The article has a weirdly moralizing tone, but the findings of the study sound interesting.
He's right that Samoan children are astonishingly competent and helpful. On the other hand, they get beaten a lot, and kill themselves frequently in adolescence. It's not clear to me that this is a good tradeoff.
Count me among the moralizers. This doesn't describe the way I was brought up, let me tell you.
You know what drives me crazy, although it's more of a working-class thing? The behavior of parents and children on the bus. First of all, wtf is up with these gigantic strollers. I guess if you're driving around in an F-350, it's just whatever, but if you know that you're going to be on the bus, just get a normal, folding stroller that only takes up like 1.25 cubic feet, folded! Also, the thing where the parents put the kids on the bus, and then stand there dithering about the payment, so the kids run around and choose their own seat, which is invariably not where the parents want to sit, so there ensues a bunch of back and forth yelling and what not. What the hell? Just keep your goddamn kid with you until the fare is paid and you can accompany them to a seat of your choosing! Also, the tendency that many young mothers have to hoist their 1 or 2 or 3 year-old up by one arm is just disgusting. If you can't get it together to pick up your baby without risking serious injury to him or her, then you shouldn't have any fucking kids in the first place!
Middle-class people are worse though.
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I find it hilarious how many of my clients can sing along to the jingle for JG Wentworth.
"If you get long term payment, but you need cash now, call J.G. Wentworth, 877 CASH NOW."
It *is* kind of catchy. Luckily none of them have structured settlements or other annuities.
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5 -- I've been wondering how many people can possibly have structured settlements. Since the answer can't be THAT many (but maybe not; worker's comp?), JG Wentworth must be making a fortune off of each individual sucker who signs up.
5: Oh, man, I saw a seventeen year old kid sell a structured settlement payment last week in court: I guess he needed the court's approval because he was a minor (I was waiting for my case to be called). And he was so getting taken: he was getting maybe half the value of the payments, and he wasn't in dire need of fast money, he was going to buy a car. He seemed like a nice kid, and I felt terrible for him.
The gigantic strollers are crazy. My cousin's kid had a really tiny umbrella stroller, but even my sturdy, bigger stroller from the 70's was much smaller than the current ones.
I saw a really big one the other day (in the style of the big strollers) which had triplets in it that could have run me over.
6: The kid I saw was med-mal: he'd had heart surgery when he was ten and they nearly killed him leaving a sponge in his chest.
Can we refrain from using pause/play this early in a thread? There are plenty of older, active threads going right now.
Sorry, heebie. If it's any consolation, I didn't really think that anyone would respond.
Is it possible that this has to do with family size getting smaller? If you've got more than one or two (or whatever x) little kids, it seems impractical to have them depend so much on you.
I feel very out-of-touch on this topic, because I can think of one time when I've witnessed such a spectacle, and I was incredibly judgmental, and it was twenty years ago, when I was in high school or so.
Is it possible that this has to do with family size getting smaller?
That makes sense, and I think it has been argued. Another probable source is the development of middle-class Anglo-American ideas about childhood starting in the nineteenth century and gaining influence over time.
Anyway, there's a big literature on this, with which this study seems to be pretty consistent overall (although I'm not very familiar with it). The innovative thing about the UCLA study seems to really be the methodology, not the findings.
8: Now, obviously, if you have twins, or just a couple of kids under 2 or 3, sometimes you're going to have to get a gigantor stroller. But still.
More to the OP: I did see this trend developing with my sisters, who were both born in the 1980s. The whole "kids need to be chauffeured ABSOLUTELY EVERYWHERE, including destinations mere blocks away" really perplexed me at the time. Why not just walk the 4 or 5 blocks, especially if it's a nice day?
Among my friends with kids (most of whom are still pretty little), even the least helicoptery among them are WAAAAAY more kid's-convenience-focused than the parents of anyone I grew up with.
Among my friends with kids (most of whom are still pretty little), even the least helicoptery among them are WAAAAAY more kid's-convenience-focused than the parents of anyone I grew up with.
Essentially everyone I talk to says this, and it's this part of the story that I'm more interested in than, say, whether middle class US children are more or less independent than 5 year old Papua New Guinean hunter gatherers. Or, more precisely I wonder how true it is. My personal pet theory is that most people recall their own "childhood" as a pastiche of images that are mostly centered on being about 7-10 years old, such that adults have an unrealistic sense of how independent they were as very young children, and are thus inclined to overstate the decline in childhood independence, so that, even if middle class US kids have gotten less independent in the past 30 years or so, people are inclined to seriously exaggerate the differences.
But the last time I floated this pet theory here it took a pretty strong beating.
We've gone over this a bunch of times: current parenting standards require that children be in the presence of a responsible adult at all times until early adolescence. They can be in a different room, or outdoors right near the house where the adult is, but there has to be a specific adult supervising them literally every moment. There's a little flex in this, but not much, and you can actually get in trouble with the authorities for letting your kids be unsupervised in ways that would have been unexceptionable in my childhood.
I think this leads to some of the behavior in the article: kids can't behave well all the time. They can run wild out of sight, and then shape up when an adult is paying attention. But if an adult is staring at them all the time, then it's not a special circumstance requiring good behavior, and you get a fair amount of bad manners.
I am with you in 17, and your sense of how well people remember their childhoods. But I'm troubled by the linked article because it seems to make a case that we treat our kids like simpering idiots, which is not my perception of the kids I see.
17: No, it's a big difference. In third grade, I walked home a couple blocks from school to eat lunch. A couple days a week, Mom wasn't home, so I let myself in with a key. I remember a particular day when I'd mislaid my keys, but hadn't packed lunch. I did have a quarter, though, and I could get a bagel for a quarter if I walked ten blocks (probably could have gotten it closer, but that was the place I knew). None of this did me any harm at all, but I'd be at risk of getting the authorities involved if I let my kids wander like that at the same age.
Perhaps it is we who are the simpering idiots.
But I'm troubled by the linked article because it seems to make a case that we treat our kids like simpering idiots, which is not my perception of the kids I see.
A lot of that seems to be the reporter's characterization of the study's findings rather than necessarily being reflective of the findings as a whole. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.
I don't actually know how this plays out in terms of manners or behavior: maybe kids these days are as well-behaved as they ever were. But there's a real difference in the amount of attention and supervision they get.
20: What kind of onion did you tie to your belt?
I wonder to what extent there's an urban/suburban divide on this. Stuff like LB's 20 is really only possible in a dense urban area, so changes in parenting standards may have been relatively recent there but have taken place much earlier in the suburbs.
When I read the link, I was of course outraged at the children in the examples, but I'm pretty sure this is just exaggeration based on resentment because I was neglected to an abusive extent. I can't ask anyone for help doing anything, to a pathological extent, because I'm terrified of being accused of being weak or needy. Part of me wants to kick the "Untie my shoe" kid in the shins, and the other part is jealous because it's like asking to be groomed. Touch me, show affection toward me, do something to show you're thinking of me. It's unimaginable to me that someone would ask that of anyone. But all the people I know who are able to form dyadic relationships are constantly asking for little piddly shit like that.
I mean that one *should* feel comfortable asking loved ones for piddly shit. Hand me that pen. Close the window. Etc.
25: Not all that dense. Wally and the Beaver probably biked home from school in suburbia. But you're right that no-sidewalk suburbs bordered by high-speed roads make it impossible for a kid to do anything except go to a neighbor's house without adult help.
Regarding gigantic strollers, my beef is with the two-seaters that are arranged side-by-side. Why? Front-to-back would take up the half the sidewalk width, plus it gives two types of seating options: the action-packed front seat and the nap-tastic shady back seat. Choices!
And I agree with LB, despite not being an urban kid. We were left alone for hours and hours with no supervision while parents were at work.
We've got a side-by-side fold-up umbrella stroller. I just thought it seemed nice to put them side-by-side.
We also have a ridiculous huge double jogging stroller, but only when we're really outside in a park and not annoying other people.
One thing that I notice in my own parenting is that there's often a fairly long time lag between what my kid is capable of doing and when I realize she's capable of doing it. For example,there was a good amount of time where she just couldn't get a pullover shirt on by herself, so I just got in the habit of putting on her shirts, and it sped things up in the morning. Eventually I realized she could just do that herself, but there was probably a gap of at least six months between when she could have put on her own shirt with just a little prompting and when I stopped helping her. And I try pretty hard to make her do things herself when she can -- it's just that her development was moving faster than my habits.
I suppose if I had 10 kids the need to be all "just put on your own damn shirt" would be greater, but I'd bet the perception gap would still be there.
27: This makes me feel a little better: I do wait on my kids some (although the untie-retie the shoes thing is weird), but I also ask to be waited on some ("Pour me a seltzer while you're up?"). And I was feeling a little defensive about it, but that's a very warm framing for that kind of thing. You're right, it feels like grooming.
I agree with LB. I think the differences are quite pronounced. Perhaps not so much in the under-5 tranche, but for the 6-12 cohort it is way, way different.
Things we could do as 6-12 year-olds that you almost never see middle-class kids doing nowadays:
*Walk or bike a couple of miles to park/library/movies
*Go swimming at non-lifeguarded beaches or park pools by ourselves
*Randomly go over to friends' houses and play with whoever was around that day
*Stay home alone for longish periods of time
*Have entire weeks during school breaks without planned activities
Additionally, I feel like the chore expectations were a lot different. I was doing my own laundry from the age of 10, doing heavy shoveling/raking/lawn-mowing from 11 or so, cooking actual food on the stove from maybe 8 or 9, going to the convenience store to pick up things for the family from 7 or 8, painting, moving significant amounts of stuff up and down stairs, that kind of thing from 12.
I do not think the difference in degrees of autonomy, for most middle-class kids, is being over-stated.
it's like asking to be groomed. Touch me, show affection toward me, do something to show you're thinking of me.
This is is actually probably dead on. The same way that complaining about exhaustion substitutes for "I need emotional support" sometimes, this could be the child-flip-side of the same phenomenon. "Spend your energy reserve on me."
33: It kicks in with the second kid. All that sort of self-care moves wildly faster (in my one relevant experience) with kid two. Probably only works when they're pretty close in age, come to think, though -- it's largely about modeling by the older kid.
Kids behave differently with their parents and with other kids. Watching kids with parents is not at all a complete picture. I didn't read the study, did they address this?
38 is super true. Everyone regresses around their parents.
My experience hanging out with my ex's kids was constant exhaustion, which he complained about too, because those boys were the world's most demanding children about little tiny things. But they were super-polite and sweet about it. They were all sweet smiles and pleases and could you maybe just do this thing that I want you to do please? And it was obvious they did it because they wanted to know they were loved, every single second of every day, especially while going through a confusing and miserably ugly divorce.
Things we could do as 6-12 year-olds that you almost never see middle-class kids doing nowadays:
*Walk or bike a couple of miles to park/library/movies
*Go swimming at non-lifeguarded beaches or park pools by ourselves
*Randomly go over to friends' houses and play with whoever was around that day
*Stay home alone for longish periods of time
*Have entire weeks during school breaks without planned activities
I grew up in the 70s/80s, and except for breaks without planned activities (and a VERY limited ability to bike to a local park), none of those things were true for middle class things my age, at least until you got to age 12 or so. Definitely not an 8 year old. In part it came from being in a car-focused city, but still.
They can be in a different room, or outdoors right near the house where the adult is, but there has to be a specific adult supervising them literally every moment.
You must have said this before, but wow. I grew up in the late 80's / early 90's, and I wandered through the nearby creek and park, walked the more than half mile to the toy store, etc., well before adolescence.
38, 39: Although there aren't a lot of contexts where children have responsibilities to do anything useful outside the family. I mean, they have to behave themselves in school and do schoolwork, but it's not like they're organizing clubs where they build clubhouses, prepare food, and clean up after themselves in their free time.
Also, childcare by children. Everyone thought it was totally normal for the older kids, even when they were not that much older, to take an active role in caring for the younger ones. I remember many, many occasions when I was 6 or 7 or 8 where the two kids I was friends with who were only 2 years older were given responsibility for me for hours at a time, often on the aforementioned trips to park/library/lake/movies etc. Since I was 5 and 10 years older than my sisters, respectively, I wound up being in charge of them a lot. The anecdote I was telling the other day about my parents going on a date night and coming back with a record and leftover pizza happened when I was no more than 13, and my sisters were 8 and 3. And I was in charge of them for hours. Frequently. I assume some 13 year-olds are still babysitting, but it seems a lot less common. I dunno.
42: Adolescence was an exaggeration: Newt's been pretty free-range for a year or so now, and he's ten. But we're well on one end of the spectrum, and we're getting away with it partially because he passes for older pretty well.
@25
I don't think it's all that urban specific.
I grew up in the suburbs and when I was in 3rd grade (that's what, 7 or 8 years old?) I walked or biked to school which was about 30 minutes away on foot (don't know the distance).
Also, my friends and I would spend most of entire days playing around the neighborhood or in the fields that were behind our (terrible cookie cutterish, now I think of it) housing development with no adult supervision beyond "be back by X o'clock."
My impression is that that's pretty unheard of in UMC-land these days.
25,29:I don't understand this thing you call "suburb"
Here there are sidewalks everywhere except on the main drags, which themselves have wide enough verges for people to safely walk, and are walked. As is the entire neighborhood constantly walked.
Yet still there is an incredible traffic jam twice a day down at the elementary school.
As far as the main article:narcissism. See TLP.
It makes me feel bad for kids growing up now. Sure, my parents were strict and banned the watching of certain things on television, including MTV. But we were home alone several hours a day after school, and this was pre-V-Chip, so we got to experience the full shitty decline of MTV in real time.
41: Oh, for real? Huh. Partly it was growing up in a very stable, bucolic, lower-middle to mid-middle class neighborhood in a fairly low-crime city, I suppose. Although Minneapolis' first big crack gang murder was discovered after the body was dumped in a park about 5 blocks from my house.
I assume some 13 year-olds are still babysitting, but it seems a lot less common.
Yeah, when we moved into our building with a new baby, there was a very nice family with an eleven and a nine year old girl, and we spotted them as potential babysitters in a couple of years, figuring when the older one hit thirteen, she'd be ready, and then two years later her sister. Didn't work: the older girl sat once or twice, but her parents were freaked out about it.
20: In third grade I was in a new suburban public school. I walked to school a decent distance, but they had very strict rules about not leaving the school during the school day. I don't think that there was anywhere near the school to buy food anyway, but still.
and I could get a bagel for a quarter if I walked ten blocks (probably could have gotten it closer, but that was the place I knew)
God, I bet it was a really good bagel, too.
This is only sort of what anyone else is talking about, but I find it hard to combine the amount of going-on-foot I want to do (ALL OF IT ALL THE TIME) and Jane's glacial pace. Hence she gets stroller'd and pack-carried a lot more than she would like. Going without a stroller seems to work a lot better for people who drive almost all the way to their every destination.
41.last feels exactly right to me. I've asked Mrs. K-sky, who grew up in a similar milieu to you, whether she even had kids in the neighborhood she could play with, and she didn't -- well into high school, if she hadn't made plans to play with a friend during the week, she might be facing a weekend at home with nowhere to go. Whereas I didn't have much in the way of friends to plan with, but could often scare up a kickball game with the neighbors, at least until it devolved into screaming rule debates.
I could do all the things quoted in the list in 41, too. I definitely walked to and from school from age seven on.
It was awesome. Maybe I got a bialy: the bialys there were also excellent. I miss that place. They closed for Jewish holidays I've never heard of since, and I'm saying that as a woman who was the only person at a deposition who knew how to spell Tisha B'av for the court reporter.
I used to get in trouble because I'd take three hours to walk home (about a mile) because I would be reading.
54 -- yes, on further reflection, it's probably largely a difference between areas where kids mostly play within a fairly small neighborhood in which the parents know each other, and where they don't.
Or maybe more like traffic issues? If there are no destinations that wouldn't involve crossing a highway, that's hard for a kid.
It is true that I was in a very favorable position w/r/t playmates. There were two other boys who went to my church within a few house radius (one my age, one two years older) and a family with 4 kids across the alley who had a boy my age (he's the one who became a Communist butcher in NYC). Then there were about 3-4 other kids of similar ages nearby who I was on more or less friendly terms with, but not super close. And at church there were half a dozen other kids who were my age and lived in approximately the same neighborhood, who I hung out with occasionally, mostly when we were at church, but also for birthday parties and when our parents were hanging out and stuff.
No, I think mostly the former. There were no highways to cross, the problem was that there wasn't really a random neighborhood kid's house you could just walk into in easy walking distance (though there were plenty of houses).
I'm trying to think if there was anywhere that my parents regularly had to drive me. My grandparents lived relatively far away, I guess. I'm sure I'm forgetting things. But in general school, friends' houses and activity locations I walked to.
53: This sort of thing totally depends on how far you're going, what your time constraints are, and so on. But if you invest six months to a year to wandering along at glacial toddler speed, you can develop a kid into a pretty adept pedestrian by three, three and a half or so. We were ideally physically situated for this, with playgrounds and stores close enough that toddling to them was possible even if frustrating for an adult, so it's probably harder than I think it is. Still, if it works for you, it's very rewarding being speedy and stroller-free with a preschooler.
(The netnanny has now noticed the sex thread, and locked me out. Curses.)
First of all:
By studying families at home--or, as the scientists say, "in vivo"--rather than in a lab
But if you invest six months to a year to wandering along at glacial toddler speed, you can develop a kid into a pretty adept pedestrian by three, three and a half or so. We were ideally physically situated for this, with playgrounds and stores close enough that toddling to them was possible even if frustrating for an adult, so it's probably harder than I think it is. Still, if it works for you, it's very rewarding being speedy and stroller-free with a preschooler.
I do do specialized on-foot trips to the places that are close enough, or for part of the trip, but we're usually talking over a mile's walk, and I just don't have it in me to do that at her only-just-two-year-old pace.
Three blocks? Sure! Eight blocks? Okay, sometimes. Twelve blocks? Nnnnng.
If you're doing three blocks lots, and eight blocks reasonably often, I bet you're less than a year from Jane being able to do a mile or two at a totally reasonable walking pace. It's frustrating while you're getting her to that point, but while it's a long time in terms of hours, it's pretty short in terms of months.
66: Someone finally got round to saying f***, I think.
I did everything in Natilo's list in 35, and I started walking to school by myself when I was 6.
When I was 12, I babysat quite a bit, including one regular gig taking care of 3-year old twins and their 18-month-old brother.
If you're doing three blocks lots, and eight blocks reasonably often, I bet you're less than a year from Jane being able to do a mile or two at a totally reasonable walking pace.
I think you're right, and I am very much looking forward to it. And in the meantime, we also seem to be instilling in her a sense that walking is the desirable thing you "get" to do when your cruel parents let you, which is OK by me too.
71: It was me. If you want to go in and change it to f***, I endorse that.
Nah, I can wait till I get home to read it. And it's not always profanity that triggers it, so there's no assurance that would fix it.
Goddammit, I hate how cab drivers are all totally dependent on GPS now. I'm tempted to tell this one to stop "recalculating" and let me use my iPhone map to tell him when to turn.
76: It's especially maddening when their GPS is dictating a longer, more irrational and more expensive route than the one their passenger is telling them. Funny how in those situations so many will become deaf to anything but the soothing tones of Madame GPS.
Despite my earlier suggestion of an urban/suburban divide, it sounds like there's something more subtle going on. It also sounds like things have changed much more recently than I had realized; I walked to school throughout my childhood, and was also able/allowed to walk to various other locations in our suburban area.
it sounds like there's something more subtle going on
My guess is that it's mostly a function of perceived neighborhood cohesiveness and safety, and that much of what's going on is that fewer and fewer people know their neighbors and their neighbors' kids well.
My guess is that it's mostly a function of perceived neighborhood cohesiveness and safety, and that much of what's going on is that fewer and fewer people know their neighbors and their neighbors' kids well.
Reflexive distrust of all strangers goes along with reflexive distruct of the government goes along with desperate clinging to close family.
I grew up in the seventies in MC-UMC AMerican car-centric suburbia and the eighties in mass transit-centric European urbia going to a MC-UC private school. All on that list were true in both places. The only difference was that in the urban European one I relied on buses and trams rather than a bike and commuted to school on mass transit rather than school bus/parents. Both my parents worked, and through age ten they had an arrangement with non-working moms of kids my age in the neighbourhood that they would keep a vague eye out on me and made sure I knew both work phone numbers and the houses I could go to if I needed an adult. That's about it. By age twelve I was being left alone for weekends. Babysitting ended at age seven or eight. At the school in Europe kids were commuting from the other side of the city by mass transit starting in first grade. This included the mostly UMC-UC formerly suburban American kids.
My guess is that it's mostly a function of perceived neighborhood cohesiveness and safety, and that much of what's going on is that fewer and fewer people know their neighbors and their neighbors' kids well.
That makes sense. We knew our neighbors pretty well.
67 is exactly right.
I trust very few no representations of human behavior.
This post is a story about a story, and interesting mostly in our own reactions to it.
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No, it's a big difference. ...
I agree with LB. And it's not just fear of strangers. No one wore bike helmets or used child seats in cars when I was a kid.
84: My brother and I were the only kids in my neighborhood wearing bike helmets. Unfortunately, my mom took safety a bit too far and also insisted on bright orange safety flags that stuck up six feet in the air, which meant that when the other kids were teasing us about the helmets and the flags, and we tried to pedal away, we were especially easy to follow.
My downstairs neighbor just got hit by a car and cracked his skull riding without a helmet (he'll probably be okay, he was walking and talking immediately after the accident, but they took him to the hospital and found a skull fracture.) Stupid thing: he had a helmet, rode off without it, got a couple of feet and wheeled around to go get the helmet. A cab was flying up the street and got him. (We refer to this guy as SuperBuck: he looks kind of like Buck but thirty pounds of muscle heavier.)
So, wear your helmet. And don't cross the street unexpectedly.
Stupid thing: he had a helmet, rode off without it, got a couple of feet and wheeled around to go get the helmet.
See? If he hadn't worried about wearing a helmet, he would have been fine. Shearer wins again!
After I was 10 or 11, I remember being trusted to go around to friends' places on my own during the day. This coincided with when I started taking the bus (public transit) from school to my mom or dad's offices so I could get a ride to swim practice, which was held at a pool without an easy transit connection. I generally didn't go places on my own after dark, though.
By 13/14 I was going on 10+ mile hikes on my own in the hills.
I get disproportionately upset when I see people biking without helmets. I'm not sure why, although in part it's maybe because I've taken several spills where the helmet hit the ground first so I feel particularly enthusiastic about their usefulness. Less charitably, I kind of figure the people who don't wear helmets make that choice for fashion- or heat-related reasons, and I think both of those reasons are laughably dumb.
Yeah, back when I was biking regularly, there were a couple of times the helmet was very very helpful.* Glasses helped once too, but the scratch was so deep I had to get new lenses. I think professional cycling has finally managed to get people to wear helmets on flat stretches and descents, but I'm not sure about the climbs.
*Although my favorite crash remains the time I went over the handle bars, landed on my feet somehow, then turned around to watch the bike finish flipping over.
I get disproportionately upset when I see people biking without helmets.
Me too, because I'm morbid and picture their gruesome demise. Especially motorcyclists. Also dogs in the street not on leashes.
I started wearing bike helmets in my early teens. I don't remember them from my elementary school years. I've never gotten into ski helmets. Never owned one, and the only times I've worn them was when going out for a day of off piste stuff that involved skiing down rock sided and studded chutes and stuff like that, and then only when with a guide, though that also meant I'd be doing stuff I wouldn't dare to try on my own.
I get disproportionately upset when I see people biking without helmets.
I used to, and it still grates a bit, but I've now almost completely transferred that anger onto people I see without lights at night.
The reason I've tried to resist my anger--aside from a general "no enemies to the left" view about cycling--is that this page basically convinced me that focusing on helmets has only trivial positive first-order effects on safety, and quite possibly large and negative second-order effects (by discouraging wider ridership, which mandatory helmet laws certainly do, and deemphasizing the key element of safety which is having cars not hit cyclists). I think we already had this very conversation on the blog, though I'm too lazy to find it.
Also, the Germans laughed at me for wearing my helmet all the time. An honest accounting would probably acknowledge the causal impact of this on my shift in beliefs.
A few years ago there was a "Helmets Make You Less Safe" article in the NYT Magazine end-of-the-year Ideas section that observed that cars drive closer to people wearing helmets, presumably because they think they're better bicyclists. Sometimes I attribute my inconsistent helmet behavior to that article. Other times I admit I like a hat.
I know I've said this before, but kids where we live walk to school, since everyone lives within a mile of the four schools. I mean, there are buses for the littlest, but at least one of Alex's preschool classmates was routinely dropped off by a sibling who looked to be about 7. But of course almost all our actual neighbors send their kids to schools outside the district that require driving. I love the idea of Mara walking to school, and the intermediate (grades 3-5, so for her ages 9-12) is definitely close enough that I'd be comfortable with that. My grade school was a mile from where we lived and I think we were usually driven there but walked home in a clump of kids from the street, shepherded by anyone who'd hit double digits for age.
Mara has been outside playing with neighbors all week and right now she's in the next room with the eight-year-old we have for respite (and more honestly to decide whether we want to adopt her) tonight watching videos. It was so cool to have someone else reading Mara stories tonight and doing art with her. We ate dinner by the river, let the girls run around like howling maniacs on the ramp to the restaurant when no one was around, then took them to the park to tire themselves out and I walked home with them after. Something like this is the kind of life I want for my kid(s), though the nature of foster parenting means I'm all up in their business all the time.
I used to, and it still grates a bit, but I've now almost completely transferred that anger onto people I see without lights at night.
I never have lights at night. I know, I know.
and right now she's in the next room with the eight-year-old we have for respite (and more honestly to decide whether we want to adopt her)
Wow.
I thought I was up-to-date with your blog, but now I see I wasn't.
Anyway, now I'm curious to hear how it goes! Sounds exciting!
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Where's apo's gloating comment on Duke? Now I'm afraid he might have succumbed to auto-erotic schadenfreudization.
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I'm pretty sure they're both asleep now. This would be the first time Mara's fallen asleep alone in bed, though Talia's on the upper bunk and Lee is probably asleep on the couch in there too. I've been downplaying this a little on the blog and not mentioning it here because to some extent it would be ridiculous to have another kid already, but on the other hand she needs a home and is smart and sweet and awesome and great with Mara.
Plus oh my god, they need to just send her to me so I can teach her to care for her hair. Her foster mother's idea of being sensitive to her special biracial needs was to give her a container of blue gel and a brush that she drags through from the scalp down, ripping as she goes. (That's not actually bad, given what I've heard from other homes where hair care gets totally ignored.) I don't care if it's a dependence thing; an eight-year-old with coily hair is too young to be doing all here hair care herself. But she was intrigued by Mara's flat twists and asked me to do something like that, so maybe I can see what I can do.
And I'm posting here rather than the kink thread because we've clearly chosen marginally queering the standard domestic sphere but otherwise being boring as hell. Lee was supposed to go out to the bar down the street to hear a friend's music and was too tired, even though I was offering her free drink tickets from my trivia triumph. Pitiful!
||
The Kony thing seems to have taken a turn for the (even more) bizarre.
|>
Holy shit, Lehigh. The school's webpage won't even load.
||
That Rutgers case verdict came in, and guilty on all counts, which, well, surprised me. The jurors' explanations are awkward as well.
Also, I imagine appeals galore.
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108: dude totally fucked up (besides the actual events) by not taking the appeal. and while it surprises me too, screw that guy. i hadn't seen juror explanations earlier, but will check it out.
I fell without a helmet, but landed on my arm. I think that had lost my helmet and didn't have the money to pay for one.
I would *never* ski without a helmet, but I'm not good, so..
Sorry, catching up on this thread Sat morning, but in case it never got mentioned: the scars riding closer to helmeted cyclists thing was a really crappy study. IIRC it included self-reporting of distances, and the average change in distance was measured in inches.
My personal rule with helmets relates to my own personal speed - if I'm doing errands around the neighborhood, never getting above 15-20 mph, then I'm not docking around with a helmet (esp. since I'd be taking it off/putting it on at every stop). Basically the European model. But if I'm going farther and faster, then I wear the helmet because I'd like not to get brain damage in event of practically any mishap (tire catches in a rut at 30 mph downhill, not much you can do but pray).
FWIW, in thousands of miles of riding over the past 13 years, I've had only one accident of anything approaching severity, and it ended with me skidding head-first into a telephone pole. I rode immediately to a bike store and bought a new helmet.
Y'all know that helmets are A. only good for one (serious) impact and B. only good for a couple-few years, right? The styrofoam loses its ability to absorb shock effectively.
Bike ownership is of course much cheaper than car, but proper maintenance is a much much bigger proportion of cost of ownership*, which is annoying as hell.
* well, until the car tops 100k or so.
but proper maintenance is a much much bigger proportion of cost of ownership
Unless you do it yourself, which is far, far easier than it is with a car.
Anyhow on helmets: I always wear one because given what I'm in school for I'd never live it down if I got a closed head injury. That said, they're about the fifteenth most important thing you can do for bicycle safety. It's much healthier to ride without a helmet than not to ride at all. (We have definitely talked about this on unfogged before.)
I'm trying to think how much I've spent on bike maintenance (as opposed to bike acquisition/upgrading) over the past year. Thirty dollars, maybe?
We have definitely talked about this on unfogged before
Yeah. We can talk about other things we've probably talked about before, too. Such as my other bike-observing pet peeve: when people have their seat too low. Frighteningly common, and I wish there were a way to intervene: "Sir or Madam: did you know you could be light years more comfortable? And faster? And you could see traffic better?"
I gather it's the inclination to get onto the seat right from straddle position, because it feels safer to be able to touch the ground with your feet while you're on the seat. But golly, what a shame.
my other bike-observing pet peeve: when people have their seat too low.
I'm with you on that one, man. So terrible!
Me too. It pains me to watch someone try to pedal that way. But I also feel that way when I see people on those particularly badly designed hybrids, where they're having to struggle so hard with every pedal stroke.
I also get annoyed when people seem to be pedaling wrong (with their heels directly over the pedals).
120: oddly enough there has been a bit of a fad lately among roadie nerds to move the cleat way back on the shoe, so it looks almost like what you're describing. To wit.
I think it's kind of stupid, personally, but there are those who swear by it. Allegedly it means you have to use your calf muscles less, but I have giant, glistening calf muscles so why wouldn't I use them?
Also interesting, from one of the links that comes up in the search linked in 121, the thing about styrofoam in helmets degrading is sort of a myth:
Actually, there's no evidence that there is any deterioration in performance over time. I am attaching below the response we typically send. Deterioration is generally a function of use, and so helmets in warehouse storage should be fine after several years. However, while the standards and improvements over time can be significant, it makes sense to shop for newer models.
The Snell Memorial Foundation recommends the following:
Why should you replace your helmet every five years?
The five-year replacement recommendation is based on a consensus by both the helmet manufacturers and the Snell Foundation. Glues, resins and other materials used in helmet production over time can affect liner materials. Hair oils, body fluids and cosmetics, as well as normal "wear and tear" all contribute to helmet degradation. Petroleum-based products present in cleaners, paints, fuels and other commonly encountered materials may also degrade materials used in many helmets possibly degrading performance. Additionally, experience indicates there will be a noticeable improvement in the protective characteristic of helmets over a five-year period due to advances in materials, designs, production methods and the standards. Thus, the recommendation for five-year helmet replacement is a judgment call stemming from a prudent safety philosophy.
Personally I would recommend a helmet manufactured in the last one year or so as you will be getting the most modern design/functionality and then in another 5 years you will be ready to replace it again.
-- Michael Grim
Specialized Helmet Manager
I was just going to say that the thing about replacing helmets is bullshit. But I guess I don't have to now. Instead, I'll say that I think masturbating in public while vandalizing cars and making viral videos about African dictators is probably still kinky, even in these fallen times.
Also, the point about maintaining one's bike is a good one. The cost of tools one needs is very low. The cost of a used stand is very low. The cost of other supplies is very low. And it's very easy, even for a hack like me. Barriers to entry: low. Risks: low. (I mean, what's the worst that happens? You have to bring your bike to the shop after all.) Rewards: high. That said, I think there are a few things that it's worth paying other people to do, but I can't really remember what they are. Even building and maintaining wheels is pretty easy, though time-consuming.
Every time I've ridden on a properly adjusted bike, my muscles fatigue super quickly. It tires my arms, back, and thighs. Every time I've sat with the seat too low and just stood up whenever I need more power, I enjoy myself.
Also my car isn't tiring at all.
But I'm also the person who finds it more tiring to walk than run, and more tiring to stand than walk. So all bets are off.
Speaking of bikes, I need some advice, Mineshaft.
I'm thinking of making an indulgent purchase for myself. I've narrowed the choices to (in descending order of expense) a road bike, an iPad 3, or a compound bow. What say you?
Not thighs. I meant quads, in 125.
Every time I've ridden on a properly adjusted bike, my muscles fatigue super quickly. It tires my arms, back, and thighs.
I feel like the second sentence belies the accuracy of the first. Like, if your back is getting tired, the handlebars should almost certainly be higher or farther back or both.
127: just think of the fun you could have using all three simultaneously.
PDBS seems like a more congenial location for the bike than for the bow. Depending what you'd want to hunt.
Do you want to enjoy yourself outdoors?
Do you want to spend more time online?
Do you want to kill things?
It's hard to choose just one.
Sometimes you can kill a squirrel with a road bike.
131: PDBS is surprisingly congenial to archers. There is even a woodland practice course with popup targets. I would have to join a club that is mostly gun nuts, though.
130: any two out of the three, too, if you think about it.
That said, I have a hard time seeing how the costs of those three items are even remotely in the same ballpark. For example, the most tricked-out iPad shouldn't cost more than a grand, right? But it's really hard to see how you'd get a nice* road bike for less than that price, and most of what I'd suggest would cost twice as much (used). As for a bow, I don't really know what those cost, as I use my wits and hands when I'm ready to kill.
* Yes, I know.
133: Jose Gonzalez's version (perhaps the original?) of that song is really very, very beautiful. Also, what does Flip have to do with that video? Is he one of the hawks?
I can only assume that the invention of an activity that combines parasailing and falconry is his fault somehow.
127: I looked at a iPad3 yesterday and was underwhelmed at the improvement over the 2.
So, I say compound bow. If you have one of those you can acquire bikes as you wish without kicking up an immediate fuss.
127, 136: (in descending order of expense)
Von Wafer doesn't even see parentheticals.
136: quite right that the bike would cost a lot more. That's playing a role in my thinking. There was a little something extra in my last paycheck, but fleur would prefer I not spend it all on myself.
The price difference between a top of the line ipad and a good compound bow is less than one might think.
141: If you have one of those you can acquire bikes as you wish without kicking up an immediate fuss.
iPad3s as well.
You might want to take a close look at 136.last, Stormcrow.
143: do you like cycling and think you'll ride? Or is this an aspirational purchase? If the former, tell Fleur to lump it. If the latter, get the bow and kill Stormcrow first. I don't want to use my wits and hands on such stinting game.
do you like cycling and think you'll ride? Or is this an aspirational purchase?
Definitely the key question.
I have and I remain unenlightened as to how is anything more than tangentially related to my (admittedly weakly-grounded) mockery.
Jose Gonzalez's version of that song. Just add falcons, parasails, and mountain vistas!
My favorite Jose Gonzalez song is a Sony commercial.
One wonders if I could have fed a link that better illustrates how uncool I am. Myspace? Wow, dude.
Jose Gonzalez's music often reminds me of Nick Drake's. I'm sure that's wrong and yet another illustration of what a loser I am.
I sure am commenting a lot, though! I have things to say, unfogged! Things!
Teach us Obie Von Vaniili, you're our only hope.
Stanley Master of the Explicit.
(yes, i s/b l)
(yes, i s/b l) +,
& ^^ 0k l,, 09))
Working on heebie's self-image here by adding to the comment count. These college profs seem to be needy.
Also, are there any Madison, WI commenters?
I want to talk more about bikes, too! Did you have a road bike in mind, Knecht, so we can criticize ogle appraise it?
Recently I referred the husband of one of the people in my lab for a job. If he'd taken it I would have gotten enough to buy another bike. He didn't take the job. I could see why he didn't take it (they offered surprisingly little money, and it wasn't quite what he was looking for), but dammit, man, in this economy? People need to be buying bikes.
You would have been paid for referring someone to a job? Really? There are bounties? For non head hunter type people? Isn't that weird.
So many questions!
Also, I just traded a bike for a new bike. It was a great trade, but I'm not sure I'm going to keep the new bike anyway.
165: did you trade the single speed, or do you still have that one?
164: yeah, for a programming job. Tech companies are fairly desperate for people right now.
Which, you know, is why I'm in grad school. Let 'em suffer without me.
163.1
Nothing particular in mind. Feel free to make recommendations.
166: I dumped the single-speed really quickly, actually. It hurt my knees.
167: unless you're interested in something exotic/interesting, Trek and Specialized both make great plastic (carbon) bikes. That said, if you *are* interested in something cooler than that (there are upsides and downsides, freals), I'm quite confident I can find you a great deal on something awesome. I would need to know how tall you are, your cycling inseam (easily measured), your sleeve length, how much you plan to ride, what kind of riding you plan to do, and the size of your bonus.
168: yeah, that can happen. I ride mine a fair amount, but never long distances, and it has a pretty low gear.
I got a fancy/fussy leather saddle for from Blume for christmas. It has... not been a comfort explosion just yet, but I'm still well within the early break-in period.
167: I think one of these will do ya just fine. Very practical, with the fat tires and fenders!
Tech companies are fairly desperate for people right now.
they offered surprisingly little money
Could there be a connection?
Bave recently got a sweet bike, KR might get one, we're going to have critical mass for a bicycle gang here soon.
154: I'm just as much of a loser (cold comfort, I know), but I feel the same way. I am inspired to find some Nick Drake songs to listen to.
171: heh. I don't think so, actually; it was a pretty junior position, and I think maybe they thought they could get a deal because he just arrived in the country.
172: and you? Any new bikes for you to discuss?
I think, rather than 170.last, knecht might be better served by a Hampsten Strada Blanca, which is basically the same bike as that Ellis but cheaper and a bit less complicated.
166: I thought you had to work for the company to get that, and the person would have had to last 6 months. My BF almost got one of those, but his friend decided not to move to MA, preferring San Francisco.
176: well, fine. I can compromise.
173: pretty much everything on Way to Blue is easy to listen to, including the one famous song that ended up in the VW commercial, making it Stanley's favorite, no doubt.
178: knecht will, of course, need to get a color-coordinated pick-up.
179: I do link Pink Moon, but I think that I like Cello Song better.
Jose Gonzalez's version (perhaps the original?)
Those look great, but I was looking to spend a little less than that. Like, say, half or a third as much.
184: again, if you want to send me the stuff I mentioned above, I can look for a bike for you. I'm quite confident that I can get you a very nice and very cool complete bike for <$2,000.
Wait one fucking minute. Fucking cheater (not you VW).
VW said he'd hook me up with a sweet bike if I fixed his comments.
187 is totally true. VW is magic like that. Also, he knows the secret internet forum where people with too many fancy bikes go to unload them for pennies. Oops. I've said too much!
VW, you had written "<$2,000", so the less-than sign was interpreted as the beginning of a tag, eating the remainder of the line. If you want to have "<$2,000" appear in your comment, you have to write "<$2,000".
192: I believe your comment as written ran afoul of the '<' being interpreted as html and for a brief time ended after 'for". Then some nanny state blogger fixed it. Because actions apparently do not have consequences in California.
Helping one commenter while ruthlessly pwning another. No wonder comment volume is down.
193: ah, thanks. Computers are confusing.
So, saddlesoreness. Any of you bike people know how to tell the difference between ass pain that means "You'll toughen up as you ride more" and "You really need a different seat". I'm pretty sure this is the former, given that I don't recall this being a chronic problem in prior years, but wow did I get sore this week.
Soreness in the first week on the bike after a long layoff can and should be ignored. If it persists, you might have a problem.
If anything gets numb that's a good sign that something's wrong with your setup. Other than that... dunno? It'll probably go away?
Now, pwnsores, they don't go away.
The pwnosaurs all died out leaving us with just the birds.
The thread has moved on (so far on!), but in 1994, at the age of 13, I rode Amtrak across the country for two days with two train changes (with multiple hour lay-overs). (My mom now says she has no idea what she was thinking! Especially after she found out that I wandered around Chicago for several hours with someone I met on the train. Also, this is definitely in the archives.)
At 13, I was also baby sitting and spending unsupervised after-school time all over town. I have distinct memories of roaming the parks/neighborhoods until dark (and sometimes after) in 6th grade. For most of elementary school I was walking multiple blocks alone. In 1st and 2nd grade I was riding the public bus by myself. All in a relatively small suburban area.
I'm trying to think how much I've spent on bike maintenance (as opposed to bike acquisition/upgrading) over the past year. Thirty dollars, maybe?
Hate, hate, cry.
So, if you were starting to do your own bike maintenance with a basis of pretty much no knowledge of what you were doing, what tasks were covered by the rubric "bike maintenance" or anything like that, is there a good comprehensive reference out there? I mean, for anything where I have a strong sense of "I need to do [x] to a bike" I figure I could look at YouTube. But starting from diagnosis of what you might want to do under what circumstances, I have no idea: is there a good website aimed at the ignorant, or a book with lots of pictures?
(I'm still intimidated by my bike, but the kids' bikes look like something I could successfully take apart and reassemble if there was good reason to.)
162: I'm thinking of applying for a job there. Only problem is the salary is kind of low, even factoring in cost of living.
Er, to be more informative, that site has articles about pretty much everything to do with bikes, written accessibly. Check out, for instance, the "Beginners" section, or pick a random entry in the glossary and start reading.
So, if you were starting to do your own bike maintenance with a basis of pretty much no knowledge of what you were doing, what tasks were covered by the rubric "bike maintenance" or anything like that, is there a good comprehensive reference out there?
One caution -- having open space (or outdoor space) is very helpful for bike maintenance. Living in a NY condo might make doing your own maintenance trickier.
We work on our bikes in the kitchen. Works okay.
re: 205
I can second Tweety's Sheldon Brown recommendation. I also have a Haynes manual for bikes which is decent. I find most things easy to do except adjusting V-brakes which are just bastards. Tweaking derailleurs, etc much easier than just stopping those bastards from working badly.
OT: I am in Philadelphia because someone has a professional obligation in the area this evening. In unrelated news, the people whom I have met who carried Eire passports were never huge St. Paddy's Day enthusiasts.
I used to go out drinking with Irish* mates in Glasgow on St. Patrick's, but it was never a big thing, and never 'Irish'. We'd just go to a pub.
* both actual Irish, and the generic Celtic fan type.
Hey, Sifu, I finished the second part of the McPhee. They didn't end up moving the capital, of course, so it's now primarily of historical interest, but quite interesting as that.
having open space (or outdoor space) is very helpful for bike maintenance
As Tweety said, we do it in our kitchen, which is fine. But don't do it over carpeting or a rug, because the bikes will drop off lots of little bits of gunk. Having a stand to put it up on really does make a lot of difference, because you want to be able to turn the cranks.
Sheldon Brown saved the day recently when I was installing a headset. Note to self: throw away all directions that come with Campy parts, proceed instead directly to Sheldon Brown.
As Tweety said, we do it in our kitchen, which is fine.
I am also meh on doing it in the kitchen. Overrated!
216: I was curious about your thoughts on his take on Anchorage, but that may be in part three.
124
... Risks: low. (I mean, what's the worst that happens? You have to bring your bike to the shop after all.) ...
A wheel falls off (or the brakes fail etc) at some inconvenient time.
More bike pron please. (Not kinky!)
115
... It's much healthier to ride without a helmet than not to ride at all. ...
I find this hard to believe (and not from the added risk of no helmet). I expect the risk of injury outweighs any benefits from the exercise.
I think lots of people have fears like that. But when you're engaged enough with the bike to be trying to work on it (as opposed to just riding it without paying much attention to the parts), you can tell if the brakes are working, if the wheel is on.
222: that's okay! I don't really care if you believe it.
But I am curious what potential injuries you think are so inevitable. And what physical activities you think are lower impact than cycling. Walking? In a pool, maybe?
Now bike racing, that is a good way to be sure to fuck your body up.
I also like the worry about a wheel falling off. I actually know people who have had this happen; they had their front wheel completely unbolted and then tried to pop a sick wheelie. Solution: check the bolts on your front wheel before trying to pop sick wheelies. Otherwise you pretty much don't need to be worried about a wheel falling off, at least not while you're on the bike pressing the wheels and the bike together.
Er, "know people" in 227 should be "heard about one guy". </Daisey&rt;
Well what the f, neb.
226: I guess? Better than, like, running. Pro racing doesn't seem enormously healthy, what with all the blood doping and the 70mph crashes and the insane weight fluctuation. That's true.
So yeah, Shearer, avoid riding in the Tour de France. Or if you do, try and hang back and keep your eyes open.
Yeah, the people I know who are serious competitive bikers all have terribly fucked up backs and stuff by the time they're in their sixties, but that kind of thing doesn't tend to sneak up on you while you're minding your own business biking through the park.
Ah, yeah. I mean, the easy way to avoid back problems is to raise your handlebars (or move them back towards you, or both), but a lot of competitive cyclists are resistant to that because 1. it slows you down and 2. is a sign of age.
For instance, if you made fun of VW for the height of his handlebars he'd probably act all sheepish and his feelings would be hurt.
Some people get quite extreme with the handlebar-raising.
Avoiding high-speed crashes also helps, I think.
And of course by all accounts good recumbents are about as tough on your body as taking a nap.
234: oh. Well, yes. Is that what you meant?
It used to be a thing at my middle school for some assholes to go around and disconnect the front wheels on the bikes at the bike racks, but leave the wheels on. I somehow didn't get hurt when my front wheel came off while riding on a sidewalk a few blocks away. After that, I always checked the wheel before leaving school.
237: fork ends have little lips now ("lawyer lips") so that quick release wheels won't come off just from loosening the quick-release lever. Which sort of defeats the purpose of having a quick-release in the first place, but whatever.
So, if you were starting to do your own bike maintenance with a basis of pretty much no knowledge of what you were doing, what tasks were covered by the rubric "bike maintenance" or anything like that, is there a good comprehensive reference out there?
You might also check to see if there's any sort of bike co-op place in the city that offers classes. I took a class from The Bike Kitchen here in SF, a place where you can bring your bike to work on with their tools and stands and stuff, and I found it very helpful. I was pretty intimidated before, and even though I'm still clueless, I'm not really scared of trying to fix things, which is a big step. I'd google around for you, but I should probably take advantage of this pause in the rain to actually ride my damn bike, which I haven't been able to do in about a week.
Other reasons to avoid the Tour de France (ps NSFtheSqueamish)
Which sort of defeats the purpose of having a quick-release in the first place, but whatever.
Well, you can still get your wheel off and on without a wrench, which is nice. Most of us aren't swapping out wheels as fast as we can to rejoin the peloton.
238: Yet another way kids have it easy these days.
I spent several hours today working on my bike and got a lot done, but just when I thought it might be rideable by the end of the day, the front derailler clamp broke in a freakish manner. I'll have to send it back and get a new one.
Restoring this bike has been fun and interesting. I went from knowing just a few basic bike maintenance things to actually kind of understanding how the basic systems work and having at least some feel for how to install stuff, adjust stuff, etc.
I was curious about your thoughts on his take on Anchorage, but that may be in part three.
No, it's in part two. (At least, the part you were talking about earlier is; there may be more on Anchorage in part three.) His take seemed to boil down to "Anchorage is a typical American city, and that sucks for reasons I'm not going to bother to explain."
244: that sounds right, but I think part three goes some way to (implicitly) explaining why he thinks that.
Also, front dérailleur clamps can be a bit delicate. I broke one just by bolting it down somewhat too tightly.
234: Yes, and "high speed" can refer to the velocity of the object that hits the bike too. Black on black in the rain in the dark isn't a good idea.
I'll be all sorts of apologetic though, if that will help with the rehab or funeral.
I think part three goes some way to (implicitly) explaining why he thinks that.
That sounds plausible. I'll let you know what I think when I get to it.
dérailleur
Ok, but how do you pronounce it?
221: for you. Also. Too. And my current fave (see, especially, the Luigino and the Day is Done).
You have to put another quarter in the slot if you want more.
234: oh. Well, yes. Is that what you meant?
Both!
By the way, the best thing about Dario Pegoretti's page is that several of his pictured bikes have paint chips. Why, you might ask, is that good? Well, because he's very famous for his designs but equally infamous for the lack of durability of his paint. Truth in advertising!
Another thing that occurred to be about McPhee's account of Anchorage is that it sounds like he spent most of his time there in the newer, sprawling parts that make up most of the city. He even says at one point that downtown is his favorite part of town, with its odd mishmash of stuff, but it doesn't sound like he spent much time there, which is understandable since it was in pretty bad shape at the time. That's the part I'm most familiar with, of course, since it's where I both live and work (my office is right next to the JCPenney he mentions), and it has more character than most other parts of the city, so that's certainly shaped my impression of it a lot.
Thanks! Great pictures. I like Vanilla Workshop's detailing—right down to the hubs.
And…Firefly has a nosflow too!
More pron:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-rides-bike-book-love-la-marathon-301287
I really dig this guy's stuff. These are too elaborate for my tastes, but a lot of people love 'em. And this guy makes cool things.
On the importance of proper handlebar position.
From the link in 259, I occasionally see a guy (Travis, I presume) on that bike from the fourth row when I'm on my way to work.
I just put a pic of my silly little bike in the pool (and two better bikers and their rigs). Now I need to get ready to go get drunk with some Irish American friends.
I would post recent pictures of my bike but I don't think I have any that really do it justice.
We should definitely get VW to post pictures of his current bikes. That's important.
I don't have any pictures of any of my current bikes. I'll take some when it stops FUCKING RAINING.
I'm also not on the flickr pool, so that's a problem.
And finally, I may have an insanely sweet frame for sale for a really good price* if you know anyone who rides a 56.
* It's all relative, of course. Not everyone can get an Ellis-built Waterford for a fistful of beans.
162: my whole family is there; I lived there for 20years, but not since 04. what's up?
(salaries are so famously low at madison that the chronicle ran an article about a faculty poaching trend. if it makes a diffrence, the public schools in city are largely better than the private schools -- or were -- if that's no longer true I will weep real goddamn tears.)
270: I'm heading out there in a couple of weeks and wondered if someone knew of a good place to rent a bike.
Oh wait, there might be restrictions on that (time/personnel). But if you have a confederate it might be possible. Otherwise, http://budgetbicyclectr.com/Bicycle-Road-Mountain-Bike-Rentals-Madison
And wait: on 269, is it actually a Waterford? Can you gently hammer it down to 54, or get high enough quality growth hormones from Moo U to allow a potential buyer to comfortably ride a 56?
269: oh damn. At least give me a preview email.
Okay I add a recent bike pic. It's on you now, VW!
276: I don't have access to the flckr pool.
Oh yeah, VW could never get a pass. You have to be ultra awesome to get in to the flickr pool.
225: The kinds of speeds that can easily be achieved by cycling, PLUS hard surfaces, can easily lead to injury.
You can be doored.
You can be hit by a car.
You can hit a bump, spill off your bike, and crack your head against the street/track/whatever.
You can be going downhill, fail to brake sufficiently, and either flip over or just hit something hard like a tree, wall, car, or stroller.
You can bike off a cliff/wall/ledge easier than you can walk off one.
I am sure there are also some quite safe environments for cycling, and if I had the time to get to them biking would be a feasible, safe exercise choice.
Oh, hey, since this seems the active thread: any suggestions for a nice restaurant in Berkeley? And by "nice" I mean: a successful academic's taking me out to dinner, their treat (this is the one I stayed with for that Oxford conference a year and a half ago). Lurid suggested a place that had an Italian sounding name that I think began with an A, but I didn't actually write it down like I meant to (oops), and now I can't remember. But other suggestions are good, too. Help me, Mineshaft!
The maximum walking speed is quite a bit lower, and our intuitions about what's safe are better adapted for it.
Weight training can be extremely safe with proper spotting &c. Subjectively I feel pretty safe even on my own with my kettlebells.
Stationary bikes are also probably pretty safe and extremely low-impact, though also probably extremely boring. (At least a cold environment is presumably available.)
I think I've told the story of my brother-in-law who had a biking accident, lost his short term memory as a result, and then killed himself.
280: If someone else is paying, perhaps Chez Panisse? (There's also an "upstairs"/bistro arrangement where you can order a la carte.)
280: not to be boring, but upstairs at Chez Pannise is good, quite pleasant, and not crazy expensive. As is Pizzaiolo. I recently went to a very good Mexican place, but its prices were extravagant, I thought. Hmm, I'll try to think of others.
(Chez Panisse is (a) booked, at least according to OpenTable; (b) so obvious!; and (c) more expensive than I'm comfortable suggesting.)
I only mention that in case your academic friend has a finite budget, since it's cheaper.
The upstairs Panisse cafe is also booked (this is for a week from now); I really should have started looking a few days ago, but oh well.
285: call for upstairs. I've never had a problem, even the day of, getting a table at an off hour (9 or later is an off hour in Berkeley, sadly).
288: oh. Pizzaiolo really is good, has excellent cocktails, and is generally a pleasant* place to have a meal.
* Not too terribly loud.
On the other end of the spectrum, Taqueria La Familia on Shattuck Ave is pretty good, as is the burger place next door.
280: Adagia. The place my household will choose above every other restaurant in Berkeley, though, is Taste of the Himalayas on North Shattuck, but that is our eccentricity. Other people don't typically fall quite so hard for a vegan okra dish. It's excellent food, though.
Italian options: Venezia, Corso.
225
But I am curious what potential injuries you think are so inevitable. And what physical activities you think are lower impact than cycling. Walking? In a pool, maybe?
I was thinking mostly injuries from accidents. Like a former boss at IBM who broke his hip when some bozo riding the other way and talking to his buddies ran into him head on. He wasn't even riding in traffic. Not inevitable of course but serious bikers seem to crash fairly often and it just takes one bad accident to cancel out any execise benefits. If you never crash cycling is probably fairly safe although now that you mention it a guy I knew in college developed some problem with his dick from cycling.
This thread might be of interest too.
that you mention it a guy I knew in college developed some problem with his dick from cycling.
Did it get caught in the gears?
Hey, I'm going to Pizzaiolo tonight! Not with VW, of course.
And really, the cafe at Chez Panisse just isn't worth it IME; for the same money I'd rather go to Lalime's. Other places to check: Bistro Liaison, Cafe Rouge, Wood Tavern (although that might be difficult to get into). Hudson has excellent cocktails; the only food I've had there was from their limited happy hour menu, but it was really good too.
If none of those work I can give you more suggestions.
I swear to god I posted 296 before reading the link in 294. I just know my food, okay?
Adagia is apparently defunct, and has reopened as a totally different concept. Ah well. Checking Yelp on the other suggestions; and thanks for that Chowhound thread. You guys are super helpful.
You gave it the personal touch, Josh.
Oh, I figured you wanted to eat out in 2006 Berkeley. I have more recommendations from 2006. Those sandwiches at Intermezzo: delicious! Cheap!
I can also give Von Wafer similarly outdated restaurant recommendations for Madison.
Our awesome childhoods contrasted with today's fallen world -> bikes -> food. How unpredictable is that?
But aren't bikes and food both topics about which people also typically say, "Oh, it was so much better back in the day"? So it was only to be expected.
Our awesome childhoods contrasted with today's fallen world -> bikes -> food. How unpredictable is that?
Spooky! We should start talking about copyright or dinosaurs.
re: general cycling talk up-thread.
I like riding a bike, and think bikes are great, but they can really fuck up your knees. So it's not a zero-impact form of exercise. If I'm not careful I get patella problems if I up the amount of cycling I do, and while it's not so much of a problem now [as I rarely ride much] it used to be a PITA in the past.
A lot of people in sports that require lower body flexibility also avoid cycling large amounts, but I'm not training at remotely high enough a level for that to be an issue.
305.last (and since x.trapnel is here): Posted the "urple ponders birds" found art in the pool for memorialization purposes. Not as heroic as you envisioned, but serviceable.
Oh, I figured you wanted to eat out in 2006 Berkeley.
I WENT TO A RESTAURANT THAT SERVES 'BREAKFAST AT ANY TIME.' SO I ORDERED FRENCH TOAST DURING THE RESAISSANCE.
Speaking of food, you know what's annoying? The day I first got sick with all the gall stones stuff (St. Valentine's Day), I was eating a "Mission-style" burrito from my favorite taqueria. And now, when ever I go by there, or, in fact, any of the other taquerias that line the main drag by my house, I get overwhelmingly nauseated thinking about vomiting up that last burrito. And I really like burritos! It's a damn shame, is what it is.
Awesome, JP.
As for restaurants: I made reservations at Hudson and Revival, and I suggested those two, plus Lalime's, as finalists to the academic in question. (There were no 7pm reservations left at Commis, Corso, Plum, Rivoli, or Bistro Liason.) Thanks everybody!
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So, will the Brooklyn Nets go hipster or Jay-Z gangsta?
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Every goddamn time I eat a burrito, I wish I hadn't finished it, but I just can't seem to stop myself.
You know what I miss? The preternaturally yellow burritos we got in school lunches back in the 1980s. Probably full of horse meat, rat droppings and DDT, but they really hit the spot all the same.
Huh, Natster, we are not on the same page with the grody yellow pink slime rat droppings burritos.
You didn't like those? But what about the shell? It was so crispy on the outside, and chewy inside. And the cheap meat & beans filling was so savory and obviously not good for you! And they were a pleasingly artificial yellow color. No accounting for taste, I guess.
Also, compared to the utterly vile macaroni & cheese they were like manna from Heaven.
http://www.ridesalmon.com/12-hrs-of-disco/
Some biker fun. "12 hours of disco."
"12 hours of disco."
Well, you know...
295
Did it get caught in the gears?
See here .
Researchers have estimated that 5 percent of men who ride bikes intensively have developed severe to moderate erectile dysfunction as a result. But some experts believe that the numbers may be much higher because many men are too embarrassed to talk about it or fail to associate cycling with their problems in the bedroom.
I love that Shearer is even anti-bike. It's like he hates everything that's been labeled "liberal". Lattes and Volvos? Definitely not okay.
Great moments in nomenclature:
In men, a sheath in the perineum, called Alcock's canal, contains an artery and a nerve that supply the penis with blood and sensation.
(from the link in 320)
Biking is about the only outdoor exercise I get, so I'm hoping that the "intensively" in 320 is doing a lot of work.
Last Saturday kid A got (gently) hit by a car, whilst on her bike - she had right of way and was turning right, they were turning left at a give way and clearly didn't notice her. So they kind of converged and the corner of the car bumper hit her front wheel. I don't think the car even noticed. She didn't fall over, and was more angry than anything else - was annoyed with herself that she checked her bike first rather than getting their number plate. Anyway, there's nothing obviously wrong with it - she's been riding it all week - but what should we be checking? Last time I took her bike to the bike shop for a service, it cost more than I expected and then got stolen the week after. (Presumably not related, but seemed like a giant waste of money!)
Check the front wheel's rim for any signs of damage, and check that the wheel still spins true.
I checked the wheel that night when she came home and told me, and it seems straight. Didn't look closely at the rim though, will do that.
Of course, if I were a good 21st century parent, I'd have been driving her there and it would never have happened.
321
It's like he hates everything that's been labeled "liberal".
I am fine with abortions.
And I don't really hate bikes but I do find some bike evangelists annoying. Not to mention some bikers I have encountered on mixed bike pedestrian trails like the one on which my former boss was injured (which was also the subject of letters to the editor from walkers complaining about aggressive bikers).
Hot damn bicycling is fun.
Bicycling, bicycling, bicycling. Everybody should do it!
Especially on days like today!
Watch out for alleged "bike paths", though. They're full of asshole pedestrians.
But damn that was some nice bicycling.
Sometimes cyclists come too fast and I'm worried about them hitting me as they pass. That's when I take the whole path. Really, going uphill at least, I'm running nearly as fast as many of the bikers.
I actually never take bike paths, because they are almost always basically impassable at higher-than-walking-speed for cyclists, because of pedestrians. Instead, I ride in the road, where I only have to avoid people jogging in the bike lane some of the time.
Anyhow, I shouldn't complain. Between bike lanes and bike paths, the amount of infrastructure for cyclists that is immediately claimed by people using other forms of transportation is increasing all the time!
What I don't get is why more people don't just drive on the sidewalk.
You can't drive on the sidewalk in my neighborhood. That's where people park.
Off to swim run.
There were some paths where I grew up where people actually observed the separation marked on the path between pedestrians on one side and cyclists on the other.
People are quite good about observing that separation in Berlin (partly because people on bikes will happily run you down if you're walking on the bike part of the sidewalk). Truly it is a model I appreciate.
Anyhow, I was mostly just talking about it because Shearer was being a little prat. I love all, and bicycling is wonderful. Hooray! Hooray!
I ran far enough that my nipples hurt from abrasion with my shirt.
jogging in the bike lane
I do this only when one of those double-wide-stroller humans refuses to share the goddamn sidewalk.
If it is a woman pushing the stroller, her nipples have more reason to hurt than your nipples.
There are people who just straight up jog in the bike lane, presumably because 1. there are people on the sidewalk that they would occasionally have to avoid and 2. the asphalt is softer for their pwecious wittle knees (I have actually read this on a running site!). Given that the only option it leaves me with is veering into automobile traffic to get around them I... am not a fan.
I suppose that's not certain, but you probably shouldn't ask or anything.
Usually I limit my exposure to car traffic by cutting it as close to the jogger as I can. Which is probably not the most sociable thing in the world but whatever. I'll just be extra courteous in situations where people actually have the right of way.
Damn 344 came off as grumpy. Maybe I am irritated about something. Transcend, Sifu! Transcend the bleeding nipples of your consciousness!
342: Is that the reason? Somebody was running down the street and wouldn't move for cars. This wasn't a bike lane or unused shoulder. I watched as a car had to stop and wait for a car going the other way before it could pass. It was after dark and she was wearing earbuds.
My impression is that a lot of runners think running on asphalt is significantly better for their knees than running on concrete. I find it hard to believe.
346: I think that it is, yeah. Damn these people!
Lots of sidewalks are uneven and potentially hazardous for ankles.
On the odds of getting hurt: I've logged by my count better than four thousand miles over the last three years, and I've got only one close call in that period. (Skinned my knee once, but I was walking my bike up some stairs and tripped. I don't think that counts). Now, I'm mostly on a very good bike path, but I'm on streets for a mile or two a day.
I'm cautious and slow, but it really does seem possible, if cautious and slow is your thing, to have a very low rate of injuries per mile.
And I just got in from a pleasant twelve mile round trip with Newt.
I have ridden tens of thiusands of miles on my bike without serious injury (knock, obviously, on wood).
I've ridden less than ten miles on my bike and gotten two skull-splitting headaches that were so bad I couldn't even walk for a good ten minutes.
As an adult, that is. Never bothered me when I was younger.
Transcend the bleeding nipples of your consciousness!
New mouseover?
When you swim, you dont worry about concrete hurting your knees or poorly maintained bike paths.
Plus, you dont screw up your ac joint by flipping over your bike and landing on the ground.
Just saying.
It's really interesting, if you've never been there, to watch videos of cycling in the Netherlands (like this or this)--just a different world. A better world! Though also a world somewhat less accommodating to (even if safer for) hard-core fast cyclists. Or at least I feel like, were I in a place with really good infrastructure like that, I'd feel a lot of pressure to not go into the road despite my irritation at the the slow bikers.
When you swim, you dont worry about concrete hurting your knees
You've never seen me do a flip turn.
I was worried that running on sidewalks was hurting my knees, because I'd get this sharp pain right at the beginning of every run. Then I described the issue to a friend who's studying to be an OT and who ran track in college, and as soon as I pointed out where the pain was happening, she said, "That's not your knee. That's your quad. You need to stretch it better."
Boom! Problem solved.
I had all sort of Achilles tendon pain until I started stretching more. I used to finish my run and then stretch.
Asphalt really is the best. It feels great and doesn't slow you down the way dirt and grass do. Running on grass makes me barf.
On the restaurant recommendation front, here's one Flippanter might consider for his next date.
I of course run on sidewalks because I don't want to get killed.
Running on grass makes me barf.
On the veldt, the lion would stop chasing you to eat the barf.
I should spread the rumor that running on the third rail protects your knees from injury and provides the ideal surface for training. Clear out some space at the races.
"Guilded Lady"?
Maybe she's, like, a draper or something.
Did anyone else notice that Moby left for a bit, Brad the Lurker started commenting and then surrendered, and now Moby's back?
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Note that Heebie referred to U Del's star player, Elena Delle Donne, in an earlier thread.* I'm fairly indifferent to basketball,** but I saw EDD play in person and thought she was amazing.
*I reiterate my objection to the "Podunk U" label.
**WNBA games, however, are a blast. Highly recommended for families with kids or mentors with same.
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369: Not me. That is, I haven't noticed and I'm not Brad the Lurker. He may or may not avoid the place when I'm here, but you'd have to ask him about that.
I had noticed all those things happening, but I didn't think of them as being in any way connected, and I still don't.
The gestation period is far more variable than most people think.
370: I did not realize that was referring to U Del, which is a D-1 school after all (for instance the article states the UD coach offered her a scholarship when she was in the *8th* grade--although he knew it was a very long shot).
Speaking of basketball, the Jeremy Lin story has taken an interesting turn with the Kmicks hiring a new head coach whose offensive scheme is a bit less Lin-friendly. Although Lin (and the whole team) had tailed off badly in early March and he has actually done a bit better these last three games under the new coach.
You've never seen me do a flip turn.
My kid swam headfirst into the end of the pool when he was first learning to do tumble turns. He also ran into a lamp post when out for a run. He has never hit his head whilst cycling.
Tying a wheel to your head for injury protection is deprecated. Even if it was the style at the time.
I thought the Knicks losing a bunch in a row basically negated the earlier Lin story, like when everything turns to normal at the end of a sitcom episode.
That's not how having twins works, essear.
OT: I just realized that everybody in this bar is cheering for Lehigh. I'm not sure why this surprises me.
332: Sometimes cyclists come too fast
I think those were the ones Shearer mentioned.
Hey x.trapnel go to Gordo's Taqueria! OK, not really, but it was one of about three things I liked about the Bay Area. I think the others were 2) the produce, and 3) moving away. But seriously, Gordo's makes great burritos. Oh wait, I also liked that they sold gin at the grocery store.
383: Maybe they just hate Duke like everyone else, so they're rooting for the heroes who ousted the Blue Devils.
383: The Canadian tv channel that's occasionally broadcasting non-CBS games is showing women's curling. Since the networks refuse to accept my money to pay for the NCAA on-demand site this year, I'm forced to watch the game for free online. The picture is kind of grainy.
I've had five pints without peeing. I maybe should watch my hydration when I run.
381: They beat Duke. I think pretty much everyone is on the Lehigh bandwagon now.
Anyway, I used to work for Duke and I kind of miss it.
Also, the people here have Lehigh shirts. They clearly didn't start last Thursday.
West NJ.
Euphoria . I just re-read Lodge's Rummidge trilogy. They still hold up.
391: In my experience, east of Ligonier is another world and Ohio is where about 1/4 of the people are from.
Is it too much to ask for a game in this tournament to be really in doubt with one minute to go? Of course Lehigh could come back here, but this tournament has been horrible for suspense.
395: There have been a lot of these up by 3 to 8 points/nervy free throw games, but you're right, not many lead-changing back and forth in the last minute. Relatively small crowd--the state of North Carolina must suck for basketball support.
395: The St. John's women beat Creighton at the very last minute today, keeping Obama's bracket from tanking. U Del, meanwhile, kicked all sorts of ass, so the Veep has got to be happy as well.
The funny thing about Lehigh is that I have a number of connections there, and even gave a talk on campus a couple of years ago. My FB page is going crazy with the Lehigh love.
Bastards. Nobody should let two Nebraska teams get beat on the same day.
270 salaries are so famously low at madison
Huh. Either that isn't the case anymore, or I should be really impressed with the negotiating skills of the people there who want me.
The job I'm considering applying for isn't at the university. It's not a very high-level position either, but involves working with stuff that interests me. It's probably about 4-5k lower than what I'd expect for entry-level and I wouldn't be surprised if it's half of whatever essear is considering.
162: VW, I'm a lurker, not a commenter, but in Madison, yep. Are you coming in for ASEH?
This game is at least in doubt, but that was a really bad possession by Purdue there.
Purdue has apparently forgotten how to play offense.
If Kansas is gaining, I'm going to turn on the TV.
You missed a pretty awesome game, Mobes.
And I know this is the wrong thread, but Natilo is welcome here any time. I crossed the river by foot (and by bridge, obvs, not Jesuswise) with a 4-year-old and 8-year-old, but there are cute and trolleylike buses for those too gouty to manage that.
407.1: I watched part of it, part of the time. I eventually had to go home while I was still able to ride the bus. As it was, the bus driver directly asked me if I was going straight home. That's not happened before.
399: old article here; I'd be delighted and not too surprised to learn that things have changed.
My hometown loyalty is about as profound as my desire never to move back. It's strange: such a walking cliche. Actually, on the off chance that anyone wishes to grant me access to the flickr pool,
i can post the iconic Madison photo my family sent me from the protests, most of the footage from which made me cry and cry from some combination of homesickness, pride, fear/anger, etc. It was very intense.
Dead thread, but on bike expenses: as you know, chains, cogs, cranks, and cassettes all wear out, and are all pricey items relative to the bike (at least the bikes that I own).
Anyway, my point was mainly that bikes seem cheap to own (no gas, no inspection), but you can easily spend 20% of its value in annual maintenance, even if you do a chunk of the work yourself.
Also, even though I completely disassembled and rebuilt my first road bike, I never felt entirely comfortable that I'd done it correctly, and was always faintly anxious bombing down hills. Some of it is that I'm simply not mechanically minded. Somehow there's a distinction between carpentry-related activities, which I've always* found intuitive, and mechanical ones, which I've always found daunting.
Finally, thanks for that helmet link. Good stuff to know.
* like, going back to 9th grade wood shop. The causation runs from intuiting carpentry to being in the construction industry, not the other way.
