Re: Vaccines and bugs

1

The waiting rooms of anti-vaxx-friendly doctors become outbreak vectors (see "Dr Bob" Sears and the measles).
As to superbugs, never go in the hospital. MRSA and CDiff are horror shows. (My dad was in the hospital for a weird drug interaction, got CDiff, and basically never felt well again.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:14 AM
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Despite the fact that I have no contact with patients, I had to take a MRSA training. The key point seems to be if you do need to go to the hospital, you should develop OCD for a while.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:18 AM
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never go in the hospital

And in fact, one of the people I'm thinking of went in to a hospital to have her baby, and both she and the baby came home with MRSA.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:20 AM
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Not quite OT but Nia is going to the doctor today and I'm afraid she'll have scarlet fever and it will be all my fault for not taking her to the doctor when she said her throat hurt and that she didn't want to go to school Monday morning, even though the infection timing would be wrong and also she was clear that she wanted to stay home more to avoid school than because her throat hurt. Still, I feel pretty lousy about it all and wonder how anti-vax parents whose kids get really sick feel.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:23 AM
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Oh, hurm. I have the story slightly off. One of Dr Bob's unvaxxed patients was patient zero in the 2008 Cali. measles epidemic, but the kid didn't go sit in his office while sick. The link there is worth reading.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:26 AM
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wonder how anti-vax parents whose kids get really sick feel.

From the link:

Glor, who says other parents have referred to her as a "quacky mom," has no plans to change her mind. "It seems easier to nurse a child through an illness rather than have them get something more severe due to a vaccine," she says.

See, you just have to nurse your child through polio, rather than having them get something more severe due to a vaccine.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:26 AM
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There was a measles epidemic at my undergrad school the year before I went. Something about the vaccines schedule they used in the 1970s somehow leading to only temporary coverage (shots too early?). Anyway, they wouldn't let me to go college without another measles shot.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:29 AM
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and wonder how anti-vax parents whose kids get really sick infect other, vaccinated kids feel


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:31 AM
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6: Right, but that's a hypothetical. I'm thinking more about that article about parents who went with homebirths without understanding the risks and then ended up with babies who were injured or who died, and they seemed to really be beating themselves up about what they could have done differently. I'm not sure whether being an anti-vax true believer would be enough to get someone through the actual work of dealing with a truly sick child and the eventual potential outcomes of that.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:32 AM
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8: Well, we already know they don't care about those other kids, who are probably only so sickly anyway because they got vaccinated in the first place. (I hope this isn't actually true, but know in some cases it is.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:35 AM
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something more severe due to a vaccine

I recently had a DTaP, and motherfucking christ did that make me feel like crap, for two days. And you know, lockjaw is only deadly in 11% of cases!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:40 AM
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That shot gets me down for a day or more also.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:41 AM
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and wonder how anti-vax parents whose kids get really sick infect other, vaccinated kids feel

Does this happen? Don't you mean other, unvaccinated (or rather not-yet-vaccinated-because-too-young) kids?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:42 AM
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13: Vaccines are not 100% effective in any given individual (not even close for things like the flu) and much of the work is done by herd immunity.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:44 AM
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9: Mnookin's book The Panic Virus starts off with a story like that. I think maybe the baby got Hib? The book is really interesting.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:45 AM
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13: Yes. Usually with too young to be vaccinated babies. Sometimes with kids who can't be vaccinated for other reasons.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:46 AM
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14: aha. Thanks.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:46 AM
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What 14 said. If the anti-vaxxers were only putting their own kids and the kids of other anti-vaxxers at risk, that would be one thing. But they're also increasing the chances that vaccinated kids for whom the vaccines didn't 'take' will get the diseases.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:47 AM
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I find this whole issue really exasperating. On the one hand you have exceptionally solid science and very persuasive public health concerns for certain vaccines and health procedures. In those cases, it seems like an aggressively anti-social act not to comply.

(This is top of my mind right now because the two-month-old baby of a friend has been in the intensive care unit of a hospital for a month now with whooping cough, and I have been haranguing my nearest and dearest and co-workers etc. with the need to get the Tdap shot. Newborns are too young to be vaccinated but the baby wouldn't have gotten sick in the first place if there wasn't a pertussis epidemic.)

On the other hand, I had an entire childhood full of doctors and dentists pushing the latest and greatest intervention, often with very little research basis. My parents were very assertive about pushing back to "Just trust us" claims, and never got an apology or an acknowledgement when the recommended intervention turned out (surprise!) to have some costs associated with it.

I'm thinking particularly of the dentist who was extremely dismissive of the risk of frequent x-rays. Of course, today at the dentist they specifically have a new flap on that apron that covers your neck -- because of the rise of thyroid cancer. And many dentists push mouthwash -- but I've never heard one of them talk about the risks and benefits given the potential link to oral cancers.

Shorter me: Extremists on both sides are irritating.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:48 AM
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today at the dentist they specifically have a new flap on that apron that covers your neck

My dentist (nor Hawaiian Punch's) don't have aprons with this flap. Hmmm.

And they seem to be way more x-ray happy than they used to be. I now seem to get them yearly.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:51 AM
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I understand the sympathetic view expressed in 19 if the public health history of vaccines weren't so relatively long and well-known. Or if the anti-vaccine crowd were largely composed of people who were less well educated, or who had historically been ill-served by the healthcare industry. (The only example I'm thinking of is the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, but there must be others?)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:53 AM
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And many dentists push mouthwash -- but I've never heard one of them talk about the risks and benefits given the potential link to oral cancers.

I'd never heard of that at all until just now. I used to use mouthwash because of the whole gum disease-heart disease link, but then I stopped because of there wasn't really room in the cabinet for a bottle that big.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:53 AM
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I would


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:53 AM
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(The only example I'm thinking of is the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, but there must be others?)

There are. I just did the human subject training for researchers. They list them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:54 AM
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And many dentists push mouthwash

My dentist sold me a fancy toothpaste that doesn't taste of sugar and spearmint. I could have hugged him.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:55 AM
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Probably not all of them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:56 AM
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Yeah, I don't associate vaccine advocacy with pushing "the latest and greatest" without research. Everything in the childhood schedule has been studied to death.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:56 AM
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25: What does it taste like? I used a toothpaste in Germany for a while that tasted slightly of cinnamon, but I couldn't get used to it -- just never felt like my mouth was clean.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:58 AM
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Anyway, I keep my dentist because he hasn't tried to sell me on tooth whitening and because I'm waiting to see if his hygenist stabs him.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:59 AM
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I was really into that Tom's of Maine fennel stuff for a while. Now I have entirely precious jasmine stuff from Italy.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:05 AM
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My dentist's office, good otherwise, automatically tries to schedule you for twice-a-year teeth cleanings, which seems to have no proven medical benefit.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:07 AM
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20: Newer x-ray machines give a much much lower dose, because the digital detectors are more sensitive than film.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:08 AM
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33

It's horrible to have clean teeth if there is no medical benefit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:09 AM
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34

I've currently heard of at least 3 people that I know fairly well who have had MRSA or other superbug infections. It's all seeming far too common.

I know quite a few as well but most of them are street whores.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:09 AM
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35

Ooh, snap.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:10 AM
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28. Hard to say, exactly. The main thing is, it's not sweet. Bicarbonate and mixed herbs, I suppose.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:10 AM
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I've had an antibiotic resistant post-op infection, which required iv vancomycin.* Not fucking fun. Not fun at all. Collapsing veins, shitloads of phlebitis, etc. Like being a junky without the getting high.

Also, fucking with herd immunity is a bastard selfish act.

* actually, about three days into the 'vank' they discovered it wasn't completely resistant to a less drastic antibiotic so switched.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:11 AM
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36: My mom says they used to brush their teeth with nothing but bicarbonate. Except that she said "baking soda."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:13 AM
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31 My dentist's office, good otherwise, automatically tries to schedule you for twice-a-year teeth cleanings, which seems to have no proven medical benefit.

I thought all dentists did that? I haven't been to a dentist in a couple of years and my parents have taken to regularly warning me about how not having twice-a-year cleanings will doom me to a life of rotting gums and painful surgeries in the future.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:20 AM
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39: Yes, I think so.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:22 AM
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And many dentists push mouthwash -- but I've never heard one of them talk about the risks and benefits given the potential link to oral cancers.

I believe dentists generally push alcohol-free mouthwash, which has no such poential link.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:23 AM
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Every dentist I've been to did that, certainly. I usually only go once a year, but recently got confused about when I was last at the dentist, so went in around 8 months after my last visit. The cleaning process itself was more pleasant, certainly, but I'm not sure it was $90 more pleasant.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:23 AM
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I've been in the habit of brushing with baking soda alone. It's refreshing. My great grandmother used to do it and her teeth lasted... a while!

My dentist pushes x-rays on me and I tend to push them off to the next time as much as possible. I have no cavities so I think this is pretty valid on my part, but the dentist and hygienist will say stuff about "regions of concern," and "it's similar radiation to sitting in front of the computer all day like you do!" etc. Last time they were like "we switched to digital so it's actually a lot less radiation now!" which certainly made me feel good about skipping all those other times.


Posted by: ursyne | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:23 AM
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I thought all dentists did that?

IME they schedule you for a check up, which is quite reasonable if you're not paying the market price for their time, and then they do the cleaning thing anyway while they've got you pinned down.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:24 AM
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They tried to schedule me for cleanings before I'd even had a checkup. I wouldn't mind so much if it was after they'd had a look.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:26 AM
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A chest x-ray is maybe as much radiation as a single coast-to-coast airline flight. Presumably a jaw x-ray is way less.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:26 AM
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it's similar radiation to sitting in front of the computer all day like you do!

Wow.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:27 AM
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48

I probably should go to a dentist soon, but, well, I have this tendency to procrastinate? Very unusual here, I'm sure.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:28 AM
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49

Maybe next time at the dentist I'll ask if I can get the pat-down instead.


Posted by: ursyne | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:28 AM
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50

What with the switch to LCDs displays don't emit much in the way of x-rays anymore. Your dentist is living in the past, man.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:29 AM
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The first time I went to my dentist, I hadn't been to a dentist in close to four years. The developments in that span of time, plus the fact that he had just opened his practice and had all new equipment, led to my amazement at how hi-tech it was.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:32 AM
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my ^current^ dentist


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:32 AM
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(a) I need to go to a dentist soonish.
(b) Why "vaxx" with two xs?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:33 AM
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I love the new x-rays. I don't know if I have unusually sensitive gums or if I'm just a wimp, but I used to dread having the sharp piece of film jabbing into my mouth while I tried to hold still.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:33 AM
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I believe dentists generally push alcohol-free mouthwash

Bums everywhere disapprove of this trend.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:38 AM
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CRTs emit X-rays? Huh. I never thought about that. I guess if there's hard enough bremsstrahlung, you might get something in the low-frequency end of the X-ray range? But I wouldn't have thought you would get any X-rays in the frequency ranged used in medical imaging. What's the voltage of a CRT?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:40 AM
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I used to dread having the sharp piece of film jabbing into my mouth while I tried to hold still.

I'm surprised you're old enough to remember them. They had the new kind last time I had a dental X-ray 20 years ago, but Brit dentists generally prefer the pat down unless there's something weird going on.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:43 AM
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Seems to me that anti-vaxx is a relative of libertarianism. Maybe not directly correlated, but a result of the same fear & distrust & selfishness, and dressed in the same disdain.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:44 AM
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57 -- I had some X rays two weeks ago, and remarked that it was the same jabby film I remember from 40 years ago. And wondered why they haven't come up with something better. So, now I know: it's because I live in the sticks!


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:46 AM
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56: random googling seems to argue for 5kV.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:47 AM
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Why "vaxx"

It's the 80s, you say it with an asymmetric haircut.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:47 AM
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On dental procrastination, I managed to turn a minor filling into a root canal by avoiding the dentist for ten years, including two years during which I was paying for dental insurance. I don't recommended it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:50 AM
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60: Random Googling also says X-rays below about 15 keV are absorbed by the skin and are useless for medical imaging, so it's the 15-50 keV range that's used in medical imaging. So while CRTs might emit some X-rays, it doesn't seem like they're analogous to the X-rays one would get at at dentist, since they're not going to be energetic enough to be really penetrating.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:51 AM
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Wikipedia says the fancy panoramic dental X-rays are less useful than the old-fashioned film-in-mouth kind.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:55 AM
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55: Bums everywhere disapprove of this trend.

Just walking to work yesterday and saw a bottle of Target house brand mouthwash lying empty next to the kitchen door of the Chinese buffet place. NBA FOREVER!!! (Also, the homeless fellows who hang out around there [railroad track no-man's land behind the shopping center] dumpstered some discarded office furniture a few weeks ago, and set it up in a little circle in the bushes, from which to host their conclaves. Whole area is strewn with alcohol-related garbage now. Talk about blowing up the spot! One of them was trying to get my attention the other day to hit me up for some change and hailed me as "nephew", which made me feel obscurely bad about just walking on by. Oh well.)


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:56 AM
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Anti-vax? But yes, I am anti-vax!


Posted by: Opionated Person Vot Doesn't Like Kendles | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:56 AM
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67

since they're not going to be energetic enough to be really penetrating.

Auch das hat sie gestern Nacht gesagt, als wir eure letzte Begegnung besprochen haben.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:57 AM
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I was at the dentist last week. Short version: My teeth are so fucked. Not quite to a Shane McGowan degree yet, but not good either. My father got dentures in his late 50s, hopefully I can last a bit longer than that. Otherwise I guess I'll be on an all-applesauce and upuma diet.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:59 AM
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The formal diction and capitalization is somewhat jarring with the sentiment expressed in 67.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:59 AM
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70

Tom's of Maine should do a cross-promotion with Tom of Finland.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:05 AM
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I learned something from Tom's of Maine toothpaste. What I learned is never buy toothpaste without artificial sweeteners.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:06 AM
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70: What flavor would that toothpaste be?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:08 AM
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70: What flavor would that toothpaste be?

A difficult question indeed.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:10 AM
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With Tom of Finland perfume: "Clothing becomes merely ornamental, an insignificant wrapping paper that only serves to cloak the true erotic power of the flesh." Not sure what it would do to teeth.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:12 AM
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70: Others think so too.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:14 AM
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There is a Tom of Finland Foundation.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:14 AM
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So, now I know: it's because I live in the sticks!

Nope. I get the same jabby film here.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:17 AM
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75: Huh. Cat and Girl is written by a friend of my disaster ex. (The one through whom I met Standpipe long before he was Standpipe! So actually probably Standpipe knows her, too.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:20 AM
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The one through whom I met Standpipe long before he was Standpipe!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaat


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:25 AM
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80

Mind=Blown


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:25 AM
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68: Fist bump of solidarity, bro. I cracked a molar in half in the middle of nowhere a couple of weeks ago and have to submit to the drill-grind-chisel-chip pre-crown process on Friday.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:36 AM
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80: I never know what counts as sanctified off-blog communication. It occurs to me I may be in violation of policy. I ban myself.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:44 AM
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Standpipe is real?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:53 AM
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Pinning a single identity to Standpipe is like pinning a single shape to the Trickster. It cannot be done. Standpipe exists in the play between is and is-not, was and not-was, between open-the-door and get-on-the-floor.

As for this from the OP: while anti-vaxxing is egregiously stupid, the "super-bug" as a category exists largely because of over-prescription of antibiotics at a mass scale. So the "medical establishment" does not really get away clean on that one.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:56 AM
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Standpipe is a he?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:57 AM
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As for this from the OP

Uh, was originally going to put a quote there...


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:58 AM
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85: "He" in Smearcase's comment, applied clearly to the period before Standpipe was Standpipe. The Standpipe whose gender is unambiguous is not the true Standpipe.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:08 AM
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"The Standpipe whose gender is unambiguous is not the true Standpipe."

At this moment ajay became enlightened.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:10 AM
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Also, if in your journey you should encounter Standpipe on the road, kill them.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:18 AM
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90

To mix threads, children who have trouble using gendered pronouns "correctly" just haven't had their inner-Standpipe-nature socialized out of them yet.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:25 AM
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88 is great but this is all covered clearly and in great detail on Standpipe's blog.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:43 AM
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I've had a couple of dental x-rays this year, and they've been jabby film jobs. Although the same dentist used the new non-film kind for a whole-jaw x-ray, so presumably there were specific reasons for the use of each kind, rather than just being out of date. It's a big busy practice.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:49 AM
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So other than cowering in fear and being mad about use of antibiotics in pork and the like, what are we supposed to do about the Superbugs? It's not like I'm trying to go to the hospital any more than necessary in the first place, and I don't keep hand sanitizer and the like in the home.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:52 AM
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Personally, I've been building up my immune system by living in filth.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:54 AM
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It's not like I'm trying to go to the hospital any more than necessary in the first place

Most days I go to the hospital to get breakfast at the cafeteria. If I die of an infection secondary to eggs and sausage, I'll be pissed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:59 AM
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and I don't keep hand sanitizer and the like in the home.

It's within your power to change that, as I assume you are aware.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:59 AM
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Hand sanitizer is made with alcohol which probably comes from grain.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:00 AM
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I thought you weren't supposed to get the hand sanitizer, bc that would kill your body's natural resistance or whatever and help spawn more superbugs.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:08 AM
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My last few sets of dental X-rays have been digital, but in a form factor that seems exactly like the jabby kind - a little square sensor attached to a thing to bite down on. The most obvious difference is just the USB cable coming out of my mouth. Is there another, less-jabby kind?


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:08 AM
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The most obvious difference is just the USB cable coming out of my mouth.

I just put in a wireless router.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:13 AM
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So other than cowering in fear and being mad about use of antibiotics in pork and the like, what are we supposed to do about the Superbugs?

I would dearly love an answer to this question. MRSA's high on my current list of things to freak the fuck out about, since I a) have psoriasis, which means I have more breaks in my skin for bacteria to infect and b) am on several medications which can affect my body's ability to fight off infection. (I had a non-MRSA staph infection in my nose last year and had to go off the meds for about a month, which was fucking miserable.) At the moment I console myself with constant use of hand sanitizer.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:23 AM
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At the moment I console myself with constant use of hand sanitizer.

Sanitize, cry, sanitize, masturbate, really cry in pain, allow hands to dry completely, masturbate, cry, sanitize.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:33 AM
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Can't imagine that's doing much for the state of the skin on your hands though.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:49 AM
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I thought you weren't supposed to get the hand sanitizer, bc that would kill your body's natural resistance or whatever and help spawn more superbugs.

I thought hand sanitizers were alcohol, which just bursts the bug altogether, and not some sort of antibacteria which it might become resistant to.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:50 AM
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I mean antibiotic.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:50 AM
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Maybe I mean antibiotic soap? I dunno. Anyhow people in non hospital settings who obsessively use hand sanitizer intuitively strike me as OCD weirdos, no offense Josh.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:52 AM
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Maybe I mean antibiotic soap? I dunno.

Yeah, antibiotic soap is no good, but there's a reason hospitals have hand sanitizer dispensers everywhere. heebie gets it right in 104.

Anyhow people in non hospital settings who obsessively use hand sanitizer intuitively strike me as OCD weirdos, no offense Josh.

WHY YOU oh no wait that's totally a fair cop.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 10:55 AM
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The best part about those dispensers is that during cold and flu season everyone walks around looking like they're plotting evil schemes.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:00 AM
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But isn't there something specifically with kids where you're not supposed to use hand sanitizer or keep an excessively clean home so as to encourage them to develop bacterial resistance or whatever?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:02 AM
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You shouldn't even let your kids touch soap and water.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:03 AM
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Or they can, but not on the same day.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:05 AM
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Maybe WebMD agrees with me?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:05 AM
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There's something called the hygiene hypothesis that says that being too clean will make your immune system get bored and attack your own tissues instead, more or less. Eat more dirt!


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:06 AM
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And have pets that shed. The tumbleweeds of doghair in the corners of my apartment are a testimonial to how good a parent I am.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:08 AM
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We have pertussis here. The government can't tell me what to do! It's widely spread enough that there are billboards warning unvaccinated people not to be around babies. New moms-to-be and dads-to-be are told to get vaccinated because we can't rely on herd immunity to protect newborns.

This makes me physically angry.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:13 AM
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The hygiene hypothesis is way overcited in proportion to the evidence, I think.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:14 AM
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Overciting the hygiene hypothesis leaves you vulnerable to anti-idiotic-resistant memes as an a adult.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:16 AM
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Especially when combined with hand sanitizer.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:19 AM
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116: As a slob, a scientific justification for the state of my housekeeping is inevitably going to be overcited.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:27 AM
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The best part about those dispensers is that during cold and flu season everyone walks around looking like they're plotting evil schemes.
"Are they booing me?"
"No, sir, they're saying Boo-urns Unit"


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:45 AM
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Eat more dirt!

Unless you're Gabardine Bathyscape or Mrs. ttaM! (I was just reading an article on toxoplasmosis.)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:48 AM
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John Emerson was a proponent of the "Eat Dirt for Good Health" hypothesis, and there is even a squib on idiocentrism on that theme.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:51 AM
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Eat only dirt that cats have not shitted upon recently.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:52 AM
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The hygiene hypothesis is supposed to explain high levels of allergy and asthma, not susceptibility to bacteria.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:54 AM
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119: Right. But areas with higher pollution and more dirt surprisingly also have higher pediatric asthma rates. There is more evidence for thinking that a lack of hookworms means more allergy and asthma, but that's not the same as "Mom vacuums too much!"


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 11:58 AM
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Indeed my impression from Parasite Rex and 1491 was that lack of hookworms should make us less susceptible to bacteria because the immune system either develops to be predominantly anti-bacteria or predominantly anti-parasite. I forget the details though, so I could have something wrong.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 12:13 PM
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We have pertussis here. The government can't tell me what to do! It's widely spread enough that there are billboards warning unvaccinated people not to be around babies.

Ha, I've been seeing those around. No Kisses!


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 12:46 PM
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Wait, you do need exposure to some bacteria and microbes and the like to develop your immune system, right?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 12:58 PM
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There is no such thing as not being exposed to bacteria and microbes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 1:05 PM
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Well, right, but being in an excessively sterile environment as a child causes your immune system to not develop as well, right.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 1:09 PM
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123 -- Shat. From the French for cat.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 1:09 PM
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O RLY?


Posted by: OPINIONATED LUNAR SURFACE | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 1:09 PM
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130: If only they took the boy out of his plastic bubble sooner!!!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 1:13 PM
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130: I think there is some evidence that your standard outdoor (not shat upon recently) dirt can boost the immune system. I don't think it was for indoor dirt. You certainly don't want to have kids not wash their hands because getting the runs will strengthen them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 1:14 PM
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||

Just overheard the string theorist across the hall from me telling some of his first-year undergrad students "Some people think that physics is an experimental science, but..."

|>


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 1:14 PM
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you do need exposure to some bacteria and microbes and the like to develop your immune system

And to be able to digest anything.

There was an anecdote in a NYT article recently that blew my mind: on a whim and not expecting to find anything, some researchers compared bacteria found in pregnant and non-pregnant women's vaginas. The pregnant women had a quite significant amount more of a certain kind of bacteria that is normally found in the gut, and that happens to aid in digesting milk.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 1:16 PM
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Mars ain't no place to raise a kid, in fact it's sterile as hell, and they'd all get asthma if you did...


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 1:20 PM
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There was an anecdote in a NYT article recently that blew my mind: on a whim and not expecting to find anything, some researchers compared bacteria found in pregnant and non-pregnant women's vaginas.

Best drunken grant application ever.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 2:08 PM
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My Dad had a bad non MRSA staph infection. I think that the air in their apartment was unhealthy. I read somewhere that a particular blend if tea tree and lavender soap kills MRSA. I want to get my Dad some AloeGuard soap or hobo lens, because his immune system is so weak. I think that the staph infection has made him kind of mentally confused.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 3:14 PM
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There was an ad on tv about the adult pertussis vaccine and how being immunized can protect infants. I'm not around babies much but wonder if I should get it.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 3:18 PM
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I didn't go to the dentist for several years and then had to get a deep cleaning because of gum disease. Now I go every 3 months. Luckily my dental insurance pays for it.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 3:24 PM
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FYI alcohol sanitizer does not kill the rhinovirus and may even be a friendly environment, so it's still good to scrub thoroughly under running water.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 3:30 PM
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I'm not around babies much but wonder if I should get it.

Yes, because you might also be around immunocompromised people, or around people who've had the vaccine but had it wear off, who might then be around children.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 3:31 PM
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143: I think I had it. The question is whether I need it again. My doctor is very public health oriented, and she didn't mention it.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 3:35 PM
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I got a tetanus shot a couple of years ago. It's a combined vaccine now, isn't it?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 3:38 PM
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145: It is, or at least was when I got mine a few months back.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 3:55 PM
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While we were in the hospital with new baby two weeks ago they prescribed DTaP for both of us. Apparently that is standard practice now, which is new since last kid 3 year ago. Thanks to Obamacare, no copay! (for the vaccines- having kid copay was $500, our insurance plan got stingy, previous kids were $10 each.)


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 6:56 PM
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Congratulations SP! Hope you and your wife are doing well.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:25 PM
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New baby. Hooray.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:29 PM
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I totally concur with 148, though with the best wishes for the baby I'm sure were implicit there made more explicit.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:29 PM
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150: I don't think that's a fair assumption. I think BG was congratulating them for the lack of a copay.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:35 PM
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151: How do you know it's not both?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:43 PM
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or maybe I was concerned about their sore shoulders. (I think I was probably thinking of how they were holding up under sleep deprivation, truth be told).


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:45 PM
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141

I didn't go to the dentist for several years and then had to get a deep cleaning because of gum disease. ...

Ditto.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:56 PM
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You guys can be gingivitis buddies.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:58 PM
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152, 153: point taken.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 7:59 PM
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People have identifiably different microbiomes on their left hands and right, and you can identify who's used a keyboard from the microbial traces left, and the same lactobacillus that makes sourdough bread is endemic in human breast milk and probably is kept around as a soft boot for the infant immune system. I *love* that last bit.

At least I know my DTap is current because I got it refreshed when I stuck myself with a dirty needle. The only balance to all the OSHA paperwork and embarassment was the doubletake the doctor did when she realized I meant actual dirt, not human fluids. (Then we had a little thought about where anthrax is endemic. Not here.)

Now I'm worried about hantavirus.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 8:58 PM
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109: I think there's another issue with hand sanitizer and little kids besides the hygiene hypothesis. Some kids like the taste of hand sanitizer (or more likely, the taste of the fragrance or lotion in the hand sanitizer). So they lick it off their hands, which defeats the purpose. And if they *really* like the taste, they start consuming it directly, which is really bad.


Posted by: wink ;) | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:17 PM
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The Littlest Hobo.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:24 PM
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Congratulations, SP! And well done on not bringing home MRSA along with the baby.


Posted by: Gabardine Bathyscaphe | Link to this comment | 09-19-12 9:48 PM
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Rory has had a chronic, obnoxious cough for like a year now. I was pissed at the antivaxx Hausfrau for causing the poor kid to be subjected to not one, but two unnecessary pertussis tests. (She told the school she thought it was whooping cough, so Rory couldn't return without a clean test.) It didn't even occur to me at the time to be pissed that if Rory actually did have it, stepmom would be to blame.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-20-12 7:00 AM
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I'm currently in the hospital with a staph/strep a infection. I went to urgent care Tuesday morning for a blister & the next I knew, they were cat scanning for gangrene. It's a real shocker for a hale and hearty 28 yr old like me, and I have some more thoughts to express, bur this iPod is not sufficient.


Posted by: Light rail tycoon | Link to this comment | 09-21-12 5:28 PM
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Best wishes for quick healing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-21-12 5:31 PM
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Holy shit! Hope you're well soon, LRT.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-21-12 5:36 PM
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Gosh, Lrt. May your flesh be rapidly returned to your own dominion.

Between that -- and bedbugs -- and West Nile -- and MRSA -- and I know not what else -- I am considering the habits of the earlier ages... not just cleaning and boiling and avoiding clutter and fluff, but ironing every morning, and possibly adopting gloves and veils in public.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-21-12 6:41 PM
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I've been wearing a plague mask for years now.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-21-12 6:43 PM
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With the pointy nose? .... Before even advancing to candidacy?!


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-21-12 7:13 PM
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I've healed enough to be sent home, and now must battle the bureaucracy until they will send me home.


Posted by: Light rail tycoon | Link to this comment | 09-22-12 5:53 AM
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I've healed enough to be sent home, and now must battle the bureaucracy until they will send me home.


Posted by: Light rail tycoon | Link to this comment | 09-22-12 5:53 AM
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Huzzah! White blood cells: ATTACK THE BUREAUCRACY!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-22-12 5:56 AM
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Holy crap, Light tyke!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-22-12 6:02 AM
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Oof! All good thoughts for a swift and painless recovery, LRT!!!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-22-12 6:03 AM
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I have an irrational fear of getting vaccines in pharmacies, though I'm fine getting one in a big community clinic in a gym from a nurse. I am intrigued enough by the new Intradermal vaccine to consider overcoming my fear and going to CVS to get it. Maybe not to Walgreens though.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-22-12 8:33 AM
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What's wrong with Walgreens? And is CVS demonstrably less evil than Walgreens in some way? I kind of think of them like I do Staples and Office Max—it's really the same store with different words in the red-colored logo.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-22-12 8:55 AM
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174: CVS has minute clinics with nurse practitioners and a private examining room. At Walgreens the pharmacist is the person giving you the vaccine.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-22-12 8:19 PM
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