.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:01 PM
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but google "Traumatic Masturbation Syndrome" for somewhat extreme views.

I'm just going to assume that would be TMI.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:02 PM
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Read some of the literature, dude

Subjective, yes. Also I may be doing it wrong. I stand by my assertion, for myself only.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:04 PM
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Masturbation just does something different. I'm a fan! But somehow it's not even really in the same category in my mind as fucking. My desire to do one is not sated by the other. If sex ends up being frustrating, masturbating doesn't help. I've never really gotten down with the advice to stimulate oneself during sex; if I wanted to jerk off, I would have stayed home.

Again, it turns out sexual experiences are subjective. Who knew?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:08 PM
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My desire to do one is not sated by the other

AWB, if it weren't for the politics and the skeevy age difference, I would, well, you know.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:11 PM
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227: "Sorry, I really wanted to stab you when you told me that. I'll give you some money for the medical bills if you survive."


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:14 PM
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249: Seriously. What is wrong with people? I'd have been hard pressed not to spread the news far and wide: This libertarian guy? Unfit for company of any sort!!! And let me tell you why!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:31 PM
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There are other problematic aspects. For example, he's a libertarian.

... ok, starting to think this is an elaborate punking of me, but that's because I'm self-absorbed. (But one of the nice, left-socialist variants of libertarian!)

I think gswift is right, in a sense: there's something broken about the guy. That needn't be a dealbreaker; we're none of us perfect, and I'm actually deeply suspicious (ok, resentful) of those who can stay psychologically healthy in the face of our fallen world.

Which is to say, I also agree with Parsimon in 222. Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 6:36 PM
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But one of the nice, left-socialist variants of libertarian!

I admit that I felt a moment's hesitation: there are a variety of libertarians, and it's not entirely fair to tar them all with the same brush.

Still, if I found myself dating a self-identified libertarian, I'd (eventually) be all like, "What kind of libertarian? What do you mean by that? How do you feel about government spending? About privacy rights? About gay rights? What is your view of Ron Paul? Or Rand Paul?" and so on.

Which might come across as a bit hostile on my part, but I really would have to know.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:13 PM
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Even the worst PIV sex is 100x better than masturbation.

This thread seems as appropriate a place as any to mention that it's been so long since I've reset my Tivo, my Tivo is a VCR.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:15 PM
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He's a libertarian.

He isn't impotent. His dick has gone Galt!


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:18 PM
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The comment in 227 really justified a good punch in the junk.

With regard to the men issues, it seems to me that the one deal breaker is not being able to discuss it. It doesnt shock me if the sex doesnt sparkle the first time or so, bc different strokes for different folks. Plus, with nerves, age, and other things, it might just not happen perfectly at first. A woman might not be ready; a guy might not be ready as well.

But....the couple needs to be able to talk about it. "Why cant you come!??!"" "WTF?!?! 2 minutes!?!??!!?"

Of course, these are all reasons why you should avoid sleeping with anyone under 34. Stick with people who know what they are doing.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:19 PM
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He isn't impotent. His dick has gone Galt!

It just finds all that extra blood flow very taxing.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:26 PM
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What about just generally not being able to get it up at all? Suitor of Several Months (age 30) claims that this is just because he was single for too long, and masturbates too much, and that it has nothing to do with not being attracted to me. Is this an actual thing, or is he lying to ... I dunno. Avoid getting into my pants?

What he says is entirely plausible.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:27 PM
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257: Which, as has been noted above, merely raises the question of why he doesn't stop or slow his solo career.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:31 PM
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Wow, after reading subsequent responses, apparently nobody agrees with 257.

- The "I was single for too long and having sex with myself" explanation is total and complete bullshit.

No it isn't.

As others have said, it's probably something medical or emotional, and my understanding has always been that pressure is the absolute worst thing if it's something emotional. I might try suggesting, next time, that the two of you just fool around (he can masturbate with you, you can masturbate him, oral or manual or whatever), no expectation of actual PIV sex.

This is the truth. No pressure situation.

Kick this guy loose. It's early in the relationship and his idea of putting his best foot forward is "I can't fuck you because my usual lifestyle is that of a hermit who beats off like a chimpanzee".

Wow, you're an asshole.

Also, there is the possibility that "masturbates too much" really is a significant part of the problem. Which should lead quickly to the discussion that begins, "Okay, if the problem is that you've been masturbating too much, why the fuck don't you cut that out because you are frustrating the hell out of me?!" Or, if you wanted to be gentler about it, "I'm having a hard time understanding why you are still choosing sex with yourself over sex with me."

If you haven't had sex in months, you can't "cut out" masturbating if it's become, let's say, a daily or bidaily habit. Or at least, trying to do so becomes very distracting when trying to get things done sometimes.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:34 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:38 PM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:40 PM
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63: (yeah I know, a bit late) I want a name for the frustrating, provocative half-reveal on facebook, usually someone making vague reference to an unnamed misfortune, sometimes with friends chiming in and saying "hope you're holding up!" If it's too private to spell it out, don't broadcast it.

On another topic altogether, why does the term PIV mildly skeeve me? I'm fine with all its constituent words, especially "in." Well, ok, "in" comes in second.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:43 PM
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262: It skeeves me in the same way that "mouth to anus" skeeves me.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:45 PM
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262.1: oh man those make me crazy. "Well, here's hoping I can make it down the stairs today -- it's been six weeks!" YES OKAY I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON IN YOUR LIFE I GET IT GEEZ.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:46 PM
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PIFL sex


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:47 PM
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the frustrating, provocative half-reveal on facebook

I was just speculating with Tweety about a couples version of this from today. My female friend's status: Well, shit. Her husband's status: It would be nice if one thing would work out.

Curious! We have decided that husband either lost his job, or didn't lose his job. Both could elicit those reactions.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:49 PM
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All my FB status updates are Smiths song lyrics or Pablo Neruda poetry.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:50 PM
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253: MAE, this made me laugh. Let the Mineshaft, or its individual members participants, know if there's any help they might provide in this regard. Right?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:52 PM
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The discussion seems to have moved on, but I am a woman who rarely orgasms with a partner unless her hand is involved, most of the time doesn't care to, and almost never bothers trying to have an orgasm during PIV sex (which would involve my hand), though I do enjoy partner-assisted masturbation.

My sexual partners frequently comment that I seem more sexually responsive than most women. I can never be sure that isn't a line, but I hear it a lot. It know that it is true that I get wetter. People also remark that I am more reactive to touch than is typical, become visibly aroused very easily, and show sexual response dramatically on my face. Sex often lasts three to four hours in my encounters, even in relationships that have been going for a while -- or longer, but three to four hours is a common length. I also hear that "I am always in the mood," and if all the emotional cards are aligned (though this happens rarely in the course of my relationships), it's true that I can literally be constantly ready to have sex on a moment's notice, with no foreplay, six, seven times a day, limited only by my partner's appetite. It's often a bad idea to have an orgasm because it slows me down and reduces my desire; I prefer partners who like to exercise some kind of orgasm control or denial so I don't jump the gun.

This is just to say that for many, orgasms are not an important component of sexual pleasure and ease of orgasm does not equal sexual response. No one said it did, thank goodness, but I like to illustrate the variety of female sexual response whenever I get the opportunity.


Posted by: Andrea Merkel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:53 PM
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It just finds all that extra blood flow very taxing.

Erections are theft.

max
['Viagra is a commie plot.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:54 PM
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247 and 249: YES. WHAT YOU SAID.

But particularly 249. Holy shit, holy shit, holy shit. Once again: so glad I don't sleep with men. I would be in jail. I would be arrested, and in jail. Not to say women don't have their drawbacks, but when they pull a dick move they typically don't have the entire patriarchy, 70 lbs, and leverage on their side.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:54 PM
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267: Yeah, I have FB friends like you. One posts nothing but absolutely gorgeous black and white photography (not his own), usually of beautiful people in stunning poses.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:55 PM
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263 I think maybe PIV for some reason puts me in mind of some parts wandering around without people attached and then hey, Mr. Walking Peen is in Ms. Walking Vaj. Sex organs in isolation are creepy.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:56 PM
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269: Call me.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:57 PM
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269: Angela?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:58 PM
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I mean. I am faithful to my girlfriend.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:58 PM
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269: And me!

271: Yeah, turns out a penis is a particularly excellent instrument with which to be a dick. So to speak.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:59 PM
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dona, if I lived in NYC, I would.


Posted by: Andrea Merkel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 7:59 PM
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275 was my other thought, but then I figured: too involved. That joke is toooooo involved.

And then I thought about that series of photographs where W decided to give Merkel a shoulder massage at some massive conference thing.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:00 PM
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275: Hmm, I googled that to try to check that I had the first name right, and got lots of hits. Apparently I am not the first to make that mistake.


Posted by: A. Merkel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:00 PM
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275 is a joke? I'm so lost.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:01 PM
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NOBODY GETS IT RIGHT


Posted by: OPINIONATED ANGRYBIRD MERKEL | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:01 PM
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From experience and disagreeing with others, I don't think "been single too long" and "masturbates too much" is ludicrous on its face as an excuse, particularly if the latter is extended to "masturbates to pornography too much."

Psychologically, that may simply have become his comfort zone for getting off. The masturbation may also affect the amount of direct pressure to the area he needs to be stimulated enough to maintain erection. You can still find the people you're with very attractive and have these problems.


Posted by: King George III | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:02 PM
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It's often a bad idea to have an orgasm because it slows me down and reduces my desire; I prefer partners who like to exercise some kind of orgasm control or denial so I don't jump the gun.

Agree completely. That isnt to say that fast and furious isnt fun, but Id much rather have lengthy sex.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:03 PM
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Yeah, I googled it to make sure it wasn't someone I hadn't heard of, and was surprised how many hits. But then I thought, huh, maybe it's the commenter's real name, which happens to be similar to that of a female head of state.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:04 PM
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Remember when some British tabloid published photos of Angela Merkel changing out of her swimsuit on a public beach, and Der Spiegel published something along the lines of "WHY? WHY DO THEY HATE US SO?" (Seriously I think that was the translation.)

And all you could think was, "Really? You really...don't have any ideas? None?"


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:04 PM
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But then I thought, huh, maybe it's the commenter's real name, which happens to be similar to that of a female head of state.

DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON HOW IT IMPACTS MY SEX LIFE


Posted by: OPINIONATED MARGARINE THATCHER | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:05 PM
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283: Addiction / dopamine pathways are a bitch.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:06 PM
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282: YOU'VE GOT NOTHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT


Posted by: OPINIONATED FRED MERKLE | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:06 PM
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288: dopaminergic neurons are implicated in excessive masturbation?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:07 PM
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I wouldn't have put 269 the way Angela did, but I don't think that's very unusual. At least in the throes of a relationship, when the cards are aligned. It makes complete sense to me, anyway.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:07 PM
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262 I want a name for the frustrating, provocative half-reveal on facebook, usually someone making vague reference to an unnamed misfortune

You're in luck!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:08 PM
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290: Yup. You can become addicted to porn. At least that book about the brain that changes itself told me so. What am I, a neuroscientist?


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:10 PM
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272: Just to clarify, I don't really do that thing with the Smiths lyrics and the Neruda. If I ever get that way I'll have to have someone shoot me. But I do have a couple of photography-happy friends who do just the thing you describe. (Though at least two of them are doing it with their own actual photographs, which is much better.)


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:10 PM
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the frustrating, provocative half-reveal on facebook

A friend of mine has dubbed this "the cryptic, possibly passive-aggressive Facebook post."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:11 PM
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What am I, a neuroscientist?

I haven't the slightest. Some people here are, so you never know when somebody making reference to neurobiology might actually not be talking out their ass.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:12 PM
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For future reference, I talk exclusively out of my ass.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:13 PM
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288: dopaminergic neurons are implicated in excessive masturbation?

It doesn't sound implausible, does it?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:16 PM
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294: The friend I have who posts the photos seems to be involved in a project regarding said photography. I'm not sure. He's an artist in some other respect; friend of a friend, a sometime writer and bookseller as well. I frankly wish he'd provide commentary for the photos. But his choices of photos to post are really fantastic, so it's not like it's a pain. It's actually a breath of fresh air.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:19 PM
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298: no.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:23 PM
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But that said, I feel like the whole concept of "sex addiction" is pretty darn fraught, and I would be hesitant to accept it as a particularly valid diagnosis unless we were to also allow taco addiction, video game addiction and, um, let's say integration-by-parts addiction into the DSM.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:25 PM
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To add to the data: I personally have previously taken the path of daily masturbation (along with some porn) and I found that I was able to have an erection that lasted a good hour during intercourse with my ex- during that time period. I certainly did not then fail to get an erection due either to porn or masturbation. (However, it couldn't go much beyond an hour because either my knees would lock up or we'd get hella sore. But dig the multiple orgasms.) So I'm not seeing that as the reason the guy can't get it up.

Earlier this year I started taking several exciting medications (doctor's orders) and I found that I had no libido. Later changes gave me a libido with no erections, but I could have orgasms. Going off the meds seems to have mostly restored the erections.

So I don't know what the guy without without erections problem is, but I strongly suspect it doesn't have anything to do with masturbation, excessive or not, and probably doesn't have anything do with porn, unless its gay porn.


Posted by: Nicolas Sarkozy | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:27 PM
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So, would some kind of unfogged traveling sex project be more successful than the music thing? I already know I can cross will off my list for being ageist against even those of us who skipped grades and look old! And then we could have passive-aggressive postings of "Seriously, you guys think seven is a lot?" and then resukting drama plus TOS. Automatic win! (Though seriously, it's not even double let alone triple digits. Seven??)

More seriously, it's not fair of me to say this when I'll only participate in talk about sex stuff in very indirect ways especially since I have a partner who's intensely private about that (yet moons people, so shouldn't that give me some ethical dispensation?) but I love getting to see the variety of experiences expressed here. I do think it serves a sort of coming-out function and that someday some young person feeling all alone will fall down the hoohole and find this post and decide that it gets better or something, y'know?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:28 PM
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302: since other people in the thread think it may have something to do with masturbation, it may be that men, much like women, are not all identical in this respect.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:30 PM
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I personally have previously taken the path of daily masturbation (along with some porn)

Eh, not the right frequency Kenneth.

And, though I am mad, I am obviously not claiming that everyone who masturbates a lot can't have a normal sex life, just that the causal connection isn't absurd in some cases.


Posted by: King George III | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:35 PM
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302: So I'm not seeing that as the reason the guy can't get it up.

Yeah, Jesus Masturbating Christ on the Cross Nicholas, what ned says.

and probably doesn't have anything do with porn, unless its gay porn.

!!! You tell 'em Sarky baby.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:37 PM
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Well, look. There's one way to settle this. Everybody get to masturbating, right now, and we'll all check back in about a week. Don't worry about securing time off from work; there's grants for this kind of thing. Grants from the government.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:39 PM
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Doubtless this cements my role as thread asshole but I'm still going with "run away". Hell, the best case scenario is that he's being honest and that he's a thirty year old libertarian whose masturbation addiction has rendered him incapable of having sex.

Sure, who doesn't like a good snuggle but I'm pretty sure there's lots of guys out there with the little extras like a functional penis and a belief in a progressive income tax.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:41 PM
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259

If you haven't had sex in months, you can't "cut out" masturbating if it's become, let's say, a daily or bidaily habit. Or at least, trying to do so becomes very distracting when trying to get things done sometimes.

Not my experience.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:41 PM
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Deadspin, of all places, ran a fascinating series by one of their commenters who was heading off to rehab for sex addiction more or less at the same time Tiger Woods was. Here's the first one. There are at least two more after that.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:42 PM
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and, um, let's say integration-by-parts addiction

In the one psychology class I took in college, my final paper was arguing that if people enjoy learning, it's a perversion of their natural dopaminergic reward system, much like drug addiction. Actually I don't think I quite said that, but I said something pointing in that direction.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:43 PM
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307: Per 305.1, I think we need to know how frequently per day we're supposed to be masturbating in order to make this experiment work.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:46 PM
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310: 26 hours?! Sweet Jews for Jesus.

Gotta say I believe that guy's addiction story more than I believe Tiger's, though.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:48 PM
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307: Grants from the government.

Stimulus money.

And no faking orgasms, either.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:49 PM
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311: yeah, that's silly, though. I just recently sat in on a talk the gist of which is that it's quite possible that all learning implicates the reward system.

312: why stop?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:49 PM
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313.2: Yeah. This guy seemed really intent on debasing himself and watching other people debase themselves. Tiger just had a whole lotta chicks who wanted to have sex with him.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:54 PM
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why stop?

Boredom? This is starting to feel like an assignment, Tweety, and that just doesn't work for me, you know?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:56 PM
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Well, at least we've definitively sorted it out for Eleanor.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 8:58 PM
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313.2: I don't know that I buy it, but hey, that pink shit might also be chicken eyeballs.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:02 PM
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315: I've long since forgotten, but I read a big pile of papers on studies in mice, and it seemed like that was what they were generally suggesting. The assignment was phrased in such a way as to force me to try to argue for a stronger conclusion than I had any reason to, IIRC. Unfortunately, the main thing I can still remember learning from that class is that most psychology students are really dumb.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:05 PM
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Unfortunately, the main thing I can still remember learning from that class is that most psychology students are really dumb.

They only have to outsmart the butterflies.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:08 PM
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(320 isn't meant to offend any local psychology students, if there are any. Probably it was just an accident or coincidence that this class wasn't very sharp, but I hadn't seen a classroom freak out so much about being asked to recall the basic concepts the teacher had been repeating for weeks since, like, middle school.)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:13 PM
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I'm hardly a psychology student, but I've met plenty of very sharp ones here and there.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:14 PM
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I don't have much opportunity for seven-times-a-day sex, so I can't back up Angela on that one, but yeah, I'd rather have really long, interesting sex than feel goal-oriented about it. Masturbation is goal-oriented; sex isn't for me. I guess if I'm in a long-term relationship it is more orgasm-directed, but that's like never.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 9:45 PM
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So, would some kind of unfogged traveling sex project be more successful than the music thing?

... I fly to Frankfurt tomorrow, but after that, have a week to wander around Europe. Laydeez.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:06 PM
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I get off just thinking about a progressive income tax.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:15 PM
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It's a bit of a coincidence that I just came across the term ejaculatory anhedonia yesterday while reading about SSRI's on Wikipedia. I'd had that a few times in my past marriage. You come, but the orgasm is so muted it's nonexistent. It really does leave you disappointed and wondering why you bothered. And often orgasms would be sort of in-between normal and anhedonic, present but very muted and not intense at all, almost half-hearted.

The ex was completely anorgasmic as well, and not just during sex. She couldn't bring herself to orgasm, and had never masturbated. Our sex life was not so good, but I was the one who was really unhappy; she enjoyed sex sans orgasms just fine, leaving me the one with the low-desire problem.

We went to a sex therapist who started in on trying to pitch the idea of a sex surrogate, and seemed taken aback when I said I had no trouble reaching an orgasm when masturbating. The therapist's reaction was to say if I just wasn't attracted to a person, nothing could change that. Then she started pitching the idea of an open relationship, which my ex was not cool with in the least. A year or two later, divorce.

Then I found five dollars worth of self-loathing and depression. Then I started considering SSRI's, and read about them on Wikipedia... [forming this comment into an endlessly repeating loop]


Posted by: John Tyler | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:28 PM
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Obligatory pedantry! The word for everyone's favorite involuntary pleasure response is groanwrithing.

I will demonstrate. Progressive income ----->groanwrithing here<----- tax


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:45 PM
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It would have been more felicitous to groanwrithe between "progressive" and "income", but it's really not something I can control.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10-13-10 10:46 PM
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SB deducted a lot as a kid.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 12:00 AM
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That is, I can imagine a condition in which someone could come, but didn't ejaculate.

I can testify that this is indeed the case, but it's not widely understood and many people do believe that ejaculation is synonymous with male orgasm. So I'm putting in my two cents to suggest that my esteemed colleagues the 22nd and 10th presidents above make sure they're clear what their condition actually is if they want to do anything about it.

If you're actually anorgasmic, that's one thing, although I can well believe it doesn't prevent you enjoying sex. But if you're coming but not ejaculating you may not realise that this is what's happening, because we're so conditioned to associate the two. And yet the underlying cause may well be quite different, and anybody you consult about it needs to be clear what they're trying to treat.

Persuading your partner is another matter. I'm not sure dear Mary is quite convinced that I'm getting off when I don't ejaculate even though we've been over this many times. There are stupid cultural expectations based on a very narrow understanding of sex which is far too prevalent.


Posted by: Benjamin Harrison | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:56 AM
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I am really surprised that a "I only come 4 times instead of 7" post doesn't have 500 comments.

I also wanted to add that I'm glad that alameida has gotten some relief from her horribly debilitating other condition. Undiagnosised conditions like that really suck. Ill echo the glutin thing. A friend went off glutin and got lots of relief from a similarly sounding condition.

Thorn, I didn't say I wouldn't do it for science! Any experiement would need to account for age differences. Sex really does change as you age.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 3:56 AM
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301: How do you feel about gambling addiction as a diagnosis? (Not trying to attack, just curious about where you draw the line.)


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:20 AM
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||
I'm not saying this happened, but I bet sometimes if you read long threads about sex just before bed and have recently participated in long discussions about watching too much a TV show, you might have a sex dream involving that TV show.
|>


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:11 AM
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IANAShrink, but it seems like maybe a fair distinction could be made here between addiction and compulsion.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:12 AM
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334: Matlock? Hott!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:23 AM
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Are you suggesting I may have dreamt about Nathan Fillion?

(I wish.)


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:36 AM
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333: I think the whole addiction model for things that don't cause physical withdrawal systems. There's certainly something there, but if you allow for addiction to one rewarding activity I think you pretty much have to let all of them in. Which, okay, maybe so, but then let's stop talking about the idea that you're treating sex addiction or gambling addiction or internet addiction, because that makes it sound like sex, gambling and the internet are the problems, rather than underlying anxiety disorders which cause compulsive behavior. Now, it's almost certainly the case that what is actually happening in treatment is close to what I describe, but the description of "sex addiction" per se as a disorder is pernicious, and leads to things like people thinking you should apply the abstinence model to basic life functions like sex or eating, or basic social functions like internet access. Note that this is a completely different deal from e.g. heroin addiction or long-term alcoholism, where you're treating (often with medical intervention) an actual physical dependency.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:56 AM
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I agree with Sifu in 338. "Sex addict" gets thrown around in divorce or custody cases, but I think most reputable experts agree with 338.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:00 AM
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I'm not an addict; my body just developed this massive blog deficiency.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:06 AM
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Might was well face it. You have an underlying anxiety disorder causing compulsive behavior which manifests itself as an addiction to love.


Posted by: Opinionated Robert Palmer | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:06 AM
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338: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that we know how to treat the physical dependency, and that in most cases it's fairly straight forward. The difficulty in treatment / recovery is with...well, I'll call it "the other stuff," for now. ANYWAY, if treatment of "the other stuff," which you seem to dismiss out of hand as not being true addiction, is where everyone gets hung up...isn't that a distinction without a difference? If what makes addiction so difficult to treat is exactly the thing you claim doesn't fit the true definition of addiction, I'd say the problem is with your definition.

Supposing I'm right about treatment, of course. Though that has been my experience with the people I've known who've been treated for various addictions.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:27 AM
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342: I just think that attaching a noun to "addiction" per se ("sex", "exercise", "nintendo") produces a fairly marginal benefit treatment-wise and introduces the potential for a lot of negative societal externalities for people who merely enjoy, for instance, porn and bong hits but do not suffer from compulsive and/or addictive behaviors.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:46 AM
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IANAShrinkEither, took a run at it for a while, but anyway: what Sifu said. One thing I'd quibble with, though, you treat withdrawal medically, but not dependence. I guess I'm sort of not counting methadone because it isn't exaaaactly treating the dependence. But like you give an alcoholic benzos in detox because otherwise they could die, whereas the rest of their treatment is behavioral. The thing that's ambiguous here I think is physical dependency, very clearly a physical thing, vs. addiction which...12-step model says it's a disease, but it feels like a term of art.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:46 AM
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"but not dependence" s/b "but not addiction," I guess. Dependence seemingly can refer to addiction or the physical condition that leads to very observable, dangerous withdrawal symptoms.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:48 AM
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But, as per the normal way around here, I'm basically talking out my ass. I can certainly see the benefit for somebody who is suffering unhappily with addiction of a therapy group that shares their sordid, unhealthy relationship to puppy-acquisition or twirling.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:49 AM
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I guess I'm sort of not counting methadone because it isn't exaaaactly treating the dependence.

I used to be addicted to smoking, then I was addicted to nicotine patches.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:49 AM
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12-step model says it's a disease, but it feels like a term of art

Exactly.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:49 AM
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346: I think puppy collecting is less common than "holy shit is that way too many cats for one lady in a house."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:51 AM
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Of course the history of the switch to the addiction/disease model of alcoholism doesn't look like a scientific discovery, either.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 7:55 AM
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343 and 344: Yeah. But I think there is a lot of awareness (leading to mocking) of the abuse of addiction as a term of art. I dunno, brains are complicated. They do crazy shit.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 8:02 AM
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OT: is this real?

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/Granted-ve-got-idiots/article-2742305-detail/article.html


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 8:07 AM
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re; 352

Yes. They've tried to stir up a few of these EDL protests. They don't really get very far, and in almost every case have attracted massive counter-demonstrations.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 8:10 AM
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Leicestershire is real. Except it is pronounced "Wooster."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 8:10 AM
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As in the English sports headline, "Lester Bangs Wooster".


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 8:30 AM
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PAC 10 headline: "Husky women subdue Ducks."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 8:32 AM
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you know what, you guys? I thought I was pretty normal. everyone thinks they're normal, right? I actually wasn't self-deprecating in the secret vanity mode. so, say you don't have four orgasms during sex, do you have two? is one or none the normal thing for women? that sounds kind of horrible. I never thought I was a total freak in this regard. friends have been like "I hate you" about it a few times, but not right across the board.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 9:10 AM
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No, you are very lucky. Depending on the partner, I range from none to 2-3, sometimes more if I'm lucky. It takes me a while to warm up, but once I do, usually rapid succession. But they vary in intensity and coordination (weaker is more common than completely losing my mind), and sometimes it seems like the flow of opioids in my brain is independent of everything else. Basically, I can be a little spastic in this arena, too.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 9:22 AM
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Also, that h/itachi craziness? It's like insta-orgasm, but the first one isn't that great, like the rest of my body hasn't had time to catch up and is just left confused.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 9:24 AM
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357: Having even one per session would be lucky. I think I had two in 2009. But as others have said, the rest of it is fun.


Posted by: Jane Pierce | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 9:25 AM
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PAC 10 headline: "Husky women subdue Ducks."
You really took the high road on that one. The PAC-10 is just rife with opportunity for that kind of thing.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 9:26 AM
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353: it seems almost too good to be true. Especially the police car spotter.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 9:28 AM
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362: I KNOW, RIGHT?


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 9:30 AM
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Hmm. I am a hedgehog here among the foxes. Just one -- but ἓν μέγα. When there are more, they are generally lesser, less satisfying, and if there are many more, generally leave me feeling overstimulated and unfinished, rather than blown away and fully satisfied.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 9:36 AM
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I'd be roughly with dona, with the caveat that I haven't been with a 'none' partner since dinosaurs roamed the earth (oh, the very, very occasional "Huh, I guess I wasn't really into it tonight" these days, but I can't think the last time that happened.) Two or three would be pretty standard, with more as an option if we have time and energy for it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 10:08 AM
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I'm with Oudemia, on the "overstimulated" part as well. That's per session (not per day, should the will and occasion arise).


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 11:01 AM
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366: That did actually happen to me recently, for the first time. I did not know how to react. It was like I'd blown a circuit.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 11:03 AM
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367: What, the oversensitivity? That's what I mean by "overstimulated" (it may not be what Oudemia meant).


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 11:22 AM
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355, 356: Inevitably, the conversation turns toward Cox jokes.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 12:04 PM
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I am also Oud.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 12:12 PM
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In my experience with 3 women the average number of orgasms per instance of sex is 1, with a standard deviation of 0.00. Well, maybe the average is 0.95 or something. The immediate post-MMO response is very similar to mine, that is, "ow, that has suddenly become too sensitive to touch anymore, stop, stop, whew."


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 12:15 PM
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I get the over-sensitivity, but not as bad as most it seems. I was more referring to suddenly being completely sexed-out for more than a trivial amount of time. Like, I was just done. Needed significant time to recover. It was....weird.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 12:18 PM
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371: I haven't determined what MMO means yet, but right, the "ow, that has suddenly .. don't touch right now ..." is about it, and seemed roughly symmetrical to the male experience. In my experience. Just for the clitoris.

I don't know why I've felt the need to share on this, except that Alameida asked, and I thought there should be some clarification on the topic of foxes vs. hedgehogs.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 12:47 PM
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373: you mean, you would like clarification? I assume Oud was referencing Archilocus, perhaps by way of Isiah Berlin: πόλλ' οἶδ' ἀλώπηξ, ἀλλ' ἐχῖνος ἓν μέγα ("the fox knows many little things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing").

I will not speculate about whether there was any subtext about hedghogs being prickly versus foxes being soft and silky, but I'm sure apo could come up with something.

And now, off to hear Ronald Dworkin, the Hedgehog of Justice, on international law and human rights. Woo!


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:02 PM
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I haven't determined what MMO means yet

It's the male version of the fox. (There's a Ron Jeremy joke in there somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment.)


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:07 PM
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I kind of feel like the relative lack of actual data on female sexuality makes it more important that women talk about their real life experiences. So...yay for anonymity on the internet! Seriously, how awesome is that? Not great for the publishers of Our Bodies, Our Selves, probably, but awesome for any googling tweens out there with questions.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:08 PM
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374: Yes, to Archilochos.
I'm certainly familiar with the "no touch!" oversensitive thing, but what I meant by "overstimulated" was, er, brought to point where nothing feels done yet, so that going for more seems like it might be a good idea, but the returns are beyond diminished.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:08 PM
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Maximum mouth opening?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:12 PM
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I like it how x trapnel seems kinda drunk all the time these days. Highly approved.

"Mostly Made-up Orgasm"


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:16 PM
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Right, well, the jury's still out on MMO, unless Halford is right in 379, but then I'm a little puzzled.

374: Thanks for the clarification. It's not what I'd meant, but that's okay, since I hadn't been aware of the Archilochos.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:27 PM
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Right, well, the jury's still out on MMO, unless Halford is right in 379, but then I'm a little puzzled.

No, but Josh has it in 375 (is this where use/mention is important?).


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:31 PM
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My (female) partner averages 0 orgasms per encounter when there isn't a vibrator involved, and probably 0.75 when there is (She's particular to the coil-style ones. I got her a H/itachi as a gift once, but it didn't seem to do it for her). Her reaction, post-sex, to roll over and go to sleep is even stronger than mine, so there isn't usually an opportunity to have a second go-round.


Posted by: David Cameron | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 1:52 PM
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338: That was my view as well. It turns out, though, that the person who runs our mathadone clinic thinks that gambling addiction is legit. And for a lot of people who gamble to excess total abstinence is probably the right call.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:07 PM
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383: the person who runs our mathadone clinic thinks that gambling addiction is legit

Is the mathadone clinic where gambling addicts get their pretend scratch-off cards? I imagine a bunch of shivering, strung-out people with haunted eyes trying vainly to fill in a sudoku as their hands shake uncontrollably.*

*Note: Addiction is not actually funny. Mostly.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:11 PM
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How many rounds can the guys here manage in a day?


Posted by: Rosalyn Carter | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:13 PM
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Or if that's too personal a question for the guys, would any women be willing to say what their partners are or have been willing and able to do?


Posted by: Rosalyn Carter | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:16 PM
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Is how many in a day really the right question? I'd think of it more as what's the necessary rest period inbetween.

Oh, man, remember I-think-it-was-Otto's evil girlfriend who timed him between bouts in an attempt to incentivize a shorter refractory period?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:22 PM
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387: seriously, what could be the incentive? Wouldn't they be having sex as much as possible anyway?


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:29 PM
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385: Maxed out at 4, I believe. And that was over a good 12 or 14 hours. But I wasn't trying for any more than that.


Posted by: William Howard Taft | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:31 PM
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388: I can't imagine. There are all sorts of mean things people do to each other, but that one really surprised me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:33 PM
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The classic answer.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:36 PM
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387: Sure, but for some men morning sex means that evening/night sex, while possible, is still draining and not much fun. Evening to the next morning can work great. So, basically once a day.


Posted by: RC | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:39 PM
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383, 384: Is "mathadone" a typo? Even if yes, it is still great.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:40 PM
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393: It was a typo.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:41 PM
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Morning to night or night to morning, no problem at all. With an hour or so's wait, President Adams can get it up, but doesn't come, so the encounter tends to peter off unsatisfyingly when I get bored and chafed. Successfully having sex ending in an orgasm for him requires more like a two-three hour wait. I can't remember the peak number of encounters in a day, but it was probably way back when we were first dating and had time to hang around in bed all day -- if I were going to guess for an all time high, maybe four, maybe five.


Posted by: Abigail Adams | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 5:50 PM
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Back when we had nothng better to do, we could hit 7 or 8. That would be morning, afternoon, and night.


Posted by: William J. Clinton | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:01 PM
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A semester was Ogged's refractory period. Heh.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:06 PM
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391: Strangely, ogged still makes me laugh.

On the how often per day for guys question, I think this must also depend a bit on age. As well as temperament. Not to mention the stage of the relationship (let's not forget that sex is as much psychological, a function of excitement, as physical).

That said, maybe four? In the height of relationship freshness and youth. Only for certain guys.

I think that there is a lot of focus on PIV sex in this discussion, also! Hasn't anyone spent practically the whole day in bed with someone, with a variety of things going on, including the serving of tea and crumpets, and reading aloud, along with back rubs and butt rubs & etc., then the breaking out of actual sex, pause to shower and refresh, laugh and continue on ...? I mean, who's counting, anyway?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:09 PM
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the serving of tea and crumpets,

This must be some sort of elaborate euphemism. I have never served anyone a crumpet, thank you very much!


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:14 PM
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I can't say I'm clear on what a crumpet is. But that does not mean I'm ignorant of crumpets! Just give me a minute to google.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:28 PM
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Just teasing, parsimon. I've never had one in the States (good lord, is that phrase pretentious) but I'm led to understand you can get them here. They're tasty.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:32 PM
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Not exactly English muffins, but close enough that that gives you the idea. Round bread object that you toast and butter.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:32 PM
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CA makes crumpets! Om nomnomnom.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:33 PM
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(clears throat)

402: Yeah, that's what I thought. So anyway, serving of tea and crumpets. Or coffee and an english muffin, possibly with strawberry preserves, and/or a sliced apple. Good to go.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:41 PM
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394: For anybody who teaches a GED class to addicts, it would be a perfect group name.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:49 PM
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As far as I can remember, I am done for at least a hour after orgasm. But if I can avoid orgasm in the first 10 mins, I can mostly control whether I orgasm and we can do it for several hours. Taking breaks for tea and crumpets, of course.

Id much rather do it that way than orgasm quickly.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:52 PM
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406 isn't me... Laydeez. Wait. Dammit.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:56 PM
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385: I'm not sure how we're defining "round" here. In ideal conditions, when I was in my twenties a "round" meant a session of lovemaking lasting from forty to ninety minutes and involving 2-3 orgasms on my part (ideally more for my partner), of which I could do three to four a day assuming we both had the time. Similar in my thirties, except more than one orgasm in a session for me is a thing of the past.


Posted by: Jeffrey Lee Wainwright | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 6:57 PM
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no time to read whole thread, but shit, when i get old and raisiny i'm going to be using some drugs. bupropion or selegiline, probably.

not letting yoru DA neurones die off in the first place would be a bright idea though. http://surplus.unipa.it/oa/bitstream/10447/49596/1/A%20diet%20for%20dopaminergic%20neurons%20ch%2027.pdf is a very good recent overview of practical choices.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 8:18 PM
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which ties into slightly earlier thread where i owuld like to add the 'desease' model of psychiatry is cockpunch-worthy


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 8:21 PM
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jeffry lee, you know my actual family name...um, whatever. my mother's last name, to be more accurate.
on the "arg don't touch me anymore for a few seconds" I always refer to it as the tender buttons problem. reading the thread more: you guys were all snippy about how I was being boastful, but did you consider that I don't really ever like to have sex all that long? I have had partners who were annoyed: "I'm just getting started here!" "wev, after 12 I get bored, go away." not bored, but there are diminishing returns, as oudemia indicated.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 10:51 PM
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Are people still uncertain on MMO? I thought it was Multiple Male Orgasms. Not that I've had any.

Also, I quite like crumpets. I thought most supermarkets had them next to the english muffins; I never thought they were that hard to come by.


Posted by: persistently visible | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 11:07 PM
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Alameida, I do hope your problem gets better. But, and I say this with all the affection of a pretend internet friend, adding "I get bored of sex" to the works is not exactly the key to releasing the floodgates of my sympathy.


Posted by: persistently visible | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 11:17 PM
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412.2: Oh, they probably aren't hard to come by. I've just never actively gone looking and never been served them here.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 11:24 PM
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414 to 412.1.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 11:46 PM
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Oh, no, never had a problem finding the MMO. Crumpets, on the other hand?


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 10-14-10 11:55 PM
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I'm going to be embarrassed about that one in the morning.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 12:03 AM
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maybe I should write a weezer song.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 1:11 AM
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I always thought a good weezer song might start, "What's with these homies dissing my girl? Why do they gotta front?"


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 1:21 AM
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I have had partners who were annoyed: "I'm just getting started here!"

Ooh, hold on baby, I'm almost there!


Posted by: anhedonic Zeno | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 1:23 AM
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Crumpet is also used here as a euphemism for an attractive woman. It always makes me think of Joan Bakewell, who was called "the thinking man's crumpet" for (apparently) 50 years. Perhaps the bakewell/crumpet thing is what made it stick.

Anyway, real crumpets are very nice. I like them with butter and Marmite.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 1:51 AM
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I like them with butter and Marmite.

WTactualF! Marmite? I can sort of see why marmite-liking freaks can have it on ryvitas, or wholemeal bread, and the like, but defiling the noble crumpet?!

[Shudder]


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 2:02 AM
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Oh, us freaks will find any excuse to use the stuff!


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 3:03 AM
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423 gets it exactly right.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 4:08 AM
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crumpets and Marmite are wonderful. But not, crumpets and cheese. Ugh. And not, scones and Marmite. Super Ugh.


Posted by: ptl | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 6:13 AM
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379: I like it how x trapnel seems is kinda drunk all the time these days. Highly approved.

Fixed that for you. Glad you're enjoying it!


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:02 AM
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you'll need to up your game to move Btock-style off its pedestal. drink more.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:47 AM
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And eat something weird.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:53 AM
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I dunno. I was thinking that I'll have to slow down, now that I'm in the land of €2 bottles of local wine & €3 sixpacks of good beer.

Wait, no, that wasn't what I was thinking at all.

In other news: Singapore Airlines is just absurdly awesome. I just had a genuinely pleasant coach-class red-eye cross-Atlantic plane flight. I can't even imagine what goes on in business or first class, but it's probably illegal.

Also, I still need to figure out what to do until I get my apartment back next Wednesday--suggestions? The weather has decided to get cold and wet just in time for my arrival.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:10 AM
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429: err, to clarify, when I asked for suggestions I meant suggestions of nearby places to visit for a few days--places that would be neat even in bad weather. As opposed to suggestions about how to find a bed for the night in Heidelberg.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:20 AM
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Duel for it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:21 AM
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429: business class is the fucking shit. fully flat bed, hot rolls, hot chicks at your beck and call, delicious food. I can only imagine there's oral sex involved in first class.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:40 AM
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"anhedonic Zeno" FTW. That was beautiful.

Marmite on crumpets, though... that's getting the full-on shudder over here. I might even have to do two consecutive eye-rolls.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 12:35 PM
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Have a smoke in front of DKFZ, as a start to your collection of cigarettes smoked by cancer research centers of the world. Otherwise, not exactly a party town for strangers. Take the fast train to Hamburg and enjoy the Reeperbahn?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 12:48 PM
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But not, crumpets and cheese. Ugh.

Nope, I'm afraid you're wrong, *toasted* cheese on crumpets is excellent, because (like the butter and the Marmite) the cheese goes down the holes.

And, you could put Marmite on a cheese scone.

I do prefer savoury to sweet.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 5:17 PM
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Re 434 - oh yes, and then come to Oxford and have a fag outside the Richard Doll Building! (A sneaky fag, obvs (which my newly-8 year old says constantly), because I'm pretty sure smoking is banned on the hospital site.)


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 5:20 PM
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