Re: Ask the Mineshaft: Evergreen

1

Yeah, that actually sounds like a great opportunity to learn stuff and have some freedom to make plans for the rest of your life, without buying in to the horror that is the academic job market. If you want to start a company, you can think about it and make plans while you're studenting, and drop out of the program if it looks as if it's a good time to start it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
2

Fancy degrees make fancy VCs give money to people who want to start companies!

(Also: Taking classes is fun! At least stick around for the MA.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:10 AM
horizontal rule
3

bonus serotonin flood of blissful relief that all my grad school dropout friends reported when they left their programs.

It's almost worth starting a PhD program just for this.

I sometimes think the reason people discourage other people from doing PhDs in the humanities isn't the scarcity of jobs but the institutional culture that scarcity has bred in said programs. There can be an air of preëmptive defeat among grad students, a lack of any sense of a scholarly community among faculty who wanted different jobs and often leave after a few years...and I may be over-generalizing but it did seem, in my program, that the people who were most successful were good academics in this very narrow sense that did not extend to being someone you would really want to know.

Cum grano salis, cum magn[case ending] grano salis. I sort of wasn't a good fit for my program, so some of this, eh...


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:14 AM
horizontal rule
4

Counterpoint to 2: classes are not fun! Thank god I only had to take one in grad school.

So, some questions that come to mind are:

What kind of financial package will you have? Would he be supporting you the whole time, or would you be working as a TA, or what? What about travel funding? Since you got this offer and didn't go through the normal application process, you might not have a good sense of whether the deal you're getting is a good one. (And it would be hard for any of us to say without knowing your field, probably...)

It sounds like you're not all that interested in an academic career. Is that accurate? If so, I guess the main reason to do a PhD is if you think the research is fun?

Advice in academia always seems to be to go somewhere else whenever possible -- if you're already working for this guy, and you want an academic career, it might be smart to go elsewhere for a PhD so you get a broader perspective, more collaborators, more potential letter-writers, etc. But it sounds like this advice probably doesn't apply, given your future plans.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
5

It seems like it might be easier to start a company as a grad student than an corporate employee, no? More flexibility, easier access to young people with diverse talents.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
6

5 is what I was thinking as well.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:20 AM
horizontal rule
7

5: Except for the paperwork saying that anything you create while a student is the property of your university....


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:21 AM
horizontal rule
8

Forgot that. Is there any way to block out time as 'off duty'? Corporate employees can keep their work if they can show it was on their own time, I think, but of course your own time is an obscure concept for a student.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:23 AM
horizontal rule
9

7: Are those contracts more onerous than the ones you often have to sign for corporate employment? Unless of course you'd be working on something completely unrelated.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:23 AM
horizontal rule
10

Those university contracts often also promise intellectual property rights support, so it may not be all bad.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:24 AM
horizontal rule
11

What kind of financial package will you have? Would he be supporting you the whole time, or would you be working as a TA, or what? What about travel funding?

I'm not really sure. I know that there are a lot of grant-awarding organizations who are interested in supporting the project I've been (and would continue to be) working on.

Since you got this offer and didn't go through the normal application process, you might not have a good sense of whether the deal you're getting is a good one.

I would actually have to go through the normal application process; the assumption is that he would be able to put his thumb on the scale to get me into the department by saying he wanted me as his student.

(And it would be hard for any of us to say without knowing your field, probably...)

Let's call it (non-clinical) psychology.

It sounds like you're not all that interested in an academic career. Is that accurate? If so, I guess the main reason to do a PhD is if you think the research is fun?

Partly, yes. I'm excited to do research, and I really like the idea of having some published work under my belt. Also, I really like my current job -- interesting, varied work, cool co-workers -- but it's on a grant with a fixed duration. If not for grad school I might have to move on in a year or so. Third, I've long thought of grad school (well, in some fields) as sort of a breeding ground for interesting ideas with potential commercial applications. The specific stuff this guy studies doesn't connect very obviously with the kinds of applications that might attract venture funding down the road, but on the other hand he does have big-picture plans that interest me.

Advice in academia always seems to be to go somewhere else whenever possible -- if you're already working for this guy, and you want an academic career, it might be smart to go elsewhere for a PhD so you get a broader perspective, more collaborators, more potential letter-writers, etc. But it sounds like this advice probably doesn't apply, given your future plans.

I'm working for him, but I've never gone to school here; I was brought on as a hired gun, essentially, but it could potentially turn into something more.


Posted by: Fresh Meat | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
12

Sounds like a good deal. A pragmatic attitude and a solid sense of your own alternative choices helps avoid the common grad student feeling that leaving the program is less like moving jobs and more like failing an IQ test. (Oddly, though, this feeling tends only to keep them in the program indefinitely rather than spurring them to do any useful work: in fact, it can be a disincentive to produce anything at all, because of how much less indicative of one's high IQ any actual paper would be in comparison to the many brilliant papers one might possibly get around to writing.)


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:31 AM
horizontal rule
13

8, 9: Not sure. I remember what I had to sign in grad school as sounding like it was making a pretty sweeping claim to whatever I did in my free time, but I could be mistaken. At any rate, it's something for Fresh Meat to investigate.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:32 AM
horizontal rule
14

Sounds like a good deal with respect to your own preferences, I mean, and subject to the usual caveats about getting admitted and properly funded, I mean.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:33 AM
horizontal rule
15

Counterpoint to 2: classes are not fun! Thank god I only had to take one in grad school.

Classes taught by interesting people are fun. Classes taught by uninteresting people aren't. Who'da thunk it! And you never know what you're going to get, except that, since Fresh Meat has been actually working in the department in question s/he probably has a better idea than most. So that's a start.

I'd say it has tpo come down to filthy lucre in the end. If FM can afford it, s/he should definitely follow heris instinct. If not, probably not. There's a reason that the word "misery" is derived from the Latin for "poor".


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:33 AM
horizontal rule
16

I'm not really sure. I know that there are a lot of grant-awarding organizations who are interested in supporting the project I've been (and would continue to be) working on.

It's something to ask him about, I guess. He might be able to pay you out of his grant. You also might want to look into fellowships, which would guarantee you a good (for grad school) salary for a few years (and you would want to look soon -- I think the NSF graduate research fellowship deadline is coming up within the next month).


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:34 AM
horizontal rule
17

11: This sounds like you want to do it, and aren't going to be heartbroken by the academic job market horror. I'd do it. BTW, are you anonymous for a reason? I haven't looked at your IP address, but I've got a strong opinion about who you are.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:34 AM
horizontal rule
18

Grad school in a lab is generally a horrible experience because your progress has very little to do with how hard you work or what you do or whether you have any ideas -- it is entirely based on who you end up working for, and what project you end up working for. This can mean a difference between graduating in 4 years and graduating in 10 years for the exact same student. Since you already respect this person and are interested in what he's doing, it seems like a much lower-risk scenario than it would be for most people. Assuming you get a stipend of some sort.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:35 AM
horizontal rule
19

17: It's a little more personal information than I'd generally reveal on here, and it's also very early in the process, so I'd prefer to stay anonymous for now.


Posted by: Fresh Meat | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:37 AM
horizontal rule
20

19: No problem -- that was what I wanted to know, if it was a real desire for anonymity, or just a cute signature for the letter.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:39 AM
horizontal rule
21

1) Do you have a sense of the grad student work hours in that lab and do you think you can squeeze in some time for a startup on the side?

2) I wouldn't worry about the IP stuff. Reasonable scenarios are that a) they'd leave you alone or b) they patent it for you in exchange for a share of the company.

3) Will you have time to take a class or two related to the startup ideas you have? (If this is CS related, machine learning might be an idea.)


Posted by: BA | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 8:42 AM
horizontal rule
22

the people who were most successful were good academics in this very narrow sense that did not extend to being someone you would really want to know

Ha! As I mostly give up on the idea of getting an academic position somewhere, this is probably the thing that has done the most to keep me from getting down on myself. 'That person got a job?! Well, if that's what they were looking for, they were clearly never going to be interested in me.'


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 9:04 AM
horizontal rule
23

re: 22

Yes, I console myself the same way. But secretly I know I did sort of sabotage my own chances, at least a bit, along the way.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 9:08 AM
horizontal rule
24

8, 9: Not sure. I remember what I had to sign in grad school as sounding like it was making a pretty sweeping claim to whatever I did in my free time, but I could be mistaken. At any rate, it's something for Fresh Meat to investigate.

At my grad school it was something along the lines of 21.2, and I knew some folks who did just that.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 9:34 AM
horizontal rule
25

Go for the Masters, emphasize networking to the maximum extent possible along the way. If your supervisor is on board you might be able to get significant assistance with networking, as well as a fairly easy course of study. A friend of mine told his advisor that he didn't give a damn about physics anymore, he just wanted to be rich, so got assigned a simple thesis topic fleshing out an abandoned model of GR, then went to Wall Street to destroy the economy.

I flirted with the idea of bailing after my Masters and starting a company, but was too blinkered by the culture of grad school to do it. Second biggest regret of my life is not taking that path.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 9:47 AM
horizontal rule
26

With a clear view of transferable skills and the job market, grad school doesn't threaten any practical disaster. The other possible trap is psychological-- smart people finish, I have to believe I'm smart, I have to finish even if my project/advisor/school/field are a tar pit. This does not sound like the asker's case.

Have others in the field successfully started companies? It's not that easy to make or to attract money, I think. Detailed business plan, lots of talent, extreme dedication are a baseline. Detailed business plan means understanding who will pay you in a detailed way, and even more importantly who your competition is and how much the competition charges, which is unlikely to be public information. This part of the question raises more alarms to me than the grad school part, actually.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 9:49 AM
horizontal rule
27

emphasize networking to the maximum extent possible along the way

Definitely this.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 9:50 AM
horizontal rule
28

||

Totes thinking of u

|>


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 9:58 AM
horizontal rule
29

I think I may have introduced more complexity than was necessary to the question with the whole "maybe start a company" thing, but I should explain myself a little bit more. I don't currently have a burning idea for a company that I could profitably start. I have ideas for ways to explore concepts that could lead to ideas for companies, but that would be down the road. My initial theory that lead me to consider grad school was that I could explore those ideas and possibly find some hungry young collaborators and well-known emeritus types to sign on once it seemed like there was a concept ready to pop. It seems less likely that this will happen in the department I am considering than it would in, say, a computer science department, but never say never (and I think it has in fact happened before). Also, the project I'm currently working on -- while very different from something that a for-profit startup would concern themselves with -- is a Big Idea, and could eventually get to a point where it needed to be spun off into an external organization that I would, presumably, be well placed to create or manage.


Posted by: Fresh Meat | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:00 AM
horizontal rule
30

Was [probably soon to be deleted] 28 directed at me? Awwww, sweeet.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:02 AM
horizontal rule
31

Also, the project I'm currently working on -- while very different from something that a for-profit startup would concern themselves with -- is a Big Idea, and could eventually get to a point where it needed to be spun off into an external organization that I would, presumably, be well placed to create or manage.

This really does make grad school sound like a good idea. Not that you'd specifically count on exactly that happening, but if that's the sort of thing you're interested in doing, it sounds as if you'd be getting yourself well placed for that sort of opportunity to become available.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:04 AM
horizontal rule
32

30: You may be a Jock, but you're no frat boy.

(Ho ho ho.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:06 AM
horizontal rule
33

Um. I know many people who are not having any luck in the non-academic job market, and would kill to be in this kind of position. Just do the program. Worst case scenario you are well positioned to enter into the business world several years down the line, when the job market has hopefully begun to recover? Is this really a question?


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:07 AM
horizontal rule
34

Worst case scenario you are well positioned to enter into the business world several years down the line, when the job market has hopefully begun to recover? Is this really a question?

Well, it's not a question I have very much doubt about, but I know there are a lot of people who will very vocally point out that grad school is almost always a bad idea, and I wanted to make sure to give those people a chance to try to talk me out of this, in case there was something I wasn't thinking of.


Posted by: Fresh Meat | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:12 AM
horizontal rule
35

34: Can you create for yourself some interdisciplinary playtime with the CS department when you figure out your course of study?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:13 AM
horizontal rule
36

35: I suspect that I can, and that's actually already sort of happening.


Posted by: Fresh Meat | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:15 AM
horizontal rule
37

Oops.


Posted by: Fresh Meat | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:15 AM
horizontal rule
38

Right, especially since you're not all that attached to a degree at the end of it, it seems as if you've got a lot of freedom (within the parameters of keeping your boss happy) to mess around with interdisciplinary stuff at will (or, insofar as you can find people to go along with it).


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:15 AM
horizontal rule
39

Fresh Meat: I hope you aren't planning to use your powers for evil.

If I find it's an iPhone app that does subliminal operant conditioning on the users, I'll be annoyed.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:19 AM
horizontal rule
40

Oh my God, doooooo it. If only to make me jealous.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:19 AM
horizontal rule
41

39: I will be annoyed, impressed, and horrified, and then I will try to steal it.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:20 AM
horizontal rule
42

We'll know if sales of kung-fu slippers suddenly go through the roof ...


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:21 AM
horizontal rule
43

37: Re-anonymized.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:25 AM
horizontal rule
44

I think this is the first time I've ever correctly guessed the pseudonym of a presidential regular.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:27 AM
horizontal rule
45

I suspect I haven't made it too difficult for people.


Posted by: Fresh Meat | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:31 AM
horizontal rule
46

Anyhow, thanks everybody. Much helpful advice, particularly including the NSF fellowship idea.

I just got some more useful advice from somebody here, who said I should really apply to multiple places, because there's always a chance that my boss won't actually be able to talk the department into letting him have a new graduate student.


Posted by: Fresh Meat | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:37 AM
horizontal rule
47

I just got some more useful advice from somebody here, who said I should really apply to multiple places, because there's always a chance that my boss won't actually be able to talk the department into letting him have a new graduate student.

That would be good advice for someone who wanted to go to graduate school, but is that you? I thought you wanted to keep working on this particular project with your current boss and explore opportunities you know about where you are now. Is being in a different grad school on a different project something you actually want to do?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:41 AM
horizontal rule
48

Also, congratulations are in order, I'm...pretty sure.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:42 AM
horizontal rule
49

because there's always a chance that my boss won't actually be able to talk the department into letting him have a new graduate student.

You have to promise to feed it and clean up after it and teach it stuff. And it can't sleep in your bed.



Posted by: Opinionated Department Chair | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:46 AM
horizontal rule
50

47: That would be my first choice, but a distant third choice would be to find myself unemployed at the conclusion of this one year contract. There are other programs I could apply to (and other professors I could work with) where I would likely still be able to collaborate at some level with the people I'm working with here.


Posted by: Fresh Meat | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:48 AM
horizontal rule
51

45: If I got it, you didn't.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 11:06 AM
horizontal rule
52

/
/
I'm sitting at the U of M/innesota watching Tea Party snag Emmer get pwned.
/
/


Posted by: JRobot | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 3:57 PM
horizontal rule
53

OT: Why do they sell prunes individually wrapped in plastic?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 4:05 PM
horizontal rule
54

Because fastidious Americans find sticky snacks disturbing.

Or, because we live in the last days before fire falls from the sky and wipes us all out.

One or the other.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 4:07 PM
horizontal rule
55

Why do they sell prunes individually wrapped in plastic?

They will stick together, like raisins, otherwise. A minor complaint, but Big Food is all about the customer service and value add.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 4:08 PM
horizontal rule
56

pwned on produce by LB. What a world


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 4:09 PM
horizontal rule
57

52: sitting at the U of M/innesota

Wait, who are you? Do I know you? Do I want to know you? Do you want to know me? Does anyone really know anyone in this crazy, mixed-up world?

Anyway, I am going home early today. In anticipation of working all weekend. Sigh.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 4:09 PM
horizontal rule
58

54, 55: I felt so bad for the earth that I bought the greenest wine I could find. It was in a box and made from New York state grapes. Environmental awareness tastes like tastes like Kool Aid and grain alcohol.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 4:52 PM
horizontal rule
59

Environmental awareness tastes like tastes like Kool Aid and grain alcohol.

Somehow I don't think boxed wine is served on Al Gore's private jet. But I could be wrong.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 4:56 PM
horizontal rule
60

I should clarify, that wasn't a complaint. It was cheaper than Kool Aid and grain alcohol.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 4:58 PM
horizontal rule
61

Franzia does indeed promote their product as the most environmentally responsible wine available.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:24 PM
horizontal rule
62

tastes like Kool Aid and grain alcohol.

An under-rated drink to be sure. I think I've had some pretty good evenings with Kool Aid and grain alcohol, but, you know, who really knows about that stuff.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:25 PM
horizontal rule
63

Bums live a pretty ecologically conscious lifestyle. Lots of recycling and little consumption. So what I'm saying is that using crack and drinking MD 20/20 are about the most environmentally responsible things you can do.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:30 PM
horizontal rule
64

Everclear and Tang is kind of horrible.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:31 PM
horizontal rule
65

Tang is kind of horrible.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:33 PM
horizontal rule
66

64: Better or worse than cotton-candy-flavored vodka?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:35 PM
horizontal rule
67

|| My mother is watching the Yankee game and sending me hilarious IMs. "i would like to make them eat those rags they are waving" and, my favorite, "FFFFFFFFFFF." |>


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 7:36 PM
horizontal rule
68

57: Maybe? What field are you in?


Posted by: JennyRobot | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:00 PM
horizontal rule
69

Kool-aid and grain alcohol is pretty good, considering. If you see people artisanally hand-crafting crack, you will see it involves horrible chemicals and disgusting smoke that means if you open your apartment window facing the airshaft at the bottom of which your super is making crack it will be noxious. ime. but maybe that dude was doing it rong.
as a phd drop out I think fresh meat should go for it.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:34 PM
horizontal rule
70

Kool-aid and grain alcohol is pretty good, considering.

When I moved into my dorm room freshman year, my roommate, who got there before me, waited until my parents left and then showed me the "For Emergencies" cabinet, which was stocked with grain alcohol and Hawaiian Punch. Came in handy on a few emotionally fraught nights.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-15-10 10:43 PM
horizontal rule
71

My freshman year in college will attest that Kool-Aid does an amazing job covering up the taste of foul liquor. Pepe Lopez clear tequila, in particular. You could mix that stuff 1:1 and drink it like it was nothing.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:30 AM
horizontal rule
72

Late and the conversation has moved on but:

Grad School!

Slowly I turned, step ... by ... step ...

1. Grad School isn't a stepping stone. It's not like Law School, which is the step between college and starting a career in law. A PhD program shouldn't be regarded as the step between college and an academic career. Those who looked at the life of a tenured full professor, thought it a nice gig and wanted some of it, so went for a PhD as preparation are doomed to disappointment. It's an experience in itself. If you'll enjoy the experience, you go for it; if you won't stay away.

2. No-one has to finish a PhD. Back in the dot-com days, we used to say, "if it isn't fun, why do it?" Working 18 hours a day on a project (and dreaming about it the other 6) simply isn't bearable if you don't actually enjoy it. The same thing applies to a PhD. Once you stop enjoying the experience (if you're not that close to finishing), quit.


Posted by: jim | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:31 AM
horizontal rule
73

71: oh man it's been 20 years but I'm still not ready to talk about drinking Pepe Lopez tequila like it's nothing.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:35 AM
horizontal rule
74

||
No more masturbating to Benoit Mandelbrot.
|>


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:37 AM
horizontal rule
75

||

Also: for a given point c on the complex plane iterate the function z_(t+1) = z_t^2 + c as t goes to infinity and if z does not spiral off to infinity you still have to stop masturbating to Benoit Mandelbrot.

|>


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:37 AM
horizontal rule
76

dangit! I had to go for the damn formula.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:38 AM
horizontal rule
77

You added value.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:09 AM
horizontal rule
78

The other possible trap is psychological...

This. This, this, this. If getting into this trap--where your self-worth becomes completely wrapped up in your standing as an embryonic Researcher--is even remotely likely, given what you know of yourself, stay the fuck away from grad school. Not that I'm bitter or anything.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:49 AM
horizontal rule
79

78: But if you do fall into the trap and later become disillusioned, be sure to liveblog it.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:42 AM
horizontal rule
80

Masturbating to almond bread is still okay, though.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:48 AM
horizontal rule
81

8

... Corporate employees can keep their work if they can show it was on their own time, I think, ...

IANAL but it is my understanding that contract provisions to the contrary are enforcible in some states (not including California).


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 12:36 PM
horizontal rule
82

I like alcohol.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 3:18 PM
horizontal rule
83

I like you, too.


Posted by: Alcohol | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 3:21 PM
horizontal rule
84

Alcohol is not opinionated?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 3:23 PM
horizontal rule
85

I like alcohol, coconuts, and grapes.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 3:24 PM
horizontal rule
86

I regret slightly that I am intoxicated enough to think of "I like alcohol" as something worth posting but not enough so to make uproarious spelling errors. Hey but I conjured Standpipe and that's worth something.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 3:28 PM
horizontal rule
87

You have to look into a mirror and say Standpipe's name three times.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 3:31 PM
horizontal rule
88

I am opening a beer right now and thinking, my God! When was the last time I had beer? Was it really over a week ago?

I wanted to go out last night but was on codeine, which I haven't had in eight years or so.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 3:52 PM
horizontal rule
89

The grad school thread has become the alcohol thread? Seems right. We crushed 1400 lbs. of Grenache the other day, so more alcohol is on the way. Also, brewing tonight, so yet more alcohol.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 3:58 PM
horizontal rule
90

AWB I started to propose piano bar after theater but then I thought "I wonder how much I'll be in the mood to belt out Cabaret after Angels in America..."


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 4:04 PM
horizontal rule
91

I think if I want alcohol where I am now I have to go to some place with the scary name of "Liquor Control Board".


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 4:14 PM
horizontal rule
92

Mr. S, I am very concerned that I'll be recognized from last time. I distinctly recall shouting "42nd Street!" at least three times. Of course, it was the lesser pianist. I would never do that to the older, sad-faced man who plays till his muscles spasm.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 4:23 PM
horizontal rule
93

91: ah, no, that's a homonym. It's actually "Liquor Control Bored", as the liquor will keep your boredom firmly in check.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 4:45 PM
horizontal rule
94

89: this thread stayed on topic by far long enough in any case.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 4:46 PM
horizontal rule
95

Also too.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 4:47 PM
horizontal rule
96

91: Welcome to my world. (They actually call the stores "Wine and Spirits" but they are run by the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board.)


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:07 PM
horizontal rule
97

96: I read something this morning -- a review of restaurants in Philly -- that mentioned the "stifling" liquor laws in PA, such that it was "practically preferable to drink at a tavern rather than at home," was briefly puzzled, and thought of you all.

I'm actually just testing to see what the time stamp discrepancy around here is these days.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:32 PM
horizontal rule
98

||Watch all MLB postseason games live online for only $10, multiple camera angles available. Yay! Fuck. You have to actually click to switch cameras meaning if you're watching the home plate cam, all you see is the batter and the rest of the play is in crap radio version. In the forum threads the MLB folks kindly explain that they didn't explicitly say you were getting a normal TV broadcast type experience, and that you can choose the multiframe streaming. Commenters reply that: a) that's not ideal, and b) the camera feeds are all a couple seconds off of each other so it's worse than nothing. MLB moderators: oh well, sucks to be you.>|


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:35 PM
horizontal rule
99

I am thinking about cutting waaay back on the drinking. To like, 3 times a year or something.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:36 PM
horizontal rule
100

96: But where essear is they have beer stores called Beer Store.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:39 PM
horizontal rule
101

97: That's because we aren't allowed to have couches at home.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:40 PM
horizontal rule
102

100: Did they hire consultants to pick the name? Because the PLCB did.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:44 PM
horizontal rule
103

There's something mildly weird about imaginary internet friends remembering where I am whereas I have to remind people I see a few times a week that I'm out of town when they send me an email asking me to come to a meeting.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:46 PM
horizontal rule
104

I'm just thoughtful like that. I hope you like the chocolate I put on your pillow.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:47 PM
horizontal rule
105

Mmm, chocolate.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:48 PM
horizontal rule
106

99: I did that. It's fairly useful and it does wonders for the budget.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:49 PM
horizontal rule
107

I got to say that New York wine costing the equivalent of $4.50 a bottle gets old quicker than one might wish if one has three liters of it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:52 PM
horizontal rule
108

But, it does save money.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:52 PM
horizontal rule
109

106: I just don't want to ruin my health any more than I already have. And I'm always broke.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:55 PM
horizontal rule
110

102: I love that sort of thing, though not in a good way. A museum around here spent something like $150,000 for a consulting firm to come up with a name for an upcoming exhibit, which name turned out to be ... actually I should elide that. But so freaking obvious as to be jaw-dropping. The process took months, though, months! with focus groups and whatnot.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 5:57 PM
horizontal rule
111

I just recovered enough from my cold to go running for the first time in two weeks. Mocking parsimon causes bad colds.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:03 PM
horizontal rule
112

I'm tempted to spend my Saturday night drinking and working on job applications. This sounds like a good idea, right?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:07 PM
horizontal rule
113

As long as you mail them while still drunk.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:11 PM
horizontal rule
114

I have spent Saturday night making beautiful cannelini beans with beer, apple, and parsley, and just served them to myself with Mexican queso fresco. Holy shit.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:16 PM
horizontal rule
115

Since this is the open thread, I point toward this. Good piece on Andrew Bacevich and American foreign policy.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:21 PM
horizontal rule
116

I'm about to do a variant on the lamb chops with pistachio olive crust that someone posted about here the other day. That and roast tomatoes and rice, plus wine of course, should make for a nice late tasty boozy night.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:23 PM
horizontal rule
117

98 makes me dislike the MLB website even more intensely than I did already. Stupid forced registration, stupid unclear marketing language, stupid restrictions on live radio streams...bah. I think I last tried seriously to deal with it in 2008, and I've managed to block out most of the specifics.

There's something mildly weird endearing about imaginary internet friends remembering where I am whereas I have to remind people I see a few times a week that I'm out of town.

Fixed.

Did they hire consultants to pick the name? Because the PLCB did.

Wait, is that where we got "Fine Wine and Good Spirits"? Because I just walked past that poster today and wondered about it.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:41 PM
horizontal rule
118

||

Ah, this explains something I didn't understand before. My Serbian roommate, who is currently abroad, posted a link on Facebook about the riots at the gay pride parade in Serbia resulting in people hurling bombs at them and the police. I kept thinking, bombs? Haven't they heard of poorly-spelled snark on signs? But of course, it's about the nationalist extremists. Apparently they're also involved in causing riots over football matches. Way to go, nationalist fuckheads.

|>


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:47 PM
horizontal rule
119

From the link in 115:

Bacevich argues that a Washington consensus has dominated our thinking and our policy for the last 63 years (if not the last 70), that is, the span of our lifetimes. It is built, he says, around a trinity of ideas: that the United States is uniquely ordained to defend, and extend, the realm of freedom around the world; that that mission requires a network of far-flung bases; and that we must be willing to engage in combat, as necessary, to secure our aims. That consensus, he argues, has survived eleven changes of Administration (Presidents, actually, play relatively minor roles in his narrative, and with good reason), and cataclysmic events ranging from the Vietnam War to the collapse of Communism.

This seems generally correct to me, but didn't it start earlier? My superficial understanding of the Spanish-American War indicates that it lines up pretty well. Of course, I'm open to correction by lurking historians.

[I]n the late 1970s, Theodore Draper pointed out that no one who had had the sense to oppose the Vietnam War from the beginning seemed to have gained additional power and influence as a result, while no one who had advocated it seemed to have suffered any great loss of reputation or clout.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I don't buy bumper stickers, but I do sometimes think about the next war.

To Bacevich--and I am afraid that he is right--both tyrannies like Saddam's and terrorist attacks are simply excuses from "semiwarriors," as he calls them, like Robert McNamara, Wolfowitz, and Fred and Kimberly Kagan to keep American power moving forward, ever forward, without seriously asking what we are likely to accomplish or how it is going to make America safer.

What is "forward" supposed to mean in this context? Chronologically? Leapfrogging from destination to destination? I can't quite follow his argument.

Our obsession with overwhelming military power is one of the biggest reasons, I suspect, that Europe has done so much better at maintaining its infrastructure and its industrial plant than we have--we have given them and the Japanese the chance to focus on more important matters, and they have done so.

What a thoroughly depressing thought. The AFSC's opportunity-cost banners list dollar amounts of the Iraq War but mostly contrast them with human and social services. I haven't read a lot about military spending undercutting our ability to maintain infrastructure, but it's easy to see how it would work.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 6:59 PM
horizontal rule
120

117: Endearing, yes.

So the LCBO turns out to be surprisingly brightly-lit and antiseptic feeling, seeming more like a car dealership showroom than a liquor store. But their selection probably beats my friendly neighborhood liquor stores at home.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:10 PM
horizontal rule
121

114 and 116 sound tasty.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:12 PM
horizontal rule
122

98: You know what's worse than MLB.tv? Being forced into rooting for the fucking Rangers. What a world.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:14 PM
horizontal rule
123

119: My superficial understanding of the Spanish-American War indicates that it lines up pretty well.

You can (and should?) argue that American imperialism is baked into the cake starting from 1783. I have a book that argues exactly that but I haven't finished reading it yet. The Spanish-American war was simply the same imperialist impulse relocated out of the Americas.

Leapfrogging from destination to destination?

I think he means the forward expansion of the area effectively under American domination. For example the attempt by the Bush administration to, in essence, move into a position of dictating Russian internal policy, which is crazy, given that the Russians have 24,000 nuclear warheads.

max
['I should read the article!']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:14 PM
horizontal rule
124

Wait, is that where we got "Fine Wine and Good Spirits"?

I was repeating gossip and since you noticed I figured I'd better google shit and I can't find anything for it. I think the consultant was for renaming the stores, which never happened and is mentioned briefly here. However, the regional manager of the PLCB really did hire her husband's company as a consultant to improve employee courtesy.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:16 PM
horizontal rule
125

What is "forward" supposed to mean in this context? Chronologically? Leapfrogging from destination to destination? I can't quite follow his argument.

Good question, but I imagine it's the "forward" defined in your previously quoted section: "that the United States is uniquely ordained to defend, and extend, the realm of freedom around the world; that that mission requires a network of far-flung bases."

This is an area of blogging that I haven't really looked at before (though I read Bacevich's The New American Militarism a while back, and it's quite good). This is an interesting supplement to the piece linked in 115, though it's pretty depressing. That's where Bacevich blogs himself -- see the link to his blogging in the sidebar there.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
126

|| 98: Tell me about it. The various agreements and setups for sports broadcasting are crazy. I've been trying to take advantage of the NHL center ice preview, which is supposedly supposed to provide broadcasts of all out of market hockey games. I tried to watch it this week but the Detroit-Dallas game was blacked out due to some special agreement the Redwings have with the various networks (???). Feh. So finally tonight I'm watching the Blues-Stars game but I'm getting the Blues feed and not the Stars feed. Sure, if we can only get the one feed (which makes no sense - cable has a thousand channels!), they've got to choose between feeds, but you'd think the primary feed would be the home team's feed. Instead it appears to be random. So I'm watching commercials for the Illinois lottery and southern Illinois car dealers.

Oh, well, at least I like the St. Louis area.

I can get network in the US anywhere in the US. The internet lets me listen to any radio station I want. I can read any web site I want. But I can't sports broadcasts for specific teams unless I live in the area. |>

max
['Bah.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:30 PM
horizontal rule
127

122: Just think of it as rooting against the Yankees.

(I'm a little tense over here at the moment, for the record. And I miss Harry Kalas.)

123.1: Wait, are you saying that the S-A War was an example of imperialism and thus *not* an example of our sacred duty to spread freedom and democracy to all? Or are you saying the the latter is a flavor of imperialism?

given that the Russians have 24,000 nuclear warheads

This is really the kind of information I avoid knowing, thank you very much.

Unrelated gripe of the night: This kind of comment is why I keep abandoning attempts to read political bloggers. Adam Serwer on whether he's willing to stop using the term "illegal immigrant":

Reading Sen's piece made me feel a bit like that serial killer on Family Guy who stabs himself and says, "My G-d, is that what I've been doing to people?" I cringed. I don't know that I've been entirely persuaded to stop using the term, but I'm certainly going to think about it.

Those two sentences make absolutely no sense next to each other. Either you feel really terrible or you're not sure whether you're going to change your behavior. One or the other. You're not allowed to claim brownie points for being an alert-to-criticism-and-thoughtful-person without actually behaving like one.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:31 PM
horizontal rule
128

Pretend I wrote "thoughts" instead of "sentences."


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:32 PM
horizontal rule
129

You're not allowed to claim brownie points for being an alert-to-criticism-and-thoughtful-person without actually behaving like one.

But, I'm an educated, middle class white guy.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:33 PM
horizontal rule
130

I'm a little tense over here at the moment, for the record.

I know! How can Lincecum keep giving up those hits?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:35 PM
horizontal rule
131

That's really mean, Josh. What have I ever done to you?

For the records, I'm kind of happy for the Giants, making it into the postseason after almost a decade. At least they're a real team with a real following. I just don't want them to win.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:39 PM
horizontal rule
132

-s


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:40 PM
horizontal rule
133

What's a "potseason"?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:43 PM
horizontal rule
134

131: Sorry, regional affiliation got the better of me. (I should really be rooting against the Giants, given how annoying gameday crowds are, but some small part of me still wants to see them win.)

Can we at least agree that the Yankees suck?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:47 PM
horizontal rule
135

133: what isn't, boy.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:47 PM
horizontal rule
136

135: Fucking hydroponics.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:48 PM
horizontal rule
137

127.last: I don't routinely read Serwer, but I gather he's a thinking kind of guy, and may be persuaded. Speaking of which, have people read Andrew Sullivan's mea culpa on the occasion of his 10-year anniversary?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 7:56 PM
horizontal rule
138

Did he apologize for his misguided, embarrassing, and deeply racist views on IQ? For his equally wrongheaded and mendacious bloviating against universal health care? Or is he just rehashing his self-flagellation over his horrifying support for the Iraq fiasco (and his over-the-top name-calling of anti-war activists and writers). Until he's all in on the apologies, I still won't read him. I say that even though he's a smart guy and his blog apparently can be remarkable (I'm told, for example, that his coverage of the Iran protests was extraordinary).


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:10 PM
horizontal rule
139

Until he's all in on the apologies, I still won't read him.

I can't imagine I ever would.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:13 PM
horizontal rule
140

Eh, scratch that: I don't actually care.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:13 PM
horizontal rule
141

Cross post reveals the workings of the hive mind!


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:14 PM
horizontal rule
142

139: dude, I rode a century last weekend and this. Last weekend's was hard: from Santa Rosa, over the coast range, down 1 from above Jenner to Bodega Bay, and then, when I was already whipped, back over the mountains to Santa Rosa. Ouch. This week's was relatively flat: starting from around here, though the valley in this neck of the woods, and then briefly into the coast range in Napa and Sonoma counties. Easy peasy.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:17 PM
horizontal rule
143

141: Waggle, Wiggle, Waggle, Waggle, Wiggle, Waggle.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
144

142: you did the GranFondo?!? That's awesome. That looked like so much fun.

I finally fixed my stem length such that I think I might be able to ride a century without my hands and/or genitals falling off. Might happen this fall, but probably not.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:21 PM
horizontal rule
145

142: Lord I love that part of the coast. Which road did you take over to 1?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
146

144.2: I thought it was leaves that fell off in the fall.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
147

138: Put it this way: I wasn't inclined to read it either, but I was a little surprised. The thing is pretty heartfelt and extremely well written. He doesn't walk back his claim to being a conservative in the end, but again: I was a little quite surprised.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:23 PM
horizontal rule
148

Ari should check his e-mail.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:24 PM
horizontal rule
149

Why? I checked his email and there wasn't anything interesting.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:27 PM
horizontal rule
150

Maybe he has multiple accounts and you didn't check them all.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:30 PM
horizontal rule
151

I bet this thread can go to 164 comments.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
152

Doubtful.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:59 PM
horizontal rule
153

I bet I can eat 50 eggs before it does.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 8:59 PM
horizontal rule
154

So, is Fresh Meat any relation to frequent meetup lurker Fresh Salt?


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:02 PM
horizontal rule
155

154: I thought it was [edited].

But never mind, there is no meetup lurker named Fresh Salt anyway.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
156

153: Not if you hard boiled them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
157

154: So shall we go ahead and put Fresh SaltPork on the list of approved name suggestions?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
158

154: he's been known to get pickled there.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
159

154: I am reasonably sure "Fresh Salt" is a place, not a person.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
160

157: I don't approve of these double names that involve adjectives, so no.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:09 PM
horizontal rule
161

Fresh Pork would be a good name.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:11 PM
horizontal rule
162

127: 123.1: Wait, are you saying that the S-A War was an example of imperialism and thus *not* an example of our sacred duty to spread freedom and democracy to all? Or are you saying the the latter is a flavor of imperialism?

Yes.

We certainyl were not spreading democracy in the Phillipines, given that we spent four years fighting the native Filipino democrats, and even if we had been spreading democracy, it still isn't nice to try and kill people into freedom.

At least they're a real team with a real following.

I don't understand the Ranger hatred; it's like hating the Arizona Cardinals. Way to pick on the underdog. That's why I'm rooting for a Rangers-Phillies series. That'll be fucking odd. A good team versus the worst franchise in baseball sports.

max
['The Yankees always win.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:14 PM
horizontal rule
163

151, 153: I win.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:20 PM
horizontal rule
164

Fresh Pork would be a good name.

I disagree. I swear to god, the lack of imagination on the internets these days should probably just get off my lawn.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:21 PM
horizontal rule
165

Caviar?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
166

163: You have not eaten 50 eggs. Unless you were eating caviar, I guess. Still, good work.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:23 PM
horizontal rule
167

I'd eaten thousands of eggs before this thread got to 164.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:23 PM
horizontal rule
168

164: You're probably right, but of the possible combinations of those words, I think it was the best.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:24 PM
horizontal rule
169

GIMME MAH MBA


Posted by: Fresh Pork | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:25 PM
horizontal rule
170

167: Things like that are why I could never do contract law.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:26 PM
horizontal rule
171

We certainyl were not spreading democracy in the Phillipines, given that we spent four years fighting the native Filipino democrats, and even if we had been spreading democracy, it still isn't nice to try and kill people into freedom.

Indeed. I believe we are in complete agreement here; perhaps the sarcasm on my "sacred duty" line did not come through, or perhaps I should be posting this on Standpipe's blog. It's late.

I don't understand the Ranger hatred

My comment was actually a backhanded slap at the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. I will forgive you for not reading my mind and magically discerning that I was harkening back to 2008.

Congrats, Josh; your bullpen pulled off a nice one, I have to say.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:28 PM
horizontal rule
172

||In my continuing series on Germany and the Evil but not so smart Muslim Threat, here's some extracts from the Christian Democrat's new seven point plan:

1.Deutschland sei kein Zuwanderungsland. Integration bedeute "nicht nebeneinander, sondern miteinander leben auf dem gemeinsamen Fundament der Werteordnung unseres Grundgesetzes und unserer deutschen Leitkultur, die von den christlich-jüdischen Wurzeln und von Christentum, Humanismus und Aufklärung geprägt ist".

Germany is not a country for immigration. Integration means living not next to one another, but with one another on te bases of the fundamental hierarchy of values of our contititution and our German hegemonic culture which is marked by its Judeo-Christian roots and shaped by Christianity, Humanism, and the Enlightenment. [and yes, the German Jewish community's official spokespeople have been having themselves a snarky outraged time noting the hitherto unmentioned 'Judeo' roots being used as part of a rhetoric of exclusion of an ethno/religious/racial other]

6. Those who refuse to integrate are to be subject to legal sanctions.


On the plus side, perhaps we could make acceptance of secular humanism and Enlightenment values a requirement for rights here in the US. Goodbye Christian right. (I'm kidding) >|


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:38 PM
horizontal rule
173

145: King's Ridge Road. More info here.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:43 PM
horizontal rule
174

Further to 172, comments from Angela Merkel:

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.
In a speech in Potsdam, she said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work.
Mrs Merkel's comments come amid recent outpourings of strong anti-immigrant feeling from mainstream politicians. A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners".
[...] Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German. "Anyone who does not immediately speak German", she said, "is not welcome".
Her comments come a week after she held talks with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in which the two leaders pledged to do more to improve the often poor integration record of Germany's estimated 2.5 million-strong Turkish community.

I think I liked her better in last week's sex thread.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:43 PM
horizontal rule
175

I think I liked her better in last week's sex thread.

I've never said this before, but new mouseover text?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
176

The word Leitkultur is so awful. Makes me cringe just to hear it.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 9:53 PM
horizontal rule
177

Clearly you're just another radical Islamist seeking the domination of Islam over the entire world, just like Bundesprasident Wulff, or so FAZ tells me.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:05 PM
horizontal rule
178

The job application site has crashed! I guess it wants me to wait until morning before submitting things. It's not like I've had that much to drink.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:18 PM
horizontal rule
179

So, essear, you're looking for a job where you could drink yourself into oblivion with minimal repercussions, yet you have to be extra sober to apply? Unfair!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:21 PM
horizontal rule
180

I don't know what job I'm looking for. This is a source of much stress. But I can't complain about it because it's roughly the equivalent of alameida's complaint about orgasms; everyone I try to talk to about it starts to hate me.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:25 PM
horizontal rule
181

But I can't complain about it because it's roughly the equivalent of alameida's complaint about orgasms; everyone I try to talk to about it starts to hate me.

This seems like the thread to do it in.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:30 PM
horizontal rule
182

I was just teasing! I'd love it if you found a multiorgasm-equivalent job! But yes, it's difficult to talk about in a situation where others are more likely to talk about their own lack of what you have than about what you have. I hope you work it out in a positive way for you, though.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:32 PM
horizontal rule
183

I was just teasing! I'd love it if you found a multiorgasm-equivalent job! But yes, it's difficult to talk about in a situation where others are more likely to talk about their own lack of what you have than about what you have. I hope you work it out in a positive way for you, though.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:33 PM
horizontal rule
184

I may have discovered the job I want, but it will be almost impossible to get.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:34 PM
horizontal rule
185

Sorry about the double post.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:34 PM
horizontal rule
186

Witt, what is wrong with you? Stop being so accomodating. Giants delenda est. I am prepared to be a Phillies fan this week.

I don't really see why one would hate the Texas Rangers, at least now that the GWB connection has been severed. In my Dodgers-centric world, from most to least evil the order goes Giants>Yankees>Phillies>Rangers. Since the Yankees are clearly the better postseason team, and thus have the best chance of beating the Giants (should Philly, which is clearly better than SF, fail to get the job done), I can't get too worked up about the Yankees winning, although it's always a little soul-crushing to watch.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:36 PM
horizontal rule
187

When I was picking Rory up the other night, she had a plastic CDU ruler for doing her homework. Perhaps I can point her to the quotes above to explain my expression ofstern disapproval.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:37 PM
horizontal rule
188

186: what's probably confusing you, Halford, is that you tend to be on the side of evil.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:41 PM
horizontal rule
189

Part of the problem is trying to figure out whether to even apply for jobs if there's a chance that I would turn them down. Some of them have weird baggage attached that I'm not sure I want to deal with. But some people tell me that if I get offered a faculty job and turn it down for another postdoc, I will make enemies for life and develop a reputation that will make it harder to get a faculty job in the future. And other people tell me that those people are trying to scare me unnecessarily. It's not clear where the truth is.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:42 PM
horizontal rule
190

Sorry about the double post.

You are among friends here, Thorn. We don't begrudge you the pleasure of multiple comments.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:43 PM
horizontal rule
191

Ah, I love you, Di!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:43 PM
horizontal rule
192

Didn't someone have like a quintuple-comment once? We were all pretty envious, IIRC.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:44 PM
horizontal rule
193

184 I may have discovered the job I want, but it will be almost impossible to get.

Good luck with it! (You've taken down waste? I would have thought some of your brilliant posts there would help you get a job. In a just world, at least...)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:48 PM
horizontal rule
194

I think I've basically figured out what sort of job I'd ideally like to get. No idea how easy it would be to actually get, but since I'm in a normal career field I have a few months until I have to start applying for jobs.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:51 PM
horizontal rule
195

Some suggestion was made recently about a possibile opportunity that would lead to my dream job. Probably just a big tease, though.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:57 PM
horizontal rule
196

189: ahhh. That seems like a pain in the ass. So you only have to apply to things that you would be happy to accept, but if you do that and you don't get any of them, you're fucked?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 10:57 PM
horizontal rule
197

196: Yeah, it kind of sounds that way. I mean, I can always apply for more postdocs, and would be perfectly happy to take another one. But that just kicks the problem down the road a bit. I'm mostly inclined to trust the person who told me to just apply for everything and not worry too much, but he was already tenured at a first-rate school at about the age I am now, so I don't think he has firsthand experience with these things.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-10 11:17 PM
horizontal rule
198

(You've taken down waste? I would have thought some of your brilliant posts there would help you get a job. In a just world, at least...)

One doesn't want to risk it. It's just password-protected by a scheme you can probably figure out if you care to: it's one step up from the absolute worst password possible.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 2:44 AM
horizontal rule
199

186: Some Rangers hate still in order.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 6:11 AM
horizontal rule
200

Hey you kids get off my touchscreen.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 6:28 AM
horizontal rule
201

it's one step up from the absolute worst password possible.

"Spaceballs" reference?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 6:42 AM
horizontal rule
202

Germany is not an immigration country. But it does want to know why all these homosexuals Turks keep sucking its cock turning up everywhere...


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 8:54 AM
horizontal rule
203

...and "Deutschlander" is about as valid a translation of "German" as "Americanian" would be of "citizen of the United States of America".


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
204

A couple of the jobs I'm applying for require a teaching statement. I've never taught anything. I downloaded some people's teaching statements to see what kind of things they say, and they all make me want to punch them.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 10:17 AM
horizontal rule
205

That could be your teaching statement.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 10:27 AM
horizontal rule
206

Though I'd drop the first sentence.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 10:28 AM
horizontal rule
207

In my Dodgers-centric world, from most to least evil the order goes Giants>Yankees>Phillies>Rangers.

What ogged said. Go Giants (sorry, Witt).


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 10:28 AM
horizontal rule
208

The statement of "teaching philosophy" is indeed a particularly blighted genre.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 10:59 AM
horizontal rule
209

Yes, everyone's is sickening. Ten out of ten job applicants believe that their role is not to show the student the way, but to provide the materials so that the student can find their own way. Maybe that helps.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 11:06 AM
horizontal rule
210

209: That seems particularly bone-headed. Strange. Maybe it's a matter of emphasis? It's certainly true that your selection of materials (at least in the humanities) is crucial to students being able to find their way, so I suppose an applicant could say that and come out sounding as though s/he means that the material itself is doing the work. Or something.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
211

Little of my actual teaching thinking is particularly a coherent "philosophy" of any kind. There is a bundle of schemes and methods and circumstances that seem to work for me, and that's about it.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
212

You have my sympathies, essear. I tried to help my partner write a particularly good one for a job she really wanted and I was quite ready to punch myself by the end of the procrss.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 11:17 AM
horizontal rule
213

"I have found that the greatest teachers tell the students nothing, and allow them to discover what they need to know all on their own. At, the close of our time together, do my students know more about the course subject? I don't know. Do they know something even more important, about life, about truth? I don't know that either, but I hope so."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 11:18 AM
horizontal rule
214

Teaching statements are probably similar to artist's statements in that regard: utter hogwash, formulaic and tortured. (I've helped my housemate write his artist's statement a few times, and there is a rhythm to it, but it's definitely an exercise in mastering the genre more than anything else.)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
215

"I have found that the greatest teachers spend absolutely no time with the students, and allow them to discover everything all on their own. At, the close of our time apart, do my students know more about the course subject? I don't know. Do they know something even more important, about life, about truth? I don't know that either, but I hope so."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 11:55 AM
horizontal rule
216

"I have found that dating your students is a bad idea and per the court order, I'm not at liberty to go into more detail."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 12:14 PM
horizontal rule
217

And no more topless labs.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 12:17 PM
horizontal rule
218

My favorite of the teaching statements I found through Google ended with a joke and then a line that read "HAHAHAHAHAHAHA". I imagine the guy just completely cracked at the end of writing so much bullshit.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 12:18 PM
horizontal rule
219

And no more topless labs.

Labs was topless? I've seen the apo nipple shot, but I didn't know there was a topless Labs somewhere around here.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 12:25 PM
horizontal rule
220

218: My cow-orker's daughter (aged 21) phoned the shop recently to ask her dad's advice about drafting her resume: she wanted to include a line about her experience working on an organic farm this summer that read, "Aside from these responsibilities, I enjoyed eating melons at every opportunity."

That's funny, right, dad? Isn't that funny? Is it okay to include that line?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 12:38 PM
horizontal rule
221

"I learned how to properly care for large, firm melons."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 12:56 PM
horizontal rule
222

If you see people artisanally hand-crafting crack, you will see it involves horrible chemicals and disgusting smoke that means if you open your apartment window facing the airshaft at the bottom of which your super is making crack it will be noxious. ime. but maybe that dude was doing it rong.

I think this means you're getting old old school. Sounds like you're talking about the freebase manufacturing of yore. My understanding is that most crack manufacturing is along the lines of this.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/drugs-alcohol/crack2.htm


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 1:09 PM
horizontal rule
223

Regarding a teaching statement, how about saying you will prepare for lectures, show up on time and not lose your students work. Or would that come across as too naive and idealistic?


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 2:25 PM
horizontal rule
224

OT: Does hummus count as a vegetable for purposes of how many servings of vegetables one is supposed to eat in a day? If fries count, I think it should.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 2:31 PM
horizontal rule
225

I may have discovered the job I want, but it will be almost impossible to get.

Don't give up hope, neB, we will find a way to get you on the Supreme Court.

For the good of the Nation!


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 2:50 PM
horizontal rule
226

Regarding a teaching statement, how about saying you will prepare for lectures, show up on time and not lose your students work.

"I will do the bare minimum that can reasonably be asked of me?" Possibly true, but definitely not what I should say.

Actually I went into some sort of trance and produced two pages that almost had me convinced I care about teaching. Once I start writing, these things are easy to do.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 3:05 PM
horizontal rule
227

224: If beans and lentils count as vegetables, then hummus counts. Hummus is more obviously a terrorist-sympathetic food, though, like falafel and baba ghanoush.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 3:08 PM
horizontal rule
228

227: I had a similar question about baked beans.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 3:18 PM
horizontal rule
229

228: And I have a similar question about mushrooms.

For some reason, I always lump the legumes with the grains, not the vegetables.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 3:38 PM
horizontal rule
230

226

"I will do the bare minimum that can reasonably be asked of me?" Possibly true, but definitely not what I should say.

That would put you ahead of a lot of professors.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 4:05 PM
horizontal rule
231

That would put you ahead of a lot of professors.

That may be true, but one doesn't want to say it.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 4:47 PM
horizontal rule
232

Shhh. That's the secret to my above average teaching ratings. But it is hard to put in essay format.


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 5:27 PM
horizontal rule
233

230: I myself can recall only one or two professors I'd accuse of that. Your experience was different? Or are you engaging in hyperbole?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 5:33 PM
horizontal rule
234

233

I myself can recall only one or two professors I'd accuse of that. Your experience was different? Or are you engaging in hyperbole?

It's been a while and perhaps I am the kind of person who remembers the bad professors more than the good ones but as I recall showing up late and/or unprepared were fairly common. The losing your work bit didn't happen to me but someone I knew who flunked a course because the professor lost half the final exams and just gave zeros to the missing ones. Apparently the students had no recourse.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:04 PM
horizontal rule
235

Someone I knew was in a class with a professor who was discovered to be hiding his excrement in empty toilet paper tubes and leaving them for students to find, but I wouldn't say that's what every professor thinks is a good way of doing their job.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:07 PM
horizontal rule
236

"What is teaching but a shared becoming? And what is becoming but the process of being? And what is being but nothingness and wholeness all in one? And what is nothingness but absence, which is to say zero. For this reason, I give all of my students zeros."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:11 PM
horizontal rule
237

"The first step to truly memorable, thought-provoking teaching is a terrifyingly angry stare. I've treated my eyebrows with rogaine for many years, and in order to give my eyes the requisite bloodshot cast I smoke truly enormous amounts of pot. As I bore unblinkingly into my students' souls, they learn the true meaning of acceleration along a frictionless incline."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:13 PM
horizontal rule
238

235: In the classroom or around campus?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:15 PM
horizontal rule
239

238: in his ass, you disgusting pervert!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:16 PM
horizontal rule
240

238: In the bathroom outside his classroom.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:17 PM
horizontal rule
241

235: I had professors like that - oh, wait, you weren't speaking metaphorically?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:18 PM
horizontal rule
242

"My teaching philosophy can be summed up in one simple phrase: 'Those who can, do. Those who can't... sing!'"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
243

240: How did they bust him? Was there a campus manhunt for the poop-roll kid?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:23 PM
horizontal rule
244

Feel free to ignore this if you are trying to forget out it or if, as one would hope, a campus poop mystery is rare enough to be identifying information.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:25 PM
horizontal rule
245

"forget out it" s/b "forget it"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:26 PM
horizontal rule
246

243: ballistic fingerprinting.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:26 PM
horizontal rule
247

IIRC some enterprising students staked out the bathroom and caught him in the act.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:26 PM
horizontal rule
248

someone I knew who flunked a course because the professor lost half the final exams and just gave zeros to the missing ones.

Someone I knew had a professor who just threw all the blue books down a stairwell and assigned grades in the order they landed! And someone else I knew knew someone who received all A's one semester because his roommate killed himself!


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:43 PM
horizontal rule
249

My famous ninth grade science teacher regularly lost my assignments, and those of a few others in the class. It was pretty clearly intentional; he didn't like us very much, and thought he could take us down a peg by engineering worse grades for us than we deserved.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:46 PM
horizontal rule
250

234+ sounding a bit like the Mad Crapper from NatLamp's High School Yearbook Parody.

#spoiler alert--it was the principal ...IIRC.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:46 PM
horizontal rule
251

||Ick, I seem to be coming down with the flu or at least flu like symptoms.>|

JBS - no recourse? That seems dubious. If only one student made that claim I could see the admin siding with the prof, but if half of them say the prof has decided to flunk them on a whim, I'm pretty sure the deans would step in. And I'm with parsi, most profs I had did their teaching jobs responsibly, a few did the absolute bare minimum, and a few really went out of their way to help the students.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 7:57 PM
horizontal rule
252

250: National Lampoon only pretended to be parody. It was straight news. They shot the dog.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 8:07 PM
horizontal rule
253

251

JBS - no recourse? That seems dubious ...

That's what I was told years after the incident in question. Half may be an exaggeration on my part, perhaps it was just some of the final exams.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 8:48 PM
horizontal rule
254

235: hiding his excrement in empty toilet paper tubes

That's a euphemism, right?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 8:50 PM
horizontal rule
255

OH YEAH WITT OSWALT JIMMY ROLLINS WOO


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-10 9:09 PM
horizontal rule
256

essear: and, like Father William, the strength you gained contesting this has lasted the rest of your life?


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 10-18-10 2:17 AM
horizontal rule