I just misread the title of this post as "Modern Love, Transcranial Dating Edition", which would be either much more awesome or much more disturbing.
Just think Scanners as a romantic comedy.
Transcranial Dating
You laugh, but it really *was* a big step for me when I started dating women that existed outside of my own cranium.
Or is that where you figure out someone's age by sawing their head in half and counting the rings?
When I was in high school and one of my cousins heard the ethnicity of the girl I was dating, she asked "Does she speak English?" I was flabbergasted by that one.
The version of this with which I'm most familiar is sort of the reverse of Heebie's example -- (completely non-observant) Jewish guys dating non-Jewish girls and the whole thing becoming very fraught as they moved along.
"So, I understand you're an atheist" - addressed to ajay's dad by the man who would not, in the end, become ajay's maternal grandfather
I had a brief fling with a Muslim girl whose father would have beaten her (with her mother's approval) had he found out she was seeing a non-Muslim. OTOH the guy my sister dated for the longest period prior to meeting her husband was a Muslim and my parents were fine with it.
My parents would have been horrified if I grew up to be racist, but they're pretty racist themselves. They waited until there was a danger of my ever dating before explaining to me that interracial dating is "always a mistake."
"But you taught me not to discriminate."
"Yes, well. We want your babies to look like you, and with that blondey head, just about anyone will 'cover over' your looks."
"What? I wasn't planning on--"
"Especially Japanese. Your father and I are irrationally afraid of Japanese people."
Aaaaand scene.
12: Did you promise them that you'd marry someone translucent?
Also We need to know about ask about 'speaking' Greek/French/Russian .
9: I think I've mentioned it before, but my oldest sister was the first in the family to cross the religious line in that Bridget-loves-Bernie way. My parents were upset at first, because that just wasn't done, but then they learned that my now-BiL's parents, Holocaust survivors from Poland who were sheltered as children by Catholic families, were more upset, and that helped to get everyone to chill out.
13: I told them it was easy because I'm not going to marry or have kids with anyone at all ARE YOU HAPPY NOW? Except I'm not resentful; I never wanted to.
15: the holocaust soothes all pain.
15: I saw that movie with Hepburn and Tracy!
I think my mom has long given up on her campaign to sway me back towards the side of Cathol, let alone holding out hope that I end up marrying someone Cathol-inclined. But I also suspect she has designs on indoctrinating any future offspring, which is kind of creepy to think about.
I'm the Asian half of a transracial couple. My first meeting with my in-laws consisted of them quizzing me about whether or not my parents would have a problem with my (Caucasian) wife. Pointing out that my father was currently married to my Caucasian stepmother didn't seem to allay their fears too much. (They've since, of course, quit worrying about that so far as I know.)
I'm terribly curious whether my experience is common, i.e. potential racial concerns are couched as "we think the other side is more racist than us."
BR's dad is sad that she is with a liberal.
I think my mom has long given up on her campaign to sway me back towards the side of Cathol, let alone holding out hope that I end up marrying someone Cathol-inclined. But I also suspect she has designs on indoctrinating any future offspring, which is kind of creepy to think about.
OT: It looks fairly certain that my son will go to the school that is affiliated with/adjoins the Catholic church that routinely protests my dad. Maybe it will toughen him up ala My Name is Sue.
I had a friend with a math Ph.D. who married a Chinese woman. I asked him how her parents reacted, and he said. "They insisted that she marry a Chinese man, but their definition of Chinese includes people with Ph.D.s."
I'd guess our marriage isn't inter-racial as such but I'm an English-speaking Scot married to a Czech-speaking slav.* Her family seem to like me fine, although I think they'd like me less if we were ever able to discuss politics.
* even using a word like 'slav' I feel like I'm quoting from a 1930s newspaper article.
The idea that my parents would have any opinion about the racial/cultural/ethnic background of anyone I was going to be with would be laughable, though. They might struggle if I was with a Tory, I suppose.
22
It looks fairly certain that my son will go to the school that is affiliated with/adjoins the Catholic church that routinely protests my dad. Maybe it will toughen him up ala My Name is Sue.
Why does a church protest your dad?
I know my mother, at least, would have been pretty chuffed if I'd wound up staying with my Jewish ex. Her family would not have been. Although it's frankly extraordinary how high I've risen in her mother's estimation after the point at which she no longer had to contemplate me shtupping her daughter.
I think there is something to that "you know we have no objection, of course, but we hate to think of how his/her family will treat you" deal. Seems like that trope pops up in popular culture quite frequently, and I've heard several friends describe similar conversations.
"Her family" referring to the ex's Jewish family, obviously.
27: The usual babykilling reasons.
At Passover when I was twenty or so the question came up of whether my dad wanted me to marry a Jew. He said, "I'll just be happy if he marries a woman," at which we all merrily jumped down his throat for being homophobic.
My sister married a Japanese man, thus bringing into viability her longtime plan to have an Asian baby, which plan had until that time revolved around a kidnapping. He hasn't had any rough stuff with my immediate family, although he can't really drink Scotch with my dad because of the whole allergy thing. There's a way in which certain members of my extended family haven't always been super-inclusive of him, but those members are assholes in general, so race isn't necessarily a huge factor.
I would say the biggest culture clash came at their wedding, when we all got instructions to go easy with the physical contact with his family and then blithely hugged the fuck out of them. The high point was the look on his mother's face when she found herself being lifted up in a chair for the hora.
9: The version of this with which I'm most familiar is sort of the reverse of Heebie's example -- (completely non-observant) Jewish guys dating non-Jewish girls and the whole thing becoming very fraught as they moved along.
This is the version I'm most familiar with as well, with me as the non-Jewish female. It wasn't the family who seemed to have the problem, though, but the Jewish datee.
Ugh. That's an impressively cringeworthy piece for something I more or less agree with. Possibly I'm just having trouble with the idea that someone white got a book deal out of how special she is for having made a go of marriage with a brown person in 21st century LA.
Also, a dog bit a man. But I didn't find $5.
In all honesty, after reflecting on this a bit, my parents were more concerned with class differences than with race. They'd not have liked me getting serious about someone in what they'd have thought of as the hoity-toity realm, nor with someone they'd have found a troglodyte. Nice and stably middle, thank you, can work with his hands, preferably can throw a baseball, but also doesn't mind reading and cooking, knows how to have a sensitive conversation.
All about class. My mom wasn't thrown by my dating a Muslim or Jewish guy (non-practicing); I didn't tell her about anyone who wasn't verging on serious.
I suppose it is but superfluous evidence of my profound racism lack of imagination thoughtless privilege whiteness that the love of my life is another Congregationalist.
35: Maybe you could date a Congee-regationalist.
36: Who follows the teachings of the great philosopher Bao-zi.
White guilt is better when it's shared.
"Congregationalist" doesn't mean much to me, so no, it's evidence of nothing in particular.
Of course, I don't see Jewish either.
A transplanted Yankee. I've made explanations and/or apologies about this before: I'm mostly a military brat, didn't firmly land in New England until I was 13, and there's a certain military-style race and creed blindness. At least that's the only way I can explain how I wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between a Congregationalist and a ... something else vaguely similar but different.
I have no idea what the difference between congregationalists and... other... flavors is, and my grandfather was a high episcopal reverend from colonial swamp yankee stock. So that just goes to show you: Flippanter is the very WASPiest of all.
I'm open-minded! I like all the different kinds of Slurpees!
Blood and souls for my lord Arioch!
Uh, I mean Jesus. Jesus!
I'm terribly curious whether my experience is common, i.e. potential racial concerns are couched as "we think the other side is more racist than us."
My parents did this in regards to my first serious boyfriend, who was half-black and named Je/sse [middle name] Jac/kson. I was so excited to be all open with them about this IBM-spawned nerdly guy I was dating, and they concern-trolled me about how black women might be resentful and how, obviously, his parents were probably politically black, etc. I was utterly shocked by their reaction, and it caused a pretty serious rift for a while.
My current roommate is Korean-American (first-generation), and she has pretty much accepted that her parents would prefer she marry a Korean man, would be okay with a white man (broadly defined) , but would flip out if she wanted to marry a black man (probably also broadly defined).
Like I said in the other thread, I know very many instances of Asian-Am dudes nixing an interracial relationship at parental insistence. I just realized I assume that is the default. I would have to get some sort of affirmative signal from an Asian-Am dude ("Oh, my parents are third gen." or "My sister married a white dude, so now anything can happen.") to believe dating an Asian-Am guy had longterm potential.
He said, "I'll just be happy if he marries a woman," at which we all merrily jumped down his throat for being homophobic.
Um...it's...sooort of a funny line, though!
And I'm not sure I'm supposed to encourage Stanley but congee-rationalist made me laugh.
Maybe a year after coming out I asked my folks not very seriously if they cared if I dated Jewish guys and they gave me some answer that was the verbal equivalent of rolling their eyes, as I dimly recall it.
53: If you remember exactly what they said, could you repeat it? I have conference calls and I'm not getting my points across.
52: I said we were merry about it, Mr. President.
I haven't clicked through to read the article, but I will note that I had a very strange moment a while back when I realized how utterly free from a certain type of worry and fear it feels to date another white person.
I don't think I would have grasped how privileged it can be had I not previously had the experience of being with someone where I genuinely worried about his safety and circumstances.
There's also the stupider privileges, such as that no one ever thinks the guy I'm with is the waiter. But it's the fretting that I notice the most.
I haven't really figured out what to do with this observation, except to add it to my list of "the world should be like this for everyone and WHY NOT already dammit what do we need to do to get that to change."
(I felt I must go presidential to say something so shocking and controversial! Anonymous president is anonymous.)
what do we need to do to get that to change
As Margaret Mead said, comment more on the internet. After all, what else is there?
That, and keep at it until everyone is a pleasant shade of beige.
Is it bad that I really want my son to have babies w a darker skinned woman so that my grand babies are that beautiful cinnamon color? Indian, black, hispanic...
61: Something similar tried in Lathe of Heaven if I recall correctly.
Ideally, you could have a really promiscuous, careless son and get all kinds of grand baby tones.
Plus, process servers have nice gum and always share if you sign nicely.
Siblings can end up with pretty broad skin-tone ranges even with both parents in common. (My b-i-l's comment on his lightest-skinned daughter: "Couldn't have been the mailman. He's Tongan.")
There's also the stupider privileges, such as that no one ever thinks the guy I'm with is the waiter.
Apropos, an African-American couple approached me in the Apple Store this afternoon with questions about their iPod earbuds. I directed them to a nearby (Indian, I think) guy wearing an Apple T-shirt and badge.
My sister and her husband ran into an odd situation where someone seemed to think they were unrelated to their baby, because the baby looked more Asian (to this person) than either of them, one of whom is part Asian. Neither of them is entirely white.
66: When I speculate about the parentage of strangers' children, I'm always very careful to remember things like that can happen and preface my remark with, "It might be yours,"
Speaking of kids, this morning the staff at the gym were trying to teach the fundamentals of tennis to a bunch of little kids barely tall enough to see over the nets. The process didn't seem to be going that well, but the kids were terrifically cute.
68: I'm a bit more cagey. I go with, "Hmmm, looks like someone definitely had some sex."
68, 70: All babies look like Wilt Chamberlain.
</dating myself>
dating myself
And do your parents approve?
Not sure, but my mom won't shake hands with me anymore.
Those jokes would be funnier - who am I kidding, they're not even funny - if people caught that the stranger was implying overseas adoption.
60.--Indian, black, hispanic...
I see you have "Iranian" covered under "Hispanic." My ex had that cinnamon/sienna skin (when tanned). I always worried that, in admiring that skin, I was orientalizing him---although, in retrospect, I seem to have fetishized in one dubious way or another most of my exes.
and there's a certain military-style race and creed blindness
My best "I only see people!" moment was when, after we'd all been paddling around in kayaks in an estuary near Monterey for a few hours, a member of my (mostly family) party remarked on how impressive the one-armed tour-guide's kayaking abilities were--I'd been completely oblivious, even though he helped me into my kayak.
75:. We're not trying to be funny.
(Also, who implies even that.)
I'm good w Iranian too! Native american. Anything to darken our pigment. Although I wouldn't object to fabulous curries or papusas.
77: I saw a similar thing today on the bus when nobody with a seat noticed the man with the cane who boarded.
Also a guy (homeless?) pushed me out from my position standing by the rear door so that he could sit on the floor and eat out of the driver's view.
Jm: you act like fetiishing the people we date is a bad thing.
80: if you ride a bike you don't have to see anybody.
I initially read 82 as being from Witt and it was much, much funnier.
Papooses are the cars at the end of the trains, on the Sí & No Railroad.
77: I don't even see people. Just a risk pool.
Have you sought professional help for your problem, Stanley?
Sure, he's engaged miniature scale trainers. They're HO B&O consultants
The author of that column is Diane Farr, who starred on Numb3rs, a show I liked not least b/c the brainy desi girl gets the adorably geeky Jewish boy. (Just like me in real life.) I've been pretty lucky in that race and parents have been relative non-issues this time around. I'm pretty sure my last relationship ended mainly b/c my Chinese-American boyfriend couldn't work up the guts to let his parents know about me. His parents have really done a number on his love life.
68, 75: My wife and I were thoroughly flummoxed when a stranger commented that she could see that our internationally adopted baby had his mother's eyes and his father's chin.
93: there is [ some study someplace I read about that provides ] evidence that babies features are basically indistinguishable, and that people assign the characteristics of the mother or the father based on some prior or primed association with the given parent.
94: Either that, or Winston Churchill gets around a *lot*.
93: there is [ some study someplace I read about that provides ] evidence that babies features are basically indistinguishable, and that people assign the characteristics of the mother or the father based on some prior or primed association with the given parent.
Ideally, you could have a really promiscuous, careless son and get all kinds of grand baby tones.
A really promiscuous, careless daughter would work equally well, though it might take longer.
My parents (both short people from short families) were completely thrown when I turned up with somebody significantly taller. My mother later admitted that they'd envisaged any possible combination of race and gender, but not that.
95. Him and Eisenhower seem to have a lock on this breeding thing.
Pupusas. Oops.
Yum.
My son has really started dating but I've tried to train him to mock people who prefer to eat at chain restaurants. And that I would be really happy if his future in-laws/significant other could make fabulous samosas. (or more likely, his partner's parents since my living in sin has prob taught him not to get married.)
This thread makes me wonder how Belle Lettre is doing.
Another perspective on mixed-race marriages.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-467787/I-love-mixed-race-baby--does-feel-alien.html
10: Good for your grandmother, ajay.
103: I may have been a bit oblique about that: my father's fiancee's father disapproved of my father's atheism, as a result the disapprover did not become my maternal grandfather (because his daughter didn't end up marrying my dad). Neither of my grandmothers had much to do with it. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
105: Thanks for making that explicit.
101: Holy crap, that article is what would happen if you gave my racist parents a column and just said, "We think people will like it best if you just express every part of the most horrible things you think! Just go for it!"
107: yes, the Daily Mail is basically the hideous underbelly of our otherwise green and pickled land.
Yeah, as a general rule of thumb, and if you apply it you won't go far wrong, anyone who i) buys the Daily Mail, or ii) writes in it, is vile scum.
If, for some reason, you absolutely have to look at something published by the Mail, use this proxy so that your visit does not redound to their advertising revenue.
You may have seen the Daily Mail headline generator, but have you tried the Greasemonkey userscript that removes the headlines from the Daily Mail website and substitutes ones from the random generator?
Alternatively, you could install Kittenblock, a Firefox extension that removes all links to the Mail and replaces them with a kitten.
Or if you really want to sample the fucking thing's depravity, search for stories with the byline "DAILY MAIL REPORTER". Because the Mail actually has a byline for stories so foul and mendacious that the original reporter disavowed the edited version and refused to allow their name to appear on it, like the movies' "Alan Smithee" director credit.
It's a bit like that Red Dwarf episode where they invented the triplicator that produced one identical copy of the original, one idealised copy, and one hideously degraded copy. The Daily Mail is pretty much the Rimmer-in-suspenders of the British media.
I don't know what the enlightened-ballet-monk of the British media is.
I never got any comments from my parents that they would prefer I have a white partner. I was very, very proud of my mother, though, when she told me that on her Guatemala trip she'd asked the vendors selling dolls if they had any dark-skinned versions so she could buy something for Mara. I don't know if she truly thinks it's good for Mara to have toys that look like she does or if she just knows it's something that matters to me, but at least she made an effort. She and my dad adore Mara, and that love is definitely mutual.
I don't know what the enlightened-ballet-monk of the British media is.
Probably Blood and Treasure.
||
Parenting bleg:
Hokey Pokey wakes up this morning with somewhat crusty eyes. I vaguely try to clean it up but he squirms away. Off he goes to day care, crust hanging on.
Immediately they call and say he has pink-eye, and needs to be picked up. I go do so, and take him to a walk-in clinic.
While in the waiting room, I clean off the crust. The doctor is skeptical that he has pink-eye because there is no redness, no oozing, no discharge, no nothing. She writes us a prescription anyway.
We get home and Pokey takes a 3 hour nap. Afterwards there is no eye crust, no oozing, no discharge, no redness. Healthy baby eyes.
If he were a stay-at-home baby, there is no way I'd put him on the antibiotics. One week of drops every 3 hours?? Hell no. (If he started to develop symptoms over the next day or so, then sure. But otherwise no.)
But he goes to daycare with other babies belonging to other parents. Do I have an obligation to give 7 days of drops every 3 hours to a completely symptom-free baby, who almost definitely never had pink-eye in the first place?
Or can I tell a convenient white lie?
|>
The doctor is skeptical that he has pink-eye because there is no redness, no oozing, no discharge, no nothing. She writes us a prescription anyway.
Call your doctor and berate her for contributing to endemic antibiotic overprescription. Send her a few articles on MRSA infections.
I just used "endemic" incorrectly, didn't I?
Technically, I think it might be better to say, "the antibiotic overprescription endemic to ...." But, I think you're close enough.
Apropos of an earlier thread, and this one, my clerk at Little Caesar's today was a young gentleman of Southeast Asian extraction named "Sue."
112: My dad's race politics can be iffy -- he recently started in on some complaint blaming Muslims for obnoxious airport security before I told him to put a sock in it -- but he adores my Ethiopian-born niece and considers her no less his grandchild than the 3 related to him by blood. You'd have to be pretty damn hardhearted to resist the likes of Mara and Kraabniece #3.
Also, I don't see why HP should be treated against a doctor's advice because of a care giver's diagnosis or why it should require a white lie to the care giver. Just say the doctor said you were wrong and we're keeping an eye on the situation.
114: Tell the daycare that the doctor failed to diagnose pink eye and don't mention the antibiotics. Also, what urple said in 115.
121 isn't pwning, because I wasn't clear on what 120 was saying. But together 120/121 are exactly what I was hoping for.
Kittenblock, a Firefox extension that removes all links to the Mail and replaces them with a kitten
Awesome.
124: I'm having composition difficulties today, but I was indeed trying to say what 121 said except that I wouldn't fault the doctor for giving you a script as you never know what HP's eyes will look like tomorrow morning.
Hmmmm. I got pinkeye recently and was given antibiotics, a one week treatment. I did it for about two days, the problem seemed to go away, so I put the contact lenses back in and BAM more pinkeye. So now I'm on more antibiotics. That shit is hard to kill.
127: No, you were naughty and didn't take the full course.
127: Why don't you just run a boot camp to toughen up the germs that will kill the rest of us? If you start antibiotics, take them all.
Similar parenting bleg, only for dogs: we recieved a very friendly-toned note from a neighbor (unsigned, so I don't know who) on our front door yesterday, asking us to not leave our dogs outside unattended anymore because they bark all the time. The tone of the note was so friendly and polite that my immediate instinct was to comply. But, thinking about it, (1) I've seen our dogs outside plenty, and they generally don't actually bark much at all, except at other dogs (they actually did happen to bark quite a bit when they were outside yesterday, because another dog was outside barking back at them the whole time), (2) they're both very small, and quieter barkers than basically any of the other dogs around who bark at them, (3) they're only ever out for about two hours a day, and that only in nice weather, and only in the middle of the day. It's not like they're keeping anyone from sleeping at night. So, even though other people's barking dogs can be annoying, I'm sort of unsympathetic. But I'll feel like an asshole if I just blatantly disregard the note. I wish they'd signed it, so that I could go discuss it with them, acknowledge that yes they barked quite a bit yesterday, sorry about that if you were trying to nap or something, generally they don't unless other dogs are barking at them, and we'll try to get them to stop (as we usually do) but I don't really think it's reasonable just to never let them outside. But since they didn't sign it, I don't know how to say that to anyone.
But maybe I'm being an asshole here.
Ok, good.
I just needed permission to lie about the prescription, since daycare can't be told about its existence, since their stance (understandably) has to be to take the most extreme precautions available.
Bad Halford. Stopping antibiotics before you finish the full course creates superviruses. Yours probably leapt through the intertubes to infect HP2.
On preview, pwned, but I'm piling on anyway.
And, um, of course I meant bacteria, not viruses.
Cavemen would only take as many antibiotics as they could run down and kill with spears. Are you trying to ruin Halford's health?
131: Can you go around to your 5 or 6 closest neighbors and ask if they left you a note?
Maybe I have some superbacteria I can now shoot out on people with the POWER OF MY EYES. I get more awesome every day.
136: Carry a radio playing This American Life and say, "It's the dogs or this...through an open window!"
132: I don't think their stance has to be to take the most extreme precautions - it's pinkeye, not bubonic plague.
Also, my ex used to call those things "eye boogers," which I have adopted as my default term along with "ear boogers" for earwax.
131
... generally they don't unless other dogs are barking at them, ...
This seems like an evasion of responsibility. It's all the fault of the other dog owners. And the other dog owners can blame you.
119: If my dad had any reservations, he never expressed them. My mother thought specifically that I'm not mature or competent enough to parent, but also generally that kids need to live with a mom and a dad. I was willing to cut her off completely if I thought there was any jerkiness toward Mara because of this, but she's been great and has been sort of compensating for some of the jerky things she did to me as a kid.
I'm not mature or competent enough to parent
Good lord. Has she met you?
I'm glad to hear she's being a good grandparent.
My neighbors have huge dogs that think they're fire engines. Or at least, every time a siren is audible, they howl sympathetically. It's so terribly adorable that I'm never annoyed, regardless of the hour.
What I'm saying, urple, is: teach your dogs that they're fire engines. It's good times.
141: My life has improved considerably [since I learned/when I remember] that comments like that tend to be projection pure and simple.
131: Anonymous notes deserve no response. If the note had been signed, or the person approached you nicely in person, then maybe you'd think twice. But a note from someone who can't sign their name saying something that doesn't ring true? Meh. On a related note, while I was puttering in the yard, a neighbor I'd never met before approached to let me know that a kid down the block mows lawns if I wanted some help. See? Now that's a neighborly approach that could actually have an impact!
Oh, and often when i go to sleep a neighbor's little yippy dog is outside yipping and it annoyes the hell out of me. I slept with the window open a couple nights ago and could have sworn I heard a squealing pig. I'm assuming it was the yippy dog, but there's always a chance we have a loud pig somewhere nearby.
People are insane about pinkeye. I have pretty bad seasonal allergies. In the spring, my eyes turn red and swell up fairly often, especially when I was a kid in the Ohio valley. In elementary school, my teachers would tell my parents I had pinkeye roughly once a week. They never seemed to get it through their heads that "having pink eyes" != "having pinkeye."
Also, my ex used to call those things "eye boogers," which I have adopted as my default term along with "ear boogers" for earwax.
Japanese is nicely consistent about those things; they're all "shit". Eye-shit, ear-shit, nose-shit, tooth-shit (plaque). The saying "The eye-shit laughing at the nose-shit" corresponds to "the pot calling the kettle black".
145: I heard a noise that sounded like a tortured person wailing outside my window. I suppose it was a cat or something being murdered by a cat because I turned on the light and saw nothing.
145, 148: I've heard noises like that and always assumed they were rabbits getting caught by a predator, since rabbits are supposed to make pretty horrible noises when they're caught.
could have sworn I heard a squealing pig
I heard a noise that sounded like a tortured person wailing outside my window
always assumed they were rabbits getting caught by a predator
You people have foxes.
The oddest night-time animal noise I've heard [foxes are ubiquitous so don't count] was hedgehogs fucking. Which is a creepy grunting noise, but quite funny once you know what it is.
Could be, but I have not seen one. It would explain why there are no more squirrels. I do know raccoons have been living back there.
Sonic chases Tails? I thought it was the other way around.
OT: I'm only ten seconds from achieving my goal time for running 3.5 miles, if I'm actually running 3.5 miles. I think I'm probably running closer to 3.4 miles because that's what google says.
151: Awesome. I just google fox noises and that is it exactly. And makes much more sense around here than feral pigs. Assuming the hawks return this summer, the small mammals in the neighborhood won't stand a fighting chance.
Moby -- I don't know what sort of phone you're using, but if you're on Android, you can download an app called Cardiotrainer that will give you you're mileage, time, etc.
158: I didn't think of trying that. I did the same and that's the noise I heard.
159: I don't want to carry my phone.
I'm not sure I want to hear what Moby's goal for 3.5 miles is, if only because I stopped like a mile into my run this morning feeling all creaky and nauseated. I walked for a block, felt better, and then finished up the run, but I'm gonna be seriously miffed (and confused!) if I'm preggo or something.
I suppose I could carry my phone once, but it is pretty heavy and I don't want to get it all sweaty.
161: 3.5 miles in 35 minutes. Math is hard.
I'm old and live in a hilly area. It's not that slow.
10 minute miles are good, dammit.
sounds like screaming human baby vomiting as it is being strangled = vixen requesting sex
a friend who grew up in rural oxfordshire tells me that muntjacs actually sound worse
165: I suspect I'm doing 10.5 minute miles and ten years ago I could do a 5k over similar terrain in 27 minutes or so.
I am helped, I think, by the fact that I never tried to run anywhere until I hit my middle thirties. Youthful points of comparison are so unhelpful.
The cops don't respect teens who never run at all.
170: Why would he run? He had a jetpack.
I stopped like a mile into my run this morning feeling all creaky and nauseated
That happened to me over the weekend. I think it was the heat.
170: another point in favor of bikes: much, much better for fleeing from the cops, at least in boston.
Yeah, foxes for sure. I am very fond of them, and once you get to know their range of freaky sounds, you just kind of smile and go, "Yeah, you guys, I know you're out there."
In my experience, in a neighborhood with deer, foxes, hawks and sometimes eagles, owls, cats, bunnies, hedgehogs, squirrels, raccoons, moles and mice ... the foxes are probably not going to wipe out the rodents or small mammals. They all have a kill level agreement; at least that's how it seems to work around here. I'm not sure who the natural predators of foxes are, but they seem to be chiefly nocturnal, and the bunnies have gone to bed by then.
Bunnies being caught and killed is a dreadful sound.
Is there some reason for using transracial instead of interracial in the OP?
another point in favor of bikes: much, much better for fleeing from the cops, at least in boston.
I chased a guy on a bike with my car. Fun as hell. He wisely (and to my disappointment) gave up after I drove up on the sidewalk in front of him.
174: I guess I wasn't expecting a fox because I live in an area that has be built up for many years and is fairly dense by U.S. standards. There are some spots with cover that were too steep to build on, but these are very small and isolated. You need to get a mile or so from my house before you hit anything where you are more than 30 yards from someone's kitchen.
176: yeah, I don't think it would be a good idea in SLC. Boston's street grid is a whole different story, though.
I mean, not that it's a good idea in Boston. It's a more practical bad idea.
Is there some reason for using transracial instead of interracial in the OP?
Nope. Didn't even realize I was being weird until you pointed it out. Maybe they used "transracial" in the link and it put the idea in my head.
Jammies is off at the second night of a two-evening concert, and tonight's bedtime routine was a royal pain in the ass. Right now I'm ignoring crying. Also I'm a terrible parent and Hokey Pokey rolled off the bed while I was tending to Hawaiian Punch. He landed face first in her crib. And when I realized he'd gone over the edge, I said "OH SHIT!" and scared the piss out of Hawaiian Punch. Good times.
Or perhaps some sort of belay/harness arrangement?
I kind of think she was only screaming because he touched her crib. OTOH it's hard to keep track of the things that toddlers scream about.
OTOH it's hard to keep track of the things that toddlers scream about.
Far easier to track what they don't scream about.
175, 179: I think I'm probably to blame for it, having written "transracial" here elsewhere yesterday. I do use it to talk about parent-child relationships but use "interracial" for romance and whatnot.
184: The Prague Spring, cubism, Venn diagrams, the 1972 Miami Dolphins, LASIK surgery, quantitative easing, white balsamic vinegar, and, uhh, I think that's it.
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My yard is full of fireflies.
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That sounds lovely.
Both my children are asleep.
I think I'd cry about white balsamic vinegar because it sounds like some kind of abomination.
White balsamic vinegar is fantastic.
Ny child has been asleep for a good two hours already. Also, she has a new boyfriend.
White balsamic makes the best pickles evar.
Maybe I'll try white balsamic vinegar, but I've only ever seen the brown kind.
It's a more practical bad idea.
A real biker could be a challenge in the right part of town. This was a meth head with a couple forgery warrants.
This was a meth head with a couple forgery warrants.
The most dangerous game.
Have not seen fireflies in Northern Virginia yet this year.
I have been running home from the train station last week or so. Tiring. Backpack, cellphones, slacks and dress shoes are heavier than I want them to be.
198.1: Really? We've got tons. I'll go yell at some to fly up Route 29N.
198: Are you one of those guys running with a backpack on? I am always puzzled by that.
No fireflies here yet either: we're still in the waning of an ambient scent of honeysuckle. Barely. Temperatures and humidity are crazily up and down, which is better than the solid up which signals the advent of fireflies.
This evening as I watered the garden I managed to flip the hose around in such a way as to hose/spray myself in the head and face, which was dismaying for 2 seconds before it was amusing and enjoyable.
It's due to be in the mid- to upper-90s here for the next few days, 100+ with heat index, so I imagine I'll be mismanaging the garden hose again a few more times.
Well none in our condo canyon, so far as I have seen.
200: Me also. There is a women I often saw every morning and evening when I went to my car. She was jogging along with a backpack that said "Camelback" but didn't look like it had water as there was no straw.
I imagine I'll be mismanaging the garden hose again a few more times.
Been there. Done that.
Could you guys who have squirrel killing predators please export some to Brooklyn?
tkm objectively pro-automobile.
200: Running home from the train station after work.
207: Right, but where are your regular clothes/shoes while you run?
208: tie lives in my cabinet at work, shirts accumulate there for the laundry in the building. Slacks wrapped carefully around a legal pad in the bag to avoid wrinkles. Shoes and socks in the other compartment of the bag. Suitcoats stay hanging in my cabinet at work.
Recent WaPo article on fireflies and the timing of their emergence in the DC area. Follow the link to the Boston Museum of Science for some more in depth info on different species etc. They've not emerged here yet (that I've seen).
I take it back. We do have fireflies. Sparse, and scant, but there they are. It is too soon for this.
A lawyer bag or a backpack?
We have feelings, you know.
Given the other thread going, I was afraid "briefcase" might lead to bad puns and you know that I'm opposed to that.
217: I felt my "HO B&O consultants" back in comment 90 didn't get enough love/hate the other night. In addition to specifically merging Stanley's 86 and your 89, it was bad train puns all the way down.
Thanks, I was inordinately pleased with how it all came together my work here is done.
We do have fireflies.
Why do we still live here, in this repulsive town?
That's going to be cryptic, isn't it? Here.
I guess I wasn't expecting a fox because I live in an area that has be built up for many years and is fairly dense by U.S. standards.
Are American foxes not completely urbanised yet? They're fully at home on the streets around us, and although I imagine they sleep in the patches of trees here and there on hillsides and river banks, they range far and wide. Keep the rats and squirrels down, though the squirrels mostly just run up a tree.
Are you one of those guys running with a backpack on? I am always puzzled by that.
I always assume they have their work clothes in the backpack, and they run to work, take a shower and change. OK not all offices have shower facilities, but it's not totally rare.
Urban foxes are pretty rare in the US. I don't think I've seen one, though I have seem plenty of urban deer, for example.
The niche is probably occupied by raccoons or something.
We used to get muntjac in our garden fairly often in Oxford, but I don't ever remember hearing them. Hedgehogs, very occasionally, owls quite often, foxes all the time, but not muntjac.
Here in west London I see foxes every day, and the other odd one [although completely familiar to Londoners, I expect] is all the parrots.
The uptown fox: keeping the rats down, the squirrels up and the cats puffy.
Mrs y went out to get something from the car the other evening and there was one sauntering down the middle of the road, making no attempt to keep under cover at all. Paid no attention to her whatever, though I imagine in the people next door but one had decided to take their spaniel for a run at that moment it might have got a bit noisy.
Just as ducks quack in different accents in different regions, there seems to be a lot of cultural variation in fox behaviour across London. In my anecdatal experience, foxes south of the river are much bolder and cheekier in daylight.
I see them in daylight sometimes, and early evening often, although they usually slink off once you get within 6ft or so. After a previous London meetup, when Po-Mo and I were standing in Russell Square one walked right up to us had a good look and then wandered off.
Urban foxes are pretty rare in the US.
I saw a fox run across Highway 54 near my office (on the Durham-Chapel Hill border) last year, but that was the first one I'd ever seen. Our office park is right next to a swampy waterfowl impoundment, fwiw. A fox also shows up in my in-laws' yard in Raleigh occasionally.
In Hanwell there's a sort of petting zoo, for kids, in the park; and my wife and I watched a large but fairly mangy looking fox sneaking back and forth trying to get in to get at the rabbits and birds. Broad daylight, loads of people around. It was trying to stay out of sight, but they are obviously bold enough that the possibility of being caught isn't enough to stop them. The Wieners of the animal world.
233: I used to drive by the waterfowl impoundment and make jokes about how this is where you go if your duck was illegally parked and got towed.
My block has a family of urban skunks, which I don't think I've heard of elsewhere. I don't know if ours are an anomaly, or if they're urbanized all over. (They actually live under our building, in a space that in the past has attracted a fair amount of graffiti, but no longer does. The co-op board president has informed the super that the skunks are not to be trapped or otherwise molested, because they're better neighbors than our other option.)
Between the smell and the risk of rabies, I'm guessing most places would try to get rid of the skunks.
I suppose an actual urban skunk probably would not have the rabies risk you see in the suburbs or rural areas.
They don't look rabid, and I haven't heard about many people getting sprayed (which I'm actually surprised by, given the dog population around here.) Skunks are one self-confident animal, though. The mother skunk will walk down the sidewalk with little skunklets and appear absolutely certain that everyone is going to get out of her way on her route from her lair to the park. She knows no one wants to get sprayed.
Modern Love/Transracial Dating Skunk-related Edition: have you tried the experiment of painting a white stripe down the back of a black female cat?
A friend of mine has a pet skunk [she also has pet m33rkats]. Apparently they are quite reluctant to actually spray unless really threatened. One of her m33rkats bit the skunk, quite hard, and it still didn't cut loose.
I used to drive by the waterfowl impoundment and make jokes about how this is where you go if your duck was illegally parked and got towed.
Yeah, skunks aren't afraid of much of anything.
Commitment.
241: Don't people usually get the stink glands removed from pet skunks?
Quelle est? Ah, le belle femme skunk fatale. I am ze locksmith of love, no?
re: 245
They used to, but in the UK it's discouraged [and may even no longer be legal, afaict]. My friend's skunk still has all his glands intact.
I'm just catching up with this thread, but I wanted to say that stories like 12 give me a much more nuanced, sympathetic portrayal of Bear's parents. The other stories that really hit me that way was the fact that they gave Bear a list of high-art films she should watch in college and hearing recently that her mom cooed over Barry Lyndon.
I guess at some point I pigeon holed them has reactionary fundamentalists, which now seems unfair.
My friend's skunk still has all his glands intact.
You learned this from the pics in the skunk's twitter feed?
re: 249
Heh, she has a website for the m33rkats, which the skunk occasionally appears on. The m33rkats have facebook accounts, too, but I don't think the skunk does.
Shimplesh!
In general, I think Brits are more squeamish about physically modifying their pets. Declawed cats are extremely rare, for instance.
I know a guy who paints his horse green every St. Patrick's Day. His father before him did the same, though I assume to a different horse.
I guess (hope?) that is not actually a physical modification, thought I've never seen that particular horse on March 18.
252: In contrast, the French are known to be particularly fond of cats bred by Monet—or as they're known: chats de Claude.
Hey, now in three languages. Hooray.
I'm not sure, but I don't think Americans declaw cats any more either -- I think there was a change of feeling about it sometime since the eighties. I'd expect a vet asked to declaw a cat to refuse.
But, they'll still cut the balls right off. Bastards.
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I love the arrival of warm weather. So many people overdo the embrace of the sundress paradigm, which I find terribly fetching.
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259. Huge bright red people bustin' out all over?
260: Those aren't so bad; it's the short white ones you have to be careful not to trip over.
My block has a family of urban skunks, which I don't think I've heard of elsewhere.
Not as urban as where you are, but Somerville is known to have lots of skunks, and I've seen them on occasion in Cambridge as well. There used to be an albino skunk that lived near my place in Somerville. I'd be coming home late at night and run into it and its glowing red eyes.
I've only ever seen them at night, though, and near garbage bins. In contrast, I was walking down my block last fall in broad daylight and there was a rat ahead of me, just ambling along. I tried walking louder, shuffling my feet and then stomping a bit, and the rat remained completely unruffled. I didn't mind because I actually quite like rats when they're acting as though they belong somewhere; it's only when you startle them and they scurry away that I find myself revulsed by them.
Declawing is still done, at least in the Midwest, although I don't how common it is. By contrast, my aunt and uncle in Denmark have their female cat on birth control.
Skunks get killed all the goddamn time on the country road I take to work. It's like skunk migration season from one side of the road to the other, and they just get picked off one by one.
263: It's a bad sign if a rat doesn't run from people. You should have thrown rocks at it until it ran.
then stomping a bit, and the rat remained completely unruffled
Ur doing it wrong.
Assuming you weren't able to take shot for one reason or another.
I'd expect a vet asked to declaw a cat to refuse.
Our vet asked whether we wanted to declaw our cats when we first got them as kittens and had them spayed, so it's still standard enough around here. We turned it down, but now I wish I had gotten it done.
There aren't any rocks just lying around on my street.
Assuming you weren't able to take shot for one reason or another.
She was walking down the street, not sitting in a bar.
In Britain you're legally obliged to report it to the council if you see a rat. I've done this exactly once, and nobody got back to me until I'd forgotten about it. Then my phone went off just after I got off a plane, and some public servant asked me if I could meet him at the place I'd seen it. "Er, I'm standing in the middle of Lisbon airport, so that would be no." Never heard any more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onychectomy#United_States
272:
In April 2007, the city of Norfolk, Virginia outlawed declawing by persons other than veterinarians
I shudder to think of how this update to the municipal code became necessary.
271.1: I mean 'take a shot'. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes Americans are unarmed.
I had the crazy cat declawed, because otherwise I felt I'd have to put him down.
It doesn't happen often, but sometimes Americans are unarmed.
MA has crappy gun laws. Maybe she could carry something more rat specific like golf shoes.
I kind of wish I'd had the cat declawed. Apparently there's something called laser declawing (pew! pew!) that's less unpleasant for the cat. Anyway if I'd figured out ten years ago that seven years hence I'd start acquiring mid-century furniture that I didn't want shredded, I might have done it.
It's one of those things like the debate about the removal of another thing where some people tell you it ruins the subject's life, only one knows "victims" of the procedure and they seem happy enough.
Most often, the victim of a male circumcision has no sex for a decade and a half or more after the procedure.
Not as urban as where you are, but Somerville is known to have lots of skunks
To be fair, Somerville is among the densest municipalities in the country.
the victim of a male circumcision has no sex for a decade and a half
Also, sometimes they get to sixty or seventy and just drop dead for no apparent reason.
To be unfair, the residents of Somerville are all responsible for the Lost in Space moive.
Sorry, I know the circumcision conversation is the deadest horse that ever got beat but I was reading issue 2 of Foreskin Man and then that prompted me to read an interview with the guy who wrote it where he called it "one of the most important human rights issues of our time" or words to that effect and it got me amused/annoyed by the whole thing all over again.
That movie had kind of neat ending credits.
285: I thought that guy was pretty much a straight-up antisemite. Anyway, the picture I saw of that comic showed a blond, Nordic guy about to throw a pool ball at a mohel doing a bris.
287. That sounds likely. Or he could be Islamphobic, or a misogynist who wants his girlfriends to run a higher risk of cervical cancer. I can't come up with anything good.
I was with you until the end there, chris y, but is your implication that anybody who doesn't favor circumcision (not who is trying to ban it, but who wouldn't personally choose it) is one of those three? Because fuck off, if so, but I'm sure that's not what you mean.
Here in west London I see foxes every day, and the other odd one [although completely familiar to Londoners, I expect] is all the parrots.
Parrots parrots, or cockatoos? I know parakeets are common in London, but the ones I've seen while round my mates' houses in Ealing have generally been cockatoos. To the best of my ornithological knowledge, which isn't much.
The house down the street routinely hangs their bird cage of little birds out on their porch. It cracks me up. It seems like such cruel torture. "See, little birdies? Other birdies are free! They're right there, except free! Enjoy your cage."
I have little cardinals outside my back window and I don't even have to feed them.
re: 290
I think the commonest in west London is the rose-ringed parakeet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose-ringed_Parakeet#Feral_birds
They fly around our flat a fair bit. Sometimes they land and clutch on the wall [we are several stories up] and pick at something. I'm assuming it's insects or pollen or something.
The parakeets are green, aren't they? And mainly in South London?
The niche is probably occupied by raccoons or something.
Wikipedia: "Red foxes are the most important rabies vector in Europe." I think you're right!
Bats are apparently the most important rabies vector in the UK, where it more or less never occurs ever.
I looked it up and in the U.S. it is both raccons and skunks. I had thought it was just skunks. Transmission to people is through dogs that get the foamer from a rabid skunk or raccoon.
re: 295
Yeah, although we get them up into Ealing. Richmond Park is full of the buggers, and I've seen them out at Hampton Court.
Re: exercise around comment 157-169, I should look into those apps that track distance or whatever. I've been biking a fair amount lately. Google maps can tell me how far I'm going, but it might be nice to have something else that could give me details on speed, calories burned, etc. (And yes, I'd definitely say that running 10-minute miles are good. They sure were by my standards.)
Re: exercise with backpacks, I think the routine I've worked out to bike home form work is kind of complicated but a couple guys in this office who bike to work both ways have very simple routines: leave office clothes in their cubicles. There's a dry cleaner in the building, so I don't know how often they take those clothes home. Maybe never.
Re: declawing, I have the sense that vets will do it, but it's highly ill-advised for cats that are even remotely outdoor animals, that's all. In addition to fights, cats also needs claws to climb things.
300.1: there's a site that I use called mapmyride that will take your google data (and time taken) and estimate things like speed, calories burned, and so on. I think there are other sites that do the same sort of thing. They also work with (and/or offer) various apps that integrate.
I think I started walking home from work more often when a map program told me the walk was exactly 2.0 miles. What does this say about my persnoality?
Don't understand exactly why, but red foxes do not seem to have made the urban inroads in the US that they have in England (and I think elsewhere in Europe). That said, I have seen them with increasing frequency in urban/close-in suburban areas over the last 5 years or so (before that I had only seen them in rural settings). It may be competition from raccoons (which do seem do have decreased in number in the immediate vicinity of my house). Red foxes were relatively late in coming to North America, getting here during the Ice Ages.
This article claims 10,000 foxes in London back in 2006. When foxes v. cats came up here a few months ago, my searches indicated that England was the center of energy for observations and debates on that front (summary: neither necessarily dominates the other, cats can usually effectively defend their core territory against foxes when it comes to it).
This morning by my bus stop there were 2 dead robins lying side by side. I couldn't figure out how this came to be.
I have a cheap Garmin heart-rate monitor with a footpod, for which you can also buy a cadence thingie for bikes. It'll do all that -- distance, time, rate etc.
Most often, the victim of a male circumcision has no sex for a decade and a half or more after the procedure.
I love this comment.
Also, foxes at night sound like people getting killed. Horrible sound.
Another robin is a serial killer.
Back to back, they faced each other.
Drew out their swords and shot each other.
The deaf policemen heard all the noise,
Came and killed the two dead robins.
And if you think my story's not true,
Ask the blind man, he saw it too.
It may be competition from raccoons (which do seem do have decreased in number in the immediate vicinity of my house)
I haven't seen sign of a raccoon near me in the past couple of years either. I never thought much about it, but maybe the big snows of 2010 got them.
I can't operate on this robin! It's my child! How could this be?
308: My third grade teacher taught me that poem and I still remember it.
A man goes to his bus stop in the morning, sees two dead robins lying side-by-side, tastes the one on the right and kills the bus driver.
They were standing on an ice cube, which melted, leaving no trace of the ice cube.
OT: Should I try Korean food for lunch? I've been hearing good things.
I think foxes in much of the U.S. are competing in the same niche as coyotes for the mid-size urban predator role, and the coyotes are winning.
It was probably supposed to be rotten cabbage, anyway.
Is Bulgogi what you get if you haven't tried Korean food before?
In general, try new things.
I could go to McD's and get a Big Mac and it would be new to me.
Mandoo is great. Bibimbap is typical too.
320: Really?
Or are you considering each particular Big Mac a unique individual?
I'm not crazy adventurous, and I find Korean food very non-threatening: ordering at random shouldn't get you anything too worrisome. Very very spicy/hot is a possibility, but nothing else really odd to an American palate.
I don't eat it enough to have a good memory for what to order, though: I'm still in the "Haven't had a bad experience yet, let's see what this is," mode.
289. Except he is trying to ban it. We read the "About" page so you don't have to, (which I strongly advise given that their server is apparently on a dial up modem.)
We call on members of Congress to pass the MGM (Male Genital Mutilation) Bill into law without delay so that boys may enjoy the same protection from circumcision as girls.
324: I realize what he's trying to do, yes. Glad I misunderstood the larger implications of your comment.
322: I may have had one at some point, but I can't recall it. I don't like thousand island dressing.
I suspect that foxes have always been rarer in the US than in the UK, so it's not so surprising that urban foxes are also rarer. Urban coyotes are becoming more common. But raccoons do seem to have the "eating trash" niche pretty covered.
Mutual invasibility implies coexistence!
Usually applied to skunk & cats, but I'm sure Unfogged can wrap it around genitalia.
Germany may give some good test cases for whether raccoons are the things keeping down the numbers of urban foxes in the US.
I think the commonest in west London is the rose-ringed parakeet
Although if you are wandering round the parks late at night, it's not uncommon to encounter the odd cockatoo.
I suspect that foxes have always been rarer in the US than in the UK
It would be surprising if they weren't. There are no coyotes in Britain and no wolves since the 17th century. Apart from domestic dogs, foxes are the only large cursorial predator out there in Britain. In N.America they've got a bunch of competition.
Korean food was good, especially the meat. But, it cost the same as three sausage and hot pepper subs, so maybe not an every day kind of deal.
Wikipedia says: "In sympatric populations of coyotes and red foxes, fox territories tend to be located largely outside of coyote territories. The principal cause of this separation is believed to be active avoidance of coyotes by the foxes."
Coyotes show up in Manhattan now and then. But the NYPD seems to take them pretty seriously so they don't stick around long. An interesting question is how they get there. Presumably it's from the bronx but the question is whether they're swimming the harlem river or walking over a bridge.
An interesting question is how they get there.
They can cling to the underside of cabs.
I'm fairly certain that a coyote could swim across to Manhattan at many wider points than the Harlem River. Even the East River isn't very wide.
Also, it would be very easy for them to swim from New Jersey to Staten Island and get on the ferry without notice.
Presumably it's from the bronx but the question is whether they're swimming the harlem river or walking over a bridge.
Probably easiest to take the subway.
My son told me he saw a moose in our backyard. I have many reasons for doubting that.
An interesting question is how they get there.
343,344: Something was certain to go wrong with that joke.
The only time I've ever encountered a rat in London, a friend of mine chased it down the street, caught up with it and kicked it to death over a moderately short period of time . It was huge, about the size of a cat.
We did not inform the local authorities.
285, like Corn Flakes, was originally popularised by very strange Americans in the late 19th century in an effort to stop young American blokes from fiddling about, and has stuck around through a combination of inert tradition-worship by American doctors and after-the-fact health justifications.
333:
Here's to dear old Boston,
The home of the bean and the cod,
Where coyotes speak only to foxes,
And foxes speak only to God.
It was huge, about the size of a cat.
Was it in the Quartermaster's store?
347.2 It would have been very strange Americans indeed who breakfasted on children's foreskins with milk and sugar. How is chopping the flap off (or not, I'm not clear here) meant stop you fiddling about twelve years later?
I regularly meet foxes around London N19, looking as if they're doing well off living around here. The neighbours' cat will attack them if she's around.
re: rats
Once, travelling from Victoria really early one morning, I passed Blunkett [presumably walking to Westminster] with his dog, and just behind him the street was full of rats.*
* 'full' == half a dozen, maybe. Broad daylight, although it was 6am, or thereabouts.
351. It was a welcome party for Blunkett.
It was sort of incongruous.
'FFS! It's Blunkett.'*
[walk 10 ft]
'WTF at all these rats'
* on his own, too. No security that I could see.
It sounds like a scene from Herzog's remake of Nosferatu. [insert satirical observation here]
