I don't mind worms, but ew mushrooms gross.
I'm going to be berried in a hermetically sealed aluminum tube, with all the air evacuated and replaced with a noble gas. Decomposition is for suckers. When MY corpse gets reanimated, Ima be looking GOOD.
Don't be daft. Decomposition makes the pounds just melt away.
I think anaerobic decomposition kind of turns you into liquid person-goo.
Then you have to worry the cats won't wait until you're dead.
I am lobbying to be mummified and squeezed in beside Jeremy Bentham in his auto-icon.
7: I don't think my wishes will be a factor.
WD Hamilton: "I will leave a sum in my last will for my body to be carried to Brazil and to these forests. It will be laid out in a manner secure against the possums and the vultures just as we make our chickens secure; and this great Coprophanaeus beetle will bury me. They will enter, will bury, will live on my flesh; and in the shape of their children and mine, I will escape death. No worm for me nor sordid fly, I will buzz in the dusk like a huge bumble bee. I will be many, buzz even as a swarm of motorbikes, be borne, body by flying body out into the Brazilian wilderness beneath the stars, lofted under those beautiful and un-fused elytra which we will all hold over our backs. So finally I too will shine like a violet ground beetle under a stone."
I bet if you started a Bug Drawer* for people, you would get at least a few customers.
*is this what it's actually called? It's what my family says, about the thing at the university where you take your deer head to have the bugs eat the meat off so you can hang the skull on the wall
Donated to science! Or exposed to the elements Zoroastrian-style.
One of the largest decomposition farms is near here, and on occasion families get upset when their loved one donates themself to Science! and ends up rotting in the decomposition farm.
12.1: I would not be one of those customers.
I think anaerobic decomposition kind of turns you into liquid person-goo.
This is one of the reasons why I would like to be buried in a wooden box that will itself rot. Is burial just straight in the ground even, like, legal?
14: That's even better. For Justice more than for Science.
Here's another enjoyable Venus Handcuffs tune.
Broken sword in hand, surrounded by the steaming corpses of my slain foes. Also maidens wailing, please.
The oak / Shall send his roots abroad, and drink thy goo.
I'd like to get torn apart by wild animals.
But then what about when you're dead?
Heavy! Eaten by some squirrels.
Everyone donates their body to Science. To even things up, mine can go to Modern Languages.
Maybe I'll give mine to the Provost's office.
It's kind of like your virginity.
25: In the short term, I'm squirrel-food. But come the resurrection of the body, those little bastards are gonna be short some weight.
How can I go about getting fossilized? Maybe get buried in a vat of silica-rich mud?
Too old and damaged to donate organs now. I think.
Paperwork is signed and sealed. We donate our corpses to med students, remains to be somehow used in med center garden. Decontaminated? Ashes? Don't know. Don't care. Do what they will. No relatives will complain at all.
Had three close relatives go that way already.
What did Yossarian say? I forget. Lights go out, it's garbage.
Although suddenly the idea of being set out on the curb for Tuesday pickup sounds attractive.
I recall a story, possibly apocryphal, about legendary University of Kentucky basketball coach Adolph Rupp donating his body to the UK Medical School upon his death. Supposedly all of the med students refused to dissect him, so they just went ahead and buried him.
27: AWB, you could make great use of a cadaver in one of your lectures, surely?
I want to be buried under a fruit tree, preferably apricot or peach. That way people can cannibalize me at one remove. I'd actually be fine with signing my body over to be cannibalized directly but I think there are legal issues with that.
36: Absolutely! Then worms shall try that long-preserved virginity!
I'm with Flip in 20: but I don't think it's gonna happen. How did the Romans and others throw themselves on a sword? I'd think there would be large number of botched and painful attempts as the damned thing angled off to one side or the other.
Is there a market for a sword guide & alignment harness? Custom fittings?
How did the Romans and others throw themselves on a sword? I'd think there would be large number of botched and painful attempts as the damned thing angled off to one side or the other.
40: Clearly the Japanese method is better if one has a strong and skilled friend handy. The problems would be the US legal system and getting the skillz needed for a clean beheading. Watching Game of Thrones over and over doesn't cut it.
Everybody I'm aware of on both sides of my family has been cremated, so I've always kind of assumed I will too. Although a "green funeral" has its attractions. Whatever is the cheapest and least trouble, would be my rule of thumb.
If I've got any money left, people can have a party. When my uncle died a former colleague brought a ton of champagne to the funeral and we all got totally shit faced. It was exactly what he would have wanted.
41:The Japanese have many methods. The sharp dagger at the throat used to be gendered, but we are past that now.
My impression is that "skills" weren't as important as, so often the case, an adequate instrument and "the willing" as the Duke once said. Most representations of failure I have seen involve hesitation. Damn that hesitancy.
Where was that article I read yesterday about "throwing like a girl?" You have to rotate your hips and shoulders in succession to get full leverage and momentum.
Whatever is the cheapest and least trouble... people can have a party.
Yeah, all kidding around aside, that's my preference. Get loaded, tell some stories about the awesomeness of me, keep on truckin'.
I want to be shot from a cannon into the face of my worst enemy.
Alternately, gunned down in the snow so that the blood slowly stains the pure white.
In reality, I'll probably end up eaten by stray dogs.
The cheapest way for corpses in good condition is to toss them in front of the most expensive car leaving the parking lot of a bar.
44. Yeah. Mrs y was very pleased to have made it to the party when her Irish American uncle died, as it entitles her to say she was at Finnegans Wake.
Since high school, I always had this fantasy that if I died young, everyone who never fucked me who wanted to should say so at the funeral. "She was lovely, and I never fucked her."
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I don't want to throw a damper on things, but we should probably remember that Ile's mom died suddenly back in May, and she wasn't doing well about it (might could use offblog communication, I'm not sure), so maybe keep it minimally morbid. I've no idea if she reads here any more. Carry on.
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49: My condolences to Ile if she is reading, but I don't think we need you to play babysitter. Ile or anyone else can read the OP and skip the comments if they're not up for the inevitable jokes that are part of every thread.
But what I came on to say is that there are yet more options for being devoured by nature:
Crocodiles are drawn to the carcass, and we see that their powerful jaws aren't versatile enough to rip the hide. The crocodiles do, however, find a vulnerable spot in the animal, which was male.
I've been morbidly obsessed with death lately and thinking about what illness I'd like to have take me off in the end. No dementia, but what would be good? So obsessed that I'm hardly thinking about living and worried about slipping into a bad depression.
If you have to be morbidly obsessed with something, I'd say death is an appropriate object.
53: Yes, that's probably right. I'd just like to stop being obsessed.
When I think about death, food tastes really good.
39, 40: Ajax buried the hilt of his sword in the ground and then jumped on the blade.
When I think about death, my left hind leg twitches rapidly.
Indeed, I didn't want to play babysitter, but felt the need to write something anyway. So it goes.
Yes, sometimes we must do things we don't want to, like be solicitous on behalf of others who may or may not even be present, much less care.
Weirdly, I don't exactly know where my father is buried. Or my mother either, exactly. I mean I couldn't take you to the cemetery. I feel that this might be a serious lapse on my part.
Me: way, way secular.
Well it's a good thing they aren't reading, I guess.
Too bad Flippanter's 20 isn't a possibility but I've always been particular to being struck by lightning.
Also, to continue the morbid tendency of this thread: awake and aware or in your sleep?
I want to be completely awake and aware of what's going on when the time comes.
(59: neb, yeah, I worry about Ile. Sorry. People who know her might could see how she's doing; she stopped writing.)
62: Barry Freed, no way. In your sleep.
I, too, would like to die in Barry Freed's sleep.
55: If generally true, it seems unnecessary for airline food to have such a bad reputation.
62.last: "I'd rather go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather than screaming in terror like his passengers."
I would like my corpse to be thrown into a volcano as part of a brute pagan ceremony.
Or, if I must have a Christian-themed death, I would like my crucified corpse to hang on my front lawn for three days.
56: That sounds too proctological.
IMX bleeding to death seems to be painless as far as I went down that road but one gets very cold during the process.
Maybe lots of paper cuts and an electric blanket is the way to go.
I would like to be dressed in an anachronistic or invented costume (possibly a shirt made of Nature) and sunk in a bog.
Oh, 69.2 made me laugh. Trust me, I paused three times before saying so.
I'm pretty sure I won't rot when I die, because I'm a saint.
Marginally topical, since hunting is one of the more death-oriented recreational activities, this video is pretty funny.
I'm pretty sure I won't rot when I die, because I'm a saint.
Or maybe you're one of those creepy buddhist monks who slowly starve themselves.
Trust me, I paused three times before saying so.
You mean you denied your sense of humor thrice before the cock crowed?
76: Yes! I don't know why. Peace among us all.
39: hold it in front of you, point at the right place, run up against a wall.
78:79: Jeez! An honest-to-Cthulhu spit-take.
What's the difference between slowly starving yourself, and starving yourself?
What's the difference between slowly starving yourself, and starving yourself?
When you slowly starve yourself you keep eating but in diminishing amounts over a long period of time. Like this.
Yes, I read that too -- but I guess I don't consider them to be starving themselves when they're eating the nuts and seeds, or the bark. They begin starving themselves when they stop eating, and it happens at the speed it happens (it's actually somewhat probably faster as a. they have no body fat to live off, and b. they drink poisoned tea before they go down in the hole). It is totally true they are creepy.
Still makes more sense than $300 melons for giving as gifts.
Does anyone here actually know about all the logistics of donating one's body to science? I have heard that there are way more people who want to do this than science can actually use, and (maybe? can't quite remember the conversation) that the cadavers used in gross anatomy, at least, have to fulfill certain criteria that are not that easy to meet. I think the person telling me this had an uncle or aunt who tried to go the donate to science route, and was rejected before s/he had even died.
In dealing with the prospect of my mother dying (she has stage IV stomach cancer*), one of the worst things for me early on was imagining her being buried. Dead, okay, but dead and under the ground? Nonononono. But I think for my mom the feeling is almost reversed: I told her once, after I had already reached adulthood, that I would definitely want to be cremated when I died, and she was really upset by that.
*Blumemom status: the cancer has been holding steady for just over a year now, after having shrunk a bit when she first started on her current regimen. Her doctors have never seen someone on this particular chemo regimen for this long before; either people stop tolerating it, or it stops being effective, or they die. So yay? For now.
90: I strongly agree with both you *and* your mother, and, in fact, I was about to ask whether there's any way of dealing with a loved one's body that is actually tolerable to contemplate. I mean, I've settled on cremation as the least upsetting (because at least the awful part is over quickly) but that doesn't mean I can bear to think about it in any detail.
(And that's really good news that your mother is holding steady).
My mother-in-law married out. When my father-in-law died, she was too upset to worry about the funeral, so his sister took charge and we had a quasi-Catholic funeral. He had been embalmed, dressed in a suit, open casket with viewing, in-funeral-home quasi-service. She died about a month ago. She died on a Friday night. I and her sister made arrangements tio have her funeral that Sunday during the period between when the nurse told us she had been unable to detect a heartbeat and the doctor made her death official. Since her sister cared, we had a Jewish funeral (I paid, though): no embalming, family carrying the body to the grave (my daughter came forward; the funeral director worried about her; she told him her roadie nickname had been "Altoid": small but curiously strong), graveside service with a rabbi saying the Kaddish, family covering the body with earth. Of the two, the Jewish funeral is much preferable (and cheaper!).
So, heebie, when the time comes, remember your heritage.
I also want to be buried in a plain shroud or box under a fruit-tree. I fondly imagine the roots winding around my pretty bones. Also, I want a stone bench with the inscription "If you don't like my apples, why do you shake my tree?"
Haven't we had this discussion before?
Howsomeever, in Wshington state, at least, to be buried on your own land requires that you set aside at least an acre in perpetuity with a $25K endowment (IIRC). And the remaining lot has to meet zoning without the acre. My grandfather is accordingly under several dawn redwoods (his preference) as ashes and bony bits.
My mother says she would be content on the compost-heap, but the bears would come get her. Ashes for her too. No preference as to plant, but she wants bagpipes at the ceremony.
I keep hearing that human skeletons are hard to find and disturbingly many of them are lifted from poor nations without the consent of the deceased or their families -- don't know how we'd know that -- perhaps arranging to have one's skeleton cleaned and sold, and the profits given to science?
Being fossilized or peat-preserved is a great idea. I don't know where the fine anaerobic mud that's sinking geologically is. The Mississippi delta?
A professor of mine was buried up in the mountains, wrapped in a sack. That seems like a nice way to be disposed of if it's just you, but t's not a generalizable practice. Sky burial seems cool, but cremation is definitely my first choice. I'm glad some people turn out to be bog-men, but it's not really my thing.
I'll go for cremation: is it more expensive than burial? I worry most about expense for my survivors. I happen to think it's most appropriate -- dust in the wind and all that -- though I realize not everyone agrees.
Blume, best wishes to you and your mom.
As you might expect, T-Rex is all over these issues.
Erm, not to get overly into specifics, but my mom prepaid for her funeral proceedings; I'm not exactly sure how that worked, but it was basically already paid, at a lower cost than it would have been when the time actually came. It's something to look into, for one's own self's death proceedings.
I assumed a priori that cremation would be much cheaper, and that does seem to be the case.
My parents made most of the arrangements for my dad in advance, and prepaid a portion of the cost. This made meeting with the funeral home a lot easier when the time came.
I find it kind of fascinating how varied people's intuitions are on what is and is not disturbing about various burial practices, even within the same culture. The contrast between Blume and her mother is particularly striking.
I wrote a post touching on some of these issues a while back.
89: Search for "willed body program" or "donated body program" at your medical school of choice. They seem to generally have sites with forms or at least contact info to get the forms.
No idea how many are rejected, or how the logistics work. UCSF's form says they arrange and cover the cost of transporting the body.
Interesting map of cremation rates by state.
That was a really interesting post, teo.
i knew a polish doctor with advanced gastric cancer who took this medicine for 11 years
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12775017
in combination with the conventional chemo and vilcacora http://www.herbsecret.co.uk/index.php?page=product.php&id_product=97&_return=form&id_form=2
sorry i couldn't msg B on FB and just post here, hope she sees this, good luck to B and B's mom
105: Thanks, and best of luck to you and your mom.
It is weird that I only just thought of this (thoughts went first to my mom), but my dad actually works at a funeral home. He started there as a sort of gopher a couple of years after he retired. It turns out to be a surprisingly good job for him, because he likes people, and sooner or later you come in contact with everyone through the funeral home. But the interesting thing is this: he has been thinking about taking the test to get licensed as a funeral director, not because he wants to take on any other roles, but because there are all kinds of weird regulations about dead and/or embalmed bodies. In particular, there's a law
(in Missouri, at least) that requires a person who is alone with a dead body at some point in the process to have a license. So if there's a body in the enbalming area and no one else is around, my dad isn't allowed to go in there.
It turns out to be a surprisingly good job for him, because he likes people...
The friendliest guy from my high school class went into funeral directing. Lots of people were surprised by this, but it really seems to have been a good career for him.
My thoughts for your mom.
Teo, good post. It brought to mind this local story. I suppose
That was a fascinating post, Teo. I would have thought of anthropologists in those terms, but it never occurred to me that archaeologists are much more intimately connected with death.
Minivet's chart is really interesting too. I had no idea that cremation was such a western phenomenon, and now I'm trying to figure out why. My first thought is that there's so much more beautiful landscape on which to scatter ashes, but I'm guessing it really has to do with settler culture or something like that.
As I recall, there are all sorts of laws regarding death and burial. There's a movement out there of people who want to be able to bury their own deceased loved ones right into the ground (no casket), but it's illegal pretty much everywhere.
Why is that, anyway? Concerns about decomposition spreading disease through the soil? Or is it a holdover of religious beliefs? I don't really know why we embalm. Must be something about disease -- after all, there are more dead people buried than there are people walking the face of the earth. Wouldn't it be better if we let them decompose more quickly, along with their caskets?
I had no idea that cremation was such a western phenomenon, and now I'm trying to figure out why. My first thought is that there's so much more beautiful landscape on which to scatter ashes, but I'm guessing it really has to do with settler culture or something like that.
I suspect it has something to do with the fact that (per that same Wikipedia article) the popularity of cremation in the US is a very recent phenomenon. I'm not sure how exactly this would fit together, but it seems plausible that there's a connection.
112: Modern embalming techniques developed just before the Civil War and they enabled middle-class families to bring their dead sons back home for burial--and even see the body before putting it in the ground (Drew Faust writes about this in This Republic of Suffering). My guess is that this helped to make embalming the norm even after the war ended--by that time, it had become part of peoples' sense of what a proper funeral entailed.
Cremation is cheaper, and the western world is becoming increasingly secular.
Wouldn't it be better if we let them decompose more quickly, along with their caskets?
The probably depends on how many, the type of the ground (especially the water table), and other factors.
115: Not the western world, the western states. Although now that I look at the map again, I see that really it's the western states, New England, and Florida, which is really an inexplicably random array.
115: I'm sure that's part of it, but it doesn't explain why cremation is still pretty uncommon in, say, the Northeast. Religion does probably explain the low rates in Utah and the Deep South.
Anyway, and this is part of what I was getting at in the post, I'm there are a lot of fascinating stories in the history of burial practices and the interplay of religion, economics, public health, etc. that most people don't know. Someone could probably write a pretty interesting book about all this. Maybe someone already has.
118: Oh, I'm sorry. I'd misunderstood.
Thanks for that, in 114, about embalming. So it really has little to do with disease prevention, at least any more.
Thinking about it some more, I wonder if the popularity of cremation on the West Coast has something to do with the larger Asian populations in those states than elsewhere in the country.
122: Maybe, but seeing Florida also on the list, I think it may have something to do with people not having as long of a family history in the place where they live. If you are living in the same city where your parents and grandparents are buried, you'll probably a connection to the place sufficient that you'll want to be fixed in place.
123: Yeah, Florida is probably a special case. Really I suspect each part of the country has its own set of unique circumstances driving the proportions of cremation and burial.
The Cremation Society of Alaska advertises heavily on the radio, emphasizing how cheap and easy cremation is. (I know this because the cow-orker in the next cubicle listens to the radio all day long.) Note that Alaska has one of the higher cremation rates.
122: That's an interesting thought, but wouldn't the large populations of Asians be counterbalanced by the even larger populations of Latinos? I'm not sure if cremation is explicitly forbidden to Catholics, but certainly Irish- and Italian-Americans would never consider it.
We cremated the second dog. The first dog was buried in the yard, but after we moved to the big city we couldn't do that.
124: Teo! How can you give up on the effort to generalize wildly in the absence of evidence so early in the thread?
126: Probably, but seeing Asians do it might have inspired non-Catholic Anglos to take it up. This wouldn't account for Florida or New England, of course.
126: I'm Irish and Italian and that's certainly how my family feels. However, it's been Church-approved since the 60s.
While we're on the topic, I should note that Jews generally disapprove strongly of cremation (for Jews; we don't particularly care what other people do). It is against traditional Jewish practice, but that's not why most people object to it.
What? We're giving up on the effort to generalize wildly? I was just about to declare that it was a function of the godlessness of the west coast and New England (compared to the heartland). Exercising due diligence, I decided to consult the map again.
Jews also disapprove strongly of tattoos for Jews but really love to look at goyim with tramp stamps.
Of me, anyway. I wouldn't want to generalize.
Except that I don't actually strongly disapprove of tattoos even for Jews. So I guess it's not actually true at all. Oh well.
It is against traditional Jewish practice, but that's not why most people object to it.
Why do they (I assume you mean most Jews) object to it?
I saw a picture of the ne pas ultra of tramp stamps. It was basically a lower-back-sized set of bike handlebars.
Or maybe you mean most people as in everyone.
Why do they (I assume you mean most Jews) object to it?
I do mean most Jews (or at least many), not most people in general. (I have no idea what the general public thinks about cremation.) As for why, well, think about what associations cremation might have for Jews living today.
141: you mean it isn't Paul's Boutique?
Oh, I'm sorry -- I hadn't thought of that. Apologies. I guess I honestly didn't think most Jews living in the US today would have that literal association. My bad.
For failing to realize, or remember, that there would be an association with the gas chamber. The Holocaust. Still today and now. It's a failing on my part.
I'm totally going with cremation. No obvious place to put the body, a lot of bother to put people to. Instead they can have some fun spreading my ashes.
146: Eh, it's not a big deal. I wouldn't expect gentiles to automatically make the connection.
Anyway, for myself I'll definitely go with something closely approximating traditional Jewish practice. I've had my struggles with Judaism in various ways, and I expect that to continue, but I think the way Jews handle death and burial is one of the religion's major strong points.
I'd like to be post-Jewish, but I think it's too soon yet for our generations. For all I know, as an adoptee, I'm Jewish myself. I'm just peculiarly Jew-blind: I don't notice, or mark, or tag, people as Jewish or not. It doesn't matter one way or the other to me; but it does to you, and that's the important part.
My wife tells me I'm getting cremated and has made it clear that, should I predecease her,I don't really have a choice in the matter.
152: I kind of don't. Trust me, it gets me in trouble.
I'm just peculiarly Jew-blind: I don't notice, or mark, or tag, people as Jewish or not. It doesn't matter one way or the other to me; but it does to you, and that's the important part.
I... am not sure how to respond to this. I guess it matters to me in the sense that I consider myself Jewish and that's an important part of my identity (though by no means the only or even the most important part). There are people to whom it matters much more. Those people would probably be significantly more annoyed by the way you phrased this than I am, which is slightly.
If only they would wear some sort of identifying mark.
150: I'm confused by this. It seems to me that you're conflating your ability to discern whether someone belongs to a group with your ability to understand what belonging to that group means--the former is a trivial ability, the latter is pretty fundamental. I mean, I'm not always able to distinguish a Chinese person from a Japanese person, but I know that it's an important difference and have some sense of what that difference entails. Surely you're not saying you lack that sense with respect to Jews?
Ah, I just realized that it's past my swimming time. I'm sorry, Parsimon, that I'm disappearing after asking you a question, and I hope we can continue this conversation some other time.
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thought 150 was weird and confusing.
My advice, parsi, is to put down the shovel.
154: There are people to whom it matters much more. Those people would probably be significantly more annoyed by the way you phrased this than I am
It's getting late.
I struggled with my phrasing. I meant this: I hear people (Jews or gentiles) often enough relating a story about someone, and they remark, "He's Jewish, by the way." To which I reply, "Okay, and, so, does that have something to with it? No? Okay, then, go on."
I meant that a lot of people mark Jewishness when it seems completely irrelevant. I do understand that the distinction is relevant in certain circumstances, but I have a hard time making it a routine part of my people-sorting.
correction to 160: "something to do with it"
Now I'll take Charley's advice in 159.
162: That sounds like a good plan, yeah.
Honestly, teo, though! If someone is telling a story about going out to dinner with someone, why on earth do we need to note that he's Jewish?!
Okay, I'm off.
I was wondering where the hell all the other Jews were.
Back for one more thing.
155: If only they would wear some sort of identifying mark.
But that's just it. Unless Jews want themselves to be marked, I don't want to mark them.
You don't have to mark us. We don't care.
But you also don't have to make a big deal about not marking us.
Honestly, I'm really just not understanding where any of this is coming from.
I got your back, teo.
See, this is where the handlebars would be useful, but no.
That exchange made me want to go watch Lewis Black on Jews and Christians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvLY4nL-86c
I did recently see an example of how I'd like my death described in my obit. Over Labor Day I was up at the family cabin near Lassen and looking through some old clippings with my Dad and his siblings. The obit for my grandfather's sister or aunt, I forget which, was in some small town Bay Area newspaper from around 1925 or so and used the line "answered the grim reapers call".
176: I'm not usually a big Lewis Black fan, but that was pretty great.
but it never occurred to me that archaeologists are much more intimately connected with death
My SiL and her husband are archaeologists, and dead people pretty much pay their rent, because there's a law (in CA? maybe just in SF) that any time a developer uncovers human remains while building or demolishing anything, they have to stop work and get an archaeologist to survey the site and write a report for city hall. There are an awful lot of Native Americans buried in the Bay Area in the last few thousand years...
Further to the auto-icon bid above, I want to organise it so that when people come and view Bentham, they look at my mummy looming behind him and say "and who's this?" and the guide says "We actually have no idea..."
159: Bad advice when the zombies come.
Team Jew! I've been wishing Parsli would fuss over my ethnicity more often.
OT: Foodie relative complains about "cork taint" on FB, but I can't make the obvious joke because relatives.
180 I don't think there's enough room in the cabinet. But I think it's a fine aspiration and maybe you could sell it if they made parts of your skeleton animatronic so every few hours you reached over and adjusted his hat or brushed his lapels or made sure his cane was sitting more securely in his lap.
141: My long-ago reaction to hearing my parents objection to cremation and tattoos was a reversal. "I'm here and the Third Reich is not, I'll do those things of my own free choice as some sort of give-'em-the-finger act." It's related to the guns thing too.
Parsi is right to some extent. IMX Jewishness seems to come up in conversations fairly often for no particular reason that I can see. It puts me on low alert. Trust no one.
187: That seems like lots of work. Liquid nitrogen?
If the political and legal problems were solvable, the thing to do is buy up a few square miles of wilderness somewhere and offer aerial drop burials (with or without biodegradable wrappings) from large kites. The critters get food and relatives and friends get to feel good.
188. Towers of Silence. The large kites will find the deceased on their own, if you're in a country that has kites. Otherwise, you'll just have to make do with buzzards.
According to David Gregory, Bibi is the official leader of all Jews, so we should get his opinion.
189: Kites for kites works for me. For some reason the importance of dead bodies escapes me. Things that were very important to the person or remind me strongly of them are far more significant. Some books and other things the DE especially loved are important to me, her ashes not at all. I wouldn't have claimed them after the autopsy if they weren't important to her mother.
Entirely agree with 191. When I was a kid the mantra was, "Once you're dead you're just 6/8d (at that time about 90 cents) worth of chemicals." I expect inflation has taken a bite since then, but it's my father's favourite records and my mother's favourite books that I cling to. All flesh is grass, although unfortunately you can't smoke it.
Wasn't Keith Richards supposed to have mixed his father's ashes with cocaine and snorted him? Or something like that.
If I get cremated, I still want to be buried. My grandmother was cremated, because there wasn't room for a casket next to her husband's grave. I'd be okay with being stored in a columbarium too.
Keith Richards ashes will have enough residual drugs by itself.
By themselves? I'm unclear on the usage.
BG, were you at a Brueggers this morning?
197: Yes, in Porter Square. Were you there?
194.last: That sounds as if it should have something to do with pigeons.
Yes, around 10, thought I saw you by the window. They were out of non-plain bagels though so I went to the one in Belmont.
I'm unclear on the usage.
Pretty standard: arrange into lines, plug a nostril, and inhale.
200: They had a whole bunch of Everything bagels when I got there, and I had my pumpernickel with salmon cream cheese. I've never been to one in Belmont. I don't like the Lexington location, but the WOburn one is pretty good.
Living in a smaller city, it's so strange to hear of the huge diversity of breakfast places in a big city.
Boston has an endless number of mediocre bagel places.
205: I know. Not everywhere can be New York.
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Also, yesterday I tried to talk to my sister about what's going on with my parents. And it turns out that her boyfriend was fired from his job and went away for the weekend, but she couldn't remember where. And she's totally paranoid. My father's been pretty confused after his staph infection, so I really can't talk to him about this, and he'd probably do something impulsive. I e-mailed her godmother, but I just don't have the emotional resources right now to deal with this. I hope I can make it through the next couple of weeks. I have to do some work now, because I couldn't concentrate at all on Friday.
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Can somebody who knows what they are talking about weigh in Tyler Cowen's NYT op-ed on world hunger? I find myself massively distrusting it without any real reason I can put my finger on. (Well, except that I distrust Cowen generally.)
I thought it was reasonably well-settled fact that world hunger was mostly a political problem, not a literal food-supply problem. Is this not the case?
That stinks, bg. I'm sorry to hear it. I hope her godmother is available to step in and help a bit.
How is a political problem supposed to be more solvable than a literal food-supply problem?
It's not more solvable, but the solutions are very different.
Apparently Cowen thinks that part of the problem are that poor countries try to ban speculators and pass other laws trying to "interfere" with the so-called free market.
I don't know enough to know whether his diagnosis is accurate. I do know that the people who have talked to me about food problems in Haiti have emphasized the heavy cost to domestic rice producers (= long-term food suppliers) when massive amounts of imported rice are donated (= short-term emergency response).
Frankly anyone who hangs their hat on "the long run" is a disgusting Mellonist and should not be trusted about anything. Except, I guess, local food recommendations.
Sorry, I heard Liz Cheney on the CSPAN radio replay of some Sunday chat show and now I'm all "Fraternité, ou la Mort!"
IMX Jewishness seems to come up in conversations fairly often for no particular reason that I can see.
Huh. This has not been my experience whatsoever, which probably colored my response to parsimon.
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I really like the way LGM has gone the full pastry breakfast route with trolls.
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It occurs to me that my big fat book on fermentation has a chapter on corpses.
214: One difference between the Deep South and the West? Where one went to church was a common question, and an answer of "We don't." prompted more questions. I didn't get any feelings of hostility, 'twas more curiosity about how much baby blood one needed for the matzo recipe and how barbers dealt with the horns.
217: I was thinking that might be the difference, yeah, or at least part of it.
217: My landlady asked me that when I lived in Mississippi. Not wanting to provided the accurate answer, I told her the church of my upbringing:
"Catholic,"I said.
"Oh, that's nice too," she said.
I don't know enough to know whether his diagnosis is accurate.
You know that he's Tyler Cowen, so you know that he's a dishonest dick, so you know enough without knowing it.
His example of a country with insufficiently neoliberal policies is Malawi. Note that he doesn't say that Malawi particularly has got bad food security. That's because it doesn't. Malawi has done very well out of its interventionist approach.
Wait. How did I miss 126: I'm not sure if cremation is explicitly forbidden to Catholics, but certainly Irish- and Italian-Americans would never consider it.
Cremation is no longer at all forbidden by the Catholic church. And my very Italian and Irish Northeastern family has not only considered it, but done it bunches.
I think people talk about Jewishness more on the east coast than in, say, Montana (or New Mexico? I have no idea), just because there are more Jewish people and a more solid community. I've never felt annoyed by it though.
In my circles, people definitely talk about being Jewish more than they talk about being Christian, which is much more likely to be the subject of general mockery for no reason. I understand why but it still makes me uncomfortable.
Though if Northeastern Catholics are now cremating, that makes it even more puzzling that overall cremation rates for those states are so low.
I think people talk about Jewishness more on the east coast than in, say, Montana (or New Mexico? I have no idea), just because there are more Jewish people and a more solid community. I've never felt annoyed by it though.
Yeah, I thought of that as an explanation too. It might account for what parsimon was describing. I never particularly noticed it when I was living on the east coast, but I didn't live there very long.
224: Most of us aren't thin enough to do in bunches.
We're not as frugal as some ethnic groups, but a bargain is a bargain.
222: I added anecdotal value, buster!
I hate everything bagels. And probably want to be cremated but also won't care b/c dead. And am seriously thinking of getting a tattoo about which I can't stop talking and am very tired of hearing myself talk. I think it is probably time to ignite or get out of the crematorium, if that's the expression I'm after.
Funeral Directors lay a trip on you, discouraging cremation by implying that it's low-status. One wonders if that has something to with the lower rates on the coasts.
The West Coast is significantly less religious across the board than other regions of the country.
In the relatively small world of my professional life, it's mildly surprising when people (at least people who aren't obviously non-Jewish, ie have some strongly Irish name or are African American) aren't Jewish. Under 25% of my firm will be in tomorrow, and most of the folks at the client I have, and almost every opposing counsel I have will also not be working.
I love everything bagels as long as they contain no caraway seeds.
Funeral Directors lay a trip on you...
And then bury whoever falls in the hole.
232: "Everything" implies that they will.
I think I'd be fine with everything bagels if they didn't have big chunks of salt. If I wanted a pretzel, I'd have a pretzel. Blekh. I FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT THIS.
230: Nevermind. Popular in Cali!
Cali's a pretty low-rent place though.
I only like extremely traditional bagel things like plain with salmon or cinnamon-raisin with cream cheese.
I thought about making some bagel-related comment but at this point you all know what I'd say.
160
I meant that a lot of people mark Jewishness when it seems completely irrelevant. I do understand that the distinction is relevant in certain circumstances, but I have a hard time making it a routine part of my people-sorting.
I think some people note things like that as a way of remembering people and keeping them straight. I tend to be pretty oblivious but then I am terrible at remembering people.
BG, were you at a Brueggers this morning?
Is there no more sanctity of off-blog bagel consumption?
223, 225: Speculating wildly (since this tactic has already done well by me upthread), I would guess that this is because the social circles you are in are generally low on religious observance in general, but many Jewish people who are not religiously observant still identify as culturally Jewish, and so are as apt to talk about it as any other cultural identifier.
Also, sort of to 231: I once worked for a company that scheduled a major legal event for one of the High Holy Days. No amount of arguing on the part of junior staff could get them to change it. Idiotic.
I would guess that this is because the social circles you are in are generally low on religious observance in general, but many Jewish people who are not religiously observant still identify as culturally Jewish, and so are as apt to talk about it as any other cultural identifier.
Yeah, I think this accounts for what EM was describing.
There are some bagel places around here. I have not yet tried them.
230: Cremation is low-status? I thought it was, like, totes sophisticated.
242, 244- some of it, sure, but the (smaller group of) people I know who are religiously observant Jews talk about it more than do the people I know who are religiously observant Christians. As far as I can tell these groups (meaning, the people I know in these groups) are of similar sizes and similar... uh... religiosities?
Anyway I think it's because of wingers and tea partiers giving the lefty Christians a bad name.
239: If it makes you feel any better, Halford, I always get mine thin cut and often order it as smoked salmon sandwich so that I can get protein and healthy fats.
236: I don't like them either, although I wouldn't hate the salt alone if it was just salt or maybe salt and pepper. Garlic is okay on its own on a bagel too, but I don't like it in combination with all that other stuff.
I have a kind of stupid question about where cultural Judaism blends into slightly religious Judaism. I know Jewish people who observe Passover but not Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. What's the rationale for this? I thought that the others were more significant. Is this because Passover is in celebrated in the home?
251: maybe because culturally you find lots of Christians celebrating passover? Interesting question; my Hebraic acquaintances mostly do a gentle Passover and a Rosh Hashanah, little for Yom Kippur, and a little bit for Hanukkah. Except the few orthodox-ish folks who are whole hog (oops) into the days of awe, along with most other holidays.
As for why, well, think about what associations cremation might have for Jews living today.
I don't think everyone makes those associations. My agnostic Jewish grandmother was cremated.
Is this because Passover is in celebrated in the home?
Probably, yeah. It's not really possible to celebrate the High Holy Days in anything approaching the traditional fashion without going to a synagogue, so people who don't want to do that for whatever reason are pretty much reduced to not celebrating those holidays. Passover you can do completely on your own, though.
253: Yeah, that's what I'm finding from this thread, and I was hesitant about the extent to which I was generalizing about the issue before. Still, I think the association is pretty widespread.
I once knew someone who was a very observant secular Jew. As in, he and his family were part of an organized group that had meetings and Hebrew school etc., but as part of an education about and celebration(-ish) of 6000 years of Jewish identity. Maybe they called themselves Jewish Humanists? This was an NYC thing. In any event, I can't remember what if anything they did for Yom Kippur.
It looks like they do generally celebrate Yom Kippur but don't necessarily fast.
Is there a Jewish holiday reason for the bar to be empty tonight? Or just the early Steeler game.
I've been to two seders in my life and one was explicitly atheist with the participants renouncing all that superstitious god stuff.
Is there a Jewish holiday reason for the bar to be empty tonight?
Yes, tonight is a Jewish holiday.
221: Sorry! I actually thought of adding, "I wonder what oudemia thinks about this," because I was thinking of my Irish/ Italian relatives in New Jersey. It's interesting that your experience is different--maybe it's class related? My relatives were pretty working class.
Still, I think the association is pretty widespread.
Possibly less so among Reform Jews, which is my maternal side. I just asked and found my mother's grandparents were also cremated (this would also have been postwar).
265: Hee! No, we're totally working class too. No idea. And it's probably no coincidence that my grandparents weren't cremated (nor the relatives who died in the 80s or before). And, because of the whole Irish/Italian/Catholic thing everyone still totally has an open-casket viewing (ugh), but the casket is a loaner.
I know Jewish people who observe Passover but not Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. What's the rationale for this? I thought that the others were more significant. Is this because Passover is in celebrated in the home?
I can imagine it also being because Passover is more fun. There's a compelling story to it, there are charming dumb little rituals like duping the kids into thinking a dead guy drank the wine and sending them shrieking around the house to find a disgusting unsalted cracker. And then some of the food is really good (I've made charoses just for the hell of it). And if you're following the service, you drink a fair amount. Rosh Hashanah is sort of ok but Yom Kippur is a fucking drag. Long service about atonement, during which you are hungry. I can imagine going to a seder. Nothing on earth would compel me to go to a Yom Kippur service.
the casket is a loaner
The unpopular sequel to "The Giving Tree."
256: My sister was a Sunday school teacher in a secular/humanist shul in DC. they did things like a trip to the holy land: New York City.
I can imagine it also being because Passover is more fun.
I often hear people say Passover is fun and it puzzles me until I realize that they are just talking about the seder, which I guess is pretty fun as religious observances go. Not eating bread for the next week: not so fun.
274: Smearcase just likes it because he hates babies.
I think I'd like infinite crematio!
a disgusting unsalted cracker
Not disgusting at all. A good bit of butter and a sprinkle of salt and the cracker turns delicious. Or you can mix it with egg and either a bit of salt and bacon or sprinkle sugar and cinnamon on it and make a yummy breakfast/brunch. I always try to remember to stock up on the stuff in the spring.
Yom Kippur sounds like less fun than Good Friday. I don't know enough about Rosh Hashanah, but New Year always sounds like it should be fun. Sukkot and the Sukkah always sounded cool.
The idea of putting bacon on a Jewish foodstuff is making me smile.
teo: yeah, no, the next week is horrid. If any food embodies childhood discontent for me, it's peanut butter and jelly on matzoh. Vile.
Rosh Hashanah's okay. The thing about it and all the other synagogue-based holidays is that the services are just really long and boring. Yom Kippur compounds the unpleasantness with hunger. Sukkot is kind of fun but building a sukkah yourself is a lot of work, and the ones at synagogues tend to be pretty lame.
Ile here! Parsimon's kindness is much appreciated though I am less squeamish about bodies now than I was when she last heard from me. Parsimon, I'm so sorry I stopped corresponding. I was in fact, doing horribly, and basically had to do my best not to get fired, but I managed not to get fired, and I should have written back to you. I just sent you email. Parsimon's kindness and good advice certainly helped me to get on through, and I was woefully bad about acknowledging it.
We did cremate my mother's body, and I think it was a huge part of our healing from the shock, though it took a while to take as such. There was a sense of rightness and closure to it; the ceremony as a whole, ad hoc as it was, makes for a much more consoling memory than the bad day itself. It was a pity that it was so ad hoc though. . .. . .she had always assumed she would finally get the 'we can't keep fixing you, you have 2-6 mos to live' warning and go to India and die there, with everything done properly and cheaply. Thank God for good friends who were willing to help us foot the bill.
The suit from the OP seems remarkably. . .synthetic . . .to me. . .I' surprised an organic decomposable fabric would be so form fitting. The form fitting part of it is somehow what seems more icky to me than anything. That was what I opened up the comment thread to say.
I've designated myself as an organ donor and want to donate my organs to science but I think I still want a cremation for the bulk of me that's not immediately useful. Once I get my finances in order it's on my list of things to set up.
Nothing on earth would compel me to go to a Yom Kippur service.
Um, don't you care about the forgiveness of your fellows, both getting it and asking it?
a disgusting unsalted cracker
You're on crack. I love matzoh, and not just for matzoh brei either.
284: Yeah, matzoh is fine. And peanut butter spread delicately and evenly keeps it from flaking all over and into a keyboard.
The idea of putting bacon on a Jewish foodstuff is making me smile.
One of the guys from the first Top Chef serves/d bacon-stuffed matzoh balls at his restaurant.
So I went to services at the local Reform synagogue and got back a little while ago. It was quite nice.
Not eating bread for the next week: not so fun. performance enhancing paleo goodness.
I bet your max pushup count goes up at least ten percent. I expect reports. For Science.
Well, it's not for several months. And you can eat carbs, they just have to be in a specific form that is specially prepared and exceptionally bland.
283. Glad to hear you're holding it together. Much to be said for not being fired, too.
The idea of putting bacon on a Jewish foodstuff is making me smile.
I guess you could use turkey bacon like the stuff that's sold to Muslims here. Or you could just not give a toss, like the Jewish people I know best IRL.
291: I eat turkey bacon. It's low fat and has a lot of protein. Easily nuked in the microwave during the week, but it isn't exactly bacon. Of course most people (Jewish or otherwise) don't care, but it still makes me smile.
282: No love for Purim? Ritual drunkenness, people!
I love that there is a rabbinical debate on how drunk you should get. Jesuits at least wouldn't hedge on the question, "How drunk should I get?" The answer would always be, "How much booze do you have?"
I'm hoping for some sort of rabbinical definition of acceptable drunkenness, cf. the one about dawn being when it's light enough to distinguish between a black thread and a white one held at arm's length.
cf. the one about dawn being when it's light enough to distinguish between a black thread and a white one held at arm's length.
Is that rabbinical? I have only heard it in the context of the Muslim call to morning prayers. Of course, there are scriptural sources common to both faiths, so it could be that.
231, etc: This is so odd to me, as I'm here at work and I didn't even remember it was Rosh Hashanah, until I followed the link and read Halford's comment.
I am one of those that celebrates Pesah and no other Jewish holiday. Clearly this is theologically untenable.
I could really go for some savory matzoh brei right now.
298: Me. too. Savoury, please! Thanks.
300: I'm not sure why I got all British with the spelling, but yes, I prefer savo(u)ry matzoh brei to sweet. Both are things that exist.
I know, but rfts had just used "savory", American stylee, in the comment immediately above.
I like both sweet and savory matzoh brei.
stylee
Surely, at this point in time, if any usage is to be deemed unacceptable it is this one.
I mean unless Nosflow is changing his name into Nos Lion.
I totally (and totally weirdly) read right over it. Maybe I am having a stroke!
There was a really annoying DJ at KZ/SU who was always on about riddim.
Catching up: 155 and 175 are funny.
Smearcase is nuts in re: matzoth, which are objectively delicious. My Norwegian great-grandmother used to have them around all the time, I think because she couldn't get Norwegian flat bread in NJ.
: My sister was a Sunday school teacher in a secular/humanist shul in DC.
A friend of mine taught Sunday school there, too! At least if it was this one. I wonder if they were there at the same time.
296: all these Middle Eastern faiths look the same to me.