Re: It's not like we're short on reasons to hate on her

1

I'm kind of with you that it's not the awfullest comparison out there. Still, reasons to gripe: (a) get over yourself, you're not a persecuted minority being abused and made into pariahs, you're a powerful political faction. If there were any sense in which I owned the oppression of medieval Jews, I'd be annoyed on their behalf, and (b) it's a poor analogy structurally. "Blood libel" refers to a claim that a group of people are secretly doing something unambiguously evil. People blaming Tea Party/Palin types for the assassination are blaming them for publicly saying stuff which the Palin types are claiming isn't evil at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:14 PM
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she's not able to moderate her tone even now. and her tone is pretty much what people are blaming her for -- using inflammatory and violent rhetoric, trying to influence thinking that way. i guess this time, it's all about blaming her critics to cover her sorry ass. tres presidential.


Posted by: kathy a. | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:19 PM
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Ah. So if you commit blood libel, you're akin to the Jews, not the gossipers.

Ok, she's using the phrase wrong. New thread!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:19 PM
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"publicly saying stuff which the Palin types are claiming isn't evil at all."

I don't think it is at all evil to say one is targeting one's political opponents. Political imagery, sports imagery and war imagery all conflate and in only one of those endeavors is the actually goal to kill the other guys. Or rather, to end their will to fight back, which may entail killing them.


Posted by: Maj. Gen. Carl von Clausewitz | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:23 PM
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But you're kind of right that what really bothers me about it is nitpicky. If you abstract all the way out to "Blood libel was a claim that one set of people was responsible for the deaths of another, and you're saying that people who talk like me are responsible for the deaths of the people who got killed in Arizona, so that's blood libel," it's not a totally fundamentally wrong use of the term. Just far enough off to be really really irritating.

What she's saying by using the term, I think she's completely wrong about, but the idiom isn't the big problem.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:24 PM
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I don't think it is at all evil to say one is targeting one's political opponents.

I think there's a continuum, and there's some language and imagery that's a really bad idea. I don't think Palin's crosshairs on a map are all that terrible in isolation. Crosshairs on pictures of people, on the other hand, I'd find really disturbing. And so forth and so on.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:26 PM
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Ah. So if you commit blood libel, you're akin to the Jews, not the gossipers.

What? No, if you put babies' blood in your matzoh, you're akin the Jews. That's the issue.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:28 PM
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Is there anything else we can pin on Sarah Palin, other than controlling this guy's mind and enforcing the tyranny of grammar? Personally I blame it on the silent h, which hovers over the a, a silent centurion standing guard and protecting it from the depredations of the p. Is it any wonder that it Sarah spells haras in reverse? Haras harridan sarah palindrome? Again and again.


Posted by: bjk | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:28 PM
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7: I think, technically, you can go ahead and use all the pagan baby blood you want.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:30 PM
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I think there's a continuum, and there's some language and imagery that's a really bad idea. I don't think Palin's crosshairs on a map are all that terrible in isolation. Crosshairs on pictures of people, on the other hand, I'd find really disturbing. And so forth and so on.

I mostly agree with this but I feel like that's outweighed by the facts that

(a) If you're handed a gift in politics take it, and I think that the Palin map is, at least potentially, a gift.

(b) There's a lot more politically motivated violence from the right than the left, so using the event and the map as an opportunity to talk about that violence is entirely appropriate even if the map isn't beyond the pale, in and of itself.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:32 PM
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God I can still remember how awful peanut butter and jelly on matzoh was. Add in a faint taste of human blood and it would have been downright inedible.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:35 PM
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There's a lot more politically motivated violence from the right than the left

This is crap, unless one has some nonstandard definitions of right and left. Would you like to host the next G8 meeting in your living room?


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:38 PM
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This is crap, unless one has some nonstandard definitions of right and left. Would you like to host the next G8 meeting in your living room?

Despite the presence of Gswift here, I really don't think overly aggressive policemen are examples of the left.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:41 PM
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Not being a Jew, I never head of the term "blood libel" associated with Jews before the past few days. The whole baby blood in matzoth thing is brand new to me.

I'm guessing Sarah Palin had no idea about this either. I don't think that makes her more ignorant than probably 80% of the goyish population.

I can't buy that she's a bad person because, out of ignorance, she stepped on the wrong code word. She is a bad person for much bigger and more substantive reasons.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:42 PM
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11 is hilarious, but does not match my experience.

PB & J is fine on matzoh, but it is very difficult to spread peanut butter on matzoh.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:44 PM
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14: Really? This is what "blood libel" means. It's very possible for someone to have never heard of the phrase, but it's difficult to imagine someone actually using it without knowing what it means. It might be new to you, but that means you wouldn't have used it, right?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:45 PM
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Would you like to host the next G8 meeting in your living room?

Absolutely! So much more convenient for the rotten-tomato tossing!



Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:46 PM
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16: I believe the current reigning theory is that she got the phrase from a WSJ editorial by the one and only Glenn Reynolds aka instapundit.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:48 PM
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I give her credit for achieving a near-perfect balance of ignorance and mendacity. That she used "blood libel" in portraying herself as a victim in the context of an attack on a Jewish politician is just exquisite icing on the cake.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:49 PM
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11, 15: Maybe one of you could answer my related question. Those jars with the smooshed fish things floating in murky liquid. Good or not?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:49 PM
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20: Before I became a stinkin' vegetarian I always enjoyed gefilte fish. I didn't realize many other people considered it something weird and disgusting until I was an adult.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:52 PM
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Despite the presence of Gswift here, I really don't think overly aggressive policemen are examples of the left.

Speaking of, the most recent issue of the LRB includes a number of eloquent descriptions of people's experiences being involved in the UK Student Protests.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:53 PM
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16: Really? This is what "blood libel" means.

I'd heard the phrase before, but assumed it had a much broader meaning. I can't say I've ever used the phrase in that context, but thats mostly for lack of having a reason to. I can see where Palin thought she had cause to use the phrase, given that there has been blood, and she feels she has been libeled.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:53 PM
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peep preempted

The Glenn Reynolds piece is here.

easser, I don't think Palin does as much in the way of copy editing or fact checking as you might assume.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:55 PM
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21: Well, they look a bit funny in the jar if you've never seen one before. At the grocery by my house, it is kind of like McRib in that it is only available for a limited time. It is kind of unlike the McRib in terms of kosherness (and probably heart-disease causing).


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:57 PM
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Stupid slippery a.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:57 PM
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I do have the impression that there's a lot of very violent language and imagery coming from the right these days, in the context of which Palin's map is disturbing. Like, the commercial filmed by Gifford's opponent where he's holding a rifle adds something to Palin's map if you read them together.

But I don't consume enough right wing media to have a fair impression of how bad it is.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 1:58 PM
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To respond more seriously to #12, when a G8 meeting actually occurs in your city, you find out what it's like. There are demonstrators marching up and down certain streets in a well-planned way. There are a few dozen more serious demonstrators who commit minor property damage but have no interest in any violence against human beings. In Pittsburgh the property damage, aside from some posters and spray paint, was literally one guy who spent about ten minutes breaking windows. I think two of the businesses whose windows were broken were locally owned, and other protestors put a barrage of apologetic notes on said windows. There were a few garbage cans and mailboxes knocked over, but not as many as after the Steelers won the Super Bowl.

Aside from the actual protestors, there are hordes of curious on-lookers, who are ordered around by tens of millions of man-hours of extra police, leading to chaos when nobody knows what the police are telling them to do. The police get mad when the word "disperse" is taken to mean "disperse" rather than "stay there so we can keep an eye on you, but somehow become a smaller crowd". Then the tear gas comes out.

As for "political violence" if you mean anti-government political violence, there's virtually none of any kind from the right as well as the left, so you have a point. What there is is massive amounts of violent right-wing political rhetoric, at least in the media accessible to the average person, and no violent left-wing political rhetoric.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:00 PM
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Like, the commercial filmed by Gifford's opponent where he's holding a rifle...

That is common enough around here, as long as the guy is wearing folksy clothes and in the woods. That guy who just won the Senate race in West Virginia (Democrat) had the commercial where he shot the climate bill.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:03 PM
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20: Shouldn't this question be coming from urple?


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:04 PM
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In Pittsburgh the property damage, aside from some posters and spray paint, was literally one guy who spent about ten minutes breaking windows.

And that was the G-20. Which is 2.5 times of a bigger deal. (Actually, I think there was some other guy who broke a few windows on Baum in addition to the Craig Street guy you are talking about.)


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:06 PM
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29: It's all context. In a hunting context, intended to convey "I'm a good old boy who hunts", nothing wrong with it. I'll have to look at the ad I'm thinking of again -- it didn't read to me as hunting, but of course I was looking at it after the shootings.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:07 PM
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the commercial filmed by Gifford's opponent where he's holding a rifle

Which could also be interpreted as trying to highlight his combat experience. Waving the bloody shirt, as it were.

FWIW I think Palin will use any and all attempts to demonize her to show she is a victim of unfair liberal bias. If she is smart, or rather, cunning (bad word choice?) she will never run for office again, but remain fundraiser/ kingmaker.


Posted by: Tasseled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:07 PM
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Question: Would Palin using "Waving the Bloody Shirt" have been more appropriate or not, more offensive than "blood libel" or not? Explain why.

2) Nobody, but nobody wants no stinkin violent revolution evah. Farley at LGM is shocked and disappointed in his fellow citizens.

Apparently everybody, all sides, ideologies and factions, think they can achieve their aims at the ballot box, or, that their worst and most dangerous enemies will not gain dominance. Can this be true? What does it mean?


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:07 PM
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The Craig Street/Forbes Ave. guy.

You are right, I forgot about the broken car dealership windows. But we can all agree, those are just too tempting not to break, right?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:08 PM
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There really have been several notable examples of right-wing political violence in the past couple years, and I'm not counting the attack on Giffords. Tom Scocca has been good on this here and here.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:09 PM
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35: Maybe, but Oakland did certainly look much worse after the Super Bowl.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:10 PM
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I'd never heard the phrase "blood libel" before today. I assumed Palin had been watching too much Harry Potter - sounds like something Bellatrix would say.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:10 PM
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As for "political violence" if you mean anti-government political violence, there's virtually none of any kind from the right as well as the left, so you have a point.

When I made my original comment I was thinking mostly of the threats/violence directed at abortion providers.

(I see, upon googling, that a 2008 study found that only 13% of counties have somebody who will perform abortions.)


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:16 PM
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Neiwert posted a list of right-wing violent incidents. Starts July 2008. Not mere threats, but most involve guns going bang and people falling down, and are clearly political.

If you were to include all rightwingers shooting people, ya know, because there are conservative values about wives and gays and revnoors and just to see 'em die that are not explicitly political, I spect the list could be awesome.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:21 PM
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Gefilte fish is one of those things in life that looks and sounds awful because it is awful. Nobody even bothered to come up with a foodie euphemism for it (quenelles du poisson qui mange garbage...in brine) because you'd eventually have to eat it and find out it is bland, gelatinous, crapfish.

I don't think that makes her more ignorant than probably 80% of the goyish population.

Well no, but if you are a politician whose words are heard by millions of people, it would behoove you to know that these words refer quite explicitly to rhetoric that was used to incite ethnic violence. It's not the worst thing anyone ever said, and the political culture of seizing on any misbegotten phrase is in many ways kind of a disastrous development, but Palin is the worst of the worst and NickS has it right: if you're handed a gift, take it.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:23 PM
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41.1: But, I've always liked fish with a shelf-life. I eat sardines, canned tuna, etc.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:26 PM
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Well no, but if you are a politician whose words are heard by millions of people, it would behoove you to know that these words refer quite explicitly to rhetoric that was used to incite ethnic violence.

This is Sarah Palin we are talking about. It would behoove her to know the names of a couple of magazines.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:27 PM
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if you're handed a gift, take it.

THAT'S WHAT *I* KEEP TELLING EVERYONE!!!!


Posted by: OPINIONATED GREEK | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:27 PM
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Unhappy hippies break shit and get in the way. For every other definition of political violence, it's a conservative phenomenon. It's hard to believe otherwise accidentally.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:28 PM
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Palin is the worst of the worst and NickS has it right: if you're handed a gift, take it

I'm not sure I understand how this is a gift? Is there anyone who liked Palin before, but might be uncertain about her now? Is it even an effective line of attack? ("Palin used a poor analogy to compare herself to a persecuted minority! How can we trust her with our government?")

I mean, honest to god, does this even crack the top 5 stupidest or most inappropriate things she's said in public? I don't think so.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:28 PM
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if you're handed a gift, take it.

I am NOT taking that gefilte fish off your hands.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:28 PM
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Shouldn't this question be coming from urple?

Enough with the food libel!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:30 PM
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Looks like there is a Wikipedia fight over this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_(U.S._political_term)


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:31 PM
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I like Swedish fish. They're...the best! (The best after you guys on my list of the best things, that is.)


Posted by: Pauly Shore | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:32 PM
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49: That's so cute how they can write about things that happened in the last three days as settled linguistic history.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:37 PM
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What is this M/tch guy smoking?
(bud libel)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:39 PM
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Smearcase sure does frown a lot.
(brood libel)


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:44 PM
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53: You would too if you had an internet connection as slow as his.
(baud libel)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:45 PM
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Kiwis caused the recent trouble in Australlia
(flood libel)


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:46 PM
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Skwewy rabbits
(Fudd libel)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:49 PM
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Some of these just don't work as jokes.

(dud libel)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:52 PM
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To those who think Palin inadvertently used the term blood libel: The Stupidity Defense goes only so far. I await her apology now that she's been schooled in the history of that term, and the loathsomeness of invoking it in the context of a Jewish

To those who think Palin's crosshair weren't really intended to suggest violence, I await her de-endorsement of Sharon Angle, who explicitly raised the possibility of armed violence against her political enemies. I also await her response to Rep. Giffords, who long ago explained the relationship between that specific piece of violent imagery with violence.

Every now and then, Republican dog-whistling crosses a line that can't be denied. Sure, maybe you can fly a Confederate flag and not be a racist. I guess. But if you endorse a candidate who calls for "Second Amendment remedies" and somebody gets shot, you've really blown to hell any hope of deniability.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:52 PM
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That was me.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:53 PM
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The Stupidity Defense goes only so far

See 43. It goes a pretty damn long way.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 2:55 PM
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"Lizardbreath" is a horrible thing to call oneself.
(pseud libel)


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:00 PM
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But if you endorse a candidate who calls for "Second Amendment remedies" and somebody gets shot, you've really blown to hell any hope of deniability.

The absolute nuttiness of the shooter really complicates this. If we were talking about someone who was 'crazy' in the sense of 'what kind of a lunatic actually shoots people because he disagrees with them politically', like the guy who shot up a Unitarian church a couple years ago after writing all kinds of stuff about killing liberals, that would be easier to blame on right-wing rhetoric.

But this guy... violent rhetoric is bad, and can certainly have the effect of inciting unstable people to violence. But he wasn't following a Tea Party script, he was really out in space somewhere.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:02 PM
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58.1 was supposed to end with "Jewish shooting victim."


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:03 PM
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That horse doesn't seem likely to pass on good genes.

(Stud libel.)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:04 PM
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An accusation that someone has sabotaged manufacturing equipment: the Ludd libel.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:06 PM
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Her hair fastener was to blame.
(snood libel)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:10 PM
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Those cows don't really have to sit around chewing all day.
(cud libel)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:11 PM
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But if you endorse a candidate who calls for "Second Amendment remedies" and somebody gets shot, you've really blown to hell any hope of deniability.

But of course, in response to 62, the actual shooting of someone doesn't really impact the deniability of what Palin was endorsing here, does it? Even if no one ever gets shot, if you endorse a call for "Second Amendment remedies", it's hard to see what other than political violence you could have been intending to endorse.

Of course, Palin could say she was endorsing the candidate, not that particular statement by the candidate. Maybe she has said this, I have no idea. But the point is: that statement is hard to interpret as anything other than an endorsement of political violence. Now, I think, in context, if I'm recalling correctly, the statement was phrased as sort of a possible future endorsement of political violence, if conditions in the country didn't turn around, not really a current call to arms. But I don't really remember. So I think there's more deniability than pf was suggesting. But the point is: someone actually getting shot or not doesn't really play into the question, much less the motives or the level of craziness of the shooter.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:13 PM
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The absolute nuttiness of the shooter really complicates this.

To be clear, yes, any effort to tie this shooting to Palin is a bad rap. It's like attributing a specific hurricane to global warming. Even if Loughner said the shooting was inspired by Palin, that wouldn't be sufficient to tie the shooting to Palin.

But that doesn't get Palin off the hook. I want to know why she endorses a candidate who talks about "Second Amendment remedies," but is opposed to this particular shooting. Under what circumstances are Second Amendment remedies called for?

I think I have a fairly coherent sense of which people bob wants shot, and why. Palin owes us the same level of clarity.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:13 PM
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The blood libel thing reminds me of the Vatican priest who said outrage over child molestation scandals was like the historical persecution of Jews. The tone-deafness of it is almost enough to make me laugh.

Oh, and Japanese people talk funny.
(brudd ribel)


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:14 PM
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I think a coherent shooter who said "I think Angle was right, and I was exercising my Second Amendment remedy to show those liberals what for!" would have been support for the idea that Angle's rhetoric was harmful. The actual shooter, not drawing that sort of tight connection, isn't evidence the same way. (I still think the rhetoric is harmful, I just don't think the shooter's much evidence for it.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:16 PM
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||
In the spirit of a discussion in the last thread, I added my visage to the flickr group.
But not my voice, because you can't do that.
|>


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:20 PM
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To those who think Palin inadvertently used the term blood libel: The Stupidity Defense goes only so far. I await her apology now that she's been schooled in the history of that term

I don't disagree that she should apologize. Being inadvertent doesn't meant it wasn't wrong. If I inadvertently step on your foot, I should apologize too.

David Letterman inadvertently made a crass joke about the wrong Palin daughter. He apologized.

But apologies are for dirty liberal hippies; Palin wont do it.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:21 PM
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The Unfoggedtariat from Texas are all hat no cattle.
(dude libel)


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:22 PM
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Under what circumstances are Second Amendment remedies called for?

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure


Posted by: Thomas Jefferson (no, really) | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:30 PM
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You know who really sucks, though? Zaphod Beeblebrox.

(Frood libel, obvs.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:32 PM
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These pies just taste like dirt!

(mud libel)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:49 PM
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The beer that dsquared champions is, in fact, as shitty as it is reputed to be.

(Bud libel)


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:57 PM
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Your navigation system is worthless.

(Scud libel)


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 3:59 PM
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You can keep your blood money!

(Hud libel)


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:02 PM
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And Idaho's most famous crop is nothing to write home about, either.

(spud libel)


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:02 PM
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Paul Newman's best movie in 1963 was A New Kind of Love.

(Hud libel)


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:03 PM
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You're canibalistic, humanoid, and you dwell underground.

(CHUD libel)


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:03 PM
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This apartment is unlivable!

(HUD libel)


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:03 PM
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Goddamit. I knew that would happen. Ari's being paid by the government to pwn us, you know.

(FUD Libel)


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:04 PM
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You fuck female horses.

(Stud libel)


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:04 PM
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You wouldn't believe what they get up to at the manor.

(m'lud libel)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:05 PM
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Really, that's it?

(pud libel)


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:05 PM
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"Stud libel" has been used already, Halford.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:05 PM
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90

dsquared thinks horrible cheap American lager is really nice!

(not Bud libel, because true).

75: it's good to be reminded every now and again that Jefferson never actually fought in the War of Independence.
"My heart is broken by the terrible loss I have sustained in my old friends and companions and my poor soldiers. Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won". -- a man who, whatever his faults, was Jefferson's moral superior on the issues of 1) wars, and whether you should fight them, and 2) people, and whether you should enslave them.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:05 PM
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91

What, you expect me to actually read? What is this, school?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:06 PM
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92

This shit stinks!

(crud libel)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:06 PM
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93

Compared to timber framing, balloon framing is a hugely inferior form of construction.

(stud libel)


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:09 PM
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94

Actually, the operation you performed in the past wasn't addition at all.

(Quadd libel.)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:10 PM
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95

If he were a real artist he'd make his pieces himself.

(Judd libel)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:15 PM
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96

You stole the Crown Jewels!

(Blood libel.)


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:19 PM
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I'll grant she's pretty but she's not much of an actress.

(Now pwned Judd libel.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:20 PM
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94 is totally opaque to me. Should I know what 'quadd' means?

In other news, the process of trying to get a faculty job is draining and stressful and impostor-syndrome-y. Not that I can complain much since I've achieved some sort of medium-term job security.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:24 PM
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56 is funny. Possibly more important, I'm commenting from my new fancy phone!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:27 PM
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100

Kobe likes fancy phones.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:31 PM
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101

96 Wins!


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:33 PM
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The Baroness cheated on Destro.

(Major Bludd libel)


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:41 PM
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103

I'm not getting 96. Am I being dense?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:43 PM
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104

Re: 103

Wiki 'Thomas Blood'.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 4:58 PM
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104: Ah, thanks. So not dense, just ignorant.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 5:17 PM
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It's projection: it's what they do. And, y'know, it's an implicit accusation that you're as bad as Hitler if you disagree with her.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 5:29 PM
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105: no, no, diamonds are both dense and brilliant, not ignorant.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 5:44 PM
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Rafael Sabatini stole all his ideas!

(Captain Blood libel)

I'll see myself out.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 5:44 PM
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109

||

Hey, did Ogged just have a baby, or something?

|>


Posted by: emdash | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:16 PM
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I knew he was expecting, but did you hear something in particular?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:22 PM
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109: !

It does look Mexican.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:23 PM
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Either he had a baby, or someone he knows did, based on his latest Flickr upload.


Posted by: emdash | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:26 PM
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But set one presidential assassin's leg...
(Mudd libel)


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:28 PM
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Huh. Two hours old! Congrats, long-lost-Ogged!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:28 PM
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Heebie, you get to blog-name the Ogged Baby.

(And congrats, Elusive One!)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:31 PM
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116

How about Sprogged?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:35 PM
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117: Of course! Well done.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:40 PM
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109: Way to put that on the blood-death thread. Congrats.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:41 PM
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Ah, excellent news for Ogged and family.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 6:45 PM
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Yay, baby!


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 7:03 PM
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94 is totally opaque to me. Should I know what 'quadd' means?

No, not really. You can google "quaddition" (or read Wittgenstein on Rules and Private Language) if you're really interested.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 7:07 PM
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Austrian-school arithmetic? No, I don't want to start down a slippery slope to the gold standard.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 7:20 PM
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I'm torn between acknowledging that 122 is amusing and making a po-faced reply.

(When torn, go meta!)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 7:22 PM
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I just noticed the Ogged baby too! Hurray!


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 7:45 PM
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Huzzah, Ogged. Huzzah!


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 7:54 PM
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Fucking anchor babies.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 8:07 PM
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127

I can't get into Flickr! I want to see the Oggedling! No fair.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 8:52 PM
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Okay now I saw. Mollified.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-12-11 9:00 PM
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Pretty please can someone help me get access to the Flickr group?


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 3:16 AM
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"Gillard's leadership coup was justified"

(Rudd libel)


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 3:51 AM
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ttaM looks atrocious in a kilt.
(plaid libel)


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 5:51 AM
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Woo Oggedling!
Speaking of pictures of young humans, I just visited the Museum of Modern Art in Frankfurt, where they were showing a huge set of photography collections. Good stuff. They had a lot of stuff by Jock Sturges, including an hour-long documentary featuring a lot of his models talking about how awesome he is, how it's totally non sexual, they're all nudists, etc. I know the grand jury never indicted him back in the day, but still- i found it remarkable that his stuff gets a legal pass, given other anecdata about what's considered illegal.


Posted by: X. Trapnel | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 6:37 AM
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Also, hooray and congratulations to ogged and his f.a.b. sprogged!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 6:41 AM
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Awl, the picture isn't in the Unfogged Flickr group, but in his photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/caducosity/). I think if you make him a Flickr contact from there, he can add you to the group.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 6:45 AM
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re: 132

Yeah, there are others. I have a Taschen history of photography book that has a few photos in it that are, to my eyes, morally dubious. More so than Sturges, I think. Not sure if I'd necessarily lump Sturges in as that, but I haven't seen that much of his stuff.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 6:49 AM
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I should have been clearer- commenting from mobile- i didn't find Sturges dubious at all; certainly not compared to the Larry Clarck exhibit on the same floor. I just can't imagine how the law could share this view absent an enormous amount of discretion. And boo for discretion.


Posted by: X. Trapnel | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 7:07 AM
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I can add people to the flickr group - email me at the address under my pseud.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 7:22 AM
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137: So you finally bested Armsmasher in personal combat to win the keys to the flickr group? Congratulations!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 7:25 AM
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re: 136

Yeah, I'm not sure if I have much an issue with the Sturges photos I've seen. But, as I said, not seen that many. And I agree re: Larry Clark.

I can't remember the name of the photographer whose work bothered me in the Taschen book. He's someone reasonably well known, I think. Will try to remember to check.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 7:27 AM
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Actually it was more like:
Ogged: Hi, take over please.
Me: Old buddy! Let's reminisce!
Ogged: Bye.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 7:28 AM
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140: I'm sure it was prompted by a long dream about "carrying the fire."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 7:35 AM
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Stochastic Terrorism ...Agonist

"The stochastic terrorist is the person who uses mass media to broadcast memes that incite unstable people to commit violent acts." G2geek, January 10, 2011
March 10, 2010 magazine article on the Chinese internet practice known as "human flesh searching engines."
Numerian, in comments.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 7:58 AM
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And congrats Ogged, I think. But he doesn't read this, prolly doesn't remember me or care what I think. I am kinda pleased anyway. More than kinda.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 8:00 AM
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62/71
But this guy... violent rhetoric is bad, and can certainly have the effect of inciting unstable people to violence. But he wasn't following a Tea Party script, he was really out in space somewhere.

I agree, Jared Loughner is a much worse example of people incited to violence by leading conservatives than Jim Adkisson, Bryon Williams, Scott Roeder, Richard Poplawski, and James von Brunn (for the record, that last one is the only remotely dubious example). That's all in the past two years. I don't understand why conservatives who pretend that there is not "more politically motivated violence from the right than the left" is "crap, unless one has some nonstandard definitions of right and left", as 12 put it, are considered reasonable.

Also, wow, congratulations ogged, and more importantly congratulations to whoever the alleged woman involved was. Does ogged even lurk here any more, or are people counting on him getting this well-wishing through e-mails, or what?


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 8:30 AM
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I don't understand why conservatives who pretend that there is not "more politically motivated violence from the right than the left" is "crap, unless one has some nonstandard definitions of right and left", as 12 put it, are considered reasonable.

I agree, but, for example, TLL thinks it very important to include protest and vandalism as "politically motivated violence."


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 8:33 AM
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Wow, that sentence with multiple quotes in 144 is phrased really badly. I guess I try a little too hard to single out people I think are unreasonably treated as reasonable. Oh well.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 8:34 AM
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147

145
I agree, but, for example, TLL thinks it very important to include protest and vandalism as "politically motivated violence."

Vandalism, sure in theory, although I think it would take a hell of a lot of vandalism to balance out murder. Maybe we'd have to agree to disagree about where to set that line. Note that in practice, though, as was pointed out upthread, actual politically-motivated vandalism is nowhere near what people seem to think.

Protesting, though? No, it's not.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 8:37 AM
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147: vandalism isn't violence, though. It's a property crime. Violence implies "against a person". You wouldn't describe stealing someone's car as a violent crime just because the thief had broken the car's window to do it. Violent crime has to include violence or the threat of violence towards a person.
You could describe some vandalism as "politically motivated crime", sure. Criminal damage is a crime. But it isn't violence.

Apropos of 12, the last G-8 summit involved a lot of property damage, but only one protestor was arrested for a violent crime (assault): the charge was dropped, and his assailants were instead investigated for assault (they had beaten him severely with clubs, breaking his nose and cheekbone). However, all of them had covered their faces and taken other steps to conceal their identities, and the authorities were unable to identify them.

All his assailants were policemen.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 8:53 AM
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147: vandalism isn't violence, though. It's a property crime. Violence implies "against a person".

This is probably begging the question when arguing with conservatives, isn't it? It doesn't seem that law enforcement in the US views property destruction as necessarily a lesser crime than robbery, assault, or rape, and I suspect most conservatives agree.... (Of course, I think it's sociopathic to view property crimes as in any way morally comparable to violent crimes against people, but then I would probably have to class a large fraction of the population as sociopaths.)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 9:11 AM
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I think it's sociopathic to view property crimes as in any way morally comparable to violent crimes against people...

...unless the property in question is my yard.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 9:14 AM
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Some vandalism/property damage is clearly intended as a threat and is thus more morally comparable to violence, e.g. burning a cross in someone's yard or spray painting a swastika on their door.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 9:18 AM
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Some property damage could also destroy the ability of somebody to make a living. They'd usually have insurance, but this isn't always possible.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 9:19 AM
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Does ogged even lurk here any more

Not as far as I know, but he does still reply quickly to ogged-at-unfogged-dot-com, so I think he's at least getting mail to that address forwarded to his main one.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 9:37 AM
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It doesn't seem that law enforcement in the US views property destruction as necessarily a lesser crime than robbery, assault, or rape, and I suspect most conservatives agree....

Well, property destruction isn't necessarily a lesser crime than assault. It depends on degree. If you, say, burn down someone's house, you probably should get a harsher punishment than if you just punch them. Simple assault might only get you a fine; arson could get you anything up to life.

149: The "are they morally comparable" question is rather trickier. But I don't think it's sociopathic to think, say, that you would have been more harmed by someone who burns your house down than by someone who punches you, and therefore that the former is morally inferior to the latter.
The law recognises this by, for example, saying that it's OK to use some degree of physical force to prevent a crime against property. If you have to punch someone in order to stop them burning down your house, you are (I think) OK in the eyes of the law.

151, 152: but whether or not a property crime is as serious or as morally bad as a crime of violence, it's still not a crime of violence. This is just a question of legal definitions, not moral judgement.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 9:39 AM
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151/2/4 are all fair. I have to admit I was thinking mostly of destruction of corporate property, of the sort where the harm is more diffuse, not the sort of property crime that could financially ruin particular people.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 9:48 AM
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155: in that case I think you're generally right. Though I think there are still cases in which destruction of corporate property might be morally worse than physical harm to a person. If you're an academic, and someone burned down your university library? Or if someone destroyed something like a hospital?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 10:02 AM
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156: That hospital had it coming. Did you see what it was wearing?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 10:13 AM
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154: If you, say, burn down illegally foreclose on someone's house, you probably should get a harsher punishment than if you just punch them.

But that will never happen.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 10:14 AM
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Did you see what it was wearing?

That wasn't a propeller hat, M/tch. It was a medevac chopper, you insensitive lout.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 11:26 AM
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||

Completely OT! I am completely drunk after about 4 beers, 5 whiskeys, 1 absinthe. AND AND AND got access to the flickr group.

So...
I'd just like to say to all you imaginary people:
I love you guys, you've made my life a lot more bearable these past (I think) three years. Thanks!

Special appreciation to LizardBreath, Sifu, Heebie, Nosflow, Apo, AWB, Stanley, essear, and probably others I'm forgetting right now.

Seriously, I'm very happy to have known (?) you virtual internet people.

|>


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 3:12 PM
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I am completely drunk after about 4 beers, 5 whiskeys, 1 absinthe.

Sheesh, lightweight.

Special appreciation to LizardBreath, Sifu, Heebie, Nosflow, Apo, AWB, Stanley, essear, and probably others I'm forgetting right now.

Uh, I mean, I LOVE YOU TOO, MAN. OR WOMAN.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 3:16 PM
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Love you too, Awlsie!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 3:31 PM
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Awl, shucks.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 3:49 PM
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Garsh.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 4:01 PM
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Giggity.

Going to bed now. Thanks again, all you guys/laydeez!


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 4:05 PM
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Is Awl dying?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 4:27 PM
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166: Nah, if anything s/he's going to a farm to live forever.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 4:32 PM
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Maybe Awl just spent however long looking at pictures in the unfogged Flickr group. While drinking. It's enough to make anybody who's read comments here for a while go "Aww" and fall over. Plus the 5 whiskeys.

I just recently glommed on to the fact that Awl is in some far away (from the US) country, but I forget now which it is.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 5:21 PM
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Israel?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 5:27 PM
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Israel: So close to God, so far from the United States of America.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 5:32 PM
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Right, that was it. Israel. I've also been assuming Awl commenting here is The Awl of the website, and I don't read that very often, so I didn't realize the Israel thing.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01-13-11 5:44 PM
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Israel: So close to God, so far from the United States of America.

This is full of win.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 01-14-11 5:48 AM
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More on the joys of police/prosecutorial discretion.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 01-14-11 5:51 AM
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This isn't unexpected, of course, but I thought I'd link to it just to close the loop on this.

Sarah Palin defends use of "blood libel" term
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Prominent Republican Sarah Palin on Monday defended her reference to "blood libel" that aroused controversy last week when she used the term to condemn criticism linking her fiery rhetoric to the Arizona shootings.
"Blood libel obviously means being falsely accused of having blood on your hands. In this case, that's exactly what was going on," Palin told Fox News in her first interview since the controversy erupted over her remarks.

This article could have been written before any of the events it describes actually transpired, and I'd guess all the quotes would have ended up being probably 80% correct.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 6:25 AM
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I've got to say that I'm impressed with the Washington Times's chutzpah in describing the criticism of Palin's use of "blood libel" as being part of a "pogrom" against conservatives.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 6:31 AM
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175: Seriously? Wow.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 7:24 AM
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Oh, not seriously. I am gullible.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 7:33 AM
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178

No, seriously.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 7:53 AM
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Oh my.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 7:56 AM
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Still to come: how she survived the gas chamber of liberal criticism and endured the flames of the crematorium of MSM rumour-mongering.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 7:59 AM
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After bravely casting off the yellow star of a Republican governorship.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 8:01 AM
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And hiding in the attic of the Fox newsroom.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 8:03 AM
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Centuries from now, followers of Sarah Palin will profess their opposition to political violence, all the while secretly voting for Tea Partiers. Some may even forget that they are Tea Partiers themselves.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 8:18 AM
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And hiding in the attic of the Fox newsroom

@sarahpalin-it's a wondr i hvn't abndned all my ideals they seem so absurd & impractical yet i cling 2 them cuz i still believe in spite of everything libruls h8 america


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 01-18-11 8:19 AM
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