Re: Say "this is bullshit" if you think this is bullshit

1

As best I can follow, I agree. What's up with the capital R?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
2

It was a typo that I decided to retain.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:17 AM
horizontal rule
3

What's with the 1 between "course" and the end parenthesis?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:23 AM
horizontal rule
4

That wasn't a typo because I did it deliberately!@!!11!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:24 AM
horizontal rule
5

My editor self cringes at the question mark before the colon. The other item I would flag had this been sent to my desk for QC:

"a predetermined list. (For instance: intersections in a city.) Otherwise"

At a minimum, I would edit it to:

"a predetermined list (for instance: intersections in a city). Otherwise"

I would also recommend replacing "for instance:" with "e.g.,". You're welcome.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:27 AM
horizontal rule
6

I think it's a cell-phone issue -- entering numbers on the keypad while talking on the phone is a hassle in a way that it wasn't in the dark ages of curly cords and handsets.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:27 AM
horizontal rule
7

In theory, I can see places where it would work. For instance, cinema tickets. Odeon (the big chain in the UK) has a national booking line, so it's in principle much easier for them to ask you to speak the name of the cinema than for them to go through the whole list. And even with films at an individual cinema, it would often take a long time to go through the whole list. In practice, of course, the voice recognition is terrible, so it takes forever anyway, or you get so pissed off you go online. Which may be the point.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:27 AM
horizontal rule
8

I think it's a cell-phone issue -- entering numbers on the keypad while talking on the phone is a hassle in a way that it wasn't in the dark ages of curly cords and handsets.

Yeah, it's less easy, but it doesn't bother me; besides, we had that whole period of cordless phones that had the keys on the handset rather than on the ... whatever the other part of the phone is called.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:29 AM
horizontal rule
9

In similar typo news, I just wrote 'exegesis' in a letter to a judge, wrote another sentence, looked back at it and thought "I meant exigencies, didn't I?" That would have puzzled her if I hadn't fixed it, I'll bet.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:35 AM
horizontal rule
10

I don't see how that typo is similar.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:37 AM
horizontal rule
11

It's "in similar (typo news)", not "in (similar typo) news".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:38 AM
horizontal rule
12

The good news is that this system is so bad that companies have to build in an easy way to escape the phone tree. I've found that repeatedly mashing 0 will often get you transferred to a human.


Posted by: Suomen Radioamatööriliitto | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:43 AM
horizontal rule
13

Well maybe LB should have made that clear. You can understand why I was so confused. The typos actually seem quite dissimilar, as far as typos go.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:45 AM
horizontal rule
14

12: Selecting dos para español also often lets you escape to humans, but I don't think we're supposed to tell the anglophones about that one.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:49 AM
horizontal rule
15

It would be of limited utility for the likes of me anyway.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 10:49 AM
horizontal rule
16

15: "Pulsus tres latinae."
(Translation courtesy of Google.)

There's a fair chance I dreamed this but I think I read an article at some point about voice recognition programs being fine-tuned to recognize intonations of anger and pass you off to a human being before you become a seething mass of homicidal rage.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 11:08 AM
horizontal rule
17

16.last: "Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 11:13 AM
horizontal rule
18

Someone, I think Tweety, has told me that multiple times as well. (So if I had to wager a guess, I'd think the article was in the NYer. Which means at least several other people here must have read it. oudemia, what issue was it, off the top of your head?) I'm not sure I've ever encountered a program that could recognize such a thing, but I may be underestimating just how angry one's voice can get.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 11:19 AM
horizontal rule
19

I too have heard such things, and also heard that they recognize bad words, yet my dispassionate recitals of "fuck fuck shit fuck you assholes fuck fuck" rarely result in me being transferred to a human. (Rarely, but not never!)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
20

For a good while, the angrier I get, the more saccharine my intonation gets, and the more formal and polite I get.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
21

The one time I've raised my voice with one of those systems (which had me recite a fucking phone number) it did transfer me, but that may have resulted from an excess of failures.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 11:37 AM
horizontal rule
22

16/18/19

Also sometimes effective (when speaking with hapless frontline humans): "I'm an 'irate', can you please escalate this call to a Level Two or Three?"

Hearing unexpected facility with call center lingo can startle them into compliance.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 11:38 AM
horizontal rule
23

It's also 'interesting' if you have an accent. As per the Burnistoun lift clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FFRoYhTJQQ


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 11:38 AM
horizontal rule
24

A PHONE NUMBER.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 11:41 AM
horizontal rule
25

Can we have a hurricane thread? Like, why are no websites of transportation services I plan to use tomorrow morning listing any sort of information about what time they project they might shut down?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 12:03 PM
horizontal rule
26

Also, this is bullshit.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 12:03 PM
horizontal rule
27

Transportation services make it a practice to never provide information on expected delays and interruptions. Why should hurricanes be different?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 12:12 PM
horizontal rule
28

25: Unless you are heading south from your presumed location in central New Jersey you should be OK tomorrow morning.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 12:16 PM
horizontal rule
29

28: I have a westbound flight half an hour before noon. It looks like the trains will be running to get me to the airport, but I'm not sure how confident I am in Newark dealing with rain....


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 12:21 PM
horizontal rule
30

It always makes me smile when Google Ireland's recorded greeting directs me to google.co.uk. Here are some angry customers in return for 800 years of oppression!


Posted by: harry the stiff sod | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 12:55 PM
horizontal rule
31

Here's the current Newark Airport forecast for Saturday:

Showers and thunderstorms, mainly after noon. High near 82. East wind between 3 and 9 mph. Chance of precipitation is 80%. New rainfall amounts between a quarter and half of an inch possible.

Although now that I see the "hype" I think congestion-related delays and "we're all going to die" prep might impact you.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 12:55 PM
horizontal rule
32

I wish phone lines just went away, and you could IM help lines.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 08-26-11 6:55 PM
horizontal rule
33

Yes, this is a real anti-pattern. We keep telling our clients that they could do so much better with their voice systems, but there's a hell of a lot of idiots out there. For example, every call centre in the world tracks the average hold time as a management KPI in order to flog the galley slaves harder when it rises. Some of them even show it on a big LED screen over the cubicle farm.

But when was the last time you dialled into some organisation's call centre and the IVR told you how long you could expect to wait, so you could make a sensible decision whether to hold on the line or jack it in and do something less pointless? (Actually, the only one I've ever met was our national telco's, while my old boss was a director. They took it away again after he fell out of favour.)

I was once invited to a HugeTechCo involved in call centres and telco billing's customer conference. It was like going to a meeting of Nazi aeroengine production managers - I expected someone to suggest introducing Leistungsernährung at any moment. (That was also the one where I horrified their CTO by knowing SPARQL.)

The only sane people in that industry are T-Mobile UK (they don't pay the call centre staff by throughput but by first-call resolution) and these people, who are brilliant and deserve to be richer than Google.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 08-27-11 3:03 AM
horizontal rule
34

Alex, we have a number of those "estimates wait time and tells you at the outset" deployed in the US. Credit card companies and insurers I deal with frequently have them. Some regular banks.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 08-27-11 5:04 AM
horizontal rule
35

"But when was the last time you dialled into some organisation's call centre and the IVR told you how long you could expect to wait, so you could make a sensible decision whether to hold on the line or jack it in and do something less pointless?"

It's pretty common over here, but if you only do one thing, number of callers ahead of you is better, I think, the estimates can be misleading.


Posted by: David The Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 08-27-11 5:15 AM
horizontal rule
36

Or don't you have that either?


Posted by: David The Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 08-27-11 5:26 AM
horizontal rule
37

I've heard both in use at various companies I've dealt with, but Alex is right that it's not as widespread as it should be.

And 33.1 is right [I used to work in call centres, and, for a year or so, was a manager in one] re: the LED screens, slave-driving, and so on.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-27-11 8:01 AM
horizontal rule
38

Really, Fonolo's technology is amazingly awesome (a web search engine for IVRs, with click-to-call deep dialing, plus click-to-schedule and call-back-on-answer, and they have plans for wiki-like annotation on the IVR map).

In general, call centres are like the car industry would be if GM had won the 1980s. No unions! Only one kind of car! Ever faster throughput! Who cares about the fuck-up rate! It's a testament to the pleasure people get from exercising petty managerial tyranny, even at the expense of actual profit, that nobody has introduced anything like the TPS or neocraftsmanship systems.

Also, I suspect that all speech to text systems will always be a bit crap. It's one of those problems where it's not so much a better algorithm or a faster processor you need as a better-defined question.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 08-27-11 10:38 AM
horizontal rule
39

The California DMV will not only tell you how long you have to wait, but offer to let you leave your phone number and be called back. And here's the crazy thing—someone actually calls you back!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-27-11 11:29 AM
horizontal rule
40

39: I used that too, it was excellent.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 08-27-11 11:51 AM
horizontal rule
41

Maybe no one is reading this any more, but I have to vent. The worst experience I had with this was in Australia, when I had to do some half hour long automated phone card set up. It involved reciting any and all numbers associated with me, including the birth and death dates of all known ancestors, high school locker combination, and my name spelled backwards and forwards, etc. Anyways, I had to speak into the phone, but of course, since I don't have a goofy Aussie accent (after a point I did try to mimic one), it couldn't understand me. After three failures, it would transfer me to a real person (at an Indian call center, of course), to give the information. You would think I could give it all to the woman directly but, no, after telling her ONE piece of information, it would transfer me back to the automated system, so it could fail and then transfer me back. When I pointed out how utterly stupid and time-wasting this was for both of us, the woman acknowledged that but pointed out I had to get a failure for each piece of information on the automated system before I could talk to her.

A second recent harrowing phone experience was trying to buy a plane ticket over the phone in China. My name is long and onerous for English speakers, and it took me about an hour to spell out my full name for the very patient woman on the other end (who confirmed the spelling with a text message). Finally when I finished, the woman told me names couldn't exceed 24 characters, whereas mine was 27. She couldn't process the ticket, but I couldn't abbreviate my name since it had to match my passport. At that point, I hung up and decided to take the train instead.


Posted by: Britta | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 1:07 AM
horizontal rule
42

Meet the (mutual!) mortgage lender that can't handle addresses with multiple occupancy. Seriously. Because they don't understand "Flat x, xx somewhere street, somewhereville, X99 9XX", they looked up "my name, xx somewhere st. somewhereville, X99 9XX" in the electoral roll, failed to find me, and denied me credit as a non-existent person.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:02 AM
horizontal rule
43

What kind of credit do you get for not existing?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:04 AM
horizontal rule
44

I've had the occasional (admittedly minor) trouble proving my identity due to my suffix being rendered funny, e.g. Iii, 111, lll, and 3.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:24 AM
horizontal rule
45

What kind of credit do you get for not existing?

Exemption from the corporeal tax.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:28 AM
horizontal rule
46

You know what they say about death and taxes, "Fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:33 AM
horizontal rule
47

44. Hang on, are you saying that if you go by Stanley Q. Laurel III, the III is officially part of your name?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:39 AM
horizontal rule
48

If it isn't part of your name, you are married to your mom.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:42 AM
horizontal rule
49

47: It's on all my official documents: birth certificate, driver's license, passport, (maybe not my Subway Club card). Is that not commonplace in the UK?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:47 AM
horizontal rule
50

If it isn't part of your name, you are married to your mom.

No, I'd take it as a sort of informal clarification. Stanley's name, in this hypothetical, would be Stanley Quetzalcoatl Laurel; his father's name would be Stanley Quetzalcoatl Laurel and so would his grandfather. On occasions where confusion might arise you additionally refer to them numerically because it's simpler than calling them "the drummer", "the flugelhorn player" and the "the bass saxophonist". Or so I'd supposed.

Even Elizabeth II doesn't have a number in her legal name, which is simply Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Windsor.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:53 AM
horizontal rule
51

Did her mom have the exact same name?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 6:59 AM
horizontal rule
52

51. No, but people in Britain don't number their names, period. I can think of people whose names have gone down father to son for many generations, and I've never come across that usage here. At most you'd sometimes speak of "old John Smith" and "young John Smith". The only people who ever use numbers are reigning monarchs and very occasionally (and unofficially) dukes and earls, and it's not because they have the same name as their parents.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:08 AM
horizontal rule
53

au contraire!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:09 AM
horizontal rule
54

Is there a state-assigned number that Brits use for identification? Do scots use the same numbering? Northern Irish?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:10 AM
horizontal rule
55

There's nothing state assigned about British names at all. In common law your legal name is that by which you're generally known. In practice, most people use the one on their birth/marriage/naturalisation certificate because it's handy to have a piece of paper. The only number on such certificates is the date.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:17 AM
horizontal rule
56

You get assigned a National Insurance number, equivalent to the US Social Security number, at or around birth or immigration. It isn't formally an identification number, but there are some databases which use it as as a unique key. The difficulty with this is that almost nobody can ever remember their NI number (9 characters), so unless you happen to have a wage slip or something on you when they ask they have to search on your name anyway.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:25 AM
horizontal rule
57

Speaking of identity-proving-ish things, I just filled out a rental application this week, and I was surprised to learn that the prospective landlord was planning to (and did) phone my place of employment to confirm not only that I work there but also my salary. I'd never encountered that before. (On the other hand, I'm pretty sure she didn't pull a credit report, which has been the standard practice for rental applications I've submitted in the past.)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:29 AM
horizontal rule
58

So how to distinguish for databases between family members with the same name living at the same address? Police forces in the US use name + DOB, I think.

How large is the paperless population of Britain? Can you get a bank account with a foreign passport but no work visa, for instance?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:29 AM
horizontal rule
59

I've wondered about the suffix "Sr.", which you always see as an option (alongside "Jr." and "III")on fill-in-the-blank name forms that include a "suffix" box. How exactly people usually go about officially getting the suffix "Sr."? When they have a kid and decide to name the kid after themselves, do they file paperwork to also change their own name?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:29 AM
horizontal rule
60

Hilariously, the lender has my NI number, DoB, bank account numbers...but specifically they want me to be on the register of electors, and the format of my address means that they can't LEFT JOIN applicants and electors with 'address' as a foreign key because of their horror of a brain-damaged implementation.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:38 AM
horizontal rule
61

Come to think of it, I had to deny ever having been refused credit on the application, which implies their SQL type error is going to go on my fucking credit report.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:40 AM
horizontal rule
62

Actually, I think (and this is offhand, not professional) the law in the US is the same as the UK in terms of your legal name being the name you're generally known as. In principle, if you want your name to be Starchild, you can spin around three times, clap your hands, and say "I dub myself Starchild!", and so long as you inform everyone who needs to know in a way that satisfies them, and don't use the name change for fraud, that's really your new name even without court assistance. The legal name-change proceeding is about greasing the wheels to make it easy to tell people, rather than being generally required.

The sticking point is "inform everyone who needs to know in a way that satisfies them". And the DMV and the Social Security Administration and so on aren't generally satisfied without legal paperwork. But if you could do without a drivers license and so forth, which you're not legally required to have, you could change your name without paperwork.

(Actually, I kind of did this -- didn't change my name on the marriage license, and then hyphenated later. I got a drivers license and social security card in my right name by showing up with the marriage license demonstrating that I was married to a man named Buck, and looking plaintive until they gave me ID in the name Buck-Breath. But the fact that a couple of agencies stretched a point for me doesn't make the legality of my current name questionable -- they just had to be satisfied in order to change their records. My name really is Buck-Breath, rather than Breath, despite the fact that my change process was informal.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:42 AM
horizontal rule
63

58. 1 That's the same, I think.
58.2 I don't know, but these days I doubt it. All those kinds of regulations were tightened up in the first years of this century. I have no idea what would happen if you walked into a bank and said, "Hi, I'm a passing American tourist, but I just happen to have this large Sterling cheque which I'd like to deposit with you." When my MiL died ISTR we opened accounts for one of my American in-laws fairly easily to facilitate them holding funds in this country, but everything was easier in those innocent days.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:43 AM
horizontal rule
64

this large Sterling cheque

No self-respecting American spells it "cheque". Sheesh.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:45 AM
horizontal rule
65

64. Yes but you're trying to get a British banker to do you a favour by overlooking your lack of documents...


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 7:49 AM
horizontal rule
66

So how do the banks, the immigration authorities, and the billing departments of hospitals distinguish between people with the same name and same address?

For several decades, the death rate in the 13th arrondissment of Paris was unusually low because the identities of Chinese there legally would be sold on to new holders when the original name-bearer died and was quietly and privately buried.

Individuals have the freedom to get nicknames or whatever tattooed onto their necks, but control over identity can't just belong to individuals. After all, a crowd of pseudonyms couldn't even manage a sustained conversation, much less any more demanding social interaction.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:00 AM
horizontal rule
67

62 is my understanding as well, although the fact that it's the "technical" rule is really more of an anachronism from the less record-heavy days of yore, when "you are what you're known as" was really the only practical rule. For most important purposes, it's really not the rule anymore. By which I mean: if I started calling myself Starchild tomorrow, I could successfully change my name for all purposes under the common law, but there aren't very many purposes anymore for which your common law name is all that important.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:05 AM
horizontal rule
68

So how do the banks, the immigration authorities, and the billing departments of hospitals distinguish between people with the same name and same address?

Driving license, passport, company access pass, whatever... If you're in the country without either a birth/adoption/naturalisation certificate or a passport, you probably don't want to trouble the powers that be too much anyway.

Hospitals only have billing departments for private patients. They will access their insurance details before they admit them. Most people don't get billed by hospitals (yet).


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:10 AM
horizontal rule
69

62, 67: Yeah, I am in the process of changing an infant's name legally to the only name he's ever been called.* I was wacked out on pain killers and -- insane and long story omitted -- by myself. Being told by the registrar that I had to name him before leaving the hospital, I believed it and gave the poor kiddo a placeholder name. Turns out I could have left the name field blank and then taken a year to let the state know what I'd chosen. Instead I have to get some docs notarized and give a reason for the change and affirm that Little O isn't trying to escape the debts he's accumulated in bankruptcy or hide from John Law. And pay $$$. Luckily NYC has its own program that only charges $65. Doing it via the NYS supreme court costs $250. After the name change is approved by the courts, I have to run one of those cheezy ads in the back of the Voice.

*Well, he was called "Fucko" in utero and for the first week of his life.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
70

I found out that my parents hyphenated my name when I was 16 and going for my driver's license. It was sitcom-esque - I handed over my license, and the woman asked me to spell my name, and I did, and she said "You left out the hyphen" and I said wearily "It's all one word, there's no hyphen" and she said "Yes there is" etc.

It turns out originally there had been one, and then my parents dropped it when the hyphen caused everyone to shorten my name. They want both names run together, goddammit.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:26 AM
horizontal rule
71

69: Tell the story sometime? Sounds interesting.

67: Oh, certainly, to get by in the modern world you need paperwork. Situations like mine are a remaining vestige of the common-law rule, though -- when the DMV took inadequate paperwork and gave me a license anyway, they weren't erroneously disregarding my real legal name in any sense, they were just being lax with their own procedures.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:29 AM
horizontal rule
72

My father and his father have/had the same name. The idea that either of them would then have a number appended would have caused hilarity. Chris is right that no-one here ever uses a numeral after their name, or even 'jr' for that matter.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
73

Many years ago somebody I knew went through the breakup from hell, at the end of which her ex refused to reimburse any of money she had put into the house they'd bought together (she had put up the deposit and paid half the mortgage for several years). It ended in court. At one point during this proceeding the ex changed his name in common law to - well it might as well have been Starchild, only it was sillier - in order to argue that all the documents in the case were naming him wrongly.

Eventually the court ruled that he was really called Stupid Hippyname, but that the documents which called him by his previous name were just dandy. It delayed the outcome of the case by a few months and didn't help him at all when it came to allocating costs, but it was all allowed to be legal.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:34 AM
horizontal rule
74

Come to think of it, my father-in-law and brother-in-law have the same name. Not sure how they handle it in Czechistan, but I don't ever recall seeing anything other than just plain 'Ladislav X' for both of them.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
75

Ladislav X: not the most successful member of the Nation of Islam.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:39 AM
horizontal rule
76

The idea that either of them would then have a number appended would have caused hilarity.

I don't write my name with the suffix except on official stuff. And even there it seems incredibly toolish.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:39 AM
horizontal rule
77

Huh. I hadn't realized that the use of "Jr." and numerals after names was a specifically American thing. It's quite common here.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:39 AM
horizontal rule
78

re: 77

I think to British eyes it's almost parodically American. To the extent that pompous American characters in films or sitcoms are always called something like Chester A. Baumgartner, the IIIrd.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:41 AM
horizontal rule
79

77. You've probably noticed that most American characters in P.G.Wodehouse have numerals after their names. This is intended to raise a cheap laugh at the stereotype among the Brit readership.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:43 AM
horizontal rule
80

Totally pwned


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:43 AM
horizontal rule
81

With the Wodehouse you had a nicer example.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:47 AM
horizontal rule
82

Birth number in CZ for banking, health, and security records:

http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodn%C3%A9_%C4%8D%C3%ADslo


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:48 AM
horizontal rule
83

A long time ago on Lovelines, Adam Corolla used to say that Dr. Drew had attended The Little Lord Fauntleroy School For Albino Hemophiliacs, which always cracked me up.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 8:51 AM
horizontal rule
84

I know plenty of "Juniors," but I don't think I have actually met anybody who was a "III" and known it at the time I met them.

In my own family, the tradition is to use the grandfather's name for the first grandson of the same last name, so that might cut down on the problem.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:01 AM
horizontal rule
85

Come to think of it, my father-in-law and brother-in-law have the same name. Not sure how they handle it in Czechistan

In the Highlands, where there is a shortage of surnames, they use cognomens. So if you're Ian MacNeil, and so are your father, your maternal uncle, one of your grandfathers and a cousin or two, you might be Ian Beag (little Ian) to distinguish you from Ian Mor (big Ian), Ian Dubh (black Ian), Ian Ruadh (red Ian), Ian Ban (fair Ian) and so on.
Or, on at least one island, they don't use surnames at all; you go by the name of your farm. So you're, say, Matt Morrison, but you'll be known as Matt Howar, and people will call your family the Howars, because your farm is called Howar, and what your actual surname is doesn't really matter (and people might not even know it). Which is bad luck if your farm is called Twatt.
(Yes, one of them is.)


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:04 AM
horizontal rule
86

I went to high school with a IV - a relative of an NY Congressman with a complicated family and a number of descendants with his exact name. I think there were at least two John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith the Fourths, cousins, or uncle and nephew, or something.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:04 AM
horizontal rule
87

I think there were at least two John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith the Fourths

Clearly they needed to be 4.1 and 4.2.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:07 AM
horizontal rule
88

billing departments of hospitals

Hospitals that send bills? Seriously, for any social security or tax purpose the NI No is used as an identifier. (There are an estimated several million fraudulent ones in circulation.) The NHS has been sharper recently about collecting on random foreigners who have major surgery on the taxpayer, but it's still pretty laid-back.

Typically, if you need to demonstrate identity in order to claim some document or other, you are advised to bring along two phone or other utility bills. You will note that the point of this procedure is not actually to prove your *name*, but rather to prove that you reside at an address where you can be held responsible if you fail to pay your debts, masquerade as someone else, hire out your driving licence to six different illegal immigrants in a day, etc.

Regarding 75, I'm delighted to say that I need no numbers after my X, having a pretty unusual slave name. Oh yes? Well, English surnames were in fact invented by a foreign invader as a database primary key to keep track of us so they could make us pay taxes and perform feudal duties like fighting the French and the Scots. (They hadn't yet realised we wouldn't actually need conscription until 1916, and perhaps we wouldn't have if we'd been fighting the French.)


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:07 AM
horizontal rule
89

Yeah, I just checked, and my guy's uncle changed his name from John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith Ramirez to J.J.J. Smith IV, so that he could pursue his own political career.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:09 AM
horizontal rule
90

89: That's where the courts might play a role, no? I mean, if I changed my name to the name of my Congressional Rep and then ran against him, I'd probably have trouble.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:12 AM
horizontal rule
91

I know two families where the kid is Something Something III and goes by the nickname "Tres" pronounced "Trace." Aggggh!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:13 AM
horizontal rule
92

Oh, yeah, fraud is fraud. This wasn't fraud, just sort of wrapping himself in the mantle of his grandfather.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
93

You'd think so; the Political Parties, Elections, and Referendums Act was passed in part to deal with a bloke in Wales who insisted on standing for election as the candidate of the Literal Democrats.

He got 10,000 votes...


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
94

91: I thought the classic was "Trey". Or, if you're making fun of the guy, "Three-sticks".


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:15 AM
horizontal rule
95

My grandfather just had a scarf.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:15 AM
horizontal rule
96

95 to 92.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:16 AM
horizontal rule
97

Although, in the light of future events, perhaps the Literal Democrat had a point.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:20 AM
horizontal rule
98

My father is a III, but I am thankfully not a IV.

91, 94: "Trip" is the classic nickname.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:22 AM
horizontal rule
99

I know two families where the kid is Something Something III and goes by the nickname "Tres" pronounced "Trace."

Much better to pronounce it as written and introduce yourself as "Something Something EEEEEEEE!"


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:26 AM
horizontal rule
100

I knew a guy at Cornell who was a IV. He was from a very WASPy, old-money background. I also went to elementary school with a Tres, who I guess must have been a III although I never thought about it until now.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:26 AM
horizontal rule
101

My cousin would be a VI, I think, but we don't really do that here, as ttaM and others have mentioned.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:27 AM
horizontal rule
102

Every time I see Random American IV I read it as Intravenous.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:31 AM
horizontal rule
103

John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith

For the ethnic vote, he could have gone to Jan Jakob Jingleheimer Schmidt.*

*My dad actually learned the song this way, with the Js pronounced as Y sounds.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:31 AM
horizontal rule
104

My cousin would be a VI

Some people (like my high school friend) keep the same numbers even when the oldest person with the same name is dead, but I think it is, or at least used to be, more conventional to number from the oldest living name-holder. So when Great-Grandpa John Sr. dies, John Jr. becomes John Sr., Trip becomes John Jr., and his son John IV becomes John III. If your cousin's great-great-great grandfather isn't alive, he's probably not a VI by those rules.

I may be living in the past, though -- I think I'm describing common practice in the first half of the twentieth century more than now.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:33 AM
horizontal rule
105

I am, in fact, James Robert Helpy-Chalk IV. My father goes by Jim Helpy-Chalk, his father went by Bob Helpy-Chalk, and the original of the product line went by Jim.

I originally lobbied to name our firstborn daughter James Robert Helpy-Chalk V, on the grounds that she could go by Jamie. That was nixed, and I didn't really want to pass the name on to a boy, so the whole tradition has gone down.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:34 AM
horizontal rule
106

104. That sounds amazingly confusing if the numbers are used in official contexts.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:35 AM
horizontal rule
107

Boop boop ski doop!


Posted by: Pauly Shore | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:36 AM
horizontal rule
108

106: The numbers aren't used in official contexts, really. At least, in datasets of names you see lots of juniors and IIIs, but I can't recall seeing "IV" in any of them.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:36 AM
horizontal rule
109

108 was me.


Posted by: Moby Hick VIII | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:37 AM
horizontal rule
110

49 to 108.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:39 AM
horizontal rule
111

110: I've still never seen a single "IV" in any of the many datasets I've used. To be fair, I haven't been looking. Maybe it is solidifying as computers get pickier, but everyone I've known who was "junior" dropped the "junior" when their dad died.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:43 AM
horizontal rule
112

The suffix is useful in databases! My dad has had trouble getting security clearance because of things I've done. This wouldn't happen if the IIIs and IVs were in the databases.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:45 AM
horizontal rule
113

My first cousin Tom is a IV. He's known as T4. Neither he nor my first cousin Dave (maternal side -- he's a III) have kids, so we don't get to see how far it goes.

A more distant cousin of mine is said to be VII or VIII; I through III lived in Scotland, IV emigrated to Texas in the 1880s, and V to Ohio in the late 20s. I don't think anyone used the numbers before recently, but it's become something of a convention when talking about stuff. The one who's my contemporary doesn't have kids, so we're about done. I don't know him, but I bet he doesn't use a number.

A former colleague of mine back east is a III, and his son is nicknamed Ivy.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:47 AM
horizontal rule
114

everyone I've known who was "junior" dropped the "junior" when their dad died.

Douglas Fairbanks and Martin Luther King?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:47 AM
horizontal rule
115

My first cousin Tom is a IV. He's known as T4

An unfortunate nickname. T4 means triage category four - the lowest priority for evacuation.

T1 is critical/urgent; T2 is serious; T3 is walking wounded. T4 is dead. So, you know, no rush.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:48 AM
horizontal rule
116

114: I don't know them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:48 AM
horizontal rule
117

rob and I know a V. He goes by a nickname derived from his middle name.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:50 AM
horizontal rule
118

a man named Buck, and looking plaintive until they gave me ID in the name Buck-Breath

I like that Buck has the same first and last name. Say hi to Buck Buck for me.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:50 AM
horizontal rule
119

118 His real name is Major.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:52 AM
horizontal rule
120

Sergeant Simon: Okay how many Marios are there between the two of you?
Lizardbreath: Three: Mario Mario and Lizardbreath Mario.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:53 AM
horizontal rule
121

O.K. MLK goes against my theory, but Douglas Fairbanks would be a different issue as both the father and the son were known. Another example would be Hank Williams and Hank Williams Junior. But hardly anybody says "Bill Gates the Third."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:53 AM
horizontal rule
122

Another example would be Hank Williams and Hank Williams Junior.

Also a III in there.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:57 AM
horizontal rule
123

Also, MLK, Sr., outlived MLK, Jr., so it doesn't really go against my theory.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:57 AM
horizontal rule
124

MLK goes against my theory

It's a junior thing. You wouldn't understand.


Posted by: Sammy Davis Jr. | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 9:58 AM
horizontal rule
125

From the wiki page for MKL, Sr., I learn that there is a category called "Deaths from myocardial infarction". It turns out that of 3,447 people have died from MI, which suggests that the list isn't exhaustive or all of those bypass surgeries aren't needed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:03 AM
horizontal rule
126

125: There was a Math Kernel Library, Sr.?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:12 AM
horizontal rule
127

114: Martin Luther King Sr. outlived Jr. . . . As wilth Bill Gates Sr., circumstances required Martin Luther King Sr. to be known as Sr. for much of his adult life, including after Jr.'s death, and he remains Sr. after his own death.

Far future historians will endlessly debate whether Martin Luther was coronated King himself, if so on what continent, and if he wasn't, why those monuments and faded texts always refer to his apparent successor as Martin Luther King II.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:12 AM
horizontal rule
128

This, from the wikipedia entry on the film Junior, is funny:

In 2007 the Scottish artist Sandy Smith launched an essay-writing competition, asking entrants to attempt to prove that Junior could be considered the greatest movie of all time. Despite being covered in the national press the competition received fewer entries than there were prizes offered. The essays submitted, and one commissioned from an academic essay-writing company to Smith's own specifications, are available to read on the competition website - www.juniorbestfilmever.com


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:17 AM
horizontal rule
129

One of the reasons my brother isn't named after my dad is that the Northern half of the family uses the rules in 104, but the Southern half was clearly aiming for V & victory.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:17 AM
horizontal rule
130

62: And the DMV and the Social Security Administration and so on aren't generally satisfied without legal paperwork.

Good lord, are they ever not. Admittedly, since the DMV is operated at a state level, there's latitude in how strictly or laxly any given state chooses to enforce rules. The difference between New Hampshire and Maryland in this was striking, when I was dealing with transferring my mom's car title from her (in NH) to me (in MD) last year. It was the first time I've appreciated New Hampshire's "live free or die" motto: they were willing to agree that yes, I was my mother's daughter, yes, they could see that she had died and that I was executrix of her estate, and so, all cool.

Maryland by contrast would not allow me to simply transfer the title. I had to sell it to myself, for $0 if I liked. Okay, I said, if you insist I hereby sell it to myself for $0. Oh, they then said: we need a notarized bill of sale from you to yourself showing that you've sold it to yourself for $0. Notarized? Seriously? Yes.

This has nothing directly to do with names, however, and had I found five dollars this story would be about that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:22 AM
horizontal rule
131

If you have some kind of office and no record, you can get in on the notary public scam.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:28 AM
horizontal rule
132

I forgot that you also need an ink pad.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:28 AM
horizontal rule
133

58.2: Conversation has moved on, but no, a foreign national cannot get a bank account in the UK with just a passport. Or, for that matter, an immigration visa. You have to also show stable residence (your name needs to be on a lease, on utility bills, on a phone bill, that sort of thing). Woo, fun things I have been discovering!


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:33 AM
horizontal rule
134

They make you live in a barn?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:34 AM
horizontal rule
135

Oops, I have given out misinformation. Turns out it depends on which bank you're at! HSBC will give me one without anything else, but that makes sense given the international flavor of the bank.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:44 AM
horizontal rule
136

133. I think the visa thing must be a product of the War on Certain Categories of Terror, because I'm pretty sure my SiL, whose residence is only as stable as the geology of California permits, had no trouble opening a British bank account from that address. She did have to show up in person and wave a passport at them. That was in the 90s.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:46 AM
horizontal rule
137

I opened a Natwest account with nothing but a US passport in 2003, but many, many things have changed in Britain re: immigration since then.


Posted by: real ffeJ annaH | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:51 AM
horizontal rule
138

And, to add to the idea that it is probably the result of the War on Certain Categories of Terror (I love this), all of my American friends were able to easily get bank accounts in 2002.

But it could also be because I'm getting one at Nationwide, which is ... not quite a bank as I understand it? Or something? I think I have some cultural learning to do.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 10:56 AM
horizontal rule
139

I recommend putting all your money in an Icelandic Bank. What could go wrong?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 11:11 AM
horizontal rule
140

The requirements for foreigners getting a bank account in Germany definitely changed, though not immediately after 9/11, as I was still able to open an account with passport only in September 2001. When I tried to open an account in 2005, I didn't realize that the requirements had changed. I was going about the business of opening an account, chatting with the friendly bank employee, he asks for all my documents to photocopy, I hand them over... and he comes back less than a minute later, suddenly cold as ice. Rather than just informing me that I needed to have a residence permit, he accused me of trying to sneakily get a bank account without one. It was a bewildering experience.

He did seem to get tons of information about me when he put my info into his computer; maybe he could see the thing about how I lived a few blocks from Mo/ham/ed At/ta


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 11:19 AM
horizontal rule
141

Nationwide is technically a building society. That means in practice that it's a mutual (formally owned by its investors, not shareholders), but it does everything a bank does. If anybody lobbies you to demutualise (convert it into a conventional bank owned by billionaires), vote no.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 11:19 AM
horizontal rule
142

||

Oh, hey, I just got approved for that new lease. Farewell, perennially late-with-the-bills housemates!

|>


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 11:35 AM
horizontal rule
143

142 +1


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 11:46 AM
horizontal rule
144

143? I suck at math, but I think I know that one.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 11:48 AM
horizontal rule
145


You have to also show stable residence (your name needs to be on a lease, on utility bills, on a phone bill, that sort of thing).

When I wanted to open a bank account in France, the bank demanded a utility bill (specifically, one from EDF/GDF) to open an account. But neither EDF nor GDF will open a customer account unless you have a local bank account (payment is by direct debit). I don't recall how I resolved that dilemma, but I remember it being an enormous pain.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 11:57 AM
horizontal rule
146

Germany has similar circles. Have to be enrolled as a student to get the student health insurance, which you need to get your residence permit, which you need to enroll at the university. You have to convince someone somewhere in that circle to fudge something.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09- 7-11 1:08 PM
horizontal rule