Re: Consensus building

1

(Also fist-to-five sounds a teeny bit dirty, no?)

Yes.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-30-11 3:23 PM
horizontal rule
2

What is google buzz? And where do I find Becks's?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 06-30-11 5:45 PM
horizontal rule
3

When serious felonies involving the public trust* are at issue, avoiding the risk of a little shouting doesn't seem something to build a process on.

* Studiedly avoiding recalling the other recent jury decision of moment.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06-30-11 6:07 PM
horizontal rule
4

2: Google Buzz is annoying and incredibly privacy intrusive, is what it is. here, let me wiki that for you.

But people, high paid lawyers even, were actually so stupid to believe that dur, if we stack the jury with ladies, they won't convinct, you need a penis for that? And, as the article alleges, this is just because in the first trial a female jury member refused to convict?

So glad that when I do something dumb, this isn't hold against my entire gender...


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 06-30-11 10:58 PM
horizontal rule
5

Oh, come on. Everything lawyers do during this juror-selection procedure is based on demographic tendencies that are well-known to lawyers.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07- 1-11 5:36 AM
horizontal rule
6

4.2: Do you have a better plan?

In this case, my guess is that the jury consultants told them that everybody hated their client. So, the attorneys went for the Hail Mary, since that happened to work the last time.

Admittedly I didn't read the linked article. I don't have the time! I have work to do!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 07- 1-11 6:19 AM
horizontal rule
7

My understanding as a defense lawyer who has done a grand total of one jury trial is that the conventional wisdom is that you general don't want women on your jury because women are more likely to be fearful of violence and side with the government and thus convict your client, unless it's a sex case, in which case you definitely do want women on your jury because women, in their internalized sexism, are likely to judge the complaining witness very harshly (and we all know that in sex cases it's really the complaining witness who's on trial) and think she's a slut who deserved it and therefore acquit your client.

But who the hell knows if that's true. It's probably not.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 07- 1-11 8:07 AM
horizontal rule
8

leblanc!


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 07- 1-11 8:48 AM
horizontal rule
9

Isn't it massively illegal for jurors to discuss jury deliberations with anyone, let alone on the record with journalists? Or is that just an English thing?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 8:21 AM
horizontal rule
10

9: Apparently it varies. Wikipedia:

In English law, the jury's deliberations must never be disclosed outside the jury, even years after the case; to repeat parts of the trial or verdict, is considered to be contempt of court, a criminal offense. In the United States, this rule usually does not apply, and sometimes jurors have made remarks that called into question whether a verdict was properly arrived at. In Australia, academics are permitted to scrutinize the jury process only after obtaining a certificate or approval from the Attorney-General.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 8:50 AM
horizontal rule
11
Now if you forget my birthday darling
it won't mean a thing (what was your birthday anyway)
just buy me a card from thrifty's
two days late that'll be okay (some cake and ice cream by the way)
Most importantly you should not be eager to impress
Basically what you need is a man in a dress
You need a man in a dress

MP3 at the link.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 9:16 AM
horizontal rule
12

Dammit! Wrong thread.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 9:16 AM
horizontal rule
13

Now this is bizarre -- wasn't there just a thread about misogyny where someone was pleased to be living with his girlfriend who was a "dude with a vagina"? Because I clearly have a very relevant and enjoyable song to share in that thread, and now I can't find it in any of the main page threads.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 9:32 AM
horizontal rule
14

It's the Yves Smith one, k-sky.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 9:39 AM
horizontal rule
15

10 -- IME, in civil cases, we get permission from the judge, which always has strict conditions: only in the courthouse, only immediately after the verdict, not a bit if they say they're not interested in talking, etc.


Posted by: ChrleyCarp | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 9:52 AM
horizontal rule
16

15 When I was on a jury for a civil trial we were allowed to discuss the case with the lawyers after the verdict, and one of the lawyers got my email address for a couple follow-up questions. On the other hand, we were told that we were not allowed to discuss anything about the case with the judge. (I think because he might still have to make some rulings about the case if there's some problem with the deliberations?)

The discussions afterwards were somewhat interesting because one of the jurors was a lawyer who had very recently worked as a partner in a big defense firm. For example, apparently lawyers are taught to speak quietly when examining the "defendant" (or whatever the right word is, here it was the manager of the church where the plaintiff was injured, she wasn't actually the defendant though because the church itself was). The idea being that if you come off as mean and bullying then the jurors will sympathise with the defendant. But as it turns out, talking quietly is really annoying because you can't hear! And all the jurors were just annoyed at the lawyer anyway. So yeah, don't speak quietly.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 10:05 AM
horizontal rule
17

It's an interesting cultural reference point that some lawyer understood "respectfully" to mean "quietly."


Posted by: ChrleyCarp | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
18

The more important rule is that jurors must be entertained. Not necessarily amused; and sometimes to subject matter lends itself to serious drama. But entertaining it must be.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 10:20 AM
horizontal rule
19

I have two good "bored jurors" stories from my trial.

First the judge had a great great rule: "As soon as someone mentions a break, we take a break. Otherwise the jurors won't be able to think about the trial." I've found that a good corollary to this is that if you're giving a talk you can't ask in the last 5-10 minutes "how much time do I have left?" because if you do then the audience knows the talk is ending soon and will be watching the clock instead of you.

Second, at some point we were listening to horribly horribly boring videotaped medical testimony. After a break the judge was all "I know all this videotaped testimony is really boring, but just imagine how much worse it was before when we had to read aloud people's depositions." And the lawyers were all "hrm, I guess you looked at what's on the schedule for tomorrow." And the judge said "Will that really be necessary?" The next morning we arrived and the judge announced "Our very professional lawyers have agreed to a stipulation." And there was no read-aloud testimony.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 10:43 AM
horizontal rule
20

Had a fun read aloud experience, what, 12 years ago: husband and wife team, making eyes at each other as they read. Didn't notice how completely uninterested the jurors were. 50 minutes they went on. Watching the jury, I edited my rebuttal reading down to about 90 seconds. Got good reactions.

Later in the same trial, they showed video -- droning talking head video -- and we did our rebuttal as read-aloud. Same time ratio.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 10:58 AM
horizontal rule
21

||
My sweetie's pants fall off because he is basically carrot-shaped. How can he wear suspenders without looking like a Gekko wannabe ?
|>


Posted by: LADY DISRAELI | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 12:10 PM
horizontal rule
22

Sam Browne?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 1:43 PM
horizontal rule
23

21: Who says suspenders have to be worn outside the shirt.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 1:56 PM
horizontal rule
24

I mean, other than the people who make suspenders.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 2:12 PM
horizontal rule
25

The conventions of employment include a gentleman's shirt remaining tucked into his trouser waistband, and shirts are not constructed to allow internal braces. Perhaps I should apply ingenuity and my needle.

Buttons on a bicyclist's bib would work to well.


Posted by: LADY DISRAELI | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 2:18 PM
horizontal rule
26

You could sew his pants to his shirt each morning and make sure his diet leaves him very, very regular.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 2:33 PM
horizontal rule
27

Did his pants fall off during a fun, public occasion?

Those of us who are basically potato shaped are jealous of the carrot shaped.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 3:14 PM
horizontal rule
28

You could sew his pants to his shirt each morning and make sure his diet leaves him very, very regular.

Or he could just wear a dress.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 3:29 PM
horizontal rule
29

I think the trick is to rock the suspenders with confidence. If he is a Gekko wannabe, then it will reveal his character. If he is anything other, then it will demonstrate individual style, doubled by his insistence that he's not being affected, he just needs to hold his pants up.

I say this as someone who enjoyed wearing suspenders with my suits. I was never mistaken for a Gekko.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 3:29 PM
horizontal rule
30

Isn't the answer just to buy pants that fit? Or am I missing something about men's anatomy and the mysterious carrot shape?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 3:49 PM
horizontal rule
31

Elasticized waistband pants! Elasticized belt! Since I take it a regular belt doesn't work, the carrot shape in question being not a gradual taper, but nearly top (as in spinning top) shaped.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:11 PM
horizontal rule
32

What is a top-shaped root vegetable? = a turnip


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:13 PM
horizontal rule
33

This just in: Former President Itamar Franco is still dead. Take note, self-abusers.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:14 PM
horizontal rule
34

BBC autocorrect fail:
St Pauls will all be shut.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:17 PM
horizontal rule
35

Okay, that did not go according to plan:
So the closure of leisure facilities is likely to have the most immediate impact. Parks, campsites, the state zoo and the landmark Capitol building in state capital St Pauls will all be shut. [Imagine extra emphasis on "St Pauls"] -- From an article on the state government shutdown here.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:19 PM
horizontal rule
36

32: I thought to go there, it's true, but feared that people might begin to argue over the root vegetables:

Turnip!
No, beet! Beet, beet!
What is this "beet"? Are you saying the man has no legs?
Well I don't suppose his legs are much to remark on if he's shaped like a turnip!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:24 PM
horizontal rule
37

In any event, if the Lady Disraeli cares to elaborate: why does a regular belt not work?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:38 PM
horizontal rule
38

30 was me! Oops.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:43 PM
horizontal rule
39

Are the pants actually falling like a Benny Hill sketch or are we taking about a white collar version of plumber-butt?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:54 PM
horizontal rule
40

I don't think I understand why belts don't work.

Apropos of nothing, I find it fairly weird that someone clicked through to my university webpage while attempting to Google my sexual orientation.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 4:57 PM
horizontal rule
41

I only just now realized you guys were talking about Gordon Gekko, and not an actual gecko.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:08 PM
horizontal rule
42

Gecko suspenders (scroll down and read the review).


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:10 PM
horizontal rule
43

40: Do I even want to know how you can tell someone was googling your sexual orientation? Also, who?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:16 PM
horizontal rule
44

42: The idea of dead-gecko doorstops made me chuckle, I'm ashamed to admit.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:16 PM
horizontal rule
45

I find it fairly weird that someone clicked through to my university webpage while attempting to Google my sexual orientation.

I find it somewhat weirder that someone was attempting to Google your sexual orientation in the first place.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:16 PM
horizontal rule
46

I don't currently understand how men's belts ever work, given that their waists are often wider than teir hips. Are the belts tightened enough to create their own shelf?
Doesn't that interfere with the digestion?

Elastics seek the narrowest level, around his knees.

I'll get him some suspenders. Any views on X-backed vs. Y-backed?

I don't think he's all that much sleeker than the average, but if I give him my pocket change to carry his pants fall right off. This is funniest if I've also burdened his arms.


Posted by: LADY DISRAELI | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:19 PM
horizontal rule
47

43: They Googled my name, the name of the university where I work, and 'gay'. I can tell because I can see the Google search referral string in the data for visitors to my webpage. I'm with teo in thinking this is really weird, to begin with, and the fact that they thought my professional webpage would answer their question adds to the weirdness. I have no idea who, although given the location I would guess it's someone working in my field at a particular university. There's no one there who I'm more than vaguely acquainted with. All very strange.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:26 PM
horizontal rule
48

Although, given that Google always wants to autocomplete the name of my next employer with the word "married", I guess people get curious about that sort of thing.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:28 PM
horizontal rule
49

46: Weird. My pants won't fall that far without a belt and with full pockets.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:30 PM
horizontal rule
50

What holds them up, Moby Hick? ...."some people can be both funny and vulgar."


Posted by: LADY DISRAELI | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:38 PM
horizontal rule
51

"If your pants stay up for more than four hours at a time without a belt or suspenders, you should seek medical advice immediately."


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:39 PM
horizontal rule
52

46: I don't currently understand how men's belts ever work, given that their waists are often wider than teir hips.

This is making me do some imaginative work. The only male currently at my disposal, at whose waist-to-hips ratio I might covertly gaze, is my housemate, who's 6'7" and whose pants never fit for that reason. He is indeed shaped roughly like a carrot, but the pants-fitting business has to do with his height.

I think a lot of men do have waists?

essear: Someone is clearly interested in you.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:43 PM
horizontal rule
53

If I thought you were hot, I would want to know if you were gay. I would probably google "is essear unfogged state gay" and see what happened. Lower stakes than admitting interest by asking someone.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:47 PM
horizontal rule
54

And yes, I know the "is" is superfluous, but that's how I roll.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:48 PM
horizontal rule
55

Does he not have an ass? I've concluded my ass is carrying much of the load.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 5:54 PM
horizontal rule
56

I'm wearing pants with no belt and trying to pull them down, in case anybody wants to replicate my methods. Some pressure on my hips, but mostly on the upper ass.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:03 PM
horizontal rule
57

Hence the name, I'm sure, as a bearer of burdens. It looks like an ass. It feels like an ass. Why does it not hold his pants up?


Posted by: LADY DISRAELI | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:05 PM
horizontal rule
58

Maybe the researcher actually thinks essear's research is lame.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:09 PM
horizontal rule
59

I have replicated Moby's findings. I'm not sure we're a statistically significant sample, though.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:09 PM
horizontal rule
60

58 to 59, perhaps.

52.last and 53 seem unlikely since I haven't encountered anyone from this place in over a year, as far as I'm aware.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:11 PM
horizontal rule
61

Somebody with a bermless ass might have pants-retention issues.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:12 PM
horizontal rule
62

obligatory archive link (a useful thread for other reasons, too)


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:32 PM
horizontal rule
63

What work is "state" doing in 53?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:33 PM
horizontal rule
64

To do this scientifically, Lady Disraeli needs to get Ben to stand with back against the wall and then see how many standard bratwursts fit in the cavity made by the wall and the small of his back.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:36 PM
horizontal rule
65

63: "unfogged state" is the pseud of essear's university.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 6:45 PM
horizontal rule
66

"Up against the wall, darling; I have the sausages."

I may be some time.


Posted by: LADY DISRAELI | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 7:04 PM
horizontal rule
67

It is a wonder how Lady D's sweetie has kept his pants aloft lo these many years.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 7:20 PM
horizontal rule
68

"unfogged state" s/b "University of North Florida", or so many mistypings would have me believe.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 7:29 PM
horizontal rule
69

He's been making sudden grabs the whole time, except, he says, when plump.

No votes on X vs Y braces? There are even some that attach at the side seams, and others that clip to the belt. Unfogged is usually full of passionate intensity on hipster vs nerd fashion.


Posted by: LADY DISRAELI | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 10:31 PM
horizontal rule
70

dudes with skinny asses can find pants falling down. This is especially true if you with pants that you buy deliberately too big so that they're not too tight right after a wash and dry. However, I'm not clear on why belts don't work. While many of my pants and shorts will seek to wander downwards on their own, with a belt they stay obediently in place.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 11:37 PM
horizontal rule
71

I've only ever had Y.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07- 2-11 11:49 PM
horizontal rule
72

Maybe his pants are just too big? Has he tried the next smaller size?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 07- 3-11 1:01 AM
horizontal rule
73

21: He can conceal the suspenders under a waistcoat. That's what I did when I was wearing suspenders.


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 07- 3-11 2:05 PM
horizontal rule
74

many of my pants and shorts will seek to wander downwards on their own

"The jury will, of course, form their own conclusions."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 07- 4-11 1:29 AM
horizontal rule