Re: Sam Bacile

1

Over where?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 4:34 AM
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FB


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 4:50 AM
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1: Egypt.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 5:29 AM
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That's pretty epic trolling.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 5:40 AM
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Yeah, the bonus crazy here is that it's an anti-Muslim/anti-semitic double game.

Bacile told the Associated Press that he was a Jewish Israeli real estate developer living in California. He said that he raised $5m for the production of the film from "100 Jewish donors", an unusual claim echoing Protocols of the Elders of Zion-style fantasies.

Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 5:51 AM
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What's weird is that I alone gave him $5 million. Those other 99 kikes are incredibly cheap!


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 6:00 AM
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On a side note, when people say they are real estate developers in California, they're usually lying, right? A guy I went to high school with found me on FB and he keeps posting the most transparent ego-trip things to his wall (Porsche, place at Tahoe). He says he's a real estate developer in California while his brother says he's coked-up.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 6:06 AM
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He says he's a real estate developer in California while his brother says he's coked-up.

I don't believe those two things are mutually exclusive. At least not in the short term.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 6:10 AM
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Let he who isn't coked-up cast the first stone.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 6:28 AM
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6: Always with the reinforcing stereotypes.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 6:45 AM
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5: Plus, with the suggestion from various analysts that the Benghazi attack was a) planned and coordinated, b) possibly an al Qaeda revenge attack masquerading as popular outrage/rioting, it becomes ... some .... multiple ... number of games.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 6:51 AM
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If movies could kill, they probably will
In games without frontiers


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 7:38 AM
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Fucking earworm.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 7:39 AM
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Kinky. And small apparently.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 7:42 AM
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Another example of the symbiotic relationship conservatives have with their foreign counterparts.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 8:59 AM
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How does this thread have only 11 comments? That article is amazing. Basically, long time right-blogosphere stars likePam Geller (whom I know see has been officially designated as an operator of a hate site, thank goodness) helped a bunch of insane Copts to put together a hate film which is now (arguably) getting people killed and (certainly) causing serious damage in the world.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 9:42 AM
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Pam Geller was one of Anders Breivik's influences.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 9:43 AM
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Which of course is mentioned in the piece. Duh.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 9:48 AM
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How does this thread have only 11 comments?
Titties.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 10:25 AM
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This has got to be the most bizarre political story since Romani Prodi's seance. If it somehow has the effect of destroying the Arab Spring and throwing the US election to Romney, it will be a piece of political manipulation for the ages. Bismarck manipulating Napolean III seems trivial in comparison. Don DeLillo is probably already working on his novel about the whole thing.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 12:39 PM
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I wrote this to a friend earlier today, Walt: "It would be divine justice if the Sam Bacile film begins, even indirectly, World War III. It's the perfect corollary to the Defenestration of Prague or the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in our fallen age."


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 12:49 PM
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Assassination of Franz? Maybe. Defenestration of Prague? Not by a long shot. If nobody goes out the window, I don't want to hear about it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 12:52 PM
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The Defenestration of Prague is totally misnamed. There are tons of windows in Prague.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 1:36 PM
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20: Well, it's not a piece of political manipulation for the ages, though. Just a different take on the old Jyllands-Posten scam. (I think Romney tanked any possibility of its helping him when he tried the old "I'm disappointed in my librul opponent for channelling Neville Chamberlain" schtick. He just can't speak that chest-thumping language for The Base convincingly.)


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 2:46 PM
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FWIW One of Poland's biggest pop stars was recently convicted of 'insulting religious feelings' for saying that the authors of the Bible must have been 'fucked up on wine and smoking good weed'. It's a first offense so she's only getting fined c. $2500 but you can in theory be sent to prison for something like that in Poland. Plenty of people in Poland believe that the penalties for this 'crime' should be much tougher.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 4:39 PM
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It apparently was a long planned terrorist attack that used the movie protesters as a cover:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5irzV3mhzHowp-BNTb1QT4-lEHFng?docId=e292f17c57bf4d068c9c633767eb19bd


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 4:55 PM
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That is an amazing article (the Guardian article in the OP, that is). As a piece of manipulation, though: what's their desired outcome? Not political per se -- not electoral politics, anyway, or not US electoral politics, except insofar as the Republican party is more friendly to the Islamophobic message -- but rather a campaign to convince as many people as possible that Muslims are vicious, violent, blah blah blah, in this case by inciting them to violence.

I'm just thinking out loud. It looks like they want to influence policy (regardless of who's in the White House). It's helpful to influence public opinion, toward that end.

I'm not saying anything particularly intelligent here; I think I just have trouble wrapping my head around people who are so convinced of the evil of a very large set of others that they'd go to such great lengths to convince the rest of us of it as well.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-14-12 5:20 PM
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Echoing the above -- this is an amazing 'accomplishment'. But we're really doomed if anyone with Youtube access can start a war.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 2:04 AM
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"The only winning move is not to upload."


Posted by: Opinionated Joshua | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 5:55 AM
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27

I'm not saying anything particularly intelligent here; I think I just have trouble wrapping my head around people who are so convinced of the evil of a very large set of others that they'd go to such great lengths to convince the rest of us of it as well.

This seems strange as it happens all the time. For example Israel has been trying to influence US public opinion against Moslems for a long time.

For a US example look at the Occupy Wall Street propaganda against the rich.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 7:08 AM
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I'm actually with JBS in 30. "An Inconvenient Truth" is trying to influence US public opinion against the evil of carbon emissions and global warming. I happen to agree, but it taps that same core of humanity.

I do find the facts of the Innocence of Muslims case staggering in how unbelievably destructive the motive and effect were.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 7:38 AM
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That's funny, I think JBS' 30 is fucking idiotic, particularly in its comparison of OWS protestors to outrageous racist bigots. Everyone tries to influence others all the time; everyone does not do it with lies, ignorance and venom and in such a manner as is carefully calculated to cause the maximum possible amount of violence on all sides.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 9:05 AM
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(It is sort of nice, however -- that's the wrong word -- to know that the film did not manage of its own account to motivate the attack.)


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 9:08 AM
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32

... carefully calculated ...

I doubt anything about the film was carefully calculated. Not that it matters much, this sort of thing is pretty unpredictable. Sometimes a small
stimulus can produce a large result but usually it doesn't. The film maker likely just got "lucky".


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 10:14 AM
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32 is right. 31 likewise sets up a false equivalence between a film trailer that sets forth the view that roughly 2 billion people in the world are fundamentally evil -- in the spawn of satan sense -- and Al Gore's message in "An Inconvenient Truth" that climate change (an 'externality', if you will) is a danger to us all, each and every one. The comparison is absurd.

Not to mention that the Innocence of Muslims crap essentially portrays Muslims as subhuman, animals. We've been here before. No amount of "But everyone does it!" is allowed in this context, because no, they don't.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 10:16 AM
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35

...No amount of "But everyone does it!" is allowed in this context, because no, they don't.

Not saying everyone does it, just that it happens all the time.

Making your shock at the discovery that it is going on rather like that of Captain Renault.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 10:22 AM
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James, I'll grant you this: a handful of rightwing Christianists have said that gays are responsible for a myriad of things, take your pick: the Holocaust, Hurricane Katrina, various droughts, um, probably 9-11, and I forget what else.

So no, I'm not shocked; I just can't understand that sort of thinking.

James, would you be willing to take back your comparison to Occupy Wall Street, or no?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 10:29 AM
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To be half fair -- and I am being hated on all over the Guardian site for suggesting that this film should be banned -- this is really just the coptic equivalent of jihadi propaganda against the Jews. Not that youtube would leave that up -- nor should it. The trouble is that when the world is one theatre, there's always someone to react when you shout "fire"


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 12:32 PM
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This raises an important question for future historians: are Muslims the easiest people to troll in the history of the world? The only serious competition would be the Unfogged comment section when confronted by Shearer.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 12:41 PM
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The sculptor of "My Sweet Lord" was followed around by bans and death threats IIRC. And he wasn't even trying to troll anybody.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 12:48 PM
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Meh. Walt, I'll stop replying to Shearer when people stop saying that they see his point, which point is usually the most simple-minded form of thinking.

On trolling Muslims, maybe we need to envision the (anti-)Christian equivalent of this film, disseminated appropriately. Would Christians go bananas? Hard to say.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 12:59 PM
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38: The trouble is that when the world is one theatre, there's always someone to react when you shout "fire"

There are some free speech questions at issue here, it seems to me.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 1:01 PM
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when people say they are real estate developers in California, they're usually lying, right?

They are usually liars, even if they happen to be telling the truth about being real estate developers in California.

Lots of people buy a couple of investment flats off-plan and call themselves a "developer".


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 1:08 PM
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On trolling Muslims, maybe we need to envision the (anti-)Christian equivalent of this film, disseminated appropriately.

The musical The Book of Mormon is pretty insulting and Mormon Americans have responded to it like civilized people. True, the insult is "you people are fools" not "you people child-molesting Satan-spawn." But the response has also been light years away from murderous rioting.

The comparison is significant, because Trey Parker and Matt Stone were blocked by Comedy Central from portraying the Prophet on South Park, and mocking Muslim extremists the way they have mocked Mormons. This was the right move, too, because there simply is a small portion of the Muslim world who do not respond to insults in a civilized fashion. (And apparently, another portion that will for political gain, help goad those who hold their honor too dear.)


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 1:20 PM
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44: Well, right, one is not to portray the Prophet at all, much less in vain.

Are there are any comparable rules in Christianity? I suppose we could make a film in which God rapes Mary and chortles over his success, and then we show Jesus having sex with prostitutes, and they lick his feet before and after, oh, and I suppose the apostles could all have gay sex with each other, or if some of them are shepherds, with their sheep. We could segue to contemporary times, and show Catholic priests buggering 9-year-old boys back behind the altar. Bondage might be involved somewhere along the line.

Would that film, produced and disseminated from Iran, result in riots in Kansas? No, probably not, because our continent is not occupied by foreign military troops.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 2:03 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc7rBVUIHUg


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 2:15 PM
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Charley - please give a short explanation of what you're linking to.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 2:22 PM
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There's an episode of South Park where Pope Benedict tells the boys that child molestation is actually a sacrament in the Catholic Church.

The play Corpus Cristi depicts Jesus and the apostles as gay men and has Our Lord and Savior officiate a gay marriage between two of his apostles.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 2:51 PM
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I bet there are porno websites catering to people who fantasize about getting it on with the Lamb of God.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 2:54 PM
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37

James, would you be willing to take back your comparison to Occupy Wall Street, or no?

Why should I? You professed to be shocked that people would produce propaganda against another group and that is what Occupy Wall Street does.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 4:18 PM
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Damn, I thought they sold tents.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 4:19 PM
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45: Christianity went through a very strictly iconoclastic period, but didn't stick with it.

I'm usually not very impressed by comparisons of the Muslim world to the Mormon world. The latter in general has found its way to a safe and prosperous niche in the American mainstream and does not live in the shadow of either poverty, communal conflict or foreign dominance. The same is true of the superficial veneer of civility of much of Christian America*. For much of the Muslim world, things are not like that. The astonishing thing is not that there's a trollable and violent minority of them, but that said minority is as small as it is. The issue of, say, printing cartoons of Muhammad with a bomb in his turban is a wee bit more fraught in an age where there have been mainstream European politicians advocating that Muslim immigrants be put in internment camps.

(* Which nevertheless beneath this veneer has spent decades enthusiastically cheerleading, voting for and investing in an endless wave of appalling and vicious violence against much of the Muslim world, from invasions to drone strikes to "Christian Zionist" support of the Israeli far right, that makes rioting look tame.)


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 4:22 PM
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47 -- A short video clip of Alabamans destroying Beatles records in '65.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 5:04 PM
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Hey Castock, thanks for keeping it cool when I begin to lose my head.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 5:07 PM
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this is really just the coptic equivalent of jihadi propaganda against the Jews. Not that youtube would leave that up -- nor should it

I don't know about the jihadi version, but I've run into straight up old school Nazi style anti-semitic shit on you tube. And one second of googling tells me that Jud Suss is up in its entirety.

and that is what Occupy Wall Street does.

JBS apparently believes there's no difference between the infamous WSJ 'Lucky Duckies' piece and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 5:07 PM
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53: Ah! Thanks.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 5:08 PM
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55

JBS apparently believes there's no difference between the infamous WSJ 'Lucky Duckies' piece and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Saying they are both propaganda is not the same thing as saying that there is no difference between them.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-15-12 6:09 PM
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55: What happens if you report it?

Of course, there is also the question of national jurisdictions. Youtube has apparently removed the Bacile video in Pakistan and another couple of countries; we know that it (caves into censorship|respects the laws) of China -- which we disapprove of -- Germany and France.

I don't think there is any tidy solution possible. But as a Brit, I think the aim of our policy should be to stay neutral in the Middle East, and our gestures should be tailored to that end.

This is kind of out of line with the mainstream Guardian opinion that we ought to be on the side of justice and equity always and everywhere. That appears to have implementation difficulties.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-16-12 5:42 AM
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