Oh! This is somewhat related to my dissertation (which I am going nuts trying to complete in time to defend it before I start my job).
Anyhow, just wanted to point out that fundamentalists and evangelicals are not coterminous--there's even some disagreement concerning whether fundamentalists are a subset of evangelicals, or whether they're entirely distinct. Resources available here!
"Unclaimed - 44.5%"
That's a lot higher than I'd have guessed.
We'll be finding out on Friday how many evangelicals are fundamentalists, and how many are fakers.
1: Anyhow, just wanted to point out that fundamentalists and evangelicals are not coterminous--there's even some disagreement concerning whether fundamentalists are a subset of evangelicals, or whether they're entirely distinct.
You think we need know such things?! Pish posh!
What I really want to know is, is there anyone else making an end-of-the-world mix for this weekend? During my efforts I came across a cover by Stone Gossard of Prince's 1999 that I quite like.
Also, from a cursory googling it appears there are actually non-ironic May 21st parties? I am afraid to even investigate this possibility.
Evangelicals and fundamentalists are vulgar, DS. We don't bring them up in polite arguments.
"What I really want to know is, is there anyone else making an end-of-the-world mix for this weekend? "
Eh?
re: 7
The British press are in the pocket of Big Apocalypse, and we're the last ones to find out.
God, I love you people. The idea that there's an entire nation of English-speaking people free of crazies who are predicting that all believing Christians are going to be teleported to Heaven this Friday gives me hope for the future.
We all know that it really happened a few years ago, and the only one to be taken up to heaven was ogged, because he alone was too good for this fallen world.
Though I know there's a rival faction who think he fell down a mineshaftwell in Qom and will re-emerge, gopher-like, to signal the advent of the End.
He just teleports you back and you don't remember a thing. Happened to me many times.
I googled this May 21st thing and found a Washington Post writeup:
by lunchtime Thursday, about 50 area residents joined up with the caravan to support his message. Among them was Gary Vollmer, who took a leave of absence from the Department of Homeland Security to spread the word. He's supposed to go back on May 23. "But I'm not going back," he said. "I'll be gone on the 21st."
The Post is quite happy about mocking the Rapturists for their past history of being utterly wrong, rather than, say, giving them slots on the op-ed page.
Cool, a live-action Great Disappointment 2.0. Roll up, roll up to the circus of human folly.
Apparently Camping, the guy behind this, has form. Last time it was September 1994, which passed unnoticed by me.
Incidentally, Friday is the Rapture - Oh Rapture! When alone together... (W.S.Gilbert); the world doesn't end till October, so we ought to be safe enough for now, unless we happen to be on a bus with a fundie driver at the time.
Where's the Romanian UN President, eh?
I for one will be pissed off if the rapture happens before us evil libruls get to form our one-world socialist government.
You're behind the times, Ttam - it's Obama. After all, what's the difference between the United Nations and the United States, as a Taiwanese student said in a seminar I was in? You wouldn't have called her bright but it wasn't a stupid question.
16. Different sect, different calculation, I think. But these people are about as likely to agree with each other as a room full of Trots.
If Camping turns out to be right about this, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt about the rest of it. So that's good, because he doesn't believe in Hell.
So what's the "reasoning" behind May 21, then? Is it a Rapture Index ex-post kind of thing, or Biblical numerology? And can someone more familiar with fundie thinking explain how it is that all these Rapturites completely ignore the explicitly stated message of the parable of the virgins and the lamps?
Finally, no discussion of this sort of thing is complete without this sketch from Beyond The Fringe
It seems to be Biblical numerology, judging by the WP writeup: "Camping, an engineer by training, says he came up with the very precise date of May 21 through a mathematical calculation that would probably crash Google's computers. It involves, among other things, the dates of floods, the signals of numbers in the Bible, multiplication, addition and subtraction thereof. Camping describes his equations with absolute conviction."
And can someone more familiar with fundie thinking explain how it is that all these Rapturites completely ignore the explicitly stated message of the parable of the virgins and the lamps?
No, but it's probably for the same reason they usually ignore the sermon on the mount. But the guy, or at least his chronicler, was perfectly explicit: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" (Mark, 13:31). So Camping knows more than JC?
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We don't discuss French politics much (relatively speaking) here, but I'd be curious to know how people think the arrest of the IMF Chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn will affect the French political scene. Does anyone have any insight or background?
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Worrying about Christian fundamentalism is like putting on pF 35 sunscreen while suffering from acute vitamin D deficiency. Sure, the family is falling apart, the level of illegitimate births is catastrophic (especially for the kids), but the real problem is the preacher on tv.
22. None at all, but this guy seems to.
14: Apparently Camping, the guy behind this, has form. Last time it was September 1994, which passed unnoticed by me.
Like all agile investigators he has incorporated his earlier failure into a more comprehensive theory. From his book:
6. Since the first part of the tribulation, during which time virtually no one was to become saved, was to be 2,300 days, then 2,300 days after May 21, 1988, brings us to September 7, 1994. This date then must be the beginning date of the great harvest of people who are to become saved during the remaining 6,100 days of the 8,400 (23 full years) of the great tribulation.
7. The end of 6,100 days after September 7,1994, is May 21, 2011, which must be the end of the great tribulation.
a mathematical calculation that would probably crash Google's computers.
Remember, the tribulation of Jacob and the tribulation of Judea are patterns of our present great tribulation. Therefore, we would expect the first part of the great tribulation of our day also to be close to 28.6% or 31.4% of the whole tribulation period. Indeed, we find that 2,300 days is 27.4% of 8,400 days. We can see the parallelism that exists by the closeness of 27.4% to 28.6% and 31.4%. Later we will discover many proofs in the Bible that show us that the tentative division of 2,100 days as the first part of a total 8,400-day great tribulation period is very accurate.
Thus, we learn that the 8,400 days feature the number 7 (7 x 12 x 100). It also appears to be divided into two parts, the first part being about 30% of the whole time. And because 23 years, which in the Bible frequently identifies with God's wrath, is exactly 8,400 days in length, we are strongly encouraged to believe that the great tribulation period is precisely 8,400 days in length.
2: "Unclaimed - 44.5%"
That's a lot higher than I'd have guessed.
It doe not quite mean what it appears to, the source for the data (ARDA) aggregates counts from the membership rolls of individual churches. So if you are not actually on a church roster (and a lot of casual goers are not) you show up as "unclaimed".
26. Exercise for advanced students:
Make a sentence using the following words - Arse, From, Numbers, Pulled. (10 marks).
My question is why is this particular prophet of doom getting publicity. Does he really have more followers than the next street-preaching loon who thinks that the world will end in 2012 or next Thursday or whatever? Or has the media just latched on to this one at random and then magnified it because all they can do is copy each other?
I'd say Massachusetts commentariat should have a May 21 picnic meetup at World's End, but it's probably going to be crowded.
29: I was wondering that myself. The answer may be that he does have a fairly extensive radio network of over 150 stations. He runs them, does not just appear on them. And from a quick read they have increasingly focused on his teaching exclusively rather than being general christian stations.
Up to the late 1990s, Family Radio endorsed local church attendance but once Camping stated the church age was over[I think is the new interpretation of the 1994 event -- JPS], they are now stating that Christians should NOT be members or attend church services of any type. Today Family Radio produces 95 % of their programming and runs very few outside ministries. Most teaching programs are hosted by Harold Camping himself.
One of the Wikipedia articles had a different calculation:
"According to Camping, the number five equals "atonement", the number ten equals "completeness", and the number seventeen equals "heaven".
Christ is said to have hung on the cross on April 1, 33 AD. The time between April 1, 33 AD and April 1, 2011 is 1,978 years.
If 1,978 is multiplied by 365.2422 days (the number of days in a solar year, not to be confused with the lunar year), the result is 722,449.
The time between April 1 and May 21 is 51 days.
51 added to 722,449 is 722,500.
(5 x 10 x 17)2 or (atonement x completeness x heaven)2 also equals 722,500."
re: 32
I wasn't convinced before, but now ...
Make a sentence using the following words - Arse, From, Numbers, Pulled. (10 marks).
I do love, though, how he managed to fit 23 into his ex-recto number pulling. Maybe he's really an undercover Discordian trying to discredit fundamentalism.
33: It would take more than the apocalypse to get me to drink there.
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Completely irrelevantly, there's a faction of the commentariat who would probably enjoy this, if they haven't already encountered it.
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OT The canton of Zurich just banned the use of German in its kindergarten classes. One more stage in the slow but steady march in the transition of Swiss German(s) into an official language. And this isn't in some backwoods hick mini mountain canton but the one which contains a quarter of the entire population of German (or 'German') speaking Switzerland. The Swiss French in me thinks 'why the fuck should we have to learn German if you won't.'
Calvin married Susie Derkins?
I guess it's a more satisfying epilogue than that ADD strip.
The Swiss French in me thinks...
Just because you cleaned his hotel room doesn't mean you have to let him.
38: I heard that it lost in Zurich city, and won in the neighboring bumfuckia. I also heard the SVP was claiming that in some kindergartens (presumably in the city), they were teaching in 100% German, so the people in bumfuckia panicked over the imaginary yet blatant attack on their Swiss heritage.
Also, is Swiss German that different from regular German? Is it like the difference between Spanish and Italian or more like the difference between British English and regular English?
It's like the difference between Spanish and Italian, except that Swiss German is basically just a spoken language (and really, several different spoken languages).
No wonder the Swiss have so much money. No wasted time reading.
There's a reason why there are no famous Swiss poets, novelists, philosophers...
That's O.K. because there are no famous American cow bell makers.
According to NZZ it was a cantonal initiative and got 54%. Zurich isn't divided into city and rest cantons like Basel so it should apply canton wide regardless of how the city proper voted. Basel-Stadt incidentally just voted down a similar initiative by a narrow margin.
42 What Walt said. I speak German, and I've spent plenty of time in German speaking Switzerland, but I don't understand them and tend to just use French or English. Swiss French on the other hand is just a mild accent, less different from standard French than generic American English is from BBC English.
||I should have waited until after the Rapture to significantly change my hair and get a tattoo so I don't have to hear my mother scream, but anyway. Pixie cut photos in the Flickr pool, tat photos coming next weekend.|>
It involves, among other things, the dates of floods, the signals of numbers in the Bible, multiplication, addition and subtraction thereof.
Oh hey that sounds like the kind of things this guy told me about when I asked the one question any smart person would know never to ask a stranger on the train: so, what makes you want to live off the grid?
47: That's right. I mean that supposedly if you look at the vote by stadt, it lost in the city itself. (The same thing was true of the minaret ban, which passed in the canton, but if you just looked in the city, it would have lost.) It doesn't mean anything politically, but you have to think that the people out in the country just imagined all kinds of crazy things were going on in the city, cats sleeping with dogs, all high-German kindergartens, Christians bowing to mecca five times a day, etc. I couldn't find a map on NZZ, so I don't know if the vote thing is actually true.
In Swiss French, don't they say "huitante" instead of "quatre-vignt"? If so, that's awesome and should be imposed on France. By force if necessary.
I apologize for mispelling "vingt". I have dishonored myself and my ancestors.
I apologize for misspelling "vingt". I have dishonored myself and my ancestors.
I apologize for double-posting. I have dishonored myself and my ancestors.
50: You should just have gotten a tattoo that says "Mom."
In Swiss French, don't they say "huitante" instead of "quatre-vignt"?
They do in Belgian too.
The same thing was true of the minaret ban, which passed in the canton, but if you just looked in the city, it would have lost.
You mean cantons and cities?
like the difference between British English and regular English?
Don't think we didn't notice this.
I knew that, just acknowledging it with the required/expected response.
In Swiss French, don't they say "huitante" instead of "quatre-vignt"?
Perhaps they are not counting but merely agreeing with their aunt.
58: The minaret ban won in Zurich canton, but lost in Zurich city. It also lost in Basel city (which is a separate canton). I don't know how the split looked in other cantons.
In Swiss French, don't they say "huitante" instead of "quatre-vignt"?
Depends where: In Geneva eighty is said in the French fashion, the rest of the French speaking areas are Belgian. All French speaking cantons use septante and nonante.
Combining evangelicalism and the existence or non- of Swiss writers, Karl Barth and Hans Küng were/are Swiss, but much of their respective academic careers were/have been spent in Germany.
The May 21 billboards and other advertising remind me of the time I noticed my neighbor on a cross-country flight reading a Scofield Reference Bible. I did not engage him in conversation, but wondered whether he found it comfort reading for the purposes of air travel.
Swiss German doesn't get written much? I remember a couple of occasions when I was handed menus written in Swiss German and English. The Swiss German had double-ü's and other weirdness.
Ah. But Wikipedia tells me that was probably just Swiss Standard German, which has different orthography from normal German but isn't Swiss German.
This gives me a chance to link to one of my favorite sites on the whole internet: It's the end of the world as we know it...
GODAMIT IT'S "SCHWYZERTUUTSCH" not "SWISS GERMAN". WOULD YOU CALL THE SUOMI PEOPLE "FINNISH"? "OJIBE" for the CHIPPEWA?
By an application of the theory of relativity to the taste of readers, today in Germany I am called a German man of science, and in England I am represented as a Swiss Jew. If I come to be represented as a bête noire, the descriptions will be reversed, and I shall become a Swiss Jew for the Germans and a German man of science for the English!
WOULD YOU CALL THE SUOMI PEOPLE "FINNISH"?
Kullervo, noooooooooooooooo!
70: And here I thought you were a Princetonian.
WOULD YOU CALL THE SUOMI PEOPLE "FINNISH"?
Because they live in Finland?
More like Baseldütsch, Baslerdüütsch, Baseldeutsch, Baseldytsch and Züritüütsch), and, and... They not only have multiple, quite distinct dialects, the individual speakers can't even agree on how to pronounce the name of their own dialect.
66/7: I think double-ü is actual Swiss German, rather than Swiss Standard German. Swiss Standard German is things like 'always use ss instead of ß'. I guess menus will be in a mix of Swiss German and regular German, since they'll use words like 'glace' for ice cream instead of 'eis'. Books and newspapers will all be in high German.
More like Baseldütsch, Baslerdüütsch, Baseldeutsch, Baseldytsch and Züritüütsch....
Racist.
OT: I hope that I am not the only person who finds the History Channel's various documentaries "exploring" the Nazis' "possible" use of extraterrestrial technologies in egregiously poor taste and borderline intellectually dishonest (inter alia, the Nazis lost the war).
50: You look adorable. I love it.
76: Because alien technology sucks ass, Flip. Why do you think the extraterrestrials always crash? Say what you will about United Airlines, but at least they usually land.
Even better for safety, US Air doesn't usually take off.
Anyhow, just wanted to point out that fundamentalists and evangelicals are not coterminous--there's even some disagreement concerning whether fundamentalists are a subset of evangelicals, or whether they're entirely distinct. Resources available here!
I definitely blur the distinction between being fundamentalist and evangelical and let's just throw Southern Baptist into this list of words I use synonymously, too.
Is this correct: fundies are Biblical literalists, Evangelicals are the born-again types, and Southern Baptists are one denomination in the intersection?
Also, I always assumed "JennyRobot" meant you were in computer science or something. I was way off.
re: 76
They lost the war because Stalin _was_ an alien, dude. Churchill, too, clearly. And it never occur to you to wonder what FDR was hiding under the blanket?
Zurich German:
«Isch s Hoochtüütsch würkli so schwèèr? S häisst, s Hoochtüütsch seg e Fremdspraach. Und koomisch: Me säit Hoochtüütsch und mèrkt gaar nöd, das me sälber au Hoochtüütsch redt, nu e chli andersch als di Tüütsche. Daa hät mi e Frau z Griecheland, woni i de Fèrie gsii bi, ime groosse Hotelgang ine gfrööget: ‹Sii, wo gaats da dure zum Schwümmbaad?› Si hät gmäint, ich seg en Tüütsche. Und miich hät de Tüüfel gschtoche, und i ha zruggfrööget: ‹Wollen Sii gogen schwümmen?› Druf hämmer beedi müese lache. Ja, so gaats äim halt öppedie, hämmer zäme gmäint. Me findt de Rank nöd immer mit em Hoochtüütsch. Und mängisch, wämers hät wele bsunders guet mache, ischs ganz schief usechoo. Und druufabe hät si der äint oder ander gsäit: ‹I probiers gar nüme.› Daa hockts! Aber die Mäinig dörfed mer nöd laa iiriisse, will soo schwèèr, wies schiint, ischs au wider nööd. Das wämmer grad zäige.
I have no idea what "Daa hockts!" means, but it is clearly a great interjection.
Southern Baptists consider themselves evangelical. "Fundamentalist" and "literalist" are not words most of us would use.
Rereading the original post, I don't think I misused "fundamentalism" or "Evangelical".
"Conservative Christian is probably the best label for us outsiders to use, since it picks out what is relevant for us, the far-right politics, and ignores doctrinal and practice issues only of interest to insiders.
There's even an evangelical wing of the dear old Church of England. They tend to be happy-clappy, minimally liturgical and, in most but not all cases, socially conservative. But still into the apostolic succession and bishops and stuff.
I think "fundamentalist" used to be a term used as a self-descriptor by a bunch of conservative Protestant sects as recently as the eighties, but it's turned into a negative term used mostly by outsiders to describe the same people. "Evangelical" has always been much broader.
I'm just baffled by its muzak-like dominance in this part of the country. Why is super-intense-religiosity considered the beige-oatmeal of interior decorating, of the everyday public sphere here?
Fundamentalist was originally a self-description of people who subscribed to "The Fundamentals". I suspect it's used rather loosely these days, especially by people who aren't conservative Christians.
I'm using 'baffled' to mean that I already know why. Just that alien-like unfamiliarity with things you understand.
"Literalist" and "fundamentalist" imply a single dogmatic reading of the Bible, which is the opposite of Baptist doctrine, which is that there can be no priesthood, no authority.
92. It's one of Fred Clark's recurring themes that the SBC have abandoned that doctrine in practice, by accepting the authority of prominent individuals within the organisation and applying sanctions to people who question this. I don't know enough about the SBC to comment, but if he's right, they may be both literalist and fundamentalist, though at a price.
The Baptist doctrine has drifted away from the Baptist Impact on everyday people, though. People certainly give their pastor has a ton of authority.
And yes, of course, if you ask a random Baptist if they're [insert extremist term here] they'll probably agree because Baptists love stirring shit and feeling like countercultural extremists.
95: And recipes that use cream of mushroom soup.
Whoso beset him round
With dismal stories
Do but themselves confound;
His strength the more is.
No lion can him fright,
He'll with a giant fight,
He will have a right
To be a pilgrim.
93, 94: It's not my experience with the SBC. We've seen excellent, terrible, and in-between pastors in my lifetime, but the standard measure of quality in an SBC pastor is teaching interpretive methodologies for approaching the Bible and suggesting some possible readings based on those methods, but they're not supposed to be telling anyone how to live or what to think. I know it happens. In my parents' church, it resulted (after about 5 years, sadly) in a pastor getting fired. I always hated that guy, but I was glad when the church finally came to their senses.
Conservative Christian is probably the best label for us outsiders to use, since it picks out what is relevant for us, the far-right politics, and ignores doctrinal and practice issues only of interest to insiders
For some purposes, sure. But for others, not so much - eg there's a fair chunk of US catholicism that is conservative but not creationist.
97: Methodists love cream of mushroom soup. We're fried chicken people.
There's even an evangelical wing of the dear old Church of England
All Evangelicals come from the Church of England, more or less.
100: I'm particularly thinking of the role of megachurches. The few times I went to a Southern Baptist church with an ex-boyfriend - his hometown one, and a few when he was shopping around for a new one - they all seemed like they were aging and dwindling, and being undermined by the gigantic televised heavily funded productions.
All Evangelicals come from the Church of England, more or less.
That, Sir, I find, is what a very great many of your Evangelicals cannot help.
102: I knew I was wrong as soon as hit "post". People around us had all kinds of cream of mushroom stuff when I was a kid, but there were no Baptists in any significant numbers in our area.
92, 95: I believe, though, that back when 'fundamentalist' was a less negatively perceived term, it was used as a self-descriptor largely by conservative Baptists and Presbyterians -- it's not true that 'fundamentalists' were non-Baptist Protestants and Baptists reliably rejected the term.
93: It might be worth pointing out that Southern Baptist churches are all autonomous, so the extent to which a church follows the SBC doctrines depends a lot on its pastor. One incident I remember from when I was growing up was when the SBC was pushing a boycott of Disney because Walt Disney World didn't treat its gay employees like shit, or something along those lines; our pastor's only comment when someone asked him what he thought was something like "what you do is up to you, but I'm taking my daughter to see The Lion King [or whatever movie was out at the time] tonight."
108: If he can think of a politically palatable reason for boycotting Disney, I'm all ears.
104: they all seemed like they were aging and dwindling
This is very true. Honestly, I think it happens in the disconnect between the Baptist commitment to scholarship and the fucking idiocy and cruelty it takes to be associated with a bunch of racist motherfuckers who are famous for hating gays and women. If you're that fucking dumb, you join a megachurch where no one is going to ask you about the Hebrew root for "mud." And if you're smart enough to do real Bible study on your own (which a lot of Baptists are), you're going to maybe start questioning your affiliations. It's a real crisis in the Baptist community.
And frankly, Baptist church is not a time when you throw your hands in the air and scream "praise Jesus" and watch a little rock band sing a song about virginity. It's not "fun." There are business meetings and prayer groups. In Sunday School, you might be doing a year-long study of the minor prophets. Service involves listening to an explication of a few metaphors with the history of conflicting commentary by various Christian thinkers. And you sing a few good songs. Megachurches peel people off by offering a lot more for sexy singles and young parents.
108. Yes, this is why Clark argues against the SBC as an organisation and not against Southern Baptists as such.
In Sunday School, you might be doing a year-long study of the minor prophets.
I really should have done something before that term took hold.
108: Did I know that you're SB? Hello!
The same thing happened in my church. Some members might take up causes the pastor doesn't even care about; it's their church as much as it is his.
I get the impression that some segments get around the ban on personal authority by hammering so hard on certain positions are direct, unambiguous Biblical commands that questioning them is set up as like questioning the Bible?
114: Yeah, they say that, but it's always your right as a church member to call bullshit. It's a really frequent rhetorical ploy among Baptists, and one that almost certainly signals that someone has a super-stupid reading of scripture.
29, 31- My question is why is this particular prophet of doom getting publicity. Does he really have more followers than the next street-preaching loon
No, it's the billboards. He's bought a shit-ton of them, especially around the bay area. I'd commented on this back in the previous thread of great contention. See, if you don't follow my links you lose touch with the zeitgeist this sort of inanity.
I still like the Overcoming Faith Christian Center.
110: I remember sermons as fun because you actually had to think. I could totally get behind the approach to scripture. I still think it's pretty much the only one that's defensible from a theological standpoint unless either you go with the Catholic approach based as much in tradition as scripture or you're going to get all new-agey and might as well be a Unitarian at that point (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Haven't run into the droning televangelists too much in hotel breakfast rooms, although I have turned off/muted the communal set a few times if no one is paying attention to it. Usually it's the Today Show or some equally inane competitor. Occasionally it will be ESPN maundering on about Kobe or baseball...dispiriting.
117: Sure, but who laughs at stupid puns and other peoples' honest mistakes in wording.
Would somebody please pay attention to me? PLEASE?
118: Oh me too. I remember in the late 80's, early 90's, the church was trying to get the pastor to abandon his Greek word study lessons and embrace a more amped-band approach to services, and he was like, ugh, y'all are really gonna do this aren't you? I had his back though. (I was like 10.)
113 108: Did I know that you're SB? Hello!
Less of a formative experience for me than for you, it seems. I didn't go to Sunday school much after age 11 or so, though I did attend Sunday morning worship services semi-regularly until I graduated high school.
80: Nope, I'm in the second-most dismal of the social sciences. "Robot" is how my husband jokingly mispronounces my last name (which doesn't really sound anything like "robot").
I only brought up the fundamentalist/evangelical distinction because one of my coauthors and I had a prolonged disagreement on the matter, and I was right (but he was tenured).
The second most-dismal? Forensic pathology?
I was right (but he was tenured) sounds like mouseover text to me.
126: Forensic pathology is not a social science.
Maybe sociology or psychology.
To my ear, "Fundamentalism" implies a strong commitment to biblical innerrancy (not just biblical authority), which is an awfully silly doctrine, very closely tied to conservative politics, and also one that is not very widely held among Protestants.
I would say, in its loosest American sense, "evangelical" refers to churches whose style of worship and/or proselytyzing derives in some way from Billy Graham, or any commitment to conversion and informal worship. In that sense, there are evangelical Catholics, and my own liberal anglican church has an evangelical flavor.
There's a very liberal, inclusive megachurch in LA that's interesting; they use their Hollywood connections to have actually good rock music and visual presentations, etc.
I would get on my high horse about how the Southern Baptists are those baptists, specifically, who affilitated with a pro-slavery organization when faced with a choice, but then again there was a Confederate General who was a sitting Episcopalian Bishop, and one of the major (and currently quite liberal) seminaries is at Sewanee, which was kind of a big retirement home for Confederate generals and an old south theme park.
I imagine that motels and hotels are particularly likely to advertise their religious connections in order to remove the taint of sleaze -- we're not one of those kinds of hotels.
Essear and I grew up where almost everyone is Southern Baptist. Though I still don't know specifically where Essear's from. I just remember a conversation about Statewide Nerd Camp that established we were from the same (wide) state.
22: I've got to write a post about this for Fistful of Euros. Shorter me: pretty bad luck for the Socialists as the polls had him winning comprehensively, although far better than him getting done for rape during the campaign or, ffs, in office. However, unlikely it will do Sarkozy any good (possibly even some harm as the two men are remarkably similar in public image).
Expect a lot of fallout about his past and possibly about other politicians as well, which could mean further explosions almost anywhere. I suspect this may be an important moment in the history of sexuality in France, more so than in politics classically speaking.
PS internal politics is horrible at the best of times and there will be a round of neurotics about this, but eventually they'll have the damn' primary and the leadership question will be settled one way or another. Hard to say how DSK's supporters in the party will break - a lot of them, especially the ones elite enough to know him, are massively in denial. Typically, though, they stretch from the centre to the soft left, and they follow their leader in despising Laurent Fabius. So he will lose out relatively as the DSK vote is spread between Hollande/Aubry/Royal roughly equally (in the absence of some other factor).
Royal has lost once already, although she gives a good speech and has a regional power base; Hollande is a personality vacuum; Aubry was highly rated as acting leader (to general surprise) and as a minister in the last PS government, and has a power base up north as mayor of Lille.
I imagine that motels and hotels are particularly likely to advertise their religious connections in order to remove the taint of sleaze -- we're not one of those kinds of hotels.
This was a regular old Comfort Inn.
Also I've got like three posts backed up for today, so just let me know when you want something new.
I'd roll one out -- I'm writing a brief, which means I'm itching to get into a timewasting argument, and this thread has slowed way down.
Although it doesn't really have a built-in argument waiting to unfold. You'll have to troll.
Oh, but it does look eminently trollable.
My understanding of the SBC is that there has been a 50-years ongoing struggle between "conservatives" and moderates with the Conservative Resurgence basically taking over at the 1979 convention (although as folks have pointed out, per the structure of Baptism the effect on individual churches would vary a lot). More recently the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message statement seems to have moved the SBC further towards a more authoritarian view of the faith.
2000: The SBC adopted a new Baptist Faith and Message statement. Baptist historian Dr. Walter Shurden says this 2000 version, used as a creedal statement by SBC agencies, elevates the Bible to a position above that of Jesus himself and downplays the doctrines of priesthood of each believer and local church autonomy. Conservatives contend that the statement accurately reflects the beliefs of most Southern Baptists.
elevates the Bible to a position above that of Jesus himself
This seems ripe for fanaticism.
130: Essear and I grew up where almost everyone is Southern Baptist.
Per this map, the Ohio River does seem to form a significant boundary across most of that state (although the eastern Kentucky hills are less Baptist-y). It's a good set of maps (% by county) for a lot of denomination in the US.
139: Of course that may merely be the opinion of Dr. Walter Shirden, here's some of what the SBC themselves had to say. A lot of it is pretty deep in the weeds.
130: Southwest Jeff/rs/n County (suburb of Lou/sv/lle).
I'm not really sure the Google-proofing there serves any purpose, but it seemed appropriate.
131 Given Royal's failure last time round, and the fact that I despise Hollande, I'm hoping for Aubry. I went from no opinion on Hollande other than 'ambitious cipher, generic party hack' to disliking him when he sabotaged Royal's campaign because he was upset at her dumping him over his serial cheating. While I don't care about the latter, the former shows a serious lack of professionalism. I do find it sort of funny/admirable that in the last campaign both candidates were being cheated on by their SO's and nobody cared beyond amused titillation and speculation on how it would affect the relationship between Royal's campaign and the central party bureaucracy run by her [ex] partner.
140: I'd seen the main maps (including the SBC map) from that study before, but some of the smaller denominations I hadn't seen before. In particular, I'm shocked at how many "restoration movement christians" there are. I'd always thought of them as very fringe.
Here is a more detailed analysis of the 2000 statement from a critical perspective. The 2000 statement added (prior statement was from 1963):
While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.as well as a discussion of the family which included this bit with an Orwellian use of "equal":
The husband and wife are of equal worth before God, since both are created in God's image. The marriage relationship models the way God relates to His people. A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect, and to lead his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.
"Robot" is how my husband jokingly mispronounces my last name (which doesn't really sound anything like "robot").
I'm now trying to figure out what sort of Polish name could look like it should be pronounced 'Robot' but is completely different.
Imagine italics tags around that first sentence.
144: I had noted that as well and meant to look it up. I cannot find an explanation for the groupings of the data on the maps. I wonder if they are using a broad definition such as the following:
Strictly speaking, the Restoration Movement is a Christian reform movement that arose in the United States during the Second Great Awakening in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century. It rejected the idea of reform of any previous tradition and emphasized the idea of a direct renewal of the Christian church by God.
The doctrinal differences among these groups can sometimes be very large; they include, among others, the Churches of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Christadelphians, Latter Day Saints, Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah's Witnesses.
148: Those are some really huge doctrinal differences.
148: Except for the Latter Day Saints, of course.
The mapmakers are using a narrower definition "Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, and Churches of Christ." The only one of those denominations I was familiar with is "Churches of Christ." I thought they were heretics on account of the baptismal regeneration thing and generally that they seemed to be guessing what early churches did without a whole lot of evidence. But I only knew a couple people in that denomination and I didn't realize it had a significant following.
Hrm, wikipedia seems to think there's only a couple million people in those denominations in the US, so I guess it's more that they have a geographical base in areas without many people than that there's a lot of them.
But to unf+'s point, you probably need to combine a number of those type denominations to get anywhere near the numbers they report for them.
151: D'oh, didn't see the label right on the map itself!
152: Yeah, had not thought of that--and they do look to be primarily rural counties. The tyranny of land area in the spatial presentation of data: an ongoing issues. All the same, you can look at some slices of the data at the state level here.
OT: The American right's favorite Belgians are pushing through a law to erase all guilty verdicts for collaboration with the Nazis during WWII and related crimes. Or as the law puts it 'postwar repression' and 'supposed crimes'. But they hate Muslims and love Israel [and the Holocaust].
See Deuxième guerre mondiale : un projet d'amnistie fait polémique en Belgique
The American right has noticed Belgains exist?
Well, the right wing blogosphere has, and has expressed their undying love for the Vlaams Belang who came out of the pro-Nazi Flemish radical right. It was the proximate cause of Little Green Footballs turning pro-Democrat and anti-anti-Muslim. Malkin, Atlas Shrugged, etc. have worked together with them.
Wait, Belgians exist? Did you mean Flemings?
I've been to Flem. Nice place, just watch where you step.
And wash your hands after you leave.
131.--Hard to say how DSK's supporters in the party will break - a lot of them, especially the ones elite enough to know him, are massively in denial.
I read through a number of comments on le monde's website (I know, I know) and was genuinely shocked at the outright unwillingness to believe a) the victim's story or b) that DSK did anything wrong. More than a few commenters blamed the whole story on American Puritanism. (!!!)
I hope he is found guilty, the judge throws the book at him, and all of France has long, painful discussions about sexual violence.
Presumably that's the same variety of American Puritanism that so unjustly persecuted Polanski.
161 -- I actually think that some of the American commentary is a little unfair to France. France has a somewhat different sense of appropriate levels of workplace sexual behavior, but it's not like people aren't shocked by actual rape or that France doesn't have feminists. IMO most of the tolerance towards Polanski was based on misreporting of the facts (also a big problem here, and by here I mean Hollywood).
(France has a different problem of an incredibly insular political culture and over-strong libel laws, which this scandal does reveal).
This is all from an amateur Francophile, not someone with real knowledge, of course.
I've definitely gotten the impression from people who have spent way more time in France than I have, that people aren't actually shocked by rape so long as the person doing it is a "great man" of some sort. One of my friends (who has french family and a french significant other) was saying that talking to french people about Polanski made her question whether she could ever live in France.
Here are some headlines:
Le monde: "The day that plunged DSK into torment." "A 'DSKgate' might not be so improbable in France these days."
Liberation: "DSK in prison, next hearing 20 May." "In New York, a difficult audience for DSK." "'He's not the kind of person to flee a crime scene.'" "DSK in handcuff: the shocking image." And finally a semi-sensible headline: "'DSK's past doesn't do him any favors.'"
Ok, but none of those articles remotely make light of the rape, except for arguably an odd survey in Le Monde of unrelated American sex scandals.
And I don't think American headlines would be much different if, say, Newt Gingrich was arrested on a rape charge (a boy can dream).
I can't really tar the French generally with this, but the earlier Banon thing sounds as if it were an open secret -- people who knew him knew about it. And I really am disturbed that being credibly accused of attempted rape didn't have a negative effect on his political career. Like I said on the other thread, that's not sleazy, that's something entirely different.
Yeah, but I'd chalk that up more to "incredibly insular French political culture" than "general tolerance of rape.". The cover up wasn't that the woman wasn't outraged or thought that it wouldn't be a big deal; it was that her sleazy mom convinced her to drop it for careerist reasons.
I don't want to go to far with this, just push back a bit on the notion that ordinary French people are really just "dommage, c'est la vie" on the topic of actual rape.
And, further to 169, a strong French sense that private sexual lives are irrelevant to suitability for political office-- a trait that's not at all entirely negative and also not the same thing as being cool with rape generally.
171: Considering credible allegations of sexual assault part of one's 'private sexual life' is pretty much the same thing as being cool with rape generally.
I shouldn't get too heated here -- I've gotten the impression that the Banon accusation, while not taken to the authorities, was common knowledge in French political circles, and considered both credible and in character for DSK, who had behaved similarly on other occasions. But I'm not sure where I got that impression, and if it's wrong, I'm wrong -- if people in the French political world really didn't know that he was sexually aggressive to the point of attempted rape, then they have nothing to be ashamed of.
On the other hand, if they (the unspecified French political power structure) did know (in the way that you know things about other people by being credibly told them rather than proved in a court of law) that he'd sexually assaulted one or more women in the past, and still considered it his private sexual life, that's wrong.
People have known roughly that (for some versions of sexual assault) about Arnol Schwarzenegger for years (in his past, not his present) and were more or less cool with it.
I've been getting pretty heated* about this because my experience in France was sort of precisely that ordinary people were pretty cool with, if not violent rape in the absolutely classic sense, some pretty awful forms of sexual assault that should be bright-line immoral.
* Tbperfectlyh, it may be more schadenfreudaliciousness than actually anger.
Also that Congressman in South Dakota.
French people did seem pretty tolerant of groping in crowds.
I'd forgotten the accusations against Ahhnold. It's maddening searching for them -- everything I find lumps together 'womanizing' and sexual assault. Not, even remotely, the same thing. I'm preaching to the choir here, but why is that not obvious?
178: I think a lot of people see a substantial set of behavior as clearly wrong but would not call it sexual assault. Since the media tend to be both lowest common denominator driven and cowards things that fall into this zone or near it are unlikely to be called sexual assault even though they are. Also if there's any chance that the person might sue the media will play it safe, and they have to take into account that the person might choose to sue knowing full well they'll never win, just to cost the paper or TV station enough money to make them hold back (and/or to make it look like retaliation if more allegations or better proof becomes available). And of course it does not pay to underestimate the power that threats of cutting off access to a person who is newsworthy for other reasons can have, especially if the person making the threat is from a PR firm with lots of important clients rather than just the accused himself.
Having friends who work(ed) in national news media has made me see the news in a whole different light. Seriously - the MSM are mostly whores, and not in the good money for sex way.
179: Yeah, but I'm not so much worried about the media. Libel's a real worry, and not having accusers willing to go public is a problem.
If it's true that his co-workers, the French political power structure, whatever, knew that whether they wanted to call it sexual assault or not, that he had a propensity for non-consensual sexual aggression toward women who ended up having to literally fight him off, and that wasn't a disqualification for a political career, that bothers me.
Considering credible allegations of sexual assault part of one's 'private sexual life' is pretty much the same thing as being cool with rape generally
Bhuh? What about "sure, it might mean he's a terrible person, but not in a way that reflects on his job qualifications"? That's not "cool with rape", and isn't "pretty much the same" as it.
"I don't have the evidence to take it to the police, but I'm pretty sure George takes out his frustrations by beating up homeless men with a lead pipe on occasion. Still, that doesn't have anything to do with his job qualifications."
I'd call that 'being cool with beating people up with lead pipes'.
It's really difficult to find lead pipes these days. It's a good time to be homeless, I suppose.
In reality, my guess is that people "knew" that DSK was generally sleazy and somewhat sexually aggressive, but not a violent rapist.
In any case, it's now clear that being publically exposed as a potential rapist is disqualifying for political office in France.
To be fair to France, in the US a lot of people don't consider being a rapist disqualifying for "really important jobs" like playing quarterback.
In reality, my guess is that people "knew" that DSK was generally sleazy and somewhat sexually aggressive, but not a violent rapist.
I'm hammering on this, but anyone who knew the details of the Banon accusation knew that he was willing to attempt violent rape -- that in that case he didn't successfully complete the rape doesn't change what it says about his character.
186: To be fair, we don't get to vote on that.
Right, but the point is that she suppressed the details. People might have known that something went on, but not exactly what. Some may have been willful blindness, to be sure.
She did describe the incident in detail on TV in 2002. His name was bleeped out of the broadcast, but I'm sort of figuring that on that basis the French political world knew the details.
Sorry, it happened in 2002, she went on TV in 2007.
185.1 That was my impression and judgment, where 'aggressive' means that he would routinely make passes at any woman he found attractive, regardless of their relationship or circumstances, including subordinates.
185.2 That seems to be the majority viewpoint, but judging from the Guardian op-ed, some French people see nothing wrong with attempted rape, and feel that is a mark of their moral superiority over puritan Anglo-Saxons.
146: It's a pretty uncommon last name in Poland, as it happens. As for the US, there are only two family groups with my last name: my own, and then some folks who emigrated from Poland much longer ago. My dad and I assume that they are somehow related to us, but we don't know how. I'm guessing the relevant records were either destroyed during WWII (likely), stuck in some basement somewhere in Lviv (less likely), or moved to somewhere in Wroclaw (not entirely impossible).
Back on topic, I find it fascinating that two of the most significant evangelicals in US politics--Sam Brownback and Chris Smith--are both Catholic.
Which makes it roughly equivalent to accusations brought against Clinton, with the exception that DSK was open about being a womanizer. I'm not at all defending the guy, who is clearly a sociopath, but I don't think you can get from his reputation as a sleazeball to the French being "cool with rape."
180: That bothers me too. I can sort of see how the combination of self interest and the desire to see one's friends in the best light might work in that direction. Still, you'd kind of hope that people would say or do something. Perhaps there were some who just chose to dissociate themselves, or who did try to do something but ended up getting buried by the much larger and less ethical group that stood to benefit from their association with him and didn't have moral qualms.
Also 182 works better if George's job involves occasionally being in circumstances where he might readily engineer some time alone with a homeless guy and a lead pipe.
194 to 190-91.
What is the Guardian op-Ed?
I wonder if Bernard Henri Levy has said something pompous and stupid about this. Probably yes!
roughly equivalent to accusations brought against Clinton,
You think? From his wife's goddaughter? Certainly, if people just believed that it was a smear job and nothing of the sort ever happened, I wouldn't have a problem with their lack of reaction; I pretty much discounted the accusations of sexual violence (as opposed to consensual sexual behavior) against Clinton because they were coming from the same people also calling him a mass murderer and a wholesale drug smuggler.
But yeah, if the Banon story wasn't believed, then that bothers me much less. Given that it seems to have been known, what was bothering me was the idea that people in power believed that he did that sort of thing and just didn't give a damn.
I may be underrating the
Ooooh, yes he has. Can't figure out how to link to it on the Iphone. Key argument: how could a chambermaid have come in alone when "everyone knows" that maids in fancy New York hotels work in teams of two or three?
194 linked here (This may be the first time I get to say RTFA)
I love the theory that it was an impromptu anti-semitic reaction the maid seeing his circumcised penis when he walked out of the bathroom. Related possibility, it's an al Qaeda plot: she's a Latina, he's a strongly pro-Israel Jew, and as everybody knows the US Latino population is being recruited en masse by Bin Laden. The things you learn when reading newspaper comment threads (no, US ones aren't unusually bad)
200: Wait! I read that she was from Ghana "and who would take the word of an African immigrant over that of DSK?!"
But DSK is an African immigrant himself.
198: Voilà: BHL
It's preternaturally stupid.
202: But not the poor, brown, female, single-mother, American kind, teraz. Sheesh!
Oh man that thing in 198 is so great. I wish it were translated so as to share its glorious stupidity with th. Entire blog.
Et je veux pas non plus entrer dans les considérations de basse psychologie - comme on dit basse police - qui, prétendant pénétrer dans la tête de l'intéressé et observant, par exemple, que le numéro de la fameuse chambre (2806) correspondait à la date (28.06) de l'ouverture des primaires socialistes dont il est l'incontestable favori,
damn... if it were anybody else than BHL I'd assume deliberate sarcasm. [the room number is 2806, the primaries are on June 28... clearly a setup]
'en veux, ce matin, au juge américain qui, en le livrant à la foule des chasseurs d'images qui attendaient devant le commissariat de Harlem, a fait semblant de penser qu'il était un justiciable comme un autre.
Damn American judge who treats DSK like he would any other defendant.
I wouldn't have thought it possible for my opinion of Bernard Henri Levy to get any lower, but... This is what comes from choosing your public intellectuals based on whether they look sexy on TV (Does he still always appear in an immaculate white shirt unbuttoned down to his navel?)
I mean the linked piece in 203. I've already shared my glorious stupidity with the entire blog.
(Does he still always appear in an immaculate white shirt unbuttoned down to his navel?)
Marty Peretz also specializes in that. Relevant? Doubtful.
BHL: J'en veux à un système judiciaire que l'on appelle pudiquement « accusatoire » pour dire que n'importe quel quidam peut venir accuser n'importe quel autre de n'importe quel crime - ce sera à l'accusé de démontrer que l'accusation était mensongère, sans fondement.
"I resent a justice system, humbly called "accusatory" [adversarial, perhaps?], which is to say that any old schmuck can show up to accuse anyone else of any crime--it would be up to the accused to demonstrate that the accusal was a lie without foundation."
J'en veux à tous ceux qui accueillent avec complaisance le témoignage de cette autre jeune femme, française celle-là, qui prétend avoir été victime d'une tentative de viol du même genre ; qui s'est tue pendant huit ans ; mais qui, sentant l'aubaine, ressort son vieux dossier et vient le vendre sur les plateaux télé.
"I resent all those who complaisantly welcome the testimony of this other young woman, this one French, who claims to have been victim of an attempted rape of the same sort, who was silent for 8 years, but who, sensing a potential windfall, has taken out her old files and has taken to selling them on television plateaus."
209: "As nobody who hasn't been living in a Faraday cage on Ellesmere Island for the past four days no longer knows"...
you might want to rein in your double negatives there a bit, Alex. Maybe "As everybody who hasn't been living in a Faraday cage on Ellesmere Island for the past four days now knows".
Probably pwned in another thread, but Ahhnuld has just admitted fathering a child with a member of his domestic staff.
212: Nope, looks like you pwned me by 7 minutes.
215
Here is an account of the rape accusation against Clinton.
