Re: Creepshots and Privacy

1

I tend to be pretty suspicious of claims about what these kids today are up to, but I do think it's clear that (1) people sure have a lot more naked photos of themselves these days, and (2) it's really easy to duplicate and distribute those photos.

I don't think any naked photos of me exist. I did a naked music video with my band a few years ago, but most of my parts were covered by a guitar for most of it, and I don't think the person who has that file would do anything with it. OR WOULD HE? If he did, I would.... come off as someone who was pretty cool but probably drank too much that summer, I guess?


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 7:40 AM
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me and your grandma read The Week

That would be my mom, actually. Though she is a grandma.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 7:46 AM
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This is an area where I think copyright can reasonably be used as a hammer to smash the revenge porn sites. I don't know the details of how things actually work, but ideally images such as nudie shots taken for the purpose of showing one other person (like the ones Scarlett Johanson took for her husband) would be born copyrighted and the revenge porn sites subject to the kind of attacks used by big media companies against pirates. I'm not the least bit sympathetic to Big Media, but if their manipulation of copyright law might be used to protect privacy I'm all for it.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 7:52 AM
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I applaud sneaking around and snooping into politicians' "private" times.

OT: Is it a good sign or a bad one when an executive recruiters (i) asks about your "compensation expectations" and then (ii) interrupts your reply to tell a little story about the other American with whom he spoke who asked for 3x what the client wants to pay?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 7:55 AM
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I keep on thinking that this is going to shake out in a decade or so to where naked pictures getting public is common enough that no one gets embarrassed about it. I may be delusional in thinking that's going to work.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 7:58 AM
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That's the thing about teenagers, though: they have no decade-long memory. I was so embarrassed about my body that I can't imagine any amount of ubiquity making a dent in my mortification.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:00 AM
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And yet now, if I had my teenaged body, I'd be so happy with it I'd never wear clothes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:03 AM
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In ten years or so, you'll have a teenage body. But I bet you'll make sure it puts on clothes every morning.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:04 AM
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That would be my mom, actually. Though she is a grandma.

Everyone is someone's grandma.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:04 AM
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8: Seven years.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:06 AM
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In 20 years you'll think the same about your current body, so you may as well strip now.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:07 AM
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It won't cease to be a teenage body three years later.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:07 AM
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8: Indeed.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:14 AM
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I did a naked music video with my band a few years ago

You obviously don't want to share video, but do you have audio?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:14 AM
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14: No. I mean, I have a demo album we recorded, but I think it's one of those "you had to be there" things.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:19 AM
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My current early 30s body is just a better version of my teenage body. Not an ounce more fat, but a bit more muscle and height. I estimate at current trajectories I'll be an adonis at 60.


Posted by: real ffeJ annaH | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:24 AM
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Everyone is someone's grandma.

Whose grandma are you, Ben?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:26 AM
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Let's everybody post naked pictures of ourselves and see if we can guess each other's incomes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:28 AM
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Having a teenage child with a strong resemblance to oneself does wonders for the ego. Every morning over breakfast I have a visual aid informing me of how much I've changed since my teens. Largely not for the better.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:28 AM
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Let's everybody post naked pictures of ourselves and see if we can guess each other's incomes.

Up to $50k, in inverse relation to size of gut; over $50k, in direct relation.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:34 AM
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20: Really? In the developed world, I would guess it's a montonically decreasing inverse logarithmic function, with an asymptote somewhere around the low six figures. So, people simply get slimmer as they get richer, but with diminishing returns.


Posted by: real ffeJ annaH | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:42 AM
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I keep on thinking that this is going to shake out in a decade or so to where naked pictures getting public is common enough that no one gets embarrassed about it.

Well, this will probably continue to happen much more to women than to men, so misogyny will continue to help drive the embarrassment. (Which in turn will drive misogyny! It's the circle of life.)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 8:54 AM
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So, people simply get slimmer as they get richer, but with diminishing returns.

Very much not true in the UK, where I'd broadly agree with Chris Y's formula as a comic generalisation.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:06 AM
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Speaking of the UK, it's odd to see a society where A) a leading right-wing asshole politician commutes by bike and B) a leading right-wing asshole politician hates police as much as he hates other working-class people.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:11 AM
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Wait, there are topless photos of Kate Middleton somewhere? At this point, the whole royal family should just pose for a big nude photo, perhaps clasically-themed, and just get it over with.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:17 AM
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a leading right-wing asshole politician fails to disguise the fact that he hates police as much as he hates other working-class people.

FTFY


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:17 AM
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I do so much not want to see a nude photo of Philip von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderberg-Glucksberg.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:20 AM
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I keep on thinking that this is going to shake out in a decade or so to where naked pictures getting public is common enough that no one gets embarrassed about it.

I guess I am with LB on this one. Isnt Finland like this? Everyone saunas naked so it isnt a big deal. Or maybe topless beaches. Celebrity sex tapes seem to be everywhere and not a big deal.

Obviously, you are an asshole who deserves mocking if you engage in the spiteful posting of pictures.

Also, I have always assumed that most of these pictures get online due to bad security: hackers seeking to find nude pictures.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:25 AM
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26: No, I think the hero worship for police, firefighters, military is genuine among our politicians.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:25 AM
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23: Hmm. That wasn't my experience at all. I would guess if you went into an ASDA and took the average weight of the shoppers there and compared it to the average weight in Waitrose the former would be significantly heftier.


Posted by: real ffeJ annaH | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:26 AM
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27: Presumably the elder members of the family could preserve their dignity by figleafing themselves with strategically placed corgis.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:26 AM
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The dignity that I would want preserved would be my belly. Forget the junk, please let me keep my belly covered.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:28 AM
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31 made me laugh.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:31 AM
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Laugh and wince for imagined corgi bites.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:31 AM
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In California, the percentage overweight or obese is 50% for those with a household income of less than $5,000 (there's also 6.5% underweight in this group, where the norm is 2%). The percentage jumps up for the $5-10K income group and stays steady at 60% for all those $5-70K, goes down to 53% for $70-135K, and is 49% for all those higher.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:31 AM
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3 -- copyright can help, as can the invasion of privacy torts. But the problem isn't really legality; much (though not all) of this stuff is obviously and unquestionably illegal; obviously stealing a nude photo that was taken by and belongs to someone else and posting it without permission is illegal and I suspect even our friend Trapnel would agree that this should be so. The problem is (a) by the time you get around to suing, the damage is done; (b) most of the people you'd want to sue are judgment proof. These are exactly the problems the DMCA is supposed to address and in fact the DMCA is pretty much your only recourse if you're stuck in this situation.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:32 AM
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No, I think the hero worship for police, firefighters, military is genuine among our politicians.

They've just got a funny way of showing their love, then.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:39 AM
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38

But it's compounded by the young people on a decent trajectory, earning squat in their taut, springy bodies.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:48 AM
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But it's compounded by the young people on a decent trajectory, earning squat in their taut, springy bodies.
They're ... on trampolines?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:51 AM
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36: DMCA was more or less what I was thinking about. I'm not a fan of it but in this instance I think it might be turned to good use.

I think the idea that nude pictures online will be unremarkable in ten years (or some similar timeframe) is wrong. People will start to take better precautions and eventually laws will catch up or legal strategies evolve that make distribution of such images more trouble than it's worth. The proportion of people with nude pictures on the web will remain relatively small. Having nudie pics on the web may become less humiliating and people likely will be more understanding, but it will always be a source of embarrassment and a point of leverage for bullies and assholes.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 10:05 AM
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The proportion of people with nude pictures on the web will remain relatively small.

It could also get class-marked, e.g. as something the lowest and highest classes do, since neither of them can lose anything by it. Us middling bourgeois strivers will still be under perpetual threat to be respectable professional.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 10:10 AM
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42

41 sounds right, or maybe even already true.


Posted by: real ffeJ annaH | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 10:16 AM
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I guess I am with LB on this one. Isnt Finland like this? Everyone saunas naked so it isnt a big deal. Or maybe topless beaches. Celebrity sex tapes seem to be everywhere and not a big deal.

I think this is not a good comparison. In Finland and topless Europe there are no inherent problems of consent. The key for most of these issues is consent to photograph, or consent to distribute once the photo exists.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:07 AM
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Class, age, and whether it was by choice marked. A middle aged UMC person who has some drunken college strip poker photos circulating online won't have much of a problem. The same middle aged person who has recent naked pics posted by an asshole ex will be somewhat embarrassed and pitied. The middle aged exhibitionist who posts stuff on a porn site will be at risk of losing their job.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:09 AM
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43:

understand completely. I was thinking more along the lines that seeing naked people isnt as shocking. A question of degree.

People posting such pictures are assholes. (Although I did post a picture of Heebie's ass with people groping it. AWB, I think. I guess I had consent???)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:13 AM
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44: I don't think the public subconscious impression, or HR pissiness, makes that much distinction. "you should have known that behavior was risky...", etc etc.


Posted by: cleactual | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:19 AM
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But it used to be such a marvelous ass...


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:22 AM
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43 and 45: The context of the photos matters too. A nude photo of someone in a sexualized situtation -- be that engaging in sex acts, or just portraits where the nakedness is sexualized -- is always going to be more compromising than photo of someone who is doing something else (sunbathing, taking a sauna) and happens to be nude.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:25 AM
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Forget the junk, please let me keep my belly covered.

With sufficiently developed manboobs, this should be achievable.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:28 AM
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there are swathes of the US in which there is no nonsexual nudity. Less sexual nudity than I'd think possible, too; I've met 40-year-old mothers who claimed their husbands have never seen them naked.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:28 AM
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You can't grope twice the same ass.


Posted by: Opinionated Heraclitus | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:30 AM
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Blume:

Absolutely. In my practice, lots of people come into my office feeling embarassed and shamed. They feel like everyone is talking about them.

I often try to get them to understand that every family has messed up stuff going on and that nobody cares about your scandal for very long. Attention spans are short.

I think of these kinds of pictures the same way. (I understand that it is easier for a man to think this way, perhaps.)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 11:31 AM
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Also, I have always assumed that most of these pictures get online due to bad security: hackers seeking to find nude pictures.

I doubt it. Jerky people accidentally stumbling on nude pictures, maybe.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 12:17 PM
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Back when a lot of online porn was just photos (~2000?), I randomly stumbled across a nude shot of what was almost certainly of a classmate of mine, in an artistic style.


Posted by: Levi P. Morton | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 12:29 PM
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I randomly stumbled across a nude shot of what was almost certainly of a classmate of mine

I have randomly stumbled across one college acquaintance (from a paid shoot) several years ago and one co-worker (cell phone pictures and video) this year.


Posted by: El Presidente | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 12:45 PM
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Everybody is living life right out of the J. Geils Band songbook.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 12:50 PM
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I've never stumbled across amateur nude photos of anyone, I don't think. Nakedness in person or not at all (it's the artisanal approach).

The last pro pictures I literally stumbled across, as a magazine had been left in a ditch.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:11 PM
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I stumbled on porn pics of an ex a number of years ago, taken non long after we broke up. The pic taker would most likely have been the guy she ended up marrying. Knowing her, I very much doubt that she chose to put them online, though I guess anything is possible.


Posted by: President Washington | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:18 PM
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The naked picture of me that I linked here a while back is all that anybody ever wants to see. Think of the gut as a great defense, will.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:37 PM
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3, 36, 40: not really disagreeing with Halford here, but I'll just make the obvious point that since copyright is held by the maker rather than the subject of photos, only in the case of stolen self-portraits will the copyright-holder also be the one with the violated privacy (right, RH?). No clue what percentage of revenge porn falls under this category. The purposes and concepts of copyright just don't map very well onto the social problem of revenge porn, though, yeah, as Halford says the DMCA can sometimes do something.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:40 PM
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||
Totally off-topic, but hey, Natilo, have you seen this? Straight cis-guy rapper asking folks which side are you on w.r.t. CeCe and transphobia and homophobia and so on.
|>


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:42 PM
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Interesting - the US seems to be a bit of an outlier in not requiring the subject's consent to publish a photograph, just to use it commercially (hence the model release form).


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:46 PM
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I just solicited my cousin to be the sperm donor for my best friend. I feel oddly giddy and excited about facilitating this transaction.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:48 PM
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Will there be pictures?


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:51 PM
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Are you suggesting that they go to Dave&Busters and do one of those photo booths where they predict what your offspring would look like?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:52 PM
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You have to be really good at skeeball to get enough tickets for the home insemination kit at Dave and Busters.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 1:58 PM
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63: I would solicit gametes from two siblings, four cousins, eight second cousins...


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 2:02 PM
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Try looking for The Waltons fan fiction.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 2:03 PM
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Not The Patty Duke Show?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 2:06 PM
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I just solicited my cousin to be the sperm donor for my best friend

Don't tell your friend about it. Just have your cousin jump out from behind the couch and yell SURPRISE!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 2:06 PM
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Sticky confetti everywhere!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 2:07 PM
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The article linked in the OP is pretty demoralizing. What a crap species we turn out to be.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 2:34 PM
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Revenge porn is making my regular porn-enjoyment habits more difficult, as I now no longer trust that the people sending me pics on "social porn" sites are the people themselves.


Posted by: Fran├žois Hollande | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 2:51 PM
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On the subject of creepiness.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 2:54 PM
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tiqqun:Raw Materials for the Theory of the Young Girl introduction, with link to full pdf (long)

"The figure of the Young-Girl is a gazing machine, designed for that purpose."

This would become the fordist compromise, the welfare state, family planning: social-democracy capitalism. And now, submission by work, limited because the worker is still separate from his or her work, has been replaced by integration through subjective and existential conformity, meaning, at root, by consumption.


from being merely formal, Capital's domination has become little by little real*. the commodity society now seeks to find its best supports in the marginalized elements of traditional society themselves - women and youths first, then homosexuals and immigrants.


commodity society can now give an air of emancipation to those that in the past it treated as minorities, who were the most foreign and most spontaneously hostile to commodity society, not having been folded into its dominant norms of integration

*Lacan's Real

At each instant, she affirms herself as the sovereign subject of her reification. All the unquestionable character of her power, all the crushing self-confidence of this blueprint-person, comprised exclusively of the conventions, codes, and representations fleetingly in force, all the authority that the least of her gestures contains -- all that is immediately cross-indexed to her absolute transparency to "society."


and precisely because of her nothingness, each of her judgements has the imperative weight of the whole organization of society -- and she knows it.

tough stuff, but a must-study.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 3:19 PM
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At each instant, she affirms herself as the sovereign subject of her reification.

What, you want to control your image(s) (profile, reputation)*, who gets access, how it is displayed, exchanged, valued?

That, folks, is a commodity. The last stage of Capitalism is when you commodify yourself, and everything you love. And you will have no choice.

*Used to be, your social and hierarchal (patriarchal) community and society controlled your image. You now own it, by your choice. We call that a bargain.

I'm not as good as tiqqun. Terrific fucking stuff.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 3:35 PM
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One last, personal

Walking the dogs...

I meet a lot of people. But when do I keep my eyes to the ground careful about "how I look", both as subject and as object? Who is authoritative out there on the streets?

Not only young girls.

Lots of illegal immigrants around here, and I am also careful how I look at them.

How 'bout you? Who do you make eye-contact with? Who would you not want to catch you in a "gaze?"

It is the servant who dares not look at those who rule.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 3:50 PM
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||
It hurts the rich too, but they won't feel it.
|>


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 5:00 PM
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Isn't the original Brandeis and Warren privacy article almost exactly about ownership of one's likeness (along with other personal information about oneself) vs. what the press and the public can do?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 6:08 PM
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Yes.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 6:10 PM
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Which is to say, the privacy torts are clearly applicable. But good luck trying to use them.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 6:11 PM
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Ok, another question: You wouldn't happen to know of a good article on the context/influence of the Brandeis article, would you? It seems like historians prefer to talk about other aspects of his career and life.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 6:22 PM
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I didn't offhand (I mean, besides the caselaw) but a quick search brings up these articles that look promising.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 7:00 PM
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tiqqun:

The Young-Girl at all times remains ferociously the owner of her body.

The first skill the Young-Girl learns: to organize her own rarity.

Rest, for the Young-Girl, means knowing exactly what she's worth.

The Young-Girl relates to herself like she does to all the commodities she surrounds herself with.

The Young-Girl is the most authoritarian commodity in the whole world of authoritarian commodities, the one that can never be possessed, but instead polices you and can at any time be taken away from you.

The Young-Girl is the commodity that claims to sovereignly desire her acquirer.

The Young-Girl feels as if she were with family when she's among commodities, all of which are her sisters.

The absolute triumph of the Young-Girl reveals that sociality is now the most precious and prized of commodities.

Part of the work and fun of the tiqqun is understanding that the apparent repellent misogyny, and maybe all misogyny, can only be a hatred of the role. Or a dialectical hatred between two roles.

Don't take it personally.

Yes, I love Love, Actually.

What are the upskirt photos? Is that photo you? A part of you? Something that belongs to you? Trust me, the guys didn't care who you were. Oh wait, is the problem that they didn't care who you were?

But sociality is now the most prized of commodities, so I too am outraged at the violations and truly wish women weren't hurt this way.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 7:23 PM
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83: Thanks for indulging my laziness. Those do look interesting.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-25-12 9:21 PM
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