Re: Guest Post - Sifu Tweety

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tl;dr


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:08 AM
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I kept my knees way, way bent, and barely lifted my feet, adopting this profoundly stupid looking duck walk-ish gait

In order for us to properly evaluate your claims, we'll need to see some video evidence. Preferably with "Yakety Sax" as the soundtrack.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:09 AM
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I can probably arrange that later.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:10 AM
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I really don't understand how the gait you are talking about is supposed to work*, but I'm all ear for any way to avoid excruciating pain in the achilles tendon.

*Assuming an upright posture, doesn't bending your knees a bunch pretty much require lifting your foot a great deal?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:17 AM
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Do you have some sort of newsletter to which I could subscribe?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:17 AM
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4: picture the fake going-down-the-stairs trick...


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:20 AM
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The Complete Beginner's Guide to Barefoot Running

The Barefoot Running Form

Some notes on form:

Land on your forefeet or midfeet (balls of your feet) instead of your heels. Too much on your forefeet can make your calves sore. If you feel yourself landing on your heels, shorten your stride.

Strides should be short -- don't extend your legs as far as you do with shoes. It should feel almost like you're running in place.

Keep upright and balanced. Keep your feet under your hips and shoulders.

Stay light. You should feel like you're light on your feet, not pounding at all. Barefoot runners tend to be a little more springy in their step.

Run quietly. If you are making a lot of noise with your steps (as shoe-wearing runners do), you're pounding too hard. Try to run softly, quietly, like an animal.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:23 AM
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Waiting at right now at the orthopedist's office for advice on running without injuring my knees!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:25 AM
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The barefoot gait I've adopted is something like a mix of the motions used during cross country skiing and bicycling. With a hint of Groucho Marx.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:26 AM
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Strides should be short -- don't extend your legs as far as you do with shoes. It should feel almost like you're running in place.
I think this isn't true. You don't extend them as far forward, but you backstroke should be longer.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:27 AM
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7 was helpful. 6 was just more confusing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:28 AM
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Like LB, I've also changed the way I walk, being more on my toes. I tell my self it's panther-like, but it's probably closer to mincing.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:28 AM
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Try to run softly, quietly, like an animal.

Dr. Venture: Why are you naked?

Brock: To prey on their fear. Move like an animal to feel the kill.


Posted by: OPINIONATED BROCK SAMSON | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:30 AM
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I wouldn't really describe it as more on my toes, so much as less on my heels -- I'm actually coming down sort of level between the balls of my feet and my heels, so what hits first is actually the outside edge of my foot at my instep.

I do find that my my feet are sorer the day after running than they were in running shoes. It's not injured-feeling sore, but it is tired-muscle-feeling, as if I were really working out my foot muscles.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:32 AM
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And the 'light on my feet' and 'like an animal' describes how it feels very well (god only knows how the gait looks, probably ludicrous). It feels as if I'm padding along on soft paws, rather than thumping on each step.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:33 AM
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When I was looking in to this, I found it difficult to find videos of native barefoot runners. There were lots of people who had recently adopted the stride, and to my eye they looked awkward, as if they were running, well, barefoot on a painful surface.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:36 AM
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it took me a good two months to really get a comfortable stride, when i switched to 5-fingers. during those two months, i slowly figured out a stride i could maintain, though at first only with great concentration. then i slowly added distance. and, eventually, i got to a point where i could do the stride without having to think about every single motion of each foot and leg.

and, yeah, there were a lot of little muscle issues during those first few weeks.

but i've been at it for three years now. feels completely natural.


Posted by: cleek | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:39 AM
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I have a friend who is a sports medicine specialist, and qualified as a coach in multiple sports. He swears that the vast majority of people who think they are running on the front of their feet, aren't. That if you slow down their motion and analyse it on video, they aren't doing what the experience of doing it makes them think they are doing. IYSWIM.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:40 AM
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Land on your forefeet or midfeet (balls of your feet) instead of your heels. Too much on your forefeet can make your calves sore. If you feel yourself landing on your heels, shorten your stride.

This advice confused the hell out of me at first; I adopted a stride where I was landing hard on my forefoot and my heels were barely touching the ground. The stride I use now feels much more natural; my heels touch the ground first, they just touch the ground very gently, and don't end up bearing much of my weight.

*Assuming an upright posture, doesn't bending your knees a bunch pretty much require lifting your foot a great deal?

Both of my knees are bent pretty much all the time. My back is straight, but canted slightly forwards, and my knees are bent. It is a bit like tiptoeing, or maybe like the moving version of standing in a (narrow) horse stance, if you know what that is.

My feet hurt when I was trying to force it, but really don't hurt at all now. My knee and ankle hurt a little bit, but running doesn't seem to make them worse -- maybe the opposite.

I also run way, way more slowly than I used to, I think.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:41 AM
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16: or you could watch the pro marathoners who run barefoot...


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:44 AM
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'Strides should be short', 'It should feel almost like you're running in place', and 'Barefoot runners tend to be a little more springy in their step' all might be good advice for beginners but they don't seem like they describe the ideal. It's hard to imagine winning a marathon bouncing up and down in place.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:47 AM
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I also run way, way more slowly than I used to, I think.

I think that my attempt to run faster is what got me my current painful tendon. I ran all out for a mile, which I had not done before in years, and it has never been the same since.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:47 AM
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This is a whole lot of people in Mumbai running a half-marathon barefoot.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:49 AM
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The barefoot gait I've adopted is something like a mix of the motions used during cross country skiing and bicycling.

for me it feels a bit like 'spinning' in cycling: relatively high RPM, low impact, quick turnover. i also try to have as little vertical motion as possible, so that i'm not jumping into the next stride. keep it light, quick, soft.


Posted by: cleek | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:51 AM
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I think of it via martial arts metaphors; it's like silent ninja running. But yeah, I don't lift my feet up much at all. I also try to keep my legs as relaxed as possible, and focus on my core.

One thing that I've found really interesting is that I naturally adjust my gait for different surfaces; when I'm running on concrete my knees are more bent and my gait is softer, whereas when I get on to dirt I can kind of open up a little bit more.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:54 AM
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Not to be pointlessly argumentative, but why can't I just change my running stride to something a little gentler and keep wearing shoes like a sane person?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:56 AM
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18 is probably right, that describing what it feels like doesn't accurately describe what I'm actually doing. That said, I'd agree with both 'springy' and 'as little vertical motion as possible' -- that my feet are bouncing off the ground with each short step, but that the steps are short and frequent enough that my body isn't bouncing up and down much. Not that I can balance a book on my head ever, but it feels as if it would be more practical running barefoot than in shoes.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:57 AM
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Not to be pointlessly argumentative
You must be new here.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:58 AM
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26: I think you could, the barefoot shoes just make it easier. I didn't change my gait deliberately, I started running differently because thumping down on my heels felt wrong without padding. If I run in shoes, I snap right back to normal because it feels okay when I have the cushioning. But if you have the self control to deliberately modify your gait, you could do it in shoes.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 9:59 AM
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I'm getting into barefoot driving, so that I can exercise on my commute to work.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:00 AM
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26: I've tried to manage this same stride in shoes with heels and couldn't do it; the padding on the heel hits before I mean it to, and so I end up heel-striking. If I try to shift my gait forward a little bit then I end up hitting harder than I mean to on the midfoot/forefoot. Also I think the sense of the hardness of the surface would go away.

That said, it's entirely possible that somebody more competent than me could manage it, and I am just not understanding how because see previous.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:01 AM
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I had been running in very light shoes and I couldn't hit eight miles, mostly because of foot pain but also calf pain. Then I went to an actual shoe store and bought a big ole set of NBs with what the guy called "pronation control" and ran two ten mile runs and one half marathon in them. I had less pain than I did previously on the shorter runs.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:07 AM
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20, 23: I was looking for high quality slow motion videos.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:14 AM
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Run quietly. If you are making a lot of noise with your steps (as shoe-wearing runners do), you're pounding too hard. Try to run softly, quietly, like an animal.

In TKD we were forbidden to make any noise while running. And we were barefoot. I don't know if I achieved the same stride, but I do notice that other people do a lot more thudding on my wood floor.



Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:16 AM
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This seems to be the best place to link to this.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:19 AM
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What was that?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:20 AM
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Looks like someone imitating that incredibly irritating QWOP game.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:25 AM
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Stormcrow gave me advice (to get I think NB Minimus shoes?) which I ignored,

Hmm. Not something I am familiar with. I suspect you mean Eggplant* pwning Halford in a thread last fall. You'd probably like to ignore some advice of mine.

*Although I see Eggplant is not claiming ownership.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:29 AM
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LB gets it right. You can see someone desperately pounding away at their keyboard in the background. I think JP linked to that game here once.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:29 AM
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7 sounds pretty close to pose running, which is a Crossfit thing. And the OP also sounds kind of close to pose running, maybe? I can't tell.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:30 AM
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32: I went to a real running store and got nice big Asics with fat heels (but no pronation control, as apparently I don't need that) fairly early on after starting. They worked pretty well for a while but then I probably overdid it preparing for a five mile race and ended up with so much knee pain I could barely walk up stairs, which is what caused me to knock it off for the aforementioned year or so. I've tried those shoes again since and my knee starts hurting again pretty much immediately.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:31 AM
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38: I knew the truth would out, by which I mean you would do the google search for me.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:32 AM
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I've been wearing my Nike Frees while skateboarding, and the result is that my pushing leg hurts like the dickens. I'm thinking the next shoes I buy will have some big-ass padding.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:33 AM
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41: I never really had knee pain, except immediately after a very long run, and have trouble going down stairs, not up them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:34 AM
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38: I suppose I can believe you on this one. Don't even try to recommend shoes, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:35 AM
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Actually maybe the OP sounds like the opposite of pose running. I can't tell. Anyhow, don't strike your heel first!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:35 AM
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I have a pair of NB's for my super-narrow-and-almost-flat feet. Shoes that don't account for those two unfortunate facts invariably end up causing me enormous amounts of pain.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:39 AM
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39: I think JP linked to that game here once.

Yes, as I recall I was hating everyone and everything at the time and thought I should share the wealth. Not finding it in the archives though (Tom Scudder linked it in May, 2011 but I didn't remember that).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:48 AM
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Incidentally, my weirdo injury of last August, diagnosed as a ruptured disc by the urgent care doctor, re-diagnosed as "well, who the fuck knows without an MRI and why bother with an MRI" by my beloved GP, is most likely what was re-re-diagnosed over email by a non-lurker as, "You know maybe you just popped your sacro-iliac joint out of whack?" I had a whole lot of "pelvic girdle pain" on the same (right) side when I was pregnant and the tendons are likely fucked up. In any event, I've been avoiding running because I was sure it would aggravate the hell out of it and leave me bedridden. Last week, however, I decided to see what would happen anyway, and whaddayaknow, it actually feels better.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:54 AM
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49: none of this would have happened if the greeks' ideas about iliac crest anatomy had been more widely adopted.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:57 AM
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NMM to Lonesome George.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 11:04 AM
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OH I guess that happened a while ago. Well, stop M generally.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 11:05 AM
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He would've wanted us to take our time stopping.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 11:07 AM
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Halford, try these instead: NMM to Kitty Wells or Stephen Covey.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 11:39 AM
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Donald J. Sobol solves final mystery.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 11:43 AM
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Now that is sad.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 11:47 AM
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A DFH alum.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 11:49 AM
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I had forgotten that!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 11:58 AM
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Are you calling Donald Sobol a hippy? Or are you saying something else?


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 12:06 PM
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Indirectly identifying his college.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 12:14 PM
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Is Kraab a DFH alum too? Did not know.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 12:28 PM
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Yes. I think she actually studied there.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 12:30 PM
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I think she actually studied there.

I laughed.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 12:35 PM
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Sacroiliac joint

I think that might be what's popping when I "crack my hips," which feels really good.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 12:44 PM
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Sacroiliac joint

when i turned 40, my right side S.J. started hurting after running up steep hills. so, no more steep hills.


Posted by: cleek | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 12:51 PM
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so, no more steep hills.

The people who lived on the hill complained, but I was the one with fucking bulldozer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 12:53 PM
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If you're going to talk about running, people, you have to post your distances with times. Either that or switch the last two post titles.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:05 PM
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I spent this morning running 100m intervals with Newt, but didn't time ourselves. I have no idea what a good time for 100m is, but whatever it is, double it, and that's probably me at a dead sprint. Still faster than Newt, mostly, but that's not going to last.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:08 PM
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That 5k I was talking about was 34 and change. But it was over 95, so I say it didn't count.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:08 PM
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I always ran/jogged* with something like the shuffle Tweety describes (probably not as much knee bend, though). And back in the day I did like literally running barefoot if I had a place that I could do so (such as the perimeter of the athletic fields at my college). It did seem to suit my shuffle stride. Maybe that's the ticket for enhanced torso length model humans.

*Frustrated the hell out of my cross country-running roommate:
Him: "Pick up your feet, you'll go faster!"
Me: "I don't care!."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:10 PM
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I avoid superfluous running if I can, but I do occasionally enjoy running like a samurai.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:11 PM
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I think I'm still slightly slower running than I am walking. It's certainly more tiring to run. At least I don't seem to be hurting my knees this time (4mm drop shoes, avoiding concrete stairs.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:12 PM
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67: oh I am so slow. When I did that five miler, I was slightly better than 10 minutes per mile. I'm a lot slower than that now.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:12 PM
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I ran my half marathon with 11 minute miles and I can get a bit under ten minute miles in 5Ks.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:13 PM
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I'm so fast, I can turn off the lights and be under the covers before the bedroom is dark.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:19 PM
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I have a time-delay light switch that gives me ten seconds.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:19 PM
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I am (or was) a moderately good sprinter, and certainly faster than my roommate which I think is partly what frustrated him about my unwillingness to pick up my feet and actually run for more than a few hundred yards at a time.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:21 PM
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The Commentariat: only our talk is fast.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:21 PM
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Anyhow, being fast is very definitely not my goal. My goal is to be able to continue running as close to indefinitely as possible, as it turns out to be exactly the right combination of "easy to arrange" and "not annoying" to keep me at it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:28 PM
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That's always been my goal in the past -- off and on, over the last couple of years I've started to wonder whether I could get fastish if I tried, which is what I'm vaguely trying to do running with Newt now.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:35 PM
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Many years ago, I ran a 5k in about 26 minutes. I'd like to be able to do it again.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:36 PM
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Yeah, eight minute miles don't sound that unlikely, do they? A year or so ago, I got to where I could run an 8:30 mile on a treadmill, but (a) treadmill, and (b) I could only run one.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:40 PM
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A few weeks ago, I did an 8:10 minute mile on a track, but I haven't been able to run without pain since.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:41 PM
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A year or so ago, I got to where I could run an 8:30 mile on a treadmill, but (a) treadmill, and (b) I could only run one.

I can do 5K on a treadmill at 9:30 pace, no problem. Lately I've been trying to get that down to 9:00, but that hasn't been going so well. OTOH, I'm probably in the top third, speed-wise, in my soccer league. (But that third encompasses quite a range.)


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:51 PM
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Running fast is tough when you take it up as an adult. Sprints will help, if you don't hurt yourself. I think that there must be something like the same nervous system adaptation you get with heavy lifting.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:51 PM
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Maybe I should run fast while carrying heavy things.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 1:54 PM
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86: nothing could possibly go wrong.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:03 PM
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We did a mile on Monday -- I got 6:36, which I was very proud of (but which still left me smoked by most of the class). During my brief period distance running regularly, years before I started CF, a 9 minute mile was a big challenge.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:07 PM
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Dude. That's distinctly fast.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:09 PM
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Yeah, when I say I've been trying to get to 9:00, I should really say "I've tried just running a 9:00 pace". I haven't actually made any directed effort. I'm thinking it's time to change that. (And yes, Halford, I'm planning on checking out a Crossfit affiliate.)


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:10 PM
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My distance running skills could probably be improved a lot, though. I'm signed up for a half marathon in October and we will see what happens.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:27 PM
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I thought about why I've taken up running again, and some of it is a grass-fire scare. Yeah, I'm not going to be running fast enough, especially given the pessimal shoes, clothing, and terrain. (I'm told the strategy is usually to start your *own* fire and move downwind into it, hoping that the burned patch is big enough to survive in when the original fire catches up.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:29 PM
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Fighting fire with fire, as it were.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:32 PM
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87 to 92.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:33 PM
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92: You don't have to outrun the fire. You just need to outrun the slowest person in your group.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:34 PM
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I have no idea what my times are, but I make no claims of speed, endurance, or grace.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:34 PM
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91: Good luck. My advice is have somebody running with you. That was pretty much key for me to make it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:35 PM
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thanks, Eggplant.

The upside is when people ask me for a light and I hand them a pocket flint and steel.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:37 PM
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When you're on fire and running down the street, people will get out of your way. Except for one old drunk, going, (pantomiming holding a cigarette) 'Hey, buddy? Can I get a light?'


Posted by: Richard Pryor | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:47 PM
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92: It must work. It's in the standard text.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 2:58 PM
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I recommend this plan for everybody who 1. keeps injuring themselves and 2. doesn't mind injuring themselves further in the hopes of 3. injuring themselves less at some future point.

Du scheiterst heute, scheiterst morgen
scheiterst immer besser
Und irgendwann scheiterst du nicht


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:25 PM
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Achilles tendon pain is pretty common with people who start running barefoot or in minimalist shoes, in part because their calf muscles aren't used to the load, and in part because they tend to try to force landing on the forefoot, which means they land with a pointed toe.

I am a lousy runner with poor biomechanics (wayyy too flexible/poor joint stabilization) but with my stability shoes I can handle five mile runs with no problem now. I'd like to be able to wear a lighter shoe, but I'm also not much for messing with something that is working. I'm slow (I would have beat LB by about 30 seconds), but I first ran any kind of distance this year, so baby steps.

I still think that some are born to run, and some are meant to be crafty and heave rocks/shoot arrows at the prey, but II don't hate running these days.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-17-12 10:58 PM
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Why run at all if it ends up causing you so much trouble? There are plenty of other activities around, e.g. biking, hiking, x-country skiing, or swimming which would provide the same benefits.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 07-18-12 2:18 AM
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103: none of those are as easy to accomplish at a fitness-improving level in an hour before work. I love riding my bike, but unless I'm going uphill the whole time an hour of biking does not equal an hour of running. When I have more time and/or am someplace more bucolic I do all variety of interesting exercise-y things.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-18-12 2:48 AM
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103: convenience


Posted by: cleek | Link to this comment | 07-18-12 8:47 AM
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103: you can run outdoors almost anywhere, and it doesn't require getting in a car first.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 07-18-12 12:32 PM
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106: That's why I like it. If I have a few hour, I can have a 45 minute workout and a shower.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-18-12 12:45 PM
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"few" s/b "free".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-18-12 12:49 PM
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