Re: Tears of a Crown

1

It's a trap. We start making fun of him for being a weepy big girls blouse (or whatever the colorful UK term of abuse is), and then we can have another delightful year of talking about how irrationally mean liberals are, just like we did with Palin.

Peculiar, certainly, but if he wants to snivel on camera, it's a free country.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:46 AM
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Can't stop me from making fun of him. Look, somebody put the orange on a juicer!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:52 AM
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Also, I totally reject the paranoia and playing-by-their-rules implicit in one. If you can't mock Palin, who on earth can you mock?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:53 AM
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Actually weeping like little nancy girls seems to be a theme with republicans. Doesn't Glenn Beck sob a lot? Is this something they learn at those backwoods retreats with the drums and the Jesus? It would be nice if it stayed there, but then, it would be nice if they stayed there, too.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:54 AM
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I sob tears of invective, but my cheeks are... dry!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:54 AM
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No but seriously you know what's truly infuriating about it? Boner can weep like a fucking idiot all over national TV and it proves... I don't know, something. I haven't watched the context, just the waterworks. But any Democrat shows visible emotion for any reason and oh-ho-ho-ho-ho those squishy, emotional, unserious liberals. Never mind that Glenn Beck (just for instance) probably got bullied by his own training potty until he was, what, thirteen years old. When he cries it's because it just hurts... his... manly... core... so... bad... what they're doing... to... America... buy... Cash4Gold.

Ugh.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:02 AM
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It sounds like you have a lot of emotion bound up in this subject, Tweety. Would you like to let it out?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:08 AM
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8

Oliver North, Jimmy Swaggart. I feel like this is something AWB could explain.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:10 AM
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Has no one asked him about this in an interview? "Congressman, you seem to have difficulty not bursting into tears. Is this some sort of medical issue? Do you suffer from allergies? Are you clinically depressed? Have you ever found this a problem during, say, business deals? Do you think that the outcome of the next G-8 summit would be more favourable to us if President Obama kept breaking down and sobbing during the negotiations?"


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:12 AM
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I'm waiting for 6 more of Sifu's comments before I weight in.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:12 AM
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As Nora Ephron wrote:

"Beware of men who cry. It's true that men who cry are sensitive to and in touch with feelings, but the only feelings they tend to be sensitive to and in touch with are their own."


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:13 AM
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Fuck that hypocritical dickface, is what I'm saying. Maybe if somebody pissed on him you couldn't see the tears.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:13 AM
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SO ITS OK WHEN BOHNER DOES IT???? FUCK THAT GUY.


Posted by: OPINIONATED EDMUND MUSKIE | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:15 AM
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6: They've certainly embraced the "history's greatest victims" role. It is to puke.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:15 AM
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8: Not necessarily, except to say that there are different kinds of tears. There are the tears of someone who is in touch with what they are feeling, and there are tears of someone clearly driven insane by attempts at repression. Both cry equally as often, but there's a certain psychotic look to the latter that Republicans seem to get hard about. The former makes them react the same way repressed people always do around someone who doesn't hate themselves enough. Drives 'em nuts.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:23 AM
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I'll say it: John Boehner is a big, orange sissy.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:25 AM
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This post would be better if you adjusted the title by deleting the letters "r-o-w-n" and inserting "u-n-t". ithankyew.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:34 AM
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It might be similar to the things that turn people on, actually. If you consider sexual repression to be normal and good, then you only get turned on watching someone wrestle with their self-loathing. If you think it's normal for people to be open and accepting about bodies and sexuality, then people who behave non-psychotically about sex turn you on.

At least, I feel this way about crying/sex because I am on neither side, having grown up in the psychotically repressed community and now finding myself among the lifelong-bourgeois-liberal community. They both turn me off, frankly.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:39 AM
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then you only get turned on watching someone wrestle with their self-loathing

I saw that once, except at the last minute they replaced self-loathing with pudding.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:41 AM
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If you think it's normal for people to be open and accepting about bodies and sexuality, you can turn around and go right back to Woodstock, hippie. We don't like your kind here.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:43 AM
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Maybe he keeps randomly thinking of It's a Wonderful Life.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:21 AM
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They both turn me off, frankly.

This leaves you in a somewhat awkward position, by the sound of it. Who's left?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:24 AM
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19: Surprizingly, the pudding is easier to clean up afterwards.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:28 AM
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21: Except he's crying for poor Mr. Potter.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:32 AM
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25

He is an orphan who must face the most powerful dark wizard of the modern era.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:34 AM
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26

25 to 22.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:34 AM
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27

"Are you gonna cry about it?" should be the standard liberal retort on all the talking head shows going forward. Not only will it drive them insane, but taunting is, sadly, pretty effective as a way to make an opponent seem ridiculous.

Also, I'm fairly confident it would turn me on.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:38 AM
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He just loves horses so much.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:39 AM
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Maybe they could use "Sometimes When We Touch" when Boehner enters the chamber, like how the president gets "Hail to the Chief." I'd guess that Dan Hill could use the royalties.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:47 AM
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"Are you gonna cry about it?" should be the standard liberal retort on all the talking head shows going forward.

God, yes. I move that donaquixote be sent to DNC headquarters to slap some sense into the strategy people there.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:51 AM
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I'm aware that I'm pretty much the last person under eleventy who still watches 60 Minutes, but yesterday's episode also featured a bit on Dallas Cowboys owner/GM, Jerry Jones. So I guess the show's theme was rich white old guys who have it rough.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:55 AM
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27: I think it's kind of OK to taunt someone about that sort of thing. Adults should have enough self-control not to burst into tears when they're upset, or, for that matter, start punching people when they're angry.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:56 AM
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Also, I'm fairly confident it would turn me on.

If donaquixote only gets turned on by liberals on talk shows being feisty and aggressive and standing up for themselves, then the last 20 years or so must have been a real desert, interspersed at widely separated intervals by outbreaks of Jesse Jackson.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:58 AM
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outbreaks of Jesse Jackson

Also known as the double-rainbow-push coalition?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:02 AM
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6: This drives me crazy too. I've only seen one of the videos of Bohner crying but he was talking about how hard his family worked. There was nothing specific enough to cause him to get upset. It wasn't a "My father worked 15 hours a day performing back breaking labor and died of a heart attack at 60 all to feed is 10 children" kind of moment. And it looked obviously fake. But there's no real criticism of him.

But when Hillary Clinton was running for president and her voice cracked a little and her eyes welled up, people went on and on about how she was weak, how it was designed to elicit sympathy, how it was evidence that she's the most evil person alive, etc. I can't believe she held it together so well. I would have bawled.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:12 AM
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If donaquixote only gets turned on by liberals on talk shows being feisty and aggressive and standing up for themselves, then the last 20 years or so must have been a real desert, interspersed at widely separated intervals by outbreaks of Jesse Jackson.

and Michael Moore, to provide you with a mental image that may linger awhile.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:17 AM
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37

This is a "Only Nixon can go to China" thing, right? Liberal's tears show weakness because everyone suspects that they signify actual emotion.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:17 AM
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38

And it looked obviously fake.

Looks like the crying you see in some churches. Hmm.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:18 AM
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35: There's an odd turn in the 60 Minutes clip where it says something along the lines of "Boehner grew up in a family of hard-scrabble Kennedy Democrats, but later in life, he made millions in the plastics industry and realized that taxes are kinda-sorta inconvenient for rich people."


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:20 AM
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40

Actually, you know what would crack me up? Exaggerated solicitude from anyone within reach of Bohner. Handing him hankies, offering glasses of water, asking if he needs to end the event and come back later... all played completely deadpan. At first. Then, after the pattern had been established, we could get every Democrat in the House pulling out a hankie for him simultaneously when he teared up.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:20 AM
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41

People should show up to his speeches dressed as if for a Gallagher show.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:22 AM
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42

"Boehner grew up in a family of hard-scrabble Kennedy Democrats, but later in life, he made millions in the plastics industry and realized that taxes are kinda-sorta inconvenient for rich people."

This is the only part of the show I overheard. It was playing at the local "No More Junk Food--Eat Healthy--Halal Is The Answer" where I was picking up dinner.

Needless to say, I found it somewhat incongruous.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:26 AM
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40: definitely, yes. That would work better than the other option, which is to play the clip of Eric Cartman saying "Yes! Yesss! Oh, let me taste your tears! Mmm, your tears are so yummy and sweet! Oh, the tears of unfathomable sadness!"

How often does he do this? Is it a regular thing in speeches or just on the occasional talk show?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:27 AM
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The double standard is completely understandable in this case.

If you're the kind of person that enjoys killing small, harmless animals, that thinks nothing of sending young people off to die for oil in a distant land, that has no hesitation in taking money away from healthcare for poor children to ensure that a millionaire can afford another yatch, then you are certainly a real man, and crying now and then just shows that you are real man with real emotions.

But, if you are kind of person that worries about the fate of endangered species, that is hesitant to get our soldiers in war, that worries about poor children getting decent nutrition and healthcare, then an occassional tear is the final proof that you are a total wuss.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:28 AM
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42: It wouldn't be very hard to make Halal junk food, would it?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:29 AM
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43: God, I love that episode.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:30 AM
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It wouldn't be very hard to make Halal junk food, would it?

No. And the food at "No More Junk Food--Eat Healthy--Halal Is The Answer" is really not all that healthy. They have good juice, though.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:32 AM
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If you're the kind of person that enjoys killing small, harmless animals, that thinks nothing of sending young people off to die for oil in a distant land, that has no hesitation in taking money away from healthcare for poor children to ensure that a millionaire can afford another yatch, then you are certainly a real man, and crying now and then just shows that you are real man with real emotions.

What if you only meet the first criteria? Hypothetically, of course.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:32 AM
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49

In my head, I italicized 48.1.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:33 AM
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50

I hear the president supports government-run Halalthcare.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:34 AM
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48: A little ritualistic humiliation, Moby, and all is forgiven. I think on Unfogged that means posting some typos and then correcting them in the next comment.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:35 AM
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52

So you're on the right track.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:35 AM
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53

Too bad there aren't any small animals around.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:39 AM
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It wouldn't be very hard to make Halal junk food, would it?

Easy as pie mate


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:39 AM
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54: That's good. I'd hate to have to pay the jizya and eat right.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:42 AM
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Oh my, I kind of love 40. Maybe we can turn 27 into the last, final stage of 40. Perhaps the DNC could even make some money with product placement. Only the softest tissues for Boehner's delicate nose.



Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:50 AM
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57

"A federal judge in Virginia ruled Monday that the individual mandate contained in the health care law passed by Congress and signed by President Barack Obama this year is unconstitutional."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:50 AM
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58

I'm pretty sure 57 just gave me a minor stroke. Now I'm going to rewatch the Christmas episode of Community while getting back to work.

CHRIST.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:52 AM
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But the tissues have to be orange.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:52 AM
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It wouldn't be very hard to make Halal junk food, would it?

It's called chicken and rice. Available on every block of New York City for $5 or less.


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:01 AM
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I'm not sure how 'halal' the halal carts are. I once saw one which had pork on the menu.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:06 AM
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The one next to me is pretty serious. But then I live next to a mosque.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:07 AM
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58: Oddly, while Christ likes universal healthcare, I understand that He is tepid* on (i) Claymation and (ii) Community's preciousness.

* Amusing only to me, I know.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:08 AM
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Oops. That was me. Statcounter hang thing.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:09 AM
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61: I once tried to make kosher pork by doing some surgery on a pig's feet. All I got was a citation for animal cruelty.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:10 AM
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Surely there's some regulation there, however lax?

Side note: the cart on 53rd and Lex has a Wikipedia page? Really? That cart is, like, 10% better than an average cart and the line is 1000% longer. I don't get it.


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:10 AM
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67

I've just started reading the opinion, but there is, in my uninformed view, a fundamental misunderstanding right off the bat -- and it's something that came from the government. Much has been made, early on, of the assumption that everyone is going to need health care. And so, it's fine to include the people who are (a) going to need health care but (b) don't want to buy insurance. Because the cost of their care ought to be in the system.

Isn't there a much shorter road, though. People who don't need health care bring down premiums for everyone who does. Including them affects interstate commerce in a big way.

Why doesn't this work?

(I suppose it's in the opinion later . . .)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:10 AM
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Doesn't Glenn Beck sob a lot? Is this something they learn at those backwoods retreats with the drums and the Jesus?

Beck's style is very familiar to Mormons. The tearful story telling is a staple of the fast and testimony meeting which is usually the first Sunday of each month.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_and_testimony_meeting


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:33 AM
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I could take you to half a dozen halal junk food places within a hundred yards of each other if you were over here. Standard fare.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:37 AM
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66: Food on Wheels is shaping up to be this decade's cupcake.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:38 AM
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Mmmmm, halal junk food. I wish the $1 sambusa belt extended further south and west here, so that I could grab some right now.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:46 AM
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13 gets it right, as does Flippanter/Ephron in 12. The current state of the pussification of the American male seems to permit acting like a complete fucking baby, as long as you're being a selfish and grandiose twit about it rather than actually expressing empathy or something emotionally real.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:51 AM
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Empathy is obviously right out, but you can over other emotions. Lust, hunger, anger are all fine.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:52 AM
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71: Shouldn't you be fixing the Metrodome?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:53 AM
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s/b "you can have other emotions"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 10:53 AM
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76

Given this and this, I feel that it is important that this thread contain a reference to When Harry Met Sally. I leave the exercise of putting it in proper context in the thread to someone else.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 11:00 AM
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76.2: "er, Congressman, I don't think any of us in the studio expected your support for this proposal to be quite so... enthusiastic."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 11:11 AM
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I'm convinced my mom could watch When Harry Met Sally on repeat with minimal interruption for the rest of eternity.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 11:35 AM
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79

You know what? He is known to cry. He cries sometimes when we're having a debate on bills. If I cry, it's about the personal loss of a friend or something like that. But when it comes to politics -- no, I don't cry. I would never think of crying about any loss of an office, because that's always a possibility, and if you're professional, then you deal with it professionally.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 11:41 AM
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holy moley

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/health/policy/14health.html?_r=1&hp


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 11:52 AM
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81

IANAL, but what the fuck happened to Wickard?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 11:57 AM
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82

80, meet 57.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:01 PM
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83

what the fuck happened to Wickard?

We don't know what you're on about. *burp*


Posted by: Hungry Chickens | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:03 PM
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84

Speaking of weird, has this been linked:

http://pregnantchicken.squarespace.com/pregnant-chicken-blog/2010/12/10/awkward-pregnancy-photos.html


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:10 PM
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I've come crawling back out of my anxious rage coma in reaction to the news in 57 to say:

On top of everything else, now the VA AG is going to be a fucking star. Is it too much to hope that he is not, in fact, an incredible douchebag? Because if I were an incredible local douchebag, and I were hoping to become more of a national douchebag, filing my own suit against the federal government rather than joining the rest of the red state AGs would be a reasonable way to realize that hope.

Fingers crossed that he is responsible for the thing linked in 84, assuming that that is an actual pregnant chicken.

I'm saying I hope he is a chicken-fucker. I mean. I know I feel in my heart that he is a chicken-fucker. I would just like it to be true. (Santa? Right here. This is called a hint.)


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:20 PM
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Or not, you know, against the federal government. I don't actually know how that works.

However, I am increasingly sure that he is a chicken-fucker.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:21 PM
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Re: 57

Seriously, fuck health insurance mandates. The Democrats could have made the very easy and popular argument that "insurance companies are out to fuck you and can't be trusted to run health care". We have the Medicare and VA models that could be extended to provide basic coverage to everyone. But instead we get a law requiring people to pay money to the godamn insurance companies. Has anyone seen the insurance rates for a basic 4 person family plan? And our big plan to sell UHC is to force people to pay loads of money to these fuckers?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:24 PM
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88

Oh, he's a grade-A douchebag alright.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:25 PM
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On top of everything else, now the VA AG is going to be a fucking star. Is it too much to hope that he is not, in fact, an incredible douchebag?

Wait, you're hoping Cuccinelli isn't a douchebag? Yeah, that's too much to hope. He's very open about his douchebag status.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:26 PM
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87: I said that until I was blue in the face, but the usual response here was "How can you side with the Republicans?"


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:28 PM
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90: Yeah, I remember you and I being on the same side here. It boggles my mind that insurance companies are given a "seat at the table".


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:33 PM
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90, 91: Well, the question is whether what we got was better than nothing. Maybe not. Maybe we'll wind up with nothing, anyway.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:36 PM
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We have the Medicare and VA models that could be extended to provide basic coverage to everyone

Extending the VA model to everyone is what other countries call "The National Health Service", by the way. It would have been a great idea - and saved hundreds of billions of dollars every year* - but I don't think it would have worked politically.

*the NHS costs less than half, per head, what the US spends on healthcare every year as a nation. It costs less, per head, than the US government alone spends on healthcare every year. In other words, bringing in the NHS for the US could be tax-neutral, it would just mean that everyone who had their own health insurance would no longer need it, and everyone in the country would get decent health care for free.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:36 PM
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Cuccinelli's also in the scientist-intimidating business. And told universities that they can't have a policy of not discriminating against homosexuals. He's a real class act.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:37 PM
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90: That may be a bit of an overstatement regarding the usual response; then again, I had to bow out of a number of healthcare reform discussions here, finding the issue a bit too infuriating for words.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:41 PM
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I doubt there were forty votes in the senate for a Medicare for all system, and no more than twenty at absolute best for a VA for all, aka an NHS style health care system. The absolute best possible result in the real world would have been a weak token public option that could perhaps have served as the seed for a real single payer system after the Repubs win the Senate, abolish the filibuster, and the Dems finally get a massive majority again. If you simply left out the mandate but left in community rating and a ban on the exclusion of pre-existing conditions then health insurance prices would skyrocket.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:42 PM
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I was just about to post 57. I saw it in my health news inbox.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:45 PM
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It costs less, per head, than the US government alone spends on healthcare every year. In other words, bringing in the NHS for the US could be tax-neutral, it would just mean that everyone who had their own health insurance would no longer need it, and everyone in the country would get decent health care for free.

To get those cost savings you'd need to get medieval on doctor incomes and reduce nurse ones. That's a huge, and very disruptive change that would need to be carried out over a considerable period of time.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:46 PM
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My hope with the whole healthcare idiotic deal with the devil thing was that it would function like a foot in the door -- get people used to the idea that everyone should have health insurance, and, like entitlements do, it will inevitably progress to some sort of NHS like deal. But it always felt a little bit like when I buy lottery tickets, check the cash option of the current jackpot, and then waste twenty minutes looking at real estate porn.

When I think about the fact that I can't remember ever seeing a single politician make the relatively simple argument that perhaps the suffering of human beings should not be treated as a fucking profit center, my left eye twitches.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:46 PM
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84: This is fantastic! I never would have considered including a gun in a pregnancy photo.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:46 PM
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90: You're not going to cry, are you? Because if you do, you'll be siding with Republicans. Kidding aside, I don't recall people saying anything of the sort to you. I remember people asking you, again and again, where your votes for single payer (or for some whatever robust* public option type thing you had in mind) were going to come from. Or at least that's what I remember asking you. And I'm Canadian! Health care for all, we say!

* A word that, in this context at least, should be retired to a farm.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:49 PM
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some


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:50 PM
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99.1: That foot in the door only works with a mandate.

Without the mandate, there is no way to get the healthy to seek coverage and if the healthy don't buy insurance, rates will shoot up fast enough that more people will drop insurance. You can cap rates for health insurance, but either the insurance companies find a loophole or they go broke in a few years. You can create a public option, but either that has to be so highly subsidized that it amounts to nationalization (see votes and not having them) that is it better than employer provided coverage for much of the middle class or the public sector coverage will turn into Medicaid II (i.e. nothing will have changed except a new set of bureaucrats).

The Republican stance against the mandate was because they want HCR to blow-up and it will without a mandate.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:52 PM
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I remember people asking you, again and again, where your votes for single payer (or for some whatever robust* public option type thing you had in mind) were going to come from.

Apo isn't in charge of the house or senate republicans, so I don't see why his speculation or arguments about what the actual best policy course would be need to be beholden to their fickleness. After all, we're already pushing the limits of credulity by assuming they give a shit anyway.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:53 PM
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Not to inflame past arguments I may have missed, and admitting my relative ignorance on the topic as a whole, I still have to ask: did any of those proposals include subsidizing the cost of medical training? It's fair to point out that no one in their right mind would want to go half a million dollars into debt to make 50k a year for the rest of their lives (even now, residency is a serious drain on most doctors, since they get paid like 50k and still have a gajillion dollars in debt).

All of this drives me a little insane, because it seems pretty clear to me that healthcare is a public utility.

Oh wait. That is perhaps what all of the fuss is about.

(Incidentally: no one goes into medicine to get rich. Many doctors do pretty well, and some get wealthy, but by and large, doctors don't get *really* rich. It is, however, a fairly secure income, and a relatively high social status. It seems like that basic lifestyle could be preserved. Then again, I am pretty ignorant of the numbers involved, so...)


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:54 PM
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The Republican stance against the mandate

In fairness, the GOP has a long history of opposing man dates.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:55 PM
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ever seeing a single politician make the relatively simple argument

Bernie Sanders wants you to read his archives. IYKWIM.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:56 PM
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105 seems particularly irrelevant in consideration of this fact:

Apo isn't in charge of the house or senate republicans

Related: how do we fix this?


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:57 PM
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108: If only "Quantum Leap" were a how-to show.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:58 PM
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104: Because, neb, we were having arguments about real legislation that was being debated in the real U.S. Congress. The argument went, you may recall, something like this: given the realities of the make up of the Senate, that you or I or Apo want a public option amounts to very nearly the same thing as the three of us wanting a pony for Christmas.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 12:59 PM
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the GOP has a long history of opposing man dates

Only as a public option, though. They're fine with whatever takes place in the privacy of a bathroom stall. Invisible hands or something.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:00 PM
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Adding to 110: And that's a very different point than, "You're siding with the Republicans."


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:00 PM
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It is, however, ...a relatively high social status.

That's an understatement. Being a doctor is about as unambiguously high status as you can get. The authority, the resounding endorsement of your intelligence, these things are big motivators to go into medicine.

Also, the money may not be Scrooge McDuck rich, but it is still more than most Americans can reasonably hope for.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:03 PM
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given the realities of the make up of the Senate campaign finance

Fixed that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:03 PM
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I meant "democrats" in 104, actually.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:03 PM
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Because, neb, we were having arguments about real legislation that was being debated in the real U.S. Congress.

Our first mistake.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:05 PM
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116: comity.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:07 PM
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Doctors have authority and intelligence? How does one find these people? The ones I see just say whatever gets them out of the room and on to their next patient as fast as possible.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:08 PM
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They're fine with whatever takes place in the privacy of a bathroom stall.

Heh. With the cold weather it's especially easy to spot and tax the park wankers, which is not a euphemism. Cold weather means more car to car action instead of the bathrooms and once it gets dark they're pretty much the only ones in the park. Normal people aren't in a park in a residential area when it's been dark for hours and the temps are below freezing. Jesus guys, get a fucking webcam or something. I'm getting a good deal of entertainment listening to them make up stories for being there and delivering lectures along the lines of "this petty traffic ticket is because the park is for barbecues, frisbee, and birthday parties, not for Manspank Meetup."

Pro tip: Wear sweats or exercise pants with an elastic waistband for easy access to your doodle. Frantically fumbling with your fly to get your erection back in your pants as a cop approaches your car looks like a nightmare, although it's hugely amusing from the cop's perspective.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:08 PM
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My position wasn't so much that we needed a public option (though I believe that very strongly), so much as fuck subsidizing the insurance companies.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:09 PM
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118: You need better insurance.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:10 PM
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I don't see donaquizote's point here. Is there a single profession that someone can go into with a more guaranteed chance of getting rich than medicine? Sure, not a million dollars a year, but what you call "really rich" is actually a subset of "rich".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:10 PM
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120: double comity.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:11 PM
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Is there a single profession that someone can go into with a more guaranteed chance of getting rich than medicine?

Heiressing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:12 PM
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it's hugely amusing

Dude. TMI.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:13 PM
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Being a doctor is about as unambiguously high status as you can get.

In the popular imagination, yes, along with being a lawyer.

One of the young ladies (senior in high school) with whom I spent Thanksgiving told us, apropos of her college plans, that she wanted to be a doctor. Given that she's not, in my purview anyway, shown much sign of interest in other people who are not also 16 years old, I had to wonder: why? She went on to explain that it involves a lot of school, though, so she's not sure yet.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:13 PM
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122: Investment banking. You kill all your patients and you're finished being a doctor. You crash the economy and make a trillion dollars worth of wealth disappear through blatant fraud, and not only your salary but also your bonuses get guaranteed by the United States government.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:14 PM
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You kill all your patients and you're finished being a doctor.

Unless you're a pathologist.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:15 PM
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122: I think her point was that with some kind of NHS-type system doctors would make significantly less, so many less people would be motivated to go way into debt to become doctors -- hence, the need to subsidize medical training.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:18 PM
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I'm getting a good deal of entertainment listening to them make up stories for being there

Maybe they were just talkin'.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:21 PM
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DQ:

Seriously? I represent lots of doctors and spouses of doctors. They are doing very well. Moreover, their incomes seem to have increased very nicely from 2002 until now. I am not feeling very sorry for the neurosurgeon whose income dropped back from $640,000 in 2008 to $580, 000 in 2009 and $530,000 in 2010 when they were making $350000 in 2002/3.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:22 PM
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I think even pathologists are supposed to wait for something else to kill the patient.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:23 PM
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hence, the need to subsidize medical training.

Or, medical schools could charge more. Med schools and law schools can only charge as much as they do because of the expectation people have that they'll be able to make loads of money upon graduation.

(A while ago I tried collecting data for first-year associate salaries at top law firms and tuition at Harvard Law over the past some number of decades, but it was gappy and I wasn't sure about the reliability of the former.)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:23 PM
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Med schools could charge LESS, rather.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:24 PM
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There are lots of urban myths being floated around about medicine:

"Lots of doctors are going to quit!"

Sure they are. When they do, we can import them from Indian and China. I'm not worried about losing doctors.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:24 PM
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I think even pathologists are supposed to wait for something else to kill the patient.

Right. The residents.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:25 PM
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Or, medical schools could charge more

You meant less, right?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:25 PM
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All this Cuccinelli chicken-fuckerism/crash the economy and get rewarded/tears of an Oompa-Loompa shit is depressing. I want more tips on public masturbation.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:26 PM
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135: You should be worried about losing GPs. Especially in a rural or poor area, they have trouble recruiting even with immigrants.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:27 PM
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Similar to nosflow's argument, hospitals and doctors only make obscene amounts of money because people pool their money together for insurance.

Individuals cannot afford health care. I am so tired of people acting like it is the other guy who isnt pulling their weight.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:28 PM
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Right. The residents.

I was always suspicious of those giant eyeball masks.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:28 PM
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I am so tired of people acting like it is the other guy who isnt pulling their weight.

One major source of health problems is the other guy pulling too much weight.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:30 PM
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(Incidentally: no one goes into medicine to get rich.

Sure, not a million dollars a year,

Plenty of people in medicine make that much or a lot more. And lots of the ones who don't still make vastly more than most people, and well above what most people would consider a threshold for "rich". (Didn't we just have this debate nationally, and decide it's somewhere between $250 and $1m annually? That's doctor income.) And I can't speak to people's motivations for choosing the field, but I doubt that's irrelevent to most of them.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:30 PM
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Or, medical schools could charge more

Or we could start relying less on doctors and more on RNs and pharmacists for delivering basic medical services. I shouldn't need to go to a doctor to get a prescription for the same asthma drugs I've been getting for the past 10 years. The pharmacist could give me what I need; I know what I need; but for some reason wasting a morning at the doctor's office is still part of the equation.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:32 PM
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122: Investment banking. You kill all your patients and you're finished being a doctor. You crash the economy and make a trillion dollars worth of wealth disappear through blatant fraud, and not only your salary but also your bonuses get guaranteed by the United States government.

Yeah, but like law school, and unlike medical school, you have a good chance of finishing your degree with no connections and no job.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:32 PM
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How about all of those pharmaceutical sales people making tons of money? Or pharmacists?

We pay for those salaries due to the high costs that get paid once we pool our risk.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:33 PM
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Or tort lawyers. You lose one watch...


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:34 PM
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Spike makes a great point. BR does primary care pharmacy. They can manage lots of conditions very well (heart, diabetes, etc)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:35 PM
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145: Really? A fair number of people I went to high school with who once wanted to be doctors or lawyers seem to have ended up in invested banking because it seemed easier.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:35 PM
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You should be worried about losing GPs. Especially in a rural or poor area, they have trouble recruiting even with immigrants.

I'd argue that dampening the peaks of physician income helps in this respect (the smaller the differential between general practice and lucrative specialities, the less incentive to follow the money). In that sense, the long-term impact of ACA (shifting physician compensation from fee-for-service to pay for performance) is more likely to help than hurt.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:35 PM
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142 to 138.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:37 PM
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I want more tips

Just the tips?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:41 PM
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You dont even really need a degree to be a doctor!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_med_fake_doctor


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:45 PM
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150 gets it right. Maybe nobody goes to medical school to get rich, but plenty of people who have gone to medical school then choose a specialty to get rich. There are a lot of statuses within that status.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:45 PM
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And people do go to medical school to get safely UMC, with a fair chance of small-scale-rich. It's an academically demanding route to 'small-scale-rich', but more secure than most other ways I can think of.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:51 PM
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That was me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:52 PM
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small-scale-rich

Drug dealers use small scales, and some of them are way rich.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:56 PM
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155: Lawyers always think that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 1:59 PM
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Rainbow trout have even smaller scales, but most of them are not very wealthy.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:00 PM
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What essear said, basically. At this point it seems like my entire peer group is composed of people who who went into either medicine or finance, wtih a small minority who went into law, and an even smaller minority who chose to actually use their fancy shmancy engineering degrees, and my sense is that people who care only about getting reeeeally rich go into finance, because...because that's literally the only point of finance. It's what everyone's there to do.

People who care about social status, and the lifestyle they think accompanies social status (comfortably wealthy), and who are risk averse enough to want a guarantee on all that, they go into medicine and work damn hard to make it into a cool specialty. (Also, presumably some of them care about healing people and want intellectually rewarding work.)

For the record, $1 mil and under is comfortably wealthy in my mind. "Reeeeallly rich" is more like fuck you money, so we're talking salaries of close to or more than $1 mil plus absurd, absurd bonuses. (I'm thinking of a dude who quit his firm a few years ago because his bonus was only 20 million and he was insulted. That's not entirely typical, but now my eye is twitching again anyway, so whatevs.) Maybe that's totally skewed, but you can make $1 mil in nyc and still not have an absurdly wealthy lifestyle.

Yes. I said "absurd."

Rambling on, medicine also seems to attract people who like the idea of a clearly defined life path. Or who can at least stomach it.


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:03 PM
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Oh. You all beat me to it. Hmm.

Anyway, my original point was supposed to be something along the lines of: since doctors don't generally expect to be super super rich, only comfortably wealthy and respected, surely that can still be accommodated. Making 250 instead of 600 without all that med school debt, and earning it sooner, might actually even out in the long run. (Assuming you invest wisely and your college roommate in finance doesn't screw you.)


Posted by: donaquixote | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:07 PM
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Rainbow trout have even smaller scales, but most of them are not very wealthy.

Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like... one... of... zzzzzzzzzzz.


Posted by: Opiated Jesus of Nazareth | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:15 PM
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At this point it seems like my entire peer group is composed of people who who went into either medicine or finance, wtih a small minority who went into law, . . . Maybe that's totally skewed, but you can make $1 mil in nyc and still not have an absurdly wealthy lifestyle.

Just for the record either your peer group is wildly unrepresentative or NYC in general is, or both.

(Also, just for the record, median household income in NYC was 38,293 for thr 2000 census.)

I'm not trying to be snarky, I just stumbled hard enough over the quotes sentences that I wanted to comment.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:20 PM
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in re. amazing social capital of lawyers, this apartment I want, the agent is being really sketchy about how landlord doesn't like lawyers, which is totally illegal (I mean it's legal not to like them--for now--but not legal not to rent to us because of it) but saying "that's illegal!" does not help me and look, how am I ever going to become a crazy state AG if I have to spend all my time looking for apartments and crying orange Boehner tears of rejection?

BEEKEEPER OUT.


Posted by: Violet G. Beekeeper | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:20 PM
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'Tell him that if he doesn't rent to me I'll give him a really good reason not to like lawyers.'


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:23 PM
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163: I think you have to make 'absurdly' do a lot of work in that sentence.

164: You're not allowed to discriminate against lawyers? I actually thought that was permitted.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:25 PM
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164: I had a landlord in law school who was absolutely convinced that all lawyer tenants were out to get him. I think he only rented to law students because if the choice was between people who don't pay their rent regularly and law students who always pay their rent but also might sue him, the latter was a better risk. But he could be so frustrating!

He decided one day to start using paint stripper on the floors in the unit below mine and I was freaking out because this stuff is lethal to birds and I only found out by virtue of the smell. So I'm holding my phone in my hand while talking to him because I had been calling people to make arrangements for where to keep my bird and he FREAKED out because he thought I was recording him. I still hate that guy.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:28 PM
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Nope, relevant city housing law says you can't discriminate against anyone getting any "lawful source of income or lawful occupation." HELLO, I put the LAW in lawful over here. The awful in lawful? Whatever.


Posted by: Violet G. Beekeeper | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:29 PM
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The F-U in lawful.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:31 PM
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you can make $1 mil in nyc and still not have an absurdly wealthy lifestyle.

Tom Wolfe has a detailed explanation of this in Bonfire of the Vanities

That was back in the 1980s, so I shudder to think of the hardships a person who only made $1 million a year would go through in NYC in 2010.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:34 PM
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||
The Andy Warhol Foundation is threatening to cease financing Smithsonian exhibitions if the institution does not restore a work of art that was removed from an exhibition after it prompted attacks by the head of the Catholic League and some Republican members of Congress. The Warhol Foundation gave $100,000 to the Smithsonian for the exhibition, "Hide/Seek: Difference and Desire in American Portraiture," at the National Portrait Gallery, where the work was removed.
|>


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:34 PM
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I was freaking out because this stuff is lethal to birds and I only found out by virtue of the smell.

The smell of a dead bird or your nose gives a very specific avian diagnostic report?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:34 PM
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167: If the bird had passed away, you could have sent him the bill.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:35 PM
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119: Look, I don't want to slip into what AWB calls "angry mommy" voice here but it's not actually all that hilarious that guys are so terrified of what will happen if they come out that they sneak around getting sex in places where they can get arrested. What you wrote, not least the phrase "normal people", really demonizes these guys. Who, yeah, are kind of pathetic (it's 2010--either come out and go on a date or get laid online like everyone else) and need to get it together, but...I dunno, it rubbed me wrong. (A little low-hangin' fruit there to lighten the mood.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:40 PM
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173 reminds me of a story told to me by the mayor of a small french town about two ancient ladies of the town who fought and fought and fought. One of their cats eventually went missing. The old lady searched high and low, then asked her enemy about it. Oh, I saw it, said the enemy, then went into her house, came out and whacked the first lady in the head with a frozen cat.


Posted by: Violet G. Beekeeper | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:40 PM
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175: I think we've all hit somebody in the head with a frozen cat, but I don't get the point of that story.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:42 PM
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[I]n re. amazing social capital of lawyers....

I've had a number of surprisingly bitter conversations about this lately. "Amazing" hasn't come up.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:43 PM
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What, people don't fawn at your feet when you tell them you're admitted to the bar? You must be saying it wrong.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:45 PM
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"Amazing" hasn't come up.

Probably need to stop thinking about baseball.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:45 PM
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174: I had similar feelings.

Are these guys bothering anybody?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:46 PM
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176: I think there isn't a point, except that I was reminded of it? Or maybe the point is that there are even worse people to rent your apartment to than lawyers, like people who kidnap and freeze cats?


Posted by: Violet G. Beekeeper | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:47 PM
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181: Oh! I had assumed that woman that kidnapped and froze the cat was a lawyer. I wonder what made me think that.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:49 PM
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Huh. Gswift's tone was flippant, but I do disapprove of people having sex in public places that might be of some other use -- it's really uncomfortable for people not engaged in the sex-having (see prior discussions of Larry Craig in TFA).

Along the lines of the end of 174, I'd be more sympathetic in 1972, or even in 1985. But these days, is prowling around a park actually anyone's safest way to get sex while closeted?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:50 PM
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163: I think you have to make 'absurdly' do a lot of work in that sentence.

One pleasure-dome is a reasonable expense for a wealthy person, but two is absurd.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:50 PM
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Slightly on-topic anecdote I heard today, re doctors, intelligence, authority.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:51 PM
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Basically, some doctor published an article in which he "discovered" the rectangle method for approximating the area under a curve.

The way I heard the anecdote (haven't really bothered to read the paper), he says he experimented enough with the method to be reasonably sure it works.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:54 PM
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183: I'll second this. Possibly I'm not happy because the public place used in Pittsburgh is a section of the park by my office.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:55 PM
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That's really wonderful.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:55 PM
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It is a very nice park. Has a skating rink and a pool.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:57 PM
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183, 187: But where else are lawyers supposed to have sex if no one will rent them apartments?


Oh...


Posted by: Violet G. Beekeeper | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:57 PM
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Let them fuck in penthouses.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:58 PM
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I am sure that it must be difficult to be discrete when it is so close to your office.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:58 PM
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||

Dayen on FDL ..."Talk of Severe Budget Cuts to Follow Tax Cuts

"This bipartisan compromise represents an essential first step in tackling the debt," McConnell said. "[B]ecause in keeping taxes where they are, we are officially cutting off the spigot."

c) Deficit hawkery will cancel any meager stimulus. In months.
b) Obama is providing massive support to starve the beast ideology and praxis
c) Next collapse will start at munis cities and states. In months.
d) But the tax cuts will remain. Even with another financial collapse Obama would not revisit them.
e) Wandering around the blogs, are any Democrats or liberals happier now, more content, less scared, more positive and optimistic than they were 5 years ago?

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 2:59 PM
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185 makes me physically hurt.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:00 PM
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I am sure that it must be difficult to be discrete when it is so close to your office.

In a way, not being discrete is the point of sex.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:02 PM
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183.2 If it isn't the best way these guys have thought of, why are they there? Nobody wants to get arrested. Right, ok, some small subset is there because the risk is a turn-on. But I'm going to guess that overwhelmingly they're there out of fear and desparation, and things being better than they were in 1972 is socioceconomically specific. (I know that's an easy gun to draw around here, but I don't think it's wrong.)

Your first paragraph I disagree with less, but on the other hand, gswift did specifically say that all the normal people are at home. Nobody out there making other use of the space. Just car wankers and enthusiastic arresters.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:06 PM
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That game I used to play, the one where I guessed the TNR posts authored by Jamie Kirchick in as few words as possible: I'm getting pretty good at doing that with mcmanus comments. On 193, I had him after three words.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:07 PM
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What, people don't fawn at your feet when you tell them you're admitted to the bar? You must be saying it wrong.

The main themes of the conversations have been: (i) the avalanche of contempt from clients to the profession to senior lawyers to junior lawyers to work product to clients and back; (ii) whether the growing number of women in law, sexism being what it is, indicates declining status (i.e., men yielding room for what lawyers call, with pitiable yearning, "the business side"); and (iii) whether the "regulatory schoolmarm" depiction of Elizabeth Warren, contrasted with the "free-spending, risk-taking cowboy" caricature of Larry Summers et al., speaks more to the subordinate status of the legal profession or to sexism.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:08 PM
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Shouldn't 191 be signed "Opinionated Marie Antoinette"?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:08 PM
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Personal notes:Firetruck stopped this morning two houses down. In 25+ years I have never seen a police car in this neighborhood doing work, i.e, dealing with crime. Not even a domestic dispute. In 25+ years I have seen two fires of any size. Firetrucks mean one thing only.

Not personally close, but two houses down was a retired guy who repaired lawn mowers in his front driveway. He was always out there working as I passed his house with the dogs. This afternoon old furniture and trash is accumulating by the street. Feeling so sad.

So I think I'll wait til sunset to walk the dogs so we can see all the Christmas displays.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:09 PM
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But I'm going to guess that overwhelmingly they're there out of fear and desparation, and things being better than they were in 1972 is socioceconomically specific.

Mmmmaybe. If the guys having sex in parks are disproportionately people too poor to have internet access, then I sympathize a little more. I guess when I think dude having sex with men in a park, I think suburban married guy who drove up in an SUV. But I could easily be wrong about that.

And on the 'all the normal people are at home', again I say mmmaybe. For one thing, it doesn't take many guys having sex in a park to make sure that there isn't a strong representation from other demographics there.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:12 PM
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197:"Dayen at FDL" ?

Give yourself a prize, brilliant one.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:13 PM
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199: Probably. I thought of doing that but in the end couldn't be bothered.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:13 PM
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202: Yeah, that would be distinguishing.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:15 PM
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Remember where gswift is policing. By moral right, that whole state should be made into a free-gay-sex zone, as reparations.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:16 PM
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Not quite so specific as "too poor to have internet access." But I'll let it rest at "much like the start and end of early modernism, complicated."


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:18 PM
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205.last: Come to think of it, that is a compelling argument.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:19 PM
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Early modernism and early modernity began and ended at completely different times. Fun!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:20 PM
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My neighbors keep telling me hysterically that folks (straight hookers, not closeted gay men -- what do you think this is, Utah?) are having sex in cars next to the park near my house. However, (a) no one actually claims to have seen anything themselves, they're just reporting what other people are saying; (b) I drive by that park almost every night, often quite late, and haven't noticed anything, and (c) it seems very full of families and kids throughout the day. So my conclusion is that people like to talk about other people having sex in and near parks.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:24 PM
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Oh, see I had confused the two concepts and thought Gurrelieder was written in 1650. It all makes sense now.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:29 PM
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Huh. Gswift's tone was flippant, but I do disapprove of people having sex in public places that might be of some other use -- it's really uncomfortable for people not engaged in the sex-having (see prior discussions of Larry Craig in TFA).

Part of what was frustrating about what gswift described was precisely that nobody is using the park when it's been dark for hours and is freezing (and that's part of what makes it so easy to spot them).

So I'm with bave. Free gay sex zone, the whole state.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:29 PM
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I guess when I think dude having sex with men in a park, I think suburban married guy who drove up in an SUV. But I could easily be wrong about that.

It's important not to generalize from your own personal experiences here.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:29 PM
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205: and given where gswift is policing, it's not hard to believe that the stakes for men who don't feel like they can be out are a lot higher.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:30 PM
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Anyhow, to be slightly serious, I don't really see "I can extend empathy to gay men who are suffering enough in the closet to go to a park for sex" and "It's probably best to keep the parks as usable public spaces for all by not letting them become notorious sites for public wank sessions, even at night" as remotely incompatible positions.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:35 PM
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If it isn't the best way these guys have thought of, why are they there? Nobody wants to get arrested.

You mean, why haven't they optimized their behavior within constraints?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:35 PM
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Following a cite one can see the secret glory of Tai's model in action. I assume we will all be hunted down and killed now.

Glucose and insulin areas during OGTT were determined with Tai's model (42): 1/2 × 30 × (y0 min + 2y30 min + 2y60 min + 2y90 min + y120 min), where y represents insulin or glucose values at the different time points.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:37 PM
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re 171

Here is some fool at the WSJ arguing that the fact that they yanked that video from the Smithsonian means that art isn't shocking anymore:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703377504575650882413327998.html


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:39 PM
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Free gay sex zone, the whole state

That's too radical for me. I'm thinking more along the lines of California marijuana laws: permits freely available if you can show any colorable claim of necessity, and a profusion of loosely regulated dispensaries


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:40 PM
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permits freely available if you can show any colorable claim of necessity, and a profusion of loosely regulated dispensaries

Isn't that model basically: legal for UMC folks who know how to assertively navigate bureaucratic hurdles, illegal for others?


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:42 PM
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219 -> living.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:44 PM
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216: I bet the version where the coefficients go like 1, 4, 2, 4, 1 would blow their minds.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:44 PM
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214: I guess the question to me is, is the law being applied fairly to everyone? And I would argue the answer here is no. Not only is it very possible for middle and upper-middle class gay men to find quasi-public sexual outlets, but there's a lot of straight public sex that doesn't bring down the same wrath, and indeed, is often tacitly accepted. When straight people have sex in the park, or in their car, or whatever it's just "those darn kids are at it again!", when gay men have public sex, it's ZOMGeleven, moral panic time.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:49 PM
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It's nice to see the medical community rediscover some of the knowledge lost in the collapse of Ancient Greece.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 3:53 PM
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214: no, surely not. And I don't think anybody is arguing for a free-for-all (I mean, doesn't bother me, doesn't bother England, doesn't much bother San Francisco, but baby steps, I guess), just pointing out that there's more sadness than hilarity to those wan hard-ons in gswift's flashlight beam.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 4:06 PM
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||

I'm going running even though it's 25° and windy out. If I don't make it back, please send the lady with the frozen cat looking for me. She'll know what to do.

|>


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 4:35 PM
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225: hooray! I am... not. I should, though! It's way warmer than that!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 4:39 PM
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Yes, yer man from Virginia is a vacuous douchebag. He lost messily on his effort to sue Mike Mann and I would suspect he'll probably do the same here.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 4:40 PM
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It's nice to see the medical community rediscover some of the knowledge lost in the collapse of Ancient Greece.

That paper that rediscovered the trapezoidal rule was good for a laugh, as was the post by the physics guy who noticed it. On the other hand, the physics people rediscover chi-square tests, principal components analysis, Bonacich centrality, and assorted other stuff, and we're all supposed to be tremendously impressed.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 4:52 PM
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228: they rediscover them more deeply.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 4:58 PM
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Do you know specific examples, Gonerill? If that's true, then the physicists involved need to be subjected to mockery, and I'd like to do my part.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 4:59 PM
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Actually, having just independently discovered Bonacich centrality it turns out it could be very helpful to something I'm working on. Go, me!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:00 PM
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225: Biked to work this morning at -5.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:00 PM
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230 gets it exactly right.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:04 PM
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232: Showoff.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:09 PM
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So I'm with bave. Free gay sex zone, the whole state.

Pikers. Compulsory gay sex zone, I say.

Also, a house I lived in turned out to have a cat in the freezer. Not the one I linked to the other day.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:12 PM
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232: I can't wait to show this picture to my husband! He gave me grief today about biking to work when there is no snow on the roads and it was 31F.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:17 PM
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He gave me grief today about biking to work when there is no snow on the roads and it was 31F.

Like, for doing it, or for not doing it? If he gave you grief for biking, well, that's just silly. 31F is perfect weather for it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:19 PM
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237: For doing it. He thinks it's dangerous to bike in the winter regardless of the actual conditions. My rule is I feel safe and comfortable biking when it's above 25F and there's no snow on the ground.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:22 PM
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Biking in snow is fun, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:25 PM
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What, does he read the signs as "slippery when cold" or something?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:26 PM
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||

No more masturbating to Richard Holbrooke.

|>


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:27 PM
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239: How do you avoid falling?

240: I don't get it at all.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:28 PM
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242.1: ride slowly and carefully, and be ready to put a foot down.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:30 PM
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I mean, or you could get studded tires, which apparently work astonishingly well. But what's the fun in that?

Around here you're more often dealing with slush, which skinny tires kinda slice right through.

The bigger problem generally is that rim brakes don't work very well at all when it's wet and cold. I handle that by having a fixed drivetrain but, again, going slow helps a lot.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:33 PM
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243: I have this fear of hitting a patch of snow and sliding into traffic. I take pretty busy roads to get to work. Maybe I'll work up to it, though. I'm only 9 months into this experiment.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:34 PM
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The bigger problem generally is that rim brakes don't work very well at all when it's wet and cold. I handle that by having a fixed drivetrain but, again, going slow helps a lot.

Roadies haven't embraced disc brakes?


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:37 PM
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245: yeah, I mean, contra my usual attitude with bike commuting ("aaahh, go for it"), I would certainly counsel easing into riding-in-snow-in-traffic. But definitely give it a try at some point when traffic isn't too bad (like, during a snowstorm). I think you might be pleasantly surprised.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:37 PM
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I mean, or you could get studded tires, which apparently work astonishingly well. But what's the fun in that?

I have studded tires and they do in fact work amazingly well.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:40 PM
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(also 222 gets it very right. i know we're sorta done with this topic but.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:41 PM
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||

No more masturbating. Full stop.

|>


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:41 PM
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246: like double-suspension and motocross-style body armor, not something you really need for commuting.

That said, cantis actually work pretty okay in the snow. LizSpigot totally needs a cross bike with these.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:42 PM
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250 Fuckin crazy Muslim German immigrants.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:46 PM
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246: like double-suspension and motocross-style body armor, not something you really need for commuting.

I never had the body armor, but I could never commute on my real bike, yeah. I have a commuter bike (of the "sitting up straight" variety), but I thought, you know, roadie gearheads.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:47 PM
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251: Oooh, thanks! That looks really effective.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:47 PM
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I guess they choose to invest their money in leg waxes instead.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:47 PM
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but I thought, you know, roadie gearheads

Disc brakes would be too heavy for a roadie gearhead.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:48 PM
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253: roadie gearheads and four-season commuters tend to occupy somewhat different niches, or at least use different bikes for those purposes.

Honestly, I thought about getting studded tires last winter because I figured I might need them, but it just never came up. A few days were slushy, but as long as I kept a good line and even pedaling rhythm I didn't really have any problems. I'll be sure to inform unfogged if I try to ride to work in a big storm and end up sliding all over the place.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:49 PM
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Disc brakes would be too heavy for a roadie gearhead.

See 255. Also, whenever I encountered this issue when I was regularly mountain biking, "Lose five pounds" always came out to be cheaper and more effective than spending the cash to save a pound or two more on the bike. Sadly, I'm now in the "lose twenty pounds" category so the argument is even more compelling.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:51 PM
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For all I know there are Serotta-rocking dentists who ride $3000 cross bikes with disc brakes and studded tires to work in the winter. I certainly wouldn't be surprised. But speaking as somebody whose newest bike antedates perestroika I probably won't get there.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:53 PM
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Down side to studded tires which might actually be a concern for tweety is that they have worse traction on hard surfaces like brick and cobblestone. Not a problem here where everything is covered in ice and snow for the entire winter, but could be an issue in Boston.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 5:58 PM
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||CAP is a commie institution. Yggy has decided to endorse nationalist communism. ('Our young hearts beat for you, oh Fatherland'). Or he's evilly accusing Cato of being nationalist commies.)>|


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:02 PM
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260: yeah and running them super-low-pressure doesn't sound so fun to me. I'll just ride on my road tires and see how it goes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:19 PM
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Dayen on FDL ..."Talk of Severe Budget Cuts to Follow Tax Cuts

I used to read FDL until they sided with the Republicans on healthcare.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:27 PM
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I used to read FDL until they sided with the Republicans apo on healthcare.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:40 PM
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||

Being against Rahm Summers Geithner Orszag and Obama does not mean you are on the side of Republicans. But whatever.

Mike Konczai at Rortybomb instead, rising young liberal economist

What to make of this? First off, I'm terrified at the idea that national wealth is roughly at the level to pay for the servicing of debt but not necessarily pay off any actual debt. Our household sector is at the point where we can make the minimum payment on our metaphoric credit card without paying any of it down, and the only other choice is to not pay it at all.

Cue Tennessee Ernie Ford. A commenter explains it to the kid. Who gets the interest? Jeez.

But I fucking get a hardon when I see a terrified liberal economist after the last thirty years. Fear instructs the complacent.

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:43 PM
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105

Incidentally: no one goes into medicine to get rich. ...

I also doubt this statement. In fact high salaries for doctors may decrease quality by attracting people who mainly care about money.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:51 PM
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||

Why is the internet suddenly full of people who think "common" is the way to spell "c'mon"?

|>


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:55 PM
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126

In the popular imagination, yes, along with being a lawyer.

Doctors have a much better reputation than lawyers. See here for example.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 6:55 PM
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166

You're not allowed to discriminate against lawyers? I actually thought that was permitted.

Not anymore in NYC. See here .


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:07 PM
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||

Re:265

And I'll be damned, immediately below Konczai is a new post by Maxine Udall Girl Economist entitled "Company Store Redux"

If the model is right (it does seem a rather good fit with reality), all of these measures require that a government constituted to be of, by, and for the people enact policies that support wage earners, that its elected representatives start serving 95% of the people rather than the top 5% that has so effectively commandeered it. It also requires that we the people find ways to become less dependent on a financial sector that no longer serves our best interests. Unfortunately, the last will likely contract an already fragile economy, at least in the short run.

For the last 30 years, the government has been part of the problem in this trend to increasing income inequality. It's time for government to become part of the solution in reining in financial sector excesses and restoring workers to something that approximates a fair share of national output. Otherwise, most of us will eventually find out what its like to "owe our soul to the company store."

Past time, Maxine, for Hope! Change! I feel the optimism starting to stir in my left occluded ball.

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:08 PM
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Serotta-rocking dentists

This is hurtful.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:14 PM
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271: Serotta-rocking history professors have no need for studded tires.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:15 PM
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... or disc brakes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:16 PM
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I don't even own an bike.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:18 PM
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I think about getting a bike instead of a bus, but the bus is a learning experience. Just this morning, I learned that if you want to, you can use an eyelash curler on a moving bus.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:36 PM
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Bus ownership is a pretty intense commitment.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:38 PM
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Maybe start with a short bus?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:41 PM
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I'd imagine. The head of our local transit authority is always in the news talking about how he cannot afford his buses.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:42 PM
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275: Or get both.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:45 PM
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272: I haven't owned a Serotta in many years, I'll have you know. And I haven't practiced dentistry in even longer than that time.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:50 PM
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||
The Snazzy Napper. At some point I'm sure there will be an appropriate thread for this "sleep and privacy shield" but good chance I'll have forgotten it by then.
|>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 7:57 PM
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280: I went 10 years without even seeing a dentist. It worked great right up to the massive pain and expensive root canal part. I have started to regret not getting a gold crown.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:02 PM
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If I cry about it, it will be tears over a crown.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:07 PM
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282:I have gone forty years. It is amazing how much is left. But not enough not to frighten children.

The first ten were really annoying because exposed cavities would hurt at every meal, with only occasional spectaculars. But then I started to look forward to the extremes, because it meant a nerve was dying. I think my jaw is all screwed due to abscess. Cancer maybe eventually.

The dying nerve abscess thing was...ecstatic. I like, Nick Nolte, have taken vice grips to my mouth, but only succeeded in shattering the tooth. Most often I had nothing but OTC tylenol, and of course I don't drink. It wasn't a pride thing exactly to maintain as if nothing was going on, not a Nietzschean ubermensch deal, just a defiance of my body probably some shame and shame defied. I don't know, as I struggled in conversation to keep my eyes from rolling up into my head, I somehow found the whole thing funny. I laughed a lot. Dude, like I should care about my pain. Who the fuck did I think I was.

There was the sepsis and death deal, but here I am.

I kinda miss those times.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:33 PM
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But ari, when was the last time you piloted a commercial airliner? (I typoed that as ariliner. Ha!)


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:36 PM
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At this point it seems like my entire peer group is composed of people who who went into either medicine or finance, wtih a small minority who went into law

My entire peer group seems like its composed of artists, musicians, librarians, gardeners, alcoholics, not-quite-addicts, general freaks, and social incompetents (or all of the above in some cases).

Oh, you mean the people I went to school with? Yeah, they're mostly doctors, lawyers, and brokers. Pretty successful, them.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:37 PM
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vise grips sorry


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:38 PM
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284: You know, the dentist really isn't that bad or that expensive if you want an extraction.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:41 PM
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Cancer maybe eventually.

You know I'm rooting for you, Bob. Always have been.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:42 PM
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Anyway, a tooth that has advanced decay is weak, so I'm no surprised that a vise-grip shattered it. I saw the X-ray of mine and it looked like the middle was gone. (I'm also not surprised about Nolte.)


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:48 PM
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I ran across a blog, bob, that I think you might like. Not sure exactly why, something about her voice.

http://prairiemary.blogspot.com/2010/12/genocide-how-disgusting.html


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:49 PM
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http://prairiemary.blogspot.com/2010/12/appaloosa-brandos-spaghetti-western.html


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:51 PM
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290:Movie Nolte. Affliction

289:I running out of years in which to become terminal.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 8:58 PM
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I running out of years in which to become terminal.

My mom says that God always gives us time to do the things we must do. (She also likes to say that "everything happens for a reason," an assertion that has driven me up the wall for thirty years.)


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:06 PM
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You're supposed to be up that wall. Have some respect for telos and your mother.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:17 PM
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running out of years in which to become terminal.

Maybe you can team up with Moby and become a bus terminal.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-13-10 9:22 PM
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Mmmmaybe. If the guys having sex in parks are disproportionately people too poor to have internet access, then I sympathize a little more. I guess when I think dude having sex with men in a park, I think suburban married guy who drove up in an SUV. But I could easily be wrong about that.

Lots of those, and quite a few just dig the public jerkoff and/or hookup thing.

And I'm not terribly sympathetic to the desperation angle here. Salt Lake is not backwoods Alabama. The city is actually quite gay friendly and has a large active gay population. If someone is desperately in the closet in this town it's almost certainly self imposed due to building a life around a religion. Which is indeed kind of sad, but maybe it's time to find a god who doesn't hate you.

When straight people have sex in the park, or in their car, or whatever it's just "those darn kids are at it again!", when gay men have public sex, it's ZOMGeleven, moral panic time.

Is there even a straight equivalent to the cruising subculture? For the sake of argument let's use the guys picking up street hookers. They're not using parks and it's not like we look the other way if someone wants to go through the McDonald's drive through with his pants around his ankles while getting a handjob from a street girl.(not a hypothetical, I ticketed some jackass a while back for that exact scenario)


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 1:46 AM
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Is the desperate guy who gets a handjob from the hooker in the drive through more or less deserving of empathy than the guys who pull up car to car to watch each other wank? Discuss.

Because everyone is supposed to be equal before the law, I'm pretty sure I'm required to make fun of both.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 1:51 AM
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297: Everybody celebrates the return of the McRib in their own special way. Don't be a hater, gswift.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 6:05 AM
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I'm lovin' it!


Posted by: Kobe | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 6:06 AM
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Insert "Happy Meal" joke here.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 7:03 AM
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"My McShake brings all the boys to the yard."


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 7:06 AM
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Re 216 at al.: I am embarassed that I forgot how to do that math. I also found out a couple of years ago that I couldn't remember the quadratic formula. I promptly set myself to memorizing it, even though I don't ever use it.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 7:11 AM
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Honestly, gswift, this fixation on the fact that it happens in a park seems disingenuous to me. Again:

Normal people aren't in a park in a residential area when it's been dark for hours and the temps are below freezing.

So I'm thinking it's not really about the disruption of "barbecues, frisbee, and birthday parties."

Really the only people who are likely to have to watch are you and maybe some shivering, half-frozen wildlife and birds. So essentially your argument boils down to "won't somebody PLEASE think of the chilled wren!"


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 7:43 AM
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304 wins.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:08 AM
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305: Indeed it does.

So, I just took my wedding and engagement ring off at the gym, tied them onto my headphones (shut up, it seemed reasonable at the time) while I did chinups, forgot to put them back on, and realized after walking out of the gym that they were neither on my finger or still tied to my headphones. Went back in, didn't find them near the chinup bar or near or in the locker room, left my name and number at the front desk.

If I don't get a call saying they've turned up today, does it make sense to put up a poster offering a reward? What would you offer in terms of percentage of the value of the rings?


Posted by: Terribly Embarrassed and Upset World Leader | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:17 AM
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305: Absolutely. He should break out some Cold Duck to celebrate the win.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:22 AM
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You should put up a poster and offer a reward (leave it unspecified), but anyone who actually accepts a reward is a douchebag.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:23 AM
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308 to 306, but 304 deserves a reward.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:24 AM
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What would you offer in terms of percentage of the value of the rings?

A blowjob in the park of the finder's choice?


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:25 AM
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Sad to say, but I have found that things that management swore hadn't turned up and no one had seen do tend to show up once rewards or (in the case of my purse once) "all the credit cards are turned off and the phone, too" are mentioned.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:26 AM
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304: xoxoxo!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:26 AM
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Maybe I'll call the club and ask them to tell the cleaning staff there's a reward. I figure if a patron picked them up, there's not much chance they'll be back to see a poster before tomorrow.


Posted by: Terribly Embarrassed and Upset World Leader | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:30 AM
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304 goes in the hall of fame. (We have one of those, right?)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:37 AM
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That must be a hefty engagement ring if it interferes with your ability to do chinups. Does it also mean you tend to list to port while walking?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:38 AM
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It cuts into my finger painfully if I'm hanging from it. Nothing to do with the size of the ring. And I'm really kind of wrecked about it -- I feel stupid enough already.


Posted by: Terribly Embarrassed and Upset World Leader | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:40 AM
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313: Sounds about right, but I would just tell them there is a reward, rather than directing that part only at the cleaning crew.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 8:43 AM
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Good luck. There should be a decent chance that some combination of the holiday spirit and a well-placed reward offer will get it turned in and back to you.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 9:23 AM
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Deep sympathy to the World Leader. If they've been (eg) knocked aside under a piece of equipment, the staff might not find them immediately anyway - reward definitely a good idea if only because it might motivate the staff to (eg) look under pieces of equipment. Try $100?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 9:30 AM
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Is there even a straight equivalent to the cruising subculture?

There's that dogging thing in the UK that US papers occasionally talk about. Though I'm not sure where it falls on the spectrum of rainbow parties to fairly common subculture like gay cruising areas.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:11 AM
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Dogging certainly exists, and I've had 'friends' confidently explain to me where the areas are in their home town. Never met anyone who admits to going to one, just people who mysteriously 'know' where it happens.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:15 AM
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What would you offer in terms of percentage of the value of the rings?

Surely this varies with the value of the ring. And I have no idea what the value of the ring is, but $100 (as suggested above) sounds low.

Any rough guess what the ring could be pawned for? If it's really important to you to have it back, I'd use something close to that.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:17 AM
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322: I'm working on the basis that there are three possible situations here.
Someone's lifted it to pawn it: in which case it's gone already.
Someone's picked it up for safe-keeping - in which case they'll get in touch once they see the poster.
Or it's lying undiscovered somewhere - in which case the reward will motivate people to search who wouldn't want to pawn it anyway.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:21 AM
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322: That was kind of my thinking -- I just don't know how to get from purchase price back when it was bought to pawn value now.

323.1: I was hoping that someone planning to pawn or sell might have not yet gotten around to it by the time they see the poster.


Posted by: Terribly Embarrassed and Upset World Leader | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:27 AM
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Your first and second scenario seem right, but I was thinking of the third as it's lying undiscovered somewhere, and when someone stumbles across it, they might think twice about accepting a reward of x for a ring worth 30x. But maybe I'm being too cynical. TEUWL: is your gym filled mostly with Democrats or Republicans?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:28 AM
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325 to 323.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:29 AM
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325: Well, I'm picturing someone here who's basically honest and wouldn't think of pawning someone else's ring. So the ring's valueless to them (except for the warm glow they'd get by returning it). But if there's a reward, then the ring's worth $100 plus the warm glow to them.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:36 AM
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Right. If a basically honest person finds the ring, I think TEUWL is in good shape.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:39 AM
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322: but $100 (as suggested above) sounds low.

Yes, based on nothing very concrete in my mind I had it at $200. Gets it beyond the kneejerk $100, but not so high that it prompts someone to think, "Hmm, maybe I should get this thing appraised."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 10:53 AM
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Honestly, gswift, this fixation on the fact that it happens in a park seems disingenuous to me

Hilarity of chilled wren aside, the focus on the park is because the thrust (hey-o) of the law is the location. Circle jerk in a motel or your apartment is not the same as in the park or on the subway. It's not occurring just when the park's empty and we do in fact get complaints about that sort of thing on a regular basis. It happens to be especially noticeable to me during the times I mentioned because I work a 2-midnight shift. Regardless of my personal views the law and the public have deemed Wankapalooza a non approved use of the park. So yeah, I sometimes go through the park telling wankers to take it elsewhere and giving the occasional traffic ticket. All the guys who've gotten tickets were driving nicer cars than I do so I'm pretty sure no one's being overly traumatized here.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 11:06 AM
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On occasion as an adult I have had what seemed at the time reason to get it on in a car parked in a public park. I was told to move it along elsewhere by not-so-secretly-bemused cops. Ergo, the poor and rich alike hetero and homo sexual activity is frowned upon.


Posted by: J-Mo | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 11:39 AM
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I don't want to fuck with anybody's head, but if a basically honest person had found the ring, wouldn't they have handed it in to somebody at the club?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 12:00 PM
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That's my thinking. My only hope from the reward is to attract the attention of a basically dishonest person who's jumpy about pawning or reselling something.


Posted by: Terribly Embarrassed and Upset World Leader | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 12:03 PM
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not-so-secretly-bemused


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 12:05 PM
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Ergo, the poor and rich alike hetero and homo sexual activity is frowned upon.

"The law, in its majestic equality. . ."


Posted by: OPINIONATED ANATOLE FRANCE | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 12:25 PM
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Damn you apo. And damn those italics tags that were supposed to be strike tags.


Posted by: JMO | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 12:27 PM
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bemused is a possibility.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 12:27 PM
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bemused is a possibility.

"For a gay parkwanker, that one guy sure had nice titties."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-14-10 12:46 PM
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To the OP: interesting, though unsubstantiated conjecture.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 12-16-10 5:42 AM
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