Re: Ask The Mineshaft: Kiss Off

1

I have similar questions - is it actively unpleasant for her? Or is it a disinterest in lighter, flirtier activities?

But this points me in a different direction:

She says that when she was younger she enjoyed it because other physical activities were constrained, but being in a long term relationship if she has interest in physical affection she prefers other activities.

Kissing-when-youthful, to me, recalls prolonged sessions of nothing else, and frankly I'm not that interested in kissing sessions anymore, either.

About all I'm interested in is some preliminary kissing-while-chatting, and then some frenchier while all fooling around is getting heavier. But not isolated kissing sessions.

Does she mean kissing is off the table during all bedroom encounters, like "kiss along his chinline/neck BUT AVOID THE MOUTH"? Because that's a different question than if you're asking for teenage makeout session.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:16 AM
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What about rimming?


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:19 AM
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I am afraid I would find this complaint more plausible coming from a woman. As I guy I could do without kissing just fine as long as everything else remained on the menu. So perhaps there is more to the story.

... you could withhold sex until she makes out with you, ...

This does not strike me as a good idea.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:21 AM
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2: Shouldn't you be knee deep in a 15 hour exam, young man?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:26 AM
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the idea of spending time doing something that's sexual but not about to progress immediately to sex?

If it were a man, this would be my first thought.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:26 AM
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Hmm. I don't know that I have advice so much as empathy. When I was with UNG, kissing was more or less exclusively a prelude to sex (or attempted sex), which made it a decidedly unappealing activity (i.e., as if participating in said kissing was implied assent to further activity). One of the nicest things about my last relationship was kissing just to kiss. There's just something decidedly affectionate and nurturing about agenda-free kissing.


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:28 AM
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If I need 5 minutes of making out on the couch each day to be happy in our relationship, she will oblige. However, it's obviously not the same when one party sees it as a chore.

So you would want an old-fashioned make-out session if she were into it? See, this leads me to think I'm on the same page as she is. I'm okay with kissing but five minutes on the couch each day sounds terrible.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:29 AM
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I dunno, don't kiss.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:29 AM
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Oh, I do agree with 6, though, too. Maybe I don't have a consistent opinion on this after all.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:30 AM
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And, dude, LB. I hope the part about withholding sex was tongue in cheek.* Using sex to manipulate other behavior is just not good. (I mean, manipulating your partner is bad, period. But even worse when sex is involved. Eek.)

*Sorry, Bill. Don't mean to rub that in.


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:35 AM
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7/9. That can be quite consistent. Enjoying making out when it feels right for both people is one thing; "OMG, it's 6:30, have to stick my tongue in partner's mouth for five minutes" is quite another.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:37 AM
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4: not for another 23 minutes.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:38 AM
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Maybe they have a shitty couch?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:44 AM
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I am realizing that I'm not sure exactly what Bill wants. Makeout sessions as foreplay? Makeout sessions freestanding, not as foreplay? Any kissing at all ever? Kissing during sex?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:48 AM
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Would buying a Camero and parking behind the shelter belt help?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:50 AM
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10: Huh. Using sex to manipulate your partner into giving you sex seems morally okay to me. I mean, if it comes down to twisting their arm into something they really don't want to do, that's different. But "You primarily enjoy Activity A, and don't mind Activity B but you're not very into it. I really really want Activity B. If we treat B then A as a package deal, I get what I want, you get what you want, and maybe you start associating B with A and get into it more" doesn't seem wrongful at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:56 AM
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On the other hand, I can't say as I've ever gone there personally. Possibly it'd feel wronger in practice.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:59 AM
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||

Okay, bye.

|>


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:00 AM
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Bike thread!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:01 AM
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Or you start associating A with B and become turned off by it and do less of both. See, e.g., 6.


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:02 AM
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14. But my reading of the OP is that Hillary does object to Activity B (she doesn't enjoy it any more); therefore making A dependent on B is like telling a kid they can't have dessert unless they eat their spinach. Only worse.

On preview, what di said.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:06 AM
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God, I haven't been kissed in months and months. I hardly remember it. But I do feel like there are people I've been with that I never got sick of kissing, and others whose kisses cloyed the appetites they fed. I guess I can see having a multi-year relationship in which making out gets boring, but as an occasional thing to do it's still pretty exciting. 5 continuous minutes every day does seem a bit extreme.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:11 AM
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The volunteering for a daily makeout session if Bill wants it seems to imply that she doesn't hate the idea, it's just never on her agenda as what she really wants to do next. And the OP says that she used to enjoy kissing back when she was younger and going straight to having sex wasn't an option -- if that's a straightforward description of what's going on with her (as opposed to revulsion at kissing that she doesn't want to be straightforward about), it seems as if recreating the conditions under which she did enjoy kissing, that slightly frustrated teenager feeling, might make it hotter for her.

If kissing is really unpleasant or revolting for her, that's not going to work. But if she's just in a "Look, we're both busy people, can we cut to the chase here?" place and that's making him unhappy, slowing things down and asking for kissier foreplay as a prerequisite to sex might mean they both had more fun.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:13 AM
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I'm picturing her as a CPR trainer who is all about the job.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:15 AM
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Wow, I'd never heard the term "shelterbelt" before. "Windbreak" for sure, but not "shelterbelt."


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:16 AM
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Is this maybe really about bad breath?


Posted by: ? | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:17 AM
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Also, see point (4) of the original post -- she's explicitly willing to work on this.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:17 AM
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23 seems right. Could be that these folks are just too busy and need to go stay at a prudish family member's house. Separate twin beds, here we come! Or not!


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:17 AM
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If you pursue option #4, arrange it so the third party only makes out with you as a build up to other activities with your long term partner. That way, when the make out session is over, the third party can say to the long term partner "Here, I warmed him up for you."


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:20 AM
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25: You should visit the great plains more.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:21 AM
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1- Just going by Hillary's explanation, it's specifically kissing. Cuddling watching movies is fine, sex is fine (although currently constrained due to an injury), but even kissing during sex is discouraged. I mean, sometimes it happens because our mouths are there but she doesn't really want that part to happen.
What I said about continuum vs. tree applies to foreplay- she doesn't see kissing as necessary to get started. Also I would just like it other times when sex is not available (i.e., due to current injury). As for technique, LB, I can just go by what she says about it not being me specifically but kissing in general. Early in our relationship she said my technique was good but I suppose that might have been because you don't tell a new partner they suck as kissing.
7- The five minutes was an example she gave as being willing to do whatever I ask for, that would probably be excessive. I'm thinking a kiss when I get home (more than a peck), some kissing in bed without progressing sex, other occasional times, not dedicated sessions. But she says those would be unpleasant, she'd do it if I asked but wouldn't really like it.
13- We did keep the one from the previous tenants who were a couple of gay guys so maybe it has bad mojo for heterosexuals.
14- Mostly any kissing at all, some during sex, maybe occasional French (which is totally off the table), again, the five minute session was just an example but not something I specifically asked for.


Posted by: WJC | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:25 AM
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32

Plus, "windbreak" sounds too much like "breaking wind" for a conversation about making out.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:25 AM
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33

By "totally off the table", I mean under the current situation- even when we do kiss (like during sex), no tongue involved. She says she'd do that too if I really wanted.


Posted by: WJC | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:28 AM
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30: are you asking me to make out with you? I'm flattered, but no thanks.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:28 AM
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32: And "shelterbelt" has no potential relevant connotations?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:28 AM
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35: It's a positive connotation of the warmth of another's flatulence arms.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:31 AM
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Has Hillary been reading "50 Shades of Grey"? If so, maybe you should spank her first.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 6:32 AM
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totally off the table

Have you tried making out on the table instead of the couch?

Some couches are bad making-out couches. I'm not naming any names.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:15 AM
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To #3, I would suggest that kissing is not universally considered cheating in this world. I remember when a friend called me the morning after a wild birthday party at my then-boyfriend's house to tell me that I must not ask her any questions because the truth is too horrific to bear, but I must break up with my boyfriend immediately. I asked if something violent happened, and no, but, but. But. He kissed her. I was like, dude, he also sat naked in the backyard in full view of all the neighbors. I wouldn't sweat it. I'm not sure I get the ZOMG reaction to extrapartnerial kissing.

That said, it is shitty to go around getting your smooch rocks off with others if the boundaries are not clearly explained.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:24 AM
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Perhaps you could try only kissing in places where you can't have sex. E.g. when you're out together, have a bit of a snog in a quiet corner.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:26 AM
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Hey, remember that time we decided to kiss anywhere but the mouth?


Posted by: Opinionated Regina Spektor | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:28 AM
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Cruel Inside Joke Response: Have you considered couples therapy?

Humorless Old Guy Response: She knows all about kissing, how it feels physically and emotionally, and isn't particularly interested. Do stuff she is interested in. She knows how you feel about kissing, and so if you slip a little in, very rarely, chances are she'll go along. Keep it short enough, and you'll never see her bored with it. And who knows, maybe, in some alchemical way that is the exact opposite of fake it til you make it, she'll end up being interested in those short bursts.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:29 AM
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Hillary is a pornstar and this relationship is doomed. Any number of interviews have them saying kissing is off limits unless there's love.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:31 AM
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I was like, dude, he also sat naked in the backyard in full view of all the neighbors.

I think that would get somebody arrested in my neighborhood.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:38 AM
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The guy from Nebraska taking Polaroids?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:40 AM
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The backyards aren't very isolated. Even after dark, when the moon is up, I have to go inside to pee.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:54 AM
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Perhaps you could try only kissing in places where you can't have sex.

That appears to be her preference, yes. Oh, wait... not how you meant it.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:56 AM
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31: Yeah, that sounds like she really physically dislikes it, not just that it's not her favorite thing. I'd start introspecting about what the kissing does for you, and see how you can get that some other way. Symbolic affection? Maybe channel that into hugging/snuggling/fondling/you kissing her other than on the mouth if she doesn't mind that? The literal oral sensation for you? Again, maybe non-mutual kissing if that's not what she minds.

But that does really sound as if there's not much room for persuasion. If she really dislikes it, she dislikes it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:01 AM
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Bill, in your situation, I'd probably really throw myself into cunnilingus. Much of the oral satisfaction of kissing can be replicated.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:03 AM
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throw myself into cunnilingus.

Pro tip -- symbolically, not literally. Severe impact is contraindicated.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:04 AM
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Or in situations where nudity is also contraindicated, try neck nuzzling. Don't underestimate the semi-erogenous bit behind the collar bone.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:07 AM
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Sounds to me like the couple needs to go out on more dates.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:08 AM
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Don't underestimate the semi-erogenous bit behind the collar bone.

I tried that and they always go into a faint.


Posted by: Opinionated Spock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:22 AM
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So, nosy question, but you're the one who wrote in with an ATM.

If the issue is just the literal kissing thing, that seems very soluble, and no big deal. On the other hand, it seems possible that what's bothering you is that while Hillary's willing to do a fair amount to keep you happy, she doesn't particularly want to be physically affectionate with you, and you're feeling deprived of affection, not just of literal kissing, and worried about what the lack of affection means in terms of how she feels about you. Is that part of what's going on? Because that seems like a bigger issue, if it's there.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:30 AM
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If you want physical affection aside from sex, you could always get a dog.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:47 AM
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Do you stay cleanshaven? A light scruff can be abrasive pretty quickly. (I have heard a full beard is softer.)


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:54 AM
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Walking in my neighborhood the other day, I saw a woman wearing ankle boots covered in shearling, with chunky wooden heels that looked like hooves. It was like someone had designed a shoe to drive a sheepdog mad with the need to herd -- I didn't have DogBreath with me, but I'm guessing she would have been at the end of the leash, straining to nip at the woman's ankles.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:55 AM
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Sorry, that was totally off-topic. Something about 55 brought it to mind.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:55 AM
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55 wasn't exactly on-topic in terms of being useful.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:56 AM
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55:No kissing would a total dealbreaker for us.


Posted by: bob's evil dogs | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:59 AM
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What? Dogs love to kiss. Mine is particularly adept about slipping me the tongue.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:02 AM
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Sigh. Now I just really want to kiss someone.


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:11 AM
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62: My dog isn't currently seeing anyone.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:13 AM
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At least not exclusively.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:14 AM
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Dogs love to kiss.

Tweety's aunt has a rescue dog that is still, after several years with her, very skittish and prone to snapping and even biting if you approach him wrong. It breaks my heart to see the dog sitting there and very clearly wanting affection from humans, but no one except Tweety's aunt can pet him. I recently discovered that if you get down on the dog's level and make kissing noises at him, he will come over and kiss you.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:21 AM
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66

What about the canonical pork chop tied around the neck?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:25 AM
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(I have heard a full beard is softer.)

You never kissed a guy with a full beard?

I'm mostly surprised because it's not like you need Grizzly Adams to get softness; my whiskers are pretty soft after 2 weeks, and they grow slowly (although that may coincide with finer/softer hairs; we're at n=1 here).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:26 AM
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AFAICT, dogs and cats are not crazy about being kissed or licked by humans, my impression is that they think it is a little weird. Humans have talented hands to give affection. It is not wise to aggressively move your own face toward an animal's face.

But the kissing and licking (and small nips) of a human face is very important in a human-dog/cat relationship of mutual trust and affection. It is the time the human trusts and accepts a slightly subordinate position, and not flinching or drawing back is critical.

I think dogs do accept a certain asymmetry between the species, and they need to observe and have some access to a humans hands and face.

Cats bump noses with humans when you are treating them right, Not sure about kids.

Also not sure how I feel about human mouth-kissing, since it is soooo Western. I like it.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:30 AM
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On the side dispute in the OP: 12 years in, we kiss way more than Bill and Hill, but I do sometimes wish we kissed more. We peck all the time and often will kiss fully on the lips, but tongue is oddly rare. I've never asked if this is a thing (and it may, in fact, be whisker-driven), but there it is.

Actually, a major factor may be that it's because we most often have morning sex, and morning breath discourages open mouth kissing. I'll have to start keeping a log.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:30 AM
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66 to the OP?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:30 AM
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I'm very pro-beard, unless the person shaves basically daily. Cause that one-day shit is scratchy as hell. Keep the beard. Looks cute, feels good, less upkeep for you less annoyance for me.

I find it amusing how much my opinion on this has changed over the years. As an adolescent slash barely adult I thought facial hair was disgusting (although some of that could have been socially-encouraged posturing). Now I think a well-groomed beard (no neck hair, guys, seriously) is plain old sexy.

And also beards are much more en vogue now. I wonder if and when the non-ironic mustache will come back into fashion.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:31 AM
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I'll have to start keeping a log.

They're shooting a Twin Peaks remake in Pittsburgh?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:33 AM
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73

I haven't read a single comment, but I hope I'm not the first to say that this whole thing only makes sense if the "partner" is a hooker. In which case, pay some more money, you cheapskate -- this isn't the secret service.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:34 AM
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we most often have morning sex

I've always wanted to be one of the people that did this. Sounds like a very nice way to start out the day. But man, I am just not wired that way. I've actually come to the conclusion that my prime sex-desiring hours are about 2-6 pm. Which is really inconvenient, given that whole work thing.

Do long-time couples actually have sex in the morning like, on weekdays? This is amazing to me.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:34 AM
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I'm very pro-beard, unless the person shaves basically daily.

Are there many post-college men who don't shave daily and don't have a beard?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:35 AM
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since it is soooo Western

A couple of former gfs beg to differ. Kissing is universally awesome, except with dogs, when it's gross.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:35 AM
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I'm thinking I haven't. My gentleman callers have been clean-shaven. Maybe one had an artistic beard, but I don't remember a texture.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:35 AM
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morning breath discourages open mouth kissing

Protip: keep a tart apple by the bedside.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:36 AM
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I wonder if and when the non-ironic mustache will come back into fashion.

I'm pretty sure it already is. You could argue about the irony level with which some people are sporting it, but it's common enough to have moved beyond hipsterdom, I would say.



Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:36 AM
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75: yes, tons.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:37 AM
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Protip: keep a tart apple by the bedside.

Or an apple tart. Or just a pie.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:38 AM
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75: Me.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:39 AM
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80: They go to work looking like Sonny Crockett wanna-bes from 1984?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:39 AM
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83 before seeing 82. And I'm sure it looks great on you.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:40 AM
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76:I hear tell McDonald's and KFC have also gotten around in the last century. Try Wiki, rather than getting your knowledge from a couple mogos

My heart agrees with Halford in 73, but I have so much trouble accepting the European societies have been more affectionate, and treated women better, for fucking millenia than say Asians. Just sticks in my craw.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:42 AM
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I think I'd find it pretty weird to be with someone who actively and definitively stopped wanting to kiss me, since kissing is among other things a means of affirming emotional attachment. A couple needn't be making out like teenagers for half an hour every day, but turning off the tap altogether? With a lot of people it would be a signal of more general withdrawal.

OTOH I'm sentimental about kissing. Since Science tells us that on the veldt, men are supposed to view kissing as a means to an end, I should probably find out what has corrupted the purity of my masculine essence... but long, lazy makeout sessions have never lost their charm for me. It's not a question of not having to put up with them anymore because, as an adult, I can just have sex now.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:43 AM
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Is that Skylab falling over there?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:44 AM
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bob, I don't kiss people who eat at McDonald's. It leads to stinky breath.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:44 AM
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86.last: For some values of "now".


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:44 AM
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85:make that "moga" dammit, モダンガール modan gaaru


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:46 AM
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Huh, I guess pwned by 73, which puts the point a bit more bluntly. But Bob is right that we also need to factor in whether the President is getting any nose-rubbing or eyelash-nibbling action.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:46 AM
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89: Yeah. And in theory and all that.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:47 AM
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93

Present-day Japanese women generally don't feel that being modern makes them less Japanese, imperialist.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:49 AM
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Since comment threads are more fun if people take extreme, only semi-defensible positions, I'm going to be that guy and stake out the "your relationship is doomed" space. If the lack of kissing was made up for by general physical compatibility and affection in other areas, you'd be satisfied and we wouldn't be getting an ATM question. Since we are getting the question, you're most likely seriously physically incompatible, which is super difficult to fix (unless there's an obvious explanation, like one of you has stopped grooming). Therefore, doomed. Get out and find a smooch compatible babe, before you're caught with Monica.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:49 AM
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I'll take the other extreme position. After a relationship has progressed to the point that genitals are involved, open-mouthed kissing should stop completely. Closed-mouth kissing should only be used in public or semi-public situations where not showing affection might cause people to talk (i.e. at the wedding of the couple).


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:56 AM
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And by 'i.e.', I meant 'e.g.'


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:57 AM
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74: On the rare occasion that we've ditched the kids someplace, yep. Mornings are nice.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:57 AM
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Get out and find a smooch compatible babe

How can you be sure of this? After all, it sounds like Hillary seemed smoooch compatible enough for a good while.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:58 AM
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Kamikaze Girls is fun for all of us with the heart of a 14 year old girl. Or maybe 12. Clean and sweet while being just transgressive and play-mean enough. I liked that the "Lolly" was the cynical nihilist, and the rough biker chick had the social values.

And none of the yechhy smooching suff, especially with dogs.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:59 AM
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100

98: Pre-nup.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:02 AM
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94: Not to be all "your relationship is doomed" as well, but point 3 in the original post would worry me a bit along the same lines, mostly because you weren't dead sure it was a joke.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:02 AM
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95: Oral Stalinist. If you're willing to use open mouths on one another's genitals, open mouthed kissing should obviously be on the table.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:03 AM
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Assumes facts not in evidence. Maybe oral sex is limited to closed mouth nuzzling as well.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:03 AM
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102: So you're with 38.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:04 AM
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102: You can't do both at once so therefore you must pick one or the other.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:05 AM
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103: My God, that would be frustrating.

104: There's wisdom there, it's true.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:08 AM
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101 seems right to me.

If we're staking out extreme positions let me suggest going for it on #3 as if it were dead serious. Advertize on Craigslist for a smooch mate. I bet they're out there.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:13 AM
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I've actually come to the conclusion that my prime sex-desiring hours are about 2-6 pm. Which is really inconvenient, given that whole work thing.

THIS. Or earlier in the day, whatever. I am just completely beat in the evenings, and it is a really inconvenient circadian rhythm.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:14 AM
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109

I have an office with a door, so no worries.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:18 AM
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Walking in my neighborhood the other day, I saw a woman wearing ankle boots covered in shearling, with chunky wooden heels that looked like hooves. It was like someone had designed a shoe to drive a sheepdog mad with the need to herd -- I didn't have DogBreath with me, but I'm guessing she would have been at the end of the leash, straining to nip at the woman's ankles.

Isn't there some short story about the devil driving up and hitting on this young girl who has stayed home from church, and he has cloven hooves in his boots? (It's at least a country song, I know that much. He drives a Coup Deville.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:18 AM
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Ooh, wait, I meant option 3 in 29.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:21 AM
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108: Office sex can be pretty good. Risky, but...


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:21 AM
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Come to think, possibly the shoes were meant to attract Welshmen.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:21 AM
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75: In workplaces where t-shirts and men's sandals are considered acceptable, shaving need not occur every day. O what hath casual Fridays wrought?


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:22 AM
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Don't underestimate the semi-erogenous bit behind the collar bone.

It never would have occurred to me to find the rotator cuff sexy.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:25 AM
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Once I saw a complete silverware set where all the handles were animal hooves, ranging from probably deer to maybe raccoons or rabbits. There's a picture of it in the archives of my personal blog, somewhere.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:26 AM
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(It's at least a country song, I know that much. He drives a Coup Deville.)

I don't know that song, but it makes me think of this song as well (which contains neither devil nor boots but seems related anyway).


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:26 AM
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113: Then they also should have a ribbon to indicate she doesn't kick.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:28 AM
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117: I was thinking of Brokenheartsville.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 10:54 AM
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I shave like once a week. Sometimes less. I think it is an expression of something, but it might also be that my skin has gotten all sensitive since I took youse guys's stupidhead advice and started using shaving cream, and protests at being shaven too often.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:37 AM
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121

What did you shave with before, Smearcase? No shaving cream, just water? A knapped rock?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:40 AM
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71.3: I missed this earlier, and I'm curious: what is a non-ironic mustache, as opposed to an ironic one?


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:43 AM
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I shave every day and now that I have learned how to hone the disposable cartridges, I get about 6 to 8 weeks from a blade.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:44 AM
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124

Lately I've taken to lightly "shaving" the soap and then my face. Works pretty well with my current razor.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:44 AM
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123: LB got you to quit trying to home them?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:46 AM
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126

Instead of shaving cream?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:46 AM
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I dedicate this classic country song to the OP.

Or possibly this one is more appropriate.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:47 AM
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128

126 to 124.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:47 AM
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126: Cream doesn't shave well, and ice cream's too cold.

I "invented" this on a trip after the 2nd or 3rd time I lost my shaving cream at the airport (alternating road trips and flying trips screw me up).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:52 AM
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I too shave about once a week, because my face can't handle any more than that, plus, shaving is tedious. A, um, woman of my acquaintance says that 3-4 days' growth is optimal.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:53 AM
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120. Try this stuff. Most of their products are usable by the most sensitive bodies. I just use the bar soap from the same firm, but I know some people don't like shaving with soap.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 11:54 AM
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It never would have occurred to me to find the rotator cuff sexy.

Oh... I still reminisce about the kisses of a man at just that spot. I melt thinking about it. Come to think of it, there may be only one man who has ever kissed me there, and just that once. But, oh. Kudos, that guy, kudos. Yes, I recommend highly paying attention to just that spot.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:16 PM
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I would be happier with more kissing, but then we'd have to find time and energy for it and I can see why it doesn't happen. I think that's mostly a new-parent thing, but also think it might be normal that as relationships get older it's easier for kissing to fall by the wayside. It is also, as ever, possible that I'm just really bad at relationships and quickly suck all joy out of the heart of anyone who'd ever care for me or something like that. That's generally my worry.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:28 PM
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134

Ironic Mustaches.

Non-ironic mustaches.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:28 PM
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135

It is also, as ever, possible that I'm just really bad at relationships and quickly suck all joy out of the heart of anyone who'd ever care for me or something like that. That's generally my worry.

Ol' Buzzkill Thorn, worrying about being a buzzkill. Again.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:29 PM
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121: Yes, hot water. Sometimes a bit of soap. There is a fascinating discussion of it somewhere in TFA.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:30 PM
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135: I am giggling at my desk, so clearly you're whatever the opposite of a buzzkill is.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:32 PM
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134.2 is right.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:32 PM
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It's not that all non-policeman mustaches are "ironic" per se --- clearly an aesthetic has developed around them that The Kids These Days appreciate --- it's that they are necessarily "knowing": to wear a mustache is to be The Guy That Wears A Mustache. Beards, on the other hand, are a free-for-all.

(That second link is balls, m. leblanc.)


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:34 PM
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sex is fine (although currently constrained due to an injury)

This part seems relevant and I'm surprised no one has mentioned it so far.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:36 PM
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139.last: Non-ironic balls.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:38 PM
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142

A non-ironic mustache is a mustache that a person wears because he believes it looks good.

An ironic mustache is a mustache that a person wears because he believes it is amusing.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:42 PM
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142: But then the non-ironic mustache has been back in fashion for a decade.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:47 PM
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139: Surely there have been way too many mustaches around for too long for this to be true.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:49 PM
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Do people more commonly have mustaches in Canada or something?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:52 PM
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I'll buy that distinction in 142. I still think that more than half the mustaches I see around here are non-ironic.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:52 PM
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Canada: America with a mustache.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:52 PM
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it's that they are necessarily "knowing": to wear a mustache is to be The Guy That Wears A Mustache

If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive. (I don't buy that a mustache is some special case.)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:56 PM
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Surely there have been way too many mustaches around for too long for this to be true.

All right then. Mustaches which refer to the Dying Gaul are not ironic; those which refer to the emperor Elagabalus are ironic.

That long enough for you?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:56 PM
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130.last: Hooray?


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:57 PM
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140: Sex is in some ways less intimate than kissing. To some people, at least. That's why I don't think the sex part counts against the suspicion that there is a deeper problem. Depends on the sex, too. If it's boring old routine or crazy swinging from the chandelier shrieking like a couple of baboons on crystal meth makes a big difference.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 12:58 PM
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151: I was referring specifically to the "currently constrained" part.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:00 PM
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I was wondering a bit about that -- an injury that completely rules out sex for long enough to notice is either fairly severe or indicative of a lack of either motivation or problem solving skills.

I hate to be wrecking the Clintons' marriage here, but there does seem to be stuff going on. Or not going on.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:02 PM
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boring old routine or crazy swinging from the chandelier shrieking like a couple of baboons on crystal meth

Which of these is supposed to be the more intimate one?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:05 PM
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OT: One has been informed that one will be attending something titled Götterdämmerung this evening. I understand that this brief, light operetta is comprised of broadly (some say clownishly) comical vignettes of Belle Époque Paris, but please correct me if I am wrong. My real question: At what point do I start the Wave ("Woooo! Classical music!"? Is it tier-by-tier? Does the conductor give a signal or something?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:09 PM
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156

You're not fooling anyone, Flip.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:10 PM
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I agree with 141 and Halford's "it's doomed" theory. I could find it really easy to fuck someone I was sort of out of love with (but still liked, like in a friendly married people kinda way), but passionate kissing would get old real fast in that circumstance. Sex can feel good just because of the feeling, but with kissing I feel like you pretty much have to be into the person (or it's a new relationship/fuckship) for it to be in any way enjoyable.

Of course, surely there are people who just genuinely don't enjoy kissing. In which case I am full of shit.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:11 PM
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158

Sure, ridicule my fears.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:12 PM
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It's cute when Flip is a NYC WASP doing an impersonation of a hapless sitcom hetero doofus doing his impersonation of a NYC WASP.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:12 PM
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fuckship

Awesome.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:12 PM
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159: He's like the anti-David Brooks!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:14 PM
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159: I'm from New England, originally.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:14 PM
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155: When the dragon comes out, you throw the toast.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:15 PM
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157 is probably right, but I'd also like to think there might be phases? I mean, if this is just a relationship, by all means, break up now, but if there are kids and property involved, it might be worth some kind of more serious intervention.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:15 PM
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I'm from New England, originally.

Even better.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:16 PM
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OK. Since nobody else will say it, Götterdämmerung is fucking awesome. It was a 19th century attempt at creating a multimedia event, it's extremely extreme, and all you have to do is sit there and let it roll over you.

Enjoy.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:18 PM
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Or we could all just be absolutely wrong and she just physically doesn't like kissing. I started all the worrying about the subtext of the question, but it easily might be that there's no subtext going on.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:18 PM
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If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive.

Because to be "knowing" is such a terrible thing? It's just the post^n-modern (n >= 2, I've lost track) ethos at work.

(I don't buy that a mustache is some special case.)

Oh, it's not. The same logic applies to bow ties and sweater vests, fedora hats and granny glasses.


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:18 PM
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154: I think you need a certain level of mutual affection to be having baboon sex after you've been together for a while. The regular routine stuff just requires showing up.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:18 PM
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Whenever anyone sings "Siegfried" you yell "asshole!" and whenever anyone sings "Brunnhilde" you yell "slut!"

A friend just said he isn't going this evening and I told him he's missing the funniest moment of the LePage Ring. You'll know when you get there.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:19 PM
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Or we could all just be absolutely wrong and she just physically doesn't like kissing.

I actually think this is the mostly likely answer.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:21 PM
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OPERA THREAD!!!

[somewhere in the distance, a faucet drips. time passes. a bird sings a wistful tune.]


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:21 PM
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163 is great.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:21 PM
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168.last: Tan shoes and pink shoelaces, a polkadot vest and man oh man, tan shoes and pink shoelaces and a big Panama with a purple hat band!


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:21 PM
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OPERA THREAD!!!

This has really been your week, hasn't it?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:22 PM
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Oh, the injury is minor, just a 7-10 day thing. Dermatology stitches thing, just happens to be right now. Unrelated to the non kissing which is much longer term.
We bought our first toy recently which made things more interesting on that front.


Posted by: WJC | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:24 PM
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Obligatory Ring reference.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:25 PM
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178

174 to the perennial question of what to wear to the opera.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:26 PM
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179

Since there hasn't been much effort so far to develop ideas for item 4 of the OP, let me be the first to suggest heroin lip gloss.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:27 PM
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180

I knew it was going to be Anna Russell!


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:28 PM
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I know nothing about opera, but the line "Because Hagen gives Siegfried a magic potion that makes him forget all about Brünnhilde and fall in love with Gutrune Gibich...who by the way is the only woman that Siegfried has ever come across who hasn't been his aunt. ..." has stuck with me forever.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:30 PM
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Because to be "knowing" is such a terrible thing?

Not necessarily! But I was reading your comment as saying it was. I think we're more on the same page than I thought.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:33 PM
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If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive.

That's certainly always my policy.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:38 PM
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184

Dragon: toast. [Scribbles notes.] Good, good.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:38 PM
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181. It's a lovely line, but she stole it from Victor Borge (I think she credits him elsewhere).


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:39 PM
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181: I know nothing about opera,

Same here other than it ain't over 'til the wet ladies get the ring.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:41 PM
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I took the name of my opera blog from Victor Borge.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 1:54 PM
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157: Fuck Halford, it's MY theory and was so back at 43. Anyone know anything about IP law around here?


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 2:05 PM
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189

Fuck Halford

But on no account kiss him.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 2:07 PM
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If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive. (I don't buy that a mustache is some special case.)

I'm not going to argue this strongly, but I think that the mustache is at least a semi-special case because it was deeply out of fashion for a long time. So much so that people frequently use the term "pornstache" to refer to, well, mustaches. Like, your standard, 2-3 weeks' worth of whiskers above the lips, extending just beyond the corners of the mouth, was viewed as so outré that people had to hearken back to black socks, filmed-on-film porn to describe it.

Now, there's no reason mustaches couldn't have come back from that as just a normally fashionable thing; if George Clooney and Brad Pitt and, I don't know, Justin Timberlake had all started wearing normal mustaches* 5 years ago, no one would be talking about ironic ones. But instead, after 20-odd years of no one wearing them (I'd say Tom Selleck was the last iconic mustache), they were revived, very self-consciously and ironically, by hipsters. And so now it's hard to wear one without seeming to be making a point of doing so (needless to say, lots of men have continued to wear them, just as lots of men still wear mullets and oversized belt buckles without wishing to express anything more than, I like these things).

Anyway, leblanc's 142 really is perfect.

* that is, width between Hitler and fu manchu, thickness between John Waters and soup strainer; I'm not trying to be narrow about what's a "normal" mustache, just saying that I mean a 'stache that doesn't scream, "Look at my distinctive facial hair!"


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 2:07 PM
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If you follow this logic, you'll never style yourself in any way that might be distinctive.

BTW, I don't think this is where the logic goes, unless you pick a tendentious definition of "distinctive" style. There's a lot of wiggle room between "Mr. Boring has been dressed by Dockers" and "Mr. Distinctive appears to be wearing an AMC Pacer for a hat."

This past winter, I wore this one very nice cardigan sweater in lieu of a sport jacket at a number of occasions (holiday parties, meetings, nice dinners). I think that was a distinctive choice, but I don't think that it was a choice that shouted out for attention, or that read as, "JRoth sure likes to be The Guy In The Cardigan."

I'd add that facial hair is more likely to seem like an attention-getting device since, duh, it's on the face. I can wear awesome, funky shoes, but unless they're a bright color, many other people (OK, men) will not even notice them. But you can't not notice facial hair, unless it's 100% mainstream.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 2:14 PM
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192

I've had a mustache since 1978. You know, when the pace of change of fashions slowed down.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 2:22 PM
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I'll just add here that IMO 190.1 doesn't conflict with 168.last.

I think there are lots of clothes that it would be hard, if not impossible, to wear ironically, because (almost) no one would be able to tell that you were trying to be amusing. Acid-wash jeans, maybe. But regular Levi's, in a medium blue? Maybe you wouldn't look super fashionable, and maybe some tiny group of extremely fashionable people who know you to be hyper-conscious of fashion would find it amusing, but you're really at diminishing returns.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 2:23 PM
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(I should add that one can search the internet in vain for a picture of our local federal judge (the one who just took ss) sans stache. The fellow that hired me for my firm job, and was still there, running the office 18 years later, had a stache throughout. Judge Walton (DDC) has a nicely subtle stache. I never appeared before Judge Brieant, but I bet that wasn't irony.)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 2:39 PM
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195

149 made my afternoon.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 2:44 PM
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196

(Judge Brieant's obit. Mentions stache at end.)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 2:49 PM
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197

I dedicate this classic country song to the OP.

Since this thread has slowed down let me take the opportunity for a shameless threadjack. I just put up a country music mix.

I don't normally contribute anything to Apo's mix threads because it just takes me too darn long to put a mix together but I did this one relatively quickly. I put it together with the explicit intention of sharing with the mineshaft, so I'm curious for feedback.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 3:05 PM
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Speaking of fashion, what do you all make of this? Was the 90s the heyday of the skank? I don't remember it that way.*

*It's always the heyday of the skank as far as R. Halford is concerned, of course.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 3:43 PM
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It's always the heyday of the skank as far as R. Halford is concerned, of course.

Meaning you or the real one?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 3:51 PM
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200

*Were* the 90s.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 3:54 PM
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199 -- I am as real as my mind.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 4:01 PM
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198: I've been dreading the arrival of the retro-Nineties. But it's worse than I feared.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 4:24 PM
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if George Clooney and Brad Pitt and, I don't know, Justin Timberlake had all started wearing normal mustaches* 5 years ago, no one would be talking about ironic ones.

George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Jude Law, Heath Ledger, Robert Downey Jr., James Franco, Jason Schwartzman, Ricky Martin, Ryan Gosling, Sean Penn. All of these people have had mustaches in the past 5 years. Because it is a thing these days, a style that people try out, and not necessarily because they are so full of irony.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 4:54 PM
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That's retro-90s?

The shoes (bottom of the page) are awful. I give the gigantic chunky heels a year max.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 4:54 PM
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Probably because cruising the Forever 21 catalog is something that wouldn't have occurred to you otherwise.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 4:55 PM
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205 to 202.last.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 4:56 PM
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Don't forget Michael Jordan trying to bring back the Hitler-stache.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 4:57 PM
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His agent gave me five bucks to deny that it ever happened if anyone brings it up.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:01 PM
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In 203, I left out Justin Timberlake because he tends to do the stubbly mustache-beard combo, and Johnny Depp because he's usually got some goatee thing going on with his mustache.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:04 PM
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It remains my position that "ironic facial hair" is one of these much talked-about things for which there is little real evidence.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:13 PM
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Like evolution or the gold standard.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:22 PM
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Well, if it was like evolution, there'd be solid evidence all around us that humanity's entire relationship to hairstyles is based on irony. More like ghost or Chupacabra sightings or Republican bipartisanship.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:26 PM
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Maybe people haven't dug holes in the right places?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:27 PM
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It's true that we haven't accounted for all the gaps in the fashion record.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:30 PM
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I'm growing an ironic confucius beard, but it won't be done for twenty years and in the meantime I look like an earnest mongol.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:34 PM
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215: Yes, well, we all know about you and your facial hair.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 5:44 PM
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16

10: Huh. Using sex to manipulate your partner into giving you sex seems morally okay to me. ...

Regardless of the morality I think there is too much chance that this will backfire and Bill will end up worse off.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 7:59 PM
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|| BS on Letterman tomorrow. http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/schweitzer-visits-nyc-to-appear-on-letterman/article_8c1823d8-8e61-11e1-a8c0-0019bb2963f4.html Always a hoot. |>


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:18 PM
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I'm disappointed I missed this thread when it was on-topic. Lack of kissing in my marriage was one of the factors that led to the affair I'm currently sort of having.

In my case, it's a combination of a partner who isn't into kissing to begin with, combined with general relationship stress that made kissing less common. It's been a bit surprising to find that I could be having what seems to be a perfectly defensible amount of sex and still feel unfulfilled because of the lack of kissing.

(Among other things. That's not the only issue.)


Posted by: Other Clintonesque President | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:37 PM
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a perfectly defensible amount of sex

Can I borrow that, in case I ever write a novel and need a title?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:45 PM
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That is quite a bid at bringing things back on topic, I gotta say!


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 8:45 PM
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My marriage is pretty bad, and when I've had affairs, kissing again has definitely been very nice.


Posted by: Abe Lincoln | Link to this comment | 04-24-12 9:18 PM
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219- Define "sort of having"?
222- I assume you mean kissing the affairee, not that having an affair somehow created more kissing in your marriage.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:11 AM
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One more curious about 'sort of having'.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:01 AM
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My google skills are failing me, wasn't there a politician who didn't really cheat but used the euphemism, "I have been unfaithful in my heart?"


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:57 AM
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Jimmy Carter in a Playboy interview.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:59 AM
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That was Jimmy Carter.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:59 AM
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Thank you, Pwny 2012.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:00 AM
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Don't feel bad, yours had less information.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:01 AM
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Anyway, he lost to Reagan because women were afraid of him staring at their chest resurgent communist revisionism.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:06 AM
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Then clearly 219 should have been signed Jimmy C.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:22 AM
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I read 219 as referring to a sort of Me and Mrs Jones situation.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:30 AM
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When I read 219, it didn't seem that 'sort of' meant that the having was an internal state (eg JC) but that maybe the incidence of the affair had slackened to the point that 'having' might not really be an accurate description.

Only the President really knows, of course.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:34 AM
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I thought 219 was probably more of a Technical Virginity-type situation. How mysterious!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:38 AM
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I thought that 219 was a "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" thing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:40 AM
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Clearly, though, we must all kiss more to keep our relationships together.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:42 AM
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All of us? Because, you know, I really regard most of you guys more as friends.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:45 AM
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dogs and cats are not crazy about being kissed or licked by humans, my impression is that they think it is a little weird

When I was a kid I got a kick out of kissing the cat right on the mouth precisely because of the wtf is wrong with you look she would give me. (cats are great at that look)

This thread made me kinda sad. I know the adult thing to do is find a way to work through it, but when I imagine having a partner who doesn't want to kiss me, my emotional reaction is "deal-breaker! (*sob*)"

Probably related, I quite agree with 6.


Posted by: piminnowcheez | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 6:56 AM
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We had a dog for the majority of our relationship but it died a couple years ago and we can't invest the time now to get a new one. He was quite into kissing.


Posted by: WJC | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:39 AM
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|| I have accepted the offer of one short-lived but extremely adorable wolf cub. |>


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:44 AM
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Arctic predators united! Congratulations.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:45 AM
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240: Congratulations, AWB!

This thou perceivest, which makes thy love more strong
To love that well which thou must leave ere long


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:46 AM
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Speaking of fashion, what do you all make of this? Was the 90s the heyday of the skank? I don't remember it that way.

I think that, other than the dresses section, very little of that stuff actually looks like the 90s to me, and I'm not just saying that because the 90s looked exactly like 2012.

On the one hand, my high school, in northern NJ in the late 80s, was the very epicenter of the skank. OTOH, it is true that I was saddened when, by the mid-90s, all the single ladies were wearing very tight tops, whereas the girls in my HS mostly wore very loose tops (or tight tops with loose overshirts). Born too early.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:48 AM
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240WOOOOOO


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:48 AM
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240: ¡Viva el lobito! Congrats, Bear.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:48 AM
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Oh, and why is that store showing Wayfarers in their Totally 90s collection? They were so unfashionable by 1993 that even I noticed and stopped wearing them.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:50 AM
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Congrats!


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:51 AM
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Maybe it should have been a gazelle, not a wolf cub:

I never nursed a dear gazelle,
To glad me with its soft black eye,
But when it came to know me well,
And love me, it was sure to die.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:51 AM
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Yeah wolf cubs!


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:51 AM
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Good luck on the new job, AWB.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:52 AM
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Thanks, dudes. Those who are my friends in the other world will know the identity when I announce it publicly later today. I want to make sure my acceptance is confirmed and the contract is settled before naming names.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:53 AM
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I'm fascinated waiting to find out where a serious wolf-pack is with bad food.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:54 AM
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Congrats, AWB. Awesome.


Posted by: Stranded in Lubbock | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:56 AM
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Yay yay yay, AWB!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:58 AM
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Congratulations AWB. Are you going to celebrate by reviewing The Monk movie on line somewhere?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:59 AM
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252: Surely somewhere in Canadia?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:59 AM
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The food is so dreadful! That's probably only really true for vegetarians; everyone else at dinner had prime rib and it looked beautiful. So I'll cook a lot and everyone will be like so amazed. Where I am now, everyone cooks and is really good at it, and the restaurants are also fabulous, especially considering how rural we are. The wolf cub sort lives in a town a fifth as big as mine now.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:59 AM
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255: I really want to see it, except that a student told me she watched it and it was very dumb. I will see it, of course.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:00 AM
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wolf cub sort lives


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:02 AM
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Congratulations.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:07 AM
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Definitely the right choice, AWB.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:13 AM
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I only just worked out where Hogwarts is (I probably knew at one point and forgot). And it's totally different from the picture I'd built up from your comments. I thought it was a rural campus near a small town, when it's actually an urban campus in a small city.

It's remarkable how much better the restaurant scene is now in cities like that one, and in that one in particular, than it was 15 years ago.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:21 AM
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[gives wolf howl]


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:29 AM
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240: Good for you! Best wishes and all that stuff.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:30 AM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Three_Wolf_Moon.jpg


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:31 AM
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Yay, AWB!

I'd also like to thank the Mineshaft for helping me to make the choice everyone else thinks I'm an idiot for making.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:34 AM
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I'd also like to thank the Mineshaft for helping me to make the choice everyone else thinks I'm an idiot for making.

Hooray! Now should we link to the recent article by an incredibly famous member of your field saying, basically, "essear is an idiot"?


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:36 AM
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266: You went for the puppy as well?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:37 AM
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Congrats essear!


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:47 AM
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Yay essear! Puppies all round.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:53 AM
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Jimmy Carter in a Playboy interview.

I was just looking at that a couple months ago. Leaving aside the "lust in my heart" comment it's a fascinating example of how much the political culture has shifted in the last forty years.

First of all, Robert Scheer, the reporter who conducted the interview, notes that the whole story around the interview ended up being a little bit more awkward than it should have been because Carter agreed to the interview during the primaries when he wanted to reassure the liberal base that he wasn't too conservative and too Southern. They did a couple of sessions and, by the time it was published, the primaries were over and Carter was trying to appeal to the general electorate so he ended backing off from the interview.

But look at this following question and answer, it's so unscripted compared to anything you would see out of a campaign today:

Scheer: Every politician probably emphasizes different things to different audiences, but in your case there's been a common criticism that you seem to have several faces, that you try to be all things to all people. How do you respond to that?

Carter: I can't make myself believe these are contrivances and subterfuges that I've adopted to get votes. It may be, and I can't get myself to admit it, but what I want to do is let people know how I stand on the issues as honestly as I can.

It's obviously a political answer but what politician today would say, "perhaps I fooling myself, but I think I believe the positions that I'm taking"?

For the record, here is (part of) his answer about his religious beliefs:

I try not to commit a deliberate sin. I recognize that I'm going to do it anyhow, because I'm human and I'm tempted. And Christ set some almost impossible standards for us. Christ says, "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already committed adultery."

I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times. This is something God recognizes I will do -- and I have done it -- and God forgives me for it. But that doesn't mean that I condemn someone who not only looks on a woman with lust but who leaves his wife and shacks up with somebody out of wedlock.

Christ says, Don't consider yourself better than someone else because one guy screws a whole bunch of women while the other guy is loyal to his wife. The guy who's loyal to his wife ought not to be condescending or proud because of the relative degree of sinfulness. One thing that Pat Tillich said was that religion is a search for the truth about man's existence and his relationship with God and his fellow man; and that once you stop searching and think you've got it made -- at that point you lose your religion. Constant reassessment, searching in one's heart -- it gives me a feeling of confidence.

You can see what Carter was trying to say there, but you can also see why it struck people as odd.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:35 AM
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Congratulations AWB and Essear!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:38 AM
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Also, I would like to hear more lurid details from Clinton and Lincoln because I'm nosy like that.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:39 AM
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Also with the nosiness here.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:45 AM
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I am very proud of us for helping essear make a stupid decision!

Is there someone we can now convince to divorce/not divorce?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:48 AM
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Hooray for canines!


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:50 AM
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273,274: I thought I was going to have to be the first to suggest.

But I'm interested because I'm a feminist.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:50 AM
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Only if they describe their divorce/non-divorce options via elaborate metaphors, preferably involving pineapples.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:50 AM
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275.1: Yes, AWB and essear might pause* to consider what course of action would provide more red meat for the blog.

*Not now while they're basking in the glow, but six months from now.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:00 AM
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276: Halford and the paleo people agree.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:02 AM
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Congrats to essear and AWB.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:05 AM
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273- Let's make it clear that this is the second Clintonesque @ 219 (who 231 proposed calling Carter) not the original ATM asker, since Hillary might read this and we need to be clear there is no Monica.


Posted by: WJC | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:21 AM
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I would suggest that you differentiate yourself from the original ATM asker by posting as George Clinton. Or Bootsy Collins. I'm not fussy.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:24 AM
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Yay puppies. And shouldn't ogged be commenting on a puppies and carnal relations thread?


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:33 AM
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282 is the original ATM asker. 219 is George (or Jimmy).


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:34 AM
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285: Whoops, I had that crossed up. Yes, no Monica involved in the original ATM, or in any followup comments from the original ATM asker.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:37 AM
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I kind of feel like an ass now. I've disappointed nice people! To stay with egotistical people! Oh well.

Apologies to Mr Clinton for intruding on his thread. Kissing is nice. I have no useful thoughts on the problem.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:50 AM
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Good luck on your new job also.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:51 AM
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To stay with egotistical people the Boston unfoggedetariat!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:10 AM
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Is there someone we can now convince to divorce/not divorce?

We should focus on convincing people to divorce.



Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:21 AM
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I kind of feel like an ass now. I've disappointed nice people! To stay with egotistical people! Oh well.

Naaahh. I mean, there may well be egotistical people at your new location. I admit that as a possibility. But there will also be nice people! I bet!


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:25 AM
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My advisor's reply to my message telling him what I decided. I'm totally going to get an "I told you so" in a few years. (Overactive Googleproofing, I know.)

I'm glad that you dec/ded to do what you feel is the best for you, and not ba/sed on others adv/ce.

Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:25 AM
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Hahaha. Wow.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:26 AM
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292 is so, so awesome.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:30 AM
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I'm not sure he's really glad.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:30 AM
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That's an amazing line.

Do I understand right that "staying" is literally true?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:34 AM
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292: And if he only knew the rest of the story.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:48 AM
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Yes, staying in the same place, but with more work to do.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:49 AM
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Nice. Not moving is really key. A lot of the argument for taking a clearly permanent job now is that it means you don't have to move an extra time. But now if you leave in 5 years it won't actually mean you've moved an extra time!


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:51 AM
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Yes, staying in the same place, but with more work to do.

But hopefully less travel . . .

I say, your reported travel scheduled this last year is not something that I ever voluntarily subject myself to.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:51 AM
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I'll probably move within Camberville, but that won't be a huge hassle. Not a move-move.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:55 AM
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Yes, staying in the same place, but with more work to do.

I have to question the wisdom of this decision.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 11:58 AM
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Wow, how did I miss that this thread took off?

Congratulations to AWB and Essear!

Lincoln needs to provide more details.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:16 PM
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Lincoln and George Clinton aren't going to provide details. We should just make them up.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:32 PM
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I bet they are having affairs with each other. In the postcoital glow they smoke cigarettes and play "marry, fuck, kill" with the mineshaft as source material.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:35 PM
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Maybe Lincoln and George Clinton are seeing each other on the downlow.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:35 PM
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Honestly, togolosh. Why you gotta be like that?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:36 PM
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Or maybe "marry, fuck, pwn"


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:38 PM
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There's some phrase, "Spay, neuter, or ____ " which I can't remember what the third is, but I always think Fuck/Marry/Kill when I see it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:42 PM
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This thread should definitely be used for commenters to reveal the sordid details of their extramarital affairs. That can't possibly go wrong.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:44 PM
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Please list the income and SAT scores of everyone you are illicitly sleeping with.

Also the most they've ever spent on jeans.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:46 PM
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With that sordid stuff out of the way we can get on to means of deception and sexual practices.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:47 PM
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With that sordid stuff out of the way we can get on to means of deception and sexual practices.

Expressed entirely in coy metaphors.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:48 PM
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Are you suggesting that presidentiality is an imperfect means of concealment?

Oh, I should say -- the original ATM came in from unfoggedanon@gmail.com. President Clinton set up a brand new anonymous email account for it. If anyone else wants to use it for superanonymous ATM communications, he said the password is 'Who wants to sex Mutombo?'


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:48 PM
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Are you suggesting that presidentiality is an imperfect means of concealment?

It serves as one level of security. The coy metaphors are a second level.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:52 PM
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[H]e said the password is 'Who wants to sex Mutombo?'
He lied.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:53 PM
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I had a really beautiful metaphor per 278 involving peaches and oral allergy. But the interwebs ate it so now you don't get to enjoy it.


Posted by: di kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:54 PM
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Which, as Randall Munro has taught us (can't be arsed to find the link) would be much more secure than hKf9o3!x if it wasn't already out there.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:54 PM
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Not that I had a real purpose in trying to log in. I was just being nosy.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:54 PM
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313: So I pulled the full pineapple on my wife, and we ended up in a sleazy motel in the west end where the owl bought lunch for the pussycat and I mean big time.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:56 PM
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What he actually said was "Pass phrase is the standard meet up greeting, with correct capitalization, spacing, and final punctuation." Maybe I misspelled Mutombo?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:56 PM
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318: there was a reasonably convincing debunking of that xkcd (depends on the level of abstraction at which you calculate the entropy) which I in turn can't be arsed to find.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:56 PM
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"Eggplant" was already ahead in this game even before he tried applying his mad haxxor skillz.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 12:58 PM
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322: if you find it you should share it, though.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:00 PM
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standard meet up greeting, with correct capitalization, spacing, and final punctuation.

Hello. (?)


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:01 PM
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How do you spell looking nervously around trying to identify people who look as if they're from the Internet? (Or, in ajay's case, sitting quietly absorbed in a book. Ajay is terrible at looking like he's trying to find strangers in a bar.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:04 PM
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Staying in an unhappy marriage due to offspring. It's a common story, and my response is also. Kissing is lovely, requires mutual affection.


Posted by: Abe Lincoln | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:11 PM
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Shit, spelled Mutombo wrong, it's hard to type a long phrase with just dots echoing. Fixed now, except LB wasn't supposed to post the actual password on the public internet, just the hint.
Anyway, obviously if a site admin tracked the IP addresses of follow-up comments and matched those up with prior pseudonymous comments, yes they could figure out who this is. But that's effort to intentionally identify someone trying to be anonymous, vs. just telling them by sending from a known account.


Posted by: WJC | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:12 PM
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The password for your Google account - unfoggedanon@gmail.com - was recently changed. If you made this change, you don't need to do anything more.

Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:13 PM
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Oh, heh. The only reason I checked the account was that I thought by "the original ATM" LB meant the first ever, and I was curious what that was (but not curious enough to search the archives).


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:15 PM
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JM validating 273.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:16 PM
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Abe, I'm awfully sorry. That sounds like a horrible, grinding experience. Or rather, not grinding. Or not in the good way, I mean.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:18 PM
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I checked unfoggedanon's 3 google+ account notifications, too! (As you might have guessed, it was all google spam.)


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:19 PM
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The hivemind has a shared email account now? Wow. We can all, like, leave secret messages for each other there.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:20 PM
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328: Whoops. I'll edit when I get home.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:23 PM
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Anonymous secret messages! Like, "I like this person do you think she likes me?" And that could lead to high school style makeout sessions and everyone will be happy.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:26 PM
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Anonymous secret messages! Like, "I like this person do you think she likes me?" And that could lead to high school style makeout sessions and everyone will be happy.

So we've gone from describing extramarital affairs to arranging them?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:49 PM
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We are nothing if not proactive.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 1:53 PM
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I don't know that the blog has a policy, generally, on extramarital affairs, but while I'll listen endlessly to people talking about their marital problems, I would prefer not to be instrumental in engendering too many of them. IYSWIM.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:01 PM
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We're getting closer and closer to just saying fuck it and having a big orgy, aren't we.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:03 PM
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In a swimming pool, apparently.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:07 PM
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I don't know that the blog has a policy, generally, on extramarital affairs

It's a symptom of the inexorable aging of the 'tariat. 10 years ago almost nobody was married. Now look.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:08 PM
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340: Well, Unfoggeddecagon is next year. Until then, I'm not quite sure how we're supposed to work an orgy with the materials at hand.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:10 PM
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with the materials at hand.

...must try and think....


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:14 PM
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If you sign in to the unfoggedanon Gmail account and look at the chat box, there's a username there that shows LB's real-life surname. I'm not sure if the information in this thread is making that undesirably public or not.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:15 PM
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Or maybe it wasn't until I pointed it out, when I could have gone through less public channels. Oops.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:17 PM
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Dammit. I hate gmail -- that shouldn't have happened.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:18 PM
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It's worse than that. Your full name is offered as a potential member of a circle.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:24 PM
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Seriously, that's fucked up. I emailed with Unfoggedanon from my gmail account, but using the lizardbreath@unfogged.com address. Wouldn't you think that would have tipped gmail off to the idea that I didn't intend to give out my realname gmail address?

I changed the password on the Unfoggedanon account. If I can figure out how to clean my name off it, I'll post the password again.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:25 PM
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Clearly the password on the gmail account should be changed. It's really not good for it to be *this* public.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:25 PM
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Yay AWB, yay essear.

Is there someone we can now convince to divorce/not divorce?

Too late! But without getting into too much detail, let's just say that the return to the kissing life is pretty goddamn sweet.

Good luck, Abe.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:25 PM
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This is all pretty minor, privacy-wise; anyone who cared who I was could figure it out and there wouldn't be any important repercussions for me. But honestly, gmail -- what part of "Oh, good, your service allows me to send and receive emails from an alternate email address, so I don't have to log into another service to send and receive emails from an address that doesn't have my real name on it," implies "Give my real name to everyone I email though this account, regardless of the email address I'm using."


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:28 PM
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Was there ever a completely anonymous, not "pick a new pseud" but "nobody use a name at all" thread? I'm not saying there should be. We had something equivalent to that in an English class Freshman year of college and it was not pretty.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:33 PM
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Here's the text from Gmail's account help:

Alternate email addresses and other Google products

Before adding alternate email addresses to your account, make sure you read the following information to understand how they work across different products.

Alternate email addresses and Google Docs, Sites, and Calendar

When your contacts share content with your alternate email address via Google Docs or Google Sites, your primary email address will still be displayed. For example, when someone shares a document with an alternate email address that is associated with a Gmail address, the Gmail username will appear instead of the alternate email address.

In Calendar, alternate addresses now behave differently. When someone sends a Google Calendar invitation to your alternate account, the primary email address on your Google Account remains hidden, but you're notified of the event at your alternate email inbox.

Alternate email addresses and Google Profiles

If you have a Google profile, at the top of your Edit profile page, you'll see the domains of all your verified email addresses associated with your account. Select the domains you'd like to display on your profile (keep in mind that we won't display your full email addresses), and save your changes.

When people who know you visit your profile and see, for example, your school's domain name, they'll know your profile was created by you.

Learn more about how connecting other email addresses to your account can help you and your friends find each other on Google.

I do not see this as saying "If you email someone from an alternate email address, we will tell them your primary email address and the name associated with it." Jesus. Again, not a personal security problem, but a fucking pissoff.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:37 PM
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In a fit of pique, I deleted the unfoggedanon@gmail account, because there wasn't any other obvious way to clean my contact information off it. That may have been a jerky thing to do -- sorry, WJC.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:44 PM
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Yeah, it sucks that Gmail does that. I somehow thought Google was better at this sort of thing than Facebook, though I haven't paid too much attention.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:51 PM
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Man, do I feel like a chump. I really am slack about emailing people from my realname email account, so half the time when someone emails lizardbreath@unfogged.com I email back from my realname without worrying about it too much -- I'm barely anonymous. But I'm finding the fact that even when I didn't do that, gmail still put out my real name without in any way that I can see making it obvious that that was going to happen enraging.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 2:52 PM
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I'm generally fairly ready to blame myself for not reading the fine print, but I've been poking through Gmail's online documentation, and I'm really not seeing what I missed here. If someone would point me to the page that shows that I should have known how that would work, I'd actually be happier and less pissed off.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 3:01 PM
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Sigh. Got a new computer today for work and accidentally went to a fake Firefox site and gave it my phone number. All my assets are probably halfway to Lagos by now.

P.S. There are way too fucking many threads for me to follow right now. Whatever happened to PACING?!?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 3:04 PM
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Whatever happened to PACING?!?

Wrong thread.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 3:05 PM
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P.P.S. As usual, I do not like the new Windows GUI. Bring back the command line, I say!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 3:05 PM
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I somehow thought Google was better at this sort of thing than Facebook, though I haven't paid too much attention.

I've seen no evidence that this is the case. If anything, they're worse. Remember the Buzz debacle?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 3:16 PM
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Why would Firefox get your phone number at all?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 3:16 PM
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Because it reads your thoughts, Moby. But only in Russian.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 3:51 PM
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God, 311 is good.

I think I've noted this before, but it's relevant: I'm pleased to report that my infidelity to BOGF has been thoroughly confirmed as a BOGF-specific phenomenon, and I've been almost Jimmy Carter-faithful to AB and HS GF.

Sorry, laydeez.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 3:55 PM
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I regret that I understand 364.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 3:58 PM
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I knew you would.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:00 PM
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I cheated a lot in several through age 22 or so.. It was because I was pathologically unable to end relationships, much like the recent ATM, and cheating served several purposes.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:02 PM
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Several relationships, that should read.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:03 PM
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God, 311 is good.

You're all mixed up.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:04 PM
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Is there nothing worse than trying to do italics on an iPad?


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:05 PM
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I bet there are a few things.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:06 PM
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If you want to end a relationship without directly saying so, wouldn't being a huge asshole be much easier than cheating?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:06 PM
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LIKE BEING CHEATED ON BY YOUR GF WHO WON'T JUST END IT ALREADY.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:07 PM
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wouldn't being a huge asshole be much easier than cheating?

But cheating lets you be an asshole and get some on the side. Win-win!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:08 PM
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If you want to end a relationship without directly saying so, wouldn't being a huge asshole be much easier than cheating?

Why choose?


Posted by: Crypic ned | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:08 PM
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376: Who has time for both?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:10 PM
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373: that actually takes a bit of maturity. Good girls don't hurt other people's feelings, see.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:15 PM
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I personally can't even begin to judge negatively cheating in Abe Lincoln's situation (affirmatively unhappy marriage being kept together for sake of kids alone), but, as a divorced Dad, I challenge the premise that it's a good idea to keep together the unhappy marriage for the sake of the kids. Divorce does suck, a lot, but it's not that hard to co-parent and I'm dubious of benefits to the children from sticking it out in a super unhappy marriage that's gotten to the point where cheating feels like the only way out. If you're proactive about it you can make the divorce much more smooth, and thus much easier on the kids.

Again, this is just my perspective -- everyone is different and I really can't presume to know or judge what's going on. But the shame of getting divorced is a lot easier to deal with than the horror of being stuck in an unhappy marriage forever.

I am not just trying to drum up business for Will, I swear.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:16 PM
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Heebie understands JRoth in his 20s.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:28 PM
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You're all mixed up.

Don't know what to do.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:37 PM
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381: Go get an epipen. P-Nut allergies are no time for indecisiveness.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:47 PM
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As another divorced dad, I endorse 379. Of course, I had a relatively amicable divorce and have 50/50 custody.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 4:58 PM
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We're getting closer and closer to just saying fuck it and having a big orgy, aren't we.

Sex grottoes!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:06 PM
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The UnfoggeDecadeCon house definitely needs to have at least one sex grotto.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:11 PM
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As another divorced dad, I endorse 379 sex grottoes.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:15 PM
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There should also be a kissing grotto.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:17 PM
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Maybe a series of grottoes for activities ranging in intensity from kissing to sex (and beyond!), sort of like the Roman baths.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:18 PM
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I think kissing is supposed to happen in booths, as linked from the OP.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:19 PM
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So put a booth in the grotto.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:22 PM
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Also, the budget on this thing is limited, unless zombie CB DeMille shows up and wants to play. You want a rubdown with olive oil and a good scraping with a strigil, you need to talk someone into putting on the toga yourself.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:23 PM
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It wouldn't have to be literally like the Roman baths.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:25 PM
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388: "Wait. What? You want me to do what with that strigil?!"


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:26 PM
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That stings. Like that fermented fermented goddamn fish paste.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:27 PM
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We're supposed to provide a metaphorical sex grotto now? Man, teo, back when you were a virgin you weren't so demanding.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:27 PM
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What's so hard about a metaphorical sex grotto? It's certainly cheaper than the real kind.

What I meant, however, was a series of real grottoes devoted to various amorous activities of different intensities, analogous to the series of pools of water at different temperatures found at the Roman baths. I now have a renewed appreciation for the importance of the analogy ban.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:36 PM
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What's so hard about a metaphorical sex grotto?

"What" isn't the problem.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:37 PM
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When? How? Wherefore?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:38 PM
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I suggested a house in Palm Springs with multiple sex grottos, but you all were like "oh maybe we should do this in some faculty home in Pittsburgh."


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:40 PM
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Not quite Pittsburgh, but close enough.

The essential concept of the grotto, however, transcends any single time, place, or artistic style. As a "metaphor of the cosmos," the grotto universally represents birth, sexuality, and death--themes intimately connected to the highly feminized rococo and, as we will suggest, to the Philadelphia high chest itself.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 5:48 PM
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As a non-divorced dad who has stayed together (so far) in part because of the mutual parenting responsibility, I've got a slightly different perspective than 379. But then, I felt my marriage was pretty good outside of the sexual stuff, so that makes a big difference, too.

The parenting stuff was specific to our son - I was just pretty clear that there were times when he needed me specifically and times when he needed his mom, and those times didn't fit very well into a fixed schedule, no matter what co-parenting schedule we might have been able to work out, even with a lot of cooperation. Also didn't want to add to his school difficulties beyond what he was facing already. Not judging anyone else's situation here.

One thing I've discovered since he's moved out to college is how much I enjoy just hanging out with my wife. Not much progress on the sexual front, and there may never be, but we do enjoy each other's company. Not sure if that's sufficient to stay together, but I'm not in a rush to leave right now.

Sympathies for everyone stuck in these situations, including the OP.


Posted by: EDguy | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:13 PM
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379. I can manage either outcome. I do not want to put my kid through a custody fight, and don't want to risk my wife's getting half-custody, as she has real anger management problems. Her spite and rage are better directed at me than a minor. This way, there's a smooth surface to life, and many days are genuinely OK. I'm giving my kid a stable childhood, my best choice this month. Not fooling around now, fwiw.


Posted by: Abe Lincoln | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:49 PM
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Hotels have cleaning people. Who restocks the grotto's surfaces?


Posted by: Abe "Marriott" Lincoln | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:53 PM
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Who restocks the grotto's surfaces?

Catfish.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 7:57 PM
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I'm the weirdly evasive president from 219, who doesn't check back here often enough, and who isn't entirely sure what he meant by "sort of having" except maybe to imply that it's somewhat intermittent.

EDGuy seems to have a much better attitude about these sorts of things than I do. Obviously.


Posted by: Carter? I guess? | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:05 PM
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Carp, and Emerson's there tomorrow.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:09 PM
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OT again: Dudes, my placement officer just mildly chastised me for announcing my acceptance of an offer on FB. Did I do something wrong? Last time I accepted a job, I waited until the contract was signed, received, and acknowledged before announcing and everyone said I was way too careful. They've already announced it to their department and I've responded to several congratulations emails. Am I an asshole?


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:25 PM
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What's a "placement officer"?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:33 PM
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408: "ma'am"


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:34 PM
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407.last. Not as far as I can tell.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:35 PM
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It's a faculty member at my grad school whose job is to help us through the process and monitor everyone's progress, make sure that if someone asks our school to send them someone who does X that a really good X person applies, organizes mock interviews, etc. I didn't use the person who did it last year, but this year, this person really helped me talk through some issues, got me a good interview, etc. He isn't on FB, however, which makes me think he doesn't realize how one might use it to communicate meaningful with people in one's field and one's loved ones, for example. Apparently I was ratted out by my grad school's department assistant, who hates me.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:38 PM
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407: Maybe you're supposed to remain circumspect in the public arena.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:39 PM
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It's not public.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:41 PM
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Huh. I guess I wouldn't worry about it?

I haven't decided when or if I should FB-announce my decision.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:45 PM
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I don't know what the prevailing etiquette for these things is. Apparently it was public enough, though, that the placement officer heard about it in fairly short order. Other people here know more about whether the placement officer is wrong or right to give you grief, according to whatever the etiquette is.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:51 PM
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Knowing nothing at all about the academic world, I'd guess that the person chastising you saw the recent news story about the young journalism grad who was fired before his first day of work, because he whimsically decided to announce his own hire through a mock press release posted to his personal blog (or maybe Tumblr, I can't remember). Tal about an overreaction.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 8:58 PM
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The thing I just thought of is that it would not be wise to announce it because they haven't sent rejection letters out yet. I've hidden it just in case that might be a concern for someone. I only share updates with friends, but those friends include a ton of faculty and grad students in my field.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:07 PM
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I mean, I can't see how it's my responsibility to protect others from finding out that I've been offered and accepted a job, or what the appropriate amount of time one is supposed to wait is, but none of my rather conservative colleagues today told me to take it down. They just came by and hugged me.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:09 PM
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418: Any of them tell you to have the office at your new job checked for ghosts?

Congratulations, BTW.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:23 PM
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I could see some argument for being circumspect, because you could still accept other jobs starting after a year. And people knowing you were "off the market" might make them not realize that you're available after a year. But I wouldn't worry about it.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:29 PM
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Congratulations!!!

You should defriend your grad school department assistant.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:30 PM
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Indeed, congratulations, to AWB and essear both.

I do generally vote for modesty and circumspection in these matters, but that may just be me. I don't necessarily understand the Facebooking ways.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 9:35 PM
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You should defriend your grad school department assistant.

Totes.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 04-25-12 10:17 PM
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432.2 is exactly correct.

It's the job-offerer's responsibility to tell you if they need discretion or if they want you to wait for a public announcement. If they just said "we are planning to send out an announcement" but didn't say "please wait until we do before announcing it widely" then it's on them.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 12:10 AM
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Dammit, 423.2.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 12:13 AM
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Congratulations, bad decision-makers!*

*I'm not in the "go with the safe choice" camp, myself.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 1:24 AM
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Or, in ajay's case, sitting quietly absorbed in a book. Ajay is terrible at looking like he's trying to find strangers in a bar.

Sitting reading a book is all you need to do to meet strangers in a bar in my home country. It demonstrates your desirability on grounds of a) literacy b) disposable income and c) current sobriety. Tick those three boxes and you're in the top 5%, laydeez lassiez.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 3:28 AM
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Ajay is entirely correct provided he arrived first.

Also the book was about Shackleton. In all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world it had to be him or me.


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 3:55 AM
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I haven't decided when or if I should FB-announce my decision.

You could just nonchalantly add it to the employment section on your profile.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 4:03 AM
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As a divorced mom, I endorse 379 and also sympathize with Abe. Tough spot to be in, for sure. I would add (and no, Will did not put me up to this) that before deciding to stay together based on the custody arrangements you are afraid a divorce will bring, it can't hurt to consult a family lawyer who can tell you what is realistic to expect.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 5:00 AM
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Which book about Shackleton is what I forgot to ask at the time.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 5:51 AM
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they haven't sent rejection letters out yet

Congratulations!

Given how long rejections can take (and that lots of places don't even bother - even for those they have had in for visits), I think you have no obligation to hide your news. And I think FB announcements are entirely appropriate for good job news and impending moves. A friend of mine just announced a great postdoc she won in the town where here husband (and baby daddy) started his TT gig last year. I was thrilled to find out and happy to go congratulate her as were a bazillion other friends.


Posted by: simulated annealing | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 6:10 AM
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I don't understand why the placement officer presumes to speak for Wolf University about how they want things announced or not announced. Did WU complain to your PO?

Have I misunderstood where the PO works?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 6:13 AM
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407
OT again: Dudes, my placement officer just mildly chastised me for announcing my acceptance of an offer on FB. Did I do something wrong?

If he's mildly chastising you for something he's not familiar with, then mildly ignore it. I mean, be polite about ignoring it, and I can imagine an argument for letting people at your current job know in person rather than through FB, but this sounds more confusing than worrying.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 6:25 AM
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Kids are smart. They know what is going on.

Staying together unhappily is crazy.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 6:56 AM
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Congratulations #n to AWB and essear. To 423: my guess would be that she's not friends with the admin herself, but with the department (or such), and so the admin can see her profile from an official dept account. If that's not true, though, of course she should defriend her!


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 6:58 AM
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419: Actually, while I was there, there was an AMAZING lecture about bourgeois white lady spiritualism, which everyone was dissecting from a decidedly exterior position. I felt right at home. "Native American exorcist," they assured me, is most definitely racist.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 7:31 AM
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438

429 sounds like a good idea, once everything is officially official.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 7:34 AM
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439

435: I dunno about staying together for the kids. My parents did (I'm fairly sure, this is one of the many topics we don't talk openly about), and while I'm sure they were significantly worse off, I think we might have been better off. Netting it all out, as an outsider, I would have advised them either to get divorced 25 years before they eventually split, or preferably to run screaming in opposite directions when they met each other. Kids do manage just fine with divorced parents.

From our point of view as the kids, though, it was stabler, and we saw more of both of them -- I think it's possible that we were happier with them together. This is contingent on the bad marriage being quietly bad, rather than seriously high conflict, of course. And even if we were a little happier, I'm pretty sure that the difference wasn't enough to be worth it. (And of course there's the modeling bad relationships thing; not sure how that plays out.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 7:40 AM
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440

There's always the possibility that parents in a bad relationship could split, find new partners, and expose the kids to two bad marriages instead of just one.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 7:44 AM
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441

That'd be three bad marriages.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 7:47 AM
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442

I have a theory that only concurrent marriages count for this.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 7:51 AM
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443

I wonder if the rage issue Lincoln mentioned might be a symptom of the badness of the marriage, and would be mitigated by separation. It's a rough spot to be in sucking up horribleness and would be good to GTFO if it could be done without serious harm to the kid.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 7:53 AM
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444

Mmm -- it can be confusing to figure out whether someone is a scarily bad parent, or just a scarily bad spouse. I'm sure Lincoln's thought about this, but yeah, it does seem possible that Mary Todd would be much saner and a better parent if she were also out of the bad marriage.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 7:57 AM
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445

I didn't do badly enough on the face recognition test that I could ever claim to have as bad a problem with it as it feels like I have but the night of that meetup there was someone who I thought looked exactly like ajay on my A train and I kept looking at him like "did I just meet you a few hours ago?" only I couldn't imagine why ajay would be headed to my neighborhood unless reading about Shackleton had inspired him to explore geographical extremes.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:02 AM
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446

AJAY IS EVERYWHERE.


Posted by: BRITISH UNFOGGED MOJO NIXON | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:04 AM
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447

was stabler, and we saw more of both of them

Courts are moving more and more toward 50/50 custody for this reason.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:15 AM
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I think issues surrounding divorce and children are really hard for people not to map their own experiences on to. As Apo would say, no one has any idea what's going on inside someone else's marriage. Custody is a huge huge mess, and it doesn't seem that implausible that there are types of bad marriages that aren't as bad as dealing with custody messes. People's decisions are based on their own situations and not judgements on other people's decisions in other situations.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:20 AM
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Also, there are probably personality types that are better at dealing with one type of situation than the other.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:22 AM
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Well, often, people's decisions are based on what their friends and family tell them will happen.

That is why it is important to talk with a professional.

People think they know what is going to happen bc some friend gave them legal advice based on the friend's situation.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:24 AM
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451

That is why it is important to talk with a professional.

People are always telling me to get a professional, but I maintain that duct tape works just fine.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:26 AM
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451: the wound should close up on its own in a month or two anyhow.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:30 AM
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453

On the plus side, I didn't need to report polydactylism in the other thread.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:42 AM
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Which book about Shackleton is what I forgot to ask at the time.

"South". Both about and by Shackleton.

445: "We took the A train, we knew we took it; things have come out against us, and therefore we have no cause for complaint, but bow to the will of Providence, determined still to do our best to the last."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:57 AM
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455

For God's sake look after our return tickets.


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:09 AM
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Ah, thanks, my impression was that it was by Shackleton. Now the only question remaining is which reading list is it to go on?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:10 AM
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"Great God! this is an awful place and terrible enough for us to have laboured to it without the reward of priority. Well, it is something to have got here."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:20 AM
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Well, it is something to have got here

Rockaway Beach?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:24 AM
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You should read it alongside a short story by Orson Scott Card, an LP by Cold Chisels, and a novel by Celine.


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:25 AM
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"And so farewell, dear Queens -- we won't meet again."


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:26 AM
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(I've certainly told this before, but) at a party I was introduced to a woman (classicist!) who had apparently just made a film about Shackleton. I told her, Oh! How interesting! I don't really know that much about him, but you know how sometimes books will come out and, though you know you'll never actually *read* the book, you read all of the reviews *of* that book? Yeah, well, that's what I did with this book that came out about Shackleton a while ago. You've read it, I guess?

"I wrote it."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:39 AM
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"Great. Can I have a copy?"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:52 AM
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The only possible response to that is to don a false beard and woolly hat and riposte "I am Ernest Shackleton. You know nothing of my work."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:54 AM
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Well, often, people's decisions are based on what their friends and family tell them will happen.

This. I stayed married longer than I should have out of fear that UNG could take Rory away from me because he declared himself the "primary parent" based on my being employed full-time for almost the entirety or Rory's life and him being not-so-much employed for most of it. Turns out this was a really ridiculous threat/fear. But you can see where one might worry about ceding custody of her beloved child to a man prone to fits of rage-driven nudity.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:18 AM
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Either that or blurt out "by all accounts it was shite" and then proceed to throw up all over her but it doesn't sound like that kind of party.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:18 AM
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a man prone to fits of rage-driven nudity

Wait. What?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:25 AM
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467

But you can see where one might worry about ceding custody of her beloved child to a man prone to fits of rage-driven nudity.

But for this being about you, this is my favorite thing that I have read this week.



Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:32 AM
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466: RTFA? Actually I think it was only in TFA of my now long-since-defunct-and-deleted blog. And probably somewhere on Standpipe's.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:49 AM
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I think all you ever said about it here was to refer to him as Ugly Naked Guy.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:50 AM
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467: "But for" s/b "Because of." It's funny shit, especially at this point.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:51 AM
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I didn't know what UNG stood for until now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:54 AM
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He stands for the right to rage nakedly, apparently.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:54 AM
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473

I thought it was just a Friends thing.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:55 AM
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474

Man. Now I sort of feel like I should retell the story.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:58 AM
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475

Or, rather, that someone who is funny should.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:59 AM
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I'm often nude, and I occasionally feel rage. I may even have raged while nude. But I feel quite certain that I have never been driven to nudity by rage.

Maybe if my underwear was really chafing.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:07 AM
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Let's tell the story. "I'm so mad that my pants are coming off!"


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:08 AM
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478

Oh, go on, we could use a laugh.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:08 AM
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479

Man. Now I sort of feel like I should retell the story.

I'm all ears. Naked ears.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:09 AM
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480

Obviously, Bruce Banner might get naked when he rages otherwise he'd never be able to afford clothes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:12 AM
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480: "You wouldn't like me when I'm naked."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:17 AM
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482

I understand why turning into the Hulk rips his pants, but what turns them purple?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:17 AM
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483

The clear pants are too tight for the Hulkmember.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:19 AM
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484

I didn't know what UNG stood for until now.

Uracil N-glycosylase.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:21 AM
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but what turns them purple?

Withholding sex until somebody kisses him.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:22 AM
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484: I thought quoting Tolkien was banned.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:23 AM
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I just thought he walked around naked a lot (which is fine) and sometimes became rageful, and also didn't look so great naked, especially when purple-faced with rage.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:25 AM
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So, once upon a time I was a married woman, a petition for dissolution then pending. One night, with my sweet little girl tucked into her bed, I settled in to my own for much deserved rest. Suddenly, I hear the sound of the shower down the hall followed by rock and roll music at an unseemly volume. I knock at the bathroom door. No response. I knock again, "Hey, can you turn that down a bit?" Some mumbled response that I take to be agreeable, so I head back to bed. A minute or so later, the volume not only fails to decrease but instead shoots up, blaring. I just want to sleep. (You wouldn't like me when I'm sleep deprived...) I knock at the door again. Nothing. So I open the door just enough to grab the cellphone off the sink, shut it off, and throw it on his bed in the room across the hall.

A few minutes later, the shower stops. A few more minutes after that, the soon-to-be-ex strides into my room bare-ass naked ready to rumble about me touching his phone without permission. I am quite certain he thought standing there without a stitch of clothing was intimidating or maybe would flaunt what I just did not get to have anymore. And though I was intimidated more often than not, the sight of his naked, utterly unappealing body in my doorway mostly just made me want to giggle. But I didn't.

And then I lived relatively happily ever after.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:32 AM
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That was less funny than I'd hoped. I was hoping that he deliberately disrobed when he got mad, which would be awesome.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:34 AM
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Yeah, I feel like I told it funnier at the time.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:36 AM
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It is the source of his pseud, though. Because my reaction was, wow, this guy is kind of hideous.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:38 AM
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That's still sort of strange. I mean, he must have had a towel handy.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:45 AM
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He had taken the time to dry off after showering but before dropping by to visit my room, so, yeah, he had a towel handy. Which suggests it was a considered choice. Which amused me, anyway.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:48 AM
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Maybe the towel was too floral for rage.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:55 AM
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"You don't rage at me wearing flowers, anymore."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 12:12 PM
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435

Staying together unhappily is crazy.

Maybe but sometimes it is best for the kids.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 8:46 PM
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496, defend yourself against 379 and 439.

And 488 while you're at it. Not comment 488 so much as the combatant described within.

Does anyone know anyone who wished their parents had stuck it out? I mean, I can see scorched-earth divorces that would be less preferable than stifled husks of parents sleepwalking into senescence. But that's a mark against scorched-earth divorces.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:09 PM
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497

Does anyone know anyone who wished their parents had stuck it out? ...

You miss LB in 439:

I dunno about staying together for the kids. My parents did (I'm fairly sure, this is one of the many topics we don't talk openly about), and while I'm sure they were significantly worse off, I think we might have been better off. ...


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:46 PM
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I think my parents would have been better off getting divorced. I have no idea whether we kids would have been better off, but probably so if there'd been a conscientious, relatively amicable break up. (Which, you know, should have come with a pony as well.)


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:48 PM
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497: I stuck it out for some years so the kids could finish their schooling and not feel pressure to take care of their mother. I hated every minute of it but it added, in my mind at least, a few points to the other side of the lying & cheating column.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 9:50 PM
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My misread of 439 resulted in misplaced belligerence in 497.1. 379, battle 439! You can do it, you have not been eating potatoes.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:30 PM
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As the happily second-married son of a happily second-married father, I'm strongly pro-divorce.

My folks' divorce was fractious, but not catastrophic. I got the attic in my dad's new house, and he took me down to Army surplus to buy a parachute to cover the exposed insulation. When the streetlight lit up the room through the parachute, immediate virginitybane.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 10:33 PM
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502: I don't have a general objection to divorce. I do to the lying and other bullshit that so many people, myself included, rationalize to excuse being a coward and hiding from the anticipated emotional storms. That's the part that I regret and not who I want to see in the mirror.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:02 PM
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the parachute, immediate virginitybane

Rather unfair to blame the parachute. Couldn't your kissing be to blame?


Posted by: simulated annealing | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:11 PM
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505

When you go naked in your own home,
Rage, rage against the moving of your phone.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:25 PM
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506

Wouldn't a virginitybane be, according to the usual valuation of these things, good?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-26-12 11:35 PM
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I believe that was k-sky's point. Parents' divorce -> attic bedroom -> parachute -> virginitybane -> profit!


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 3:42 AM
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Does anyone know anyone who wished their parents had stuck it out?

Ugh, no, and mine did. Still do. They talk about how happy their marriage is, but they have nothing in common and, in speaking to each of them alone, one gets the sense that they have no understanding of what the other thinks the relationship is about. They can't understand why I have no desire to enter a long-term relationship, since I have this example of a happy and long-lasting marriage right in front of me, and I think, Jesus Christ, if I spent 37 years convincing myself that I really really like someone whose every concrete quality drives me insane, I'd lose it.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 4:19 AM
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I didn't know the origin story of UNG's pseud. That's fantastic, Di.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 5:20 AM
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510

"Virginitybane" suggests that the first time was during or after LARPing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 5:22 AM
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one gets the sense that they have no understanding of what the other thinks the relationship is about.

As near as I can tell, that's a necessary but not sufficient condition for any successful human interaction.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 5:29 AM
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511: Define "successful."

Or, to the extent 511 is true, I'm with AWB in not seeing the incentive to enter into a long-term relationship.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 5:54 AM
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513

Define "successful."

Nobody calls the cops, no violence, and nobody asks about "feelings".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 5:59 AM
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508: The flip side is that 37 years with someone I was convinced really, really liked me seems pretty nice.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 6:19 AM
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I also didn't know the full story behind UNG's name. That's hilarious.

Heather Havrileski, in a review of the Starz show Sparticus had a great description of a scene where one of the senior gladiators berates our hero while naked. Havrileski said his penis was bobbing along like a side-kick, saying "Yeah, what he said! You tell 'em!"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 6:40 AM
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516

Now *that* is hilarious.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 6:46 AM
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511. Including childrearing?


Posted by: Abe Lincoln | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 6:52 AM
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518

Maybe you should understand what your kids think (you've been there before), but they shouldn't (can't in the early years) understand what you think.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 6:56 AM
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The really tough thing about divorce/separation with kids is that you have to maintain two households which can do a number on economic stability. But, I have no experience of divorce from inside a marriage, so I don't presume to judge.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 7:05 AM
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520

Inside of a marriage it's too dark to judge.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 7:10 AM
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521

519 makes a good point.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 7:21 AM
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522

507 is correct. If my parents were still married, I would still be a virgin.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 7:57 AM
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523

Hmm. My parents stayed together, and my lack of success with the opposite sex borders on legendary. Rory, on the other hand, seems to be developing into quite the little heartbreaker. You're welcome, Rory.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 8:13 AM
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My parents stayed together, and my lack of success with the opposite sex borders on legendary.
Yeah, I don't think this follows . My parents had an extremely strong and happy marriage, to an extent that people in other happily married couples of their own age even remarked on it.
My own love life, after the end of a LTR about ten years ago, went from a few years of brief episodes to non-existent.
I'm still not sorry that I turned down the friend who asked me out (since married & with a small child). It's not just that I wasn't at all physically attracted but he has certain personality traits which would irritate the hell out of me if I were in his company for extended periods of time.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 04-27-12 10:12 AM
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