Re: Lullaby

1

I would rather fall asleep listening to a screaming baby.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:15 AM
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A Ferberizer, eh?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:16 AM
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I would rather leave a rapist for the baby-sitter in my child's bed.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:17 AM
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Rush Limbaugh has a nice voice. I could see it being quite soothing to someone who could block out the words. Perhaps your friend has found a similarly euphonious voice to listen to. I assume Limbaugh is on during the day but maybe it's the man himself.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:19 AM
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I wish I could turn voices into white noise. I can't help paying attention even to conversations on the bus.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:28 AM
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I'm like that also. I can't not listen to a voice unless it's singing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:30 AM
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1: A Glenn Beck fan, eh?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:38 AM
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I would rather fall asleep listening to a screaming baby.

Screaming babies make more cogent arguments.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:42 AM
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5,6: Likewise. I even have difficulty enjoying a song if I can't make out the lyrics.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:44 AM
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When I've got insomnia, the one thing I've found to help is listening to TV (with my eyes closed), especially reruns of sitcoms that I've seen enough that I can more or less see what's going on in my head.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:46 AM
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I think it turns off the talky part of my brain and turns on the visual part of my brain, which is what I need to drift off.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:46 AM
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I tune in to rightwing radio when I'm driving and feeling drowsy. Rush Limbaugh may well have saved my life.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:48 AM
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I could make that work. I like listening to people talking when I'm falling asleep.

My favorite thing is to fall asleep listening to Sci-Fi television shows, though. Except for the ones that frequently involve warning sounds and screaming. Star Trek: The Next Generation is the best so far and Star Trek Enterprise is a close second. Farscape is awful because the characters are too screechy.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:50 AM
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13: If you weren't already married I would have suggested marrying a boring man.

A boring man with sound political views! I'm worried about heebie's friend being gradually brainwashed.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:54 AM
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If you weren't already married I would have suggested marrying a boring man.

Maybe she did!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:04 AM
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16

When I was in graduate school, I would use the movie "Elizabeth" as my lullaby. "I am no man's Elizabeth!"


Posted by: Klug | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:05 AM
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Farscape is awful because the characters are too screechy.

FTFY. Though Ben Browder facilitates the falling asleep process in another way.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:07 AM
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14, 15: I think I've joked before that I was having trouble sleeping so he should start talking. He certainly has the capacity to talk for a long time, but it's usually interesting.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:07 AM
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Based on my experience of long periods in listening posts, I find it easiest to fall asleep when fully dressed, wearing body armor, helmet, webbing and rifle, lying in a muddy hole in the ground. Out like a light. In a comfortable bed indoors in a darkened room, though, it takes ages.


Posted by: Jacob Greene | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:08 AM
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17: Agreed. Farscape really is terrible. I think my husband only hung in there because of the dearth of Sci-Fi options.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:12 AM
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19: Maybe you could just wear the body armor in a bed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:13 AM
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I fall asleep pretty much instantly when I get in bed. However, I generally don't get into bed until I start nodding off in front of the computer or TV, so that may skew my results.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:15 AM
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23

Also you sleep three hours every four days, and yet feel well-rested.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:18 AM
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I need 7 hours a night to be well-rested. I'm not well-rested very often.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:31 AM
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I've been having insomnia problems for the first time in my (non-pregnant) life since the beginning of the summer. I go to sleep fairly easily, but more nights than not I'm awake for anywhere from one to three hours in the middle of the night. It's driving me nuts: I'm tired all the time and the not-sleeping is unpleasant in itself. If I were contentedly wide awake I'd just read or something, but I'm exhausted and uncomfortable, just awake.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:35 AM
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Also you sleep three hours every four days, and yet feeltake enough caffeine to kill a horse, and probably don't remember what well-rested feels like.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:35 AM
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Except for the ones that frequently involve warning sounds and screaming. Star Trek: The Next Generation is the best so far

What?! The TNG crew are always having some kind of crisis with sirens going off and Riker shouting "Rrrrredalert!"


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:48 AM
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Rush Limbaugh has a nice voice.

No, he does not. His voice is jowly: i.e., he combines "Kermit the Frog/Ray Romano throaty" with "Fran Drescher nasal."

I speculate that male announcers and narrators get away with worse voices than women because of sexism or privilege or Bain Capital or something people, especially older people, tend to prefer lower registers.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:48 AM
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29

I've gotten enough sleep for 3 nights in a row and it's a fucking revelation.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:56 AM
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30

When I'm insomniac, what puts me to sleep fairly reliably are Crooked Timber threads.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:56 AM
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31

I sacrifice a lot more to get a full nights sleep than I used to.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:57 AM
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32

Goats, or what?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:58 AM
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Christian babies.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:59 AM
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OT: According to one of the many thousands of magazines documenting new fall fashions and new hair treatments for autumn suddenly carpeting Schloss Flippanter a recent periodical, Marc Jacobs wears a kilt every day. God send it is not a Utilikilt.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:01 AM
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Ah, nibbling on a nice matzoh puts you to sleep.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:01 AM
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I never did figure out why matzoh isn't tinged red.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:11 AM
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37

My mother-in-law, who does not speak English at all, once asked me to explain something complicated in English, to help her fall asleep. It's nice to have a talent.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:12 AM
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38

Did you choose a legal topic?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:15 AM
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39

||

NMM2 Herbert Lom

|>


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:21 AM
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40

Also, while I'm bitching about things, I had a half-bottle of wine with dinner last night, and woke up with a fullblown hangover: headache, nausea, longing for death. I think I'm going to have to give up having a second drink, pretty much ever, if I don't want that to happen. Which I don't.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:21 AM
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My mother-in-law, who does not speak English at all, once asked me to explain something complicated in English, to help her fall asleep.

A friend often asks me to explain the Rule Against Perpetuities on long hiking trips. I'm thinking of throwing in the odd dragon or lost civilization to see if anyone notices.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:27 AM
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42

The fertile octogenarian isn't entertaining enough?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:29 AM
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43

The Winters doctrine generally, and it's role in the general adjudication of water rights on the Upper Yellowstone.

I should probably set up a 900 number; even at my standard hourly rate, I may be able to knock down insomnia in a fairly cost effective manner.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:30 AM
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44

He's not entertaining. She did him for the money.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:30 AM
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45

(I think I missed that one on the bar. Or maybe it was the unborn widow. I forget. I should advertise this, and maybe someone who looks like Kathleen Turner did 30 years ago will hire me.)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:32 AM
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46

The fertile octogenarian isn't entertaining enough?

Anthony Quinn was certainly entertaining.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:32 AM
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47

Did you know, Megan, that the guy's name was actually Winter, no s? The clerk messed it up. And actually the lead plaintiff was Anderson, but he dropped out rather than go to the Sup Ct.

Anyone nodding yet?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:34 AM
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I think I've said this before, but on long car trips, we used to beg my Dad to get into a long explanation of pretty much anything. Our two favorite storied were How a Car Engine Works and Watergate. It didn't put us to sleep, though.

I didn't know that about Winter. I'm not sure I know the Doctrine. You aren't talking about something that happens east of the Sierras, are you?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:41 AM
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I had a half-bottle of wine with dinner last night, and woke up with a fullblown hangover: headache, nausea, longing for death. I think I'm going to have to give up having a second drink, pretty much ever, if I don't want that to happen. Which I don't.

Have you tried drinking more water before, after, and in between alcoholic drinks?

It's shocking what a difference that makes, if it's not something you're doing.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:42 AM
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50

Nobody can get any sleep, there's someone on everybody's toes
But when Quinn the Eskimo gets here, everybody's gonna doze


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:43 AM
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51

I had about a quart of seltzer in the middle of the night, but it didn't help.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:45 AM
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52

But have you tried drinking more?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:51 AM
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53

You know what just bowls me over? The new Obama 47% ad. Or, more precisely, the reaction to it. Everyone is like, "This ad is so brutal". Taegan Goddard says the ad is "in contention for the most-devastating of the presidential campaign". And yet all the ad does is present Romney's own words in his own voice and on the screen, superimposed over some photos representing the 47%. The photos aren't even especially emotionally manipulative (the picture of the two veterans comes closest). It's just pictures of people who look like your neighbors, and Romney's words. That qualifies as "brutal".

I'm not disagreeing with the assessment, I'm just flabbergasted by the whole thing.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:53 AM
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54

I have not tried drinking more water than I have drunk. I believe I can say that with assurance.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:54 AM
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55

Well, then that might be your problem.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:55 AM
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40: It may have just been something in that bottle. Try again with some other type of booze.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:55 AM
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57

My other suggestion is more caffeine.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:59 AM
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58

I know you have Winters rights in California, because it's a US Supreme Court case, and because I worked on a matter 15+ years ago that involved Winters rights in California. (I can't be more specific about it.)

When Congress sets aside lands for a particular purpose -- Indian reservation, National Forest/Park/Monument, etc. -- it reserves, as of that date, sufficient water to accomplish all purposes of the reservation, and these rights fit, with those dates, into a state's water rights priority system. The Ninth Circuit's Walton case adds a very interesting twist, that concerns lands that were reserved, but later pass into fee ownership (say through allotment). And these rights aren't established, like normal water rights, by use, but sit inchoate until they become useful.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:59 AM
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59

But the caffeine is for cure, not prevention.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:59 AM
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60

Dude you can explain the rule against perpetuities in 5 minutes. It's one of the few things in law that's not hard and that produces clear answers, which is why it shows up on tests. The fiction of its incredible difficulty and inscrubility is based on a bunch of weak ass 1Ls.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:00 AM
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Lashings of B vitamins? My college drugs handbook recommended that for everything, I think.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:00 AM
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It's generally agreed that if just keep at it, eventually you will get used to it, and soon you'll find that you don't feel right if you haven't had a bottle or two of wine.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:01 AM
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Also: does wine give you worse problems with hangovers than other alcohol? It seems to have that effect on a lot of people. Something to do with sulfites.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:01 AM
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64

Now, what Carp is talking about, that's fucking hard.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:01 AM
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65

Calming manatee is surprisingly soothing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:02 AM
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65: This was very upsetting because it said my obsolete browser was killing manatees. Oh, no!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:11 AM
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27: I think it's all relative. TNG has a lot of warnings and yelling, but not nearly as much as other shows. It might also be that I've watched the episodes so many times that it can't bother me anymore.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:14 AM
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53: I think the offshoring ad with Romney singing the national anthem is more brutal (in a good way).


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:16 AM
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66: Me too. To be fair to the manatees, I'm using IE8.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:18 AM
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It should be the national anthem. But isn't. Thanks, Baltimore.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:24 AM
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53: I'm just flabbergasted by the whole thing

So many things are flabbergasting these days. I just spent an hour more than I should have reviewing the reactions (at Crooked Timber, LGM, Jim Henley's place) to Conor Friedersdorf's post claiming that it's immoral to vote for Obama, because of drone strikes.

That Conor is an excellent troll.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:28 AM
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68: Yo, that's brutal all right. But the America the Beautiful ad is brutal in a classic sort way for an attack ad: unflattering footage of opponent, damaging accusations, inflammatory words, sly superposition of media logos to substantiate the claims, unmistakeable overtone of ridicule. It's hardly the harshest example of the genre, but it is of the genre, and draws on a shopworn toolkit. The 47% ad is different: more understated, less in tune with attack ad tropes.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:29 AM
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68: I thought that was kind of unfair. So, Romney can't sing. It's not nice for Obama to tease him about it.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:32 AM
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It should be the national anthem. But isn't. Thanks, Baltimore.

Someone once ran that at me in parliamentary debate. It's a tough case to oppose, because the Star Spangled Banner is pretty much indefensible as a national anthem, but we prevailed. The venue being some godless pinko northeastern liberal arts college, I think the secularist argument (i.e. nix to "God shed his grace on thee) rather than the Burkean argument must have carried the day.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:37 AM
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You'd think a real pinko would have decried the narrow terms of the debate and argued for "This Land Is Your Land."


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 1:43 PM
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You'd think a real pinko would have decried the narrow terms of the debate and argued for "This Land Is Your Land."

That's a risky strategy under the rules of parliamentary debate. The burden of persuasion is on the government who introduces the case (here, the proposal to change the national anthem). If the opposition rebuts the government's case, it wins a tie. The opposition is free to introduce a countercase (a mutually exclusive alternative to the government's case which is also not status quo), but then it has to prove the superiority of its alternative to the government's case. This is usually (though not always) more difficult.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 1:58 PM
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Jonathan Chait picks up a subliminal message in the 47% ad:

What's devastating about the ad, aside from the juxtaposition of Romney's words against photos of regular Americans, is something I only noticed the second time I watched it. It's the sound of silverware clinking on china in the background as Romney speaks. That detail contrasts the atmosphere Romney inhabits with the one in which most Americans live. You can tell, even though you're not seeing this, that the remarks are being made to people enjoying a formal dinner.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:05 PM
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78

|| NMM to Johnny Depp!


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:08 PM
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|| Wait, sorry, false alarm. NMM to Johnny Lewis. I don't even know who that issue. You may resume masturbation to Johnny Depp.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:12 PM
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80

Jesus Christ, Urple.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:13 PM
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81

78: I know he hasn't been picking the best parts but that seems a little harsh.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:13 PM
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82

Nice one.

OMG YOU GUYS AN ACTOR NAMED JOHN DIED.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:15 PM
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83

Wrong on the Civil War. Wrong on actors named John. Wrong for America.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:16 PM
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84

NMM to John Silber either, but come on, nobody was.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:16 PM
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85

78, 79: Dude, a girl could get whiplash stopping and starting like that.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:18 PM
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84: Only in gender-segregated dorms with parietals.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:18 PM
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87

To be clear, I was just passing on misinformation I received, not generating new misinformation.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:19 PM
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88

Lewis seems to have died after killing his landlady. The creator of his TV show said, "Yes, it's day of mourning, but it's also a day of awareness and gratitude. Sadly, some of us carry the message by dying." I'm not exactly sure what the message is. Don't kill your landlady, I suppose.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:20 PM
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89

Don't forget the whole dinosaur thing. I suppose that's settled now, too.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:21 PM
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90

I suppose I should cut down on supposing.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:22 PM
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91

There is also NMM to a certain crew member who was on the set of Johnny Depp's "The Lone Ranger", which apparently was somehow part of the source of the confusion.

(Although, re the crew member: it's okay to masturbate to dead people if they weren't famous, right? It's just creepy to masturbate to dead celebrities.)


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:27 PM
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92

Masturbating to the dead inspires only feelings of hopelessness and despair.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:34 PM
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93

So does masturbating to the living.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:36 PM
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94

The dilemma established by 92 and 93 seems to explain the popularity of the sexy vampire trope.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 2:47 PM
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Only in gender-segregated dorms with parietals.

As Brigitte Fontaine would have sung if she sang in English,

With my hair on it's easy, it's something I can hide behind,

I like what is not easy, love me for the bald kind,

I want to be loved for my skull, my little parietal bone,

I want the men to go crazy for my charming occipital bone


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:03 PM
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96

This one is pretty good.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:04 PM
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97

oops, fixed link


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:05 PM
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98

||

Not sure what this says about the partisan divide.

|>


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:15 PM
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||

The one thing Yglesias is still a reliable commenter on is monetary policy. He's good on this totally shocking speech by the Philly Fed president. What Plosser is saying is that the Great Depression is preferable to a tiny uptick in inflation. Plosser is an evil man, but since he's a technocrat who uses technocrat-speak, the fact that he holds a powerful quasi-governmental position gets no attention.

|>


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:16 PM
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||
Annals of the Working Poor:

My friend, the one who lost her baby, has been desperately trying to better herself and pick up some job skills so that she doesn't have to live with her deadbeat, psycho parents anymore. So she had some online test to do today, because she couldn't afford the certification class. She found childcare, bussed to the library, did the test...and couldn't print out the certificate because the library's printer didn't interface with the test software somehow. Also, she had to beg people for months before she found someone who would teach her to drive. She's not even trying to get food stamps anymore, as the jackasses at the county just gave her the runaround for 4 or 5 months until she collapsed in frustration. She can't do real school, as she has some relatively small student loans that went into default when her life started going to shit a few years ago. This country is so fucked.
||>


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:20 PM
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101

98: If they had Surly on there, it would be in the opposite position to Busch Lite.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:22 PM
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102

'Tis now the very OTing shaft of mine.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:30 PM
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103

Oh man, sleep. I know this is a bog-standard new parent experience, but I don't think I've gotten more than five hours of sleep at a time since June. I very much look forward to..... something.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:33 PM
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104

I'd like to see how Clothing Optional compares to Fresh Bongwater.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:35 PM
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105

it's okay to masturbate to dead people if they weren't famous, right?

Your grandmother is fair game, urple.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:46 PM
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106

I don't think I've gotten more than five hours of sleep at a time since June

If you get kids like my two youngest, and space them out just right, you can stretch that experience out for at least four years.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 3:48 PM
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107

I'd like to see how Clothing Optional compares to Fresh Bongwater.

I don't think either would make a good national anthem.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 4:03 PM
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108

O beautiful for naked guys...


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 4:05 PM
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109

Sympathies for your friend, Natilo.

Those sound like the sorts of predictable problems that come up all the time and are convincingly horrible if you have no leverage to convince anybody to be accommodating.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 4:05 PM
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||
Very sad stuff follows.
Yesterday or maybe this morning a grave was dug for a baby not yet born.
My sister-in-law's sister, and her husband, have been trying to have a child for several years. She suffers from PCOS so it's been difficult, and there's been at least one miscarriage. This pregnancy went ok though and she was due to deliver In a few days. They've been so excited, and they had the house all ready.
Something happened, I don't know what yet, but they found out the baby was dead. She still had to go ahead with he labour. She was induced at 6pm Wednesday evening and it went on for more than 24 hours.
I know it's over now, because my sister-in-law texted me a little while ago, with two words - the beautiful names the parents chose for their daughter. |>


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 4:36 PM
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111

My son was stillborn in April. They're in for a very rough time. Do you want practical advice or not yet?

Also, condolences. You also lost a young one in your family. I'm sorry.


Posted by: anon for this one | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 4:41 PM
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112

Wow, I'm so sorry.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 4:54 PM
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113

That's really awful e. You too a.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 5:37 PM
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114

I'm so sorry for both families and their griefs.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 5:38 PM
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Oh no, how awful. I'm so sorry.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 5:51 PM
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How awful for you both, and for everyone involved. I am so sorry.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 6:13 PM
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Condolences.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 6:49 PM
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Emir, how awful. I'm so sorry.

Anon, I am sorry for your loss.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 7:09 PM
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My sister-in-law's sister

I'm sure it's just a failure of imagination but I'm having a hard time understanding how this wouldn't just be your sister-in-law. A spouse's sister's sister is also a spouse's sister, no?

Anyway, condolences.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 7:20 PM
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I have a sister in law's sister. My brother's wife's sister.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 7:22 PM
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Oh, I wasn't considering the possibility of siblings.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 7:24 PM
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Oh my goodness, I am so very sorry for the loss in e's family.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 7:32 PM
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111: Anon, I am very, very sorry.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 7:38 PM
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Condolences to emir & her family and to anon. So sad.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:20 PM
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Anon, sorry for your loss which must be still very raw. Feel free to shoot with the practical advice - I don't see this couple all that often but am very fond of them, I see a lot of my sister-in-law and will mention stuff to her. I know they are having a funeral tomorrow some time, I will be babysitting my nieces.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:47 AM
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Practical advice for a stillborn. I wouldn't presume to offer advice on grief, because people are different. It sounds like the funeral arrangements are made, so I won't offer advice on that, either (infant cremations are hundreds of dollars cheaper, so it is worth being specific about the stillbirth). But I will mention two things.

The widely suggested book on stillbirths is Empty Cradle, Broken Heart. It is very good. The sooner they get a copy, the better.

By now she may be becoming aware. I was startled a day later when my milk started coming in. The internet and everyone says to use cabbage leaves in a tight sports bra. I felt ridiculous and couldn't tell if it was working, but it felt good when they were cool. She will also need a couple good sports-quality cold/ice packs. In addition to the cabbage, my midwives (who didn't deliver my son and had nothing to do with his death, but whom I had engaged before things went wrong) said to take Benadryl (diphenhydramine) which works by drying up all bodily fluids. So I took the maximum daily dose of that. The internet says it varies, but I was worst at about five days in and it was mostly done within two weeks.

A care package if you are arriving early is: a cabbage, two or three good cold packs, Benadryl, and the book Empty Cradle, Broken Heart. After two days, she'll have figured out the first part because she'll have to.


Posted by: Anon for this one | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:41 AM
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I am mostly OK now. We went to a counselor right away, and now there is only occasional sadness. Seeing pregnant women sucked for several months and they're everywhere, flaunting their innocence.

The thing I haven't figured out is how to answer the question of whether I have children. Yes, I birthed a son? No, I didn't actually get to keep him? It gets awkward.

From reading the stillbirth pages (which I don't recommend), I learned the etiquette is to wish parents who've had a stillbirth a happy Mothers or Fathers Day. When that did come about, I was pleased, so I'd say to go with that.


Posted by: Anon for this one | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:52 AM
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Emir and Afto: Very sorry to hear of your losses. My friends' experiences are probably not all that applicable, as the whole bohemian/anarchist thing tends to overdetermine a lot of stuff. Also, different countries, etc. It's such an awful, awful thing. I hope that everyone involved can find solace in community and family. I'm still very sad about my friend's baby, and we're coming up on two years since he died, and also on her daughter's first birthday, which will obviously be emotionally fraught.

Love & solidarity,
Natilo


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:24 AM
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Al's life and times remind me of the descriptions in this book review
http://rushthatspeaks.livejournal.com/453410.html
"as though someone has forcibly chained Tennessee Williams to a writing desk and informed him that he is to write Love Story. It is a fusion of the Southern Gothic with the Big Fat Seventies And Eighties Epic Novel, you know, from the people who brought you Shogun; a book that is meant to keep you more entertained than any other seventeen books by being as long as all of them put together and also by having the entirety of their content, pureed"


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:01 AM
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The thing I haven't figured out is how to answer the question of whether I have children. Yes, I birthed a son? No, I didn't actually get to keep him? It gets awkward.

That does sound tricky to navigate. Unsurprisingly, I'm super keyed up over your story, although I don't have much to add besides condolences. I'm trying to say that if you feel like sharing more, I'd like to hear it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:04 AM
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I'm fine with talking about it (like I said, I did a ton of processing as it went along) and there are interesting facets to it, but losing a child is a hard thing to bring up in general conversation. If you have questions, ask. They won't disturb me.

At 32 weeks we got a diagnosis of "massive hydrocephalus" which catapulted us into late abortion land. There are now only two facilities in the country that will end the baby's life and deliver the baby. They cost $25,000 or $40,000 up front and it takes a five-day stay. They wouldn't take me, because the hydrocephalus and baby's position indicated a complicated birth and they don't have the medical resources for a complicated birth. They were willing to inject the baby with a drug that stopped its heart for $8,000. Then we could fly home and the hospital would deliver him. (The hospital does those shots routinely up to 24 weeks, but won't after that "because a nurse might complain to the press", necessitating one of the two places in the country that will.) After resting at home a day, we went to the hospital to induce the birth (uncomplicated breech delivery in the end). Three days later we came home alone. (Got awful news on Monday, flew to another state on Tuesday, got the shot on Wed and flew home, rested Thursday, went to the hospital Friday, delivered Sunday.)

It took a couple months to stop crying daily. Now it is more of a terrible thing that happened and a sharp reminder that the "War on Women" has brutal effects on people. It could have been worse. There could have been nowhere left that would do the late term abortion for any money. We could have been forced to bear a profoundly hydrocephalic son.


Posted by: anon for this one | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:58 AM
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I mention the money to illustrate that the two place that do exist are barely accessible and that our system has become shockingly punitive even for people with it. We could scrounge together $8000 on a day's notice, and another $1700 for the flights. But I can make myself cry by thinking of someone could could almost afford it but not quite for two tickets and had to go by herself.


Posted by: anon for this one | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:08 AM
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Holy cow. That is brutal. Especially having to go through so many extensive medical motions after receiving the diagnosis. (Again, I'm so sorry.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:20 AM
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131. I'm so, so sorry.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:21 AM
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131: That is terrible. I'm sorry.

And the accessibility issues will make me quake with rage if I think too much about it. Was the $8000 because they required the money up front? Were you able to get that reimbursed by insurance later? I am curious what the insurance considers necessary and will cover in such a situation.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:33 AM
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The $8000 was the cost for the shot alone. The shot and delivering the baby would have been $40,000 (five day stay at the clinic, inducing and delivering. But they only take births they believe will be straightforward, so they wouldn't take us for that. Which is fine, we were happier being closer to home, once we worked out a way.). We had to pay the money up front, but a couple months later we got $2400 back, with a letter saying that's all the insurance would pay for an "out of network" service. I got the hospital to write a letter saying that there are zero "in network" providers for that service, and another couple months later I got another $1600 back.

The bills for the hospital stay to deliver the baby came later.

For what little is it worth, my insurance policy is considered very good.


Posted by: anon for this one | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:48 AM
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The amounts seem exorbitant, but I don't know that I can criticize the clinic. Everyone there was kind and compassionate. A counselor accompanied us for as much of the day as we wanted. There were doctors and multiple nurses in the room. But my guess is that security and their own insurance is incredibly expensive for them. All their glass was bulletproof. Clinics like that really do get bombed.

All that for a shot that my regular hospital gives "routinely" up to 24 weeks, in the sad times that it is needed.


Posted by: anon for this one | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:56 AM
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Sigh. It is all very enraging. Similar to my other friend's story, who was forced to bear her daughter to term, despite 0% viability. I don't know enough details about how the decisions were made, but certainly she and her partner could not have afforded even $25,000, much less $40K.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:05 AM
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afto, I'm so sorry for your loss. A friend of mine had a similar sad situation, but she wasn't able to afford to fly out of state and she was uncomfortable with the idea of a D& C for closure reasons anyway, so she had to wait for the pregnancy to end naturally. It did a week later,and It took her five years to be able to talk about it.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:22 AM
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It has been a bit surprising, the number of people who have had similar losses or who immediately said, yes, [a family member] always said she had three children and two of them lived.

I don't think people share these losses much and of the ones I heard before this, I heard more about miscarriages than stillbirths. But when there was reason to tell, there were many stories of stillbirths.

Not surprisingly, I absolutely love stories of people who came back from stillbirths to have healthy children.


Posted by: anon for this one | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:37 AM
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I can tell you that. My friend has a son who is two years younger than her stillborn daughter would have been. He's healthy and happy and ridiculously cute.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:45 AM
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What a great story!


Posted by: anon for this one | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:50 AM
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I'm so sorry anon and emir and whoever else in this thread experienced similar loss but I just can't bear to read the rest of it to find out who.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:08 PM
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I know my mom miscarried between my older sister and me, but I actually know none of the details except for the story of how they went on a family vacation afterwards and my 3-y.o. sister would cheerfully tell strangers, "my mommy had a baby in her belly but it died."

I have a feeling that was the entirety of what they were willing/able to say about it. I should ask my sister if she knows anything more.

Needless to say, all my sympathies to e and a.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:38 PM
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My sympathies to you both (and Natilo's friend). And the details of cost/accessibility really are important to know, and rage-inducing. Arrrgh.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:20 PM
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I didn't read this thread at the time. Sorry for your family's loss emir, and so sorry about your son, anon. You're so right about it not being talked about, and then something happens and all these stories come out.

My friends' son was born in April 2010 and died 11 days later. She got pregnant again shortly after his first anniversary and they have a lovely 8 month old baby boy now. And the endless dilemma of how to answer the how many children question.

There's a website/community called Glow In The Woods - I'm not sure it would be to my taste, but my friend has found it very supportive and useful.

Actually, if you want another story - another friend's sister got pregnant through ivf, and then they found that the baby had anencephaly. Took them s few weeks to decide what to do,, but they had time. She had (ivf) twin girls in the summer, all fine and healthy.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:54 PM
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