Maybe you should look for a cognitive therapist? The evidence that talking about your being helpful is pretty thin. The past is only relevant if it helps you understand the distorted thoughts you have today.
WTF? Who does that to a kitten?
Sorry you ever had to go through that.
As for telling us horrible stuff, it's better telling us and letting it out than letting it fester inside and eat at you.
I keep thinking of that scene in Good Will Hunting where Robin Williams tells Matt Damon, "It's not your fault." And then keeps saying it until it goes from intellectually understood to emotionally accepted. I don't suppose it's really that easy in real life, but it's not your faukt, Alameida. Not your fault what he did to your kitten. Not your fault what he did to you. Not your fault what he did to your brother. It was horrifying what you went throught and you didn't deserve it and you do deserve all the good things you have now.
my therapist is a cognitive behavioral therapist. she is pretty no-nonsense and unflappable; she clearly just thinks I have to deal with these intrusive feelings somehow or I'm going to do something stupid. as to what set me off it's honestly a combination of seeing my older daughter become pre-pubescent and feeling afraid of my friend. feeling like I'm in physical danger from this handsome man with light blue eyes and a 10,000 yard stare, yeah, I remember that all of a sudden. he was helpful in demanding I call my psychiatrist. but he basically told me I had good reasons to be afraid of him, because he fantasizes all the time about hurting the people he loves (physically, I mean) but he never had, and that he was fine because he had another persona in which he could acceptably be violent. this is really more like threatening than like reassuring, on reflection. right? you guys tell me, I don't actually know.
and as I said before, WHO HURTS KITTENS WTF INFINITY??!!
this is really more like threatening than like reassuring, on reflection. right?
You are correct.
I do believe repression can be helpful too and there's nothing to be gained from endlessly reliving bad moments and emotions, but on the other hand I can see where your therapist is coming from. All those unexploded landmines still half buried might be better set off in a controlled explosion than risking them going off when they can hurt somebody.
I don't know if it would be helpful, but Making Light does a Dysfunctional Family Day each year, where you can tell those stories of how evil or bad your family was and how happy you are to have gotten out and nobody will judge you. Gives people a space to unload in a safe place.
Saying that someone hurts kittens is pretty much the archetype of calling them evil, isn't it? I mean, when you don't know someone but hear that they're really awful as a joke people will say, "And he hurts kittens too!" So what is there to say about someone who actually hurts kittens?
It's amazing what people can get acclimatized to. As you say, one of the the big challenges can be just to recognize what's fucked up.
And yeah, I have to agree that danger-friend's tale "is more like threatening than like reassuring." He, too, seems to be acclimatized to some unfortunate things, and his solution - compartmentalization - doesn't seem healthy for him or anyone around him.
Good luck, al.
and then refuse to let her take it to the vet, even when I pleaded.
Truly WTF horrible.
mr. XE also grew up in an abusive alcoholic family, but was abused by his mom. this somewhat throws a wrench in my "fuck a bunch of dudes, they're all evil" theory of life. nonetheless I have lost my sense of humor about sexism, apparently. my husband is a joking fellow and I had to tell him seriously, don't make any fucking jokes about anything.
I agree with di. It isn't your fault. It isn't your fault. I'm sorry that you have experienced so much fucked up shit. You've gotten far more than your fair share. Sucks.
I love the idea of Dysfunctional Family Day. Love it.
11:
I tend to veer toward the joking tend. It is helpful for me when people say "please don't joke around about it."
For me, it is a helpful mechanism so I don't necessarily recognize that it might not be the right time.
You know, I don't want to pile on the angry, but aren't you angry with your mother for marrying that asshole? She should have been protecting you. And your brother. Fucking Christ. WTF is wrong with people?
hi, alameda! i am again maybe to say something that won't be pleasing, just i read your posts and sometimes want to respond, bc it makes me care about you and your struggle
i just thought it's very admirable thhough, at first i read your posts with disbelief too
and if you permit, if to concentrate more on your kids, like just from the very simple, making their lunch not relying on the maid etc i an not saying you are not an attentive mother, just say that if you are preoccupied with doing something physically and it's meaningful not just only to yourself like exercise and sports, those are pretty selfish preoccupations it seems to me, so then you just dont have enough time to worry about past, maybe, if you say to yourself i can't fail them your kids in any way, if you shift your focus from you to them, they would be the strongest guarantee that you would never fail, no?
i hope everything is ok with your brother, mb anxiety about him in present makes you suffer and struggle now what i thought reading your latest posts
sorry i know you don't like advices, and i'm unwelcome to give them here, but your posts suggest you actually ask for help and welcome discussion, so i just try to help and if you think it's intrusive you can dismiss it as such
but it could be not your kids, kids i know are too sensitive the matter to discuss with strangers, could be anything that distracts you from yourself
I'm a lurker these days.
Where I used to work they had an experimental program with SE Asian refugees who had suffered varying degrees of trauma including the most horrible. The idea was to talk about it and "get it out". The program was closed down halfway through because, once the refugees' intense resistance to talking about was broken down, they deteriorated terribly. About that time I was an ESL aide to refugees, and when the teacher asked the students to talk about their past in Asia, two guys became unmistakably furious, and one girl flatly refused to follow instructions: Teacher: "Tell us about your family". Student: "This coffee is black and strong".
Some say that this is specific to Asian cultures. A Chinese woman who suffered along with her family during the Cultural Revolution mentioned "compartmentalization" as the Chinese method. (She's been in the states for ten years and was very well educated). "That was then, this is now. "
Chinese historically had a pretty pessimistic baseline, and the possibility of horrible disaster was never far from anyone's minds even in the best times. At the same time, all these cases were external, suffering coming from enemies and not from family. That would be harder to compartmentalize.
I have also known people who spent their whole lives reliving old trauma much less intense than Alameida's. Therapy can be a sort of tar pit.
hi, JE! maybe it's an Asian thing, yes, but what i think about psychotherapy is harmful is this always digging the past, not letting one to forget, it just brings up the smallest details which could exacerbate one's troubled present mind, it doesn't permit healing imo
and if one thinks you are to suffer in this world, that it's just a given thing, that everything will pass, and happiness is not something compulsory, it's easier to cope with anything and cherish the times when one is happy
sorry again if it sounds to you too that, a bit preachy
Don't listen to read and JE, al.
See, it's all about the transference, about getting back to that wounded child and then having the nurturing therapist heal the wounds. Whatever the shrink says, it's totally gonna work. Trust her completely, obey her without reservation or hesitation. Faith heals.
i think it's not a joking matter
and i seems forgot about the tempting torturer, how one can be attractive being the one who he is is beyond my understanding of course
so that is one selfish desire and as it goes with desires it would go away immediately if you satisfy it, but if by satisfying the desire you would hurt your loved ones, that is not permitted absolutely and one shouldn't even hesitate about it
this everything should be something about sexual gratification thing, forbidden or not, is really what is off-puttung in the western culture
it's just animal instincts, sex, flies can copulate so what
i hope this will help you to avoid temptation
sorry again for if anything is wrong in my comment
how many children do you have read?
emerson, I promise you I have given repression the old college try. if you ask me I would say I think they should just give me increasing doses of benzos to continue with my not feeling anything policy. I don't want any seroquel but if they had to move on to the other things they give schizoephrenics, fuck it, bring it on. nonetheless some suggest that pushing the problems down with drugs is a failed solution to the problem. this point may have merit. the suggestion is that I just accept that these things happened so I can get on with life, rather than constantly pretend they didn't happen and have to fight them down all the time.
Al, you're there, no one else giving you advice is, you know better than anyone else what to do. Um, is it all right to ask nosy questions? This isn't exactly what you need to talk about, but I always get stuck on where the rest of your family was when this shit was happening to you and your brother: they weren't totally estranged, and they had money.
I don't know if this would help, but would getting furious at the functional adults who failed your childhood self, and knowing that that won't happen to your kids, make you feel better.
this everything should be something about sexual gratification thing, forbidden or not, is really what is off-puttung in the western culture, it's just animal instincts, sex, flies can copulate so what, i hope this will help you to avoid temptation.
read, I'm afraid that won't help me to avoid temptation at all. but you're really out-doing yourself, please do go on.
It really is impressive how incredibly offensive read's advice is. Have you considered that maybe you're just a selfish whore who represents everything disgusting about Western culture, especially being a bad mother? So sorry if anything is wrong in this comment! Just trying to be helpful in any way I can! Hilarious!
yes, what LB says is also i have been wondering too, especially the mother, but it would add up to the unwelcome things i would say so i won't
the question how many children i have is not relevant, or if relevant i don't have children and it could make me more competent in anything about kids cz if one is wanting children is different from one who doesn't want children or have already them as something ordinary and given
i don't want my own just because it's too much responsibility and i doubt myself i'll be able to bear it, it's selfish too, i know
so i will never have them and my time is already up to that too, adopting a kid is also the matter of responsibility and self-doubt, maybe i should just sponsor a kid not getting too much involved, to satisfy my motherly instincts
and i have my nieces and nephews who fulfill that too, so i am ok
LB: yeah, my husband was just asking me that, did they know how bad it was. the answer is no, they didn't know at the time. my mom wasn't going to tell them, right? once when I was struggling to think of a single good thing to say about my stepfather I said, "he could be a lot of fun at parties." which, indeed, he could. so if you only saw him then and no one told you what was going on...
and honestly, it's not as though he was constantly beating us or anything, this is part of the reason I don't want to make too much of it. (my stepfather, when he was little, was just getting the living shit beat out of him all the time. ack making excuses.) everyone knew he "had a temper." why didn't I think of trying to get my sister away from my mom when they were alone together in the last stages of my mom's alcoholism, I mean, I thought of trying to get her away myself but I never thought of sending her to my aunt's, why not? the real question is why my dad didn't seek custody, right? except he didn't want us living there. that stung a bit. and the custody hearing would be ugly, honestly; his constant illegal drug use and history of violence might not make him look too good to the court either. he really did do something that could have killed me when he tossed me down the stairs in my walker as a toddler, right?
WHO HURTS KITTENS WTF INFINITY??!!
I second this. WTF is wrong with people?
well, i knew nothing good would come up of this discussion, okay
Read, when people express pain and ask for advice, it's not because they want someone to show up and call them a selfish whore and a bad mother. IIRC, that was pretty much the advice you gave to DK too. If you have zero compassion for the human beings right in front of you who are expressing pain, why not try fucking off? Increasing other people's pain as a hobby sounds pretty selfish and cruel to me, so I don't know where you get off lecturing people about how they represent the loathsome indulgent Western culture you despise.
Further to 28: Acknowledgedly, I have a misanthrope's love of animals, but stories like that reinforce my position. Humanity sucks.
please, AWB, i'm not talking to you and i never said bad things about alameda you attribute to me
i can go away as you say, just i always wonder and like feel bad for you, your inability to accept if not accpet even consider as like it could be a legitimate point of view of anything that is not your exact thinking, believe it or not, my compassion made me write these offensive to you comments
Holy crap that's psycho evil, I'm sorry you had to go through that, al. (My heart goes out to you, seriously. It's got to be a tough struggle.)
However: I get kind of really worried when I see people who are obviously hurting turning to the Internet for support; if there isn't a popular adage to the effect "Go Thou Not to the Internets for Therapy," I sort of think there ought to be, since even the most well-meaning imaginary friends on the Internets can wind up being at best unhelpful in delicate situations. I mean, yikes, Unfogged rates very highly for functionality as Internet debate spaces go*, and look at this thread already.
(* No, really. It does.)
What 33 said. Oh, and what 6 said, too.
Read, I'm usually not one of the people mixing it up with you, but your advice in this thread is astonishingly rude and unpleasant. Either you're an asshole, or there's a cultural gap you're not capable of bridging, but in any case saying the sorts of things you've said won't do any good, and will make people angry with you.
If you keep on saying similarly offensive things, I'll assume that your actual goal is to make people angry rather than to help, and I'll start deleting your comments in this thread.
al,
That was some really fucked up sadistic shit you had to go through and nothing explains or justifies it.
On your mercenary friend, outside the room it's impossible to know whether what he said was meant to be threatening/mind-fucky or thoughtless/honest (I really don't see how reassuring would fit in there), but in any case it seems dangerously psychopathic and dangerously dangerous. Stay far away.
On repression, man I don't know, but I think Martin has it right. More of this stuff is going to get triggered as your kids get older and it seems better to work through and be aware of it rather than getting completely blindsided.
Yeah, the "I think about hurting people but haven't acted on it yet" thing is not only threatening; it's probably a lie.
33: this is true. it's not like I haven't gotten burned before. but the idea is not that talking to the magic healing power of the internet will fix my problems, but rather than some other stuff will help me fix this: writing, and talking to my shrink and my husband and so on, I'm just doing this because I'm tweaking out and I have a blog, on which I tell personal stories. you may have noticed this about this blog in the past. also, like I say, I am sometimes unable to decide whether some shit was OK or not, and it's genuinely helpful to hear other people say "are you fucking kidding, that was horrible?" even if there is a lot of noise in the thread, there is generally a signal, and since lots of smart people whose company I enjoy comment here, I am often interested to hear what they think. plus read is cracking me up. the maid and the sandwiches was really a moment of genius there.
yes, i am an outsider and of different culture and if i say things it sounds more offensive than it should have been i guess, but let me assure you LB, i write just what i think without any side thoughts of trying to troll, insult, anger people
the support you all offer at this forum, acknowledging one's suffering is good and well meaning, but i'm afraid it doesn't work, it just allows the sufferer to indulge in self-pity and replaying the whole things that caused the suffering again and again
what does it mean my heart goes out for you, it doesn't mean anything much and it's an easy thing to say and be done with it
i don't see anyone trying actually to disrupt maybe the circle of thoughts that is hurting which could actually be helpful to the person asking for help
you are shocked that i compared humans with flies? what if you recall that offensive phrase in the moment of temptation and it would stop you from doing something which could have too dangerous consequences for you and your loved ones
what if the minor offense/joy/annoyance/anything one felt interacting with others could stop one from doing something irreversible, like suicide
Delurking to say: Go Team Don't Burn Shit Down!
I have found that just airing stuff online makes me confront the fact that things actually are problems and that I need to deal with them actively, even if it's just the act of writing the thing out. It's definitely not a replacement for treatment, but it can be the thing that reminds one, as al says, that shit really is fucked up and that it's OK to have feelings.
and honestly, it's not as though he was constantly beating us or anything, this is part of the reason I don't want to make too much of it.
I don't know that it would actually be possible for you to make too much of it. There's no amount of the behavior you've described that's acceptable; even if throwing your kitten against the wall (which, let me echo everyone else, WTF?) was the only thing he'd ever done, it would still be horrible and evil.
I agree completely with awb in 41. Airing it out allows you to burn some small shit down. Let out some steam so you don't do major burning down of shit.
37: "I think about hurting the people I love all the time but haven't ever done it," was the suggestion, i.e. I hurt other people about whom I don't care. but yeah, that could be a lie too. it was meant to be reassuring because I'm one of the people he loves, whom he doesn't hurt even though he really wants to...no, wait that doesn't sound very reassuring, actually. it came out as reassuring though. like "don't worry, you're not crazy for being afraid of me, but you're also safe so don't worry about it." ah, I find myself unable to render this conversation without it sounding threatening. see, this is the kind of thing the internet can be good for.
This post title is very distracting to me too. Every time I read it, I think "hell yea! Let's burn down some shit!!!" (maybe it is a southern thing.)
Then, I remember "No!!! Don't burn shit down!!!!"
Does it make sense to cut off contact with DangerFriend because he's making you crazy? (Within the limits of finishing his house.) Doesn't have to be his fault, just that your past issues are getting set off around him. He sounds clear enough on old trauma and how it can affect you that you can tell him just like that: not that he's doing anything wrong, necessarily, but being around him makes you crazier than you would be otherwise.
I think psychological treatments might have different results in different cultures. You can't just import a concept of psychological health that you've never experienced with no relationship to the culture of meaning-making that you grew up in. Where I went to college, there was a professor studying a particular method of care and treatment for schizophrenia among Yo/ruba people that is shockingly effective for re-integrating mentally ill people back into society. The professor was trying to find ways to figure out what made this treatment so effective and if there was a way to adapt it for Western clients, but one of the problems they found is that it has everything to do with the structures of meaning-making in Yo/ruba religion, culture, and narrative. It isn't importable. To deal with psychological suffering, you can't just impose a totally different structure of thought on them.
The read approach is offensive to me because I grew up in an abusive home in which declaring that I was experiencing suffering was called "selfish," and that to be a good person, I had to learn to never talk about or acknowledge that I was in pain. When you grow up understanding that feelings are selfish, that only parents and bullies and people in power get to have feelings because they've earned them, it's really really hard to grow up and experience any feelings without hating yourself for it. So people like us need someone to mirror and remind us that it's OK to be upset that we suffered abuse. One more person calling us selfish is not actually helpful, no matter what cultural construct it emerges from.
44 makes him sound scary and fucked up. I'm hoping you are not being a reliable narrator about him.
38: Cool beans if it's genuinely helpful for you, of course; I only said something on account of this time strikes me as quite different from other times you've shared personal stories, as to how you're describing your present-day headspace. But if my concern is misplaced, then great.
Romans are burning shit down.
But as I always told back in the day:"Save it for group."
The Major burning-shit-down is a social activity.
dude, team burn shit down has got a lot of appeal. it's team "let's get fucked-up wasted." it's team "why are you going to sleep you pussy bitches let's snort the rest of that crushed dexedrine and drive to las vegas!!" face it, it's team copulate like flies. hott.
44: Yeah, I guess I don't believe that he hasn't hurt people he loves. People who hurt people they love tend IME to be especially defensive about the boundaries they think they're really good at maintaining. My abusive ex-bf used to say all the time that he had violent thoughts sometimes but thank God he's not the kind of guy who would hurt any living thing. And I was like, um, remember last night when you threw the cat against the wall and got a knife from the kitchen and held it to my throat before you tried to commit suicide? That actually happened.
(Cats against walls. It's a thing apparently.)
53: For the avoidance of doubt, it is an unacceptable thing. Can't emphasize that enough.
If I ever go on ok Cupid, please remind me to use the phrase "copulates like flies."
Do flies copulate, laying eggs as they do?
Fertilizes eggs like flies doesnt work as well.
Of course flies copulate -- so do birds (which also lay eggs). The eggs are fertilised in the body (or on the way out); difference is, they don't then grow within the body. (Some flies lay them in other bodies, of course.)
Aristotle has a line somewhere about the difficulty of separating flies in the act. I forget if he explains why he was trying (he may have trying to count their legs, he thought they had four).
As I said, listen to your therapist, but 50 was remembrance of a method. Am I the only one around who has spent time in encounter groups?
Total repressed discipline 23 hours a day, 1 hour a day screaming rage. Any target will do, as long as it is a real person in the room with you, justification irrelevant, point being release of repressed emotions. Re-enactments.
You can use me if you want. I've had practice at taking verbal abuse. Almost a pro.
53: Puppies, too. And children.
I'm an empiricist on this sort of thing. What works for you works for you. Personally I'm with Emerson: repression works for me. Drinking didn't; I tried it freshman year of college and flunked out.
What you have been through was horrible. Do whatever you need to do to recover. Just don't go back to the stuff that has too many side effects.
Although I've done a good job of having empathy for Mara's mother over the past year, understanding the reasons I suspect it was hard for her to take care of Mara appropriately and keep Mara safe, having kids in the home who just instinctively expect adults to take care of them and rely on that has made me grieve for what Mara didn't have as a baby and that means being annoyed with her mom.
The issue isn't that Mara's history has changed or that I know more about it, but I'm seeing it through a different lens and I have a new emotional response to it. Alameida, it's very normal for parents who've experienced child abuse to be triggered when their own children reach a stage that reminds them of their own history. It may be one thing to look back and think about how you saw yourself as strong and capable at a given age, but then seeing your daughter at the same age is a wake-up call or sorts. This is not wallowing but reframing and I think probably necessary to work through your past to be able to live your life now. It sounds to me like you're doing the right thing, and being honest about horrible stuff is going to be part of that.
my husband suggested we put my psychiatrist bills into the charges for the house. yeah, I texted mcblackwater that I wanted to talk to him about something and he texted back "is this where we have the discussion about how you can't see me anymore because I'm crazy?" so it's not like he'd be surprised. he's going through a very difficult time with the divorce obviously, and so it's more reasonable than usual to be afraid of him, according to him, because "his cage is rattled." but he's my friend! and...I like being scared? I'm just power-tripping because he's obsessed with me? I don't deserve consistent, solid love and compassion, but rather someone with infinitely variable moods which I can never predict, whom I can never placate, who might explode into violence at any time? BO-ring. so done that. but you know what's fucked up; you know why I'm so good at flirting with guys? because I used to flirt with my stepdad so I had a lot of practice. because I thought it would keep him from blowing up. because I thought it would keep his attention on me and off my brother. my mother would yell at me about it sometimes. yeah, I might end up getting angry at my mom.
62: shouldn't you be sleeping now?!?! Sounds like hubby is on top of it. Smart man.
52: god, I'm so sorry, I didn't know that awb. that must have been terrifying. my heart goes out to you.
going to sleep; let read do her thing, whatever. read, emerson, text, FL, who knows, ogged might be about to comment on some shit.
47 it's good you brought up Yoruba people, so you are not completely shut out to anything outside your experience
i think i should interpret this as if you acknowledged that i commented not to insult, but to help however unhelpful it was, good, that soothed MY hurt feelings
however absurd that could sound
so you are not completely shut out to anything outside your experience
Fuck you, read. Jesus Christ.
Read-
Have you thought about taking the opportunity to learn something about a different culture? People here get very angry with you, frequently. It may seem purely irrational to you, but there's a possibility you could look back at your posts and try to isolate some subtle patterns in them that are getting in the way of successfully communicating with people here.
I understand that this is difficult, learning to adapt your behavior to a set of cultural standards that aren't what you grew up with. But if it's too difficult for you to manage, you're going to have to accept that your behavior angers people, and deal with that anger.
i think LB you are biased there, why it's okay for AWB to acknowldedge she gets hurt, but for me i have to adjust myself to the cultural norms accepted here
why you can't imagine i can be hurt too
Honestly, I keep forgetting that read is incapable of having a conversation in good will. I keep trying to imagine a possible reading of her comments that isn't hateful and solipsistic, and then she reminds me that she is never not hateful and solipsistic. And when people point out, over and over again, that she has hurt and insulted people very deeply, she doubles down by being condescending. I was sick of it before and I'm sick of it now. She knew perfectly well that she was hurting Di and she explicitly said that was her intention. So I don't know why everyone tries to say, "Oh, it must be in your culture to be a total prick to people when they're experiencing pain! In our culture, we try to be kind and compassionate sometimes!" But right, we're hurting *her.*
yes, you are hurting me and it hurts just like you feel when you are hurt, is that too difficult for you to imagine?
You can be hurt, that's absolutely your right. I'm suggesting that if you had the capacity to learn how our standards of polite behavior work, you might not get hurt so often. If learning that is too hard for you, then you are going to get hurt by people defending themselves against behavior from you that is, by our culturally contingent rules, unwarranted aggression.
If you like feeling hurt, you should keep on behaving in the same way. If you don't enjoy it, you might consider changing something.
70, 72- No one is telling you not to acknowledge that you are hurt. People are telling you that there is a chain of cause and effect resulting in your being hurt. It goes like this:
(1). read says something that other people find offensive and/or hurtful
(2). other people react angrily to (1).
(3). read is hurt by the reaction in (2).
One way to avoid (3) would be to stop doing (1). One way to stop doing (1) would be to adjust to the cultural norms accepted here.
You seem to think that a better way to avoid (3) would be for everyone else to adjust their expectations to you. It's fine with me if you think that, but empirically, it seems unlikely to work out that way. Iif you're set on doing as much (1) as you want to, you probably shouldn't be surprised by all the (2).
well, i think just there shouldn't be double standards in anything, why it's perfectly okay to be for AWB a poor hurting perpetually suffering darling, and if i express the same thought then it's you are incapable of feelings, you are not polite, you better go away or change yourself
what is it if it's not the same thing she kept hearing when she was growing up, be consistent in your beliefs i mean, sorry of course if you perceiev it as if i'm trying to teach you a lesson cz i'm not supposed to, right?
We can just start ignoring this now instead of responding to it, right?
No, Read, it's the same set of standards. You say things that hurt people. And you can do that. In response, people say things that hurt you. And they can do that. It's the same standard for everyone.
If you don't like it, you can learn how to stop saying things that hurt people. They will then be much less likely to say things that hurt you, and if people hurt you anyway, you will get more sympathy and help from other people, if it's not clear that you started saying hurtful things first.
||
I'm putting this in a pause/play block because it's not really about the current topic of this thread, although it is about this thread in a meta way (always a bad sign): there seem to me to be interesting structural problems with this kind of "internet as therapy" thread (whether or not that's what's going on); if you have something supportive to say, that's fine, you say something supportive. If you have nothing particularly supportive to say but are trying not to be an asshole, you can either bow out entirely or you can try to express your thoughts in very carefully crafted comments, lest the thread turn ugly. The latter path requires a fair bit of minefield-traversing and is sort of emotionally exhausting, I think, and anyhow there isn't that much to say, so people don't do a lot of it. Finally, if you have nothing particularly supportive to say and you are an asshole, you weigh right in. Which means that threads like this always end up in basically open warfare between people who are trying to be supportive and people who are (whether they're trying to be or not) assholes, which isn't particularly edifying for anybody.
There are probably online communities where this works out okay, because they're built around shared experience and mutual supportiveness, and therefore anybody who isn't supportive is pretty much a troll by definition and can be banned (and have their comments deleted). In communities that aren't oriented that way, I think the dynamic runs the risk of sort of sucking up all the energy in the room such that people who are not interested in being on one side or the other of the great supportive/asshole divide wander off.
Anyhow.
|>
Guys, we've tried to have this conversation with her before. She has in the past come to an understanding that her behavior is hurtful and decided to pursue that course of action without regard to other people's feelings. This is not a good-faith argument. (I especially like where she makes fun of suffering. That's a good one! Very compassionate and awesome!)
it's the same standard for everyone
then why you are policing me, let it be however it goes
i explained myself many times that i don't say things to offend, but to offer a different opinion, different point of view and if it offends people what to do, i don't mind their expressing their opinions too and try to respond how i find it is fit to respond
this policing and taking the sides biasedly is maybe the most hurtful thing for me, and i can go away any time, sure, just what it gives, okay, maybe peace in the threads, though i thought internet is for open interaction for all
In no particular order:
To me, Scary Dude just sounds like he's trying to reassure you that very nasty thoughts don't always translate to actions. There are plenty of people on the L.A. freeways who can attest to that. I can attest to that. Nonetheless, if he's adding to your current stress, then you need a break.
Near as I can tell, the debriefing technique for dealing with recent trauma has been discredited. Getting someone to dredge up the horrible details prevents those from fading as they usually do.
On the other hand, knowing what happened in the distant past is useful, IMO. It gives causes for effects. It didn't take a genius level IQ to understand why I tended to get all OCD about lost screwdrivers or lens caps after I found out I had lost a mother. I still get into searches for some trivial items to some extent, but they're far less fraught and are easily aborted.
Yeah, the shit that happened to you was indeed horrible. That shouldn't be minimized. And yes, it's survivable and the cycle is breakable, as you have so far proved.
IMX there are no magic answers or therapies. It's one fucking step at a time, sometimes two back, and so on. I'm with Jim in 60 on this. Do what works, with due regard for the side-effects.
(And please excuse the tone of this. Upon re-reading, I see I've retreated into my hard-nosed persona. Just read it as saying, "I wish you well")
I think the line between repression and dredging up things in order to defuse any potential time bombs is an interesting one. I didn't have a particularly happy childhood and it's definitely warped me in some ways, but for the last 15 years or so, repression has been working wonders.
Reading alameida's posts brings up memories, and I find myself going through that same exact response, ie, thinking: Yeah - those things your own step-dad to you? Maybe it wasn't what you think of as abuse (it always could have been worse, right? It's not like I got hit, you tell yourself), but it was still pretty fucking wrong (ok, not kitten against the wall wrong) to do to a child. But when I have people tell me that it was wrong (which they have, in the few times I've brought it up), I still end up defending the motherfucker. Which is well ... also wrong. Ugh.
So anyway, I don't know if it's helping me or not, or if it's helping alameida, but it certainly is doing something.
Read, talking to you isn't policing you. You seem unhappy with the results of your interactions here. I'm suggesting that if you did something, that I understand is very difficult for you, you might be able to interact in a way that made you happier, and that allowed you to give the helpful and kindly meant advice that you wish to give people in a way that they might listen to. If you don't change the way you behave toward people here, they won't learn anything from you, and they will react in a way that hurts your feelings. But how you behave is your decision.
Oh, just kill my 81 and this. I'm not going to bother with anything that's devolved into another episode of read vs the universe.
78: Metafilter/AskMe works remarkably well for conversations like this one. The third type of comment you mention (weighing right in and being an asshole) tend to get nuked by the mods, but there's always MetaTalk as a place to discuss the issues and figure out how to handle them better in the future. As a result, you get way more of the second type of comment, because there's much less risk of the thread getting derailed.
It wouldn't work many other places, but it does work.
i don't seek being happier is the thing, if you don't see it LB, and if you reread your comments in the thread policing is what you are doing here, and you are admin here, of course and have every rights to be that, but you are of course the last one to accept you might be doing something wrong, in this case, policing, you are talking to me, that's very convincing if you didn't start right away from threats to delete me, well, i am the same, in a way, and usually i agree with your opinions
what i seek is open conversation when it is requested by the post itself and where everyone has a say and is not bullied into universal that, compliance
well, i think just there shouldn't be double standards in anything, why it's perfectly okay to be for AWB a poor hurting perpetually suffering darling, and if i express the same thought
read, one more perspective, I think it's fair, and possibly productive, for you to say something when you end up feeling hurt, but the quoted quoted comment seems very wrong to me, and difficult to interpret as being in good faith.
I was trying to think about what it reminded me of and (to violate the analogy ban) I realized that it sounded like the internet stereotype of "nice guys" who get angry with other people for not recognizing how "nice" they are and complain about how everybody says that they want one thing but then don't behave that way -- in a way that makes clear that they don't understand what it is that people are asking for.
From my perspective, if you'd said that you felt hurt, and the left that it would have allowed people to reflect and maybe have more sympathy in the next interactions. But to say that and then, seven minutes later, start getting angry about double standards makes it feel like the expression of hurt was just a preamble to set up the angry comments, rather than being intended to stand on its own.
*shrug*
I don't know if that helps at all. Perhaps I shouldn't say anything.
Also,
and as I said before, WHO HURTS KITTENS WTF INFINITY??!!
Yes, absolutely. I had that story stuck in my head after you posted it yesterday and, every time I would think of it I would just think that it was one of the most fucked up things I'd heard.
This is not a good-faith argument.
Indeed it is not. We've been down this road before.
You know, maybe this is totally unhelpful. It's oblique to anything al is talking about, so many I'm an asshole for wanting to say something not directly supportive. But you know how when you start to get to know a field both as an academic and a practitioner and people say things about it that just sound so weird to you?
The evidence that talking about your being helpful is pretty thin. The past is only relevant if it helps you understand the distorted thoughts you have today.
Exposure, which is talking about the past for the purpose of of reexperiencing the associated emotions in a new, safe context, and learning that they don't have to be overwhelmingly threatening, is a core element of cognitive therapy, and might be the single best empirically supported specific technique. Otherwise, I think there's very little evidence that actually isolates what specific techniques are effective about CBT, and whether CBT is actually more effective than psychodynamic therapy -- or for that matter whether specific techniques, as opposed to "non-specific factors" like a supportive relationship with the therapist, make a difference in efficacy at all -- is still a matter of research controversy. I mean, the evidence that talking about the past is helpful may be in some sense thin, but in the same sense so is the evidence for every specific therapeutic intervention. It's not well understood why therapy helps some people (and it doesn't help everyone).
I study and work in CBT central and to the extent I have an orientation, that's mine, so this definitely isn't coming from hostility to CBT.
I've found -- and I know this is true of other students I know -- that when you start to learn about a variety of theoretical orientations, what becomes obvious is that there are a few core techniques that all orientations use with various degrees of emphasis: exposure; teaching methods for relaxation, distraction and/or attentional control; reinterpretation of past events, narratives, and core beliefs about the self (something you do in CBT); reinterpretation of the present; structured projects for behavior change; non-judgmental acceptance of thoughts and emotions (this is, incidentally, why I get a little reactive to characterizations of the meanings of thoughts that feel too rule-like to me); and the supportive, empathic relationship with the therapist.
All that said, interventions that make sense in one culture may not make sense in another, a good therapist will help you manage the affect that comes up when you talk about the past and I've certainly had experience with a bad one in that regard, and everyone should pay attention to whether their therapist is really helping them get better and not just accept some program.
That's absolutely right, read, when I tell you that I will delete your comments, that's policing. When I talk to you about how you could engage with people here in a way that might let them learn from you, that's not policing, that's helpful advice.
EM's 74 seems pretty sage advice to read, but also to the universe. There are a lot of alternatives to what EM describes in 74(2); some possible expressions of 74(2) are 'good faith argument' and some are not.
okay, apo and NickS, if you two think so too, i should go, my attempts to communicate will always be rejected here that is proven
maybe the last thing i should try to explain is i felt very sad and sorry to learn about Pdf, i thought he used to comment here when i was here too, what if i persisted in amusing you all by my idiosyncratic comments, what if he could have been here now then, that is very self-centric of me to think so, sure, but i mourn him too and it feels very real for me
good luck to all
Not that objecting to kitten-throwing makes one a cat person, but it would amuse/please me to know that Flip is a cat person. Flip, are you a cat person? Extra points if you get slightly gooshy about them and maybe even talk about them in silly voices. You are not required to love every kind of cat for my amusement.
Also: what Blume said. Do not engage. Unless you really enjoy the tar-baby experience of arguing with people who are on the mentally ill/troll border.
Disengaging is, granted, not easy. I had sort of a friendship-breakup thing a crazy person a year and a half ago and he would send me these insane, hostile but slightly engaging emails with shit I really wanted to respond to, but everyone's advice was IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE and it was very good advice.
Alternate story: I was on the subway one morning and a crazy subway preacher started talking about faggots and I yelled FUCK YOU so of course he preached louder about faggots. I told my clinical supervisor this story and she was like "huh yeah so did yelling at a mentally ill person achieve what you hoped it would?" In restaurant parlance: how's that flamewar working out for you?
I think the main point here may be: do not worry about whether read is crazy or just a putz. In either case:
IGNORE IGNORE INGORE.
95: I like to talk to kittens. Also doggies. I also ask them questions like, "Where do you think I put my keys?" and "Are my shoes ok?"
On McDangerMan,
62: he's going through a very difficult time with the divorce obviously, and so it's more reasonable than usual to be afraid of him, according to him, because "his cage is rattled." but he's my friend! and...I like being scared? I'm just power-tripping because he's obsessed with me?
It hadn't occurred to me before, but here's a thought (not a strong opinion): he actually sounds needy. There's nothing wrong with being needy if you're in need, but if/when it's deployed in a manipulative manner, as it may be toward alameida, it ain't too cool, esp. when it's becoming too difficult for her to manage. I'm wondering, al, if you're worried about abandoning him when he's going through a tough time; and he's worried about your abandoning him, hence his "I never hurt the ones I love, don't be scared" (his text from 62, "is this where we have the discussion about how you can't see me anymore because I'm crazy?", suggested this to me).
Aside from all that, yeah, al, what your stepdad did was disgustingly inexcusable and it's completely understandable that it's stayed with you. I ... don't know how to exorcise it completely. Don't give up.
This conversation could have been avoided with a couple o
hours of copulating like flies.
Also, it is nice to see you comment, Biohazard.
95: "huh yeah so did yelling at a mentally ill person achieve what you hoped it would?"
Heh. Probably the best advice -- in a really stop and think about this, don't forget this, sense -- I ever received in therapy was the therapist's question, "What do you want to happen? Is [your contemplated action/behavior] going to achieve that? What is [contemplated action/behavior] likely to make happen?"
before going, i wanted to say hi to parsimon, i also tend to agree with her often, but this time your thinking is a bit faulty "What is [contemplated action/behavior] likely to make happen?" ? so you just shun the mentally ill, right, very compassionate of you
suppose you direct the same sentence not at me but alameda or AWB and what effect it could have
if all thought like that, ows won't be happening right now, i guess
ToS, you are not in a third world country where we try to cope with life and its joy and sufferings without paid therapists, alas, so you i think really need help, i can troll you on your own site if you prefer, but the therapist is better sure
102: so you just shun the mentally ill, right, very compassionate of you
No, read. You've drawn the wrong conclusion.
99: Thanks. It's nice to be up enough to be engaged, enraged, etc.
so what is your action then, if it doesn't stop you conversing with the crazies, all your questions sound like that
Not that objecting to kitten-throwing makes one a cat person, but it would amuse/please me to know that Flip is a cat person. Flip, are you a cat person? Extra points if you get slightly gooshy about them and maybe even talk about them in silly voices.
I like animals with few exceptions (mole rats, humans). I try not to address them in silly voices, but there was a raccoon who lived in a tree by the skating rink in Central Park whom I used to greet on my way home from work. I will not respond to queries about whether I make old-lady-esque tsping noises at squirrels and chipmunks.
I talk the cats all the time using my regular conversational voice. We discuss world events, stuff we've seen on the internet, books, and have frequent arguments over who gets to use the iPad ever since I, in a fit of stupidity, put a cat toy app on it and showed it to them.
105: The advice I was describing in 100 wasn't meant to apply to the mentally ill who are casually overheard on the subway or on a street corner. It was to apply to people one knows in one's own personal life.
That said, obviously yelling at a crazy preacher on the subway isn't going to stop him from yelling even more, or convince him that he's wrong about faggots. The crazy preacher doesn't have enough impulse control to check the trajectory he's on.
I mean, is it a mark of being a "cat person" to greet cats with a cheerful "Hello, kitty"? To leave out food for the stray cat that used to live in the little park near one's building? To stop and pet stray cats in Europe? To photograph the occasional cat in one's travels and post the pictures to Facebook? The point is, I'm not on trial here.
"It was to apply to people one knows in one's own personal life."
isn't it even worse then, they need your help right now and you would be avoiding them, instead of engaging with them, anything is better than that, even confronting, shouldn't one try to help, try to do anything, not just ignore or wish the state, therapist, hospital or even just they themselves would take care of them
Cat people are the ... best people ... in the w-o-o-o-rldd.
Or however that song goes. Conversational voices are best with cats. Baby voices with cats are insulting.
read, I don't know what to say, and I'm going to drop this now. Basically, if you're on the subway on your way to work, you cannot stop to intervene and try to help a crazy person who may well not want or need any help. I understand what you say, but it's unfortunately not possible for us all to stop and help.
you pretend now you don't understand you told yourself your questions were directed at the troubled person in your personal life, what is your action then and please, don't try to talk down at me as if i don't get what you are saying and asling about subway people, which are of course shame in this rich country with abundant therapists on every corner
Cats are our favorite! Cats are smart, when they don't move we can't see them, but we can find them with our smellers and then cats are SLOW. And Dumb. And lots of fun. We work as a team with one of us crawling under the car while the other waits on the other side. And dunb cats always run in a direction opposite to attack, and we know that. We can panic a tree'd cat and make him fall off. Cats are a blast. Have gotten six in the last ten years.
People keep your cats inside.
The questions were directed at a troubled relationship in one's personal life, and how one should proceed in resolving it.
Enough.
And you know what else? When a cat runs real fast in front of is, like left to right, we know to go left rather than after big cat. Big cat can scratch but mama cat is trying to draw us from kittens and we know that and kittens are easy!
what that clarifies, relationship, it's a person there and you say stop interacting with the person because it would change nothing in that "relationship", go away , heal yourself be back when you are normal self, right, it reminds me soemthing said before
and it don't seem to me to be a perfect way to deal with relationships, okay, i won't be dragging you to discuss this, if enough is enough
Read, I think you'd find that every single person reading this blog is ashamed of how our society provides medical care, especially mental health care, to the non-wealthy.
109: Reject the closet, man. Let go of the self-hatred. Say it with me now! "Say it clear, say it loud: I'm a cat person and I'm proud!"
Late to the thread, but I just wanted to chime in with the other sympathetic voices above. That was some seriously unconscionable fucked-upedness you suffered through, Alameida, and I'm sorry those awful memories are bubbling up now.
My gut tells me you're working through this the right way. (Of course my experience is manifestly inadequate to give any definite advice, so take it with a bag of salt and all of the requisite caveats, ymmv, &c., &c.) But like you said, repression/compartmentalization has been tried and failed, so it's time to try a different tack.
Hopefully the scariness will start to give way as you lean into it with the multi-pronged resources you have at hand: working with your therapist, your sponsor, praying, meditating, writing, working with sponsees, cathartic tears, and all the rest, in whatever order.
At the very least, emotions are not static, so while it sucks to be cooking in the crucible now, know that you can't feel this raw forever. And you've surely been through enough instances of things getting worse before they got better to sense some hopeful daylight ahead. Optimism in this kind of situation tends to be a self-fulfillng prophecy--at least in my meager experience.
Of course I could be talking out of my ass, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it's counterproductive to keep ventilating and listening to your therapist and sponsor. Until someone comes along with better advice, what else is there to do? Always remember that you've got a deep crew of friends who want you to be well. Hugs.
OT: PowerPoint is frustrating. In unrelated news, a PowerPoint presentation of 100+ slides is too long.
So, in order to repress triggering passive homicidal ideation, I've skipped very large portions of this thread...
Al, a few thoughts, if they are worth anything. First, it sounds like you are struggling with some rather heavy duty guilt here. Which, what do I know, but doesn't seem too terribly unusual? A big part of abuse involves convinving you that you deserved it, it's your fault. Hurting kittens and brothers does that, makes you question yourself, why didn't I stop him. The obvious answer is "because you were a kid and your ability to function at all when you are immersed in abuse is totally fucked up." It's super crazymaking looking back from a comparatively healthy psychological state because you judge your reactions based on how you now as a healthy person would react and don't remember, not entirely, quite how messed up your head really was then. He didn't have to beat you all the time to be a constant abuser. The threat that it *could* happen at any second if you said or did the wrong thing is enough to hold you in terror.
As for Mr. Danger, it reminds me of what my psychiatrist friend told me years ago that people have a tendency to recreate troublesome patterns from childhood in a sort of transferred effort to fix what went wrong. So then I think maybe Mr. Danger is maybe a stand-in for the stepdad in the sense of unpredictable danger and maybe you can figure out in this case how to navigate safely. maybe a stretch, but I do think about that recreating patterns thing a lot.
I do wish I could reach through the interwebs and give your hand a little squeeze for courage. Repression is great, but when the repressed things force themselves to the surface, you have no choice but to deal with them head on. Scary as shit, but you've conquered so many demons, you are ready for this.
Oh, and amen to what Di Kotimy just said.
Alameida,
Just found myself here, though I don't even lurk much anymore. Doesn't really matter who I am, but your post struck a chord. I'll offer this, though I don't know if it's helpful.
Your story and mine aren't all that similar, but there are parallels I guess. Unlike you, I had a fairly stable home to grow up in until things went sideways. I had a good run of bad decisions and ended up dropping out of school, leaving home, and ending up on and off the streets.
The streets did to me what they usually did to 14 year olds. I developed some pretty decent substance dependencies and a healthy case of "fuck you, world". I did bad things. Got caught up in some pretty messed up shit with some pretty messed up people. Found myself spending more and more time in rooms full of real hard cases. lifers waiting to happen. syndicate types. angels, the works.
Somewhere in there I developed a rage that started to eat into me. I took it out on objects more than people, thankfully.
One day i decided i had to walk away or stay there and die. Managed to figure out how to do the former; Cut all ties, changed everything, built a new life.
So it's still there though, decades on now. Sitting in a box somewhere I occasionally take out and look at and wonder at.
People did fucked up things to me. I did fucked up things. I don't try and pretend it never was, but i don't spend a lot of time trying to walk through it again. I'm pretty sure it could still derail me.
I don't think your shrink is right to force it. I came up with coping mechanisms then for all that crap, and they aren't ones I want to resort to now. I've been pretty clean for long enough it hasn't been an effort for a while.
Also, the full on crazy parts felt like nothing else in this world I've found. I think a little part of me will always miss that energy.
I think really get what you mean about not knowing what was really fucked up. I still get that occasionally, some offhand comment I'll make about how "that was like when X happened" and suddenly realize I've got a circle of people looking back at me with WTF written all over their faces. But I'm used to not always knowing how to gauge it, and I'm ok with that too I think.
But yeah. Fuck remembering all that shit.
Alameida,
Just found myself here, though I don't even lurk much anymore. Doesn't really matter who I am, but your post struck a chord. I'll offer this, though I don't know if it's helpful.
Your story and mine aren't all that similar, but there are parallels I guess. Unlike you, I had a fairly stable home to grow up in until things went sideways. I had a good run of bad decisions and ended up dropping out of school, leaving home, and ending up on and off the streets.
The streets did to me what they usually did to 14 year olds. I developed some pretty decent substance dependencies and a healthy case of "fuck you, world". I did bad things. Got caught up in some pretty messed up shit with some pretty messed up people. Found myself spending more and more time in rooms full of real hard cases. lifers waiting to happen. syndicate types. angels, the works.
Somewhere in there I developed a rage that started to eat into me. I took it out on objects more than people, thankfully.
One day i decided i had to walk away or stay there and die. Managed to figure out how to do the former; Cut all ties, changed everything, built a new life.
So it's still there though, decades on now. Sitting in a box somewhere I occasionally take out and look at and wonder at.
People did fucked up things to me. I did fucked up things. I don't try and pretend it never was, but i don't spend a lot of time trying to walk through it again. I'm pretty sure it could still derail me.
I don't think your shrink is right to force it. I came up with coping mechanisms then for all that crap, and they aren't ones I want to resort to now. I've been pretty clean for long enough it hasn't been an effort for a while.
Also, the full on crazy parts felt like nothing else in this world I've found. I think a little part of me will always miss that energy.
I think really get what you mean about not knowing what was really fucked up. I still get that occasionally, some offhand comment I'll make about how "that was like when X happened" and suddenly realize I've got a circle of people looking back at me with WTF written all over their faces. But I'm used to not always knowing how to gauge it, and I'm ok with that too I think.
But yeah. Fuck remembering all that shit.
||
We have some friends who went to visit their local occupy* today (we're going to occupydc and stop the machine tomorrow; today was the HD of Anna Bolena). But the real reason that they're going is they're going to meet someone for drinks afterwards that they otherwise wouldn't get to meet. It's a networking opportunity they couldn't pass up! The upper middle classes in action.
|>
I think it's adorable that bob is posting comments from the point of view of his dogs.
OT: I don't mean to complain, but if you happen to be my ex-girlfriend this evening, sending me pictures of yourself in different outfits as you try to decide what to wear to a HS reunion is not entirely the ray of uncomplicated sunshine that one might otherwise think.
Flippanter, I am beginning to suspect that she enjoys your not being over her.
To recount some personal history that doesn't make me look good, and from which no lessons should be drawn because it's probably not a remotely comparable situation, Buck and I broke up (that is, I broke up with him) in our first six months of dating (there were circumstances, it made sense at the time), and I pulled similar shit on him. I was, in fact, not over him, but hadn't figured it out. And then I found five dollars, asked him if he wanted to get back together, got married, and had kids.
Flip, on my way to a HS reunion tonight myself. Didn't email pix to the ex, though I did solicit his opinion on outfits before he left. Yeah, not entirely uncomplicated...
78: Are there sites that aggregate flame wars? How could there not be? But it would be interesting to see some kind of meta-meta-aggregator, where the entire talky part of the internet was divided into countless overlapping subgenres.
Re: Alameida. From everything you've said about your early life, it sounds like it was pretty fucked up indeed. And I say that as someone who experienced a fair amount of family dysfunction, though thankfully not any real abuse. You seem to have gained a lot of wisdom through your many travails, but this is where real life is not like mythology -- you don't just get to pop your eyeball out and then BOOM precognition and its all good. No, if you're really sacrificing your eyeball for wisdom, it's a constant drip of aqueous humor for a long time.
Re: Occupations. Went down there again this afternoon, but no one I knew was there. Don't really feel like getting busted right now, and the push to get tents allowed is happening, so I can't be there. Two of my tents are there. Hopefully not too many people will get nicked.
Re: read. Boring, boring, boring. Haven't we processed through this all a million goddamn times already? So fucking tedious.
Re: Bob's evil dogs. People who don't restrain their dogs from attacking cats, other dogs, or people (listed in order of importance), should be taken out and shot.
Al, that stuff was horrible. Minimizing awful shit is a strategy, but for me it is like an unexploded bomb. Of course, that doesn't stop me from minimizing. I hope you get fully supported in dealing with this. I saw that you're going to Al-anon. I think that is good. Me, I qualify there but still can't relate. My minimization issues. So I just hang with AA for now. All good wishes to you.
(and I had to skim this thread to keep from exploding.)
132: Answer politely. Wait a week or two. Then mail her pictures of yourself in four nearly identical business suits asking her which is best for you to wear to a big meeting. Have your balls visible through the fly in one picture.
Mumble I can't hear you all over the sound of my self-abnegation and punching myself in the stomach mumble.
It's really hard to get any force going punching yourself in the stomach -- the angle's all wrong.
142: Yes, try some CBT instead.
It's easier if you don't have breasts to get in the way. Like golf.
139: With a high-end car casually visible in the background. Pick one that fits a Flippanter with lots of money, not just any old expensive car.
Golf, CBT, and abdominal self-assault. Have there ever been three more similar things?
That depends on what one's mind flashes on when seeing "CBT".
Deliberately misunderstanding "CBT" ranks with "the peasants are revolting" as one of my all time favorite jokes ever.
Re: Bob's evil dogs. People who don't restrain their dogs from attacking cats, other dogs, or people (listed in order of importance), should be taken out and shot.
Bullshit. I drop the leash sometimes. So does most everyone else. The dogs spent their first half-year on the street, and determined a prey animal. They have never bitten another dog, or been threatening toward humans. I do my best. Once a year they either break free, or a cat wanders into the yard.
Keep your cats, or all cats, from eating birds or mice. The idea is ridiculous, isn't it? Keep your cats inside. I did mine. I see more cats become roadkill than dogkill.
The birds and mice are taking their chances. Our cat stays indoors. In my experience it's about 50/50 responsible vs. irresponsible dog owners. I would not miss the irresponsible ones even a tiny bit.
But I don't have a dog in this fight.
We don't have loose dogs in WeHo. We have dogs on super-long retractable leashes that are almost invisible and easy to trip over. I may start cutting them so the idiots can get some exercise in Sunset Blvd traffic.
I sort of want a dog. Just not a good time for one.
Tia, I am very grateful for your comment (90), I've been circling around this and you said what I wished to.
First though: Al, that shit you went through was horrible, no one should have to go through that, and I admire the way you're finding your way through it.
Especially this of Tia's:
All that said, interventions that make sense in one culture may not make sense in another, a good therapist will help you manage the affect that comes up when you talk about the past and I've certainly had experience with a bad one in that regard, and everyone should pay attention to whether their therapist is really helping them get better and not just accept some program.
I'm not going to get into it but after many various treatments and experiences with the mental health treatments available here in Canada, I feel like a bit of a connaisseuse. Third generation high-functioning crazy, much sadness. After bad experiences with meds and (in retrospect) absolute debacles of unskilled fucking irresponsible "let's get all your feeeeliings out and then kind of not know what to do with them", I came down hard on the CBT side and had lots bad to say about anything else. Great benefit from CBT. Then, after having a kid finally, I came to that realization that I do need to deal with some deep shit after all, seem to need to do some crying and screaming and retelling, and had no safe place or a clue how to go about doing that safely. Really a problem. Lucked into working with a woman who works with people to heal trauma - she's old, been at it a long time, volunteers at refugee camps, my shit is not the heavy military shit she's used to dealing with. And the modality she happens to use, on the surface, sounds 1970s and embarrassing, basically psychodramatic bodywork, like seriously unfashionable and dangerous-sounding, and I'd read all those studies about this not working etc. But she's good. Her boundaries and ability to deal ethically with huge emotions are impeccable, nothing gets brought up and left to hang, no coercion, she deals with her own shit too, and I and the other people (women) in this group are getting healthier and stronger and best: I can now have an emotional wail whenever I choose to, safely (I don't feel like I'm going crazy, just wow, big emotion, impressive) and responsibly (I can ask for support from people who are prepared and ready to give it, and I can give support to them too.)
So what Tia said. If you find someone who has good protocols, is non-exploitative and is prepared to take responsibility for keeping you safe and not tossing you out after 90 minutes all in pieces, then learning to release those big emotions and feel big feelings can be safe, and it feels so good to not walk around with this trauma shit anymore, (not feeling anything, or longing for no feelings. I very much identify with what you write there.) If the person knows what s/he's doing. If this is what you are interested in exploring, keep doing what you're doing, testing, caring for your safety, looking until you find the right person or the right way for you.
In my experience it's about 50/50 responsible vs. irresponsible dog cat owners.
I do my best, but I will not keep that tight a leash. They enjoy the walks, the bushes and trees, not the sidewalks 6 inches from my side. Like most people, I use 6 foot leashes.
There is a lot of wildness left in these Carolinas, and they are very strong, quick, and smart. And determined, pulling the leash from my hands. Were the targets humans or other dogs, well, I wouldn't have such dogs.
Outdoor cats are a tragedy in process.
Other people play with their dogs in their front yards, or throw frisbees in public parks. I can't. Fucking predators, they are on 24/7. And very good at it.
Fucking cats like to hang under cars. These dogs are like lightning. It is a fucking drag to have to keep looking in front of them all the time. If I was irresponsible, this neighborhood would be catfree in a week.
When we sit in the parks, they are always facing opposite directions. Predators.
"Outdoor cats are a tragedy in process."
This is true. They sure don't last long in L.A.
Al, the last sentence in the OP is as perfect a description as I've ever read of that situation, and it's been haunting me for the last five hours. Do keep posting and commenting. Even lowly lurkers care.
Maybe they need better training, bob, so that they don't take off like lightning etc. etc.
If your unable to train your dogs, bob, maybe you should take care to hold on to the leash (no matter how long it is). If you can't hold on to the leash, maybe you should tie it to your belt.
161:Pay for Cesar for me. We have been working for a decade now. They are perfect dogs, beloved by hundreds. They have a flaw, that is in the breed.
They love to hunt. I feel horrible about the cats, but I also feel bad that I don't let them go in the woods as much as I would like.
They are just so fucking good at it. Other dogs chase, these guys catch. Field mice, possums, raccoons, squirrels, fucking birds in midflight.
Our cats go out during the day and come in at night. The skinny one is so nervous I can't imagine anything will ever get the drop on him. The fat one is a bit of a bully. Sometimes when he chases the other cats off the property, I feel a little swell of bully-dad pride. It's a slow, relatively boondocksy street, so I don't think he'll get hit by a car. But I worry a little. Still, he'd be intolerable if we didn't let him out.
Mostly he just sits under the rosemary bush, which is good for a number of reasons.
Field mice, possums, raccoons, squirrels, fucking birds in midflight.
We had a spaniel. She had the free run of the backyard which was something over half an acre. She killed rabbits, but they were smart enough to stay out of the yard after the first reign of terror. She killed mice, but that was rare. Mostly she killed birds, probably one two week in season. I never saw her get one and she kept it up even when she was so old that you wouldn't think she could move faster enough.
If cats want to go out, you can't stop them. Ours don't want to go out. If the door is opened, they hide under a chair in case something comes in.
If cats don't want to go out to the ballpark, you can't stop them.
165: Listen, shitbird, don't try to play fuck-fuck with me. You're the depraved psychopath who sets his dogs on poor little cats and then comes on the internet to brag and gloat about it. Like many dog-owners, and Marxist-Leninists, you're a disgusting authoritarian wannabe, glorying in the suffering you inflict. If you are actually too feeble to hold onto a dog's leash for half an hour, give your dogs to someone who can actually be responsible for them, and who won't use them to enact your sick fantasies of hierarchy and domination. Then come back here and tell us more of your bizarre jerk-off fantasies of H-bombs and geishas, moron.
Mm, my cats would have been neurotic wrecks had they not been able to go outside.
Apparently something of an OWS variety has gone on in Times Square. I'm a tad annoyed that the NYT thinks the thing to do is splash Baseball Playoffs! on its front page.
Like many dog-owners, and Marxist-Leninists, you're a disgusting authoritarian wannabe, glorying in the suffering you inflict.
I realize the Natilo writes from actual anger and concern, but that is just a brilliant sentence and should be considered for mouse-over purposes.
Cesium. Plutonium, and Strontium-90 found in Yokohama; gov't tells people to stop using geiger counters.
Interview with Kyoto Professor Japan dealt fatal blow.
You got nothing. You never have anything but your self-righteousness and cowardice. It was an idea, maybe based in ignorance, but Japan survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It may not survive this.
My mom has a dog and a cat. There's a dog door which the dog uses to frequently go in and out, but the cat refuses to use it. Instead, when she wants to go out she waits patiently in front of the real door until someone opens it for her. Her thinking seems to be something like "Well, yes, I realize there's a dog door, but I'm a cat."
Apparently something of an OWS variety has gone on in Times Square.
And, if Facebook is to be believed (a big if, I realize), at least one Unfogged regular was there.
175: Your mom trained her pets to work counter to stereotypes or it just happened that way?
The dog door is probably totally coated around the edges with dog hair and fur grease, possibly slobber. Gross. Wouldn't you prefer to use the normal door? Any sensible being would.
176: Cool. Surprising NY residing Facebook friends of mine are turning out to be serious supporters. This is good. Various yackety-yack venues are mumbling about the danger of 'the Anarchists' derailing just everything!!!, and the fussing is a little much, but that issue apparently gets complicated if you're talking about Rome. Off to read the UK papers, which are rumored to be better about all this.
hi guys! I'm awake but I have a migraine and can't find my hideously expensive migraine medicine so I want to eat a gun, but that is likely transitory and will go away when I find my medicine/have more coffee/lie down under the covers and whimper go to work. thanks for the lurkerish and so forth support. in proof that talking about this on the internet is useful, di is right above, and I didn't realize it. my husband and my friends have been making me swear to stay away from this person once I'm finished with his house, and my business partner doesn't want me to go over alone (and is accompanying me to drop something off this evening) and says she will bust me if I go over and don't tell her. but I can see myself ignoring this good advice not because I want to fuck him but because I'll feel guilty about abandoning him when he's miserable and crazy. I feel guilty all the time for leaving my brother and sister there to divide the suffering between them, but the alternative was not go to college just so I could stay home and get abused more? I moved out that fucking house the day after my 18th birthday. and just left them there. I feel terrible, shameful guilt over it all the time, even when they say it's OK, even when they tell me there was nothing I could do. (my mom did realize there was going to be an escalation with visible bruises and so forth, and sent my brother to boarding school in our town almost right away.) so I feel like I would be leaving my friend alone when he needed me, and it's not acceptable to consider risks to me when making that calculus. STRAIGHT-UP CRAZY. so, thanks everybody. and read, really you gave me one of the best laughs I've had in a while.
Apparently something of an OWS variety has gone on in Times Square.
It can be very hard to tell from the street but it seemed huge. Times Square makes it even harder to guess because there's so much foot traffic anyway. You could tell some people walking through were bewildered Iowans (I think the Times quoted someone concerned she wouldn't make the 8:00 curtain for The Lion King) but it, I don't know, felt like a major event. (Yeah ok make allowances for my affective math.)
People were pretty good about shouting "YOU are the 99%" at the police rather than just booing them or shouting "fucking pigs!"--which I did hear once. Sometimes they chanted "This is a peaceful demonstration!"
I stood next to a 71-year-old woman with a cane and two artificial knees for about an hour--she was telling me that she didn't get social security because she had a teacher's pension, but got Medicare because she was an un-remarried widow and still got her husband's benefits. She also told me the story of her father, an employee of the New York Stock Exchange, who had gone on strike sixty years ago, and how she remembered him going to the kitchen to get pepper to throw in the police horse's eyes when the police charged them.
I stayed mostly on the fringes because when I plunged further into things I got that crush-fear I occasionally get since the Obama inauguration. I'd love to know how many people were there.
good, i always like when people laugh, even if at me
good for you, good for me
i didn't take into consideration that you regard this person as your friend and can't abandon him when he needs you, admirable, but why this friendship would require sex is again beyond my understanding
anyway, and natilo, you are a classic bully to always yell at bob, shame on you and if i bore you you are free to not read my comments as i always said before too
I'd love to know how many people were there.
Prob'ly be a while before we know that with any kind of reliability. Glad you were there, Smearcase.
Hm, the internet thinks about 6,000. I guess that's not huge unless squished into Times Square.
she remembered him going to the kitchen to get pepper to throw in the police horse's eyes when the police charged them
I have no direct experience, but I can't see how blinding and causing pain to a horse would be very much help.
180: My father says something sometimes -- when, say, I tell him about friends' problems that I feel guilty and empty over not being able or competent (e.g., childrearing) to solve -- about not being able to live other people's lives for them.
about not being able to live other people's lives for them.
My dad says to throw pepper in their eyes and run.
I'm always saying, "Dad, just because that's how you avoided a parking ticket doesn't mean it works for everybody."
I'm always saying "Look, if you don't like the [cake/Economist cover story/Scandinavia/remote-control helicopter], I can always put you in a home! Then who'll be sorry for not buying me a car?"
Yeah I felt bad about the horses but I didn't figure I'd edit her story to be about throwing pepper at actual policemen.
Maybe he doesn't know how many homes are corrupt.
He must watch 60 Minutes; he's old.*
* "Your Social Security check is late! Stuff costs more these days! Young people use curse words!"
Hm, the internet thinks about 6,000. I guess that's not huge unless squished into Times Square.
It's no Madrid (60,000, apparently) but okay.
This is the last of the reporting I'm looking at tonight. The Madrid pics are amazing.
flippanter, stop punching yourself in the stomach and being manipulated by your ex. the lurkers totes support me on this in email.
but why this friendship would require sex is again beyond my understanding
it doesn't. I'm saying I'd just go listen to him talk about how miserable he is/tell me about killing people in various mumble mumble secrets I'm not allowed to tell anyone but would like to hand to spackerman mumble to fuck with my head mumble. [/flippanter]
Al, you've got my total WTF.
Man, I've been missing some amazing threads these last few days. I wouldn't even know where to start.
Al, that is super awesome insight and I'm exited for you.
My bro's girlfriend (in med school) came to babysit tonight and Lee and I got a break. My god Lee has had breaks, but it feels amazing to me. Church at 9:30 am tomorrow, though,
I'm half-tempted to stand up and fist-pump at 170.
You know what? I've always wanted to make the following point:
I've known LOTS of people from lots of different cultures, including non-western cultures, and they were wonderful, warm, loving people. I bet everyone on unfogged could say the same thing!
Read is an asshole. Her nonwestern cultural background is not the problem. I bet people in nonwestern cultures would think so too.
170 is ridiculous. Any one of us who eats meat (that would include me and I suspect lots of other commenters out here) does more damage to animals in a week than Bob's dogs probably do in a year. And any cat owner who lets their cats outside is responsible for at least as many animal deaths as Bob's dogs are. These are just facts. The fact that our two genuine radicals end up fighting tells you something about this weird left-wing sectarianism that undermines radical movements.
Speaking of which: any mainstream liberal commenter who can look over the last three years of the Obama administration and not understand that they have a lot to learn from McManus just hasn't been paying attention.
203.1 is ridiculous. Oh, hey, 203.2 is idiocy. It's a perfecta!
Or I guess maybe I'm missing something; should we be learning from the racism or the bloodlust?
Pgd, what has McManus taught you?
202.last is what I kept thinking about all day after I abandoned this thread, damn it. Why do we continue to speak to this person as if she's a 13-year-old exchange student in 8th grade? All of us (probably) have had many close relationships with people from all over the world and know it's not, like, a wacky Perfect-Strangers-esque quirk when someone is repeatedly cruel and unresponsive to clear statements of why something is cruel. But it is my culture? In my culture, we say to depressed people, stop being such a, how do you say, stupid selfish slut, yes? Sorry if it offends but your culture is all stupid selfish sluts, OK?
These are just facts.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
I just want you all to know what a bizarre experience a 20-year reunion is. All these people coming to tell me how I look just the same and they just had to come say hi when they saw me while I desparately squint to read the name tag because I haven't got the first clue who this person is.... I was, however, super excited to see a few old, wonderful friends I wish I saw more. One, in NYC, who extracted a promise of a visit and whom I feel most confident would be glad if such visit included the Mineshaft and Fresh Salt. (So I have decided, in any case.) But now I must sleep as I've promised the ex/not-so-ex boyfriend that we shall go to Mass at 9:00 tomorrow.
So far, the potential for disaster this weekend has been unrealized in favor of things going basically well.
And to the original post, WTF? That was my response when I read your comment, but I don't think I said that in that thread.
ex/not-so-ex boyfriend
Um wait wtf explain? What did I miss? Last I heard this guy was a total motherfucking asshole whose name we were writing down, crossing out, and setting on fire. Not that you owe me an explanation, but I'm... puzzled.
Hmm, not so sure I can explain. Either, in love, I am willing to try to work through the challenges of some acknowledged mental health issues. Or, I am an idiot. I do know he came over today for a bit and it felt good.
(But I appreciate the WTF? Because I do need to make sure I'm thinking this shit through.)
Or, I am an idiot.
By the evidence of what you've said about this here, that's certainly the case. I'm willing (very wililng!) to believe that's an incomplete story, of course.
thanks heebie and fake accent. I've never wondered what kind of fake accent till now. like annoying american people who develop british accents of some sort after 2 years at oxbridge and then just won't give them up? god I fucking hate that. I had a pretentious HS/also college frenemy who did that. I am at work but lying down upstairs in the air-con hoping my head will feel better. team burn shit down is currently up 1 point, having contributed 20mg of valium and 8 tramadol to the situation (still not sufficient to stop the physical pain and at that dose starts to be counter-productive by hurting your stomach). our employee (a lovely person, vietnamese art student) asked me if I was OK because I seemed flat. if there's one thing I love it's LOSS OF AFFECT. I know I'm supposed to be just "sitting in the pain." fuck that. I'm sitting in the robot. sorry, guys, I know I fell down on this one, but if there's anything I am on this blog it's brutally honest. I'll try again tomorrow.
I'm sitting in the robot.
Is it at least one of those awesome anime mecha type robots?
like annoying american people who develop british accents
In this case, Canadian (sort of). My sister claims she can now hear a bit of an accent when I talk, but I really chose the pseud to replace the initials I used for about 5 years but wanted to finally retire. It's not easy to come up with good new pseuds.
Sifu, certainly it's an incomplete story. Whether the complete story makes me less of a fool, I don't know.
Al, one day at a time. It's okay to fall down. Just remember to pick yourself up or ask for help if you can't get up on your own.
I promise I'm definitely not going to kill myself over this. pinky swear. you can't break a pinky promise.
di, I personally think you should cut off contact with ex/non-ex. he hasn't treated you with the love and respect you deserve, and people who start out treating you cruelly only grow worse, never better. you also owe it to your daughter to show her healthy relationships to model, not fucked up ones. fuck, I just pulled a read and implied you are a bad mother. you're not, you're a great mother and I am in awe of your ability to be working so hard at a famously demanding job and also taking the time to do homework with her and spend time listening to her. you're clearly very close to her and have a great relationship. I just mean that she will see as "normal" whatever you allow to be normal. you want her to see that you believe you deserve respect and kindness. because you so deserve those things.
see, I can see this fine for other people but I have a giant blind spot for myself.
I don't develop fake accents but I do find myself very quickly imitating local tonal patterns. It was cute to hear my friend who's been in Ireland for two years ask questions like slightly amused emphatic statements when he visited.
Al, sometimes it's nice to know the robot is there? I dunno. But no need to burn shit down. The robot wouldn't want you to.
see, I can see this fine for other people but I have a giant blind spot for myself.
Oh yeah?
Is it at least one of those awesome anime mecha type robots?
hells yeah. that's why my current hair cut has these long spiky/curly pieces that go down and frame my face. so I can look anime.
people who start out treating you cruelly only grow worse, never better
This is SO TRUE. And it's only easy to see about other people's relationships, because in your own relationships you're thinking, ah, but he's so very sorry and wants to become a better man. Nope! Doesn't happen! Maybe over geological eons of time it happens a little bit but not really, and maybe only after big huge life changes like having kids at that. But keep in mind that he acted the way he acted while still wooing you. I.e., that was him on good, impressive behavior. That was how he wanted to impress you.
Speaking of unimpressive, I was poking around the MyTown.craigslist to see if I am wrong about the weird self-presentation of beaux here, and no, I was right. Typical sample went like, "Hey so I don't have a lot to say I guess, LOL. Im definately a total goofball (need i even say it lol its so obvious) so sense of humor is required." etc. If you're saying it's obvious you're a "goofball" wouldn't you have had to demonstrate SOMETHING goofy about yourself, other than you don't have anything to say? Very awesome. Super-sexy. Yes.
On outdoor cats, my family had an outdoor cat when I was growing up. So outdoor that we didn't even need to have kitty litter for her. My parents had adopted her mom, who was also an outdoor cat and also fairly mean to most people. When the mother cat had kittens, hey couldn't keep all of them, but they kept two. I don't really know where the others went; I think they found people to adopt them, or possibly went to a pound/shelter.
By the time I was born a few years later, the mother cat had died under normal pet circumstances and the sibling of the cat I grew up with had disappeared and no one knew what happened. Once, our cat disappeared for over a week while we worried and then reappeared having acquired a taste for wet food. She eventually became a mostly indoor cat later in life after we kept her inside the house for a couple of weeks after we moved a few miles away and didn't want her to go back to the old house.
When she was an outdoor cat, she and our dog never got along. This usually consisted of the dog getting swatted on the nose from the top of the stairs; the dog wasn't allowed on the top floor of the house where the bedrooms were. In the new house there was no way for them to separate themselves and within a few days they got along fine.
I am not ISO a "goofball." I'm just surprised at what people think is a "goofy" thing to say.
I had guests in town this week who said they met some women in their hotel who said, "I don't even NEED to drink; I'm CRAZY like I am!" We wondered what she thought that meant.
Thanks, alameida. All those thoughts are why I am divorced. I may well be making a huge mistake here (historical evidence suggests... ). He won't be part of her world unless/until I am sure I can model something healthy.
Maybe I am just a fly.
Someone should tell Bob's dogs this is what happens.
ISO a goofball
There's an international standard for that now?
221: you noticed? durrrr. I can't think good. [/pauly shore]
I now envision Alameida as Iron Maiden. (Iron Mistress?) Better than that Robert Downey thing, at least.
Fortunately, the evil alien mecha sheep have not stalked the comment threads for quite a while.
Pgd, what has McManus taught you?
This is a fair question (and the more polite version of 205), so I'll takke a crack. Bob teaches me (or reminds me) of the same stuff I always grapple with when talking with more intelligent Marxists, or reading Marx himself. Simply put, Marxists insist on viewing capitalist democracy as a raw power struggle between classes, not as a procedural debate between participants endowed with equal rights. Liberals (like me) *think* we are aware of this, but the truth is that procedural rights talk is so deeply embedded in liberal assumptions that we are constantly sliding back into it. So it's important for liberals to be reminded by radicals about the real power relations that underlie all the policy wonkery.
The Marxist truth is partial (just like the liberal truth is), and I have little sympathy for the violent revolution aspect of Marxism, at least in the U.S. (Aside from any broader moral considerations I'm selfishly certain that people like me would end up hanging from the lampposts). But that doesn't mean that radicalism isn't an important reminder of certain realities.
I remember saying to some friends that we needed to prioritize card check over health reform, because institutionalizing worker power was more important than getting policies right. Without the power, you lose the policy, with the power, the policy will come. Attitudes and perspectives need to change in this country at a very deep level.
I am anti-violence, and I take Bob's calls to burn shit down as a form of theatre and rhetoric, but you can't think about power seriously without at least reflecting on the role of violence. The New Deal was rooted in the history of labor unrest from 1890-1930s. Strikes are a form of violence -- a minor form, and when the social balance is right they should not be violent at all, but they are an assertion of the ability to upturn the normal order of business in the name of the employed classes. The beginning of the end for the union movement came when the Supreme Court took away the right to strike in most cases, and the decline of the union movement has been a huge contributor to the problems in the Democratic party.
And where radicals really shine is in predicting liberal sell-outs, both because they never swallowed the kool-aid in the first place and they have such a keen sense for the inherent weaknesses in liberalism. Bob called it on Obama in lots of ways, and deserves credit.
Oh yeah -- Bob also made several points on Keynes and fiscal policy I think a year or so ago that were very helpful and have been echoed more and more in the econosphere (about how originally Keynesian fiscal policy included public control of investment). He's made other good points on the econ front.
And the AFL-CIO didn't pay much attention to the changes in technology that were allowing jobs to be eliminated or exported, nor did they figure out a way to appeal to techies. The latter might not be possible given the personalities though.
In any event, they were warned but blew it.
goddamnit. how much fucking valium am I supposed to take before my heart stops beating like a rabbit in a trap? my loyal friend is accompanying me to mcblackwater's to drop off sheets and stuff, he's spending his first night there. not fair because the project finsh date was oct. 31. but staying with his soon to be ex is hell and he can't take it anymore. he says, "what scares me is how out of control my emotions are." this from a person who says he thinks about hurting you all the time is not reassuring.
That's all well and good, PGD, but one ought not let one's dogs tear up other peoples' property. The fact that this particular property is alive apparently makes it okay for you. I think it makes it considerably worse.
I'm all for solidarity on the Left, and if bob wants to go to OWS, or spout bullshit about Marx on the Internets, that's fine with me. But any time people like him get entrusted with any kind of responsibility - even if it's just responsibility for a dog - it ends in sorrow.
I feel like I'm posting on Standpipe's other blog, though. Natilo's 170 didn't require further elaboration.
but staying with his soon to be ex is hell and he can't take it anymore. he says, "what scares me is how out of control my emotions are."
oh yeah. i can relate to this. which is not to suggest it's any less scary. no, in fact, living with the ex-to-be and on the edge of losing it is scary, scary fucked up times. even if he's otherwise a good guy, now is unlikely to be when he's at his best.
I take di's willingness to see the ex as her belief that alameida's situation is improving and that di will need to step into the breech with stories of the crazy.
I always suspected that and I were the same person.
OK, did my thing with the help of my business partner, and got it all done before mcblackwater got home. he did text me to say his emotions are so strong and beyond his control that he's afraid that he's just going to lose it at work and get fired, and that it was hard to "put on a human face" for his colleagues. yeah. so. I realize I feel irrationally guilty for not being there for my brother during his divorce (I was 15,000 miles away with a new baby). just like I always feel guilty for abandoning them. my friend calls me "sis," he always has. I feel like I owe it to him to be there for him while he's going through such a difficult thing. I realize this is not rational, but that's just how I feel.
jesus will, need vicarious drama much? don't you hear this all the time at work? not intended as a criticism, and I know you're probably joking, but I've lost my sense of humor, as I've mentioned. the idea that I'm getting better and you're worried you'll be bored is not funny.
and hi and thanks to tia, and penny. we miss you, tia! but this thread is maybe not making you miss us very much. my husband just told me I shouldn't be writing this on unfogged because someone ill-disposed to me could use things against real-name me. goddamnit.
alameda, believe me or not, i am not ill disposed to you and i doubt our irl lives will ever cross, though i remember back 2-3 yrs ago i even wore a necklace to go to a meetup when you were here, didn't go, felt too tired after work
i am glad you deal with your issues honestly and doing well so far, and if writing helps you to solve your problems, but your husband's advice is a good one maybe, it really needs a lot of courage to do what you do, not everybody can do that
bob is an idealist with the too thin skin who sees the world imperfection too acutely, what if in soviet russia he would have been among the first to go to gulags cz he'd have been crying injustice there too and irritate the party functioners who were like some well adjusted people who would have been well adjusted in the tsarist times too, not all, of course there were idealists too and they ended up in gulags or made excuses their whole life for the sake of the greater good
and i disagree with him on violence too, what good if your ideals incite violence, it's like religion, if it incites violence
it's not worth one's faith, what is more important, a human
life or that, disputed riches, doesn't matter who owns them
for now though one wishes of course it was distributed more
equally, just give everybody a job to do and a roof to live
under will be earned eventually
if everybody contributed according to their abilities and got
according to their needs, what a perfect world it could have
been, just those needs are so widely different it seems again
the selfishness and conscience problem, why one would need
and be able to indulge in luxury when there are mlns jobless
and homeless people right there
just if it's forced violently then violence discredits the
whole equality and justice principle, cz it creates that, power
imbalance, again what to lose, life, freedom or property
if only the rich would give up their riches voluntarily, just
what was earned not honestly, i would refrain from confiscating Steve Jobs' fortune, and there is no need there
too, he earned it all and left all to charity as i read somewhere
so that voluntary giving up of bankers fortunes, agreement to tax increase won't happen unless they are reminded what
ows is doing now, hopefully it won't escalate to violence,
people should be very careful to not allow any provocations
to that
about cats and dogs, the owners' responsibility of course for their interaction not turning into a tragedy, but that doesn't
give permit to yell at bob at any convenient for natilo or sifu time
weird formatting cz the phone, but if it would prevent bored people from reading it it's ok too
I was sorry you didn't come to the meetup, read, because I was interested in meeting you and seeing what you're like IRL. some people on the blog I feel as if I have a pretty good idea of what they're like; LB was pretty much exactly how I expected. others...what's yoyo like? emerson, I think you met him? (possibly violating the sanctity of off-blog communication.)
should I be more careful about what I post, eh, I'm inclined to take risks generally, as has been noted. I generally feel I can shrug off the negative people whom sifu mentions above, though it's clear I can get got when I don't expect it. I do appreciate both the illuminating comments and the single sentence de-lurks to voice support. it makes me feel better. and really I need people to say wtf that's crazy.
what kind of excuses can you make for someone who molests his 11-year-old step-daughter while his wife is in the hospital giving birth to their child? none, right? I mean, he was pretty wasted on coke and bourbon, and he didn't actually rape me, it wasn't the hugest deal, and it was kind of a one-off until 4 years later...see! why am I defending him? there are just no excuses for that, right? but I honestly need people to tell me that because I am crazy. it seems so lame and oprah to be an "abused child," I just don't want that to be true. but it's true. please just continue telling me that's crazy fucked up and wasn't my fault. I obviously need to hear it like a billion times.
or you could just point out that I'm a worthless whore and a bad mother, that's cool too. I'm going to sleep in tomorrow, like I always do, while my maid feeds my children and gets them ready for school, because I'm really ill and need 10 hours of sleep. also, western culture is degenerate.
All of Bob's predictive accuracy is due to his pessimism, not his radicalism.
my friend calls me "sis," he always has.
That would have been piquant, had you ended up doin' it.
232 would make sense if it had anything at all to do with the bulk of what mcmanus says. Taking pieces of several comments over the years and deciding that they form a coherent worldview -- while thoughtfully ignoring the racist, sexist, violent, trolling bullshit that makes up 80 or 90 percent of bob's comments, and while obliviously ignoring the 10 percent or so that say the EXACT OPPOSITE of the positions you would like mcmanus to hold -- does not make you seem like you've lit on the sage corrective to the sins of procedural liberalism. It makes you seem like an ass who hasn't been paying attention and has no idea what he's talking about.
don't ban anyone while I'm asleep, sifu.
You know what pisses me off in this world? The wild wannabes on our team, the awful innocence of those who think that with a little pack hunting behavior and not being as affected as a Pomeranian you can have it all and keep your self-respect and pride and have a few cats on the side.
Everyone is on my case, or scared I am breaking down. I am just getting really pissed off with smug self-satisfied useless canines. Destruction of the habitat, global warming and murderous sheep ranchers. I spect I need a blog break.
One minute they're nuzzling around the midden heaps and the next they're lined up to accompany their masters to underwater Dubai pleasure domes.
Why the fuck should I have to explain how symbiosis works.
You wanna be wild? It's gonna cost ya something y'all will hate yourselves for giving up. That's life. Come up to the north woods with or without your human and see who's prey.
Since di is in my brain, she knows my position on this topic.
Alameida, you know what I keep on thinking about your stories, and your wanting to minimize how bad it was? It almost doesn't matter what actually happened: you had to be afraid for yourself and your siblings all the time in your own house. You weren't safe anywhere. Making you feel that way was evil and damaging enough, no matter what the actual worst your stepfather ever did to you was.
(And not that I have any idea what I'm talking about on this stuff, but it's not surprising at all you came out of with a strange sense of what risks are appropriate to take: living in your house, going about your day-to-day life, was risky. Why should doing the stuff you did in later life feel like anything but normal?)
To any other Terry Pratchett fans out there, I believe 255 was actually posted by "Big Fido".
176: I was near there, but my friend didn't want to go on when the cops said it was dangerous. They were saying that cops were getting beaten up.
Google, google, read, read. Apparently, yes.
215 and 216: I started saying washroom, because that's what my BF says. It's started to seem more polite than saying bathroom in restauraunts.
Just want to join in on the WTF that is crazy chorus - Alameida, as 257 points out, whatever the details, you were made to feel hurt and afraid in your own home (compounded by the fact that the this was done by people who were supposed to be taking care of you.) It was certainly not your fault (neither for what happened to you, nor for what you were unable to prevent happening to your brother) and there are absolutely no mitigating circumstances or excuses (I include past abuse, dependencies, etc. - understanding where a behaviour comes from does not mean rationalizing it) for the adults involved (I include your mother, if she had even the slightest apprehension of an inkling of what was going on.) I mean, WTF?! That is CRAZY.
253: I guess I should have mentioned another thing I learned from Bob, which is that Sifu gets easily butthurt by stuff total strangers say on the internet and nurses grudges about it for years. But I took the spirit of Heebie's question to be what positive elements do I take from Bob's comments that might justify their inciendiary tone, and not an invitation to dig into the details of whatever weird personal thing you have going with Bob. If you want to do that, go ahead, no one is stopping you. I personally have no idea how you ended up where you are and care less, but others might.
265: nah, I just don't think you're very bright, and the particular canard "we have much to learn from the people who try to troll us with racist craziness!" strikes me as distinctly unhelpful. All in good fun, though!
266: exactly right. McManus isn't even a radical. What he dislikes most about the American ruling class is that it's so boring. He doesn't so much warn us about the violence inherent in the system as he fantasizes about it. Saying we have a lot to learn from him is like [personal insult deleted].
Jesus.
Everyone chip in now with the wisdom they learned from Sifu that they couldn't have got from TV.
Am I glad to be back? Are people glad to have me back? Life is hell, I guess.
our two genuine radicals
I don't want to get into it with you about bob, PGD, but I would like to point out that there are people in the commentariat who work with unions (at least one currently, one formerly). Like, actual on-the-ground work.
Am I glad to be back? Are people glad to have me back? Life is hell, I guess.
Yes, you are. Yes, we are. Sometimes it is.
Is there something specific you'd like to know about, Emerson? I recently attended a very cool talk about ants in the Sahara.
Absolutely glad to have JE back.
PGD likes it rough; no surprise he enjoys bob, and is unconcerned with bob's many downsides. I get real value from bob too, although he hates me, because he links stuff I wouldn't otherwise read. I think twitter would be a more natural format for him, far better than this one, but he's not interested in advice from me.
I guess I didn't say it before, but Al that is fucked up shit, and it's not your fault at all. Not then and not now that it continues to affect you.
And Al, your impulse towards charity strikes me as admirable. You're no less of a victim, and the shit is no less fucked up, just because the other folks also suffered from fucked up shit. There's a continuum between understanding, forgiving, and excusing; from afar there's no call to go all the way on that or, especially, beating yourself up for not going all the way (or for not letting go of the occasional smidge of heimlische Freude about how he ended up).
Seriously, PGD, this isn't complicated: Having dogs that kill other peoples' pets, then gloating about it, is Bad.
Alameida warned us in the original post about the danger of rationalizing aberrant conduct, and asked us to remind her that some shit just isn't okay. This kind of shit isn't okay.
Yes, many people eat meat. Many people also eat vegetables, or wear clothes, or type on computers that are the product of exploited labor. We're all criminals. People still should leave their neighbors' pets the hell alone.
Sifu gets easily butthurt.
I'm sorry, but as the official spokesperson for the easily butthurt, I have to note that this is laughable.
Al, I don't have anything insightful to say about this, but let me make some supportive noises anyway. It sounds from afar like you're taking the steps you need to in dealing with this current round of fucked-up shit. Relying on husband, friends, and therapist is a good idea, and you're doing all that. And yes, the shit that has happened to you is seriously fucked up, and it's perfectly fine for you to have whatever feelings you're having, whether those feelings are crazy or not. And the feelings are changing as you travel through life, which is also fine and to be expected. Maybe the shit eventually goes away, maybe not, but it sounds like you've got a lot of healthy strategies for dealing with it rather than reverting to unhealthy strategies.
Alameida seems to have brought the whole world together, for better or worse. Even the ToS is back.
PGD, if you're still about, could you check your old email account, or email me with your current email address?
PGD, 232.1 is well said, but my chief reservation about it is that I can read any number of writers for a reminder about the raw power struggle and violence between classes inherent in capitalism, and the limitations of procedural liberalism. Interesting point about the critical importance of card-check. (N.B. I'm not on the let's-hate-Bob bandwagon. I'll yell at him if I feel like yelling at him, but that's about it.)
N.B. I'm not on the let's-hate-bob bandwagon.
That's probably for the best, because we're already sitting three to a seat, and sifu apparently had Mexican food for lunch.
A bandwagon the size of the whole outdoors.
sifu apparently had Mexican food for lunch
That explains the butthurt*. Speaking of which, PGD, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't around when Bob accused Tweety of beating Blume, only to retract the accusation in some mixed-nuts explanation along the lines of, "I was just kidding. Wait, he started it. Seriously, can't you people take a joke? No, really, Tweety is guilty of domestic violence." I know that many people believe that Bob, because he's Bob, should just be disregarded when he says stuff like that. And no doubt that's true in a "consider the source" sort of way. But it was, even given the source, unusually crass. And having found myself more than once responding to trolls (Hi, PGD!), I empathized with Tweety at the time.
Also, I'm sure that others have already said this, but it seems noteworthy that read most often is cruel to women (as, by the way, is James Shearer, who, classy guy that he is, often argues with the fellas but seems to reserves his most misanthropic and cutting bullshit for the laydeez). No doubt misogyny sits at the core of Mongolian culture, and thus must be respected, but it's still kind of unsettling watching her (or James; is he Mongolian?) pick on the people who have admitted, time and again, that they're really quite vulnerable. Anyway, I probably shouldn't have reopened these cans of worms, but, as I've mentioned below, I'm really stoned and also staring death in the face, so, you know, anything to pass the time.
Oh, one more thing: equating Bob and Nat is just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Leaving aside whether Bob's actually a Republican plant (the jury's out!) or just an odd troll (he's admitted as much more times than I can count!), it's my understanding that Nat is genuinely committed to building (or maybe to tearing down!) a movement. As in, he walks the walk rather than just talking the talk on the internet.
* No doubt I've just stumbled onto the slippery slope leading to Standpipe's blog. In which case, sorry. I'm traveling. Which means that I've taken about sixteen Valium, as I do whenever I have to enter a flying deathtrap that will plummet to fiery ruin an airplane.
I've taken about sixteen Valium
Avoid entering into any home remodeling contracts with shady men for at least the next several hours.
Hmm, it just occurred to stoned me that maybe the episode I mentioned above isn't spoken of any more in polite company, in which case I hope someone will edit my comment down to a series of gurgles and burps. Thanks.
Over the next several hours I'm supposedly climbing to a cruising altitude of 37,000 feet and then traveling across much of the United States. Unless the person sitting next to me is a shady contractor (a contractor of shady shades?), then, I think I should be okay. I do, though, need to arrange for a cab to pick me up when (if) I arrive back in CA.
Even if they are, you can distract them by explaining the whole situation with mcmanus for the duration of the flight.
In fact, you should definitely do that. And report back. What you remember.
Protip: If everyone on the plane claps real hard it won't fall out of the sky.
Ixnay on the cat-killing bullshit from Bob's poison brain. It's hilarious that read wants to adopt all the creepy trolls and protect them from the mean people who object to being verbally puked on.
Regarding the episode you mention above, I figured PGD either wasn't around or forgot about it, so didn't get why Tweety feels the way he does. Also Bob gets hysterical or histrionic sometimes (borderline personality disorder, perhaps), and I tend to take it with a huge grain of salt. That is all.
I tend to take it with a huge grain of salt. That is all.
Decidedly easier to do when you are not actually targeted.
So for the record, I'm sick of mcmanus because he's a reprehensible troll who says unconscionable things about a whole range of topics all the time (I mean, maybe he's stopped entirely; I don't actually know, but the comments from his dogs in this thread seem to indicate that no, he has not). The fact that, you know, he's probably mentally ill doesn't actually make me value the horrible things he says more than I otherwise would. In any case, it has very little to do with anything he said about me personally, shitty as that was.
I don't really know why I'm saying something I've said before "for the record". It's in the record!
293: true. I'm wondering if we can convince him to wedge himself between two seats, Peter Buck-style.
No doubt misogyny sits at the core of Mongolian culture, and thus must be respected, but it's still kind of unsettling watching her (or James; is he Mongolian?) pick on the people who have admitted, time and again, that they're really quite vulnerable.
This always struck me. Perhaps the Great Khan taught his people to go for hurt women first.
I tend to take it with a huge grain of salt
As I said above, this is no doubt the grooviest and most museful way to take much of what Robert says. The thing is, that doesn't work for everyone. I mean, it does for me now*. Because I've evolved, man. But it's just not always an option available to the targets of Boberino's vitriol, as evidenced by people's reactions to his threats to clone his killer dogs and cleanse the world of outdoor cats.
* No, no, not just when I'm stoned. I mean, now as in all the time now. I think.
Anyway, that was all probably way too meta. It's just that I've been struck recently, while hanging around here, that as a Vonny-come-lately to the internet, I really don't know a LOT of the protocols. I mean, it took me a very long time to learn that when someone is attacking you directly or indirectly, you're supposed to adopt a totally ironic and detached devil-may-care persona, as that's the done thing online. Right, got it now, sorry about the earlier outbursts.
ari, i know you are racist and it's obvious from your first words you utter, about mexican food
our culture is not as you say inherently misogynist, our women enjoy much more personal freedom than anywhere in Asia, and our first prez was a woman, when your women didn't have voting rights or what, if you are a historian should know i thought better, and women at unfogged, they are not that fragile beings, they'll eat one alive by their words, just mean by nature i guess, if people guess much worse things about me, i am not accustomed to getting hits and be quiet, i can't stand meanness and say so, if they don't understand apology and peace
Von Wafer, do you need an airport pick-up? I'd be happy to.
I'm not entirely comfortable with the piling-on on either read or Mcmanus, but I don't disagree with any of the explicated criticisms. I still think there is a possibility that both are ultimately sincere, despite bob's declarations of his troll nature, and that read, in particular, has a perspective that she's expressing in an unintentionally offensive manner.
I preëmptively concede that this may be because I'm drunk.
god, spoilt my pretty peaceful and nice evening, shouldn't have checked here before going to sleep
300.last put to the test sooner than anyone might reasonably expect.
I mean, it took me a very long time to learn that when someone is attacking you directly or indirectly, you're supposed to adopt a totally ironic and detached devil-may-care persona, as that's the done thing online
Nah, not necessarily. Depends on who the attacker is. Developing a medium-thick skin is best, though, true.
shouldn't have checked here before going to sleep
Yeah. Probably never's a good time.
And then something like 301 comes along and reminds me that I'm probably being played for a fool.
The only fair way to settle this is for everybody to list how much racism they make.
women at unfogged, they are not that fragile beings, they'll eat one alive by their words
NOM NOM NOM.
308: you are, but that's okay, you're drunk. And thus racist.
You're the great emancipator of unfogged's downtrodden laydeez, read. Got it. Thanks for clarifying.
And Megan, you are, as ever, incredibly awesome (albeit totally oppressed, irredeemably racist, and blinded by false consciousness). But I don't think I'm getting in until 11ish or maybe even after that, and then I have to get to Davis. Not to mention, there's like a 74% chance that the plane is going down, so I'd hate to have you go out to the airport for no reason.
304 was me so that you won't be upset if you agree with me
Not to mention, there's like a 74% chance that the plane is going down
I gotta tell ya, I worry about the way Statistics For Historians gets taught.
The amount of hurt I feel when I'm attacked depends hugely on how much I value that person's opinion. Some attacks are pretty dang easy for me to roll my eyes at.
And in the end
The racism you take
Is equal to the racism you make.
312.1: Could use a bit more of the "devil-may-care". But B, B+.
308: For what it's worth, read gets defensive and mean in her turn when she feels attacked, however much she might have started out meaning well. You can see the (d)evolution in her comments play out. A lot of people get that way when they feel attacked. This isn't a defense; it's just pretty clear as things progress.
I worry about the way Statistics For Historians gets taught.
The guy goes to grad school in some neurosciencey hoodoo type thingy, and within just a few weeks he's already pulling disciplinary rank on the humanists. Somebody should check me for bruises.
(NB: I am a social scientist. It says so on the entrance to the building where my office is located.)
however much she might have started out meaning well
But when it doesn't start out that way, well, that's the problem.
our culture is not as you say inherently misogynist... and women at unfogged, they are not that fragile beings, they'll eat one alive by their words, just mean by nature i guess,... i can't stand meanness and say so, if they don't understand apology and peace
Bless your goddamn thirty hearts.
320: The idea that she might have started out meaning well certainly sounds like a defense, and is also risible.
And Mr. Blandings is also pwned.
I, UNFOGGED WOMAN, EAT YOU WITH MY WORDS!
Well, this was no goddamn fun at all.
If I recall she started out posting russian-language links to russian children's cartoons, leading me to accuse her of being a spambot. So maybe it's all my fault!
(I actually think she might have said something like that along the way. She nursed the unfair-accusation-of-roboticness for a long time.)
(NB: I am a social scientist. It says so on the entrance to the building where my office is located.)
Everybody hopes their class meets in "Von Wafer Is a Social Scientist Hall" because the vending machines have Fritos.
I did sort of expect that picking you up from the airport would involve taking you to Davis. I wasn't planning to kidnap you. I'm still offering if it would make your life easier.
I'm trying to figure out if VW has wifi on the plane, or if he's surreptitiously posting with his phone and at some point soon the flight attendants are going to spot him and there'll be some giant fight and we'll see him in the news as a suspected terrorist.
And in the end,
the fun that Emerson expected to have but isn't,
is equal to the extra fun I'm having.
mr blandings stay out if all this i don't know you and you taking sides in this old "quarrel" seems like, as we say, you are needed here as a dog's fifth leg
you are needed here as a dog's fifth leg, laydeez.
Clearly read doesn't know Blandings's secret identity.
322, 324: I think her initial remarks were pretty amazingly tone-deaf, to put it mildly, and she was walking into a minefield to begin with. It's probably not a good idea to bring this up again; I wasn't around when the thread was first going and only read it hours after the fact.
I don't get that either, Sifu. How long is this flight going to be if it gets into SMF (my airline friend tells me Sac's airport is widely called Smurf) sometime after 11 and he is still able to comment?
You don't know what you're getting into with these unfogged women, Blandings.
336 reminds me: do we need a feature called "Ask The Minefield" or what?
332: You're so mean,
You probably think read's comment is about you.
You're so mean
I'll bet you think this thread is about you
Don't you? Don't you?
Who are you to police mr blandings, read? He has freedom of speech too, you know.
336: wait, you think she originally meant well on this thread?
That seems a little less supportable than the idea that she meant well when she started commenting.
320: I just wanted to make sure everyone read 320. Especially read.
And Emerson, I'm so sorry this came back so fast after your return. I've been wanting to mock economists with you for ages. We could do that if it would be more fun.
344: Presumably, this coïncidence is further evidence that read is an Emerson sockpuppet.
330: I thought you only had a bike? Anyway, I just called a cab. For which you, a CA taxpayer, will foot the bill. Thanks for the ride, Megan!
And no, there's no wifi on the plane, I don't think. I'm still sitting here in the boarding lounge. The people getting on the flight to Sacramento look very different from the people who got in the previous flight, to Dallas, and the flight before that, to Jackson Hole. And now I'm racist again.
Eggplant's hopped up on dieresis.
Christ. Fuck this old quarrel.
Pardon my language.
347: boarding lounge? Well lah-di-dah.
350: it's reserved for the insiders who know that approximately 3/4 of all planes fall from the sky. Select company, donchaknow.
I'm starting a new policy of posting the most immediate thing I can think of, whenever I think we need group re-direction.
348: When you're trying to write a poem
and your pants are full of foäm.
Diaeresis!
Well, I was about a dozen comments too late, because the sizzle has fizzled on its own, apparently, but the new post involved photos and I had to get them off my phone.
For which you, a CA taxpayer, will foot the bill.
Weird. I'm used to being on the other side of that.
if men ask my remarks, why not, i can't stand ari and sifu, first, racists, then what, too exaltated to my taste, talking always either whiny, girlishly cutesy or suddenly become all bullying and agressive, well, if for some good cause, but no, they'll whine or get angry always about some trifle things, what else, ah, if sometimes they'll say something honest and heartfelt, are too quick to turn it into sarcasm and cynicism, hopefully i covered all
jps is going to get the next slot for being a bully i guess, though i admire your humor sometimes
Quick, heebie! Take pictures of more vegetables!
(361 not intended to minimize people's reactions to the various unpleasantnesses, which I think are totally valid. And now I feel like I'm on some Making Light thread of all-consuming earnestness.)
I have no idea how to respond to 357 because she's horrible and should really stop but on the other hand I sort of love the characterization.
very gentlemanly of you, sifu, your blume is horrible too
She's headed off to bed, but I'll be sure to pass that along.
361: Thank God we're in a bowling alley.
I mean, I realize it's a bit late for raisins, at least on the east coast, but whatever. Settles the stomach.
Raisins, hell! This merits a few bags of popcorn.
Holy shit, another hundred comments about me, and I wasn't even playing.
ignoring the racist, sexist, violent, trolling bullshit that makes up 80 or 90 percent of bob's comments
80 90 percent? 80 to 90 percent???
Sifu lies. A complete pathological liar, a sociopath who will smile and play the game most of the time. This...is a fucking clue.
Settles the stomach.
Or at least helps you poop.
Poop comes from within. One hopes.
Would you like me to spend the evening collating my comments over the last week to show that the above "80 or 90 percent" is too far off to be hyperbole or exaggeration but can only be intentional deception? The intent being the destruction of character and reputation?
And y'all like this son of a bitch?
80 or 90 percent. Peruse a thread. I am not the one that is insane.
Not if you have kids still in diapers.
Having children in diapers makes you sane.
ignoring the racist, sexist, violent, trolling bullshit that makes up 80 or 90 percent of bob's comments
Come on you fucking assholes, I am tired of you supporting that sick fuck.
Is that fucking accurate? Prove it.
ignoring the racist, sexist, violent, trolling bullshit that makes up 80 or 90 percent of bob's comments
Is what I supposedly said as bad as this? Is he justified?
Why?
Racist, sexist and violent?
Anybody care to paste one clearly racist comment by me? Just one?
another hundred comments about me
a hundred? another hundred comments?
Poop comes from within. Do not seek it without.
80 to 90 percent, it shouldn't be hard to find a racist comment.
Fuck it, just make one up.
Well, this thread was quite a clusterfuck. Glad I missed it! Anyhow, the key to enjoying our resident crazy people is just to think of them as adding a touch of spicy crazy sauce that livens up an otherwise rational conversation and not to worry too much about it.
385: Yeah. I don't see why, at this late date in the life of the net, why rabid crazies still can provoke more than a sigh.
ignoring the racist, sexist, violent, trolling bullshit that makes up 80 or 90 percent of bob's comments ...Sifu Tweety
Without strong pushback on this from the community, I think it is safe to conclude that this blog accepts as normalized behavior
the act of making up stuff about people and putting the lies out on the internet.
"Crazy"
Is what Sifu Tweety said fucking true?
Do I consistently make racist comments?
ignoring the racist, sexist, violent, trolling bullshit that makes up 80 or 90 percent of bob's comments
No responses?
Fine, that making up lies about people and spreading them on the Internet is Unfogged-approved behavior.
Ok, I don't think the racist thing was fair. Shearer's our only actual racist.
389:"Fair?"
As in there is evidence on one side, and evidence on the other, but on balance....
I want you to say it is untrue. And I knew someone would say "Bob isn't a racist". But that wasn't the "fact" as stated, it was about (a whole bunch of) racist comments.
Did Sifu Tweety lie? Did he deliberately spread an provably untrue fact about me on the internet?
Not around to give you satisfaction; racist and sexist, I'd say is wrong, violent and trolling you'd have to own up to. But I hope (seriously!) you stick around.
You guys should come by The Weblog some time. bob and read are there all the time and somehow shit never gets stirred up.
That may have something to do with the fact that there's only five other people commenting, and we rarely respond to one another's comments. But I do the movie reviews!
Oooookaaayyy...just wanted to voice my support for Alameda and say that indeed, that stuff is messed up: throwing kittens against walls to hurt children--Not OK. Molesting a child--Not OK, *regardless* of frequency or where your mother was at the time.
There are, indeed, no excuses for his behavior. He's fucked up. And it's not your fault.
(and I'm sorry that you have to slog through 100+ comments of...off topic-ness in order to read this.)
what else pretensions i have to the male unfogged, you are cowardly, you allow 3-4 hysterical whiny bitchy, i should add once a dirty word there if people do not hesitate to use them toward me and put them all the time into my mouth as if i said those, irresponsible (whoa, that heebie, wouldn't trust her my hypothetical kid if i am afraid for her kids) nymphomaniacs who can't rule themselves, to dictate your rules and never go against them, never saw such uniformly collectivist minds yet, pretty understandable situation of course it's your world to live in, and you are afraid of being accused instantly misogynist if they accuse me as misogynist, i consider myself feminist somehow, but thank you, CC, JE, Halford, Biohazard, Eggplant, K, who tried to defend me pretty hesitantly i must say and all others who preferred not getting involved in,
the above description of unfogged mind control is excluding alameda, she's really dealing with her complicated life honestly and bravely and i tried to support and encourage
her how i thought it was fit, she asked discussion, i tried to offer my opinion, and if it's got derailed blame equally others who contributed, not only me
i have been trying to continue to be around here somehow, enough, too much honor to wake up at night thanks to this all and if you delete this comment it would confirm all its
assumptions all at once at least for me for sure
thank you read. your comments did not seem initially motivated by a desire to express support; you might profitably consider why. for the record I'm with halford, bob's not racist (although there's some white working class angle that gets in there sometimes), nor is he particularly sexist. he himself has admitted to trolling, and certainly he frequently advocates senseless violence. (the best was the suggestion that the us needed to nuke the japanese nuclear power plant that was melting down; I don't think he'll ever top that). bob links to right-on stuff more than you might think, and I feel personally fond of him as I imagine him walking his dogs around and then coming back to troll unfogged. everyone must admit he is a master at trolling, with skills few other possess, and the fact that people who intend to ignore him on the grounds that "it's just bob" then get sucked into some 100 comment argument with him is a testament to his mad skillz of trollery. he has never attacked me viciously, so perhaps I am being insufficiently empathetic to others in excusing his behavior; if that's so, I apologize. but the blog would be worse without mcmanus. he's like that seaweed and sesame and chili stuff you put on rice, furikake. FROM JAPAN.
read: If you are well-intentioned, you would be well advised to consider not offering your advice here to anyone you have not built a secure, trusting friendship with given that, historically, your efforts to offer advice have caused offense. If you are wounded that the support from the abovementioned people was "hesitant," you should reflect on the fact that this hesitance may have roots in some unambiguously bad behavior on your part in the past. You have apologized, yes, but bear in mind that making amends takes quite a bit of effort and a consistent demonstration that you do not want to repeat the bad actions. I am sure you can rebuild trust here if you are genuinely willing to work at earning it.
I'd take the intended meaning to be something closer to 'groupthink'.
I'm going to start not trusting people with various hypothetical possessions of mine. Bob is totally not trusted around my hypothetical cocaine.
To be fair, neither is Sifu because he's a nymphomaniac who can't govern himself.
401: Liberté! Anarché! Nymphomanié!
I mostly try to stay out of these dust-ups because they're predictable and tiresome with no profit to be had in any of them. But when your argument appears to boil down to sneering and haughtily explaining why people here (substitute liberals, American women/parents, or whatever as works) are intrinsically worse than you, acting all hurt/angry/indignant when you get told to go eat a bowl of dicks does not generate sympathy.
Anyhow, the key to enjoying our resident crazy people is just to think of them as adding a touch of spicy crazy sauce that livens up an otherwise rational conversation and not to worry too much about it.
Count me in with Team Halford and Biohazard on this topic. (With the caveat that it sucks when people say mean things about you. Yea, I'm talking to you Apo!)
Can we stop deleting the ToS's comments? At least he spreads his attacks around.
I mean, will must love that guy. What a basket case!
Sifu hurts my feelings hypothetical vagina.
You know I love you, insofar as that accurately describes anybody non-Blume who I kill time bullshitting with on the internet, but if we're going to go with the whole "crazy assholes are the spice of life" program, why not have the courage of our convictions?
408:
It is a neovagina. Get it right.
And for the record, I like the quote attributed to Betty White:
"Why do people always say to grow a set of balls? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you want something that can really take a pounding, grow a vagina."
grow a vagina
The robot-lovers probably will in a few years.
"your comments did not seem initially motivated by a desire to express support"
"historically, your efforts to offer advice have caused offense."
what if your perception is faulty there, i don't question my intentions, they are always meant to help, to express my opinion at least, and if my opinions automatically offend you, if they are automatically discarded as unworthy of consideration, the problem might be with your thinking too, why it's absolutely out of question to think so?
if you read my first comment, i don't find anything what could be offensive there, i said be less focused on yourself, care more about your kids, just mechanical doing something for them would distract you from your thoughts, so that's our method of child rearing, i really don't get how one can entrust your kids to strangers, even if professional maids, wasn't there a movie about the king of england stuttering thanks to his abusive maid etc
on the other hand, it could be all the progress of the western culture and technology was due to that, suffering inflicted on their minors from the very beginning, just regular practices like leaving their child alone in his/her room, not breastfeeding, leaving their basic needs to be taken care by maids etc, not necessarily any real physical or mental child abuse, if one sees no support and love in his own family, perceived or real, one is more likely to go about the world to try find or built something more than his/ her life, would seek more to change the world, but then is it worth, all the progress and happiness of the world built on the tears of a child as Dostoevsky asked too, no?
our child upbringing is more child friendly and one is secure in one's family and that could cause that, balanced and well adjusted in our own culture and world people who wouldn't have any need to change anything in that, so there are drawbacks in that too
so that is what i think in general and if my opinions are automatically considered unworthy and not trustful to be voiced here just because i'm an outsider and of different culture, and am not perceived what was that, "warm, loving, polite etc ", question your minds, not my intents
really, sifu says i'm horrible and nobody is angered by that, that shows his attitude towards women of color, we are not real women to him to try to hold to at least some gentlemanly standards of interaction, so i say don't yell at me and i won't yell at you, hit me and i hit you back
People who are both abrasive and have thin skin are pretty hilarious actually.
that shows his attitude towards women of color
No, read. That shows his attitude toward you. Nobody gives a good goddamn what color you are or what genitalia you're packing.
if toward me, why to bring into discussion the whole my culture saying it's misogynist, and in my culture it's not polite to bring always your genitalia up into the discussion
you are racists through and through, i'm convinced in that more than ever
412: The robot-lovers probably will in a few years.
The uncanny tunnel.
why to bring into discussion the whole my culture saying it's misogynist
I'm pretty sure that was a response to this work of genius:
this everything should be something about sexual gratification thing, forbidden or not, is really what is off-puttung in the western culture
Also, I have a suspicion you're a white male, but whatevs.
416: Just guessing, but probably becuase you keep attributing your passive aggressive bullshit to cultural differences.
in my culture it's not polite
This conversation isn't taking place inside your culture.
you are racists through and through
Then why are you here?
Then why are you here?
Look, she hates everybody here. She would leave if she could. Why, she'd like nothing better than to never look at unfogged again. But she has to save the babies from the racists!
it is off-putting to me, so why that opinion is unacceptable for you if it's true and mine? you are free to accept it or not, i say my opinion and it's as legitimate as anybody else's to be voiced out
about my culture being misogynist or me being misogynist, if that was true i wouldn't be sitting here arguing with you, very very moving event, cultures clashing here
think about why your culture is arrogant to not consider other cultures as equal and there you have your endless wars
so i have work to do, i'll continue if you all are seeking that much free entertainment at my expense, in the evening if you will
I bet Sifu is like this because he was raised by a maid. Probably a woman of color.
"Then why are you here?"
i'll go but you don't allow me that favor insulting me behind my back and so what to do i have to respond
and no, i don't hate everybody here, i said who i find disagreeble to my thinking and now apo is going to be added to the pile, admirable you are a good friend of your friends, so you are obliged to defend them and it's a pity i don't have you on my side
gswift, you a cop, be responsible for your words, that's only wish i have for you, good luck in your work
Gotta be careful around cops, some of us are nymphomaniacs.
And some are really half-assed about directing traffic.
very trustworthy to police the world, ows, black people, your cops, hope you are not one of them and be careful with the words, you say an unacceptable things, sarcastically of course and that would show what 's on your mind or will be/become reality however sarcastically
i'll continue if you all are seeking that much free entertainment at my expense
In all seriousness, but without thinking this will make any difference at all, no, we aren't. It would definitely be better for unfogged -- and it seems like it would be better for you, although obviously that's not something I would have any special knowledge of -- if you found an online community where you had a better relationship with people and commented there instead. Whatever good relationships you think you have here, your relationship to the site overall is beyond repair, and your presence is overwhelmingly likely to remain divisive and unpleasant for (to a first approximation) everybody. Please go.
414: and then tiresome ensues. Or should.
You are not here for our benefit, read. You'll do whatever you will, but we aren't receiving entertainment or instruction from you in any useful or pleasant fashion.
Actually, Read, I've been interested in and informed by some of your comments in the past.: Megan isn't speaking for the entirety of the community here in any sense.
I do wish you'd stop insulting people, though -- the more you make comments that hurt people's feelings, the more they'll be rude to you in return, and I don't see any prospect of the cycle ending.
Tweety, I know you can tell the difference between read or mcmanus and ToS. And, for the record, your accusation of racism was unfounded, unhelpful, and (worst of all) unfunny.
And, for the record, your accusation of racism was unfounded,
No, it was very well founded. I'm not going to dump a bunch of links because that would involve disabling scripts and googling and a bunch of shit I don't feel like doing, but yeah, it's not even close. The dude has said some horribly racist shit over the years.
unhelpful,
Very plausible.
and (worst of all) unfunny
Basically certain.
437.2:Well, I am glad that's settled
This is your guy, folks.
Lot of nastiness during the 2008 primary season
219
217: The thing is, Obama is not some complete cipher without a public record. He was in the Illinois state senate since the mid-nineties, where by all accounts he was pretty progressive. He's shown no indication of actually being the deranged privatizer of Bob's opium dreams. Bob's case basically boils down to: (1) some of his economic advisers are relatively conservative, (2) he talks a lot about "unity," (3) random people on the internet Bob disagrees with like him. This does not add up to a convincing argument. See Ezra Klein's most recent Bloggingheads on this phenomenon; Obama's basically suckering socially liberal, economic conservatives into supporting a more or less standard center-left agenda...stras
parsimon:Brilliant
Obama's basically suckering socially liberal, economic conservatives into supporting a more or less standard center-left agenda.
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01-15-08 1:26 PM
I do appear to have lost a step or three over the years. Don't know if it's age or burnout.
Maybe you should get metal spring fingers, like that legless racing guy.
Then we can lure B back to commenting again for just one thread, too.
387: Without strong pushback on this from the community
Bob, you cannot be both a troll and a beloved mascot. You must surely know that many of us by now have mostly stopped reading either your comments or anything that refers to them. Though, amazingly enough, I see you still have a few defenders, "the community" is not waiting in the wings like a cloud of flying monkeys to be let loose upon those who offend or "misinterpret" you.
They are, admittedly, waiting in the wings like a cloud of flying monkeys, but not for that purpose.
waiting in the wings like a cloud of flying monkeysWelshmen
Read: I had a really happy childhood, and I'm close with my parents and siblings, and have a really wonderful marriage, and adore my kids. I hope to raise my kids the way I was raised.
We need to invest in an Unfogged War Eagle.
Alameida, throwing kittens against the wall is completely WTF. Also, there is no excuse for doing anything to an 11-year old, especially when her mother is in the hospital. Your step-father was a monster and I'm thrilled that he died in such a horrible way.
I've really enjoyed the responses to the trolls. The co-opting of song lyrics is fantastic. 318 was my favorite:
And in the end
The racism you take
Is equal to the racism you make.
I've been trying to work out an on-point joke with the phrase "Tartar control" in it, but am coming up empty.
428: The lady was a cop too? Or did you mean "satyriacs"?
428: Heh. That was front-page news for like a week when it first came out.
