Re: Fixed-term marriage lisences [stet]

1

My, perhaps cynical, guess is that the insecure people you are thinking about will have nothing to do with this. It's an option, not a replacement, and the option does not meet their perceived needs. I'd guess that most of the term-limited marriages will be between people of disparate economic resources and that it will function like the pre-nup you need to sign if you are really hot and want to marry somebody really rich.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 6:44 PM
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If Mexico had RTFA, it would have known the appropriate term is 7 years.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 6:48 PM
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LICENSES

If Mexico had RTFA, it would have known the appropriate term is 7 years.

Or they could have watched the movie.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 6:51 PM
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El archivo está en Inglés.


Posted by: Opinionated Mexico | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 6:51 PM
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This legislation totally up-ends the insecurity aspect of marriage

It apparently replaces it with the prospect of a biennial conversation regarding whether or not we're happy enough together to keep going for another two years.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 6:55 PM
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No, I knew about B's rant. Hers was so idealistic, and this is so immediate, that the ground-level implications seemed really different.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 6:55 PM
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Er. Fix the spelling of the post's title? Licenses.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 6:57 PM
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Er. Read 3.1?


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 6:59 PM
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I did read 3.1 and had no idea it was correcting my spelling.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:00 PM
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No lo puedo leer, Señor Insensible.


Posted by: Opinionated Mexico | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:02 PM
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If I corrected the title now, think how confused everyone would be. ¡Que horror!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:02 PM
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QUEL FROMAGE


Posted by: OPINIONATED FRENCHMAN | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:04 PM
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I might just fix the title myself. What do you think of THAT.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:07 PM
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Wouldn't that be a merry face-off, if neb corrected my post errors and I introduced them into his posts?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:08 PM
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13.last is missing a question mark.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:08 PM
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14: Naturally my first move would be to strip you of the privileges that enable you to edit others' posts.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:10 PM
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8: I thought I'd make it explicit.

It is interesting stuff, Heebie. I think I've heard about such temporary marriage arrangements in other places; not sure if there was a built-in two year arrangement to it. Maybe more like a contract with a number of years to be set by the couple, which doesn't necessarily seem less stressful to the couple's actual love relationship, but at least puts some limits on the extent of financial responsibility ... going forward.

Weird, actually.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:11 PM
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16: Not very merry.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:15 PM
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Merry in haste, repaint at leisure.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:19 PM
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Are you guys having a huge fight or something? Mostly it just seems like this isn't a bad spelling blog on its front page, so, you know. Fix and move on. ?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:21 PM
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I have long felt a need to confess my love for Moby Hick, and now seems like as good a time as any.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:21 PM
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I just finished painting my bathroom and I'm married, so it fit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:30 PM
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"licenses" was just a ruse to sneak "IMO" through.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:44 PM
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Crap. I can't even misspell it if I try. "Lisences"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:44 PM
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You failed to capitalize it, if that helps.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:53 PM
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2: two years is the minimum; presumably a standard 7-year contract could be drafted.


Posted by: Mike d | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 7:59 PM
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I'm beyond help.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:01 PM
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28

||

I just rewatched Can't Stop The Music (1980). Although I have seen it many times, it has lost none of its power to baffle me.

|>


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:07 PM
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That "[stet]" in the post title brings little-bitchness to new heights.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:09 PM
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29: I thought it was a good compromise position between leaving well enough alone and changing the spelling…


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:11 PM
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I think it's a good compromise. It serves as a sort of 'acknowledged' marker.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:18 PM
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You might think it even serves as a sort of "let's leave this here" marker.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:23 PM
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33

So you're saying I should really go fix the spelling now?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:27 PM
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Ha.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:28 PM
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Yes, change the spelling from "stet" to "sic".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:36 PM
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No, don't be absurd! I considered "sic" but "stet" is obviously the right choice, as what's at issue here is not the preservation, in another venue, of an error, but rather the letting stand, in the venue of its production, of an error.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:37 PM
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From my unfinished dissertation:

'"Your [sic] going to site[site] more published work if you want to get you're [sic] proposal approved." (Committee Member, oral communication, March 2003).'


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:37 PM
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36 is fascinatingly agreeable.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:38 PM
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The second "site" would be sick if it knew how much pain it caused me for not being 'sic'.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:39 PM
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No, don't be absurd! I considered "stet" but "sic" is obviously the right choice, as what's at issue here is not the preservation, in another venue, of an error, but rather the letting stand, in the venue of its production, of an error.

Uh oh.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:39 PM
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Apo changed it in the database. That's what happened. I changed it back.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:40 PM
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nosflow is apparently one of the mullahs.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 9-11 8:51 PM
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43

Two years seems silly. 7 years is the perfect number.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:48 AM
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44

Surely it should be "lisences licenses [stet]".


Posted by: OPINIONATED SUB | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 4:43 AM
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The romantics who believe in Twue Wuv will get the permanent option and regret it. The sensible types who realize that love is complex, shifting, subtle, fraught, and delicate will get the short term marriage contracts, renew them regularly, and die together at a ripe old age. Another set will use the shortest term contracts as a form of long-term quasi-prostitution, such a rich older man marrying a much younger woman under an arrangement in which he pays her university tuition in exchange for regular sex and performance as arm candy at business functions.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 5:31 AM
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I'm not sure I understand what need the contracts fulfill. You can get a pre-nup that accomplishes the same thing, and if you do that, you get to maintain the fiction that you're married forever, which is often a desirable fiction for at least one of the parties involved. I don't foresee a lot of interest in this if it becomes available.



Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 5:46 AM
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Something like this exist in Shi'a Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_mut%E2%80%98ah


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:17 AM
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48

28: Why, Sifu? For God's sake, why???


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:20 AM
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2, 43: I know, right? And where's my gorram consulting fee, Mexico? Billy Wilder and I are not amused.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:20 AM
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47: And trust those sneaky Muslims to have beaten us all to this eminently sensible idea. But they're all terrorists now, so it doesn't count. Still, big ups to Ja'fari jurisprudence.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:32 AM
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||

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15244377

>


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:33 AM
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I'm texting back and forth with my mechanic, a guy who works on cars in his back yard. He's saying he couldn't find anything wrong, so no charge. I'm saying that he ought to be compensated for his time, and offered 2 hours at $30/hr, just off the top of my head. He's still declining.

How far am I supposed to push the issue?

|>


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:33 AM
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52: I agree right away when my mechanic says there's no charge. I assume he knows what he's doing, and that he'll get even with me on the next repair.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:36 AM
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52: don't. Then give him your business next time.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:37 AM
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Yep. He's (a) being honest and (b) building loyalty. Let him work his business plan.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:39 AM
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People are terribly cynical about marriage.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:44 AM
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And auto mechanics.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:45 AM
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Great! Sure, I'm happy to have loyalty being built with me.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:45 AM
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People are terribly cynical about mechanics, but good ones exist.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:45 AM
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People are terribly cynical about being pwned.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:46 AM
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50: I'm not sure it is all that sensible in a context where divorce is readily available for men but difficult for women.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:48 AM
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Wait, there are mechanics who only charge 30 an hour?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:53 AM
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There are Heebies who didn't want to offer up $120 because she's cheap.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:54 AM
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Wait, there are mechanics who only charge 30 an hour?

Cooter was the least realistic part of The Dukes of Hazzard.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:03 AM
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c'mon, her shorts weren't that short.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:06 AM
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I was still in my latency period when that show was on.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:07 AM
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59; Yes, there was that mechanic in Chicago who drove me to the hospital after I was mugged. Good guy, but he didn't do that well fixing my car. I suppose there's only so much that a mechanic can do with a 1975 Plymouth Valiant.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:09 AM
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About this long.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:09 AM
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69

The concept of dowery or mahr is a really interesting one for Muslims in the US. The man gets the divorce if he wants it, but he has to pay the deferred dowery. The woman cannot get a divorce unless the man concepts and then usually has to give up the dowery or mahr.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:10 AM
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Today's standard issue shorts are about the size of Daisy's.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:11 AM
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"dowry"?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:11 AM
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71:

Yes. stupid me.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:20 AM
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72: could be worse!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:22 AM
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69: "the man consents"? It's pick on will day!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:23 AM
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72: awesome!!


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:30 AM
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73: So Blume and Tweety have their Halloween costumes all set!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:34 AM
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61: Sure it is. It would just be even more sensible if gender parity on divorce was in play. Sort of like how multicultural societies like the Ottoman Empire were a sensible idea, but societies that are multicultural and democratic are even more sensible.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:34 AM
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I've decided that my white blob of a baby is going to be an Adipose for Halloween.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:37 AM
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(I sometimes wonder how much of world history would be different had The Mysterious Orient and The Ravenous Occident spent less time arguing about whose ancestors could beat up whom, and more time recognizing that hey, everyone's ancestors had some pretty neat ideas, and let's look at that.)


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:37 AM
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77: That holds true only if you can somehow maintain that the rules of marriage are independent of the gender disparity. And that the multicultural nature of the Ottoman Empire was somehow independent of it not being democratic. The Ottoman Empire was multicultural only because they conquered multiple cultures.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:45 AM
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52: Anthropologically, the gift economy preceeded the money economy, and it remains superior in many ways, especially for the giver. If your mechanic charged you a small amount, he'd have a negligible profit, you'd be even with him and would have no reason to go to him next time. Since he gave you a gift, you owe him your next business, which is likely to be more profitable for him.

(paraphrased from a recent discusion of Debt: the First 5000 Years, possibly on Crooked Timber. )


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:46 AM
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my white blob of a baby is going to be an Adipose for Halloween

Ha! We were just yesterday trying to convince some friends that their baby should be a Dalek.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:49 AM
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82: Yay! Well, I've already picked out your costume for you! You get to wear a kicky shirt dress! Tweety's short-shorts, on the other hand . . .


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:53 AM
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I've decided that my white blob of a baby is going to be an Adipose for Halloween.

White blob of baby should be a bottle of Newman's ranch salad dressing.



Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:53 AM
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80: That holds true only if you can somehow maintain that the rules of marriage are independent of the gender disparity.

I believe that not only can I so maintain, but also that it is possible to assess more- and less-sensible versions of marriage laws that contain fundamental elements we might find disagreeable.

The Ottoman Empire was multicultural only because they conquered multiple cultures.

Not true in the least. There are a fuck-ton of historical empires that conquered multiple cultures without becoming multicultural. The Ottomans or, say, the Achaemenid Persians were multicultural in ways the empires of the Diadochi just weren't, despite ruling equally diverse populations.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:56 AM
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86

85.1: When you make it easier for men to end a marriage than you do for women and you have a society were women are required to be attached somehow to a man, a temporary marriage is merely another component of gender disparity. It keeps them in a more precarious situation.

85.2: The Ottomans were, in their day, very good at running a diverse empire. But I don't see how that relates to the modern concept of a multicultural democracy. Outside of the force of empire, there was no way for the cultures to function together. It wasn't a pluralist political system. It was an empire that realized how to run things more efficiently by not dicking with people so much. There was never any notion that the other cultures were to be respected as cultures. Their whole army was based on kidnapping from those other cultures.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:06 AM
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86.1:

that is the beauty of mahr. You set the amount high so that it is too costly to leave her.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:10 AM
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The Jack Welch school of marriage.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:20 AM
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86.2: But I don't see how that relates to the modern concept of a multicultural democracy.

That would be why I'm pretty sure I said it only relates to the concept of multiculturalism, and I'm pretty sure I didn't say to the "modern" version thereof. The Ottomans were one (of a number of) Middle Eastern empires that hit on the idea of having specific institutions to cater to specific populations under their rule. (An idea to which modern "pluralistic" societies in the West are actually relative latecomers.) Ths concept made empire possible because it reduced reliance on "the force of" empire.

There was never any notion that the other cultures were to be respected as cultures.

Strictly-speaking, there was, actually. Or rather, other confessional traditions were to be respected as such (foundational in the Qur'an). Of course practices like devshirme complicate that picture -- multicultural is not the same as what moderns would accept as humane* -- but then the devshirme itself, which started as a form of enslavement by the conquered, developed into something way the hell more complicated than just "kidnapping." It was the establishment of an entire elite political class from a subordinate culture as part of the Sultans' bid to centralize authority.

(And OTOH, let's not us "moderns" be too quick to pat ourselves on the back, since we tolerate and often tacitly profit by institutions that will surely seem just as bizarre to our descendants -- ever wonder what posterity will make of the "guest worker," for instance?)


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:22 AM
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Of course practices like devshirme complicate that picture

That's one really big complication.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:23 AM
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86.1: a temporary marriage is merely another component of gender disparity.

I don't see how that's supposed to follow at all. The woman isn't required to enter into a temporary marriage, and if anything has more control over its ending and thereby the planning of her life than one entering a "permanent" marriage. Even given the gender disparities -- on which issue, frankly, laudable as their concern might be, Westerners talking about Islamic law often seem to be arguing about a cartoon version -- the arrangement would seem perfectly well-suited to an economy with large numbers of people who move relatively frequently over long distances for work and school. And therefore even more sensible and workable as an arrangement without gender disparity.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:30 AM
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90: It's complications within complications.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:30 AM
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My very limited understanding of basic Islamic law is that:
1. The man can end the marriage without wife's consent.
2. The woman cannot end the marriage without man's consent.
3. The woman gets a large deferred dowry or mahr if husband leaves her or dies.
4. Each person keeps what they have earned during the marriage.ie no sharing or equitable distribution of assets.
5. Wife is not required to "serve" husband.

These concepts and the agreements that get entered into are very interesting and cause all kinds of problems when couples divorce in the US.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:34 AM
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91: I suppose it does give her more control over the ending than a regular marriage. However, the fact that a woman's choice is between a temporary marriage and a regular marriage that she cannot exit at will but her husband can means that any choice the woman makes about marriage is contingent on being at a disadvantage.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:34 AM
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94: I suppose it does give her more control over the ending than a regular marriage. However . . . any choice the woman makes about marriage is contingent on being at a disadvantage.

No shit, Buckwheat! It's almost like "it is possible to assess more- and less-sensible versions of marriage laws that contain fundamental elements we might find disagreeable."

And like gender disparity would not be necessary to a temporary marriage arrangement, and would be even more sensible in contexts without such disparities. Right?


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:38 AM
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re: 83

Tweety's going as Amy Pond?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:39 AM
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95: I think the whole temporary marriage thing is a stupid way of dealing with what should be done with reasonable divorce laws.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:41 AM
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98

I was tempted to write a huge comment about how different the entire idea of "multiculturalism" was in the days before the nation state, but fuck it.

The Mexico City idea is great. According to the article, the divorce rate is 50% there. That means than half of the marrying population will have to deal with dividing up kids and assets based on rules they never thought about for a minute before tying the knot. At a minimum, this forces a conversation about how to divide up assets and kids instead of just entering into a contract with a whole bunch of default terms that no one thinks about because the contract signing ceremony is wrapped up in true true love.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:43 AM
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It's interesting that the response to the high divorce rate in Mexico City was "temporary marriage", while the response in a few U.S. states was "covenant marriage". Does anybody know how that "covenant marriage" thing is working out?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:47 AM
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97: And I think it's foolish to be that sanguine about divorce, no matter how "reasonable" the laws surrounding it, if there are sensible options at hand for preventing or pre-empting.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:52 AM
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99: Well, if there's one thing the American religious right is known for, it's well-thought-out social policies.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 8:56 AM
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Yes, 97 is wrong. You'll always have problems when marriages end, but the more decisions you can front load, the less awful the divorce process. it's why LLC agreements are so long.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:01 AM
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100: As I stated the first comment, I don't think temporary marriage will do much at all to slow divorce.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:01 AM
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103: That doesn't seem to me to be what 1 says at all, actually. But at any rate I wouldn't know what you were basing either opinion on. Is your guess about economic disparity any better thought-through than your guesses about gender disparity were?


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:14 AM
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105

I'm all about think through disparities properly.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:16 AM
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51: Clare Hollingsworth's editor, supposedly, didn't believe her and told her over the (then unimaginably, private-jet expensive) international phone that it was all deception and the tanks were wooden dummies. She stuck the receiver out of the window so the newsroom could hear them grinding and revving by...


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:19 AM
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105: Oh, me too. I'm like, Mister Disparities.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:21 AM
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108

My contention is that for marriage law in a society with broad inequalities (whether based on gender or on gender and wealth), the disadvantaged group is likely to be hurt by anything that makes a social contract more contingent. The ideal of a marriage as a permanent bond, regardless of how unempirical it is as an idea, provides a great deal of leverage for the economically or politically weaker party in a marriage. If every marriage becomes a contract to be negotiated, I would expect that economic outcomes for women would decline because the "default*" would no longer be a split 50/50 on divorce.

*I realize pre-nups have already altered this somewhat.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:26 AM
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That is, outcomes for women would decline to the extent that women have less economic power than men. The more equal society becomes, the less of a problem this is.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:28 AM
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That's not an insane point, but it doesn't have much to do with modern society or (most likely) the situation in Mexico, where you would have a range of civil law contracts to choose from, not an endless choice. At this point in time the problems of not thinking through sane exit strategies is (IMO) much more serious than the need for a paternalistic enforcement of default rules. And one benefit to even less economically empowered women would be the ability to exit the marriage under clear rules and a sense of one's options.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:38 AM
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In other words, if you're at a 50% divorce rate in a world where women work, you're probably not in a world where you need a paternalistic uniform marriage contract with no option to contract around it.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:40 AM
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108: My contention is that for marriage law in a society with broad inequalities (whether based on gender or on gender and wealth), the disadvantaged group is likely to be hurt by anything that makes a social contract more contingent.

I'm afraid don't see how this fits either with your previously stated views on divorce or indeed with any part of the rise of women's liberation as a force in Western societies, a fairly integral part of which has been the making of the social contract of marriage more contingent via no-fault divorce.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:42 AM
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(111 seems right to me.)


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:43 AM
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I'm like, Mister Disparities.

Mista Disparities, Mista Bob Disparities.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:50 AM
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No-fault divorce doesn't make it possible for somebody to sign a one-sided contract at 21 and get divorced without an equitable distribution of whatever assets are in the marriage at 28.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:51 AM
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Well, right, and it also doesn't tell you what an "equitable distribution" is or what situation you'd realistically be in if the marriage ends.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 9:53 AM
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115: And where are "one-sided contract" and "without an equitable distribution" coming from, exactly? Are you actually conflating the concept of temporary marriage with what you think Ja'fari jurisprudence is? Please tell me that's not it.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:00 AM
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I'd thought we'd switched off Ja'fari jurisprudence.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:02 AM
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114: My Disparities indeed make more niggaz bleed, so swift, nekkid eye couldn't record the speed.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:03 AM
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118: So did I. So again, where are "one-sided contract" and "without an equitable distribution" coming from, exactly?


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:03 AM
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My point on Shia marriage was that the different requirements for divorce by gender create a disparity so large that other issues don't matter. I think I was very clear on that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:04 AM
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My point on Shia marriage was that the different requirements for divorce by gender create a disparity so large that other issues don't matter.

Which I think is quite wrong, as it happens, but I continue to be curious about the answer to the question in 117.1 and 120.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:07 AM
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120: My expectations as to one-sided contracts and distribution at the dissolution of a marriage stem from what I read about how pre-nups are used in the modern American context. That is, to protect the assets of the wealthier party. Which is perfectly understandable, but I'm not in the habit of helping wealthier people preserve assets. Maybe I should reconsider that as it probably pays better.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:09 AM
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On the Shia marriage point, I don't think it's a very useful analogy to whatever is or isn't being done in Mexico City -- if you have a regime in which divorce is religiously-bounded an noncontractual, with a set of rules designed for a premodern agrarian world, you're just in a fundamentally different marriage regime than modern western law.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:10 AM
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123: Okay, but that seems like question-begging to me. Why is a pre-nup the relevant analogy?


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:13 AM
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Well, there are huge gains to a discussion about the terms of separation that go well beyond some stereotype of a rich old guy and young hot girl.

Periodic renegotiation is an effective way to deal with changing interests in any long term relationship -- if you reach a point where you decide that one party will stop working and stay home with the kids, that may call for a different division than you would have with both parties working. Or treating different assets differently. Peoples lives are complicated, much more so than the default terms of a marriage contract would permit.

In general, anything that gets people thinking abouttheir marriage as a series of ongoing choices, and let's them come together to discuss it's terms and how things might work upon the marriage ending, is a good thing.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:15 AM
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126 to 123.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:16 AM
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(I mean, further to 125, I can see people being tempted to try to use it as an entry strategy to a more permanent marriage, if they were the sort of individual who, while not a gold-digger, is nevertheless not messing with any broke individuals. OTOH I don't see why it wouldn't apply to, say, a class of fairly mobile urban professionals who tend to cycle through jobs and school in a variety of locales, of the type that often posts to this blog for example. Why is one model supposed to be more likely than the other?)


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:17 AM
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Orson Scott Card had this in one of his books - a society where term marriage was the only option, and renewing it every time was seen as a sign of above-average mutual attachment. Of course, given what he's made of himself since...


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:19 AM
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129: Well, a stopped Card can still be right twice a day.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:21 AM
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Why is one model supposed to be more likely than the other?

I have no good guess as to which is more likely. However, the class of fairly mobile urban professionals has (or is more likely to have) a whole host of resources to employ in handling their personal relationships. And they are less likely to feel social pressure to marry in order to cohabitate. They are less likely to need to be married to get health insurance.

The young, relatively poor couple getting married at 20 is unlikely to have the life experience necessary to think things through properly and the default marriage does not present them with the option to sign away protections.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:23 AM
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Right, but it does allow them to renegotiate after 2 or more years without the devastating consequences of divorce under unclear terms. For couples getting married at 19 or 20, particularly where neither one is well off at the time, that's a powerful and important thing. I think you are letting a stereotype about the prenup run away with you.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 10:26 AM
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Aren't the huge problems associated with divorce either because of children and/or a house? How would a temporary marriage fix this?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:13 AM
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By allowing re-contracting on a periodic basis, perhaps before the decision to have kids or buy the house is made. I.e., instead of just defaulting into "we are married, so who gets the house will be determined by laws of State X of which we are totally unaware" you might actually have to have a conversation about who has the house. Or, if there are kids, about what kind of custody arrangement would be appropriate in the case of a split. I presume that the temporary marriage contracts would not allow anyone to contract out of providing child support.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:21 AM
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The beauty about a good prenup process is that it forces both of them to think about issues and not just assume that they both have the same expectations for the future.

If you have a two year marriage, then a house purchase would raise some issues about what happens after the marriage ends.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:24 AM
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darn. pwned by halford.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:24 AM
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Pre-nups, as well as divorce proceedings, are expensive, yo. Prohibitively so, for many.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:33 AM
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Also true, which is why a range of default marriage options (which is what Mexico City is doing) is better for a number of reasons than just allowing people to pay lawyers to draft prenups.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:35 AM
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I mean, sorry, what am I saying. People should totally pay lawyers to draft prenups. Sorry Will.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:35 AM
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Just FYI though, I checked and LegalZoom.com will put together a prenup for you for about $800. Which may make sense for a lot of folks. No idea about how the LegalZoom prenups have held up in Court. Sorry again Will.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:41 AM
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138: The article just says, "The contracts would include provisions on how children and property would be handled if the couple splits." It says nothing about what those provisions would be and I had assumed they were being negotiated by the couple.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:41 AM
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134: This is an available option today. The fact that too few people avail themseves of it suggests that they don't want it.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:42 AM
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A prenup should not be a standard document. People need to have discussions about the terms so that they understand the options. Too often, people say "just whatever is standard."


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:44 AM
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142: It may also suggest that they don't know about it.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:45 AM
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This is an available option today. The fact that too few people avail themseves of it suggests that they don't want it.

You cannot contract away child support. In fact, even if you give someone the equity in the house in exchange for not paying child support, they can still go to court and get child support.



Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:45 AM
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142 -- There are big problems with prenups (mostly, having to do with stigma, but also, as Parsimon says, having to do with cost and with the ability to select some pre-defined options) that can be alleviated by a less uniform marriage regime. Which is why, go Mexico City.

141 -- Civil Law countries have very different contract and family law regimes than common law countries -- almost by definition, the range of available marriage contracts will be from a menu of options made available by the state, most likely with the couples having the ability to negotiate over certain terms (i.e., percentage of ongoing spousal support, within a range) but not the form of the contract.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:46 AM
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Good lord, what is the point of getting married at all, again? It begins (ha) to sound like not much more than a contractual relationship, which I at least run screaming from in matters of love.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:47 AM
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Good lord, what is the point of getting married at all, again?

Sex without eternal damnation.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:49 AM
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It is worse if you arent married. There arent very good rules for dividing up jointly owned property. You still have to pay child support. And, there is no spousal support for the person who gave up career to raise the child.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:50 AM
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the point of getting married

You invite enough people and you might end up with a full set of matching dishes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:53 AM
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It begins (ha) to sound like not much more than a contractual relationship

Of course, it's way more than a contractual relationship, but when it comes time to get a divorce it is a almost purely a contractual relationship, and you didn't set (and are most likely completely unaware of) the terms of the contract.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:53 AM
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147: A wedding, aside from bowling and skating, is pretty much the only way to have a socially sanctioned reason for rented shoes. That only men can rent the shoes goes to my gender disparity point.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:55 AM
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It begins (ha) to sound like not much more than a contractual relationship, which I at least run screaming from in matters of love.

The contractual relationship isn't so much about dealing with the love end of things (though, would that such a thing were enforceable: "Look, honey, section IV, paragraph 13.1 -- you are required to provide empathy and encouragement in anticipation of, during, and for a reasonable period following all encounters with my parents..."). The contract part comes in rather handy with respect to the distribution of assets in the event the love thing doesn't work out. But for the contractual aspect of a marital relationship, UNG might not have had a claim to much at all of the marital estate. And while there may at the time have been a certain appeal to imagining a scenario in which his sorry ass was kicked penniless to the curb, the truth of the matter is that such a thing would not have been equitable.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:57 AM
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A commitment is not a prediction that we will always feel about each other as we do today. A commitment is an acknowledgement that some things last and a game consent to give it a go.

"Marriage is a beautiful mistake which two people make together." --Madame Colet Trouble in Paradise


Posted by: President Overly Earnest | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 11:58 AM
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The pact that we made was the ordinary pact
of men & women in those days

I don't know who we thought we were
that our personalities
could resist the failures of the race


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:02 PM
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Marriage a big deal with regards to death benefits in govt. jobs. If I die in the line of duty my spouse gets a monthly check of 38 percent of my salary. After we retire she still gets 65 percent of my retirement after I die.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:04 PM
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And the plot for the noir thriller/mystery writes itself.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:05 PM
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156: What if you are in the line of duty and she kills you?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:06 PM
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A commitment is not a prediction that we will always feel about each other as we do today. A commitment is an acknowledgement that some things last and a game consent to give it a go.

OK. Why not talk about how you'll handle the money and kids in case things work out, and know that ahead of time?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:07 PM
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Despite or because of not being able to enter into a marriage or legal co-parenting agreement applicable to my current life, I'm appreciating seeing others' takes on all this. (And who knew that Shi'i jurisprudence was what it took to get Moby going? I'd have brought it up years ago!)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:07 PM
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don't


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:08 PM
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160: I'm dealing with a bunch of reviewers and that is probably more likely to account for my mood than Shi'i law.

However, I do dislike arguments that involve saying "this aspect of a temporally and culturally different society was great so I'm going to discuss it isolation to condemn our present society."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:12 PM
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I do dislike arguments that involve saying "this aspect of a temporally and culturally different society was great so I'm going to discuss it isolation to condemn our present society."

amen.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:14 PM
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159: There have been various proposals to require people getting married to sit down and talk about that kind of stuff, haven't there? You way would be different because you want them to talk about what happens if the marriage goes boom and the typical reformer wants them to talk about that stuff so that the marriage doesn't go boom.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:17 PM
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162: I'm not sure I'll have enough room on the I HEART MOBY HICK sampler I'm embroidering to include that quote, but I'll try. Or I would if I were telling the truth about the sampler. Like band names, I prefer my embroidery to be imaginary.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:18 PM
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159 -- I don't practice in this area, at all. But it certainly strikes me that a 26 year old groom might have pretty different feelings about his relationship to his as yet unborn children than the 35 year old father of a 5 year old. Just as a 26 year old bride might not have the same objection to her intended spending a bunch of unsupervised time with her as yet unborn child, as she might have after having watched her 35 year old soon to be ex-husband interacting with their 5 year old.

Obviously vice versa, gender roles reversed.

That is, I can see that a prenup is a fine exercise wrt pre-existing, or foreseeable, wealth disparities, but I don't see how the important questions with respect to parenting can really be answered. And if an agreement is made, even though it might not be totally binding, surely it becomes leverage as the split is negotiated/litigated.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:20 PM
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164 -- I think, personally, that talking about what happens if things don't work out is an important part of making things work out.

But even if that's not true, the Mexico City proposal still making the end of marriage much more tolerable, and the division of assets more intentional, in a society where the norm is that 50% of marriages end in divorce.

And the specific proposal under consideration is, in essence, a provision for a mandatory periodic reassessment of the marriage contract. In a place with a high divorce rate, or a lot of folks getting married early, that's a good thing.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:21 PM
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I don't practice in this area, at all. But it certainly strikes me that a 26 year old groom might have pretty different feelings about his relationship to his as yet unborn children than the 35 year old father of a 5 year old. Just as a 26 year old bride might not have the same objection to her intended spending a bunch of unsupervised time with her as yet unborn child, as she might have after having watched her 35 year old soon to be ex-husband interacting with their 5 year old.

Right. Which is why the periodic marriage term thing is a good idea.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:23 PM
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168 -- I'd rather the prenup expired.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:25 PM
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You cant put custody or visitation provisions in a prenup. They are meaningless.

As for your comments, you often see people objecting to leaving the kids with the exspouse unsupervised two months after they used to leave the kids with the then-spouse unsupervised. Suddenly, it is a problem.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:25 PM
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167: I had wondered about the statistics in the article. It says, "Around half of Mexico City marriages end in divorce, usually in the first two years." I'm wondering what they mean by "usually" and if the statistics are accurate. I guess I've always thought the U.S. was as divorce-prone as it gets. If "usually" means more often than not, they are talking 25% of all marriages in Mexico city ending within two years.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:27 PM
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(I'm going to trial, next month, employee side, on a non-compete. So, you know, not feeling finality of contract . . .)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:27 PM
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The US is entirely too pro-employer.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:30 PM
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173: Until the revolution, we have to call them "job creators".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:31 PM
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Suddenly, it is a problem.

I'm sure there's tons of bad faith, but one can certainly construct a scenario where there isn't bad faith.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:31 PM
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Do pre-nups typically expire? I'd heard that in California after so many years, it all goes to community property. However, I read that in reference to some star getting a divorce and not in a legal journal or anything.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:36 PM
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It says, "Around half of Mexico City marriages end in divorce, usually in the first two years."

At a guess, this means that people get married young (too young).


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:39 PM
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171 -- One wonders about stats like that. How likely is a couple married in their hometown to get divorced in MC, where they moved for work? How likely is it for one member of a separating couple to move to MC, and, assuming a mandatory period, file there?

It is surely easier to undo a shotgun wedding out of range.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:42 PM
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I have, frankly, never understood the youngish friends of mine who have, years ago now, gotten married (impulsively, it seemed) at age 23, in a scenario in which no one was the least bit surprised that they were divorced 2 years later.

That wasn't about supporting intended children or jointly held property: they just thought it was awesome to declare that this was how much they loved one another. Something like that.

I don't know what the demographic or income situation is in Mexico City, but there are surely populations among whom either a similar perspective obtains, or else it's simply difficult or unthinkable to be unmarried past one's mid-20s.

I've lost track of my point, however.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:47 PM
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178: The Reno-effect. Except, Mexico City is vastly more populous relative to Mexico than Nevada was relative to the rest of the U.S. during the 50s.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:48 PM
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179: I think you're considering a law that no one under 25 or so can get married.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:49 PM
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Do pre-nups typically expire? I'd heard that in California after so many years, it all goes to community property.

Not my area, at all (I am a customer, not a service provider in this zone of the law) but I believe that this is not the case. I think you could draft one with an expiring term if you wanted to.

Lots of people get divorced without getting married "too young" and lots of "too young" people stick together.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:51 PM
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181: How extreme. Maybe a law that no couple that hasn't already cohabitated for, um, one year? Two? Can get married.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:56 PM
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Lots of people get divorced without getting married "too young"

Well, you can only protect people from their own stupidity for so long.

lots of "too young" people stick together.

Those people will just have to wait a little longer to get married which will make it all the sweeter.



Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:59 PM
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183 -- bleh. How about the state giving people more options, instead of doubling down on controlling their lives?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 12:59 PM
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184 -- that better not be you, parsi.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:00 PM
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There's been a great deal of posting unsigned, non-spammy comments lately. I don't know why.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:02 PM
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183: What? I was just reaching the logical conclusion of your argument!

I thought you would support the idea, even if I didn't!

The cohabiting idea is ok, except for the existence of religious people that frown at sex outside of marriage.

But, I'm thinking those people won't like the temporary marriage idea either.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:03 PM
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I heard that Cortez shot a man in Tenochtitlan just to watch him die.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:04 PM
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Halford, I'm joking! I do think people should wait a bit longer in some cases before getting married -- that's the point of a long engagement, I thought -- but I sure as hell wouldn't try to legislate that. Are you kidding?

I favor the Mexico City proposal, but if it's just supposed to be an answer to marriages that were unwise in the first place (i.e. end quickly in divorce), well, duh, maybe hold off on the marriage in the first place. Perhaps we can view the 2-year marriage contract as a 2-year engagement. That works for me.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:05 PM
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184 was me. Want to make something of it, halford?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:05 PM
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Why not have a state-administered marriage test, evaluating compatibility? Perhaps, given statistical evidence, we could even prohibit people from certain groups from marrying one another, given their increased likelihood of divorce? Surely, people should be required to pass such a test before having children. Or voting.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:06 PM
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Oh -- dunno who the unsigned comments are from. Not me.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:06 PM
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184 -- if it was you, you are a passive-aggressive dick. But you've proven that countless times previously.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:07 PM
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A more relevant Reno song.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:07 PM
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182: Something happens after the 10-year mark in CA marriage law. I don't remember! (Googles.) Aha! All right, here is Gigi Grazer coining the term "getting Cruised" for getting dumped at the 10-year mark (as Tom did to Nicole). Says Gigi: ""In California, after the 10-year mark, the alimony can be lifelong, so the men get scared of losing their money," explains Gigi, who had been with Brian for 16 years and was three months away from their tenth wedding anniversary when he terminated the marriage--his third."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:07 PM
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Man, I'm lagging behind in reading this thread.

Is 192 to 190? Honestly, Rob, I don't endorse anything remotely like that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:09 PM
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196 -- that's the default rule in the absence of a prenup. Spousal support gets based on the length of the marriage, subject to a bunch of default rules that no one (except for celebrities or the very rich) know about.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:09 PM
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196: I was trying to pretend I hear it in a different context but that is what I was thinking of.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:09 PM
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No, sorry, to peep in 191.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:10 PM
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193: I already admitted to 184, ok?

No need to fight!

It was just peep failing at being funny. Again!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:10 PM
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199: "hear" s/b "heard". I blame some disparity.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:11 PM
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Sorry, I didn't mean to derail the thread. I have a personal beef with peep and find his particular "I will pretend to be a little wuss so I can say whatever dickish comments I want" style extremely grating. I am probably oversensitive to being annoyed by that particular move. But that shouldn't derail the rest of the blog.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:25 PM
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I'm perhaps oversensitive to people who are sensitive to people pretending to be a wuss, but I think we call all agree that thinking about 18 year-old Mexicans is a good way to pass the afternoon.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:30 PM
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203: I have a personal beef with peep

Oh! I thought you were over that. I was just trying to have a little fun on a boring Monday afternoon. I won't engage with you further.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:31 PM
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I can't tell if 205 is brilliant or not.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:32 PM
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Fair enough, and likewise.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:33 PM
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Great! Now who get's the alimony?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:37 PM
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205 was serious, wasn't it?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:40 PM
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We should have a thread about jokes and how it can be hard to tell when someone is trying to be funny.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:41 PM
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I had no idea peep was ever serious. Or is peep not serious, and halford's crazed from too many antelope livers?

On reflection, I may have answered my own question.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:45 PM
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205, 207: I divorce you. I divorce you. I divorce you.

On preview, mega-pwned by 208.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:49 PM
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No, I'm undoubtedly crazed, but we have a beef from way back. No worries or effects on others, sorry to let it shine through.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:50 PM
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Isn't the liver the best part of the antelope? The rest of it would be dry, I'd think. Unless you mixed it with some bacon or something.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:52 PM
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Hey, antelope liver, corn nuts, cocaine: anything good'll make you crazed if you overdo it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:53 PM
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Strangely, I 100% honestly had some antelope meat (not liver) last night, at this place. Maybe that's the problem.


Posted by: Robert Halford |
Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:54 PM
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this place, that should be.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:54 PM
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at this place

Your link is broken, but I'm about 99% sure I know what place you mean, and that place rules.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:55 PM
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No, I'm undoubtedly crazed, but we have a beef from way back.

I hope it's grass-fed, at least.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:55 PM
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Was it dry?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:55 PM
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No, no that's a different place, which also rules.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:56 PM
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Nope, I was wrong. I'm sure the place you went is fine, too.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:56 PM
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The antelope meat was not dry, and it was delicious. Probably non-paleo elements in the sauce, though. I actually wanted to order something else but felt I had to live my principles.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 1:57 PM
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I had assumed Rob was talking about Animal.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:06 PM
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He clearly knows what he's getting into, so I guess it's okay Halford had an antelope.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:07 PM
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I was thinking this place.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:15 PM
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I do not understand why 184 is dickish.

Maybe I am just too used to people screaming at me and telling me I am wrong. (judges/lawyers/women...)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:16 PM
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Elk meat is pretty good.

[P]eople screaming at me and telling me I am wrong. (judges/lawyers/women...)

I hear you, Tiger, but Gloria Allred has a place in the ecosystem because America's scorned bimbos and trollops need representation, too.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:21 PM
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Gloria Allred has a place in the ecosystem because America's scorned bimbos and trollops need representation, too.

Is Halford Allred, a bimbo, or a trollop?



Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:23 PM
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A lady never asks and a gentleman never tells.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:26 PM
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I actually also have a personal beef with Gloria Allred! The circle of life completes itself.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:26 PM
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I've never seen Gloria Allred and peep in the same place at the same time.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:28 PM
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231: Please tell us that she speared the last antelope medallion off the platter, because I like that image.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:29 PM
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Also, I realized a few months back that the only personal beefs I have in the world originated here. (Would you like to hear more about me? I'm fascinating!) That was around the time that I stopped snorting powdered antelope livers before going online.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:30 PM
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Halford: how can you remember all of these grudges!?!?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:31 PM
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I only bear grudges against a 3 lawyers and one innocuous-seeming Unfogged commenter. And an old landlady. And against bread, rice and quinoa.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:34 PM
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But not against kasha, right?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:35 PM
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Who keeps the Unfogged friends v. enemies chart?

It would be very helpful for me to know when people are joking with each other and when people are intentionally being mean.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:35 PM
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I have beefs you people will never know.

(Fades spookily back into the mist.)


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:36 PM
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And against bread, rice and quinoa.

One of those has sentimental value for me.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:37 PM
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236:

But no Unfogged commenters who are lawyers? Whew!

I'm ok with grudges against Allred and Nancy Grace.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:38 PM
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Gluten-free crackers are really good.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:39 PM
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I think I have more crushes than grudges.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:44 PM
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There's no half plus seven rule on grudges, is there? Or is it unseemly to carry on a grudge against a kid?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:45 PM
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Sometimes a grudge is the only possible response to a kid.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:49 PM
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We should have a double blind day where everyone comments under the pseudonym/in the style of someone against whom they hold a grudge. That would be fun!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:49 PM
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I do think people should wait a bit longer in some cases before getting married -- that's the point of a long engagement, I thought

There is nothing I so abominate for young people as a long engagement.


Posted by: Opinionated Mrs. Musgrove | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:50 PM
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Half plus seven came up on a teen drama the other day and Rory asked, incredulously, if it is really a rule. I can't help but wonder if such a rule, or some variation thereon, should be extended to things like years in school or gross annual earnings.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:54 PM
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I think I have more crutches than grinches.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:54 PM
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246: and remarably easy fr you.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:58 PM
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+o


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:58 PM
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Ahaha. The other error wasn't intentional.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:58 PM
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but really, my beefs


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 2:59 PM
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Good job.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:02 PM
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I like everyone here, which is clear evidence of my moral and spiritual superiority. I don't love everybody here, because that would be vulgar.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:06 PM
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I can't help but wonder if such a rule, or some variation thereon, should be extended to things like years in school or gross annual earnings.

Just like the larger-scale forms of resource extraction, any rule gets bent to allow for gold-diging.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:06 PM
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Jesus loves every Unfogged commenter.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:08 PM
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257: You just like to bring that up because you know that he loves you a little bit more than the rest of us.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:09 PM
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That isn't the only reason.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:14 PM
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I still don't like DS, but have totally made up with Halford.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:20 PM
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We should have a double blind day where everyone comments under the pseudonym/in the style of someone against whom they hold a grudge.

A time when it would be better to be disliked than ignored.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:26 PM
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253 -- beeves. Good enough for God and King James, it's good enough for you.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:27 PM
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Just as a matter of interest, if I marry an 18 year old Mexican on a two year deal, does she qualify for a green card?


Posted by: jim | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 3:59 PM
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I just want to be sure that no two commenters are having an impersonal beef. That would be really sad.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 4:07 PM
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In light of the thread above, I apologize for my stupidity, apologize to peep, and will now get offline.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 4:11 PM
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I like everyone except Cyrus and I only dislike him because his comments to me have always been incredibly rude. I think everyone is okay with me except Halford might think I'm a troll because I like The China Study. Although maybe I have more enemies than I know of after that patent discussion...


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 4:12 PM
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No, no, I was kidding about that!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 4:17 PM
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Phew! I'm in the clear. And tonight I'm having Cesar salad with salmon and no carbs, so we're good!


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 4:19 PM
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How can anybody not like DS? You're making shit up, is what I think.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 5:28 PM
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And tonight I'm having Cesar salad with salmon and no carbs, so we're good!

No grapes either, I hope.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 5:41 PM
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Back to the original post -- what does a two year marriage actually do for you? I doubt it does anything serious in terms of rights to assets -- for a time length like that, you'd want the rule to be that you leave with the same stuff you brought. Short of that, what else is there? Hospitals treat you like next of kin?

I can see a function for this in a world where it was really socially uncomfortable to cohabit, but we don't live in that world. What is it for?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 5:49 PM
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What's wrong with grapes?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 5:49 PM
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Grapes don't last two years, so they're not really a marital asset.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 5:52 PM
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271: I assume it has to do with raising children through the baby stage? An unplanned pregnancy and wanting to commit to the first couple years?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:01 PM
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274 to 272.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:03 PM
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||

I was looking at the employment opportunities page for a non-profit where I had previously applied for a job. They've changed their application process and now require that you fill out an application as well. Two things I hate:

1.) You have to provide details on every month you've been out of work since leaving school (high school or college) and the reason why.

2.) They ask for a list of extracurricular activities and honors, but they want you to omit any which "reflects your race, color, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status or disabilities." So, if you ran your college's wheelchair marathon club, you can't put that down?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:30 PM
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|>


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:30 PM
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271:

There are other aspects to marriage that don't have anything to do with assets (or, for that matter with sex).

Here's a case:

I have made a two year marriage with A. On day 729 of the marriage, she gets hit by a car crossing the street. The hospital calls me as next of kin and I authorize treatment. But I can't get home until day 731. The hospital then turns me away as unrelated?

There are interesting parallels with gay marriage/civil partnerships.

Asset distribution is not the heart of the contract. Gay partners have discovered that, with some ingenuity on the part of their lawyers, they can construct near simulacra of marriage.

It's the non-asset piece that's difficult.


Posted by: jim | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 6:49 PM
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||

This is why you eat their livers.

|>


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:37 PM
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I think I've told the story here about almost biking into a bear while riding off-road in Whistler, BC. It happened just like that. Except in a cedar forest in the Canadian Rockies and I didn't actually hit the bear. Still.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:43 PM
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And that is why you should always wear a bike helmet.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:43 PM
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That vid made me think of the cowgirl grizzly story I linked a while back. One of you folks has better connections than you've let on: she'll be on Letterman tomorrow night.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:48 PM
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I'm surprised that "HOLY COW!" is an Afrikaner expression.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:49 PM
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Lot of immigrants from the subcontinent, Ned.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:53 PM
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That looked like it was premeditated on the part the antelope.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-10-11 7:56 PM
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I got married at 25. I tell people it was on a whim, which is a bit flippant, but it was on short acquaintance. Almost 16 years and 4 children later we seem to be doing all right. Most people overthink this stuff!


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 12:27 AM
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OMG you guys, unfoggetarian: "pause endlessly, then go in" (9) has totally made out with halford!!!


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 5:38 AM
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286:
Ha, we were both 20 and are on our 15th year but only two kids you earth killer.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 5:43 AM
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145

You cannot contract away child support. In fact, even if you give someone the equity in the house in exchange for not paying child support, they can still go to court and get child support.

Is this really true? Assuming of course that the other party remains fully capable of supporting the child by themself. Would an agreement to reimburse you for any child support you are ordered to pay be unenforceable?


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:08 AM
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Most people overthink this stuff!

Some people are working hard to suppress misgivings.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:12 AM
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Denial so much easier than supressing misgivings.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:17 AM
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Supressing verbs is good.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:18 AM
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Supressing verbs is good


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:19 AM
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287: And with me. Guess I was a little too kinky, sorry about that U:PETGI.

290: Uhhhh, you okay?


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:22 AM
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Oh, I'm fine. I was thinking of some friends who are really trying hard to convince themselves get married, and doing all sorts of mental somersaults along the way.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:23 AM
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Insist they sign a pre-nup and get married next week.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:32 AM
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If you cause them to integrate, they might name first derivative after you.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:44 AM
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It's cheaper just to preen up. You know, really show off that engagement wing.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 7:58 AM
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Diamonds are a gull's best friend.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:05 AM
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The idea of a premade template for legally and socially acceptable temporary marriage seems like a good idea to me. Honestly, I'd probably go for it with my girlfriend right now. I'd like all aspects of marriage with her - having a ceremony to celebrate our relationship, co-ownership of property being the default, tax breaks and power of attorney and spousal privilege and all that - except for the whole "to death or messy painful divorce do you part" thing.

However, I don't know what she'd say to that, for what it's worth.


Posted by: Chester A. Arthur | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:14 AM
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Unless you have kids or very disparate incomes, the tax breaks don't matter.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:19 AM
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Different tax treatment, that's an effect I wasn't thinking about above. But if you're both employed, it's probably going to hurt more than it helps: marriage is a tax advantage for one-earner couples, and a disadvantage for two-earner couples.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:20 AM
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Also, the divorce gets messy as soon as you have joint ownership of anything you're not willing to walk away from, and really messy as soon as there's kids. I don't think the term-limited nature is going to make the divorce neater in any way other than making it less surprising.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:22 AM
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With a term-limited marriage, each member of the couple could get a set of stickers (say six or 10, but not more) to put on the things they like most and once the sticker is there, the item is yours should the marriage end. Cars, electronics, jewelry, and real estate excluded.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:29 AM
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And pets. You need to tattoo the dog if you want the mark to stay.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:33 AM
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It seems like parsimon's "what is the point of getting married at all?" needs a more intelligent answer before ideas like temporary marriage can even really be evaluated. Marriage is a weird thing in a secular society where both divorce and cohabitation are common. It does provide a bundle of useful rights, but that seems to be mostly a historical contigency, and if someone were planning things rationally today obviously it wouldn't look quite the same. Apart from satisfying some basically historical social expectations, what are we really trying to accomplish, when we marry?

If it's just supposed to confer some set of rights and obligations (which is of course arguably not all that marriage is supposed to do), then temporary marriages don't really seem to help anything. What you want is some easy way to opt into and later opt out of those rights and obligations. I suppose you could make some behavioral economics-type argument that forcing people repeatedly to affirmatively opt-into the bundle of rights might be better than allowing them to just continue on autopilot perpetually--maybe that default would get a lot of people out of unhappy relationships sooner than the current default, where people must take the initiative to end things on their own. But I'd need to see some evidence for that.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:34 AM
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I think the beneficial thing would not so much be the option to go term or permanent, but the shift in social expectations such that regardless of how permanent an attachment a couple feels, it's the normal thing to go with a term marriage and know that there will be set points of reevaluation of the partnership. Permanent marriage should be seen as an admirable but risky leap of faith.

"Never, never doubt that we'll re-up in five years, and in ten, and fifteen, and twenty, and..."
(swoon) "Oh, Bevis!"

Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:40 AM
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Permanent marriage should be seen as an admirable but risky leap of faith.

Absurd!


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:43 AM
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Permanent marriage should be seen as an admirable but risky leap of faith.

Why not just put marriage in that role, and let others cohabitate?

Or, conversely: if divorce is as easy as it is now, which presumably it would be, and the consequences of divorce are the same whether you're ending a temporary marriage or a "permanent" marriage, then why would permanent marriage be viewed as a risky leap of faith?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:44 AM
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if divorce is as easy as it is now

Easy? Not sure that I would agree with that statement.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:48 AM
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310: O.K., but I still think urple is right to question what the difference between a permanent and temporary marriage is if both operate with the same divorce law. Couples without property or kids or a desire to see each other dead can have a fairly easy divorce now. If the couple has any of those things, I don't see how an automatic ending after a set number of years is going to stop one or both from starting a big legal battle.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 8:55 AM
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Because we need something in between cohabitation and marriage on the permanency continuum. Cohabitation, since it can end at any point, is unattractive to the committed, but marriage, being permanent-until-terminated, too often cannot notionally end other than in a "tragedy."

The benefit when they blow up would be that to the extent that there is automatic inclusion (by the very nature of its in-between-ness, as well as by social norms and possibly by accompanying administrative procedures) of provisions settling child/property issues beforehand, peaceful termination could be much commoner.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:03 AM
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Make that "cohabitation, since it may end easily by separation at any point..."


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:04 AM
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Except that cohabition isn't ended easily if the couple share kids or property.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:06 AM
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Though I suppose cohabitation is easier to end if the only source of conflict is a strong desire to hurt the other person.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:07 AM
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Except that cohabition isn't ended easily if the couple share kids or property.

Or want to see one another dead, per the above.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:09 AM
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Except that cohabition isn't ended easily if the couple share kids or property.

Quite true. To attempt to be clearer, I think it's not so much the "facts at issue" (o tempora! o lawyers!) that make the difference as the inherent nature of the partnership - at-will versus written down indefinitely at city hall - which is bound heavily influences what people see themselves as getting into.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:10 AM
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I sort of like the idea of term-limited marriages from which no-fault divorces are not allowed. We're committing for 5 (or 7 or 10 years, whatever), and unless there's violence or other abuse, you're stuck with me for that long. (Obivously the state couldn't require the married couple to cohabitate if things really weren't working out, but it could require that divorce proceedings wait until the end of the term.) It would be especially nice if couples could choose in advance what constitutes "cause" for divorce (although I'd probably want abuse to be included and unwaivable). Some couples would include infidelity, others wouldn't. Etc.

I'm not sure we should allow such a thing to have a term longer than 10 years, though.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:10 AM
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bound to influence


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:10 AM
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provisions settling child/property issues beforehand

Well, there's law that does that for marriages now -- it's a set of defaults that doesn't fit every marriage well, but provisions like that exist.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:12 AM
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It would be especially nice if couples could choose in advance what constitutes "cause" for divorce

If those are public, since marriages are publicly recorded, I'm going to start a blog called "Til 'X' Do Us Part" listing the best self-selected grounds for divorce.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:14 AM
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Yeah, I'd better not try to comment on what should be changed wrt defaults/customizability of separation arrangements. Really I think that term marriages as the norm would make people more likely to take more seriously the task of pre-specification - even if they're functionally identical to what can be done now through prenups etc.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:15 AM
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I guess I could see an argument for allowing them to extend for 15 or even 18 years, to get through most of the kid-raising, although no one under 21 would be allowed to enter into one of those. Definitely more dangerous than drinking. (I'd prefer to make the minimum age 25 instead of 21, but I don't think I have the power to do that, constitutionally.)


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:15 AM
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I suspect that people's opinions regarding what constitutes cause for a divorce changes the longer that they are married.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:16 AM
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324: well, that's why there would be term limits. People's opinions regarding a lot of things change over time.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:18 AM
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This seems to be the thread to share that my brother caused a stir of family confusion yesterday by announcing via FB that he and his girlfriend are having a baby, probably not the best medium for that sort of announcement.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:19 AM
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326:
Confusion? "We always thought that Stanley would be the one to knock a girl up!"??


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:21 AM
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How's this -- term marriages to be possible only if the parties enter into an individually tailored pre-nup listing all assets and their disposition at termination, to be updated yearly with any newly acquired assets, and with a fully worked out custody plan for any kids. That'd be different from a standard marriage, and would be a much easier divorce.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:21 AM
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326: Will this be your first uncling?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:24 AM
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I thought the proper term was avunculation.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:25 AM
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I'm not sure I understand what problem 328 is trying to solve. Why would term marriages be more difficult to enter into than standard marriages?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:26 AM
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Except that the fully worked out custody plan can't be binding -- shit happens affecting the best interests of the child that you can't plan in advance. But I don't see why it couldn't be used as evidence highlighting what the parents, when not blind with rage, want for their kids.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:27 AM
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Because with a regular marriage, you've got reasonably high odds of not divorcing, so not preplanning for it isn't insane. (I can see the arguments for prenups and so on, but if you're going in with an express plan for a lifetime commitment, not having the exit strategy worked out makes a certain amount of sense.)

For a term limited marriage, you know the end is coming. So why would you let people get themselves entangled with each other, kids and assets wise, knowing that they're going to be disentangling themselves later, without a plan for it?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:29 AM
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Oh, I get it, 328 meant no-divorce term marriages--is that it? All the annual updating seems unrealistic, and I don't like the advance planning w/r/t the kids.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:30 AM
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That is, I'm not thinking of the required exit plan as a barrier to term marriage, I'm thinking of it as what makes term marriage more desirable than "Let's get hitched, and if we get divorced, we get divorced."

332: True.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:31 AM
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334: Well, you'd still be able to get divorced early if you wanted (or at least I can't see why not), but you'd have the agreement to rely on.

I think the yearly updating would be essential, kids and jobs and assets change fast enough that a ten-year-old plan wouldn't be worth much.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:33 AM
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334 w/o seeing 333. To 333, I see where you're going with it, but I don't actually think many people would enter term marriages knowing they'll be disentangling later. What's the point? I would think they'd be for people who just want to periodically be forced to gut check the relationship, and have to affirmatively re-commit (if they want to), rather than drifting along on autopilot.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:34 AM
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What's the consequence for not making the annual update?

And, whatever your answer is, why couldn't someone who wanted that structure just mimic it right now with a standard marriage? It's a pre-nup plus an agreement to update the pre-nup during the course of the marriage (plus whatever consequence you're about to dream up for failing to do so). will's the expert, but I think that would be enforceable.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:36 AM
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Will this be your first uncling?

It will.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:37 AM
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What's the consequence for not making the annual update?

I was thinking about that. Marriage ends, and assets are distributed along the lines of the last update?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:37 AM
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why couldn't someone who wanted that structure just mimic it right now with a standard marriage?

That goes right back to "what's the point at all"? I'm not sure there is a need for something between cohabitation and marriage, so maybe nothing. What I'm trying to do with the yearly-prenup update is come up with a structure that by default would end easily and cleanly, which is very different from current marriage. You could prenup your way to the same sort of ease of getting out of a standard marriage, but people mostly don't.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:40 AM
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I'm in the process of talking to the lawyer friend who's going to represent me about how to understand my theoretical rights and responsibilities toward Mara if Lee and I were to break up. There's nothing we can do that would get me any real rights at this point, but we need to be very clear about the planning Lee and I did to go into this as full coparents and that Lee doesn't ever intend to view herself as sole parent despite the fact that the law will see her that way. It's really frustrating and annoying, but that's partly because I choose to be frustrated about it, I guess.

That said, we've also made a commitment that we've signed on to the family for the next fifteen years until Mara's eighteen. I'm not sure that either of us would want that to be legally enforceable, but we'd certainly consider it if it were an option available to us.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:48 AM
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LB and urple, you are both self-blinkering by insisting on considering changes in law in isolation from changes in anything else. 337 is perfectly correct in that context.

Not that I know how to change social norms in my preferred direction. But it could serve as a nurturant to ban marriages other than term marriages for the under-thirty?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:56 AM
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There's nothing we can do that would get me any real rights at this point,

Moving to Pennsylvania would do it -- they have some law that I find generally really disturbing about the potential for an unrelated adult to acquire legal 'parental' rights to contact with a child over the parents' objections, but in your situation it makes sense and is appropriate. (This came to my attention in a thread here; a single mother acquaintance of JRoths was in a custody battle with an ex-boyfriend of hers over her kid, to whom the boyfriend was not biologically related.)

PA is an outlier, but I think as a cohabiting parental figure, you would have some legal rights in a number of states. Don't know about your home state, but it's not impossible.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 9:58 AM
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Moving to Pennsylvania would do it

So not worth it for other reasons.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:00 AM
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343: See, I think anything that encourages marriages to be viewed as less permanent is a really bad social change unless it genuinely makes them easier to get out of without litigation/bad feeling. If we've got these term marriages and we still need property settlements and custody hearings when they end, they suck.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:01 AM
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346: That's close to the idea that I started with except phrased more clearly. Especially if you include equity/prevention of as many children in poverty as possible under the heading of "bad feelings."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:04 AM
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What I'm trying to do with the yearly-prenup update is come up with a structure that by default would end easily and cleanly, which is very different from current marriage.

But what I'm not understanding is what would make someone want to choose the sort of arrangement you're describing.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:06 AM
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Oh, moving to Indiana would work in terms of getting us second-parent adoption, but would then undo any chance to be a resource if any of Mara's siblings ever come into care, which is one thing that keeps us here. (Plus I never want to have to sell a house again.) I think if we wait long enough, even our state will come around to allowing same-sex couples to adopt. When we started the process, it was still something you could get judges to do as long as you were quiet about it, but the state supreme court closed that loophole.

Technically, there's no ban on same-sex couples adopting as couples in our state, but we wouldn't be able to get the state office to approve our homestudy and in fact got an annual update to it rejected because our worker accidentally listed us both instead of just Lee. And unless there's an approved homestudy, nothing else about the adoption process can proceed. We of course are not going to fight the system because our main concern is to get Mara out of foster care ASAP, which could apparently mean in the next two or three weeks.

Lee's going to formally waive her superior right of custody in favor of me, meaning that she acknowledges that she is not Mara's sole parent. That will give me standing to petition for partial custody should that ever become necessary. But at this point, that's the best we can do. Everything else is about documenting all the mom-type things I do in case we ever have to defend them. And poor Mara will get a hyphenated name that no one can spell or pronounce but that speaks to our intent to co-parent. Shit like that.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:06 AM
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Plus I never want to have to sell a house again.

I've never sold one yet, but I suppose eventually it will come up.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:11 AM
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348: Because they were entering into a relationship that they thought was likely to come to an end, and they wanted that end to be easy and peaceful, not as unpleasant as a standard-marriage divorce. It'd be more trouble than just getting married to get into, but much easier to get out of.

(I agree that there aren't a lot of people with the sense to opt for something like this, but I do think it would be sensible for many people.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:11 AM
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350: Don't do it! This wasn't even my house to sell and it was still dreadful. I shouldn't say that. It took less than a year and will pay off the mortgage on it and will be all done very soon.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:15 AM
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they were entering into a relationship that they thought was likely to come to an end

What sort of relationship? And why are they getting married rather than just cohabiting? And, if they're being that sensible about things up front, why not just get a normal marriage (with an approporiate prenup) and then get divorced when the time is right? What does the term limit add?

I just really don't understand what problem this is trying to solve.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:16 AM
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352: I'm going to buy a yurt in the country and live off the grid.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:19 AM
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See, I think anything that encourages marriages to be viewed as less permanent is a really bad social change unless it genuinely makes them easier to get out of without litigation/bad feeling.

I think my solution would lead to that as well.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:21 AM
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353: Well, me neither, really. But say there's some benefit to marriage where cohabitation doesn't cut it -- taxes or hospital visitation. If you wanted those benefits without a lifelong committment or a messy divorce, this would do that. But really, I mostly agree with you that it doesn't solve any problems.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:24 AM
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term marriages to be possible only if the parties enter into an individually tailored pre-nup listing all assets and their disposition at termination, to be updated yearly with any newly acquired assets, and with a fully worked out custody plan for any kids. That'd be different from a standard marriage, and would be a much easier divorce.

I haven't read the entire thread, but my understanding is that the Mexico City proposal is intended to do something like this. Except that it would be more like a series of form contracts, rather than precisely individually-tailored. And with Di's caveat that (in the US at least) you can't permanently commit to any kind of child-rearing arrangement in a prenup, although a prior contract can have evidentiary value.

It's also not true that at the end of a two year marriage each spouse simply walks away with what was brought into the marriage. At least in California (and, presumably, in Mexico, from where California family law derives) everything that's put into the marriage during the two year period becomes community property. I.e., if one the wife comes into the marriage with a house, and then uses exclusively her earnings to do a bunch of improvements on the house, there would be a community interest in the improvements that would need to be paid to the husband. Plus there would be a requirement of support. So under the current rules there can be quite complicated property issues even for short marriages, even with no kids.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:33 AM
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The term limit adds an easy divorce if the marriage doesn't work out in the short term, an option to continue the marriage, plus a streamlined and built-in program for dividing assets if the marriage doesn't work out. For a lot of people, it makes a lot of sense. Asking "what problem does this solve" is like asking "why don't all contracts have unlimited terms?"


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:35 AM
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Hey urple, I made what appears to have been a faulty inference about who you were based on what someone else said to you. And then I said something to you based on that assumption that must have been confusing. And then I found five dollars. Anyway, sorry.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:37 AM
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It is my understanding that businesses often have binding arbitration clauses in their contracts, even in contracts where they aren't trying to screw the consumers. Why not do the same type of thing except for couples? Except with Thunderdome instead of an arbitrator.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:38 AM
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360: We still haven't figured parsimon's "what is the point of getting married at all?", but I'm pretty sure the answer isn't "reality TV".


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:40 AM
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I'm not sure about binding arbitration for family law matters -- one potential problem is that it would run into problems with how to deal with kids, since the Court has ultimate jurisdiction to act in the best interest of the child.

Mandatory mediation provisions are very common in divorce settlement agreements here, including in mine.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:41 AM
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360: What makes arbitration better than a court for settling differences? Often, I think it isn't.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:42 AM
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Well, there's that, too. In the business world, a lot of companies have figured out that (except for screwing over consumers, where it is muy excellente) binding arbitration often costs just as much as court and ends up hurting them, sticking them with a bunch of unaccountable arbitrators and no right of appeal.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:44 AM
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I don't think I agree with any clause or subclause of 358, but I'm tired of arguing about it.

And I have no idea what 359 is referring to, but now I feel like maybe I'm supposed to be offended about something.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:46 AM
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There's no shame in not being the man Merganser thought you were.

I don't agree with 358 either.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:53 AM
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362, 363, 364: I said Thunderdome instead of arbitration. The arbitrator was just what got me thinking about non-court methods of settle disputes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:54 AM
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You can view it as a kind of standardized prenup with a renewal term, if that helps.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 10:55 AM
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"We don't need another law-yer,
We don't need to pay the court fee.
Only one will live beyond the Thunderdome."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 11:02 AM
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Judge Kozinski from the US Ct of Appeals from the Ninth Circuit (a very famous, and very very good, albeit libertarian, judge) gives a stump speech in which he says that the essence of the legal system is described by Thunderdome.

I went to a meeting where he gave the talk and got the lawyers to chant "two men enter, one man leaves."


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 11:40 AM
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And here's a copy of the talk. It seemed funnier out loud.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-11-11 11:48 AM
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