Gendering this part: When men see a worker taking criticism personally, seeming to push too hard for his or her ideas, or having a personality conflict, they automatically view that worker as less business-savvy and less experienced, or as someone who operates on emotion, not logic. just seems really bizarre to me. I mean, first off, doesn't it take two to have a personality conflict? And mightn't the two people be of different genders? Also, "seeming to push too hard for his or her ideas"?!? What does that even mean, devoid of a specific context? And how do we get from "his or her ideas" to "[women] operate on emotion, not logic"?
This just seems like a goofy way to frame the whole question to me.
I'm totally weirded out that Di's boss sent it to her. (Although I think Di has said before that they're friendly.)
Indeedy, but maybe he was fishing for talking points to rubbish the article to somebody else. I'll read it now.
When coupled with the admonition that actually acting like men is also a bad idea for women, because men can tell if you're being fake about things, it was really a stunningly unhelpful article.
I'd be annoyed to receive it from anyone at work, although I suppose if they had a track record of sending me stuff they thought I'd be interested in without reading it, that'd make it harmless. But someone who thought this had useful insight would worry me.
because men can tell if you're being fake about things
Not always. Didn't you watch "When Harry Met Sally"?
That article is truly idiotic. I suspect it's designed to make people dumber, as part as some fiendish underwater cities-related program.
Yeah, when I see stuff like, "The science is clear, for example, that although the female brain isn't designed to compartmentalize personal feelings the same way a man's brain does", my reaction is, which science did you have in mind, cos it sure as hell ain't neurology?
I think Di needs to give us a little context here, lest we go off on one against a friend of hers on the basis of false impressions.
Yeah, I mean, he may have sent it to her thinking "ooh, I bet Di'll have some choice words about this one."
From the article:
The male brain has the enviable ability to essentially switch off emotions when desired
Wow, that is enviable! Where do I get me one of these "male brains"?
That article is truly idiotic.
All the non-idiotic stuff was making my head hurt. So, thanks to Di and her boss.
Won't it be great when women finally learn to stop getting on men's nerves?
In my biggest class this semester, I have two non-Jewish non-immigrant white guys in one class, which is unusually high for this school. One stormed out because we discussed a woman poet for too long and hasn't come back since, and the other gets red in the face with rage when I mention colonialism because, in his words, "Maybe you probably think I'm stupid or something but I don't know what colonialism is!" He also gets really angry when I talk about there being specifically "American" attitudes toward things (like work or political inclusion) because "Everyone is different and an individual and I am so offended personally that you would say that there is something 'American' about people!"
As with so many such articles, the problem (other than the pseudo-scientific inanity) that sticks out to me is that the subtext is that the men will just keep on keeping on and women get to figure out how to adapt to that if they want to get anywhere.
Right. Clearly *women* are the emotional ones who can't switch it off, when we have to tiptoe around guys who are triggered by even a whiff of something unlike themselves.
Or, of course, inauthentically like themselves.
I think Di needs to give us a little context here, lest we go off on one against a friend of hers on the basis of false impressions.
I suppose I could wait for Di to weigh in, but it seems pretty clear from her response that she was intended to take this as a thought-provoking, serious article.
If I were seeking guidance on what works, and what fails to work, for women in the workplace, I would take with a grain of salt anything I was told by men.
6: I'm still annoyed by the article on the difficulties of women in science that got discussed on some science blogs I read a few months ago, where the author wrote that women have a much thicker corpus callosum than men and therefore think in a more integrated way and don't compartmentalize. I poked around the literature and didn't find anything substantiating it, but a bunch of people seemed to take it seriously and write things like "well, since science! tells us men and women think differently..."
that she was intended to take this as a thought-provoking, serious article.
So what would be an appropriate response? Demure gratitude? If it were me, I'd send a link to Twisty's.
I'd have to poke around for that, but I recall reading recently that the 'thicker corpus callosum' claim came from one small study a couple of decades ago, and hasn't been successfully replicated. But it sounds good enough that it's still all over the pop gender difference literature.
16: "She blinded me with integrated thinking"
Oh I wish I was an Oscar Meyer weiner,
That is what I'd really like to be!
'Cause if I was an Oscar Meyer weiner,
Perhaps you guys would take a bite of me!
So when we raise our hand in a meeting and ask directly, "Bob, why did you choose that pricing?" we are just asking for information. Bob, on the other hand, may be angrily thinking, "I can't believe she is challenging my judgment in front of my team."
Fuck Bob.
The article isn't even consistent in it's stupidity.
So when we raise our hand in a meeting and ask directly, "Bob, why did you choose that pricing?" we are just asking for information. Bob, on the other hand, may be angrily thinking, "I can't believe she is challenging my judgment in front of my team."
But weren't you just saying that men are rational and women are emotional?
So what would be an appropriate response? Demure gratitude?
I think I have been misread here.
18: Yeah, that was pretty much what I found, I think; lots of pop-science and "men are from mars"-style articles saying it was true long after review articles were published saying no consistent difference was found, just some studies going one way and some in the other.
And in other news, Hosni's gone... Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out!
The article isn't even consistent in it's stupidity.
But I am. Its not It's!
22: Well, that's the thing -- it's all a double bind. Acting different from men pisses them off, acting the same as men pisses them off. Men are rational, and so think less of women when the women are emotional, men have emotions that women need to consider rather than simply being rational about the subject under discussion.
The article may not have been written with malice, but there's certainly no way to gather any kind of useful advice from it.
26: Woohoo! Not that anything good will necessarily come of it, but it's still a good thing in itself.
Many of the beliefs attributed to "men," it seems to me, could equally be applied to "people."
For instance:
When men see a worker taking criticism personally, seeming to push too hard for his or her ideas, or having a personality conflict, they automatically view that worker as less business-savvy and less experienced, or as someone who operates on emotion, not logic. (I was shocked to discover that most men view negative emotion as a signal that logic has ceased.)
Goddammit, this sort of thing pisses me off so much that I can't think straight.
31 is an important point. People know what flies or not in any given workplace. It isn't some esoteric knowledge reserved for men.
Re: Mubarak
Good for the protesters, of course, but I'm a bit curious what it means exactly when a military dictator hands over power to the military.
Many of the beliefs attributed to "men," it seems to me, could equally be applied to "people."
And when women thrive in a workplace, it doesn't count as counterevidence towards the Pathology Of Womanhood.
29,33: Yeah, it is a bit hard to have much enthusiasm for the "Higher Council of the Armed Forces".
But I'll wait for bob to explain it all to me.
35.last: But I'm going to hazard a guess that Obama done wrong.
Part of what makes articles like this so annoying is that they make the situation sound worse than it is. If you took this literally, about how men generally react to women generally, there'd be no way for women to function in the workforce in an equal way at all. And while things certainly aren't perfect, they're just not that bad.
Goddammit, this sort of thing pisses me off so much that I can't think straight.
Whoa, calm down lady, don't get so hysterical.
Well, that's the thing -- it's all a double bind.
Right. And the solution is for the woman to phrase it all demure-like:
"Bob, help me understand the reason for that pricing."
Teach me, oh man, help me understand!
21: How long before mcmanus drops by and reads this as yet another gratuitous personal attack by the elite of Unfogged?
I would be shocked if Di's boss didnt have a fairly decent idea about how she would react to it.
I'll trust the jubilant Egyptians. Obama must be so disappointed.
I will say that one woman I work with keeps giving me "deadlines" and I keep seeing it as a dominance game since she isn't my boss. Everybody else, including my actual boss, will ask when I can finish instead of giving me a deadline. Or they'll say, we need it by this day because that's what grant giver/journal/etc says. Or maybe she's just an asshole because it isn't like she will apologize when she doesn't meet the deadline she herself set for her part.
31: What I find so frustrating about that article is the implicit assumption that there IS a right way to do it -- that is, if you dumb little women haven't figured it out, it's because you haven't read her book. It couldn't possibly be that the the same behavior from different people elicits different responses from bosses.
Jubilance is in sadly short supply these days.
43: Good lord, that sort of thing drives me bananas. How are you able not to snap at her?
Or maybe she's just an asshole
Nah. It's clearly because she's a woman.
I find myself eagerly awaiting further info from Di on whether this was intended as a "look at this thought provoking article" thing or a "look at this stupid fuckwad" thing. I honestly can't...seriously, shit like this, and the attitudes it describes, made me feel quite...negatively towards men, when I was working in a decidedly male dominated, admittedly asshole-y field. Anecdotally, I'm not alone in that, or in experiencing it as sort of relevatory. (Also, that whole experience made me really happy to be gay. I've often wondered if my relative lack of investment in long term relationships with men (I don't need 'em! but I do have a bunch that I love) has freed me to be extra critical of common male behavior. When I was still trying to convince myself I might be bi, I definitely didn't get as angry / annoyed / outraged by commonplace...outrages. But then I was also young and stupid(er).)
All of that was a long-winded way of saying: if I had a boss who sent me that article in earnest, I'd be grinding my teeth while trying very hard to laugh at the irony.
44: Yep. I don't think the workplace is as bad as she describes it, but what the article is describing is a situation where women are systematically subjected to different, harsher standards of conduct.
When men see a worker taking criticism personally, seeming to push too hard for his or her ideas, or having a personality conflict, they automatically view that worker as less business-savvy and less experienced, or as someone who operates on emotion, not logic. (I was shocked to discover that most men view negative emotion as a signal that logic has ceased.)
This seems more like the difference between American and British styles of arguing. Both on the Internet and in conversation I would say British people are likely to turn into the world's most irate and insulting person strictly for the purpose of making their point, making the Americans say "Okay! Good lord! If you care that much about it, sure!" and then half an hour later claim that it's infantile to think they were actually being irrational. There's some sort of "argument mode" where you can abandon all social conventions and manners that you usually follow, no matter how trivial the topic is under dispute.
Wow, that is enviable! Where do I get me one of these "male brains"?
The planet Vulcan.
43: Huh. Is she just using different vocabulary for a situation where it would be otherwise acceptable for her to say that something needs to get done by a given date, or is she out of place to be setting a schedule for you at all? If the latter, yeah, it sounds dominance-y. If the former, maybe, maybe not, but it doesn't sound like a big issue.
40:I am forgiving of a temporary loss of faith. All Bob's are Bob, and there is one true Bob.
Probably Sami Hafiz Anan, to the degree that anyone is in charge besides the people. At least that has been the word.
But the order went out to the soldiers to shoot (a week+ ago?), and they took off their comm helmets and called home. I can't remember, but it wasn't Mubi or Suli, and might have come from Anan. But he can repair relations.
Needless to say, when your grunts are not following orders, the situation is fluid.
And yes, Obama blew it. High officers does not equal army. The outcome was never in doubt, at least with Mubi, and he vacillated too long. It will be remembered.
Interesting question whether you should always go with the soldiers.
38 made me laugh.
I'm very sad that the author's nine years of studying can be distilled down to telling women to stop being emotional, don't question men in meetings and don't act like men because they'll know you're faking it.
(I was shocked to discover that most men view negative emotion as a signal that logic has ceased.)
Only when a woman does it.
50 gets it so, so right on this one.
43 is indeed assholish. Ask her what happens if you miss her deadline. Do you...die? Does she fire you? Is your soul forfeit? It sounds mighty serious, "deadline." She should be clear. (I'm this close to advocating that you ask her if she's gonna cry about it.)
All Bob's are Bob, and there is one true Bob
There is no Bob but Bob and McManus is his prophet.
"I enter into conversations with unsuspecting men sitting next to me on airplanes, on the subway and in coffee shops and give them a chance to share their innermost thoughts anonymously.
If a stranger came up to me at the coffee shop and asked me to share my innermost thoughts, I'd suddenly remember that I was late for an appointment. But maybe that's just because I'm a man.
Both on the Internet and in conversation I would say British people are likely to turn into the world's most irate and insulting person strictly for the purpose of making their point, making the Americans say "Okay! Good lord! If you care that much about it, sure!" and then half an hour later claim that it's infantile to think they were actually being irrational. There's some sort of "argument mode" where you can abandon all social conventions and manners that you usually follow, no matter how trivial the topic is under dispute.
I think dsquared may have skewed your sample a bit.
55.2 pretty much covers it. Except it's not "don't question men in meetings," it's: substitute for "why, Bob?" something like "help me understand, Bob." (That's cracking me up: it's so transparent.)
There is no Bob but Bob and McManus is his prophet.
Well, yeah.
54:but it wasn't Mubi or Suli
Well, of course it was, but not directly. And Anan might have known it wouldn't be obeyed, or might have signaled. And at that point Muli & Suli are asking whether there is anybody who can keep the tanks from pointing at them, and Anan says "Well..."
Order had to go out and not be obeyed for this quiet coup to work. Neat.
And yes, Obama blew it.
I'm pretty harsh on Obama's foreign policy overall, but from where I'm standing it looks like the American government largely just stayed out of the way. Which is all I really want them to do anyhow.
Apostropher, obviously if Obama was moral he would have said that we firmly stand with the opposition and the opposition firmly stands with us, just like the neoconservatives assured us would work after the Iranian elections.
63:What did you fear, fighter bombers? They supported Mubi, then Suli as much as they could, any way they could, "orderly transition" "constitution" etc.
Incidentally, if Mubarek has resigned and the Speaker has not ascended, we are out of constitutional order, which is what the people wanted from the start.
Here is Michael Collins with background on the April 6th Movement
There are great powers and commercial interests lurking at the edges of the this remarkable peoples' movement. The call for an "orderly transition" is just another form of paternalism. What is orderly? Time enough for Mubarak or his proxy to stay long enough to rig another election? Time enough for things to cool down enough to walk just a few steps forward rather than a revolution? Time enough for U.S. and European Union leaders to install a new leader to deliver what Mubarak did so well for 30 years?The fundamental rights and the exercise of those rights by a sovereign people should be inviolable, particularly in a part of the world where the West claims that it is promoting democracy. The Egyptian revolution has at it's core, the demand for the elimination of a massively corrupt government and the opportunity create an honest one in its place. That is a goal of people everywhere, a goal that will be met if those few obsessed with control for their own purposes would just step aside.
It would seem to strain credulity that the sole response of the Obama administration is apparent from their public pronouncements. IANAD, but I would think it likely that there was some kind of reverse-Glaspie conversation or conversations along the lines of "get Mubarak out of there, you army guys, because if there's a real* revolution, we're gonna have to step in and fuck shit up to protect Israel."
*All power to the protesters in Tahrir Square, and I hope they do get their revolution, but today would only be the first step.
The male brain has the enviable ability to essentially switch off emotions when desired
At the latest, after reading this sentence, I knew not to lend any credence to anything this author has to say.
I recently experienced an example of just how pernicious this particular fallacy is. A female colleague was up for promotion to a position dominated by men. In the deliberations over her promotion, several of the men present objected to her promotion on the grounds that she is "too emotional".
Now the thing is, she really *is* pretty emotional sometimes, in the sense that she has a distinctly low threshold for crying compared to her professional peers, male or female. I could totally see how this objectively handicaps her in her work. One of her detractors in the performance review meeting said, in effect, "Sorry, she isn't in control of her emotions, what if she starts crying in front of a client?"
My boss, who is no one's idea of a progressive, came to her defense, saying "You guys think you're in control of your emotions? How many of you lost your temper at a client and said something you later regretted? You're not in control of your emotions any more than she is."
And FWIW, she is much more apt to say, "Bob, that's total nonsense" than "Bob, help me understand".
I'm very sad that the author's nine years of studying can be distilled down to telling women to stop being emotional, don't question men in meetings and don't act like men because they'll know you're faking it.
I just read the article and, wow, it's notably shallow even by the standards of newspaper stories about pop psychology
Also even though the woman interviewed sounds like an idiot it's frustrating that the times used a photograph that practically screams, "don't listen to anything that this woman says about how men behave in the workplace."
67: she has a distinctly low threshold for crying compared to her professional peers
This is one of the things I'm most paranoid about people realizing when I work in a businessy setting. Just the other night I almost burst into tears at a very chill radical meeting, solely because I was mentioning that this is the 125th anniversary of the Haymarket outrage, and that always makes me overwrought.
You know what? Not our place. Ask the Egyptian people if they have felt Obama's full support and encouragement during this attempt to gain their freedom. Ask them. Keep asking. They aren't fols.
One thing that has amazed me is how connected this all is, Ukrainians, Thais, Mexicans are in contact with Egyptians. There is a story that this started in an Internet Cafe. We are all Khaled Said. Can't fool the people anymore, except in America.
the subtext is that the men will just keep on keeping on and women get to figure out how to adapt to that if they want to get anywhere.
Feldhahn is marketed (and/or markets herself) as a "Christian" writer so the men-are-from-Mars-women-from-Venus nonsense isn't too surprising. According to Wikipedia, Feldhahn's
"background as an analyst served as a launching point for opportunities to write about eye-opening topics, from a non-fictional work on the Y2K issue (Y2K: The Millennium Bug) to two spiritual fiction thrillers (The Veritas Conflict and The Lights of Tenth Street). While interviewing men to help her write The Lights on Tenth Street, which has a male protagonist, Feldhahn made a series of observations about men that compelled her to return to the non-fiction world, leading her to further research what men are thinking that women tend not to know."
The whole piece is a much an advertisement for her books as anything else. She may not know much about gender but she's probably the go-to person on the Y2K catastrophe.
bob friedman: One thing that has amazed me is how connected this all is, Ukrainians, Thais, Mexicans are in contact with Egyptians. There is a story that this started in an Internet Cafe.
We are all Khaled Said. Can't fool the people anymore, except in America.
Oh god. The stupid. It burns.
69: Maybe the example of John Boehner will help you out.
47: I meant either she is an asshole or I'm feeling unnecessarily threatened because I'm a man. I think she is wrong, but who knows? My penis is external and I am afraid it might get cut-off. That could have made me overly prone to feel defensive.
69:
Men Women are more receptive to criticism advice from someone stroking a cat. It's been proven by Science!
59 gets it exactly right. IME Ned has his stereotypes backwards in 51.
56.last: Obviously, I've missed every deadline she has given me to no effect. Even when I could easily finish on time, I put another priority first.
It's a good thing 74 is tongue-in-cheek; otherwise a person might have to take issue.
My penis is external and I am afraid it might get cut-off
This sentence is all you will ever need to know to understand human male psychology.
You know what? Not our place.
Well, yes. That's my point.
Ask the Egyptian people if they have felt Obama's full support and encouragement
Given America's long and ugly history in the region, I suspect a sizable number would prefer America mind its own business for a change. But I guess you've been asking more Egyptian people their opinions on the matter than I have, so I'll defer to your surveys.
39: In my experience, that's pretty-good advice for both sexes. My work conversations tend to be a lot more productive when someone says, "help me understand why you did it X way" instead of "Why did you do X?" or "X is the wrong way to do it, you should do Y instead".
It's about respecting that someone might know something you don't about the particular question they have been working on for a while. People stop wanting to help you when they think you're attacking them.
But YMMV. Maybe you work with a bunch of thick-skinned assholes, in which case, go with what works.
74: There's a sense in which you just have to kind of let assholes roll off your back, though -- letting them push you around substantively is a mistake, but so is paying too much attention to whether they're actually being assholes.
My wife's at home sick today; she says some news anchor just said "The American dream is alive and well in Egypt." Never let it be said we aren't the world's greatest narcissists.
you just have to kind of let assholes roll off your back, though
Use plenty of lube.
76: IME Ned has his stereotypes backwards in 51.
51: Both on the Internet and in conversation I would say British people are likely to turn into the world's most irate and insulting person strictly for the purpose of making their point,
Oh, I'm terribly sorry, please excuse me, but if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you point out some examples of this? I'm ever so sorry to inconvenience you this way, you must think me terribly rude for doing so.
Men are more receptive to criticism from someone stroking a cat.
THIS ORGANISATION DOES NOT TOLERATE FAILURE, DOCTOR.
By the way, I'm not disparaging thick-skinnned assholes. When they're also smart and good at they're jobs, they're the best people to work with once you get used to being able to actually say what you think, and not taking stuff too personally.
Oh, I'm terribly sorry, please excuse me, but if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you point out some examples of this? I'm ever so sorry to inconvenience you this way, you must think me terribly rude for doing so.
Oh, naff off, you filthy septic.
66: It would seem to strain credulity that the sole response of the Obama administration is apparent from their public pronouncements.
But clearly bob has hacked the Egyptian palantir (see his 62, for instance).
Tunis Pressed to Act on Pressing Social Needs
TUNIS -- Tunisia's main labour union urged the government Thursday to begin talks immediately to defuse a ticking social bomb that threatens to derail the country's nascent democratic process."It is in the interest of the government to rapidly launch negotiations with the main union because the social situation is explosive," said Abid Briki, who heads the General Union of Tunisian Workers (UGTT)....
Public anxiety has simmered despite Ben Ali's ouster on January 14....
Organised and spontaneous strikes have slowed down the economy and the new government's pledge to cut ties with the former regime has done little to appease resentment among the country's poorest.
See, the rest of the world understands Naomi Wolff, because they have to live with Neo-Liberalism. They know how the Poles, South Africans, and got screwed by "democracy", and they will refuse to be slave labor granted sham phony elections by the globalists.
In America, we are told to laugh at Naomi, and it works. The stupid does indeed burn.
Front paged at al Jazeera
My Revolution Betrayed...Yuliya Tymoschenko
Go make excuses for the guy cutting heating subsidies for the elderly so he give tax breaks to business and millionaires. Keep telling me how smart you are.
My work conversations tend to be a lot more productive when someone says, "help me understand why you did it X way" instead of "Why did you do X?" or "X is the wrong way to do it, you should do Y instead".
Yeah, an oddity of this sort of article is that they always seem to understate the indirectness inherent in ordinary polite speech (probably because ordinary polite oral speech looks really verbose and waffly when you write it down.)
My wife's at home sick today; she says some news anchor just said "The American dream is alive and well in Egypt." Never let it be said we aren't the world's greatest narcissists.
And here I was thinking unkind thoughts about a reporter for not knowing that Philadelphia's Egyptian population is tiny. (Census says 369, with a margin of error of 213.) Per your example, the ignorance could have been an order of magnitude worse.
Regarding Feldhahn's Y2K: The Millenium Bug, the Amazon review says:
"The Year 2000 computer bug, potentially affecting our banks, government, phone companies, electric companies, and Social Security system, could be one of the largest "bugs" to hit the entire world-all in one day. Shaunti Feldhahn, former financial analyst at the Federal Reserve, provides the most up-to-date facts on Y2K in a thoughtful, down-to-earth, and entertaining manner. Presenting the substantive advice of Christian leaders such as Larry Burkett, Henry Blackaby, Pat Robertson, and Ron Blue, she shows that Y2K is an opportunity to minister to others and to see God glorified in unique ways."
Yeah, nothing glorifies God like repairing old code.
I meant either she is an asshole or I'm feeling unnecessarily threatened because I'm a man. I think she is wrong, but who knows?
Oh yeah, I was with you. The dry, bitter tone of my 47 is directed at the world, not at you.
Yeah, nothing glorifies God like repairing old code.
Especially if you can make Tom Hanks get a really stupid haircut.
Never let it be said we aren't the world's greatest narcissists.
Let me once again express my gratitude for the Al Jazeera live stream, which has prevented me from hearing that kind of idiocy.
80:Given America's long and ugly history in the region, I suspect a sizable number would prefer America mind its own business for a change.
Tough, apo. We are embedded through globalism and Neo-liberalism. Egypt encounters American products, corporations, money every single day. We cannot be uninvolved.
I asked last night if we had a division in Egypt. The MNC in Narnia, Tokyo, Paris, HK, Dallas etfuckingcetera. Nope. Tel Aviv and Dubai. But I am sure a rep is on her way.
91: an oddity of this sort of article is that they always seem to understate the indirectness inherent in ordinary polite speech
It's true that indirectness can avoid a defensive response from those who are inclined to one, and to that extent it's not particularly gendered, but I wouldn't say more generally that indirectness is inherent to ordinary polite speech.
That is, asking (in our working example), "Bob, why did you choose that pricing?" seems utterly neutral to me. It asks a question. Benquo in 81 suggested that it's confrontational (hence calling for a working environment of thick-skinned assholes), and I'm not really seeing this.
But someone who thought this had useful insight would worry me.
Heh. Haven't gotten through the thread yet, but I see there have been requests for context, so. Basically, my boss has gotten many an earful from me on gender issues and the confronting women in law firm culture. I have little doubt that the article was forwarded with good intentions along the lines of, "See? I'm paying attention to these issues you keep raising and feel so enlightened by this article!" I also suspect that my response probably irritated him, along the lines of "My god, she's militant. Can't a guy just get some credit for being enlightened?" We are often reasonably friendly, but probably just as often piss each other off.
I suppose if he didn't really read it or think about it, it was probably meant as a nice gesture.
I'm quite certain he read it. I (somewhat grudgingly) give him credit for meaning well. But he really is unbelievably clueless.
I just saw a car go by in downtown SF whose inhabitants were cheering and waving an Egyptian flag out the window.
The Obama administration also deserves a great deal of credit, which it probably won't receive. It understood immediately and intuitively that it should not attempt to lead a protest movement which had mobilized itself without American guidance, and consistently deferred to the Egyptian people. Despite the avalanche of criticism from protestors and pundits, in fact Obama and his key aides -- including Ben Rhodes and Samantha Power and many others -- backed the Egyptian protest movement far more quickly than anyone should have expected. Their steadily mounting pressure on the Mubarak regime took time to succeed, causing enormous heartburn along the way, but now can claim vindication. By working carefully and closely with the Egyptian military, it helped restrain the worst violence and prevent Tiananmen on the Tahrir -- which, it is easy to forget today, could very easily have happened. No bombs, no shock and awe, no soaring declarations of American exceptionalism, and no taking credit for a tidal wave which was entirely of the making of the Egyptian people -- just the steadily mounting public and private pressure on the top of the regime which was necessary for the protestors to succeed.
No gingers in the aquadome, apo. No sense sucking up.
No gingers in the aquadome, apo.
Hey! We'll see about that. I have a plus one. (Not for you apo, though. Sorry. Although that pasty ginger chest is awfully familiar looking.)
I used to be ginger, but it went away when I got older.
105: Or Tarheels. Marc Lynch has to work extra hard to get his spot; looks like he only went to Duke.
Yeah, nothing glorifies God like repairing old code.
The homeliest service that we doe in an honest calling, though it be but to plow, or digge, if done in obedience, and conscience of God's Commandment, is crowned with an ample reward; whereas the best workes for their kine (preaching. praying, offering Evangelicall sacrifices) if without respect of God's injunction and glory, are loaded with curses. God loveth adverbs; and cares not how good, but how well.
They know how the Poles [...] got screwed by "democracy"
Polish wages have skyrocketed over the past decade. The rural population didn't do so well, but since joining the EU even they have benefited greatly from EU subsidies and the ability to work legally in Western Europe. Over the past eighteen years the median monthly wage has gone from about $200 to about $1200. During that same period prices have approximately quadrupled. Or in other words, real wages have gone up by about fifty percent. Almost all of that growth in purchasing power has been over the past decade. (In dollar terms wages were rising quickly in the nineties, but so were prices.)
103:By working carefully and closely with the Egyptian military, it helped restrain the worst violence and prevent Tiananmen on the Tahrir
Holy shit. Lynch gives zero credit to the Egyptian soldiers, and all the credit to Obama. That is a fucking hack.
The order went out to shoot. The soldiers turned off their comms, instead of directly disobeying. "What sir, can't hear you sir." The order went out. Whether or not Obama knew it in advance, he certainly did fcking nothing that prevented a massacre.
Lynch is as bad as it gets here.
Everybody in Egypt understands that the order went out. I think you can watch the exact moment the soldiers disconnected their comms in the al Jazeera archives. Everybody in Egypt understands that, in front of the cameras or behind the scenes, Obama did not prevent the massacre.
Most think he approved or accepted it.
After the soldiers rebelled, Obama and the FP establishments had to cover their asses and adjust to a new, unwelcome reality.
Lynch is playing very close to evil here.
Somewhere around 1/31 around midnight, after the jets flew over and after ElBaradei made his appearance. The observers said the atmosphere felt like Tianenmen.
The live fire order was reported on AJE and then not mentioned again, but not retracted.
48
I find myself eagerly awaiting further info from Di on whether this was intended as a "look at this thought provoking article" thing or a "look at this stupid fuckwad" thing. ...
I'll go with "I'm bored, lets pull Di's chain".
Short, quoted in full with apologies, but there are comments
Obama is speechifying in his classically elevated, sonorous fashion. He should shut up. He has nothing to say. He spent weeks first backing Mubarak, then the torturer Suleiman. He thought his man, Suleiman, had been put in charge last night. It never once crossed his mind that he would stop aid to the regime, even stop sending the bullets and tear gas that have been used against protesters. The US has been handed its arse by the Egyptian people, the vanguard of global democracy, and should at this point be feigning humility....RS
This is my perspective on what Abu Aardvark, someone I read ~ ten years ago, has to say. His job now is to defend the administration? God help the Republic.
Bob, you're being ridiculous.
Mouseover texts: when they rain, they pour.
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Can't sleep in the dark night of the soul, and oh so bored.
Watched Colin Firth in Ford's A Single Man Thursday night. If I were to enjoy The King's Speech more I think I would have to shoot myself. I do wonder about the style of Chris Isherwood, the almost solipsistic autobiographical stream of consciousness.
For the crowd:
Which do you more often attend - parties featuring a stew of anarchic social criticism, bizarre personal attacks and grotesque dissembling, or a dull pudding of sitcom japes and bumpersticker politics? Which would you prefer?
This from an excellent Amazon Review of Doesty's The Idiot, read on the occasion of watching Kurosawa's 1951 version. It fucked me up. I have said this is my first remembered piece of literature, breaking a 12-yr-old 60s midwesterner like a beating.
Is this not the most ALIEN book evah to modern sensibilities? Who the fuck are these people? Who is this author?
I don't think many people think Doesty was the greatest portrayer of women evah, so what is Natassya Filippovna? An idea. The idea of a 14-yr-old girl from good background adopted by a rich pig, raped, and then fucking displayed to salon society. Even Americans aren't this evil anymore.
Natassya is smart enough, strong enough to maintain, grow, even dominate her decadent cafe crowd...awww here I go. Leave her.
Because the book is about two men, Myshkin and Ragozhin, obsessed with the horror and beauty of this idea, and destroying this woman and themselves in the process of trying to save her, and I won't follow them. Doesty is like Kurosawa and Mizoguchi, he liked himself for pitying women. Ozu, and especially Naruse, liked women.
Does Hara Setsuko stink up the film? Well, she's got the nobility and beauty of Natassya's rage, but she carries it too heavily. Maybe Kurosawa's to blame, he is always heavy. Pompous fucker was born to film this book. Natassya's nihilistic rage should be carried lightly, with humour, a dance of death. By the time of the novel, her 21st birthday, she is very very good at lashing out, Natassya has become a pro.
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A troll?
Which do you more often attend - parties featuring a stew of anarchic social criticism, bizarre personal attacks and grotesque dissembling, or a dull pudding of sitcom japes and bumpersticker politics? Which would you prefer?
I like that a lot, laydeeez.
Anybody seen This yet today? h/t FDL
Also worth keeping in mind: cant find anyone in O admin who thinks whatever comes next will be better for U.S. interests than Mubarak was...Jake Tapper
Tapper should have been hunting beside Lynch, I guess
Revolution
is a locomotive. Richard Seymour points us at Algeria.
Yeah, Jake Tapper's my go to guy for insightful reporting.