Re: Milk and Eggs

1

Can somebody explain why they demand eggs that are unwashed? Is it because commercial egg washery uses bad chemicals and they want to wash them with 7th Generation dish soap or it is because they want dirty eggs?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:42 AM
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Not washing eggs seems like pointlessly taking things to an extreme. Why not just drop the food on the floor and eat it from there while you're at it?

As for the raid, the story is reminiscent of Chew


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:44 AM
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I'm not at all happy they got arrested, but I'm going to pass on the raw millk.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:47 AM
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I read that as "we are aware that the eggs are not washed and might be gross", more like a waiver. It's not a dazzlingly well-written manifesto- the syntax of the "I demand" part doesn't go with most of the demands.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:48 AM
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4: That makes sense.

Also, one of the members is named Buttery.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:49 AM
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Anyway, my sister, now in vet school, used to work on a chicken farm and she claims that washing eggs destroys some sort of natural antibacterial covering, so as long as you are handling them correctly (not getting bits of shell in the eggs), it's safer to have unwashed eggs than washed. I have no additional sourcing for this claim so she might have made it up.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:51 AM
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(not getting bits of shell in the eggs)

I think that if you crack the eggs on something flat, you are less likely to get the shell in the egg. You're not supposed to crack the egg on the edge of the bowl.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:53 AM
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You're not supposed to crack the egg on the edge of the bowl.

Maybe. But do you actually know anybody who's so far up themselves that they don't?

I think food safety laws are one of the markers of civilisation, but this kind of shit only serves to discredit the agency, which, god knows, isn't what they need at the moment.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:56 AM
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The (DFH?) internet seems to think that washing eggs makes the shells porous and more vulnerable to bacteria than leaving them unwashed until right before use.

e. g.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:57 AM
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No comment on the bail amount, but "menace" is the proper word for widescale distribution of unpasteurized milk. Despite the cliche it is proper here to get off of my lawn, kid think of the children.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:59 AM
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9: He's either a great expert on eggs or the most deadpan troller I've seen in ages. Either way, hats off.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:00 AM
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Anyway the part of the article I found the most awesome was how the little hippie co-op hadn't made anybody sick, but got all arrested, while the giant corporation made lots of people sick, but didn't get arrested at all. All in the midst of budget crises galore, and including long-term undercover co-op members.

I like raw milk. And raw cheese. And eggnog made from raw milk and fresh eggs.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:00 AM
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My mom makes me soft-boiled eggs!


Posted by: Pauly Shore | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:01 AM
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14

10 - ? It doesn't seem like it was widespread at all, and nobody was trying to sneak anything into your kids' milk cartons.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:02 AM
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Would the co-op be allowed to consume raw milk and unwashed eggs if it reorganized as a church?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:02 AM
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"menace" is the proper word for widescale distribution of unpasteurized milk

True indeed. But what we see here is small scale distribution of unpasteurised milk among a group of people who've signed disclaimers.

If I were allowed an analogy (heaven forfend), I would suggest that assault and battery ought to be illegal, but consensual BDSM is just fine.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:03 AM
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All, all, all.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:04 AM
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14: Only poor kids have milk cartons now. The cool kids have the box with the straw you jab through the foil.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:05 AM
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If corporations we're leftist they'd get arrested too.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:06 AM
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How does this affect the scheduling of the inevitable war between vegan hippies and back-to-the-land-and-kill-chickens hippies? Because I have a couple of things to do this week, but will make time to help set up the bleachers.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:13 AM
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14: Not my children, but someone's children. Milk being, you know, milk, I suspect that a fair amount found its way to the insides of children who had not signed the manifesto themselves. Hippies sometimes do make babies, and even feed them.

"Let's get the government out of the regulation of food safety," while a tenet of tea party-ism, is a bit discordant on this site.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:18 AM
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New-England-centric Robert Frost on prayer and food handling:

"Teach those Asians mass production?
Teach your grandmother egg suction."

from An Importer


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:25 AM
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Isn't there a concern that people infected due to (consensually) drinking raw milk can be both asymptomatic and infectious to non-consenting third parties? um, TB or brucellosis or something?


Posted by: Abelard | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:30 AM
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21 et al -- I can confirm that a lot of this raw milk (indeed, I think from this very place but am not totally sure) is going to little kids.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:31 AM
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Who's saying, "Let's get the government out of the regulation of food safety" on this site?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:32 AM
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At one point was it decided that milk cartons did not create enough waste for the landfill, and needed to be replaced with foil pouches or adulterated with plastic spouts?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:35 AM
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Just to clarify 21, my ex is into raw milk and so my kid drinks it. It freaks me out a bit but I haven't been too worried about it and there's not really anything I can do about it. I think big dairy is pretty evil and pasteurized milk sucks but then again I'm glad we're not just letting a bunch of hippies avoid the food safety laws because they seem hippie-ish.*

*there's a substantial overlap here with the "no vaccine" crowd.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:40 AM
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The government has no business regulating food safety! People can take care of themselves!


Posted by: Opinionated Individual Made Out of Straw | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:41 AM
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and there's not really anything I can do about it

California family courts have gone round the bend or what?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:41 AM
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No, don't eat me! Bad horsie! Bad!


Posted by: OPINIONATED INDIVIDUAL MADE OF HAY | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:42 AM
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29 -- well, yes, but I really mean not without prompting a fight that seems totally not worth it.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:43 AM
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I was willing to accept that Obama was a Muslim and very likely not a US citizen. But if he's also a Vegan, I'm voting for the Mormon or the Christian, I think, as those guys eat meat. Or maybe I can convince Halford to mount a third-party (Paleo Party?) challenge.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:44 AM
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Pasteurized milk, like vaccination, can divide the science-minded public health left from the hippie-be-free-and natural left. This is a difficult one for me, because I belong to the science-minded public health left, but travel in circles dominated by the hippie-be-free-and-natural left. I don't make nearly as much of an argument about pasteurization as I do about vaccines, though.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:45 AM
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34

I read that as "we are aware that the eggs are not washed and might be gross", more like a waiver.

Well, yeah. So just wash the eggs (notwithstanding the suggestions elsewhere in the thread).


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:46 AM
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35

34 to 4


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:46 AM
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I don't make nearly as much of an argument about pasteurization as I do about vaccines, though.

This is very likely because you're not insane familiar with the relative scientific merits of each argument, isn't it?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:47 AM
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I don't really believe the hippie-be-free-and-natural claims about how raw milk is so healthy and I should drink it because it will cure all my ailments. But I do like the way it tastes, so if somebody else goes to the trouble of getting some, I'll totally drink the eggnog they make out of it. For science.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:48 AM
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34- I think they do wash the eggs, before they use them, they just don't want/need the eggs to be washed before purchase*.

*or whatever it is. Exchange? Donation? Whatever.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:49 AM
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Which is to say, raw milk, if sourced properly, is at worst only a danger to a small group of people -- and quite likely not even that -- but choosing not to vaccinate one's children is both more dangerous and also a matter of broader public health concern.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:49 AM
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40

I'm surprised anyone can get their kids to drink non-pasteurized milk. We sometimes by milk that is pasteurized but no homogenized, and the kids refuse it because it has "chunks."

I'm frustrated here because the hippie-free-and-natural left has so much more buying power than the be-nicer-to-cows-and-chickens left that they totally dominate how non-industrial milk and eggs are marketed, so it is hard to judge what you are really buying.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:51 AM
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41

How does the risk of properly handled unpasteurized milk compare to the risk of properly handled sushi? Because while I don't have statistics, based on my personal anecdotal references, I'd guess that "no one has gotten sick in the last 12 years" is not something that I think could be said of any busy sushi restaurant. Yet, we allow that, with a little FDA disclaimer on the menu about the dangers of comsuming raw or undercooked fish.

I've even seen people feeding sushi to their children.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:51 AM
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42

I've even seen people feeding sushi to their children.

We cut out the middleman by buying really old thermometers, breaking them, and feeding our kids straight quicksilver. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that this is an urple family recipe.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:56 AM
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43

That's not mercury in the fish. It's ocean silver and I'm going to be rich.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:08 AM
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44

Regarding parental food decisions, a FB acquaintance reported yesterday having seen a mother give her ~5yo three Red Bull cans in a row, a story which I found very hard to believe, if only because I can't imagine why a parent would set him or herself up for misery like that.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:10 AM
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45

I can't tell if 42 was just a senseless joke, or if it was meant to be some sort of sarcastic response. If I take it seriously as a response to 41, I'd interpret it as saying that the government should be arresting people who sell sushi, just like they arrest people who sell unpasteurized milk. Or, at least, arresting people who allow children to consume it. Or something. Could you clarify?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:13 AM
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46

Maybe the mom was being frugal and didn't want to share her cocaine.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:13 AM
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47

Could you clarify?

Given your tone, no.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:14 AM
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44: Maybe she shares custody and was about to hand the kid over?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:14 AM
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49

But in case your misinterpret that as well, I was just kidding around. Both times.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:14 AM
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49: I guess you think it's funny.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:16 AM
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When I eat sushi, I've often wondered about the really soft green-fleshed fish that the put in some of the rolls. What kind of fish is that?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:19 AM
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Is this going to be one of those "wait, is urple trolling us, or just being urple?" threads?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:20 AM
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50: the idea of feeding children mercury directly from old thermometers? Yes. You don't?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:20 AM
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51: Avacuda.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:23 AM
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I'm not offended that Von Wafer attempted to make a joke about this very serious topic, I'm just offended at the quality of the joke. And I was actually confused genuinely confused about whether the joke was just intended as pure (nonsubstantive) humor, or if it was intended as a humorous response to 41. Sometimes people do that.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:27 AM
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55: I suggest we dig a pit and arm ourselves with broadswords.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:31 AM
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Von Wafer's joke fails because the best source of mercury is obviously old barometers. Feeding your kids thermometers is penny-ante.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:31 AM
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58

I didn't mean to be overly serious. Here's a picture of a clown, to help lighten the mood.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:33 AM
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59

Now I'm offended.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:39 AM
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60

So the ever-so-rational markets are responding to worries that bonds are risky by dumping stocks and buying bonds? Some subset of investors, news media, and me is totally missing the point here, I think. Maybe all of the above.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:39 AM
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the best source of mercury is obviously old barometers

Not true. If your children are conceived in the backseat of a Mercury, they're set for life.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:42 AM
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Build your own clown. They bring joy to everyone.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:44 AM
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63

You can also get the Mercury you need in Montreux.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:44 AM
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Apparently, even pasteurized milk can have problems.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:48 AM
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I suggest we dig a pit and arm ourselves with broadswords.

The pit seems to be a myth. The broadswords are real.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:54 AM
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66

60: This is the greatest thing ever to have happened. I can't decide if its either a) unrelated, but the people who write the headlines are just really stupid, or b) investors are really stupid. I'm imagining that investors are like single-celled organisms, and when they receive a positive stimulus from their environment they buy stocks, while when they receive a negative stimulus they buy bonds. The S&P downgrade is a negative stimulus, so they react accordingly.

It's more likely that the market commentary is shitty, though.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:54 AM
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Naw, Von Wafer is being regional. The best source for mercury here is from river fish, since we're still seeing mercury from gold mining being flushed into our rivers. My boss reports that up in the foothills, you can pan for mercury and bring it home in large lovely globules.

I had raw milk at the farmers' market a couple weeks ago. I expected it to taste more different than it did.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:56 AM
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Daycare center on site of former mercury thermometer factory = lawyer's dream.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:58 AM
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The best source for mercury is syfy.com.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:00 AM
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33: I try to stay in vegan DFH left circles as much as possible. I think most of the people I know are more on the public health end (given that the anti-fluoridation campaigner we all know gets a lot of eye-rolling), but with vegan food, there's much less risk. Also, i never drink milk or eat eggs, despite not being vegan.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:09 AM
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I'm imagining that investors are like single-celled organisms, and when they receive a positive stimulus from their environment they buy stocks, while when they receive a negative stimulus they buy bonds.

(A) I love this a lot, but (B) there could be a version of this where it makes sense. So, the S&P downgrade doesn't actually mean that the US is likely to literally default on its bonds in any meaningful way -- there's no sense in which bonds got riskier because S&P downgraded them. Nonetheless, the downgrade is an indication that really bad things are happening generally -- while it's a non-event in terms of accurately describing the riskiness of treasuries, it's a real event in terms of demonstrating the instability of the financial institutions we rely on. So that might be a sensible reason to flee equities into safer (whatever S&P says about them) bonds.

I don't know that that's a good strategy, but I can see it as something that might possibly be rational.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:10 AM
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||
Bring back flogging. Or get rid of idiotic sentences for minor offenses, three strikes laws, and prisons that do nothing to reform.
|>


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:13 AM
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I like the single-celled organism analogy comparison. But I wonder what fraction of trading is done by computer programs that essentially are such organisms, integrating stimuli mindlessly.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:15 AM
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Speaking of crime & punishment, one of the things I find most interesting about the English press coverage of the Tottenham riots is that the early, eyewitness report by a BBC radio correspondent that the incident that actually set off the riot was a line of police severely beating a 16 year-old girl who had gone up to ask them where the justice was in this situation, has been completely elided from subsequent reports.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:18 AM
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If flogging comes back as a substitute for imprisonment, I'd give it about 15 minutes before people start making political hay about calling for its use in addition to imprisonment. And of course, that would subsequently become the norm, because that's how you "get tough" on crime, and its not like its rich white kids who will be getting the bulk of the flogging.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:25 AM
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74. Ah. Here too. I was talking to somebody about this just an hour or so ago and we agreed that there was obviously a lot of back story missing. That would probably set off a riot in the way that taking out a local Yardie wouldn't. Makes sense, but I still feel there's a lot of history still to emerge.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:28 AM
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73: Isn't it about 100% nowadays?


Posted by: Cyptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:32 AM
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I'm imagining that investors are like single-celled organisms, and when they receive a positive stimulus from their environment they buy stocks, while when they receive a negative stimulus they buy bonds.

At a high enough level, this is pretty accurate, provided you substitute Treasuries for bonds. It's pretty much the reaction I expected, to be honest, although equities have sold off a little stronger than I though.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:33 AM
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Listening to it again, it is confusing about who the fellow speaking is, maybe he's not a reporter. But he does seem like a fairly unbiased eyewitness.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwUyZ68C0k&feature=youtu.be&a


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:33 AM
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Also, now it is coming out that the bullet lodged in the officer's radio was apparently police-issue, and the gun allegedly taken from the scene was found in the guy's sock.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:36 AM
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81

The British must have the world's strongest sock elastic or really small guns.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:38 AM
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82

The official reaction seems a little disproportionate, given that the FDA can't even issue mandatory recalls of contaminated industrially-produced food (like last week's ground turkey episode.)


Posted by: julia f | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:39 AM
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83

That's different. You aren't actually supposed to eat ground turkey.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:40 AM
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84

I was just about to say something like 82, but apparently the FDA got that authority earlier this year.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:40 AM
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81: Eh, if it was one of those little .25 automatics, I think any reasonably new athletic sock would hold it against the leg pretty well.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:40 AM
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85: You'd need to buy new socks every week.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:42 AM
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83: You aren't actually supposed to eat ground turkey.

I only eat marine turkey. It's like Chicken of the Sea, but bigger.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:42 AM
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81,85: You guys have the wrong idea.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:44 AM
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89

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.


Posted by: Les Nessman | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:44 AM
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If you put the gun in your sock, the bullets don't leave a mark.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:47 AM
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89: Wasn't it Arthur Carlson who said that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:51 AM
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92

I'm here to brighten, tighten and enlighten your starlight hours.


Posted by: Venus Flytrap | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:58 AM
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93

Wild turkeys can fly. Domestic turkeys are too fat.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:58 AM
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84: Whoops! Excellent news.


Posted by: julia f | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:59 AM
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the incident that actually set off the riot was a line of police severely beating a 16 year-old girl who had gone up to ask them where the justice was in this situation thrown a stone at them.

FTFY.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:59 AM
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96

Feeding Wild Turkey to a child is probably not a good idea.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 9:59 AM
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93: Technically, in the U.S., all turkeys are domestic.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:00 AM
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I guess my non hippie parents are lucky they didn't get imprisoned or something. My mom loved going to her grandfather's farm in the summer when she was a kid and wangled my dad into going along with keeping goats, chickens, ducks, geese, etc. Five kids and we all drank raw goat milk and ate unwashed eggs for years.

When you're a kid, making breakfast with a couple giant honking goose eggs is awesome.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:01 AM
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91: Yep, here's Les's contribution from the parking lot:

"It's a helicopter, and it's coming this way. It's flying something behind it, I can't quite make it out, it's a large banner and it says, uh - Happy... Thaaaaanksss... giving! ... From ... W ... K ... R... P!! No parachutes yet. Can't be skydivers... I can't tell just yet what they are, but - Oh my God, Johnny, they're turkeys!! Johnny, can you get this? Oh, they're plunging to the earth right in front of our eyes! One just went through the windshield of a parked car! Oh, the humanity! The turkeys are hitting the ground like sacks of wet cement! Not since the Hindenburg tragedy has there been anything like this!"


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:02 AM
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97: all turkeys are domestic.

It's a special treaty like NAFTA.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:04 AM
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101

Domestic, not domesticated. Lay-deez.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:05 AM
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95: I've only been checking the BBC and Guardian, where are you seeing this report of her throwing a stone?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:10 AM
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66: It just means the market thinks we're headed for another recession, because Congress can't (and doesn't really seem to want to) get its act together and fix things. Recessions affect stock returns long before they affect bond returns.


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:10 AM
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71 is right. Investors are being perfectly rational here. They are leaving the market that is driven by perception and rumor (stocks) and going to the market whose fundamentals are still sound (bonds).

The interesting thing here is that the media is too stupid/evil to cover the bond market response, even though it has lovely dog-bites-man aspect to it. I'm going with evil as the explanation here. Editors have decided to lead with the stock market response because it makes Obama look bad.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:12 AM
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105

I find that Wild Turkey and Red Bull is the perfect cocktail for my 5 year old.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:13 AM
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106

IOW it matters how safe bonds are relative to the next-best alternative, not how safe they are absolutely.


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:13 AM
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From the Daily Mail:

The violence last night started soon after a crowd of about 120 had begun to gather at the High Road, near Tottenham Hotspur's football ground, from about 5.30pm.

One resident, Laurence Bailey, told the Guardian that the violence started after a 16-year-old girl 'threw something, maybe a stone, at the original riot police line'.

He added that this was met with a furious response, with around 15 riot officers pounding her with shields.

This description of events was corroborated by another local who spoke to BBC News. He said that the girl was 'set upon' by police and that the crowd surged forward in anger.

Emphasis added.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:16 AM
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Editors always lead with the stock market. Also, as I said above, there is no single thing called "the bond market". Corporate and high yield bonds are down. Treasuries are up. As you'd expect in a risk-off move.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:19 AM
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As a reliable news source, the Daily Mail ranks well below the Washington Times and marginally above Fox.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:20 AM
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109: Precisely. That's why I'm going to believe the BBC report, which was from an eyewitness and happened within a few hours of the incident, rather than something the cops and corporate media drum up 2 days later.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:22 AM
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Treasuries are up

These are obviously the ones we are concerned with.

I need to step away from the internet. I've had too much coffee, and no matter what site I go to, it seems to have a higher than usual proportion of people who are being Wrong on the Internet.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:23 AM
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109, 110: To be fair, the Daily Mail was referencing this Guardian article.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:27 AM
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Treasuries are up.

That happens automatically when it gets colder.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:27 AM
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re: 6

A school friend of mine was an environmental health officer [the sort of person who inspects food producers and restaurants], and, apparently, in the UK eggs are supposed (under health and safety legislation) to be supplied unwashed for precisely that sort of reason. He may have been shitting me, but given that it matches your 6, I think not.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:28 AM
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Isn't the solution here just raw irradiated milk and eggs? Keeps the raw taste, eliminates most of the risks. (The fact that it would annoy the "ewww, so unnatural!" people I see as a feature.)


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:32 AM
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Isn't it always the case with riots that it doesn't matter what happened in actuality, but what was perceived to have happened by the riotous crowd? If there are rumors going round that the police beat a 16-year-old girl without provocation, that's surely enough to get spirits up. Given the general attitude toward cops that I've noticed in the UK, it seems entirely likely that it would be well believed.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:35 AM
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The S&P downgrade and the markets' flight from risk should make my meetings tomorrow and Wednesday super-awesome. I was feeling confident about my part in the pageant, but I'm not sure I'll even get a chance to show off my buzzwords.

OT: Two different girls at the gym check-in counter have complimented my haircut, which makes me glad that I don't take a more active part in the cutting-my-hair business than just sitting there and meekly submitting to whatever the very nice woman feels like doing.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:37 AM
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So, at least, whatever happens at the meetings you'll know your hair looks good. And really, isn't that the most important thing?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:50 AM
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I've only been checking the BBC and Guardian, where are you seeing this report of her throwing a stone?

On the Guardian. You quoted a Daily Hate article, which as chris rightly says is not a reliable source; but in this case it's quoting the Guardian!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 10:56 AM
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118: I am puzzled by the implication that there are other important things.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:12 AM
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Isn't it always the case with riots that it doesn't matter what happened in actuality, but what was perceived to have happened by the riotous crowd?

Yes. Crowds are idiotic and I've seen it first hand, although it wasn't as bad as what's going on in Tottenham. Someone yells something and now it's fact and several witnesses who are no such thing will pop up.

The Earth Jam concert here in May had an incident with the crowd surrounding some of our guys chanting "kill the police" and a bunch of us had to go in there and push the crowd back. A guy was being arrested at the request of staff at the concert because he was high as shit and belligerently going into tents and rooting through purses and stuff. He also fights like crazy when he's high ( I know this firsthand because myself and another officer had a long drawn out fight with this idiot a year and a half ago). But hey, it's time to surround the cops and threaten them because we're just arresting a peaceful Earth Jam dude and brutalizing him for no reason. I guarantee if news cameras had shown up "witnesses" would have rushed to the cameras to tell that account.

The claims of the bullet in the radio being police issue sound nonsensical. It might be indeed a bullet from friendly fire but there's no tests to run at the scene to determine if it's police issue. Police aren't using handcrafted artisan bullets. Police ammo are rounds from big manufacturers that can be bought by the general public (granted this probably isn't as true in the UK)


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:15 AM
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Police aren't using handcrafted artisan bullets.

The kids today just don't put the effort into it that I did.


Posted by: Opinionated Lone Ranger | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:22 AM
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110: I saw the report that the girl threw a stone in very early news reports in the BBC or the Guardian, so it didn't take days for the claim to appear. (I can't find the article I remember reading now, though.)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:22 AM
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Police aren't using handcrafted artisan bullets. Police ammo are rounds from big manufacturers that can be bought by the general public

Actually no, apparently: the Guardian says that it was identified (not at the scene, but in later ballistic testing) as being a special non-penetrating dumdum round used by police but, presumably, not as easily obtained by criminals. Essentially no handgun ammunition can be legally bought by the public in Britain, and rifle and shotgun ammo is controlled.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog#block-34


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:23 AM
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Essentially no handgun ammunition can be legally bought by the public in Britain...

Then how do they load their handguns?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:25 AM
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I am puzzled by the implication that there are other important things.

There is also one's tan.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:27 AM
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Has a riotous crowd ever been dispersed by the tactical deployment of a comforting, relaxing rumor? Perhaps something about somebody giving away free doughnuts and cider?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:27 AM
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My understanding is that London police tend to use silver bullets, due to that city's famed werewolf infestation.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:31 AM
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I heard there's a backrub circle in the north parking lot.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:31 AM
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119: Right, but, my point with quoting that was that, even there, what we're hearing is pretty egregious. "Maybe a stone" "15 cops set upon her" etc.

121: Well, of course, I wouldn't expect the officers actually involved in the shooting to be doing ballistics tests at the scene. But presumably they do have some idea whether they were justified in shooting the guy. And moreover, this fits in so well with the general police practice of only releasing information that would tend to exculpate officers, and fabricating much of that, that I tend to think there might be something to the reports that the fellow was not, in fact, shooting at anyone.

Furthermore, if the rioting and the shooting happened in metropolitan London, shouldn't both be adequately captured on about a dozen CCTV feeds? Where are those? Are they going to be conveniently deleted? Are the cameras involved going to be just the ones which had been taken down the week before for maintenance?

Here's the facts of the situation, as we know them now:
1. A young black man was shot by the police.
2. A peaceful protest march arrived at the police station with the demand that a senior official speak to the family and community leaders.
3. The police responded by sending out 100 officers armed with batons and shields, and stonewalling any possibility of a meeting for over 4 hours.
4. "It went off"

I think Bill Buford's Among the Thugs is pretty instructive here. When you've got a group of people with no particular reason to trust the police* and a group of police who are armed and ready to fight, it really doesn't take much to set it off. In one of Buford's accounts, for instance, it merely takes one football supporter stepping into the street to get both sides rioting.

*Let's remember that this is occurring in the following context: A working-class, integrated neighborhood which is suffering from high rates of crime, poverty and joblessness; significant cuts in social services; several recent incidents where police attacked protestors, resulting in very severe injuries and at least one death; and a police watch-dog agency which has no teeth and no desire to use them: 333 deaths in police custody since 1983 [almost exactly one per month on average], without a single officer convicted of anything.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:31 AM
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Me, obvs.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:32 AM
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127 - I believe that can dissipate a lynch mob led by Chief Wiggum.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:32 AM
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Furthermore, all of the recent police scandals (NotW stuff; infiltrating environmental groups, etc.)


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:36 AM
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Five kids and we all drank raw goat milk and ate unwashed eggs for years.

My dad and his three brothers too, though more often cow milk than goat milk. He always talks about how the milk tasted different in the different seasons, especially the milk from a cow eating the new green grass of spring.

My dad's stories about the food they had as a poor family growing most of their own stuff often end up being the same sorts of foods you can pay $$$ for at Whole Foods and read rapturous articles about in food magazines.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:36 AM
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it was identified (not at the scene, but in later ballistic testing) as being a special non-penetrating dumdum round used by police but, presumably, not as easily obtained by criminals

What they're describing is a regular old jacketed hollow point. And they're not non penetrating, as that would make them useless. Hollow points are designed for a controlled amount of expansion to inflict max damage on the target. It does make them less likely to pass through multiple subjects but that's a side benefit, not the main objective. Most police agencies here are using Federals, Speers, or Winchesters and all of those can be bought by the case right off the shelf. Yeah, not in Britain but probably in the same manner that people "can't" buy Cuban cigars in the U.S.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:37 AM
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127: Happens all the time, but you wouldn't know it from reading the media, which always reports bad news instead of good news.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:38 AM
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He always talks about how the milk tasted different in the different seasons, especially the milk from a cow eating the new green grass of spring.

You can still taste that difference after processing. I deeply dislike the taste of milk from a cow that has been eating fresh green grass.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:38 AM
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I deeply dislike the taste of milk from a cow that has been eating fresh green grass.

R. Frost to the rescue (again):

"The Cow in Apple Time" from Mountain Interval, 1920

"Something inspires the only cow of late
To make no more of a wall than an open gate,
And think no more of wall-builders than fools.
Her face is flecked with pomace and she drools
A cider syrup. Having tasted fruit,
She scorns a pasture withering to the root.
She runs from tree to tree where lie and sweeten
The windfalls spiked with stubble and worm eaten.
She leaves them bitten when she has to fly.
She bellows on a knoll against the sky.
Her udder shrivels and the milk goes dry."


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:45 AM
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My dad's stories about the food they had as a poor family growing most of their own stuff often end up being the same sorts of foods you can pay $$$ for at Whole Foods and read rapturous articles about in food magazines.

This is very true of my step-grandmother, who at 88 maintains an amazing garden, as she has since she was a preteen on the farm, of things like amaranth and kohlrabi and oh so many other things. (Not to say that any of that is hugely exotic, but they were things that I've only seen show up in co-ops and farmers' markets in the last 12 or so years that I've been shopping for myself.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:45 AM
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He always talks about how the milk tasted different in the different seasons, especially the milk from a cow eating the new green grass of spring.

And also, presumably, depending on the recency of exposure to fallout from atmospheric nuclear testing.

Although areas near the Nevada test site were most often contaminated, the newly released data show that virtually the entire continental U.S. was affected, and "hot spots" also occurred in unpredictable places far from the site. These hot spots occurred because rainstorms sometimes caused locally heavy deposits of fallout. As a result, some children in large portions of the Midwest, parts of New England, and areas east and northeast of the test site (Idaho, Montana, and the Dakotas), received doses of iodine 131 as high as 112 rad.

These dose estimates refer not to whole-body exposure, but to the concentration of iodine-131 in the thyroid gland, which occurred primarily through the "milk pathway." As cows and goats grazed in fallout-contaminated pastures, iodine 131 contaminated their milk. Children received higher thyroid doses because they drank much more milk than adults, and because their thyroids were smaller and still growing.



Posted by: Enrico Fermi | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:53 AM
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I thought that Amaranth was the chieftain of the DĂșnedain.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:53 AM
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As of this evening there's rioting/looting breaking out sporadically across a number of bits of London.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:53 AM
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I thought that Amaranth was the chieftain of the DĂșnedain.

I thought that Amaranth was the last girl in "88 Lines About 44 Women".


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 11:57 AM
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What!? Sheep might not safely graze?

I see that the Raweseome warehouse is on Rose Avenue. Aside from the Whole Foods on Rose, there is also this awesome clown statue. Yeah, it is a digression. But this is one weird clown.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:00 PM
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When my Daddy got sick the Amaranth came and take him away.


Posted by: Opinionated 2-year Old | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:00 PM
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142. I'd like to see a map of the areas with rioting overlaid on a map of the communities the government plans to deport to Margate and Hastings by refusing to pay their Housing Benefit.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:11 PM
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I'm kind of surprised that "Amaranta" isn't among the names that people on the Internet mention when making fun of neighborhoods that they don't live in.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:11 PM
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The FDA thing: it looks pretty clearly like the "menace" is that these people are circumventing Big Agribusiness by buying straight from the farm instead of eating the supermarket food that God intended. One can't have that sort of thing catching on. It's the kind of jack-booted thuggery libertarians should have a field day with, but since the thuggery is happening on behalf of corporate power... well, we know how that goes.

And so unnecessary, too. They're missing out on the emergence of a new market niche. As processed and manufactured everything (including food) becomes ubiquitous, it's logical that the demand for authenticity (however defined) goes up.

As for the situation in London: fascinating and terrifying. Hopefully something good comes out the other end of it; not really much more to say.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:15 PM
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||
Great moments in headline writing.Currently at Yahoo Finance: Dow Below 11,000; Nasdaq, S&P Lose 5% After Obama Addresses Downgrade-AP (I can't tell if this is AP's original or something Yahoo added, the link it goes to currently has a different headline.)
|>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:16 PM
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I addresses this exact issue in an episode of my TV show Drop Dead Diva. Except that was camel milk not cow milk.

http://openbooksociety.com/article/drop-dead-diva-s3e4-the-wedding/


Posted by: Jane Bingum | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:25 PM
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re: 146

I'd like to see the same overlay done with take-up of EMA.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:26 PM
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Ok, who here besides me watches Drop Dead Diva? Seriously, that's like, a deep and dirty secret of my tv watching habits.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:31 PM
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148: The FDA thing: it looks pretty clearly like the "menace" is that these people are circumventing Big Agribusiness by buying straight from the farm instead of eating the supermarket food that God intended. One can't have that sort of thing catching on.

Pretty much. There's been a fair amount of coverage of crackdowns on raw milk purveyors over the last several years; a lot of them have gone somewhat underground as a result.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:32 PM
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Things apparently kicking off in some other UK cities, too.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:35 PM
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151. Yes, that would probably be more enlightening. Mrs y points out that the people who are going to be deported are mostly in places with relatively high rents for the crappy housing like Westminster and Camden.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:36 PM
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It's a reminder that the police -- for all the Met's paramilitary hard-man pretensions -- only maintain law and order due to the consent of others.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:40 PM
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Oh aye? Brum. As Mrs y also says, "What the fuck do they expect when there's a million NEETs?"


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:40 PM
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Leeds, too, according to a mate on Twitter, but that may be unrelated local Leeds stuff.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 12:46 PM
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135: What they're describing is a regular old jacketed hollow point

It could be the non-jacketed hollowpoints. Just reading about those on the Remington website. That would be unusual enough.

I mean, obviously the clearest evidence here will be after there has been a chance to gin up perform ballistics tests on the actual guns involved. If they aren't accidentally lost. Also, based on what specific brand and make of ammunition was in the pistol allegedly found at the scene.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:00 PM
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God it's depressing. Trying to follow the #londonriots tag on twitter keeps freezing up my browser, there are so many coming in.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:01 PM
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||

The radio is talking the new generation of college graduates, the Millennials, are being very selective about their first jobs, making a lot of demands of employers, insisting that their jobs be "fun" and "rewarding."

It sounds like a rebroadcast of a program from the middle of the tech boom, not something made in the middle of a extended economic downturn with 10% unemployment.

But the whole thing makes sense when you remember that whenever NPR or the NYT talks about "The current generation," they really only mean the current generation of Ivy League grads. These kids are, as usual, completely spoiled and entitled. Of course nothing NPR says would apply to the 20 somethings at Last Chance Community College--people who have already had kids themselves and are wondering how to feed them. They don't count as "this generation of young people." They don't even really exist, apparently.

|>


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:05 PM
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Oh aye? Brum. As Mrs y also says, "What the fuck do they expect when there's a million NEETs?"

I suspect they expect to throw them all in jail, like in the USA.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:06 PM
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In re: The Economy And Stuff: My two most conservative relatives are in support of the FB "Entitlements my ass!" status update meme.

Entitlement my A$$! I paid for my Social Security! Our benefits aren't some kind of charity or handout! Congressional benefits - free health care, outrageous retirement packages, 67 paid holidays, three weeks paid vacation, unlimited paid sick days - now THAT'S welfare. And Congress has the nerve to call my retirement an Entitlement? Re-post if you are sick of their crap, and ashamed of our "leaders.

Interesting.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:14 PM
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DOES OBAMA's LUST TO CUT "ENTITLEMENTS" KNOW NO BOUNDS? WILL NO ONE EMERGE FROM THE DESERT TO LEAD THE CHARGE TO KEEP US FROM ALL DYING IN A DITCH?.

CHIMPEACH THE CHIMPEROR!


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:16 PM
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I recently combated the meme of "Congressmembers have free health care and don't pay into Social Security and have great retirement benefits" on FB. This shit seems to have some shelf life.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:18 PM
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It would be really nice to see the police get convicted of a crime at least ONE time when the video tape evidence "disappears." Amazing how the crucial bit always seems to disappear or malfunctions. Ooops. Only ever seems to go one way though.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:21 PM
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164: And the circle is unbroken.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:26 PM
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163: How dare you call these "entitlements"! I deserve these things!


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:26 PM
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165, 168: Well, right, but heightening contradictions continue to heighten. I think a lot of these rural/exurban white working class people are a lot closer to open rebellion than the corporations would have you believe. That might not fit exactly with how I'd like to see an insurrection happen, but it would sure be something.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:34 PM
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162. Probably in the long run (in which I am thankfully dead). But at the moment there isn't the infrastructure.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:36 PM
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170: Sounds like a great stimulus program! All that infrastructure to be built, all those guard jobs to be filled . . .


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:38 PM
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You know what's really the best?


Posted by: Pauly Shore | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:40 PM
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Also, do you want to see a totally amazing eco-anarchist movie? Watch Rise of the Planet of the Apes. It was awesome.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:44 PM
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YOU GUYS!


Posted by: Pauly Shore | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:48 PM
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Apparently there was a shooting in Chapeltown but no riot. Although my journalist friend up there said there seemed to be large fire earlier in Harehills.

Fucking Cameron finally coming home, stupid cunt.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:49 PM
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I think a lot of these rural/exurban white working class people are a lot closer to open rebellion than the corporations would have you believe.

Rebellion behind what program? An unfocussed jacquerie at this point would be exactly what the corps are praying for.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:52 PM
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re: 160

Yeah. It's spreading. Tierce lives out East London way. Hopefully not too shitty where he is.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:54 PM
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Twitter claiming stuff happening in Ealing. Can hear sirens, but not close.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:55 PM
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Fucking Cameron finally coming home, stupid cunt.

Been upstaged by Clegg, who was on the scene, is why. This makes him (Cameron) look totally wank - can't come home in time, can't tough it out.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:55 PM
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177. I'm sure he'll check in if it gets too interesting.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:56 PM
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148: Libertarians were on the raw milk thing before this happened. I know I've seen stuff by bloggers at Reason Hit & Run about raw foods bullshit from the FDA before this.

It's funny reading both libertarian and liberal blogs. You get both of them wailing about how if the other side had integrity they'd be all over issue X, completely oblivious to the other side's writing and activism on the subject. Values of X include, but are not limited to: subsidies to Big Agriculture, Kelo vs New London, raw foods silliness, right to die laws, and drug decriminalization.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:58 PM
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Alex, too, I think, although not sure if he's that far East.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 1:58 PM
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176:If you burn it, they will come

The point of course is not to stop til the helicopters leave. Accelerate!

Been waiting on the cautious careful twelve-point program far too long


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 2:04 PM
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Can't read the thread just now, but I do think that it is a crying shame that we can't get raw milk *cheese* in this country.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 2:19 PM
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||

Yves Smith says the VIX says CRASH! Also Barry Rittholz.

Sell everything. Sell your youngest. Pack for overseas, and pack for the forests or mountains in case the planes stop flying.

Paraguay is nice. Not Europe.

Fine job, Obama. Yglesias thinks you have done great.

(Newberry is working up a series. See ya.)

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 2:24 PM
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I do think that it is a crying shame that we can't get raw milk *cheese* in this country.

Do you mean raw milk cheese less than 60 days old? Because if it's been aged longer than that, it's legal. They sell it at Whole Foods, in fact.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 2:42 PM
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Twitter full of reports of stuff kicking off down the road. Sirens. Nothing visible, though.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 2:43 PM
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I'm way behind the thread, but I hope I am seconding another report of experience that eggs are shitty. Hens only have the cloaca. It was my understanding when collecting eggs for possibly-not-legal trade that washing them did reduce their lifespan; in fact, if unwashed, they don't need refrigeration, if your house isn't steamy. (Hens will lay dozens, even scores of eggs before starting to brood; the earliest ones have to keep.)

Not a problem in practice. When cooking, put eggs in sink first, wash eggs and hands in hot water in simultaneous getting-ready step.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 3:06 PM
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181: Any remark I make criticizing "libertarianism" should be read as including an automatic disclaimer about the 0.05% of them who live up some part of their creed. Yes, I know Reason has the odd decent columnist and that Radley Balko exists, thanks.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 3:42 PM
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Re: 188

To conclude this thread's Frost trifecta, see "A Blue Ribbon at Amesbury." Excerpt:

"'Tis ritual with her to lay
The full six days, then rest a day;
At which rate barring broodiness
She well may score an egg-success."

"The gatherer can always tell
Her well-turned egg's brown sturdy shell
As safe a vehicle of seed
As is vouchsafed to feathered breed."

The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 3:45 PM
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I live in Hackney, 25 yards from Lower Clapton Road, 100 yards from the Pembury Estate. Got home about 10 from town centre, walked from the Pembury intersection -- bus on diversion so I jumped off there -- up to my square. Lots of people just standing around, lots of vans outside the police station, what looked like a car on fire further up Clarence Road (it may be the one on the cover of tomorrow's Guardian; it's out now, but there's still a strong burning smell in the air).

No helicopters at the moment, no sirens. Friends tell me Lower Clapton Road was on the news also but I think it was a lot further up.

(Just checked my friend D's twitter and he says at one point there were six or more cars burning the other side of the Pembury estate, but that's a 15 minute walk from mine.)

(Thinking of moving my car tomorrow, except I'm not really sure where to...) (Also thinking of staying with a friend, but again, not sure where...)


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 3:45 PM
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We need to work these sterilization issues out. After the collapse only those who eat eggs shell and all will get adequate calcium.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:05 PM
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Friend of mine really annoying me, saying stuff like "Cameron coming back will just give bbc24 an excuse to ramp up the panic a bit" and "without constant "rioting!!! Looting!!!!!" headlines it might not be spreading as much as it is". Jeez, she's the sort of person that if it were happening anywhere near her, she'd be creating a huge drama out of it. (E.g. every time the IRA are mentioned, she brings up the 3 months she lived in London.)


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:09 PM
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191 - go and stay with ttaM! Oh no, that won't be any safer ... Come to Reading!


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:09 PM
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191: If trouble comes near you, spray them with raw milk and washed eggs.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:18 PM
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Stay safe, Tierce. No point in taking a risk and hanging around near the epicentre.

Luckily for me, the Camden twats seem to have headed toward Chalk Farm rather than Kentish Town. I'm away from the shops so even if they do eventually descend on my part of town it should be OK.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:20 PM
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erm yeah, they just torched a car in my square -- i moved mine about half an hour ago, to a quieter more residential street

it isn't so quiet now either


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:22 PM
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Shit tierce. Look after yourself babe. And seriously, if you want to get right out of town, there's a bed here. Hoping all is well in nattarGcM-land.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:37 PM
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Rioting in ealing was about 500 metres away. But no sign here. We are further up the hill and is quiet. Cars on fire and home's broken into nearer the Broadway, though.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:40 PM
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Still way behind the thread, but hoping that London gets an omelette without cracking any serious eggs.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:44 PM
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Quiet again.


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:47 PM
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That's good. Take care.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:48 PM
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Right, cannot stay awake any longer. Hope all Londoners have a peaceful night from now on.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 4:56 PM
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Hope you all are safe.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:05 PM
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LB@71: Nonetheless, the downgrade is an indication that really bad things are happening generally

Yes, If I may analogize freely, someone has just warned the owners of a house on the hill that it might flood, what would do if you owned stocks lived in the valley?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:18 PM
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Hope you all are safe.

I'm fine, yeah.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:23 PM
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Boy, I'll feel like an asshole if anything actually happens to any UK commenters.

So anyhow, I have a story: my coworker comes into work today with his hand in a cast. Turns out he got doored. He's sprawled in the street (doesn't know his hand's broken yet) and the dude who did it says "it's not my fault! There wasn't a bike lane!", locks his car, and goes about his business.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:27 PM
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Loads of photos of cars on fire appearing on twitter from around here but all a good 5 min walk away. Photos look like mayhem, though. Houses broken into, too. Expect it's getting to wee rioters bed time.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:31 PM
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"it's not my fault! There wasn't a bike lane!"

How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
...
And especially people
Who care about strangers
Who care about evil
And social injustice.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:34 PM
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205: Freak out. And go to bed early.

209: I thought you hated hippies, Flippanter.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:37 PM
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Easy to be hard ... laydeez


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:39 PM
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208: Too many years of socialism means they can't walk that far?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:42 PM
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210: Memories of childhood trauma. Very vivid. Someone hold me. And sing "Master of Puppets."


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:43 PM
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207: Doesn't the bike at least damage the door a bit?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:44 PM
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214: if only.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:45 PM
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I suppose you do try to slow down as much as possible.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:54 PM
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In New York, the advice is to have lots of water, candles, antibiotics, and duct tape on hand. Alternatively, Asilon's house sounds very comfortable.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:54 PM
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213: "Master of Puppets" is not familiar to me; I do have an extraordinary fondness for Hair. Don't ruin it for me, okay? It's been a rather shitty day, everywhere.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:57 PM
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Based on the experience of 1992, good strategies are (a) find a Korean militia to protect you, or (b) have some local magnate order in private security guard employees to keep the peace or (c) just sit out on the front stoop with a shotgun. Probably none apply in your case. Good luck.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 5:59 PM
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217: The duct tape can be used to immobilize a broken hand, but I don't see how the rest would help if you got doored.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:01 PM
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Spoke too soon about the wee rioters bedtime. I can hear excited teenage voices outside.*

* less dramatic than it sounds. I'm several floors up, and I expect they are in the communal garden/park opposite. Still, not taking any chances.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:07 PM
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In New York, the advice is to have lots of water, candles, antibiotics, and duct tape on hand.

"Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff."


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:11 PM
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Richard Seymour on the riots

Only a month ago, the Wall Street Journal wrote of how the global rich fear the coming violence of the poor:

A new survey from Insite Security and IBOPE Zogby International of those with liquid assets of $1 million or more found that 94% of respondents are concerned about the global unrest around the world today. ... the numbers are backed up by other trends seen throughout the world of wealth today: the rich keeping a lower profile, hiring $230,000 guard dogs, and arming their yachts, planes and cars with military-style security features.

So, even if politicians are in denial, the rich aren't. You may well say, "bollocks, they're not taking on the ruling class, they're just destroying their own nest, hurting working class people and small businesses". I can hear this, just as I can hear the sanctimony in its enunciation. The truth is that riots almost always hurt poor, working class people. There's no riot that embodies a pure struggle for justice, that is not also partly a self-inflicted wound. There is no riot without looting, without anti-social behaviour, without a mixture of bad motives and bad politics. That still doesn't mean that the riot doesn't have a certain political focus; that it doesn't have consequences for the ability of the ruling class to keep control; that the contest with the police is somehow taking place outside of its usual context of suspicion borne of institutional racism and brutality.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:33 PM
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Yikes, UK crew, hang tight. Hope it gets calmer.

Our mayor has just been talking tough in response to a genuinely disturbing wave of youth violence.

Not sure curfews and harsh words are going to deal with the problem, however. My copy of the Kerner Commission report is around here somewhere, but haven't pulled it out to look at how not-changed the world is: Young people out of work, with little prospect of finding any, restless and scared.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:33 PM
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Cash is actually rather handy to have around in the event of system disruption. Unfortunately, any cash I have around is comes in handy well before system disruption.

Also: decent shoes, ID, batteries/charger.

It is unlikely to get to that point in London, I hope?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:33 PM
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|?

S&P's real victim: cash-strapped cities? ...Suzy Khimm, newly at Ezra's place

S&P's is poised to downgrade thousands of municipal bonds that are directly tied to the federal government, with an announcement expected later this week. In July, Moody's recommended downgrading 7,000 muni bonds if the U.S. credit rating went down. While this secondary wave of downgrades is unlikely to shock the municipal bond market, it could reveal the vulnerable finances of some of the country's more fiscally troubled towns and cities, ultimately putting them on shakier footing by making borrowing more expensive.

I told you Friday this was coming.

As long as y'all are still laughing with Krugman.

Guns of Brixton coming to your town soon.

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:46 PM
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226: Fortunately, my city is already stupid broke.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 6:48 PM
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227: YOUNG MAN, THERE'S A LOT OF BROKE IN A CITY.


Posted by: OPINIONATED ADAM SMITH | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 7:57 PM
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Reading the Guardian's live blog (live blogging MGIs!) is depressing.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 08- 8-11 8:33 PM
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219: The tactics already suggested elsewhere seem appropriate: "running away and cowering in front of a bouncer" would work well, and "kicking small animals" or "punching a defenseless old woman on the shoulder" might help you blend in.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 12:09 AM
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Good morning London, is everybody OK?

Jesus, MacManus is a sociopathic twat. OTOH, we could usefully give him the people who produced the book in the other thread to play with.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 12:11 AM
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Bit of minor property damage but nothing serious. Disturbing, though, to see the street I used to live in on the news covered in rioters and public order vans.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 1:45 AM
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231.2: It's a lot easier if you read his comments in the voice of Private Fraser. Yes, indeed, bob, we are all doomed. Dooooooomed.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 1:47 AM
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Or, alternatively, Rick from The Young Ones.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 1:47 AM
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Bit of minor property damage but nothing serious. Disturbing, though, to see the street I used to live in on the news covered in rioters and public order vans.

Likewise. No visible damage in my current locale, though I didn't wander down toward Camden.



Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 1:56 AM
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Bit of minor property damage but nothing serious. Disturbing, though, to see the street I used to live in on the news covered in rioters and public order vans.

Likewise. No visible damage in my current locale, though I didn't wander down toward Camden.



Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:00 AM
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No visible damage in my street, I don't think, but down towards Haven Green it's fucked. Community cleanup supposed to be happening this morning.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:20 AM
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Glad everybody seems to be OK. Hope Tierce's car has survived.

Our company has issued a "travel alert"

Extensive travel disruption should be expected across the Greater London area following the third consecutive night of looting and rioting across the city.

The worst affected areas are Croydon and Clapham as well as Camden, Ealing, Peckham, Hackney, Lewisham Ilford, Brixton, Woolwich, Colliers Wood, Catford and East Dulwich.

Dozens of roads have been closed across the city and bus and rail services are expected to be severely disrupted to the aforementioned parts of the city.

A few places on that list I hadn't seen before...

Mrs y is off to the smoke tomorrow. It's OK between Pancs and Victoria AFAICS so far, isn't it?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:35 AM
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Ealing was pretty bad last night. 'Home invasions', in the US parlance, as well as just shops and cars being trashed. I expect there'll be questions asked of the police.

re: 238.last

I imagine that's too central to have been affected.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:38 AM
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I'm OK, though I'm planning to stay with a friend tonight -- don't think my home is under threat but the night is noisy and burning cars isn't a smell to sleep easy to, esp. when you can actually see the light of the flames playing on the wall opposite your window.


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:58 AM
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Sounds wise, tierce. Better safe than sorry. Sounds like you were uncomfortably close to things.

My wife was mocking me this morning for having taken precautions before I went to bed last night [double locking the door, making sure I had shoes and 'stuff' handy, other minor stuff]. But fuck it.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 3:07 AM
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I may have mentioned this before, but back when I was living in Acton and working close to 24 hour shifts on a Thursday, I once came back home on a Friday morning to have my flatmate point out the burning car I'd just walked past without even noticing.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 3:10 AM
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Jesus, MacManus is a sociopathic twat.

I am not a Scot, for pity's sake.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 3:13 AM
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243:
Lots of Irish names are spelled with "Mac". Still baffled why Dickens etc. used to spell them all "M'Surname" as it only works for names beginning with C or K.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 3:25 AM
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Ian Welsh:

More London Burning

and

Screw Optimism and Screw Sanity

Ordinary people, what we call "sane" in our society, are really shitty analysts. Really, really shitty analysts. Their bias to the upside is tiresome, predictable and makes them wrong, over and over and over again. They don't know what real threats are, they constantly are confused about what is really dangerous.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 3:30 AM
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I'm poopin'.


Posted by: Pauly Shore | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 3:41 AM
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I'M POOPIN'!


Posted by: Pauly Shore | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 3:50 AM
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re: 242

Yeah, I used to live in a part of Glasgow where, when I went running along the canal, I'd pass burning cars fairly often. It was a popular dumping point for kids joyriding from Possil. One street I lived in in Oxford had that happen a couple of times, too. Which was a bit unexpected as, while it was on the edge of what Oxford people told me with a straight face was a 'rough area', it looked pretty nice to me.

re: 244

See also the famous "M'Naghten".


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:01 AM
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False alarm. Never mind.


Posted by: Pauly Shore | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:01 AM
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Also re: 244, the 'c' in my name is silent, fwiw.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:03 AM
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OT: Today I am wearing a tie, Internet degenerates. If you happen to storm the barricades, please don't shoot before inquiring about Mutombo or something.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:14 AM
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Tell you what: as someone kept awake half the night just by noises right outside my window -- helicopters, explosions, shouting -- and by the smell of burning cars 150 yards away, I am way too tired and shaken even to do my normal job (routine proofing), let alone actually work out coolly where I stand and what I think any more. And I imagine lots of others are way more shaken and way more exhausted, and have -- a lot more urgently -- to make much bigger decisions (all I'm doing is thinking about staying with a friend for a couple of nights). So people high and low, left right and centre, but above all secure and far away, are now going to be talking smug self-confirming bollocks for days. Hurrah! It's going to be such fun to read!

(The M' -- in eg Dickens and Kipling -- is a typographical convention used by some printers or publishing house rather than an eliding apostrophe proper, I suspect: would much rather talk diacritical marks than anything else, except catch up on sleep and detoxify adrenalin-wise...)

(I found myself thinking of the three farmsteads in the middle of the Battle of Waterloo last night: La Haye Saint and the other two. As a kid I had a little plastic model of one of them. You never read what happened to the farmers and their families. They just happened to live on the wrong hill when the armies met.)


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:16 AM
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234: you mean there are people who don't do that?

252: the coverage of the riots on the bbc and other mainstream news channels has been so onesided, (borderline) racist and blimpish that it's been hard not to go too far the other way. Lenny has the best coverage I've found so far for somebody broadly "sympathetic" to the rioters.

A friend of mine living near/in one of the affected areas said he was "sympathetic, but not emphatic" towards the rioters, which sort of sums up my feelings. It's possible to understand why people riot and still think they're numpties, to have some understanding and sympathy as to why they're rioting without approving of the collatoral damage.

One positive result from the riots has been the spontaneous cleanup organised through Twitter, Facebook etc. last night and this morning.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:33 AM
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Stay with the friend, if it makes sense at all -- you sound like you need a good night's sleep and people to eat with.

Now I'm asking for people to talk smug self-confirming bollocks, but do the riots seem to be about anything particular beyond the initial police brutality? I don't understand why (and of course there may be no good explanation) they're self-sustaining for this long.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:35 AM
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My (obviously EXTREMELY anecdatal) perspective, from just one night in just one square, clashes quite a lot with the info -- not to mention the garbage -- flooding in from elsewhere. I felt and saw no threat at all from rioters towards local passersby (as distinct from journalists, bus drivers etc, though this I only read about): cars (burning or otherwise) were being used primarily as material for barriers; shops were very selectively targeted; the primary driving object seemed to be battling with the police, humiliating them, outmanoeuvring them, defending territory won against them.


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:46 AM
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One positive result from the riots has been the spontaneous cleanup organised through Twitter, Facebook etc. last night and this morning.

Yes, that is rather interesting. Bit of a Daniel Suarez moment.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:54 AM
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243: not all sociopathic twats are Scots.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 4:55 AM
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257: That would do well on a T shirt.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:03 AM
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re: 253

I can think that most of the rioters are cunts, while still thinking that the sorts of policies that are likely to materially improve their well-being, and make for a much more equitable society are the right ones. And also think the Met are often a bunch of fucks, too.

re: 255

That seems quite different from Ealing, where ordinary drivers were attacked in their cars, and private homes broken into and looted. It seemed quite unrelated to any confrontation with the police who, it seems, were concerned only with protecting the main stretch of the Broadway from the station to the town hall, and made a decision to just let the rest go to fuck. Criminal damage and looting was the order of the day, rather than any kind of stand-off with cops.

I don't understand why (and of course there may be no good explanation) they're self-sustaining for this long.

Because they've discovered they can? It's nice to be powerful.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:12 AM
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259.2: sounds like displacement; the intent was to loot the high street, but it was full of police, so they decided to cause some damage elsewhere.

Baton rounds tonight, the Guardian says.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:20 AM
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re: 260

Yes, there was a strategy of displacement [going by twitter feeds, etc last night]. But the areas surrounding central Ealing were trashed, with no police presence. If police numbers are low -- and the youtube vidoes circulating suggest that, at at least one point in the evening, there weren't many -- not sure what other strategies they can adopt, but pretty harsh for those people whose houses got fucked over.

I expect it's only a matter of time before there are deaths [if it kicks off again tonight].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:25 AM
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One positive result from the riots has been the spontaneous cleanup organised through Twitter, Facebook etc. last night and this morning.

This happened in Vancouver as well, during and after the relatively small-scale hockey riot.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:30 AM
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One death already, it seems. A man was shot in Croydon.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:41 AM
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Yeah, I saw that on the news. But I expect that could rapidly escalate. Whether via fires, or police action, or people defending their houses or shops, e.g. the stories circulating last night about Stoke Newington.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:54 AM
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FWIW, quite a lot of what's being said on Seymour's blog and by commenters there makes me want to smack some fuck in the face.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:58 AM
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Fucking smug cunts.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:59 AM
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Yeah, I'm kind of amazed, and very relieved, that nobody's died in the fires so far. Many of these shops have residential units above them.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:01 AM
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1245: BBC Monitoring Russian TV channel Rossiya 24 says parts of London resembled a "battlefield". Citing Twitter, the Rossiya 24 correspondent claims animals had been released from London Zoo and lions and tigers could now be heard roaring on the streets. This is wearily contradicted by the Zoo's press officer. "It's been very quiet," she tells us.

In other news: ice age coming, sun zooming in


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:07 AM
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254: I don't understand why (and of course there may be no good explanation) they're self-sustaining for this long.

What ttam said in 259, but I expect the heavy handed police presence after the first night of riots helped inflame passions further as well. Also, rioting is fun, smashing shops up is fun and getting free tellys is a bonus.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:08 AM
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Not that I'm not sympathetic to setting things in context, but some of the stuff on Seymour's blog is just cuntish sneering at people's (real) fears.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:17 AM
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Parliament recalled. Who the hell do they think that's going to impress?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:21 AM
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268: Lions, no, but we cannot rule out the presence of the Man-Eating Badgers of Basra.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6295138.stm


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:21 AM
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265: Lenny does always have a bit of that SWP trained, what does this means in terms of historical dialectical materialism and WWKMD going on in his posts, which can indeed be grating especially if you're caught up in whatever he's pontificating about...


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:34 AM
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268: To stop the riots from spreading, the police should start a fake twitter storm telling everyone that tonight's action is to free the lions, tigers, and bears.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:35 AM
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This sounds fucked up and awful. I guess I am supposed to hate them because they eat in fancy restaurants? But Jesus.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:38 AM
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Based on the experience of 1992, good strategies are (a) find a Korean militia to protect you, or (b) have some local magnate order in private security guard employees to keep the peace or (c) just sit out on the front stoop with a shotgun. Probably none apply in your case. Good luck.

This is pretty much what's been happening in Dalston; the Turks and the Kurds have been out in force protecting their shops with the aid of large, shaven-headed cousins with baseball bats. Residents very grateful.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:41 AM
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re: 273

Also the pot-calling-the-kettle-black stuff about 'middle-class ventriloquism'.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:50 AM
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The other side of using social networks and the internet to organize rioting.

I really hope there is a thorough effort to go after the looters and vandals. Fuck them all.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:52 AM
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I've read in a few places about folks with baseball bats. Makes sense. Except there is something that puzzles me. Why would people have baseball bats to hand in the UK? There isn't much call to play the game, is there? Are they simply sold as weapons?


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:53 AM
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http://www.lost-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/milk_cheese-evandorkin.jpg


Posted by: Brian | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:54 AM
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Are they simply sold as weapons?

Basically, yeah, I think. Although people do play rounders/softball.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:55 AM
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Cricket bats are too short?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:55 AM
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Cricket bats are quite handy weapons, too, I think.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:56 AM
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Then why not use cricket bats? Would seem to be more available and less likely to make people suspicious.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:57 AM
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To my untrained eye, baseball bats look more aerodynamic and harder to break.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 6:59 AM
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re: 284

Not sure. I think culturally baseball bats are seen as more bad-ass and 'weapon-like'. I'd quite fancy a weighted cane myself, but they aren't legal.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:00 AM
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286: The ones with a nice big silver knob on the end are forbidden?


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:02 AM
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282 may have a point: also the weight distribution is different.

I'd quite fancy a weighted cane myself

AKA a "Penang-lawyer", thank you Sherlock Holmes.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:02 AM
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Over here the Zulu knobkerrie is only sold as a weapon.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:03 AM
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I've sometimes wondered if these umbrellas are all that they are advertised to be. I'm curious, but not $200 curious.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:05 AM
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I personally thought James Meek's article on the LRB blog rather neatly articulated the unease I feel about my life in London, as a firmly middle-class white male professional living in a socially-mixed area.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2011/08/09/james-meek/in-broadway-market/


Posted by: Richard J | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:06 AM
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re: 288

Yeah. I have actually done a little bit of 'la canne' and may end up doing more, although a tiny bit so far.

re: 287

That's fine, but only if the shaft is just wood. If there's any weighting of the body of the cane then they are classed as weapons. And ordinary wooden cane with a metal ferrule and knob would be fine.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:13 AM
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That's fine, but only if the shaft is just wood.

What about aluminum? The cheapest canes here, the kind they send you home from the hospital with should you need a cane, are light aluminum (aluminium?) tubes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:18 AM
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Fine, too, I'd guess. A lot of these things in the UK aren't explicitly illegal, but any modification of things to make them weaponised pretty much automatically renders them illegal.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:21 AM
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286: The ones with a nice big silver knob on the end are forbidden?

Unless carried for medical purposes, all canes have a big knob on the end.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:22 AM
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294: I didn't modify it, but I keep my supply of lead fishing weights inside.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:24 AM
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I think baseball bats, especially metal ones, are going to be much easier to wield as a weapon than cricket bats. I mean they're designed to be swung in more or less the same way as you would smash in a window. Whereas there's only so much you can vandalise with a cover drive or a leg sweep.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:26 AM
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254

Now I'm asking for people to talk smug self-confirming bollocks, but do the riots seem to be about anything particular ...

Some people don't need much of an excuse to riot .

Perhaps this is a good time to mention that I find the constant references (in comments to this blog) to burning stuff down off-putting.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:26 AM
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298.last: What about the bad puns? That's what most people seem to have a problem with.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:28 AM
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I tried to suggest an alternative, but it never caught on.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:29 AM
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re: 295

Heheh. That is, generally, true.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:29 AM
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So, maybe this is a stupid question, but basically, if the regular cops can't handle this, the government's next option is the British Army, right? There's no analogue of the National Guard that would step in, and no pesky rules like we have here about the regular army not getting involved in civilian policing (Operation Garden Plot aside), right? Would Parliament need to authorize that directly, and that's why they're being recalled?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:35 AM
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300: We will rearrange your shit in ways that are not conductive to either Taylor-style industrial efficiency or feng shui style ass-hattery.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:37 AM
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I remember some translation of a government warning to German parents from back in the early '90s, on the theme of "How To Tell If Your Son Is A Neo-Nazi", and one of the questions was "Does he own a baseball bat, but no glove or baseball?"


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:38 AM
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We will put shit on Craigslist and use really unflattering pictures of the shit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:40 AM
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Designated hitter! Report him to the authorities.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:40 AM
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Also, FWIW, the London branch of the IWW has been doing their best to share news and analysis of the riots, and, while refraining from condemning the rioters, is supportive of the riot clean-up efforts.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:45 AM
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To lighten the mood with some domestic humor, let me mention that I learned from bitter experience that giving a novelty wooden (but somewhat heavy) baseball bat to my 3 year old was really not the best plan. Weaponized preschoolers are a problem.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:46 AM
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304: "Does he have a Charlie Chaplin moustache and give uncomprehending looks when you mention 'the little tramp'?"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:47 AM
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302. Yes they could use the army and I don't think they need parliament for that. The army has been used to scab on firefighters' strikes in the past with no parliamentary action. But the police haven't really got stuck in yet - still not used water cannon or baton rounds.

If they declare a state of emergency parliament needs to support that within a given time, a few days. They won't want to do it, though.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:48 AM
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302: essentially yes. There is an analogue of the National Guard - the Territorial Army - but it doesn't have any crowd control training AFAIK, it's really only there to backfill the regular army.

Parliament wouldn't as far as I know have to vote to authorise it. If the PM wants it to happen, it'll happen. There wasn't a vote on putting the Army in to support the RUC in Northern Ireland.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:48 AM
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Halford's home is littered with overturned, burning Hot Wheels.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:49 AM
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Yeah, what Chris said. It seems, from the news, that they are ramping up police numbers and will possibly go for somewhat more aggressive policing, but I expect they'll be hoping it'll peter out.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:50 AM
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"Baton rounds" just sounds like nightsticks fired from a gun to me. Rubber bullets, that makes sense.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:51 AM
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giving a novelty wooden (but somewhat heavy) baseball bat to my 3 year old was really not the best plan

Indeed, it's seldom a winning strategy.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:54 AM
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314 except they're plastic these days. And they're threatening to start with them tonight.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:54 AM
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"Baton rounds" just sounds like nightsticks fired from a gun to me.

And then I started thinking of LB & Tweety's VR urban hunting game.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:54 AM
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Okay, that makes sense. Would it be a huge negative publicity thing then if the army was called in? Here, it seems like, since Vietnam/Kent State, most governors have been pretty loath to call out the guard except for really big stuff (they did for the RNC here in 2008, for instance) and natural disasters. Rudy Perpich's political career took a huge hit when he put the guard on the streets of Austin during the Hormel P-9 strike in the 80s. But of course, that was because his base of support was unions on the Range, whereas, as with Pawlenty calling out the guard in 08, I imagine Cameron would get nothing but praise from his constituencies for bringing in the army.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 7:56 AM
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Would it be a huge negative publicity thing then if the army was called in?

It would be an admission that the civil power can't control matters itself. Calling in the army is what happens in Northern Ireland; troops in DPM (armed or unarmed) on the streets of London would be a huge sign that the Met and by extension the government has lost its grip. They turn out for natural disasters, and for the firemen's strikes, and they do the occasional hostage rescue and that kind of thing, but that's a bit different. Actually patrolling to enforce law and order? Ouch.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:04 AM
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It would be an admission that the civil power can't control matters itself.

Going for Batman too early causes similar issues. If the Joker shows up, go ahead and light the signal. But, you'd better send the regular police for a mugger or whatever.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:10 AM
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From the BBC:

Some 16,000 police officers will be on London's streets later in a bid to prevent a fourth night of rioting.

The government's emergency committee, Cobra, met in the wake of Monday's violence, which spread across London and prompted unrest in other cities.

See, right here, I think if you're going to call in an international terrorist organization to help deal with some riots, you're already starting off on the wrong foot. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Destro and Cobra Commander actually had a hand in fomenting these disturbances!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:10 AM
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Forgot about blockquote not liking hard returns there.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:11 AM
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The person in charge on the night is the Gold Commander. Just for more comic book name action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_-_silver_-_bronze_command_structure


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:12 AM
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"Triple the patrols! I want authorization to deputize ten thousand civilians." - Commissioner Dolan


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:19 AM
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And the person in charge of the whole Met, the only one left standing after all off her corrupt/NI connected superiors resigned is Cressida Dick, her who gave the order to kill Jean Charles de Menezes.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:20 AM
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re: 325

Er, not quite. She's about 3 people down from the top job. Although still very senior.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:27 AM
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I refuse to credit the existence of a person named "Cressida Dick."


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:41 AM
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328

Am staying in Kew tonight. If that goes up frankly nowhere is safe this side of Anglesey.


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:46 AM
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327. I bet she got thrown off Google+ for being a pseud. But, sadly, she exists.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:47 AM
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327: now you know how we feel about Tom DeLay, Lauch Faircloth, Arlen Specter, Newt Gingrich and all those other people whom you insist are actually real.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:54 AM
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And, yes, currently i/c the Met is Tim Godwin. Dick is in charge of the Special Operations branch.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:57 AM
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Tom DeLay, Lauch Faircloth, Arlen Specter, Newt Gingrich

Dick Armey.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 8:57 AM
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Dick Armey and Cressida Dick have a son together


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:01 AM
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332: well, quite. John Boehner. And I remember seeing election literature for Rich Pratt when I was in the US a few years ago.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:05 AM
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re: 328

I thought the same re: Ealing.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:09 AM
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And, of course, former Congressman and ambassador to Denmark Dick Swett, whose seven children are named, I shit you not: Chelsea, Sebastian, Keaton, Chanteclaire, Kismet, Atticus, and Sunday.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:10 AM
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When they grow up they're going to draw lots for who murders their parents while the rest provide a cast iron alibi.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:13 AM
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I have a friend who lives in Crouch End, which I had previously assumed that Stephen King made up for one of his horror short stories.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:13 AM
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In Heaven, all of the aerobics instructors are named Chelsea Swett.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:14 AM
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337: I suspect Chanteclaire draws the short stick more often than not.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:15 AM
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I went to school with a guy whose family name was Myballsarhuge.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:15 AM
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Couch End is all right, but Pratts Bottom is richer.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:16 AM
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Cressida Dick? Yes, but Troilus arsehole.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:20 AM
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341: did NOT!


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:20 AM
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286 et seq - see also "Baseball in Irish History"
http://www.digitalfilmarchive.net/dfa/browseDisplay.asp?id=353


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:22 AM
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344: It was pronounced "jon-suhn."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:22 AM
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One hit!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:22 AM
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Enfield fires destroy stock of major independent record labels


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:32 AM
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345. A small bat there. More of a baton. Or, a nightstick.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:34 AM
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"A message to the youth of Hackney":
http://hackneyunites.blogspot.com/

Very well put.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 9:34 AM
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As Riots Continue, Sales of Bats Spike on Amazon.UK


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:20 AM
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351: Wow. That's people who are confident enough that rioting will continue for at least a couple of days to mail order rioting equipment.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:22 AM
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353

Confident that the riots will continue, but not get so bad that the mail stops.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:25 AM
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354

Or counter riot equipment.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:26 AM
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re: 352

Next day delivery. Anything ordered today would be there tomorrow. I don't think anyone really expects it to stop for a day or two, at least.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:26 AM
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You don't need a lot of purchases to make a trend in Amazon. Not a lot of any given product gets sold on the average day.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:30 AM
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Maybe they're just ordering replacement parts.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:32 AM
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Probably as much rioting dissuasion equipment as rioting equipment, I'd imagine.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:37 AM
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359

I first read that as spiked bats, which I'm fairly certain are not legitimate sporting equipment.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:38 AM
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Spike the vampire bat?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:39 AM
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359: How else do you get the holes in the wiffle ball?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:43 AM
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While the spike in baseball bat sales is dispiriting, what leapt out at me more was the fact that Amazon is selling retractable batons. WTF?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 10:47 AM
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No matter what weapon you decide to go with, accessories can make a big difference.

Police urge holster use after man shoots his own penis


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:12 AM
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The holster is more useful before you shoot your penis.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:19 AM
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"Holster" s/b/ "jockstrap"


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:19 AM
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It's like a vest for your jimmy in the city of sex.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:26 AM
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Holster? I don't even need one anymore!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:28 AM
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Why are baseball bats superior to cricket bats for personal defense? Serious question.


Posted by: eliot | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:29 AM
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confident enough that rioting will continue for at least a couple of days to mail order rioting equipment

This might be meaningless or just wrong, but I read that sporting goods stores are being looted disproportionately.


Posted by: eliot | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:31 AM
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Had this discussion on another forum. The consensus is that the weight distribution is better for vandalism/thuggery. Cricket bats aren't designed to be swung at shoulder height.

This might be meaningless or just wrong, but I read that sporting goods stores are being looted disproportionately.

Probably more for the trainers. Sporting goods stores here don't carry much in the way of vandalism friendly equipment.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:38 AM
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I am assuming that the bats being bought on Amazon are for defense, not for rioting. I don't think of rioters as being the sort of people to use one-click shopping. (Plus all the BBC stories about people guarding their stores with baseball bats).

The main advantage of a cricket bat is that it's designed for a wooden ball rather than a rubber ball, and is thus probably harder.


Posted by: eliot | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:42 AM
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Yeah, people are surely ordering them for protection. Not for rioting. I did a quick mental inventory last night of things I might have in the house for twatting people with. I didn't come up with much.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:45 AM
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Baseballs aren't rubber, they're made of cork with wool wrapped around and then cowhide stitched around that.

Upon inspection, that's basically what cricket balls are made of too, despite being harder.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:46 AM
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Did you just cut my cricket ball in half?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:47 AM
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375

ttaM's twatting list:
1. Fists
2. French slippers
3. ?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:49 AM
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376

Omelet pan?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:58 AM
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377

Huh, I was pretty sure cricket balls were wood (or is cork a kind of wood?). But they are both smaller and heavier than baseballs.


Posted by: eliot | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:59 AM
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Certainly in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is quite often...useful.


Posted by: Ian Faith | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 12:10 PM
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Cricket balls are hard enough that people have been killed playing cricket.

Heh at 375/376. I think I settled on some tools or dumbells. Not that it'd have been at all likely, anyway. We live in a block of flats, not a house with a door opening onto the street, and there was no trouble in our street barring a bit of shouting, anyway.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 12:12 PM
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373: I presume you have a decent selection of kitchen knives, at least.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:09 PM
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Oh yes. Chinese cleavers and all sorts.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:12 PM
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But that seems a bit more drastic than just twatting someone with a lump of wood.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:13 PM
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382: And if you have carpeting, a bit too much cleaning might be involved.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:15 PM
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Cricket balls are hard enough that people have been killed playing cricket.

According to The Prisoner, my principal source (after the Flashman novels) for information about the United Kingdom, some of them are full of explosives.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:23 PM
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But that seems a bit more drastic than just twatting someone with a lump of wood.
Well, yes, but the point isn't to actually use them.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:27 PM
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Wop.


Posted by: Several Thousand People | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:31 PM
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387

I should have known, reading the thread, that someone would have already made the Troilus joke before starting to write my own.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:45 PM
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However, I can report that, while people were laughing about someone named "Manlove" running for elected office a few years ago, it turns out that Congress has already had a Manlove.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 2:52 PM
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Riots caused by society or lazy, thieving pricks, say experts.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 3:06 PM
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389: Wow. We really take the Onion's level of quality for granted.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 3:43 PM
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I should have known, reading the thread, that someone would have already made the Troilus joke before starting to write my own.

If it's any consolation, my pleasure at making the joke was greatly diminished by the the fact that I prefer the Chaucerian spelling "Troilus and Criseyde" to Shakespeare's "Troilus and Cressida".


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 5:20 PM
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Looking idly around the kitchen for anti-rioters equipment, as you do, I noticed not just the big fuckoff knives, but also the knife sharpener, which is a rod of hard steel/ceramic material that looks though enough to break bones if used properly though doesn't look nearly as menacing as a baseball bat. Less reach too.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:43 PM
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Match play ccricket balls are made of tightly rolled string arond a cork core in a sewn leather case with a raised seam. But you can get cheaper practice balls called "composition balls" which are made of cork and rubber, which may be what you're thinking of.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-11 11:53 PM
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392: I am thinking ice-axe. Probably not the crampons; I don't want to mess up the floor. (I suppose I could wear them on my forearms, Batman-style. But that might be silly.)


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-10-11 3:14 AM
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The Prisoner, my principal source (after the Flashman novels) for information about the United Kingdom

I wish I lived in Flippanter's version of the UK.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-10-11 3:15 AM
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