I'm very sorry about this, but if the kid involved turns out to have been influenced by her, you (the sane faction of the US public) now have to pin this on Palin and her friends mercilessly. It's too late to worry about preserving the quality of public debate or avoiding hate speech or any of the other luxuries available to people who live in healthy polities.
If they have stared killing people, they have to be called out for what they are, and their allies have to be made to say whose side they're on. For a start.
1: Yes clearly. In particular, I don't think it matters if this kid turns out to be bat-shit crazy. One of the things that happens in a world of violent rhetoric is that people who might other wise act out their craziness in less destructive ways decide instead to shoot up public gatherings.
1: To which they will say that of course they condemn violence, and then merrily continue calling liberals traitors. The media, satisfied, will move on.
2. Agreed. But the suicidal "moderatism", for want of a better word, that tends to afflict this site when faced with an actual, real life crisis, is so unpredictable that I tried to pull my punches to avoid derailing the thing from the get go.
Reuters is now reporting that the hospital says she's still alive and in surgery. I guess it will be unclear what her real status is for a while longer. In any case, it's horrible.
Conflicting reports on Representative Giffords' current condition. Several outlets have already reported her death, while the latest reports say she's alive and in surgery.
Representative Giffords and the other victims are in my prayers this afternoon.
And yes, fuck Sarah Palin.
1,2:Like y'all did with the Tiller murder, huh. You showed 'em. This far, and no more.
Like y'all did with the Tiller murder, huh.
Bob was the only one willing to do what it takes to ensure it would never happen again.
but I hope people take something horrible like this as a reminder that we've seen a lot of overheated political rhetoric over the past couple of years.
Fuck us firebaggers.
OK, now Yglesias can officially go fuck himself.
If there'd been a bit of overheated rhetoric back at these motherfuckers, so they didn't learn that they could say what they wanted without consequences, Giffords might have gone home to her children.
Oh shit!, quoth our Matthew, the house is on fire. But please be careful with those hoses, you might get the carpets wet!
You know, the four elemental baggers: firebaggers, teabaggers, carpetbaggers, and baggers vance.
Nevermind the Democrats, the Republicans are going to use this to shit can in advance of 2012 the Tea Party, with whom many are not altogether keen on being saddled. I'm watching it happen on Fox News.
A teabagger who likes Jane Hamsher.
Ah. I see. You know, given the choice (firebagger, dogbagger, or lakebagger), I'd have gone with the third one, because if you put enough tea into a lake that it became a lake of tea, I bet that would feel like a real accomplishment.
15: really? Fox News is distancing itself from the Tea Party? I thought Fox News was the tea party.
Shep Smith is telling me 19 shot, 5 dead. Please educate this effete coastal liberal: Can one do that with a handgun?
TPM reporting that a federal judge was among those shot.
17: No, it was some Republican elected official talking about how all the insanity around Giffords' office had gotten completely out of hand and the rhetoric was entirely unacceptable, etc. Fox right now is being anchored by Shep Smith, who is in fact a reasonable man.
They're saying "grave condition" -- that's worse than critical, right?
I'm watching it happen on Fox News.
Now that is interesting. I wonder if they were counting on something like this.
(Why are you watching Fox News? If you like pain, there are websites...)
21: I read somewhere that a chippie blond reporter on Fox had asked: "There are reports the shooter yelled something. Is there any information on what he yelled and what language it was in?" I wanted to see for myself how insane they were getting. But it's fairly normal right now.
"I've said it many times here before..."
Regarding the Fox News reporting I thought this was interesting.
A friend and state senator is on Fox reporting that she is responding to commands.
23: To be fair, it's not that far removed (the '60s) to have plenty more political violence in this country than we do right now.
The era is still young, heebie. Anyhow, a sample status update from my Facebook feed: "Hide your guns fokes, click your TV's to MSNBC and listen to the spin." First comment: "When I heard what had happened, this was the first thought I had. The liberals are REALLY going to go after our guns now."
I still want to know wtf kind of gun can do this???
Fox is very keen that we all understand how staunch a supporter of the 2d Amendment Giffords is.
28: Here on an island off the coast of America, the FB feeds read quite differently.
18: Sure you can shoot that many people with a handgun or handguns. There are magazines for Glocks that hold 30 rounds. Or you could quickly extract and replace one of the standard ones.
I thought I read in some news article that the gun was a semiautomatic. Which doesn't rule out handgun, right? (My ignorance: let me show you it.)
28 is appalling. Get better friends, apo.
29: Also see, for instance, the Beretta Cx4 Storm -- a very small carbine that shoots a pistol caliber round (9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP) and which also accepts high-capacity magazines.
28: I guess I'm just saying that the country has weathered such violence before, and fairly recently. That your prediction may very well be right, and yet not be that catastrophic when seen over the course of a few decades.
31: Yes, it is somewhat unlikely that such a high body count would have been accomplished with a revolver or a bolt-action, pump action or lever-action firearm. So almost certainly a semi-automatic -- like the Glocks many police officers carry, or the Beretta 92 that the military favors, or the Hi-Points that are the inheritors of the Saturday Night Specials of yore.
Which doesn't rule out handgun, right?
Right. Semi-automatic simply means that you pull the trigger once for each shot, after which another round is chambered (readied for fire) without the shooter having to do anything. Most handguns in circulation today are semi-automatic.
I could see similar messages, but I hid all of those people long ago.
From TPM:
Federal Judge John Roll was shot and killed in this morning's attack in Tucson. He had earlier been under protective custody because of threats tied to case tied to the illegal immigration issue in the state.
Her doctor is on tv saying that Giffords is out of surgery and that he is "very optimistic about her recovery." Shot was "through and through" the temple.
And the one patient who died at the hospital was a child.
President Barack Obama called the shooting "an unspeakable tragedy" and that such "a senseless and terrible act of violence has no place in a free society.
Of course, the problem here is that the other side is not even a tiny bit interested in living in a free society. Whether they want a theocracy, an authoritarian strongman, a plutocracy of wealthy oligarchs or some combination of those, appealing to freedom and decency is not going to convert anyone away from their particular subset of fascism.
Bob, some of just aren't stupid enough to post violent rhetoric in a public forum, whether or not we think something needs to be done. STFU.
They're reading the guy's writing on the teevee and . . . it wasn't teabaggy. It was fruitcakey.
"I will never trust in god. The government is controlling our minds via their control of English grammar."
Oh, and of course, "Blah blah the gold standard."
10,13: I'm not sure what you're reading in Mr Yglesias' comment that so objectionable. He seems to be telling the right wing to chill the fuck out.
Well, I have to say I don't love it when my facebook page explodes with cries of JIHAD!!!!! when some schizophrenic with a middle eastern name does something.
At any rate, it's totally unclear to me at the moment, since there was some other ranting about "Federalism" and "people not reading the Constitution."
46, 47: Also, "read the United States of America's Constitution to apprehend all the current treasonous laws." Fruitcakey, but right-wing paranoid fruitcakey.
"The population of dreamers in the United States is less than 5%."
Fruitcakey, but right-wing paranoid fruitcakey.
It has hitherto been an article of faith with me that the overlap in the Venn of 'fruitcake' and 'teabag' is huge, possibly > 50%. This belief, that the tea party is largely a consolidation of most of the right wing nutters with a small sprinkling of cynical opportunists, has kept me going for years. Please don't disillusion me.
Yeah, I mean, of course this Loughner character is a nut. Most assassins are nuts. Even the best ideologized ones usually have a screw loose. There's just not a lot of percentage in assassinating people. Even if they really deserve it. If you're talking about Hitler or Franco, then, okay, it's reasonable to sacrifice your life and freedom, but some 2 term congressperson? Nobody sane would waste their life on that. Doesn't change the fact that it's clearly the slightly-saner lunatic fringe of the far right that pushed him in this direction.
48: Notice the absence of the phrase "right-wing" in his comment.
Oh, man. I think that maybe Obama's statement was written when everyone thought she was dead? Because there was just a misplaced "was" for "is."
On the pistol front: The one from his deleted MySpace page sure looks to be a Glock. So 12-15 rounds with a regular magazine, up to 30 with one of the somewhat silly, I-am-clearly-overcompensating ones that stick way out of the butt.
His YouTube channel via TPM.
Favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.
57. Here, let me google it for you: "Books which wind up old people".
53: Piss off, snob.
57:Fucking lousy Platonist! I knew it. (not you, oud)
Took a time out. Yggles comments remind us of the firebombs this week. Of course Palin is scrubbing her sites.
Look, the Yggles comment instantly makes you think "...on both sides" even if he doesn't say it. It will be interesting to see how the neo-liberals use this in the move up to the SotU. "Folks, when Obama feeds you catfood, don't get mad."
Look, if I ever get some severe brain damage, I hope the miracle workers don't succeed in keeping me half-alive. Maybe she will be lucky.
OPINIONATED CHARLES GITEAU
That spelling of the surname is the opinionated part, right? 'Cause that's a weird opinion of how to spell it.
54: Notice also the absence of the phrase "on both sides." Perhaps we could consider interpreting the comment charitably?
The Phantom Tollbooth winds up old people?
62:It made you think of the words too. Never said Y wasn't smart.
Thanks, Stanley.
There's just not a lot of percentage in assassinating people.
Indeed it's difficult to come up with a single example of a political assassination that was effective in advancing the ideological goals of the assassin.
69:Jesus fuck. I have been studying 20s and 30s Japanese history. You are out of your skull.
Assassinated Japanese Politicians
MLK & Bobby Kennedy might be solid examples. Gandhi, perhaps?
http://twitter.com/caitieparker
Doesn't appear to have been a right winger at all.
71: I'm pretty sure Yawnoc was being facetious.
FDL has pretty good coverage of the main blogs
Perhaps we could consider interpreting the comment charitably?
Why?
70: I apologize for being ignorant of Japanese history.
71: Did MLK's assassination halt the advance of civil rights? Did RFK's assassination result in any tangible change in the U.S.'s Israel policy? Did Gandhi's assassination stop Pakistani independence?
69: what's his face in Israel got what he wanted.
73. I fucking hope so. Yitzhak Rabin.
73: Nope. But thanks for interpreting me charitably!
75: Because I hate fun.
72: Yeah, even the "read the Constitution" and "treasonous laws" comments seem to be in direct reference to the gold standard, which is kinda Birchery, but also very "I am now a schizophrenic."
78: OK, apparently not. I stand corrected.
Fucking lousy Platonist! I knew it. (not you, oud)
I have already blamed CA.
72: Teabaggers generally don't listen to Anti-Flag, but, well, now that they signed to a major label . . .
Gold is oro in Spanish. Spanish has grammar. You can't spell Soros without "oro". Isn't it obvious? George Soros is to blame.
76.1:It's ok, you are not alone.
I do wonder why it isn't better known, I think pre-WWII Japanese history is much more interesting and useful to political science than Germany or Italy or Russia. Japan remained something of a democracy or small-r republic all the way thru surrender in 1945.
There's a good case that the assassination of Lincoln advanced the ideological goals of the murderer. Also Gavrillo Princip and the Archduke Ferdinand, in a more roundabout way.
77, 78: I would hesitate to credit Rabin's assassination the slow motion disaster of Israel 1995-present (it didn't stop Barak from coming to the table in 2000 and I doubt it had much to do with why he walked away from it), but I'll grant that it's a matter of interpretation (charitably!).
So, his friends of a his late teenage years say he was "philosophical" and "leftist" and now at 22 he is raving about government mind control via English grammar. Kid's a schizophrenic.
86: Booth's goal was to put Andrew Johnson in charge of Reconstruction? Archduke Ferdinand? ... I'm speechless.
88: Probably. But "has schizophrenia" is more nicer wording.
I'll toss in a counterexample: the assassination of Luis Carlos Galán effectively put the Colombian government on notice that the cartels were not to be fucked with. But that's less an example of political assassination ("this particular person is uniquely terrible and deserves to die/needs to be gotten out of the way") than an example of terroristic violence ("anybody who doesn't toe the line is going to get it").
Kid's a schizophrenic.
Likely true. Also, likely Palin and Kelly's first line of defense. Or second; their first line will probably be to attack anyone who tries to make a connection between the shootings and their eliminationist rhetoric, even as they scrub their sites.
Also, likely Palin and Kelly's first line of defense.
No, that will be that his friends say he was a leftist and he says he doesn't believe in God and got angry when he was given a Bible at an Army recruiting station.
he was a leftist
This has apparently already happened. Some former bandmate claiming he was a liberal in high school.
Yes, schizophrenia steeped in...Arizona.
God this is bleak.
(Apologies if I've just been needlessly repetitive; I've only read half the thread, will rectify that now. But I am just...God.)
Didn't the 60s get way, way worse before they got better?
Ah, oudemia. Of course.
Wordlessly terrible.
I think the scariest part is the sense of inevitability.
From Mr. Guiteau's wiki entry:
Despite the "group marriage" aspects of that sect, he was generally rejected during his five years there, and was nicknamed "Charles Gitout".
Didn't the 60s get way, way worse before they got better?
The 60s never got better. A few isolated good things happened, but they were all bad until they got worse until you just had to head for the hills.
Ah, oudemia. Of course. Wordlessly terrible.
Oh, I'm terrible. But not wordlessly so, alas.
70: Lincoln's assassination arguably opened the way for the horrible compromises that castrated reconstruction and kept slavery and discrimination quasi-legal for the next century. Would Lincoln have been as weak as Johnson?
Also: Franz Ferdinand; ultimately the result was the independence of Serbia and the end of the Austrian threat.
Ernst Rohm.
The Japanese ones in the 30s, as bob mentioned.
Jean Jaures.
Juvenal Habyarimana.
Engelbert Dollfuss, arguably.
99: D'oh! Sorry. I was disconnected from the world for a few hours, then plugged in and WHAM. I feel kind of stunned stupid. Now I'm just refreshing everything like a Skinner crack rat.
Engelbert Dollfuss
Surely this is not a real person.
/Upon looking up Engelbert Dollfuss/
How did I not know that particular dude's name was ridiculous.
Things like this make me glad that I wasn't a stoner for that year in high school. There would have been a lot of inappropriate laughing.
On the other hand, not having been a stoner for that particular year, I wonder why I didn't know the name. Conundrums!
Still quite sad / frightened / increasingly angry.
100.1: "Arguably" in the sense of really incorrectly.
I can haz a career upgrade?
(Get it, guys? I'm talking like one of those cats!)
Engelbert Dollfuss
Surely this is not a real person.
I once corresponded, professionally, with a Dutch lawyer named E/gb/ert Vr/oo/m.
In unrelated news, I should have known that an actual grisly, murderous spasm would not embarrass bob, even for a moment, out of his adolescent enthusiasm for somebody killing somebody. One is reminded of John Keegan's anecdote about the museum curator of arms & armour who wrinkled his nose over Keegan's remark that one of the most common indirect consequences of the antique ordnance in his collection had been to blast human debris -- teeth, fragments of bone -- deep into the flesh of other persons.
antique ordnance in his collection
Laydeez.
108: I would have gone with "deep into the flesh of...," but de gustibus.
107:Note who is getting the blame and condemnation. Flippanter has no time to attack to his right. He has his work to do.
And, donaquixote, this is how I remember the 60s.
Daley's cops beating kids with truncheons, and the Flippanters and Yglesias and Perlsteins of the age getting all down on the Left for inciting violence.
110, 111: If it makes you feel better, bob, you might try interpreting my disgust neither morally nor politically, but aesthetically. To wit, I consider you, your expressed views and the resentment on which they hang base and contemptible.
112:That's neat, because I have always considered anarchism to be as founded in decadent aestheticism as Randite libertarianism, and equally irresponsible in principle.
Go stick a flower in a Tea Party Glock, Flipp, and call yourself beautiful.
113: anarchism to be as founded in decadent aestheticism
We are the people your parents warned you against, bob.
100: I'm not sure how the Night of the Long Knives fits in with this discussion. Much more of a series of executions, than assassinations, surely?
Go stick a flower in a Tea Party Glock
Funny, since you have always been the only person here advocating making common cause with the Tea Party, Bob.
115
I also question Rohm's inclusion. Perhaps Kirov is a better example.
117:read my comment in the LB thread below, apo, the one with Wolin quotes. I still don't think the Right and Tea Party are the greater or more dangerous enemy, and didn't back in the 60s. Nixon's "Southern Strategy" was not to the benefit of backwoods crackers. You know how the plutocrats and neo-liberals are going to use this. Right-wing violence creates repressive societies and Empire;left-wing violence creates the New Deal and the Declaration of Human Rights. There are reasons it works this way, and ways to use it, and reasons why the Left is conditioned to be appalled by violence.
But I apparently have a surfeit, a veritable cornucopia of enemies.
Only the worthy have enemies, bob. You have superiors.
How obnoxious, Flippanter.
Anyway. I haven't understood firebaggers to be just teabaggers who like Jane Hamsher (i.e. FDL): but maybe I should google the term in a search for further knowledge.
But I apparently have a surfeit, a veritable cornucopia of enemies.
But you live in a neighborhood with "ethnics", so at least you probably have good take-out.
Of course the intent is to connect FDL, or any criticism of Obama and neo-liberalism from the left, to the far right.
123: Hooking up with Grover Norquist helps that along, too.
123: I don't really want to rehearse this at length -- it having been discussed aplenty -- but Hamsher and some in the FDL community haven't helped themselves by making common cause with Grover Norquist.
From your wikipedia link:
[the term] has been applied to members of FDL to accompany allegations of seeking ideological purity within the Democratic Party
I do take that to be an accurate representation of the term "firebagger", and it has a family resemblance to the Tea Party, I suppose.
That said, the false equivalence not infrequently drawn between the rhetorical excesses of the far right and that of the far left -- where FDL counts here as far left -- is hogwash. Hamsher doesn't advocate or incite violence. You, bob, do.
Can we leave this now? It really has been discussed ad nauseam, and I thought we all knew it.
This is really more interesting to me:
15: the Republicans are going to use this to shit can in advance of 2012 the Tea Party, with whom many are not altogether keen on being saddled. I'm watching it happen on Fox News.
I think it's been said for a while now that mainstream Republicans will be seeking to distance themselves from the Tea Party *as soon as they possibly can*. They need moderates in order to win the next election; Palin's not very popular among moderates; she and people like Michelle Bachmann are embarrassing, and the militia crap attached to some branches of the Tea Party is alarming to all.
I hope to god everybody stops with the references to targeting and 2nd amendment solutions now.
I once made a veritable cornucopia of enemas. Now nobody will have me for Thanksgiving.
You, bob, do.
Be careful. "Leftist violence gave us the Declaration of Human Rights" is a far cry from even Sarah Palin putting crosshairs on Congresspersons.
Inciting violence is illegal. You should quote and paste when making accusations of illegal speech-acts.
You're first!
No results found for "cornucopia of enemas".
"Attempted Assassination of Congresswoman Giffords"
Federal Judge Roll is dead. It was a successful assassination.
There are two lessons that need to be learned. The first is that the moderates must understand that they will not survive in coalition with the right, that the noose around their necks will tighten, and grown tighter with each year. The second is for the left to realize that if there is to be political courage, there must be political coverage. That means the willingness to put bodies in the line of fire, because otherwise, the center will see us as fair weather friends, and foul weather dead weights.The bullet box is replacing the ballot box.
In large measure this is the fault of the moderates, they were happy with a "good enough" recovery, and have sat down and declared themselves the best of all possible worlds. Since this was a recovery for the rich, but not for everyone else, the inevitable result is violence in favor of the out party. Since there is no extreme left party available in any form, right wing socialism is the natural outlet for the violence.
Though this is the first hit for the phrase without quotes.
129: I should have taken a picture.
And, according to my relatives, used enemas that hadn't seen duty.
used enemas
You scoff, but there's a market for everything.
It is interesting how little attention is being paid to the fact that a US District Court Judge has been shot dead.
You should quote and paste when making accusations of illegal speech-acts.
No, what he should do is edit the db to make you sound like a violent loon. If he were subtle enough, we might not even be able to tell the difference: e.g. You should stab the Pope, and also quote and paste when making accusations of illegal speech-acts .
"[Giffords'] husband is training to be the next commander of the space shuttle mission slated for April. His brother is currently serving aboard the International Space Station."
137: Someone reported earlier that her husband was aboard the Space Station. I was very concerned about how they would get him down. (Soyuz capsule "lifeboat" equivalen, apparently.)
135: A great deal of attention is being paid to the fact that several people have been shot, some of them dead.
More will be known eventually about the shooter's intentions and mindset, no doubt. In the meantime I want to see the inciters to violence eat some fucking crow.
What's your fucking point, bob?
If crows are going to be eaten, I feel certain that Moby will be happy to kill them in advance of the meal.
And what loved the shot-pellets
That dribbled from those strung-up mummifying crows?
What spoke the silence of lead?
Crow realized there were two Gods-
One of them much bigger than the other
Loving his enemies
And having all the weapons.
You must buy Christmas cards from the same store as my mom.
I wonder what the story is with the second suspect they're looking for. This might be something more complicated or weirder than just a schizophrenic acting alone for no comprehensible reason.
Or it could just be somebody who gave him a ride, unaware. But yeah, I'm curious too.
143/44: Yeah, "50yo white man" set off creepy alerts. That's the key angry dude demo.
Maybe he was a straw purchaser for the gun. The assassin might have been unable to pass a background check.
You know, the four elemental baggers: firebaggers, teabaggers, carpetbaggers, and baggers vance.
I thought it was teabaggers, firebaggers, carpetbaggers, and douchebaggers.
On the pistol front: The one from his deleted MySpace page sure looks to be a Glock.
Some sources are saying a Glock 19, same as Seung-Hui Cho at Virginia Tech.
As depressing as this is, one has to applaud those who took down the shooter and kept that literal. It is a great thing that, even with every reason for it, they did not degrade to this beastly state of "free" that is so popular amongst douchebaggers.
(and as a non-native English speaker I really would like to understand where 'douchebag' stems from)
The one from his deleted MySpace page sure looks to be a Glock. So 12-15 rounds with a regular magazine
The 17 is select-fire - single rounds or bursts of three. That's the one the Met shot Jean-Charles de Menezes with.
I may be an idiot, but MY doesn't seem to refer to any "overheated rhetoric" from the Left? Has he been scrubbing his posts? Or is someone just indulging in quote-and-hope-nobody-clicks-through? Also, Bob, do you think this guy was in favour of nationalising public utilities and an expanded role for labour unions (quote from Bob passim)?
Anyway, obviously the pigfucker right is guilty. Go demonstrate.
137/138: what makes you think the guy on the ISS wants to come down? This is the sort of news that would make me want to stay up there.
Quote: No! I won't pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver!
Keynes: The mad rants of men in authority are usually the echo of some forgotten economics professor.
150:I am sorry, but the paragraph starting "I may be an idiot..." doesn't contain enough sense for me to able to make a response. I can only say that if MY had meant "overheated rhetoric from the right" he would have said so. That leaves two options for what he did mean, neither of which is appropriate on a day Democrats died.
Also, Bob, do you think this guy was in favour of nationalising public utilities and an expanded role for labour unions
I have no idea, and do not intend to watch his videos. In any case his act is defined by the target(s) he chose.
As for demonstrations, they may be an appropriate second step after the grieving and candlelight vigils, but they should be distinguishable from grieving and candlelight vigils. Democrats should not be begging for peace and stability as a response to the murders of their friends and allies.
This is how the right answers calls for peace and justice.
and This
I will leave to my betters to hope our enemies feel honest remorse and shame.
Didn't the 60s get way, way worse before they got better?
No, they got way, way worse and stayed that way.
150: At the time, they were reporting it was her husband on the ISS and that she was dead. They have two small children.
I really would like to understand where 'douchebag' stems from)
The land of low hanging fruit, apparently.
152
... That leaves two options for what he did mean, neither of which is appropriate on a day Democrats died.
Judge Roll was a Republican.
After comments 152/157, i await retractions
152
I don't think the political affiliation of the 9 year old girl who was killed has been released.
Shut up and sit DOWN, bob. It may be pointless to engage with you, depending on how unstable you truly are, but just in case there is something worth reaching: it is disgusting to treat a tragedy as just another opportunity to start a confrontation about you. To use this as just another provocation. (I refer here to your behavior through out the thread.) Please, stop it.
That said, I think it is unlikely (to say the least) that this will have any positive effect on your behavior, and, in fact, probably only encourages your particular type of bullshit. But you have to try at least once.
Now I'm going to go back to treating you like a less honest version of ToS.
The wingnut trolls are infesting most of the blogosphere today.
After comments 152/157, i await retractions
You won't get them.
1) I never said "only" Democrats, there was a nine year old girl
2) Terrorists and mass-murderers aren't exactly known for their fastidiousness;that there might have been Arabs in the nightclub in no way vitiates the horror of the bombing or its intent
3) I don't care. My purpose is not to be fair and balanced but to prevent, although I doubt it possible, further Republican atrocities perpetrated on women, children, and Democrats. I do not limit my rhetoric when attempting to save the lives of people I care about.
And I don't give a flying fuck for my enemies.
152:Okay, okay
This is why I get so discouraged
Go hug a Republican, Dona, send some sympathy Palin's way. I'm sure she's feeling just terrible.>/i>
It will happen again, but this is like the thousandth right-wing atrocity in my lifetime, so that doesn't matter anyway. Nothing changes for the better.
Kumbaya. Outa here.
148: And, as long as we're getting all technical about this, probably loaded with ball (non-expanding) ammo, which accounts for the high number of people injured vs killed.
"Dr. Peter Rhee, medical director of the hospital's trauma and critical care unit, said that Ms. Giffords had been shot once in the head, "through and through," with the bullet going through her brain."
I think Yglesias' Twitter feed (skip past the football stuff) makes it pretty clear he was thinking of Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin and not engaging in High Broderism.
This thread needs a do-over.
File under Snap Judgments Department, of course, but I think the surest sign that this incident will change nothing is that the NYT has a Bai piece titled "A Turning Point in the Discourse, but in Which Direction?"
For what it's worth, the mainstream media's narrative -- at least judging from the Sunday talking head shows -- is that inflammatory (violent?) rhetoric has been employed equally by both liberals and conservatives, and suggesting otherwise is not allowed. It's urged that we all have a kumbaya moment and remember that it is just the case that there are imbalanced people out there, virtual powderkegs just waiting to be ignited, so we must speak nicely to one another.
I'm somewhat curious why everyone (in the mainstream) is so seemingly *afraid* to insist that Tea Party rhetoric in particular has been deeply problematic. I'm not sure it's just a reflection of a felt need for balanced, he said / she said storytelling.
It's almost as though the nation is embarrassed on behalf of certain Tea Party-style gestures.* We've been watching this bullshit for quite a while now, after all, and many have cast a bland eye upon it: political theater.
* I don't put this all on Palin. A Congresswoman from Florida this morning reminded us that at some point during the run-up to the 2010 midterm elections in her state, a Tea Party-backed candidate said that 'if ballots don't work, bullets will.'
164: The New York Times School of How to Analyze Good (and also write headlines). And the lead balancing elements are? The scrubbing form the Internet of both Sarah Palin's target map and some Daily Kos diary by a "BoyBlue" (a clearly troubled person from the content) saying Giffords was "dead to me" after she voted against Pelosi for Minority Leader.
I guess where I find some common ground with bob on this is in thinking back to the Wellstone assassination. Whether or not the rightists sabotaged his plane, they took the opportunity of his death to destroy his political legacy. While Giffords is certainly no Wellstone, it strains credulity to think that the far right will not be successful in spinning this the way it did the Wellstone memorial. Sure, decent people with recoil with horror from that spin, but the Repugs don't care about decent people -- except insofar as they can be cowed into silence and despair.
...the Wellstone assassination. Whether or not the rightists sabotaged his plane....
Normally I love irony, but I'm not in the mood while the blood is still drying.
Um, I wasn't being ironic. Stranger things than a possible sabotage of that plane have happened. But it's also possible it was just bad weather. In any case, we had to suffer through 6 years of Norm Coleman policies as a result.
Also. (One further bit from this morning's talk shows, then I'll quit.)
Dick Armey of FreedomWorks said something odd on Christiane Amanpour's show: that we must attempt to understand this from the appropriate perspective, that of psychology, not of sociology or political science. Because of course this is a question of a demented young man, not suitable for any pop sociology we might drag out of our back pockets.
Hrm. That's ... interesting, Dick. Keep up the good work.
Watching the press try very hard not to draw explicit connections between the rise and institutional support of the Tea Party and their preferred rhetorical style (of the implied violent threat variety) and this particular incident reminds me very much of an abusive relationship. As in, even though this is one of those times when one party is very clearly in the wrong, the other party doesn't say so, because they're just afraid of the inevitably insane reaction. Better just to be conciliatory and hope everyone calms down.
Except, of course, it's fucking not better at all. It's how we got here in the first place.
Because of course this is a question of a demented young man...
The noted psychologist Dr. Armey must be right, 'cause all demented young men live so deep down in Plato's caves there no shadows of the outside on the walls.
And of course, the newspapers and the if-it-bleeds-it-leads TV news have nothing to do with any copycats after they do their thing with any local outrage.
Bah!
...explicit connections between the rise and institutional support of the Tea Party and their preferred rhetorical style (of the implied violent threat variety) and this particular incident....
Violence, political violence, and even right-wing political violence, preceded the Tea Party, and even the Obama era. I don't think all that highly of people who choose to make a living grinding out snap judgments for one paper or network or another (cough any reporter on Twitter cough Jake Tapper cough), but I'd rather read a little more about this particular murderer and his wishes and/or accomplices before I start making hay of this.
The 17 is select-fire - single rounds or bursts of three.
The standard 17 doesn't have select fire. The 17's with select fire I think they call the model 18. But the 18's would be a machine gun under federal regs and not the kind of thing you could just get at the corner gun store.
171: reminds me very much of an abusive relationship.
Not to drag the pop cultural psychology out of my back pocket, but it does seem like that, yes.
I think the immediate reason that Loughner went on a shooting spree is that he's a breaking schizophrenic.
I think the reasons Loughner went on a shooting spree at a Democratic congresswoman's public event are...less immediate. But the normalization of the idea of political violence through rhetoric has consequences. Crazy people do crazy things. Encouraging violent paranoia for political purposes is, at best, grossly irresponsible, because inevitably some of the people who respond to your messaging are not just garden variety assholes but legitimately and dangerously mentally ill. (And, of course, under the right circumstances - given the right prerequisites, which probably include the normalization of political or ethnic or otherwise-one-group-against-another violence - even garden variety assholes become dangerously violent sociopaths.)
I don't think it's possible to parse and quantify responsibility, or determine direct chains of causality. Loughner appears to be a paranoid schizophrenic, and would be a paranoid schizophrenic no matter what. But it can't have helped for his paranoia to be validated by paranoid political messaging, messaging which often suggests that violence is the way to deal with the things that make you feel paranoid.
I think the immediate reason that Loughner went on a shooting spree is that he's a breaking schizophrenic.
I think the reasons Loughner went on a shooting spree at a Democratic congresswoman's public event are...less immediate. But the normalization of the idea of political violence through rhetoric has consequences. Crazy people do crazy things. Encouraging violent paranoia for political purposes is, at best, grossly irresponsible, because inevitably some of the people who respond to your messaging are not just garden variety assholes but legitimately and dangerously mentally ill. (And, of course, under the right circumstances - given the right prerequisites, which probably include the normalization of political or ethnic or otherwise-one-group-against-another violence - even garden variety assholes become dangerously violent sociopaths.)
I don't think it's possible to parse and quantify responsibility, or determine direct chains of causality. Loughner appears to be a paranoid schizophrenic, and would be a paranoid schizophrenic no matter what. But it can't have helped for his paranoia to be validated by paranoid political messaging, messaging which often suggests that violence is the way to deal with the things that make you feel paranoid.
171 strikes me as particularly insightful as well.
173: but I'd rather read a little more about this particular murderer and his wishes and/or accomplices before I start making hay of this.
Agree, but I still can't help noting (and participate by passing them on) various reactions.
1) I was in the room while Howard Kurtz was on, mostly not as bad as I might have guessed (but still a lot of "the totality of the right" vs. Olbermann being a pompous jerk stuff), but then he had on some nutjob talk radio host Malzberg who after mentioning earlier in his piece that Obama once had used some version of "knife to a gunfight" questioned why Obama's statement wasn't an issue when Amy Bishop brought a "gun to a fight" at Alabama-Huntsville.
2) A Frank Conniff tweet: Letting a lunatic relieve his psychosis by purchasing a gun is the only kind of affordable health care the GOP supports.
when Amy Bishop brought a "gun to a fight" at Alabama-Huntsville.
This guy strikes me as more John Hinckley than Amy Bishop.
Meanwhile, a Palin aide says that the cross-hairs on their map weren't gun-sight cross-hairs, and btw, dude's friends said he was a liberal.
Also, "I never went out and blamed Al Gore or any environmentalist for the crazy insane person who went to shoot up the Discovery Channel."
Reports are coming out that Loughner was connected to American Renaissance, a white supremacy group, active in Arizona because of the immigration issue. It's noted that Giffords was, depite the name and hair, the highest ranking Jewish woman in the US Government.
And there's another guy involved. The police released a picture.
This isn't a case of a lone nut. It's political through and through.
Except the American Renaissance "memo" has been walked back. The link was supposedly based on his YouTube channel which everyone has seen, so I'm not sure how the link was made. And the "another guy" thing has been walked back as well.
Those are currently the 2d and 3d stories in the left hand column at TPM right now.
TPM is lovable, but they do go on with the breaking news! Breaking news! bit. It's generally best to wait and see what the actual story winds up being.
Well, right. But that goes both ways. Jumping on entirely unsourced rumors that seem to help "our cause" and proclaiming empirically that this was a right-wing hit at this stage of the game makes everyone sound like a photonegative P@mel@ fucking Gell@r.
"The second person sought in connection with the Giffords shooting "turned out to be a cab driver who went into the Safeway with [Jared Loughner] because he needed change to pay for the cab."
My tiny consolation is that Matt Bai's "both sides" claim seems rather half-hearted - he gives three paragraphs to worrying statements and ads from actual Republican politicians, and only one short paragraph waving vaguely at unattributed comparisons of Bush to Hitler and at the Truthers. Maybe we're getting closer to a media realignment.
Was anyone credible seriously suggesting that this was a right wing hit? Like, a hit in the sense of an assassination planned and organized by an active conspiracy? Seriously?
I ask because very quickly everyone had access to his youtube channel. And if you watched those videos, it was really, really clear that the kid was really, really ill.
191: I was more or less uncharitably characterizing comment 184.
But, say, my FB feed is filled with PROOF SHOOTER HAD TIES TO RIGHT WING TEA PARTY GROUUUUUUP!!!! which is in fact false (as I type this), and not even what the article to which the poster links says and things like people blasting Sarah Palin for her responsibility because of her eliminationist rhetoric (I have less of a problem here, depending) but then going on to talk merrily about how, though, if you're going to kill democrats, Giffords is a good one to kill because she's a blue dog, and, hey who else should be killed?! And it is all such a bunch of obnoxious posturing and recapitulation of Right-Wing Internet Tough Guys™ that it is making me fucking cranky.
I think crankiness is a more than reasonable response to what's described in 193.
Honestly, one of the biggest reasons I abandoned FB, besides the general creepiness and privacy concerns, was that it made it so painfully clear that most of the people I knew were, when not consciously editing, evaluating, and distilling their thoughts, really fucking inane. And boring. And most of them came off as kind of dumb, too.
It was depressing.
182- I'm surprised they went with "It's a surveyor's symbol." I think "We were playing America Tic-tac-toe and accidentally went on the same spaces a few times" is more believable.
I've seen claims that blaming it on the right will incite violence against conservatives, and I've seen claims that the shooter was actually a liberal (he liked To Kill a Mockinbird!), although I haven't yet seen a claim that he was a liberal who shot a Democrat to make the tea party and the second amendment look bad. I'm sure the latter claim has been made, just haven't found it yet.
195: Yeah, that was kind of amazing, since Palin's twitter feed is rife with her referring to the symbol as a "bullseye," etc. Just say you're sorry! Sheesh. OK, fine, her narcissism won't allow for that -- just don't say anything, especially not an obvious and easily refuted lie.
193 is appalling. Get better friends, oudemia.
Which is ironic since they really aren't bullseyes, which are concentric circles, not crosshairs in a circle.
Do they really think anyone is going to fall for "It was simply cross-hairs like you'd see on maps"? Oh yeah, those crosshairs. The ones you see on maps. Wait, what?
Some people say they were crosshairs like you'd see in a rifle scope. Others say they were surveyors symbols used to identify locations on a map. Either way, the true intent is difficult to determine with any certainty.
197: I scolded them in full sanctimonious twat mode -- not my finest hour -- including reference to the dead 9yo. One of the people involved is a familiar type -- too serious to vote, jumps on every conspiracy theory, doesn't do much but sit his fat ass on a couch, but wishes not infrequently for the bloodshed of others.
200: IMO they're 'scope crosshairs drawn by someone who has never looked through a 'scope and found that symbol in their graphics package collection. The words the right has been using for quite some time has had very little to do with surveying and lots to do with removal.
he liked To Kill a Mockinbird!
Wow. We get To Kill a Mockingbird now? Cool, I guess?
And it is all such a bunch of obnoxious posturing and recapitulation of Right-Wing Internet Tough Guys™ that it is making me fucking cranky.
That's my line, sister.
It would be nice if the violent talk could be toned down. "Dont retreat. Reload." and the rest of it.
Clearly, the kid was having serious mental issues.
Ug.
I'm having sort of a strange response to all of this. Of course it's terrible, and I've read various people saying that we need to moderate the tone of political rhetoric in this country. But I actually think this is the wrong message, or at least it leaves out an important point, which is that we should not be afraid of political violence. I'm not saying we should all go out and buy guns; I don't think violence is a good tool for liberals to use. I am disgusted by the Palin crosshairs thing. But I think that begging the opposition to take things down a notch is both unlikely to work, and misses the point, that there are real issues at stake (like health care reform, seriously, I'm not joking) that are, in fact, worth risking one's life for.
206: But I think that begging the opposition to take things down a notch is both unlikely to work, and misses the point, that there are real issues at stake (like health care reform, seriously, I'm not joking) that are, in fact, worth risking one's life for.
I'm in agreement. There's a perspective from which one might say that the violent rhetoric is an accurate reflection of the passions at play stakes. I'm not sure how to introduce that message to the dialogue at large; there are certainly numerous commentators who have been pointing out that lives are already at stake in, say, health care reform. Or in radical income inequality. Has their message sunk in?
Cross-thread linkage: if we accept the view of conservative stances toward authority according to which there simply are (and should be) winners and losers, then conservatives are never going to give a shit, ultimately, about the losers.
Cf. this excellent comment by Evan from the other thread:
So, for example, if they find themselves in a world in which health insurance is a privilege that only certain people get to have, that's good, because it means that someone is winning and someone is losing. Then liberals come along and try to change the world so that everybody gets access to health care, and poof, there's one less way to tell the difference between a winner and a loser. Authoritarian-minded people find this inherently disturbing.
There's a perspective from which one might say that the violent rhetoric is an accurate reflection of the passions at play stakes.
This gets it exactly crazy. Violent rhetoric is a method of intimidation and domination. The right wing is not employing it because they are actually in any physical danger. People who need health care may be in physical danger; that's not where the rhetoric comes from.
Don't you think that Tea Partiers feel they're in mortal danger from the, erm, people who don't speak English well (the coloreds, let's say)?
The right wing is not employing it because they are actually in any physical danger.
Easy for you to say. You're not an unwanted zygote, and you probably don't care that Obama is on the verge of imposing Sharia and Communism.
Not really, I think the Tea Partiers feel threatened in a what's-happening-to-my-country way, not in a is-one-of-my-constituents-going-to-shoot-me-in-the-head way.
They feel threatened in a people-are-taking-my-money way, and the people they've identified as doing so are the downtrodden (who are confusedly identified with people of color and ethnics in general), along with their champions.
Oh, and they do think these people might shoot them in the head. Black people and Muslims and Mexicans.
Oh, and they do think these people might shoot them in the head. Black people and Muslims and Mexicans.
That's if they go into the wrong neighborhood. Also, it is notable that we are not talking about violent rhetoric against the groups you mentioned. We are talking bout violent rhetoric against Democrats.
192: My problem with the dominant narrative is I don't see the connections: the guy, clearly suffering from some kind of breakdown, gets thrown out of school in September; as a result of seeing Palin ads in October buys a gun in November and in January takes a cab to the Safeway where he shoots not only a Congresswoman, but most of the people around her. Insanity is being asked to do a lot of work here.
The advantage with conspiracy theories is that the motivations are much clearer. donaquixote at 191 suggests that a conspiracy theory is, by its very nature, unlikely. I'd respond that, if there were some evidence to support it, a theory that some small group of Arizona extremists plotted to kill a couple of prominent anti-anti-immigrant figures (to encourage the others) and used a naive, half-crazy, marginal youngster to actually carry out the hit would make a lot more sense than the dominant narrative. I don't even know how crazy the hitman is: he may be mad north north west, but when the wind is southerly he knows his Miranda rights.
That the second man turns out to be a cabbie detracts from the conspiracy theory, of course.
Still, while it's good that this is being used to attack Palin, politics not being beanbag and all, it's very hard for me to understand how Palin's attack ad combined with Loughner's psychotic break to create this particular timeline.
210- I resent your assumption that I might not be, at this very minute, subject to review by death panel.
I think when you are scared about your own life, and your own prospects, and you aren't so good with change, it feels good to blame other people. It feels good to be angry, because you feel like you are doing something. Like you have some control.
But I think that white-knuckling a world view that demonizes Other people just so you can feel like you understand your disturbingly mutable world and have some influence over it is really very much not the same as fighting for specific policy initiatives, like health care reform.
Health care is an actual problem. People's lives are ruined because they don't have it. People die. They go bankrupt.
"Immigration" and "socialism" have not, as far as I'm aware, been responsible for any deaths so far.
That is to say, at some point what people "feel" really isn't remotely valid, and it helps no one to pretend that it is. These people - the right wing, the heads of the Tea Parties, the people profiting from this - should be mocked into irrelevance. But I don't think we can do that unless the base need that they address -- the inability to deal with fear, with insecurity, with change and uncertainty -- are addressed.
I see someone in the Tea Party and I think: if I ever get trapped in an elevator, it's gonna be you. You're gonna be the one to fucking lose it. We're gonna be stuck there for 12 hours because you are going to completely lose your shit and try to climb out a vent or something and get stuck, and it's going to be your screaming that sets everyone else off.
Still, while it's good that this is being used to attack Palin, politics not being beanbag and all, it's very hard for me to understand how Palin's attack ad combined with Loughner's psychotic break to create this particular timeline.
I think the argument is not that there's a direct, Palin-said-reload-so-I-reloaded link, but that instead there was a lot of bullshit flung around, which made this attack seem sensible to someone.
213: Also, it is notable that we are not talking about violent rhetoric against the groups you mentioned. We are talking bout violent rhetoric against Democrats.
Democrats champion the redistribution of wealth and the rights of the minority.
Also, should be noted a lot of the anti-Palin stuff isn't even asserting there's a link, it's just noting that Palin's use of the rhetoric of death and violence is fucking disgusting, and that's a thought that's really resonating right now. And I can't say I feel sorry at all for her.
215: As you know, the phrase "death panels" isn't a parody; those are Palin's words, and they weren't said in a fit of pique, or in an ill-considered moment. She's never retracted that language, and that language continues to have a directly observable political impact.
Sophisticated, reality-Based folks have a hard time grappling with deep nuttiness, which is one reason the U.S. has become so deeply nutty. Loughner, according to the Reality-Based, isn't like Palin because Loughner is crazy. I don't buy it.
218- Pace Bob.
Parsimon, I don't think I can make my point any better than YK in 211 and donaquixote's 216.
220- PF, I agree. I'm saying even when Tea Partiers convince themselves and really believe in the deep nuttiness, it's something manufactured and self-serving. It's an aggrandized victimization mythology.
I would have preferred that everyone had STFU about the Palin stuff in the immediate aftermath but gotten to it in time. But clearly unpossible. However, the "not beanbag" comment is very relevant; per Keir, I suspect there is not any real link, but if you've throw around that kind of stupid, suggestive and specifically directed rhetoric and something like this happens to one of the targets, tough shit. Just like the poor sap with the inapt Daily Kos diary (but who at least had the decency to write a new diary 'My Apologies to This Site, The Victims, and Rep. Gabrielle Giffords"-- although it's still a bit strident and unhinged. It's the digging in and the BS about surveyor's symbols and trying to make it one more chapter in your personal victimization narrative that reveal your true character.
216
"Immigration" and "socialism" have not, as far as I'm aware, been responsible for any deaths so far.
223: Well below your usual standards, James. Well below. I mean really fucking pathetic.
You seem to have messed up that link, James. The news story I got talked about a drunk driving fatality.
221: I've already disagreed with, or rather shifted the emphasis of, YK's 211, and 216 meanders. I understand where 208 is coming from.
223 wasn't a terrible, ill-judged joke? Honestly?
Also, "meandering" in a blog thread doesn't seem to be such a cardinal sin. Also doesn't invalidate the central point: treating "feelings" as valid when they have no basis in reality doesn't help. It just validates crazy. We've been validating crazy for a long time. Probably we should stop.
227.last: But that would be crazy!
Now, does anyone think James feels threatened by an outbreak of drunk driving?
229
Now, does anyone think James feels threatened by an outbreak of drunk driving?
Not particularly but judging by the coverage in my local newspaper about half of the most lurid crimes in Westchester are committed by illegal immigrants. And I don't feel particularly threatened by the lack of universal health insurance either which was the point of comparison.
judging by the coverage in my local newspaper
Having avoided this horrible thread I'm at a loss to think of a way that could possibly be a good idea.
I think the Tea Party folks' problems are a lot worse than 216 would suggest. It's not just an "inability to deal with fear, with insecurity, with change and uncertainty," although that's definitely part of it, but that is something we could talk our way through. It's a whole alternate reality, where Saddam Hussein had WMD's, Obama is destroying the Constitution, etc. It's crazy, yes, but it also has a surprising degree of internal consistency... high quality narrative, I tell you.
231
Having avoided this horrible thread I'm at a loss to think of a way that could possibly be a good idea.
Maybe not but given that my local newspaper has run numerous articles in the last few years about illegal immigrants killing people and none (that I recall at least) about lack of health insurance killing people the contention in 216 that health care is an actual problem while illegal immigration isn't may not be universally accepted.
about half of the most lurid crimes in Westchester are committed by illegal immigrants.
Obviously, if illegal immigrants are deprived of health care they'll quit killing James' neighbors. This is a net plus (for James).
James, are you married? Do you have a partner? Or any friends? Because, you know, reading you comments here and, I confess, looking at your blog, I just sort of get the impression that you don't really "do" people well. Which is exactly why I believe that illegal immigrants must be prevented from killing your neighbors. What social life you have depends on it.
I don't use the word lightly, but now she's just being a bitch (or dick if that's too sexist for you.) Seriously, who fucking does that, much less a supposed national politician?
Oh, wait, I see that's a post from last year (the March thing should have tipped me off.) Still pretty obnoxious, although not as bad as if she had just posted it today.
You can't blame anyone for his being crazy, but his intellectual diet does have an influence on what he ends up being crazy about. People with his particular disease used to think they were Napoleon, when he was in the news all the time either as world-conquering power or as poor, tragic genius locked up on a tiny island by the Brits (both themes having an obvious appeal to someone with delusions of grandeur who everyone else thinks is a nut). Now he's just a name in the history book, you won't find so many Napoleons in the psychiatric ward.
Similarly, the Air Loom guy thought he was being persecuted by scientists with a machine because he went mad in the late 18th century and everyone was talking about science and technology and inventions suddenly. Had he flipped earlier, he might have thought a witch had cast a spell on him, or that he was having visions of God.
I don't quite see the relevance of bimetallism to his interior landscape, but then, this is rather my point. Psychopathology is generic, latent content is specific to the individual, manifest content is just whatever unused memetic junk is lying around your brain when you go to sleep.
So yes, blame Palin.
There's a natural impulse among decent people not to "politicize" tragedy, even when we're talking about political assassination. I'd be interested to know, though, whether Sharon Angle regards Loughner as having chosen the correct Second Amendment remedy - and if not, what Second Amendment remedies she regards as appropriate. I want to know this about Palin, too.
I'm guessing they won't be asked, though.
"The right controls every major media organ, and is able to get pluralities or majorities of Americans to believe things which simply aren't true"
"The political class works for the corporate class, not the other way around" ...
"It is useful to the corporate class for the political class to live in fear, however."
Matt Taibbi ...on Speaker Boehner, corporate stooge, and the pressures he is feeling from new Tea Party congresspersons.
I am trying to work out the model whereby corporations control politicians both with money (campaign contributions;lifestyle;parachutes) and by financing populist thuggery. It looks a little dangerous, not physically but financially unless the media and discourse control is near total. It is. Beck can stop them, but I think he can aim them.
Part of my analysis has been that right wing violence generates centrist repression, especially of the left. Have we ever seen a purge of the Right like the Palmer raids or McCarthy era? What will happen is that the Right will not lose their guns, but the left will lose, for instance, internet anonymity.
The destruction of the middle class entitlements and austerity is the next step on the corporate agenda, and I have to look at Europe: Latvia, Greece, Ireland to see if right populist violence can help that project.
If nothing else, it makes populism unattractive and unavailable to the left.
Right-populism controlled by corporations should tell everybody we are in a new ballgame and fascism, as commonly understood, is no longer on the table. Hitler used Roehm, and later Heydrich to control the corporations.
Have we ever seen a purge of the Right like the Palmer raids or McCarthy era?
Well, the Right seems to think that was Waco etc. Obviously silly, but there you go.
242. If the American Right wants to identify with "David Koresh", they've got worse problems than I realised. That the siege was mismanaged doesn't alter the fact that "Koresh" was Jim Jones without the social conscience.
I'd say the main difference between Ruby Ridge, Waco, various crackdowns on the Klan, Hutaree sting operation, etc. and Palmer Raids, McCarthy era, COINTELPRO, is that in the former cases, it's usually law enforcement working more-or-less independently of political considerations. (Not that there's no politics, but it's basically law enforcement calling the shots). But when it comes to crackdowns on left-wing activism, there's almost always significant political pressure, even if law enforcement isn't opposed to it on principle. That's why the crackdowns on the right tend to be very specific and by-the-book, whereas the crackdowns on the left are general and catch-as-catch-can.
243: Well, their support is usually couched in terms of "this was a horrible abuse of federal government power" rather than "David Koresh could have deciphered the seventh seal if only he'd had enough time!" With Ruby Ridge, it's similar, although there's probably more identification with Randy Weaver since he was living the dream and all.
That's why you don't see people on the hard left rejoicing in those cases as much as you might expect. We're not going to shed any tears for dead Nazis, you understand, but we're cognizant of the fact that those aspects of state power are used against us about 100 times as often as they are used against our counterparts on the other side.
244: were crackdowns on the Klan really done independently of political considerations?
David Koresh could have deciphered the seventh seal if only he'd had enough time!
Seals: The Puzzling Pinnipeds Perturb Pedo Perfidious Preacher.
247: glad to hear it (in the sense that the police were willing to go after them without needing to be prodded).
Get a load of this! Can you Adam and Eve it?
From 251:
Sarah Palin, barely coherent as usual, but you always have to look what is barely not said, what might be in her mind.
"Anyone" = SP
Our children will not have peace if politicos just capitalize on this to succeed in portraying anyone as inciting terror and violence.
Look like a threat to me.
Er, what? Politicos might succeed in portraying me as inciting violence? Thanks for the kind thoughts, Bob-o.
Not to imply that their ridiculous antics are even noteworthy these days, but has anyone mentioned that Westboro Baptist Church (the Fred Phelps organization) plans to picket the funeral of the 9-year-old girl who was killed in the shooting?
Clearly they are a cult at this point, and completely divorced from the real world.
255. But the distress they will cause to the child's parents makes it hard to ignore them. Could people emulate the Muslims of Alexandria and create a cordon sanitaire?
Clearly they are a cult at this point, and completely divorced from the real world.
Nope, not a cult and not divorced from reality. Nearly the entire "church" is attorneys and they are running a litigation-based con operation. http://kanewj.com/wbc/
I'm interested in 257, but I can't read the link (blocked at work as "malware"?), and I'm not having much luck with search engine queries. What's the gist of the con operation?
re: 258
Provoking individuals or the state authorities into violating their rights and the suing.
258: Apo's link claims the Phelps family doesn't believe what they claim they believe but are merely making people mad and then suing them to reap the proceeds. I don't know about the not believing side of things, based on what Fred's children have said and Lee's memories of what he was like when the church was young, but the suing everybody part is real enough.
I've told the story here, right, about Lee driving her aged grandmother past a park where the G/D HATES F/GS signs, then new, were on full display and the old lady sucking her teeth and saying, "Hmm, well, I don't know what a fags is, but I sure can't believe God would do that!"
258: they act obnoxiously in the hope that someone will infringe their civil rights and/or punch one of them, at which point they sue.
This they have in fact done, successfully, in the 1990s, but apparently not since. Since then they've been sued themselves for defamation - Snyder v. Phelps, currently before the Supreme Court. They apparently spend about $200k a year on travel costs.
This they have in fact done, successfully, in the 1990s, but apparently not since. Since then they've been sued themselves for defamation - Snyder v. Phelps, currently before the Supreme Court. They apparently spend about $200k a year on travel costs.
In their position I would rethink my business model on that basis. Unless I actually did believe the crap I was spewing.
That doesn't sound like much of a scam to me; I have a hard time believing they could even recoup all their costs. (As 261 seems to hint.) They sound more like true believers who just happen also to be litigation-happy.
(I mean, if it really were just a cynical scam, couldn't a big group of lawyers figure out some better way to make money?)
262: Yes, I don't buy it really. If your entire family are lawyers (as the Phelpses apparently are) surely you could be making more money by simply setting up a law firm than by doing this sort of thing? I think it's a combination of hate and wanting to be famous.
266 to 263 (referring to 262), not to 265.
267: I didn't follow that at all but I feel very pwned.
They sound more like true believers
In what? That God calls them to run a highly organized, media-savvy campaign of picketing the funerals of America's most sympathetic recently deceased possible in a manner that is maximally offensive while staying technically legal? Come on, you know they don't believe what they're shouting because it's patently absurd.
Apo, it's patently absurd if you're entirely rational. but, as we've just seen, there are people who believe that the United States government controls their minds through punctuation. Absurdity is never a reason to suppose that people don't believe something.
Since I'm telling stories about the place, I'll add that the WBC picketed Lee's brother's (straight) wedding because, as a musician, he had gay friends. That's probably even worse than the grisly anti-abortion protest outside my high school graduation.
I'm horrified by the Phelps family, but I've heard that contrary to what I might expect, at least some of the clan do a good job as advocates for indigent clients, including prisoners. When we were trying to find someone who'd work with Lee's half-sister on her attempt to get custody of her daughter back, we kept being referred to them and just couldn't do it, regardless of whether they would have been able to help her.
269: gets them plenty of free airtime though. They've got a message to get out, and they're being very successful.
That God calls them to run a highly organized, media-savvy campaign of picketing the funerals of America's most sympathetic recently deceased possible in a manner that is maximally offensive while staying technically legal?
Well, I admit that sounds crazy. But it also sounds crazy to think they're deliberately making themselves into one of most despised groups in the country in a purely cynical effort to make money suing people, despite the fact that they presumably have other, more socially acceptable ways of earning incomes, not to mention the fact that they're losing quite a bit of money on the whole operation and have been for years. So, either way, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that they're crazy. The question is: is their crazy behavior more plausibly that of cultist religious fanatics, or just incompetent con artists? The first seems more likely to me.
The question is: is their crazy behavior more plausibly that of cultist religious fanatics, or just incompetent con artists?
Why choose?
255. But the distress they will cause to the child's parents makes it hard to ignore them. Could people emulate the Muslims of Alexandria and create a cordon sanitaire?
Something of the kind is planned: http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html
256: That's what happened at Matthew Shepard's funeral. Folks dressed as angels with big wings stood in front of the WBC. At a recent military funeral, folks from all over got up super early and took up all the most visible street space, giving the WBC nowhere particularly near or conspicuous to stand.