Yeah, I don't buy that. You can be unconscious and get screwed.
he is aware enough that he wouldn't be failing to generalize gay sex
So he... was generalizing gay sex?
The person who initiates sex had to decide as well. They just made their decision before the person who decides whether to accept or decline the invitation.
He... knows... that he is not ... not ... generalizing. So yes, he is generalizing. Which he is.
I think it's just different skill sets. There are also lazy ways to fuck and lazy ways to be fucked. When everyone's doing their job, it's way more fun. But I do have to say, I underestimated the difficulty of being the fucker until the first time I strapped one on. I am not good at it! I suppose it takes practice, and I've only done it maybe half a dozen times, but fucking is hard too.
Seems difficult to figure out, in the non-gay context; nobody's in a good position to make a particularly valid comparison.
Also, seriously, anal is not vaginal sex. Receiving anal requires an intensity of concentration that is almost hypnotic. Vaginal sex, there's a wide range of possible effort levels.
I've heard things like 6.last before (Betty Dodson mentions it in _Sex for One_, I think), but I really wonder if using a strap-on is a good comparison; I feel like the equipment-management effort changes the game. I guess what we need for the comparison is men who have used strap-ons and can compare it to their previous experience.
On the other hand, if you give a blowjob, you are in a sense an innie, but you are definitely doing more work, to the extent that talk about giving a blowjob, rather than receiving a dick in the mouth.
I think we need Tiresias to work out all these questions.
GREAT, COMPLETELY INGORE IRRUMATIO, ROB
8 would seem only to reinforce Savage's point.
10 makes a good point. On the other hand, I've never been on the receiving end of vaginal intercourse, but I wouldn't say that being on the receiving end of anal sex was more work than being on the, shall we say, delivery end of vaginal, anal, or oral, so... I guess I think Dan is wrong.
11: Surely there must be an MTF transsexual in the commentariat or lurkersphere who could give an expert opinion on this. I mean, this is still Unfogged, isn't it?
Ingore irrumatio sounds very painful, and messy.
I haven't relistened to that podcast, but my recollection from listening to it before was not that he was saying that it was more physical effort, but rather that it was something you might not always feel up to physically. That is you might feel exhausted in a way which makes you not want to be fucked, but might nonetheless be interested in other sexual activity.
Oh, wait, nevermind, I misread the post and thought Savage's point was exactly the opposite of what it was. He's obviously wrong. The opposite of his point is true.
not that he was saying that it was more physical effort, but rather that it was something you might not always feel up to physically. That is you might feel exhausted in a way which makes you not want to be fucked, but might nonetheless be interested in other sexual activity.
This is a common feeling for me, but I'm on the delivery end of things. I think it's just called being overtired and/or out of shape.
I'm a little confused by the innie/outie distinction. Being an innie = getting penetrated?
Also, 8.1 is exactly right. Seems difficult to generalize over the two.
Being an innie = getting penetrated?
Apparently, but this is a very confusing metaphor.
It is? If you're a hole in a situation, you're getting penetrated. If you're protruding in a situation, you're doing the penetration, no?
Being an innie = getting penetrated?
Bellybutton sex is quite possibly the least gratifying form of sex.
That's why we stick to oral bellybuttoning.
Bellybutton sex is quite possibly the least gratifying form of sex.
Apparently you've never tried eyeball sex.
23: Yeah, it's logical enough, but I still find it confusing. I dunno.
Surely getting a giant hook in your butt is more work than being a hook.
The fellatio/irrumatio distinction seems problematic to me. Are we going to distinguish sex acts where the parts are lined up the same way but one partner is moving more than the other? What if you are both moving? What if you take turns? Will we do this for anal and vaginal too?
Also 6 seems right but whatta I know.
6.last: Don't be too hard on yourself. Strap-ons are, FWICT, significantly trickier to use than an organ actually attached to your body for the purpose.
I think Savage's point about emotional effort is probably pretty interesting. Taking someone else into your body is something that very few men are willing to do, even if said men are bi rather than strictly hetero. The emotional vulnerability of being a "catcher" rather than a "pitcher" is surely a factor in this (not to mention that the cult of virility, with its not-at-all latent implications of sexism that Foucault talks about in the History of Sexuality is far from dead). That doing so is a large part of sex for women may partly help explain why women often show more emotional investment in sex than men do.
Physical effort, it's harder to see. Dudes do not have a real point of reference for what vaginal sex would feel like. Savage can only be guessing based on comparison with anal sex, which is rather different, being that it's in the butt and all.
Also, I'm pretty sure that individual variation among women in terms of the "difficulty" of being an "innie" is so great that it swamps meaningful inter-sex generalization.
(The same may be true for "innie" and "outtie" men but there I can't draw upon experience in reaching a conclusion).
31: I never understood that Toni Bentley bullshit about how getting penetrated is emotional and holy and whatnot. It's a social construct that may make it seem that way, but it's not how I experience sex in general. IME, guys get PLENTY emotional about the vulnerability of sex, and can be extremely sensitive about those emotions, perhaps because the stereotype goes the other way and doesn't allow them a space for being affected by it.
Receiving anal requires more trust and effort because there is a lot of stuff that can get broken down there. It's way more sensitive, it's an easier vector for STD transmission, the skin is not self-lubricating, the muscles are used to doing something else most of the time... just physiologically, it isn't as casual or easy an act as oral, or even vaginal sex.
The ad before the video linked in 35 was "The Best of The Lion King" for me, which just seems wrong.
the muscles are used to doing something else most of the time...
At least they don't just hang out doing nothing most of the time.
Adding to the Unfogged wiki: "Moby Hick does not have a prolapsed rectum."
I used to worry about getting a prolapsed rectum until I heard of this guy.
34.1: I never understood that Toni Bentley bullshit about how getting penetrated is emotional and holy and whatnot.
And I wouldn't necessarily go that far either. Just that it does of necessity require a level of trust in the other person, in the basics of the act, that being the penetrator doesn't.
IME, guys get PLENTY emotional about the vulnerability of sex, and can be extremely sensitive about those emotions, perhaps because the stereotype goes the other way and doesn't allow them a space for being affected by it.
Oh, guys are far from emotionally uninvested. But the nature of the investment is different on average. (If what I'm describing is in fact a thing, it's probably more like the differences between maternal and paternal emotional bonds. If that in turn is in fact a thing. It's complicated with all the social constructions and generational differences and whatnot.)
34.2: It occurs to me, in fact, that the specifics of teh buttsexing are probably a factor in Foucault's theorized cult of virility. I shoud've thought of that before.
41.1 doesn't make any sense to me. For oral sex certainly it takes more trust to be the penetrator, while for anal sex certainly it takes more trust to be the penetrated. So there can't be any hard-and-fast rule based on the basic penetrator/penetrated distinction.
Receiving anal requires an intensity of concentration that is almost hypnotic.
Everyone knows that Buddists receive anal the best.
42: For oral sex certainly it takes more trust to be the penetrator
Really? What if I choke to death?
Personally, I feel vulnerable just taking off my clothes.
It makes me feel so...I dunno...naked.
He might have stepped out for lunch. Lots of places don't bother to post rules about wearing clothes in the store.
45: You have teeth. CHOMP! CHOMP! CHOMP!
42: Oral doesn't even count as sex. Oral is a handshake.
Why Do All These Homosexuals Keep Shaking My Hand?
51: My palms are sweaty, but it doesn't get that bad.
Oral is a handshake.
Analingus is a bear hug.
Receiving (anal since I'm a guy) is difficult in a relax and focus sense but not much at all in a physical exertion sense. Giving vaginal is easily the most difficult in a physical exertion sense since a lot of women like to get pounded. Giving anal is slower and more cautious since you have to be careful.
Conclusions: gay sex does not generalize, most of this is obvious.
Taking over an office recently vacated by Old Kinderhook must be quite a challenge.
Taking over an office recently vacated by Old Kinderhook must be quite a challenge.
And an orifice, even more so.
36: Although come to think of it, that song would be a pretty interesting addition to the Lion King oeuvre.
A certain degree of curvature is not uncommon, but if it looks like a hook, you really ought to consult a medical professional.
Giving vaginal is easily the most difficult in a physical exertion sense since a lot of women like to get pounded.
Never really liked that phrasing.
"Firmly and repeatedly love-pummeled"?
"most difficult???" Honestly, if you're both sweaty it's great because you had fun. If that's a problem, it's possible to have a good time without moving all that much too.
I can't even imagine a lifestyle where physical considerations come close to emotional ones, where opening up is always demanding. Of course, I have a hard time understanding people who really like dressing up as well, and it seems that's geniunely and widely popular, so what do I know.
Here's my puzzler: do the glowing spines in Battlestar Galactica really suggest that most white people go for ventral rather than dorsal?
Or is this like asking about exchange rates in a B&W Japansese film?
that most white people go for ventral rather than dorsal?
Lateral and medial are close to impossible. What do you want?
women like vigor for the diction question.
I don't know about that. Does that preference correlate with liking simultaneous talking? Age, maybe? Too bad sampling's inevitably biased.
"Firmly and repeatedly love-pummeled"?
Don't mind if I do, thanks.
I'm beginning to suspect that asshooks are the new fucksaws.
68: The glowing spines in BSG were a bad idea abandoned really quickly. IMX (admittedly an extremely small sample set), dorsal is popular among white females.
I find bridge more tiring than cobra even when not lifting another person, but other than that I dunno.
I should probably consult a reference book to catch all the names of things I like.
73:
"Nothing I like better than giving a girl a good jackmormoning!"? eh.
Perhaps.
Hmm, I guess lower back tattoos are the cultural response to my BG question. Shows my age, I guess.
bridge ... lifting ?? Height-mismatch times aside, I don't understand.
Brown-paper packages tied up in string, if you know what I mean.
I find bridge a lot more relaxing than canasta.
You've got something on your nose and eyelashes, Maria.
80: I don't, but I'm fine with that.
IMX (admittedly an extremely small sample set), dorsal is popular among white females
"doggie can make even the smallest penis feel quite large [...] Not only is this the easiest small penis sex position on our list, but it's also one of the most popular."
And now I have a page named "small penis sex positions" in my browser history at work.
That bucket list keeps getting smaller.
86: I was worried about the same thing, so I googled "big penis sex positions" and clicked on a bunch of different results.
Seems like an odd thing to have on your bucket list: get helpy-chalk to have "small penis sex positions" in his browser history.
I hear sex with dogs will make even the smallest bucket list feel quite large.
89: That Apo's list. Mine was to mock him for complaining about it.
85: Hey, there's a reason they call me "man's best friend." I earned that title, lemme tell you.
Screwing your dog requires more emotional effort than screwing someone else's dog, but the latter requires more physical effort.
Over half of all young girls are willing to burden their dogs.
So let's go home and draw the curtains.
94:
Ogged as Rimbaud: Such crazy threads produced, only to walk away from it all.
I'm very good at screwing the pooch, ladiesbitches.
It's easier to screw someone than the be the one who got screwed? Yeah, that about sums up my love life.
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive, and also it requires less physical and emotional effort.
But in the end, they are exactly equal.
Bridge and cobra are yoga poses. Gemmunz.
...as is downwards -facing dog.
101:
I recently discovered hot yoga. Sure, it might be a poor substitute to going to the Russian Baths with AWB and Bave, but I love it nevertheless.
yoganidrasana
I just thought if I blue myself now, I would be nice and relaxed for dinner.
¡Me gusta tacos y burrrrrrrrrrritos!
86: Back in the days before the interblags I encountered an item in one of those oddball news columns about a man who was being prosecuted for bestiality, his crime having come to light due to the fact that his paramour was an armadillo from which he had contracted leprosy. His defense was that it didn't count because the armadillo was already dead. Every so often I try to find reference to this story on the internet, so my google profile includes repeated searches for things like "dead armadillo leprosy sex."
108: His defense was that it didn't count because the armadillo was already dead.
The Aggie who watched for cars got off with a warning.
His defense was that it didn't count because the armadillo was already dead.
It would be amusing if both bestiality and necrophilia were crimes but bestial necrophilia was a loophole. Not entirely surprising, though.
If the dead armadillo had been the outie rather than the innie, it would have been an armadildo.
I propose dead armadillos as the ISO reference standard for balanced emotional and physical effort when serving as either an outie or an innie.
84: Pretty much any response I make to that is going to suggest I'm not really The Curious Sofa material, isn't it.
With regard to a man who is not well-hung, would one say he was "poorly-hung"?
No, but only because one would not use a hyphen.
Actually I think I'd prefer "ill hung" as the opposite of "well hung".
Kim Hung-Ill is a dictator.
One does sympathize with over-hyphenation.
No, but only because one would not use a hyphen.
OK, I'll bite (yes, yes, LHF). How is this different from “ill-bred”, “ill-read”, etc.?
"Ill hung" sounds like it's crooked or something, whereas "poorly hung" sounds like the person is not well endowed.
119: well, it's about the penis.
"I've been hung poorly lately, Mister Jefferson."
the snickers bars are trying to re-brand that problem as "fun size." sans hyphen.
I believe a middle eastern gentleman who suffered a tragic circumcision gone wrong was left with a "micro-phallus."
OK, I'll bite (yes, yes, LHF). How is this different from "ill-bred", "ill-read", etc.?
It isn't and you shouldn't use a hyphen with those either. At least not when they're used predicatively; you should use a hyphen when they're used attributively.
Examples!
"That ill-bred yokel is remarkably well hung."
"That well-hung yokel is remarkably ill bred."
"Ill hung" sounds like it's crooked or something, whereas "poorly hung" sounds like the person is not well endowed.
That's not how "ill hung" reads to these eyes, but your comment gives me an excuse to link to the latest Art Thoughtz (NFSW).
That well-informed poster corrected my ill conceived notions about hyphenation.
Perverts, the lot of you. I am appalled.
To me "poorly hung" suggests it's crooked.
And that Art Thoughtz was linked here before, to general acclaim. By apo, maybe?
That one, really? I thought he linked the "On Beauty" one.
128: or maybe that wind gets in around the edges. Hey, that kinda works.
Essear, could you send me an email? Handle at gmail will do it.
your comment gives me an excuse to link to the latest Art Thoughtz (NFSW).
That's great.
That would suggest to me that it's detachable.
I think mockery of small genitalia is a candidate to be one of the behaviors we will be ashamed of in 2050.
Although the history of human mockery would suggest otherwise.
that'll happen around the time we stop thinking it's ok to laugh at farts.
Juvenal's Satire X
and as for sex its now long-forgotten,
Or should you try, his limp prick with its swollen vein, just
Lies there, lies there though you pummel it all night long.
What else could you expect from such feeble white-haired
Loins? Desire that attempts oral sex without the strength
To perform it, is that not rightly suspect, too?
There's a great new translation of these, the foreword is hilarious as apparently the two most prominent specialists detest each other and mock each other's possible misreadings.
I honestly never understood why farts are funny. This made being a teenage boy even harder than it normally is.
lw--what's the info on the new translation?
I honestly never understood why farts are funny.
They come out of your butt and announce their arrival with a trumpet flourish.
144: so is everything that describes funny?
Are you thinking of marketing a clown colonoscope?
This new product seems so wasteful, but I have to admit I'm thinking of trying it for the convenience.
Please, Mobes. It's a colownoscope.
Penguin Juvenal, translator is Peter Green