Greenwich Village? What is this, 1956?
For a certain type of Catholic, it's always 1956.
Oh, man, my mother is totally willing to believe that two women (like, for instance, two religion teachers at different Catholic schools) can live together platonically with only honi soit qui mal y pense type responses, though I don't know whether she's convinced herself that that's what Lee and I do. Certainly we've got plenty of the sin of scandal going on here at minimum, though at least no contraceptive use!
(My pre-coming-out conversation with her when I was a teen yielded "If you're a lesbian you'll still be Thorn and we'll still love you, but remember that any genital contact outside of marriage is a mortal sin.")
What about if a man is platonic roommates with two beautiful young women, and pretends to be gay to fool their wacky landlord. Is that a sin?
I swear to god, Three's Company was one of their examples. The guy even hummed a few bars of Come and knock on my door...
So yes. They clearly affirmed that Jack Tripper was doing the sin of scandal thing.
The Roman Catholic church certainly knows a lot about the sin of scandal.
I could very much relate to parts of the conversation.
I can't say I do.
Debating the minutia of morality is completely foreign to you?
3.1: Maybe you should use contraception once in a while as kind of a performance art political statement. Or to test whether two sins make a right. Call in to the show and ask.
Actually! I forgot about this part: in the examples of when it would not be a SIN of scandal for two people of the same sex to live together, he said "Or perhaps the two older women who have been roommates for decades because they would otherwise be lonely." !!
9: It sounds like debating the minutiae of dogma to me.
Mumble casuistry mumble Sermon on the Mount mumble reasoning to hierarchical ends makes a mockery of humanity's leveling in Christ something Protestantism something.
It sounds like debating the minutiae of dogma to me.
The "sin of scandal" stuff, sure. But I thought heebie was saying she could relate to the guy whose mother is being courted by flaky New Agers? I think it's possible to sympathize with his distress, even without belonging to a Catholic Answers-type God Squad.
The host sounds like a true fanatic, though.
14: Here you go Flip if you need help, from the show's host: Catholicism FOR DUMMIES. And don't miss John Paul II FOR DUMMIES, Saints FOR DUMMIES, and Women in the Bible FOR DUMMIES.
Catholicism shares many beliefs with other Christian faiths, as well as certain prayers, but Catholicism puts its own spin on things.
I thought heebie was saying she could relate to the guy whose mother is being courted by flaky New Agers?
Okay; but the trouble for the son, the caller, in that case has little to do with morality, I would think, and more to do with the mother seeking medical treatment (if the idea is that the flaky New Agers are advising her against that). I don't see what it has to do with the son being the only Catholic left in the family. It's certainly possible to sympathize.
Further to 18: Oh wait. Maybe he's afraid his mother, when she dies, won't be able to receive the final sacrament. I sort of forget how that works.
Bave has heard me tell this story a kajillion times, but I went to this kind of idiotically reënvisioned staging of La Sonnambula, an already somewhat moronic opera beloved of the kind of opera fans who really do not cotton to fancy directors and their newfangled ideas. So the production team comes out at curtain calls and there is hearty booing and then some reactive loud applause and I actually witness a near fight breaking out and these two gay guys yell at two of the offended traditionalists "go back to Long Island!" and they yell back "why don't YOU go back to GREENWICH VILLAGE! Where you're FROM!"
So yes, it is still 1965, and Greenwich Village is still shorthand for, well, everything that's wrong with this country, where men aren't real men and directors have no respect for the delicate nonsense of Felice Romani.
Maybe he's afraid his mother, when she dies, won't be able to receive the final sacrament. I sort of forget how that works.
Well, I'm no theologian, but I see no reason why his mother couldn't receive last rites if she asked for it. Presumably he is afraid that she won't ask for the sacrament, having been lured away by the Angels Bearing Messages people.
More broadly, though, and to return to heebie's "very much relate to" point: when people are terminally ill, they are of course vulnerable to quackery, to promises of quick fixes, to stories of "miracles" and of "miracle" diets, and so on. This guy frames it as a Catholic issue ('my mother, a lifelong Catholic, is now talking to these flaky New Agers about Angels Bearing Messages'), but we could easily imagine 'my mother, a lifelong atheist, is now talking to these flaky New Agers about Angels Bearing Messages,' surely?
21: Yes, and IMX when people are terminally ill they are also loaded up with an assortment of meds that can make them suggestible and irrational. Someone needs to buffer them from the nuts.
22: yes, agreed. But who is there to buffer them from the catholics?
Isn't Catholicism founded on angels bearings messages?
"Or perhaps the two older women who have been roommates for decades because they would otherwise be lonely."
But at some (early) stage in the history of their living arrangements they hadn't been roommates for decades, and were presumably guilty of the Sin of Scandal (which I suspect this prat has just made up). So after how long a cohabitation did they cease to be scandalous, and was it retroactive?
The sin of scandal is a very real and pernicious doctrine. It has been used forex as an excuse for covering up abuse.
25 - clearly if they started living together before 1956 or 1965, whichever is correct, then lesbians hadn't been invented, and so it would have been ok.
But basically he is saying one can live with one's parents, on one's own, or with one's spouse, and that's it? How stupid.
Heh.
re: 27.last
How else to resist the temptation of teh sexxx0rz?
28. Shhh... Nobody tell the Pope that it's possible to do it and then go home.
Of course, if you lived by yourself you might just wank all the time too ...
||excerpts from the post-break up text barrage:
I hope you die. Fuck you and your spoiled kid.
Good. How about you take 10,of those sleeping pills and do the world a favor you fucking cunt. I was right in high school when I dumped your ugly ass.I hope your kid abandons you and you get to live out your fantasy life of solitude. When she figures out what a morose miserable bitch you are, she probably will.
When you die, I am going to come to your funeral so I can,spit on your face. You lied to me and put me through so much bullshit with your crazy I won't ever be the same. Fuck1 what am I doing. How can you love you,and hate you so much. ,
Leave you alone? You meanike you abandoned me as soon ,as I actually stsrted to believe you loved me. Fuck you. I hope you jump in front of a train. And it only paralyzes you.
I will feel like I accomplished something. Rid the world of one more crazy bitch who insists she isn't crazy.
posted here because he professes to be Catholic.
|>
Jesus Christ. What the fuck? What the hell is wrong with that asshole?
Oh man, that's awful. Thank goodness you're done with him.
Rosalyn, call the cops and get a restraining order.
No words. So sorry you had to read that shit.
What the hell is wrong with people? How difficult is it to treat one another with a modicum of decency?
Oh, that's so horrible. I hope you don't regularly torture yourself by rereading them.
37: Not to torture myself, but to make goddamn sure I never forget why he is out of my life and irredeemable. No, we won't stay friends.
That is horrible. And I second 34. He sounds dangerous.
34,39: I do have good reason to believe it's not necessary at this point. But if any of those reasons change, then yes, I will take necessary precautions. His history before me does, in fact, suggest the potential for him to turn dangerous.
But basically he is saying one can live with one's parents, on one's own, or with one's spouse, and that's it? How stupid.
You left out the dormitory model, living communally with members of your sex under very close supervision. Low-level samurai lived like that. Soldiers. Women's hotels. Nunneries.
Half hour to conversation with possible boss. First, I'm not sure we even will discuss salary, as I may try/he may try to push it to when they can actually make me a job offer.
I've seen some wildly different numbers on the webs, and don't know what to use as a base. The APA has a salary survey, but details are behind a $175 membership paywall. They say that a the 25%tile planner in MA make one figure (call it X), but they also say that for someone with less than 3 years experience, 25%tile is one third of that last figure. Salary.com (is this reliable at all?) puts the median planner I in MA at even higher than X. (I'd be happy to use numbers, I'm just not sure it's kosher here). Since I'm finding the median to be higher than X, should I aim even higher than that?
Is it worth putting out the $175 to get access to more data? It's probably only going to give me more confidence to have a straight face when I open with the number higher than X, if I'm forced to go first. I think this field for entry level really does ave a 30k swing in what is offered.
For our honeymoon, Chicken and I went to India. It was a hard experience for me, much better for her. Part of the badness for me was delhi belly, making much use of the thunder bucket, but also haggling. I hate haggling. It gets my dander up in a way nothing else does, and I hate that.
His history before me does, in fact, suggest the potential for him to turn dangerous.
Huh. I'm not sure that a restraining order is either necessary or useful yet, but real people who know his name and location know that he's been threatening, right? Because they should, just in case things get worse.
I'd be happy to use numbers, I'm just not sure it's kosher here
Everyone should always post how much they earn.
43: I'd pony up for the data if you believe that it is, in fact, relevant and comprehensive enough to be useful.
Is it worth putting out the $175 to get access to more data?
The value of the data could potentially be far higher than $175, if it prevents you from taking a low-ball offer. Accepting a starting salary that it too low can dog you for the rest of your career, as no-one ever wants to give you too much of a raise over your previous position. Its one of those things about employment that is grossly unfair.
Do you to have to join the organization after you get a job anyway?
Thanks.
Ok, I'm at 15/hr now (40/wk), as a paid intern. At another intern gig I made 17.5. Much better than working at the bookstore/other non professional jobs I've had, but not really a middle class, professional wage. At 50 weeks, that's 30k.
APA says that the 25%tile for planner in MA (the 12th highest paying state) is 60k, but that the median for less than 3 years is about 45k. Salary.com says Planner I in MA ha a median salary of 65, which is a lot higher.
That being said, I'm pretty sure Planner I at the place I am now gets around 45, and that seems to be a figure that message boards agree with.
Also, the posting asks for a BA and 0 years experience, and I have a MA and 2 years. I'm pretty sure they actually wouldn't give the job to someone without a BA, but I can say that I shouldn't get the bottom of the range.
So do I ask for 60, which I can do with a straight face? Or 70, as salary.com says that is a bit over median?
And, with two minutes, I don't think I'll get the data in time, oh well. If I postpone that bit to next week, for sure.
Ask for 60 and naked pictures of all your coworkers.
See what a negotiator I am! I brooked an agreement between Moby.
Roslyn, IME you may not have enough from just that to get a restraining order, but save everything just in case. I know all a restraining order can really do is give someone a papercut, but it sends a message and it creates a paper trail and both of those can be helpful, though the whole thing sucks so much. Breakups can be dangerous. I wish I didn't know so much about that.
Ok, reporting back:
I was able to channel my Jack Doneghy because he almost didn't let me get a word in edgewise. And he gave me more than a bit of leverage for next week if I get an offer.
He started by telling me how great I am, and how much he thinks I bring to the office, and how I compliment their staff, and can make their product better. He also mentioned that the client that needs to give approval knows about me, and wants me to get started on the project as soon as possible. So if they get approval, he'll kind of need to seal the deal.
Thank you all again for the support!
So as he told me about the terms, he said something along the lines of "I will offer 50, which is in line with the salaries of other consultants they have, and I should probably say no more". I just didn't say anything. Maybe he thinks all this week that I agreed? I certainly didn't. I was silent. Now if he offers, they will have won the project, and I will have a ton of leverage.
Now I'm going to talk to my dad and in-laws who are old negotiators, and get their opinions on strategy.
Ok, about my f-i-l's inner Jack Doneghy powers, because this is an awesome story:
He was helping Chicken purchase a car. After having the salesman show them the car, etc, they retired to the salesman's office to finish negotiating. They got to some number, and the salesman, as is their want, went to talk to the boss to "ok" it. A classic maneuver.
My f-i-l, who is a little antisocial and putoffish to begin with, always is an imposing character. Also, tall, distinguished looking and carries himself as an important person, which he is. Also perhaps a little aspergersy, in that he gives one the sense that he couldn't care less what someone thinks of him. (He is really a very good person, and I like him a lot; he's just a weirdo.I like weirdos).
Anyway, while the salesman is out, my f-i-l decided he wanted to check what the bluebook value of the car was, so he goes to the other side of the desk and looks on the salesman's computer. Meanwhile, the salesman comes back in, and doesn't know what to do, so sits on the "customer" side of the desk with Chicken. Both Chicken and the salesman are kind of flabbergasted. Anyway, my f-i-l doesn't even look up; he makes the salesman wait while he finished looking online, and then looks up an makes a new offer. The only thing left would have been to put his feet up on the desk. Maybe start smoking a cigar.
Be assured, they got a very good deal.
*boggles at 31*
That's awful. I'll echo everybody else's wish that you're taking care of yourself.
31: Wow. Well, that should help steel your resolve when the inevitable "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it" message arrives.
Were the texts in 31 sent in a state of extreme intoxication?
That's not exculpatory, of course--they're vile--but it would at least be partially explanatory. Intoxication+heartache makes some people into monsters, IME.
61: He didn't sound intoxicated when we spoke on the phone a short time before that all started. But who knows? Let's just say "probably" because I don't fucking care.
Also, yay or nay on forwarding that garbage to his friends. Let's go with the motivation being 83% pure spite and vindictiveness, because fuck him and 17% maybe they can convince him that he needs serious fucking psychiatric/psychological help. Unless he's just actually evil, in which case 100% spite and vindictiveness. These are people I will never see again, so.
Nay, just for practical, self defense reasons. His friends might could possibly urge him to seek psychological help, but he will definitely be even angrier with you, and this might be what tips him into doing something besides threatening violence.
Besides, the sooner he is out of your mind, the better.
Absolutely nay. And I'm so sorry that happened.
If you show his friends, they'll show him and he'll know you are paying attention to him. That's not what you want him to be thinking if you want to get rid of him.
64: For various logistical reasons, there is no chance of actual physical violence.
But I guess I'll let it steep in my drafts folder for awhile.
68: Really, any clear sign that you are listening is going to be taken as encouragement to either spew more spite or to try to get back together.
Agreed, no forwarding to his friends. Clean breaks are best. Whether he gets help should no longer be of any concern to you.
Agreeing with everyone else here and suggest you just delete the messages and focus on peanut-farming and Amy.
Because of my cell phone aversion, I don't really know the ins and outs of texting. You can block texts from a number, I presume. Does it bounce a "you've been blocked" message back to the sender?
What 70 said, and I wouldn't count on whatever the logistical reasons are. Not that I'd be immediately worried about violence, but he's clearly screwy enough that it's something worth considering, and anything logistical that you're counting on as protection could change. This is someone you want to disengage from and hope he forgets your name as soon as possible.
I know when you try to call if you've been blocked you get a message roughly along the lines of "Sorry motherfucker, she's not talking to you." I don't know what it does as far as text messages.
Congratulations, you've united Unfogged in group comity!
This is someone you want to disengage from and hope he forgets your name as soon as possible.
This would require breaking off certain other contacts (just the one, maybe?) as well. Not exactly fair to that other person, but. Yeah, may be what I need to do.
Print out the texts, make a YouTube video where you read them aloud while commenting on other aspects oft his unacceptable behavior, and then shoot the shit out of his phone (which you've stolen from him somehow).
77: Excellent! I've always thought myself a uniter, not a divider.
I'm sure you were all right, and I'm sure I'm going to wish I'd listened.
If that means you're getting back in touch with him, either positively or negatively, really, really, really don't.
Nope. The bridges have been incinerated. But I did send the email.
What's done is done. But there's no reason for you to contact him or his friends again, ever. Right?
Vindictiveness won out. I get that. I don't generally go so far as to act on them (because of being a huge avoider), but I surely have vindictive impulses.
I'm with the restraining order and no (other?) return contact. (If there's a restraining order, doesn't the subject have to be notified?)
I do sincerely appreciate the concern, but I know I don't need a restraining order.
ATMATITATG, a new, obnoxious feature here at unfogged.
Now I just need to figure out what to do about a 20 year friendship with his sister. Which I think is just going to have to be collateral damage.
RC are you asking for advice or do you just want people to listen to you talking about making shitty decisions without saying anything?
Boy, it's really annoying the shit out of me, I tell you what. I will go ahead and close the window.
Actually, I was expressing distress about a distressing situation. I didn't ask for opinions on the necessity of restraining orders. I did ask about the email, but I went with my own impulse, anger, judgment, whatever. If my email was a shitty decision, so fucking be it. I didn't know venting here was a binding obligation to adhere to the consensus decision. Sorry for wasting your time. I'll stop.
Ask the mineshaft and then ignore the advice that's given.
Oh. 9/10 times, you would be insane to take most of the advice that's given here, so ATMATITAG is usually a wise move.
This was that 1/10 time, because the advice was right, but whatever, what's done is done and time to move on. People make mistakes, shockingly EVEN in relationships. Honestly, it's not that big a deal. Go out and do something that gets you out of your head, cut off all ties, and move on. Good luck.
I only regret that I've caused Sifu so much pain.
99 nails it.
Generally restraining orders are good for leads after we find your body and that's it. Stalking injunctions and protective orders are the ones with teeth, as in violating them gets you a trip to jail.
This, For various logistical reasons, there is no chance of actual physical violence seems unlikely unless you live in an island fortress or something. Whatever though, what's done is done.
9/10 times, you would be insane to take most of the advice that's given here, so ATMATITAG is usually a wise move.
Tell me about it. You people would have gotten me slapped or arrested by now if you'd had your degenerate way.
RC, even if you don't feel the need to obtain a restraining order at this moment, please reconsider if you receive another threatening or violent message. Don't wait for a third time.
what to do about a 20 year friendship with his sister
I'd say let her get in touch with you.
You people would have gotten me slapped or arrested laid by now if you'd had your degenerate way.
102: In a certain sense, as related to this situation, I do kind of live in an island fortress. LB's right that logistics can change, but I'd have lots of warning if they did.
103: If there are any further threats, I promise I will seriously consider protective measures. Honestly, I read that garbage as verbal cruelty -- vile, vindictive, detestable words -- but not a threat to take any action.
104: We already had plans to get together in a couple of weeks that I canceled. I guess from here I just let it lie.
106: As I said, I've done the protective order thing and it sometimes is worthwhile. If there are any threats of any sort toward Amy, I'd think that would make it a good choice. Also apo speaks truth in 104.
Oh hells yeah. Even a vague insinuation of harm to Amy and there would be no fucking around. Now, whether that would mean some sort of protective order or just straight out vigilante mama fucking grizzly justice, I can only speculate.
Hey, I appreciate all the input and, well, just the company and a place to vent. Thanks all. I think I'm gonna go take one of those sleeping pills -- just the one, as prescribed -- now and call it a day.
Now I just need to figure out what to do about a 20 year friendship with his sister.
She is *overwhelmingly* likely to side with him. And he doesn't seem to like you very much anymore. So, this problem will probably take care of itself.
Ugh. So sorry RC. FWIW, I thought those texts should be sent to somebody, though not necessarily to his friends, vindictively.
As far as the not taking of advice -- that's just the joy of being alive, innit? Much better a forum where advice is ladled out and eaten or left as easily as porridge than no porridge. And now I ban me.
For analogizing advice to porridge, in case that was to twee to be clear.
Q: How is advice like porridge?
A: They're both better if received somewhere other than a Turkish prison.
Q: How is advice like porridge?
Oliver Twist needed more of both.
Really sorry Ros. I'm of the opinion that a certain degree of assholishness in breakup conversations is forgivable, given the emotions, but this goes way beyond that. Keep your resolution about not letting him back into your life, and find something to distract you.
83
... The bridges have been incinerated ...
We can only hope. How many times have you broken up with this guy now?
I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. I can only sadly shake my head. Sigh. Virtual hug.