Re: I'm too good for this world

1

"Either"? I only see one ring.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:14 PM
horizontal rule
2

Yeah the image is cut off. You can see both if you View the Image. Hang on and I'll scale it down and upload it afresh.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:17 PM
horizontal rule
3

There we go.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
4

If you buy your fiancée a really nice ring, you aren't guaranteeing a long term wifehood if she's economically rational. She could just take the ring a run.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
5

Maybe the rings are that ugly because they are big enough for a GPS tracker and that's how he wants you to keep your wife? 24 hour monitoring.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:24 PM
horizontal rule
6

4: Yeah, in addition to the grossness of the idea, it doesn't actually seem to make any sense.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:24 PM
horizontal rule
7

Maybe it's supposed to represent a promise of more rings to come, or to be some kind of costly signal of your devotion.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:28 PM
horizontal rule
8

An alternative but less self-centered title for this post could have been "if you like it then you should continually put rings on it."


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:29 PM
horizontal rule
9

If you want "wife insurance," it would seem to me what you want is a way for her to signal her devotion. Maybe wearing an unattractive ring is that sort of signal on her part.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:31 PM
horizontal rule
10

Presumably, the insurance is for her.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:36 PM
horizontal rule
11

That is, the ring is insurance against losing her status as wife.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:38 PM
horizontal rule
12

Because the husband wouldn't let the investment represented by the ring just walk off?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:39 PM
horizontal rule
13

Excuse me, how heteronormative. The other spouse.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:39 PM
horizontal rule
14

That's why there are two rings. Hello bigamy.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:47 PM
horizontal rule
15

Bigamy's just another word for a diversified investment portfolio.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:54 PM
horizontal rule
16

12: No, this is wife insurance. You're thinking more like the bail bonds of marriage.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:55 PM
horizontal rule
17

I love you.
You love me.
I've a secret family.


Posted by: Opinionated Barney | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
18

I'm not sure how this insurance is supposed to work, Eggplant.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:00 PM
horizontal rule
19

It's odd that there have been no female commenters in this thread so far.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
20

Have you tried promising them jewelry?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:07 PM
horizontal rule
21

I have not.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:08 PM
horizontal rule
22

I'm on the case.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:08 PM
horizontal rule
23

Well, I guess I'm writing in Nader.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
24

The ring is the payout you get upon divorce. If your ex is nice. Pretty crappy return, really, unless gold goes up enough.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
25

23: Jesus Christ my personal Lord and Savior from hell? That's not where I heard he was from.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:24 PM
horizontal rule
26

24: Gold's currently at $1777.60 an ounce. How much does a ring weigh?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:28 PM
horizontal rule
27

The ring's weight should be in direct proportion with the perceived risk of the marriage.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:32 PM
horizontal rule
28

The ring's weight should be in direct proportion with the perceived risk of the marriage.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:32 PM
horizontal rule
29

But I repeat myself.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:33 PM
horizontal rule
30

Oh my god. I was just talking about this very ad, and how crude it is, even by diamond jewelry ad standards. There's another one too, from the same store. I can't remember the exact wording, something like, "does your daughter in law have a bigger diamond than your wife?" Really weird and gross.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:45 PM
horizontal rule
31

+ - -


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 9:45 PM
horizontal rule
32

(I think I've told this story here before, but I can't find it in TFA.)

I told Mrs. K-sky that, because I'm a feminist, she would have to get me an engagement ring as well. After I presented her with a ring, she pointed out rings to me to see what I liked. I didn't like any of them. So she bought me a bag of hand percussion instruments, which I cherish.

Her sister's a gemologist, so a) there was no getting around ponying up for a rock, and b) I have a guy, if you need a rock.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 10:46 PM
horizontal rule
33

I GOT A ROCK.


Posted by: OPINIONATED CHARLIE BROWN | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:00 PM
horizontal rule
34

Does anyone ever really need a rock?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:07 PM
horizontal rule
35

If you buy your fiancée a really nice ring, you aren't guaranteeing a long term wifehood if she's economically rational. She could just take the ring a run.

Those are some entertaining "theft" calls. "My ex refuses to return the ring I paid for and I'd like to press charges for theft." Me: "Maybe you're an asshole, maybe she's a whore, but the only thing for certain here is that the police don't care. Piss off."


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:08 PM
horizontal rule
36

Does anyone ever really need a rock?

YES, MOTHERFUCKER.


Posted by: OPINIONATED CRACKHEAD | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:09 PM
horizontal rule
37

Very well then.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:11 PM
horizontal rule
38

opinion in the family about my brother's latest long-term gf has wavered over time, lately (ha I say lately, like in the last 18 months) taking a precipitous dive, and her seeming passive aggressive insistence (communicated via my sister) that her ring be bigger that evil first wife's ring has been the final straw. it turns out I was slightly wrong so it wouldn't have to be 5 carats but still like 4.5. FUCK NO. at least evil first wife had a 1/4 share in $100 million waiting down the road, this can make up for some annoying flaws; miss fried dough montana is e'en now being supported by my brother in every regard, which at the moment includes a sweet-ass apartment in downtown philly with a fireplace and money to go to massage therapy school. I expect a lot of free massages. but she hates us! me and my sister. rightly, I guess. she's always intimating there's something untoward about our sibling love. and suggesting she draws our brother out into sophie's choice hypotheticals about us all the time. like, "if you could only save one of them..etc."


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:15 PM
horizontal rule
39

OK, since I am probably my worst self on unfogged, I'll just go on ahead here. if she expects a huge ring like that she better start looking good. what's she bringing to this enterprise? it ain't a sunny disposition. those better be the best blowjobs in the fucking world but even stipulating that they are, she needs to lose weight and get back to looking hot. that's her thing. her asset, if you will. and why's she in philly with this massage school bullshit? if my brother wants to live in some crazy camper in west virginia while he builds his own cabin by hand, in the winter, and/or watches a honey boo boo marathon and gets brutally stoned, she should be right out there with him. what you see is what you get. when I hire someone to take photos of her cheating on him in the expensive apartment he's renting for her he's going to hate me, right? that doesn't seem fair. I'm giving her 6-8 weeks. my husband says "he'll just be mad at you, it's not worth it, it's his life." all this rational stuff. fucking rational fucking bullshit.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:24 PM
horizontal rule
40

Jesus, if she's insisting on that size a ring there should be free massages that include oral. If they don't then and he's already forking out that kind of money then maybe you could suggest the following site.

http://www.seekingarrangement.com/


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:25 PM
horizontal rule
41

HAHA, 40 before seeing 39.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:25 PM
horizontal rule
42

Rich people have weird problems.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:29 PM
horizontal rule
43

That said, it's nice to see you around, al.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:30 PM
horizontal rule
44

Teo, hooking up with crazy bitches is a problem for every class. Are you sober on a Thursday night? I feel like maybe you haven't fully embraced the "single in Alaska" experience yet. Have you even caught a halibut or shot a moose yet? Get on it.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:33 PM
horizontal rule
45

Dealing with demands for 4.5-carat diamond rings seems like more of a rich-person problem. And I am definitely not sober right now, but I have also not caught a halibut or shot a moose. Make of that what you will.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-27-12 11:36 PM
horizontal rule
46

OK, yes, very obviously a rich person problem as stated, but just imagine someone is not treating your little brother right and she's asking for money left right an' center? I mean, she's got her own bank account, and money shows up in it, and that's because my brother transferred money in there! there are no other sources of money, whence money might just appear in there. no shame, OK, but if you play it like that you have to be hot (she was hot when they met, and they don't have any kids yet. no kids?!) and you have to be fake nice to everyone in the family. you don't have to be convincing all the time, but before you're married, I want a lot of fake nice. she was living at my mom's while my mom was recovering from a severe injury that put her on bed-rest for 4-5 months and very restricted mobility after that. my sister, who is hell of sick, drove my mom to all her appointments and did all the grocery shopping. miss montana never asked once if she could help my mom. at her house. while she was bed-ridden. she never cleaned my mom's room for her, she never got her a cup of tea! she needs to up her fucking game. if you want to be a lifetime beneficiary of the trust of al'slastname then try harder.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:27 AM
horizontal rule
47

And I am definitely not sober right now,

That's a good start. Now it's time to acquire a fishing pole and a firearm.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:38 AM
horizontal rule
48

al and gswift definitely need to co-host some sort of radio show.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:54 AM
horizontal rule
49

Seconded 48.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:06 AM
horizontal rule
50

Sounds like she's calculated exactly how hard she needs to work you all pretty much right.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:10 AM
horizontal rule
51

I say photos from a private eye of bad GF schtupping some other dude (better yet, multiple other dudes; best yet, multiple dudes simultaneously) in her Philly apartment. Photos sent with no return address to brother. Let the chips fall where they may. Even if he marries her, you'll know he did it in full knowledge of her skankiness.

Also: Alameida!


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:28 AM
horizontal rule
52

what's she bringing to this enterprise? .... those better be the best blowjobs in the fucking world but even stipulating that they are, she needs to lose weight and get back to looking hot.

They say only Nixon could go to China...


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:36 AM
horizontal rule
53

she needs to up her fucking game.

Sounds like the game is working for her right now.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:37 AM
horizontal rule
54

Isn't being hostile to the rest of the family a time-honored strategy of wedge-driving? But honestly, isn't it your brother's problem? If he wants to support some less-than-completely-smoking-hot-and-sweet-to-his-family-golddigger, he's a grown man and his judgment's not going to improve because you complain about her.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:44 AM
horizontal rule
55

35

Those are some entertaining "theft" calls. "My ex refuses to return the ring I paid for and I'd like to press charges for theft." Me: "Maybe you're an asshole, maybe she's a whore, but the only thing for certain here is that the police don't care. Piss off."

I was under the impression that there are some cases (broken engagement) where a woman is legally obligated to return a ring. Although I suppose it is a civil rather than a criminal issue.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:57 AM
horizontal rule
56

I endorse 51 -- I know a guy who used to be in that line of work in Philly, and can hook you up with someone if you really decide to go that route. And don't already have this sort of person in your network.

|| Who's idea was it for me to drive up to Butte for a court appearance this morning, instead of going last night and staying over? I need a clause in my standard engagement letter that says I don't ever have to get out of bed before 8:00 am local time for anything ever. Ever. |>


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 5:02 AM
horizontal rule
57

56.1: does he shoot on film? I mean it doesn't have to be a Hasselblad or anything but no crapp DSLR.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 5:14 AM
horizontal rule
58

Private eyes in the 1880s could only catch people in the throes of tantric adultery.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 5:15 AM
horizontal rule
59

To judge by Sherlock Holmes, all they really needed to prove moral failure was a letter containing the either "ardent hope for the future" or "nipped-out".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 5:31 AM
horizontal rule
60

58: It would only happen in an exceptional case.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 5:33 AM
horizontal rule
61

Possibly it could obtaining by deception if she never intended to go through with it?

In general I would not want to have laws that let people get wedding rings (and other gifts) back absent actual fraud, but I do not know so much about these things.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 5:40 AM
horizontal rule
62

61

In general I would not want to have laws that let people get wedding rings (and other gifts) back absent actual fraud, but I do not know so much about these things.

I think legally an engagement ring is more like a down payment. So if the man breaks the engagement he doesn't get it back but if the woman breaks the engagement she is supposed to return the ring. Wedding rings would presumably be dealt with like other marital property in the case of a divorce.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:02 AM
horizontal rule
63

re: 58/60

Humorlessly: camera film/plates in the 1880s were fast enough to shoot hand-held, with exposures of fractions of seconds.

So they could make beautiful hand cameras like this from 1900:

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_C302.html


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:06 AM
horizontal rule
64

63: I saw quite an interesting show of early photography at the Van Gogh museum in Amsterdam over Christmas. (Mind you at this distance I can mostly remember the funny magnifying glasses they gave you.) Also I had not realised that the Van Gogh museum was a Rietveld.

62: I think it depends how charming the man is.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:12 AM
horizontal rule
65

63: can it truly be humorless if it cracks me up that I (semi-accidentally) trolled you that well?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:15 AM
horizontal rule
66

There's probably enough room to mount an iPhone inside that bellows on the fancy camera. Then you have form and function.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:17 AM
horizontal rule
67

It was a bit like 'here is my button, watch Sifu push it'.

re: 66

There's a fairly active community bodging all kinds of old lenses onto digital cameras. Some are dead easy to do. The results often beautiful, too.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:33 AM
horizontal rule
68

I'm not sure what "bodging" is, but I'm adding it to my vocabulary starting today.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:35 AM
horizontal rule
69

56: My brother.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:38 AM
horizontal rule
70

'Bodging'. Like 'MacGyvering'. Or 'cludging'.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:39 AM
horizontal rule
71

does he shoot on film? I mean it doesn't have to be a Hasselblad or anything but no crappy DSLR.

Wait, so we're looking for a hipster private eye now?

Bodging: to construct something in a non-standard and slightly clumsy and haphazard way that nevertheless still works.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:39 AM
horizontal rule
72

yeah, but if I send him the pictures anonymously he'll know it's either me, my sister, or at the outside, my mom. my sister wouldn't want to drop the cash on it, probably, and my mother would probably let it be, so I'd look pretty good. or me and my sister in on it together, just as miss thing predicts. then she'll turn it around as part of the long-term drive a wedge strategy. I would just have to hope that the atavistic rage and jealousy of seeing her frolic with a budding masseur before the exposed-brick wall of the apt. he's renting in philly would overwhelm him. rather than the immediate thought 'who the fuck paid for these to be taken and why is she trying to run my goddamn life over here?' because what am I, mastermind of successful human relationships I should be organizing his love life? I don't know shit.

but dammit, if gold is going to be dug for, some motherfucking bitches had best chime in 'it was I' said the owl 'with my little silver trowel, it was I' and shit and do it right. she lacks...effort. sticktuitiveness. I guess she's using it all up poisoning his mind against us. but, you know, plenty of people are trophy wives, it's fine; but they spend all their time doing pilates and getting expensive highlights and planning social events for their husbands. he's had long-term relationships in which we adored his gf so it's not as though we hate them all. anne, the previous, was brilliant, hilarious, witty, charming. montana suffers a grievous lack of mental whateverness, so she needs to step up with the physical attributes. I'm being harsh, but fair. she looks like a petty girl when she's working it.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:48 AM
horizontal rule
73

yeah, I need a hipster private eye who will only use an old leica and just do what feels right in terms of light and exposure.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:50 AM
horizontal rule
74

71: well we're sure as fuck not going to settle for some goddamned in flagrante instagrammatico wannabe bullshit. I mean, even a real Holga would be the wrong choice for this kind of documentation. But digital is just the wrong choice all around; half the fun of this kind of project is enlarging the photo a million times like in Blow-Up, but not if you end up swimming in giant pixels. This is adultery, not Galaga!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:51 AM
horizontal rule
75

72: I speak as someone with the worst sister-in-law in the entire world, and I say with great expertise that some dudes really can only get hard for sub-mediocre ugly bitches with profound personality disorders. Actually, that description should not be bound by gender: some people just go mad for unappealing pieces of shit who force them to give up their whole family to take care of them by paying for everything and hating everything they hate. My family and I have gone around and around trying to figure out what could possibly be appealing about a sour-faced hatebag who won't let my brother speak to us (he calls us from the car, like we're his mistress), made him change his name and move so we couldn't find him for years, won't let my parents see their grandson, etc. We ask ourselves all the time when is the day when bro sees he's been in an abusive relationship for 17 years, but it seems to be going really well as far as he's concerned. Nothing but good times, sounds like. He loves her not in spite of her being a sucky mean person, but because of it. Took me years to figure that out. My parents are still hoping he "wakes up."


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:59 AM
horizontal rule
76

My Dad had an old Leica from about 1945 that disappeared along with a bunch of other stuff when he died. I would love to have that camera. He was fond of mentioning the fact that it was the very same model issued to U-boat captains. The way those older cameras were manufactured without lots of snap-together injection molded parts, just all screws and c-rings made them highly bodgable. I could see how that would be a very fun hobby.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:59 AM
horizontal rule
77

In our case, though, there is no money. We're poor folk, so there's no family trust, just, you know, feelings to be hurt.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:00 AM
horizontal rule
78

Yeah, I used to have a 1946 Leica. I still have one but the current one is 1950s, and not quite as small and fondle-able.

Currently available for hipster-PI duties. Guaranteed intuitive exposure, and Rodchenko compositional angles.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:05 AM
horizontal rule
79

made him change his name and move so we couldn't find him for years

Good grief.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:07 AM
horizontal rule
80

sour-faced hatebag

Excellent phrase.

Sympathies to al and AWB, my dad was in a nightmarish second marriage for some years. It sucked that my best option was scheming on how to cast flickers of daylight on shitty behavior.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:07 AM
horizontal rule
81

re: 76

In the UK at least you could pick up a 1940s Leica with lens for £200-£250. Unless it was all Nazi'd up, in which case the collectors go daft for them.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:08 AM
horizontal rule
82

It is too bad that hipster PI has already been done and also was sort of lame.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:09 AM
horizontal rule
83

My first camera, beautifully built

Zorkis are also very well-made and super cheap.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:13 AM
horizontal rule
84

My Dad had an old Leica from about 1945 that disappeared along with a bunch of other stuff when he died.

I first thought this was talking about a mistress.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:14 AM
horizontal rule
85

Heh. Zorkis are fun cameras [I've had two]. Not quite [British understatement] as well made as the Leitz equivalent, but they'll take pictures of just as high quality, or high enough to be indistinguishable for pretty much all purposes.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:15 AM
horizontal rule
86

Either Veronica Mars' dad or Elliott Gould from The Long Goodbye would be good choices for the PI.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:15 AM
horizontal rule
87

I can nerd out about this endlessly [stern look at Sifu].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:17 AM
horizontal rule
88

A friend of mine's brother has an addiction to borderline personality disorder. Can't resist it. The women he dates are exclusively splitters--us vs. them, perfect vs. evil, all the time. Drama every minute. He's a therapist and really does intellectually know better, but--and at least he's self-aware about it--he can't resist the siren song of lies and manipulations. As I have opined many times, I have never met someone who is incredibly needy and angry all the time who is single. They're the most sexually attractive people in the world.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:17 AM
horizontal rule
89

88.last is definitely true.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:20 AM
horizontal rule
90

82: SHUT UP. I liked that show. Ted Danson is fantastic.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:22 AM
horizontal rule
91

90: I didn't actually watch it. I find Jason Schwartzman sort of generically loathsome but I'm willing to believe that's not a deal breaker.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:26 AM
horizontal rule
92

...borderline personality disorder. I have never met someone who is incredibly needy and angry all the time who is single. They're the most sexually attractive people in the world.

(Blush)


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:32 AM
horizontal rule
93

needy and angry

This translates into an extremely attentive person, always intersted in the actions of those close to them.

For people uncomfortable with solitude or the possiblity of indifference (ie, those who are themselves needy) this has a definite appeal.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:34 AM
horizontal rule
94

A dog is much cheaper and has 95% of the same functionality. (100% if you are into bestiality)


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:38 AM
horizontal rule
95

He walks us and gives us cheese! How can love be wrong?


Posted by: bob's evil dogs | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:45 AM
horizontal rule
96

I have never met someone who is incredibly needy and angry all the time who is single.

You have never met a divorced MRA? Congratulations.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:53 AM
horizontal rule
97

A FAR more accurate version of 90 would be that Ted Danson was great in an otherwise fairly lame show.

I have a friend (well, really, friend of the GF) who is a straight up trophy wife. Husband is north of 70, she's young and hot, and just does exercise and shopping and elaborate pet grooming and writes a "screenplay" all day. Nothing else. But she's a nice person who stumbled on to a life that seems pretty damn good, so no hatred.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:01 AM
horizontal rule
98

You have never met a divorced MRA? Congratulations

Absolutely not confined to men.

To no one's surprise, there are crazy men's rights groups and crazy mother's rights groups.

(It is interesting that they are refered to that way. The male groups are more frequently referred to as men's rights not father's rights. The female groups are more frequently referred to as mothers's rights groups not women's rights groups.)

For both, the system is rigged against them and the judges and guardian ad litems are corrupt.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:11 AM
horizontal rule
99

I find Jason Schwartzman sort of generically loathsome

Me too.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:11 AM
horizontal rule
100

A touchstone book for me (found in a remainder sale) was a slim self-published tome called "How to Get What You Want" which was the best source of practical advice I've ever found.* It claimed that the two best ways to actually sexually attract people are (1) being needy and (2) being physically flexible.
I think that's exactly right.

*irony of ironies, it's now with ex wife number 1 and lost to me.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
101

My landlord's kid also lived in the subdivided house I used to live in, so I kind of knew their whole family somewhat well.

Landlord/dad was a pilot in his 60s, married to a trophy wife - smoking hot woman in her late 30s who dressed and had the body and style sense of a terribly hot 18 year old. And she was totally friendly and nice, and I liked her just fine.

Dad would openly say to son "You mother is the love of my life, but I can't stay faithful to her." According to son, everyone happily had holidays together and there wasn't any bad blood. (Son was sort of an out-to-lunch pothead doofus, so who knows whether or not that was true. Everyone I met was very nice, though.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:16 AM
horizontal rule
102

What a boring story.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:16 AM
horizontal rule
103

*irony of ironies, it's now with ex wife number 1 and lost to me.

She became inflexible?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
104

and (2) being physically flexible.

Like yoga-bendy or "I don't care about physical beauty" flexible.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
105

Yoga-bendy. If you're both bendy and needy, it pretty much rains sex.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
106

It claimed that the two best ways to actually sexually attract people are (1) being needy and (2) being physically flexible.

This completely explains my pathetic dating history, being both self-sufficient and stiff as a board. God knows what Buck sees in me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:21 AM
horizontal rule
107

I can touch my toes if I warm up and I once cried for a hatchling chick I saw being flung down a chute while I was watching How It's Made. Somebody hold me.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:22 AM
horizontal rule
108

I find the attractiveness of neediness somewhat disturbing, but I suppose I'm as susceptible to it as anyone. When a self-contained person meets another self-contained person, they acknowledge one another, and can perhaps become friends, but there isn't an impetus to do anything but respect one another. I certainly enjoy the feeling of being needed, and can see why my partners complain about my refusal to ask them for things/help. It's offensive.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:23 AM
horizontal rule
109

That you are yoga-bendy is something that will only come out in some situations, though, innit?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:24 AM
horizontal rule
110

How do you tell that someone's yoga-bendy when you first meet them? Just something about the way they move or hold themsleves?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:24 AM
horizontal rule
111

105: I dunno, most of the dancers I've known have ticked both of those boxes (and been nuts to boot) but still not had much luck in that area.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:25 AM
horizontal rule
112

110: "Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:26 AM
horizontal rule
113

109, 110: if you're trying to meet somebody in a bar, hold your beer with your foot.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:27 AM
horizontal rule
114

I was just recently dating a needy, bendy (yoga + ballet) woman.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:27 AM
horizontal rule
115

Anyhow 105 definitely isn't true.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:27 AM
horizontal rule
116

Strange. People seem to find it less attractive and more humorous when I tuck my feet behind my head. Maybe I should work on being needier.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:29 AM
horizontal rule
117

How do you tell that someone's yoga-bendy when you first meet them?

In my experience it's like being a fast-jet pilot: you don't, they tell you.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
118

Or, possibly, on your timing.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
119

How ironic.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
120

Oh please. This is mission creep. Neither openness (which is how I read 108-- demonstrate self-sufficiency by not saying anything personal, so no sparks) nor empathy (I watch baby sloth videos) are necessary or sufficient conditions for neediness.

Please to provide full Myers-Briggs of the typical attractive and also needy person.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:31 AM
horizontal rule
121

100.2 seems like it's gender specific. Despite looking like a bag of lard, I can kick higher than my own head, and easily touch my toes. I don't think it's likely to have people beating my door down.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:31 AM
horizontal rule
122

A guy I knew in high school once put both of his feet behind his head while hanging from the handholds in a bus. He got stuck and couldn't get unwound, so the rest of us got off at the next stop and left him. I'm not sure how the story ended (only knew him peripherally), but in retrospect, that's about as bendy and needy as you can get. Perhaps I should have found it arousing.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:32 AM
horizontal rule
123

INFDDD.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:32 AM
horizontal rule
124

123 to 120.last.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:33 AM
horizontal rule
125

I think 100 is pretty gendered all around. If we're talking about pithy heteronormative advice for dudes the Tao of Steve probably does better (totes flawed, though).


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:33 AM
horizontal rule
126

122, coda: (On self-examination, I literally can't remember whether I was on the bus, or only heard the story.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:33 AM
horizontal rule
127

120: I find self-sufficiency often presents as complete openness; there are no sparks because there is nothing hidden, nothing special to be revealed only to you. The needy person pulls you aside and says there is something I am trusting you with that all others are denied because they can't help me.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:34 AM
horizontal rule
128

I think you aren't supposed to be needy qua bendy, though.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:34 AM
horizontal rule
129

I would claim that what's actually appealing is openness. Next, openness anticorrelates with good judgement, since talking to other people is usually so disappointing.

So sampling for people who are open produces a population in which poor judgement is overrepresented.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:34 AM
horizontal rule
130

120, 127: the one thing we can be sure of is that there's a single, simple correct description of what it is like (or like for others) to be needy or self-sufficient.

I find self-sufficiency often presents as complete openness

RENÉ GIRARD WOULD DISAGREE!!!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:35 AM
horizontal rule
131

There is an optimum level of neediness between complete self sufficiency and the sucking vortex of total dependence (AKA my first serious girlfriend). Similarly there is a peak of bendiness between complete inflexibility and slime mold like bonelessness. Plotting the two as a surface in 3D hotness-neediness-flexibility space we have a local peak that totally looks like a booby.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
132

I think 100 is pretty gendered all around

I think your mom is gendered all around.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
133

You don't have to put things over your head with your foot; it's just posture, grace of movement, etc. Combine it with asking people to do things for you and you're golden.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
134

The good thing about this conversation is that we will end up having completely and satisfactorily described the totality of human attractiveness.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
135

132: that's what she said!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
136

135 to 130.1 in reference to [ 134, 125.1 in reference to 134 ].


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:38 AM
horizontal rule
137

complete openness
Hot counterexample


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:38 AM
horizontal rule
138

My two worst dating decisions definitely seem to have involved me being, for inexplicable reasons, attracted to bendiness or neediness or both. In retrospect it all seems completely stupid.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:38 AM
horizontal rule
139

it's just posture, grace of movement, etc.
Says the supple leopard.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:39 AM
horizontal rule
140

To be more precise, the claim in the book wasn't about neediness in the abstract, it was about specifically demanding that people do things for you.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:40 AM
horizontal rule
141

Please bring me a cold beer and some tacos al lengua.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:41 AM
horizontal rule
142

"Pull my head out of my ass! Now!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:41 AM
horizontal rule
143

"Take me to a yoga studio but not one of those sweaty ones"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:43 AM
horizontal rule
144

specifically demanding that people do things for you

I think this gets pretty close to advice given in Why Men Marry Bitches. I have not read said book, but its contents were reported to me in great detail.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:44 AM
horizontal rule
145

None of this has described my dating life at all -- I pursued men with powerful mothers and mellifluous voices, and attracted them with upright posture and quivering rage -- but I'm laughing hard enough to spit tea.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:46 AM
horizontal rule
146

"Buy me some jewelry from a store that uses really sexist advertising."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:46 AM
horizontal rule
147

I pursued men with powerful mothers and mellifluous voices, and attracted them with upright posture and quivering rage

Best dating summary ever.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:47 AM
horizontal rule
148


I was two-thirds of the way through 75 before I could conclusively rule out the possibility of Fleur being the author.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:47 AM
horizontal rule
149

I seem to remember having seen 'asking for small favors' as advice for indicating immediate interest, sort of like touching the person you're interested in, or playing with your hair. The idea, as I recall, was that it indicated a willingness to be under a minor obligation to the other person, rather than neediness generally.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:50 AM
horizontal rule
150

There's the con in Faking It and Welcome to Temptation; get them to smile, get them to say yes, make them feel smarter than you, ask them for a favor, make the con.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
151

147 gets it right.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:57 AM
horizontal rule
152

from 75:

some people just go mad for unappealing pieces of shit who force them to give up their whole family to take care of them by paying for everything and hating everything they hate

One example of this in my ambit, I can't figure out, but I wonder if it's because of not being able to separate from the family or express boundaries or anger in some way that's probably quite reasonable but ruled out by some gotcha no-one sees.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:57 AM
horizontal rule
153

have not read said book, but its contents were reported to me in great detail.

On an internet date, one hopes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
154

Jeez!

1) I have a film Leica and a 1950s spy camera along with a film SLR, long lenses, etc. Need a fedora though but that's an easy fix.

2) I'm single, might be needy and am fairly angry. Not very bendy, and a too old for AWB but perhaps there are others out other.

3) Was just notified that the LA Superior Court sees the wisdom of not having a very cranky old fart prone to "Off with their heads!" on a jury.

4) Now, to get the DE off their damned list. Writing "Deceased, not at this address" on the envelope did not work. Have just tried "DEAD!! What part of DEAD do you not understand? Look her up on the internet, you fucktards." in red magic marker.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:02 AM
horizontal rule
155

On an internet date, one hopes.

Sadly no. Though more than a few of my internet dates got wrecked right around the time we started discussing a book or a film.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:03 AM
horizontal rule
156

To be more precise, the claim in the book wasn't about neediness in the abstract, it was about specifically demanding that people do things for you.

That is very, very different from neediness.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:06 AM
horizontal rule
157

I pursued men with powerful mothers and mellifluous voices

Just one powerful mother, one presumes.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:07 AM
horizontal rule
158

13 to 157.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:08 AM
horizontal rule
159

157: So "I pursued men with a powerful mother"... you're suggesting that she has only ever pursued one set of brothers?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:11 AM
horizontal rule
160

No, I'm reading "with" as a rather than cum.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:11 AM
horizontal rule
161

I pursued men by means of a powerful mother and a mellifluous voice (or voices).

Clew does have a mellifluous voice!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:12 AM
horizontal rule
162

She might have gathered a band of powerful mothers in the company of which she hunted down men who appealed to her.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:13 AM
horizontal rule
163

"Surround me, powerful mothers! Now, mellifluous voices: sing us a song of war!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:15 AM
horizontal rule
164
They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap.

Although I suppose that should be Redfoxtail's dating methods, rather than clew's.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:19 AM
horizontal rule
165

163: yes, it does have rather a "Bacchae" sound to it.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:24 AM
horizontal rule
166

163 has made my day, and on its tide I must bend my sail towards work. (Metaphor, self-banishing, work-enforcing.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:24 AM
horizontal rule
167

Do people actually do that thing where they spend two months' salary on an engagement ring? Because that strikes me as batshit insane.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:06 AM
horizontal rule
168

I bet no one on Unfogged has given or received a ring that cost 2 months salary (of the giver). Speak up if you're just that batshit insane!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:08 AM
horizontal rule
169

Tweety has assured me that my ring did not cost 2 months of the salary he was making at the time. I am actually quite curious how much it cost, because I have basically no idea. I keep meaning to get it and some rings from my mom appraised for our renters' insurance, so I guess I'll get an idea then.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:15 AM
horizontal rule
170

I paid almost 2 weeks of after-tax salary.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:17 AM
horizontal rule
171

I have now, fifteen years later, lost it, but Buck went way over two months salary -- mine was completely disproportionate to anything sane. If I'd been involved in the purchase I would have vetoed it. (He very shortly thereafter started unexpectedly making a lot more money, so paying it off wasn't a problem. But it was a very silly thing to have done.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
172


167: Big Diamond is now trying to up the ante and change the "tradition" to three months salary. While unfogged is obviously not the target audience for these marketing claims, I'm not sure that the broader public ever bought it either. I suspect it functions in practice more as an anchor for expectations, so that people who spend 1.5 months salary feel like they're being prudent.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
173

It was really, really pretty, though.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
174

168. I was just given/offered a ring. It was a family heirloom, so I guess it cost the giver nothing. On the other hand, the giver is currently basically unemployed, so the worth of the ring is definitely way more than 2 months' salary. (And yet, for all this enticement, I said no.)


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:19 AM
horizontal rule
175

Turned down a proposal, or just the accompanying jewelry? Funny, I don't hear many stories of people getting to the jewelry-offering stage of proposing without having all but explicitly agreed to getting married already.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:21 AM
horizontal rule
176

I have never met someone who is incredibly needy and angry all the time who is single. They're the most sexually attractive people in the world.

This amuses me because my love life after moving to New York suddenly got much better and the other thing that happened when I moved to New York was, yeah.

In retrospect it all seems completely stupid.

and I've found my epitaph!


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:21 AM
horizontal rule
177

175. Turned down the proposal.

I'm intrigued by this needy/angry/bendy business. I'm fairly flexy, mostly angry, but not especially needy. I guess I could work on that last part?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:24 AM
horizontal rule
178

So, what happened? Random guy on a bus proposed; internet date proposed the second time you met; longterm boyfriend proposed but you don't think you're quite ready to get married, maybe next year; longterm boyfriend proposed but you think maybe breaking up instead is a better option?

Obviously, ignore unwanted nosy questions, but it sounds like there's a story.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:28 AM
horizontal rule
179

And this sounds recent, jms?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:29 AM
horizontal rule
180

Obviously, ignore unwanted nosy questions

No do not. Answer questions!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:31 AM
horizontal rule
181

It was a couple of weeks ago. Ex-boyfriend (we were together for nine years; he dumped me quite out of the blue two years ago; complications ensued; recently he has been petitioning reentry to my life; recentlier he proposed).

Anyway, I've decided to put the matter to a sort of a vote in this thread. At the conclusion of this thread, I will add up the characters in all of the comments. Odd=yes, even=no.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:34 AM
horizontal rule
182

Does 174 mean what I think it means?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:36 AM
horizontal rule
183

182. Yeah. Can I put you down in the "no" camp?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:37 AM
horizontal rule
184

That is a story.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:38 AM
horizontal rule
185

I would skywrite "don't even think about marrying him" if I could afford it.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:38 AM
horizontal rule
186

Yeah, I guess when I write it all down like that, it looks pretty bad.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:39 AM
horizontal rule
187

we were together for nine years; he dumped me quite out of the blue two years ago;

Oh, I remember this guy! (Or I'm confused.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:39 AM
horizontal rule
188

Counting the characters first to make sure they made the thread come out to an even number.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:40 AM
horizontal rule
189

Oh hey it does. I guess I say yes? Or maybe no?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:40 AM
horizontal rule
190

Yike


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:42 AM
horizontal rule
191

If there were a connected story that had been posted presidentially that it wouldn't be wrong for anyone to mentally connect to this guy, you'd mention that it was okay, right? (Not that I know, I make an effort not to check IP addresses for presidential posts unless I really really want to.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:43 AM
horizontal rule
192

(Not that I know, I make an effort not to check IP addresses for presidential posts unless I really really want to.)

This high level of probity and discretion is what keeps me coming back to Unfogged.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:44 AM
horizontal rule
193

I don't think I've ever posted presidentially. I talked about this only a little bit here, plus some complaining on Kotsko's now-mostly-defunct blog.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:44 AM
horizontal rule
194

(I haven't checked any IP addresses either), I'm just remembering some horrible out-of-the-blue break up, where the guy had been massively withholding communications that anything was other than hunky-dory. Might have been someone else or someone presidential.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:45 AM
horizontal rule
195

I spent in the range of two months salary on my wife's engagement ring. At the time diamonds were relatively expensive compared to today, my salary was quite low. The ring is quite modest. It looks like someone with the same civil service classification as I had back then could now buy the same size ring for less than a month's salary, and I could buy that size ring for roughly one day's compensation.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:45 AM
horizontal rule
196


181: Best ATM EVAR !


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:45 AM
horizontal rule
197

Then I'm connecting the wrong story. Oh, good, the one I was thinking of was a real piece of work.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:46 AM
horizontal rule
198

194. That sounds like me! Maybe I talked about this more than I remember.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:46 AM
horizontal rule
199

196. I'm totally at your mercy!


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:46 AM
horizontal rule
200

I just want whatever will bring you happiness, jms.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:48 AM
horizontal rule
201

jms, are you including thread numbers and "Posted by" lines? Just so I can game it out better.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:51 AM
horizontal rule
202

I mean post numbers.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:51 AM
horizontal rule
203

I would skywrite "don't even think about marrying him" if I could afford it.

As long as it costs less than 2 months' salary, I think you're obligated to do this.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:52 AM
horizontal rule
204

I suggest a set of explicit relationship targets in lieu of marriage.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:53 AM
horizontal rule
205

My first impulse, without RTFA, is DTMFA, but now I'm reconsidering based on the whole 9 years relationship thing. That's kind of a long time. Was the later part of that relationship okay? If it sucked, then obviously fuck it. But if it was good and the break up was just one moment of stupidity balanced against 9 years of being pretty decent, maybe a second chance is not so absurd. Hard to say without more details though.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:54 AM
horizontal rule
206

Also, bourbon, and prayer.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:55 AM
horizontal rule
207

Have you guys been seeing each other exclusively for the past couple months, since he began petitioning for re-entry? Ie was there any meaningful relationship at the time of proposal?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:56 AM
horizontal rule
208

207. Not really seeing each other exclusively, no, although we weren't really seeing anyone else. On the other hand, we also weren't really seeing each other, period. Basically, each of us were living in separate hermit-like states, plus occasional making out.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:59 AM
horizontal rule
209

I'm really selling this well.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:59 AM
horizontal rule
210

FWIW, I spent more than I'd really budgeted, but far less than 2 months' salary. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was 2 weeks' salary.

Have I told this story? We'd been looking together, mostly at estate stuff, and found one that seemed right, but it was missing stones. Without AB's knowledge, I had them order the stones (a pair of sapphires to flank the diamond that was still in place). In the meantime, I went on a business trip*, during which trip AB visited another jeweler and found the ring she really wanted. When we spoke on the phone that night, I pretty much bit my tongue off. The first jeweler was very forgiving about what happened, and I eventually told AB about it, which made her feel awful, but she was still happier with the ring she'd found.

Until she lost it on the beach at Lake Erie.

* 4 days and 3 nights touring Central PA with a cow-orker, measuring mall spaces to become Verizon Wireless stores. In mid-December (during the F-ing FL recount), so all the malls were playing Xmas music. Awful as it was, we were on a generous expense account, so we ate at the best available restaurants** and stayed in historic hotels in the centers of old county seats, like York.

** no snickering


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:00 AM
horizontal rule
211

living in separate hermit-like states, plus occasional making out.

Hey jms, if the word count works out right, maybe you'd be available?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:02 AM
horizontal rule
212

living in separate hermit-like states, plus occasional making out.

Yeah, this sounds pretty sweet unless there are kids. btw, I am 6'1" and will laugh at your jokes.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
213

I suggest a set of explicit relationship targets in lieu of marriage.

1. Stop being a jerk.
2. Seriously, stop.
3. Okay, this time I mean it.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
214

213: His reply,"Why do you insist on trying to change me?"


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:13 AM
horizontal rule
215

I would be surprised if in any state you have to legally give an engagement ring back. It's not a down payment, so far as I know.

||The county courthouse in Butte is stunning. It cost more to build, the judge told me, than the state capitol: the Copper Kings wanted it clear who was who and what was what. They had the centennial this summer, including a ball in the lobby. |>

JMS, you don't make a life with this fellow seem that appealing. But there's no hurry, right? He can keep petitioning for another year . . ."


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
216

185: I will totally chip in to make this happen.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:20 AM
horizontal rule
217

I would be surprised if in any state you have to legally give an engagement ring back.

Surprise!


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:22 AM
horizontal rule
218

gswift, it would be rude of me to tell the guy to wait more than five weeks before proposing next time, right?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:23 AM
horizontal rule
219

215.2: It is amusing that if you do an image search on "Butte courthouse" you get a whole lot of pictures of a big rock, and if you do "Silver Bow courthouse" you get lots of sparkly shoes.

If I lived in Butte, I would open a restaurant called "The Poisonville Cafe", with dishes like "Red Harvest breakfast platter" and "What's The Rumpus? burgers"


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:25 AM
horizontal rule
220

212: But are you flexible?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
221

216: The best thing would be all of the bystanders who'd think, "Is that meant for me?". It would be wonderfully self-fulfilling: if you think it's intended for you, it probably should be.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:29 AM
horizontal rule
222

217 -- You learn something every day, whether you want to or not.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:29 AM
horizontal rule
223

I'm kidding about 213, by the way. He is really and truly not a jerk, by most accounts. Natilo's diagnosis in 205 of "one moment of stupidity balanced against 9 years of being pretty decent" pretty much has it, except that "one moment" should be "about a year and a half," and "stupidity" is maybe something else, and I'm trying to figure out what that was. He says it was a period of mental illness, and there seems to be some support for that -- he was clearly deeply depressed, and there was something very wrong -- but I'm also worried that it wasn't just illness (which I can live with) but a characterological issue. So, that's what I'm trying to sort out.

At any rate, I said no, for now, anyway. This was made easier by the fact that the ring was totally monstrous. It turns out that his great-great grandmother or whatever had horrendous taste.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:30 AM
horizontal rule
224

Natilo, you know how it ended up being Butte-Silver Bow (rather than just Silver Bow County)? The class struggle story about how the city was dis-incorporated is worth a few minutes' research.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:32 AM
horizontal rule
225

No for now definitely seems like the right answer.

Personally, I'm of the view that there's no reason to get married absent an intention to shortly thereafter have kids, and not much of a reason even then. But that's just me.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:33 AM
horizontal rule
226

(And in between researching the history of Butte, folks can read Molly Laich's latest movie review.)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:34 AM
horizontal rule
227

Another vote for Basically, each of us were living in separate hermit-like states, plus occasional making out..


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:38 AM
horizontal rule
228

each of us were living in separate hermit-like states, plus occasional making out.

The ideal relationship!

Or maybe not. But maybe?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:46 AM
horizontal rule
229

Dude. If you aren't currently obligated, don't live with illness either. I mean, if you are together and can live with illness, do that because it is awesome and you'd hope to get that returned for you.

But if you aren't currently with someone who has spells of mental illness that make him dump you (or even be not-himself, when himself is the person you loved) then don't take that on. Of course mental illness means he hasn't any cruel intention. But living with that even if it isn't meant cruelly is horrible and hard, and you should avoid horrible and hard things if you have the choice. Right now your choice is wide open (by his doing). Give thanks for a dodged bullet and keep moving.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:48 AM
horizontal rule
230

there's no reason to get married absent an intention to shortly thereafter have kids, and not much of a reason even then.

Tax breaks?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:53 AM
horizontal rule
231

227: I was going to mention you by name, neb, but I didn't want TBSALB.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:54 AM
horizontal rule
232

Spending two months' salary sounds kind of insane to me. You could spend that money on an awesome vacation! Or a whole new wardrobe. Or a collection of less expensive, but distinctive, rings which could be worn for more variety. Or... a pony?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:56 AM
horizontal rule
233

I don't think the point is that it's not supposed to be insane. That's the whole marketing pitch: prove to her that she makes you insane. (With love.)


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:59 AM
horizontal rule
234

232: I think the logic of it is Kierkegaardian -- the fact that it is so crazy is proof of true love.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:01 PM
horizontal rule
235

233, 234: Pwned by urple! But I was more pretentious!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:03 PM
horizontal rule
236

Learning that the ex known as Sylvia Plath bought into the two-months-salary thing helped to end that relationship. Not as much as realizing that she was antisemitic, or having her try to get pregnant when we were breaking up, but it was a factor.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:05 PM
horizontal rule
237

236: I can't believe you let that one get away!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:10 PM
horizontal rule
238

The fact that he proposed to you when you're not living together or really even in a relationship is a bad, bad sign.

Furthermore, I endorse 229.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:10 PM
horizontal rule
239

The last time we discussed this, Dsquared had a riff about how the DeBeers who thought up the two month's salary thing must now be a legend. "They went for it! I can't believe they went for it"


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:12 PM
horizontal rule
240

having her try to get pregnant when we were breaking up

Ah, that old move.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:13 PM
horizontal rule
241

Furthermore, I endorse 229.

You gonna tell M/tch, or should we?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:14 PM
horizontal rule
242

Has that ridiculously transparent right-hand ring campaign died yet?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:15 PM
horizontal rule
243

The last time we discussed this, Dsquared had a riff about how the DeBeers who thought up the two month's salary thing must now be a legend. "They went for it! I can't believe they went for it"

I'd have assumed that it was an outgrowth of the things one would otherwise have spent the money on at the outset of married life together—downpayment on a house or whatever.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:16 PM
horizontal rule
244

LB & hg, maybe you're thinking of I-can't-think-of-her-pseud from CA with the crazily unsupportive family? Who got out of a shitty long-term relationship and found a good guy not too long after? Neb, you know who I mean.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:20 PM
horizontal rule
245

241: That depends if you think I'm party A or party B.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:22 PM
horizontal rule
246

or having her try to get pregnant when we were breaking up

People say that sending a text or email is too distant, but waiting until you are mid coitus seems way too far in the other direction.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:23 PM
horizontal rule
247

I will contribute however many characters are needed for a "no" answer.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:25 PM
horizontal rule
248

245: Well, if you have to ask...


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:26 PM
horizontal rule
249


If you google "two months salary", one of the autocomplete suggestions is "two months salary rule gross or net?".


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:36 PM
horizontal rule
250

KR, didn't Fleur flip out that the ring you bought was too small?


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:36 PM
horizontal rule
251

but I'm also worried that it wasn't just illness (which I can live with) but a characterological issue.

I'm interested in this distinction but not sure quite what to say about it. I drank a 16 oz Dr. Pepper (not yet banned!) with lunch and am sort of twitchy.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:37 PM
horizontal rule
252

249: my jaw dropped


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:39 PM
horizontal rule
253

249: shiv made that joke when he was ring shopping. "gross, or net, and what I made when we met, or what I make now?"


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:41 PM
horizontal rule
254

KR, didn't Fleur flip out that the ring you bought was too small?

Not exactly. She loved the engagement ring (even though it was cute). It's the wedding ring that was a bone of contention.

Funny story about the engagement ring: I was looking at a substantially larger stone (lower quality, and therefore still within my means) at a Parisian jeweler, and the owner informed me in a scolding tone that a ring that size should only be worn by a much older woman, and I should please turn my attention to something more appropriate.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:43 PM
horizontal rule
255

Can you subtract 401k contributions? What about charitable donations?

Some accountant should come up with an investment product that shields your income from engagement ring calculations.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:45 PM
horizontal rule
256

If you are receiving financial support from an ex-wife, do you count that as part of the salary for the ring you get for the next one? Probably the support will stop as soon as you remarry, so it shouldn't count unless you have a long engagement.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:53 PM
horizontal rule
257

I am too lazy to find and link the article I have no doubt found and linked the last time we talked about this. (It is awesome though. On the overvaluation of the diamond with respect to agate. Diamonds: Neither rare nor interesting to look at!)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:55 PM
horizontal rule
258

254.last: We got the same advice from a woman at an antique store in Blawnox.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 12:56 PM
horizontal rule
259

You were staring at her butt, not a ring.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:05 PM
horizontal rule
260

I would be surprised if in any state you have to legally give an engagement ring back

I was just involved in such a case. The ring is a conditional gift. It needs to be returned if you dont marry.

Once you marry, you get to keep it.

(Shearer was correct as far as Va. This is consistent Circuit Court opinion. Supremes of Va havent addressed it.)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:22 PM
horizontal rule
261

I vote no on the jms question. Only bc I care.

Large engagement rings/diamonds are stupid. I secretly want their value to drop significantly. (I guess it isnt a secret anymore.)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:24 PM
horizontal rule
262

261: The less money you pay on an engagement ring, the more you'll have to pay to a divorce attorney!

I was just explaining why Will was against expensive engagement rings, but than I realized I had come up with a slogan for a diamond store. Is it better than the one in the OP?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:32 PM
horizontal rule
263

gswift, it would be rude of me to tell the guy to wait more than five weeks before proposing next time, right?

Seeing as you're now living in a place rife with gang warfare maybe people just need to seize the moment not knowing if today will be their last.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:32 PM
horizontal rule
264

People are always pissed about the engagement ring bc invariably they are still paying it off. So the wife gets to keep the expensive ring and the Husband gets the debt.

Prenups, people! Prenups.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:35 PM
horizontal rule
265

||

I just had my hair cut by some old Korean lady with a comical accent. The haircut was crazy meticulous and the conversation was kind of nuts the entire time. "On news there was president of a computer company talking about putting computer chip in brain! Make us robots! You would be robocop! HAHAHAHAHA. ROBOCOP! You know movie? Robocop? HAHAHAHAHA."

|>


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:38 PM
horizontal rule
266

Man, does that sound like a marker of bad judgment. A marriage that didn't last long enough to pay off the ring?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:38 PM
horizontal rule
267

||

So, many of you people have real jobs in real companies that turn a profit and stuff. Is it normal for someone at your workplace to schedule a meeting with (1) no agenda and (2) no fixed ending time, and, then, for that person to turn around and (3) cry when they don't get what they want?

|>


Posted by: President don't look at my IP address | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:49 PM
horizontal rule
268

267: Like, actually cry? With tears and everything?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:50 PM
horizontal rule
269

I think the office door had slammed behind her before the actual waterworks came on.


Posted by: PdlamIPa | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:52 PM
horizontal rule
270

267: Not at either of the two places I've worked full-time, no.

And I thought Kurt Vonnegut was just being mordant when he wrote:

"But just imagine how hard you would be [for the IRS] to watch if you had a whole office building jammed to the rafters with industrial bureaucrats--men who lose things and use the wrong forms and create new forms and demand everything in quintuplicate, and who understand perhaps a third of what is said to them; who habitually give misleading answers in order to gain time in which to think, who make decisions only when forced to, and who then cover their tracks; who make perfectly honest mistakes in addition and subtraction, who call meetings whenever they feel lonely, who write memos whenever they feel unloved; men who never throw anything away unless they think it could get them fired."

Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:53 PM
horizontal rule
271

Define "normal".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:53 PM
horizontal rule
272

267, 269: Sadly, that would not at all be out of the ordinary for a number of places I've worked.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 1:58 PM
horizontal rule
273

So, many of you people have real jobs in real companies that turn a profit and stuff. Is it normal for someone at your workplace to schedule a meeting with (1) no agenda and (2) no fixed ending time, and, then, for that person to turn around and (3) cry when they don't get what they want?

If they had no agenda, how do you know they didn't get what they wanted?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:00 PM
horizontal rule
274

On second thought, don't define normal. I've comforting delusions to maintain and never worked in a for-profit business in any but the lowest capacities.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:00 PM
horizontal rule
275

When you say meeting, are we talking a conference room full of people, or just the two of you in your office?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:01 PM
horizontal rule
276

267: Not unheard of. If you want to introduce something everyone will hate, it's logical not to hand out an agenda in advance. It's also quite likely not to get one's way following such a move. If one is going to cry, the logical time to do it is after not getting one's way.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:01 PM
horizontal rule
277

It's very weird to schedule a meeting with no agenda. It's not weird at all to schedule a meeting without circulating an agenda to the other participants in the meeting. It's also not terribly weird to schedule a meeting with no fixed ending time. Crying in the meeting would be weird but back in her office is perfectly normal.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:02 PM
horizontal rule
278

Is this really the most damning IP address reveal, were I to look it up? It seems like I've been tested through far more delicious gossipy dirt.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:03 PM
horizontal rule
279

278: Get out. The comment is coming from your house.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:04 PM
horizontal rule
280

There seems to be something that she wanted, because she was heartbroken when we couldn't figure out exactly what it was, and whether such a thing was affordable, practical, ethical, or logically possible.


Posted by: PdlamIPa | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:05 PM
horizontal rule
281

Okay, it really can't have been that unclear. I mean, unclear in detail, but it must have been possible to figure out roughly what was going on.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:07 PM
horizontal rule
282

280: There is no totally novel sex act that meets those criteria.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:08 PM
horizontal rule
283

I guess you never notice basic corporate functionality until it's gone. We have zero open-ended meetings, hardly any unscheduled, and reminders in all meeting rooms of how to have an effective meeting, which are both sensible and by and large followed.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:08 PM
horizontal rule
284

This was a meeting of six people (then five, then four) in a windowless conference room that had old fashioned, buzzing florescent lighting. When the meeting was over, the person who called the meeting stormed across the hall to her own office, apparently to sob.

My first post exaggerated a little, but not so much for comic effect, but more to express how unsettling I found this whole thing.

The IP address is not especially damning. I just wanted to make fun of you guys for looking at IP addresses.


Posted by: PdlamIPa | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:12 PM
horizontal rule
285

I just want to kill a billion dollar puppy on top of a space elevator while simultaneously not killing the puppy? Is that so wrong? Boohoohoohoo.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:12 PM
horizontal rule
286

I find angry women attractive, but I thought this was just one of my own personal character flaws, rather than a general trait. (Though "angry at me" isn't attractive -- a general abstract anger at society is attractive.)


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:16 PM
horizontal rule
287

Heh. Sally was talking about her new favorite band (Paramore? I haven't ever actually heard any of their stuff.) and described them as good because "They're really angry. Not, like, angry because they broke up with someone or for some kind of reason, just angry generally."


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:19 PM
horizontal rule
288

Neb, you know who I mean.

I do! I even remember her pseud.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:20 PM
horizontal rule
289

Well perhaps you could remind a person of it.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:25 PM
horizontal rule
290

286: So you're saying I've got options if M/tch throws me over?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:25 PM
horizontal rule
291

She was a belletrist, or rather, a singular example of what a belletrist writes.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:26 PM
horizontal rule
292

||
Fuckety fuck fuck. One of my best friends was just diagnosed with ALS.
|>


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:26 PM
horizontal rule
293

Oh god, that sucks. Sorry, Chopper.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:33 PM
horizontal rule
294

285: a puppy puppy? Or a temporary job at a selective liberal arts college puppy?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:34 PM
horizontal rule
295

That sucks, Chopper.

I'm also totally on board with Megan's 229 ("Dude. If you aren't currently obligated, don't live with illness either."), which is one reason I'm rather conflicted about my desire to go on dates and such.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:35 PM
horizontal rule
296

Sorry, Chopper, that's absolutely awful.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:35 PM
horizontal rule
297

Very sorry to hear about your friend.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:51 PM
horizontal rule
298

292: Oh man. I'm so sorry.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:51 PM
horizontal rule
299

I have never met someone who is incredibly needy and angry all the time who is single.

Man, I date a whole lot of needy and angry. I've come to assume my attraction to that is pathological and a sign of deep, unresolved problems. I don't know whether to be comforted or frightened by the suggestion that this combo appeals widely.

(Also, I'm as needy and angry as they come I should think and have been plenty single plenty often. Do I need to be needier? Angrier?)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:52 PM
horizontal rule
300

267: uh, no, no, and no. Agendas are sometimes vague, or just implicit in the title, maybe. (2) is technically impossible given the use of calendaring software, which is handy. As for (3) - is this someone in an existing position of authority, or someone who seems to be trying to assert some authority that doesn't obviously exist?


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:54 PM
horizontal rule
301

Sorry, Chopper, that's terrible.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:55 PM
horizontal rule
302

"temporary job at a selective liberal arts college" was not exactly the meaning of "puppy" as originally used by Unserious. Whoever that was.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:55 PM
horizontal rule
303

I don't know what "meeting" means. I mean, a lot of times if I'm working on a project with two or three other people I'll ask them if we can meet and discuss progress and what to do next, and it's kind of open-ended. But it's not like official-meeting-with-an-agenda-and-minutes or anything. I guess I don't know where the boundary between "meeting" and "conversation involving more than two people" is.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 2:58 PM
horizontal rule
304

And while I'm serial-commenting: is it normal for someone in your workplace to frequently wear a prominently displayed belt buckle that reads "Superstar!"? Because I am having so much trouble keeping a straight face whenever this guy shows up.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:00 PM
horizontal rule
305

I bet no one on Unfogged has given or received a ring that cost 2 months salary (of the giver). Speak up if you're just that batshit insane!

I dated a guy this summer who gave me a ring that cost more than two months' salary. Of course, he was unemployed and the ring came from a gumball machine. (What? He was needy and angry--hott!)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:03 PM
horizontal rule
306

299.last: more flexible, maybe. Bendier.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:04 PM
horizontal rule
307

295.last could have been written by me.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:06 PM
horizontal rule
308

Sorry, Chopper. That's really rough.


Posted by: Dave W. | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:07 PM
horizontal rule
309

304: My belt buckle has a bottle cap from this brand set in the center. I usually wear my shirt over it, though.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:08 PM
horizontal rule
310

300, 303: use of calendaring software has no bearing on whether a meeting is *really* open-ended.

I spent the spring and summer organizing and hosting meetings with a rotating cast of about 80 people from just under 20 organizations within my government department. We usually also had remote participation in 5 timezones (from Hawaii to Germany).

It SUCKED. Constant harassing calls and emails for readahead materials, agendas, and other crap.

Ooh, and it all culminated last week in a big nothingburger!


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:09 PM
horizontal rule
311

If I'm meeting with external people, or high muckety-muck grand poobah types at work there'll probably be an explicit in advance agenda. But meetings with close colleagues or my staff (all 2 of them), it'd be much more 'let's chat after lunch about $foo' with little more agenda than that. Isn't that how most people work? (Leaving aside people using specific formal methodologies)


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:12 PM
horizontal rule
312

He says it was a period of mental illness, and there seems to be some support for that -- he was clearly deeply depressed, and there was something very wrong -- but I'm also worried that it wasn't just illness (which I can live with) but a characterological issue. So, that's what I'm trying to sort out.

Oh, this is a tough one. It's great to be prepared to deal with it (the mentally ill need love too!) but also worth saying that it does not make you even a little bit of a bad person if you aren't ready to sign on to it for the rest of your life (mentally ill people are fucking exhausting--to ourselves and our loved ones alike). Worth spending lots of time learning exactly what the story/diagnosis/prognosis and so on will be before you make any long term decisions.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:15 PM
horizontal rule
313

292 Sorry, that really sucks. But the consensus is that you shouldn't marry them (Too soon?)

JMS Isn't there an in between friendship type relationship, one that reverses the previous dynamic to lots of hanging out and keeping the make out fun to a minimum? Then you can both reassess after a year.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:15 PM
horizontal rule
314

Ugh, very sorry, Chopper.

||

I just discovered that a big set of numbers I use all the time at work follows Benford's Law. Originally I was curious if any of the submissions making it up might have been spurious, but it's pretty freaky how closely it matches -- in aggregate, no digit is more than 1.1% off from the predicted probabilities, and most are much closer.

|>


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:36 PM
horizontal rule
315

311: To the whiteboard!

I don't think you should marry this guy if you aren't enthusiastic about marrying this guy, jms. Of course, I'm now, hmmm, seventeen years into a really happy monogamous relationship and barely convinced that we should have a wedding because our families would like it so.

On the other hand, I'm horrified at the idea that anyone borrows for an engagement ring. I assumed the 20th century point was to test whether the guy was capable of living on less than his full current salary, since some of it was about to go for supporting a family.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:38 PM
horizontal rule
316

292: I am so sorry, Chopper. That sucks.


306: I'm quite bendy, actually. But terribly responsible (ok, uptight) and a complete slob. I assume it's one of those two things that does me in. Bendy and needy can offset crazy. I need something to offset uptight slob.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:39 PM
horizontal rule
317

A maid, six dozen plastic bins, and a sharpie?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:43 PM
horizontal rule
318

Have just looked up ALS and am horrified as well as sympathetic, Chopper.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:52 PM
horizontal rule
319

a big nothingburger!

So you've discovered my weightloss secret.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 3:54 PM
horizontal rule
320

This thread is INTENSE.

Sorry, Chopper.

is it normal for someone in your workplace to frequently wear a prominently displayed belt buckle that reads "Superstar!"

It's not normal in my workplace, but it will be because I'm totally doing that.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:06 PM
horizontal rule
321

OK, this one doesn't read "Superstar", but I'd rather get it than an engagement ring.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:09 PM
horizontal rule
322

I need something to offset uptight slob.

Hot?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:13 PM
horizontal rule
323

322: If you're going to flirt properly, that shouldn't be a question.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:15 PM
horizontal rule
324

is it normal for someone in your workplace
to frequently wear a prominently displayed
belt buckle that reads "Superstar!"

Start playing the relevant verses of "Gay Bar" whenever he walks by. If he doesn't approve, he's not really a superstar.


Posted by: X.Trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:21 PM
horizontal rule
325

I never flirt properly.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:21 PM
horizontal rule
326

On second thought, that would get old really, really fast.


Posted by: X.Trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:24 PM
horizontal rule
327

nosflow isn't a gentleman!


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:25 PM
horizontal rule
328

I'm a gentleman where it counts.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:32 PM
horizontal rule
329

That's what she said!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 4:51 PM
horizontal rule
330

322: I guess it's time to run a vacuum...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 5:24 PM
horizontal rule
331

I don't know how long I'm going to hang out tonight, but I have to say I think 229 is one of the shittiest things I've seen around here for some time. Seriously? We should all shun people "with illness"? Even taking this as limited to mental illness, what the fuck?

People with illnesses (of all sorts! Including mental ones!) are capable of all kinds of relationships, including rewarding and fulfilling relationships that are not just punishing burdens to the other people in them. Do some people with mental illnesses act like jerks in their relationships? Certainly. But I think we all know that many people with no illnesses of any kind are equally likely to act like huge jerks in their relationships.

People who act like jerks deserve to not be dated. Full stop.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:17 PM
horizontal rule
332

Yeah, it is a very different thing to say that someone's illness doesn't mean that you are obligated to suffer their jerkishness than it is to say "avoid illness! you don't need that!"


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:22 PM
horizontal rule
333

I think my negative focus on miss montana's money-dependent ways has obscured the issue. it's more like awb's: this chick is mean and horrible to him, right in front of us, so we can only imagine how mean and horrible she is in private. generally the money tends to be a proxy for feeling emotionally hurt about stuff. my sister and I adore our brother and can't think of delicate enough ways to say "she's being mean to you" that don't sound like "you're an idiot for going out with her" or "I don't think anyone's good enough for my baby brother so you can ignore all my particular opinions." my brother was, indeed, still paying off the ring for horrible first wife when she dumped him after one year, so that shit happens.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:49 PM
horizontal rule
334

moneywise there is a limited pie to be divided between my children and my brother's future children, but I want him to have kids NOW so my children can have cousins when they are little. I don't like the idea of montana having kids, and then taking the kids away from us and making extravagant financial demands all the time, which I can...imagine.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 6:55 PM
horizontal rule
335

I would never have married Blume if she ever exhibited any signs of illness, mental weakness, or genetic inferiority. Who would stand for that? My time is precious.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:07 PM
horizontal rule
336

Plus you want to marry up.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:17 PM
horizontal rule
337

My (maternal) grandfather always said my grandmother had married up. It is clear with the benefit of hindsight that the scale on which he was measuring is "being an asshole".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:24 PM
horizontal rule
338

331, 335: To be fair to Megan, I don't think she was saying "don't be involved with someone who has spells of mental illness," but rather, "don't be involved with people whose spells of mental illness lead them to break up with you." That is to say, that there's a parenthetical "(untreated)" implied in the advice.

I don't entirely agree with that advice either, but it's a much more reasonable thing to say, I think.


Posted by: Mme. Merle | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:28 PM
horizontal rule
339

My time is precious.

"Thief, Thief, Thief! Tweety's time! We hates it, we hates it, we hates it forever"


Posted by: Opinionated Gollum | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:32 PM
horizontal rule
340

churrau hanim.


Posted by: PYANFAR'S OPINIONATED GRANDMOTHER | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 7:54 PM
horizontal rule
341

Thief, Thief, Thief! Tweety's time!

Just so.


Posted by: Peter Lorre | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:09 PM
horizontal rule
342

Tweety kissed me when we met,
Jumping from the chair he sat in;
Time, you thief, who love to get
Sweets into your list, put that in:

Say I'm weary, say I'm sad,
Say that health and wealth have missed me,
Say I'm growing old, but add,
Tweety kissed me.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:16 PM
horizontal rule
343

People with illnesses (of all sorts! Including mental ones!) are capable of all kinds of relationships, including rewarding and fulfilling relationships that are not just punishing burdens to the other people in them.

For certain values of "punishing burdens," values that many people consider reasonable, people with no illnesses at all probably can't pull it off.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:23 PM
horizontal rule
344

I read Megan as saying that if someone's behavior is completely unacceptable to you, you aren't actually obligated to pretend that it's fine just because it comes along with a diagnosis of a mental illness.

I am more sympathetic to this advice because I've seen a number of friends being treated horribly by love interests who get away with it because they're mentally ill. More second chances, more tolerance of abuse/manipulation, etc. This isn't saying that one can't or shouldn't make accommodations in some cases, but that it's okay to have your own standards of how you need to be treated, even if the other person genuinely can't respect them, and even if it means breaking up.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:34 PM
horizontal rule
345

That's a pretty, uh, charitable take on "don't live with illness".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:42 PM
horizontal rule
346

I read Megan as saying you should set sick people on fire and throw them off the roof.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
347

I don't think I understand 343, but I'm going to bed so maybe you can explain it to me tomorrow.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:04 PM
horizontal rule
348

I saw a teaser for a show called "Yukon Men." They were going out to shoot black bear because otherwise the bears "might eat [their] kids." It is much more amusing to imagine Teo on this show.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
349

345: When she's specifically directing it to someone who has an ex-boyfriend who treated her badly and is saying "oh, but I was ill" while trying to get back together? It isn't really particularly charitable to read someone who says don't get re-involved someone with an illness who treats you cruelly and dumps you, even if you know it's not their fault as meaning that you shouldn't get re-involved with someone with an illness who treats you cruelly and dumps you, even if you know that it's not their fault.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:08 PM
horizontal rule
350

I love how every time I comment in a thread these days people start talking about bears and stuff.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:09 PM
horizontal rule
351

Sometimes it's moose.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:12 PM
horizontal rule
352

Anyway, it's extremely unlikely that black bears are going to eat anyone's kids, and people who say things like that probably just want to shoot some bears.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:12 PM
horizontal rule
353

Have you had any of that birch syrup yet?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:13 PM
horizontal rule
354

Gonna shoot me a bar.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:13 PM
horizontal rule
355

I have! It's good.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:13 PM
horizontal rule
356

352: Yes, but I am looking forward to the episode of Yukon Men where the drama involves a linguistics thread and someone being WRONG on the internet. Also, moose.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:14 PM
horizontal rule
357

354: When you were only 3?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:15 PM
horizontal rule
358

Yes, but I am looking forward to the episode of Yukon Men where the drama involves a linguistics thread and someone being WRONG on the internet.

I would dominate that episode, but I don't actually live in the Yukon.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:18 PM
horizontal rule
359

229 331

I agree with Megan, no one should feel obligated to seriously date or marry someone who is likely to make them unhappy. It is in fact foolish to do this. It doesn't really matter if they are going to make you unhappy because they are mentally ill or because they are a jerk a distinction that I don't think is always clearcut in any case.

Of course you don't want to overreact to minor mental problems, nobody is perfect. But you don't want to underreact either. Mental problems can be serious and basically untreatable and it is unwise to pretend otherwise.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:20 PM
horizontal rule
360

Maybe I could try to get a visiting position here.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:20 PM
horizontal rule
361

354: When you were only 3?

?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:31 PM
horizontal rule
362

neb is apparently not Davy Crockett.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:32 PM
horizontal rule
363

I share Cala's reading. I am aware of all internet traditions, but one actually isn't required to read other people with a maximum lack of charity. Megan is just an imaginary person on the internet, but we all have a general sense of where
she's coming from.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:32 PM
horizontal rule
364

I said gonna shoot me a bar.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:33 PM
horizontal rule
365

What about "whip the Creeks," neb? Gonna do that too?!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:36 PM
horizontal rule
366

What do you think I am, some weak-ass Cú Chulainn knockoff?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 9:48 PM
horizontal rule
367

we all have a general sense of where she's coming from

My sense of Sacramento is pretty weak, really.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:15 PM
horizontal rule
368

It's very flat.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:16 PM
horizontal rule
369

Having actually dated somebody who was straight up mentally ill, rather than just "all my exes are crazy" crazy, I'm going to second Megan's advice. It's grindingly exhausting and not at all fun once the cork pops. And it can be an incredibly difficult (and sometimes dangerous) situation to extricate yourself from when it becomes intolerable.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 10:53 PM
horizontal rule
370

Having dated several people with straight-up mental illness, I'd happily say that there are some behaviors some people are better at dealing with than others. Being with someone who repeatedly tried to murder me every time he realized that I had conversations with someone other than him? No, it turns out being in a relationship while refusing treatment was probably not good for either of us. Dating someone who was depressed but encouraged by some good mood-elevating sex and humane conversation was something I was much better at.

I'm not taking a position on JMS's dude, though. I don't think I can envision the whole thing from here. Sometimes you look at your life and say, yup, that's my life.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-28-12 11:13 PM
horizontal rule
371

I definitely read Megan as saying something blunt and controversial.

But as I understood it, the key point was "if you're not already in a relationship with them." It's a difference between known unknowns and unknown unknowns. You should expect that in the long run difficulties will crop up in living with anyone, and they might be really difficult in ways that are unforeseeable. Once you've made a commitment, it's a good and noble thing to follow through on that commitment through the difficulties. But just because you know things could get difficult down the line doesn't mean that you should going into things knowing about specific very difficult things. Because you could still get other difficulties cropping up down the line!


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 1:51 AM
horizontal rule
372

Ugh, but I don't want to be good and noble. Although this year has been very good in lots of ways, it's been really difficult living with C because he's "not depressed but miserable about his grandfather dying and doing a (new) job he hates" which makes him horrible. I'd rather he said, oh I'm depressed, and did something about it, because at least then I could be sympathetic. As it is, he just acts like a twat. He should be changing jobs soon. How long do I have to wait to see if he cheers up or just carries on being impossible?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:35 AM
horizontal rule
373

Also, I don't have an engagement ring, so basically I'm under no obligation, is that right?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:36 AM
horizontal rule
374

372: That's rough, asilon, for you both. I'm curious why you feel (if I read you correctly) strongly about the difference between "I'm depressed" and "I'm miserable because of the current shit in my life." Also curious, when you say you wish he'd do something about it what in particular you wish he'd do. If he's changing jobs soon, it sounds like he's at least done one thing to address what he sees as a primary source of his current misery. As for how long you wait, I am a fan (in theory, anyway) of cooling off periods, time away from each other, especially if he is being so constantly horrible and miserable that you're feeling on edge all the time.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:06 AM
horizontal rule
375

I assume "depressed" can then be attacked with drugs and therapy, whereas "circumstantially miserable" is part of the whole twat-diagnosis where not pursuing any improvement is part of the whole contrarian twatness.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:12 AM
horizontal rule
376

That would have been my read, to, HG. I'm resistant to it. It seems at least possible that sometimes changing the circumstances is a more direct, efficient, effective way to pursue improvement than drugs/therapy. The drugs do have all sorts of side effects, risks, etc., after all. It's easy (for me, anyway) to defensively read a distinction btw "depressed" and "circumstantially miserable" as suggesting the circumstances don't warrant the kind of misery the person feels or as a judgment that the person is incapable of handling his/her circumstances. Sometimes the latter is true, of course. But sometimes "you're depressed have some drugs" is too facile. (Mostly, I've grown leery because my own doc had missed something kind of important medically because she wouldn't consider any possibility other than depression for my insomnia.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:33 AM
horizontal rule
377

Maybe it is a charitable reading, but Carla's take was similar to mine. This is the point: "if you are together and can live with illness, do that because it is awesome and you'd hope to get that returned for you."

If jms has an awesome relationship with the guy -- not problem-free but full of mutual respect, affection, and enjoyment, and a reasonable expectation of mutual support -- and he has a mental illness, go ahead, albeit with your eyes open.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:35 AM
horizontal rule
378

To be clear, I am not expressing any opinions on what is or isn't the right approach/diagnosis/analysis for Asilon and C. My only opinion there is that it sounds rough, and I'm sorry to hear it, and I hope it gets better.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:36 AM
horizontal rule
379

372

... He should be changing jobs soon. How long do I have to wait to see if he cheers up or just carries on being impossible?

If his current job is indeed the problem I would expect definite signs of improvement (or at least change) within a month or so.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:58 AM
horizontal rule
380

377

If jms has an awesome relationship with the guy ...

It didn't sound very awesome to me.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:00 AM
horizontal rule
381

I'm sorry to hear that things are still hard for Asilon. I, too, have had some being-the-bigger-person fatigue lately and it's (in my case) both frustrating and makes me feel sort of guilty. I don't think any sort of additional medicine would help Lee and part of it is that she's been a jerk at times and part of it is that she's done the best she could at times but it still wasn't great. She's actually doing well now and yet I still have various stompy "But why can't it be all about ME for a change?" thoughts.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:01 AM
horizontal rule
382

"Why can't it be about me for a change" would be a good name for a liquor of some sort.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:11 AM
horizontal rule
383

"Why can't it be about change for a me?" would be a good slogan for panhandling.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:18 AM
horizontal rule
384

"Change Ys into Bs for me?" would be a good slogan for a graffiti artist.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:24 AM
horizontal rule
385

"Why meant beat meatwang canned she?" wouldn't be a good slogan for anything.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:29 AM
horizontal rule
386

Canned meatwang is a great phrase.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:43 AM
horizontal rule
387

Can't beat it.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:43 AM
horizontal rule
388

Why not get a fresh one?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:48 AM
horizontal rule
389

1. Not dating people who treat you badly is a great goal.

2. Avoiding people with mental illness is not a good way to accomplish this goal.

3. Avoiding "illness" (independently of whether the person with the illness is treating you badly) is shitty. Avoiding people who treat you badly (independently of their health) is laudable.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:53 AM
horizontal rule
390

Canned mentalwang?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:59 AM
horizontal rule
391

"Time to make the meatwangs"


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:05 AM
horizontal rule
392

"Wang and Metawang"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:10 AM
horizontal rule
393

Meatwang Beatwang Manifesto


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:12 AM
horizontal rule
394

I personally am quite grateful people are willing to be in relationships with the mentally ill, (particularly chronically depressed, possibly gay presidents.)

Still, I would never say to any one individual, "you are obligated to deal with my bullshit, because my bullshit comes from being mentally ill."

For every mentally ill person, there ought to be someone who loves and cares for them. There may even be cases where one person becomes obligated to care for a mentally ill person because no one else will. But for the most part, if you aren't up for it, you don't have to do it.


Posted by: Abraham Lincoln | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:18 AM
horizontal rule
395

Can't beat it.

Not without a can opener.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:21 AM
horizontal rule
396

7... 6... 5... 22...

That's (Einstein on the) Mentalwang!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:37 AM
horizontal rule
397

But for the most part, if you aren't up for it, you don't have to do it.

Yes, this. You don't do anyone any favors taking on something you can't handle b/c you think you'll be a bad person if you don't.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:39 AM
horizontal rule
398

When my partner has had job-related unhappiness (which has a couple times been pretty bad), switching jobs has turned things around quite quickly (hard to say exactly how fast because there's often been an anxiously unemployed period first). Of course there's no guarantee your partner's the same way.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:40 AM
horizontal rule
399

I also take issue with the idea that there is an objective standard for "great relationship." Sometimes you just love someone. I'm not saying anyone should use that as an excuse for ill-treatment or abuse, but if a particular part of your relationship doesn't look like that of a "healthy couple" on TV, sometimes it can take a while to realize that it doesn't actually bother you--it just bothers the people around you. It's very easy to say DTMFA from the outside, and when a relationship is somehow non-normative, most people (including friends and therapists) will.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:42 AM
horizontal rule
400

For every mentally ill person, there ought to be someone who loves and cares for them.

I can haz Jodie?


Posted by: LOL Hinckley | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:48 AM
horizontal rule
401

There's kind of an objective standard for a good relationship: does it enhance your life and overall add quality, or does it sap your energy and make you feel worse?

Similar to the needy, attractive people: could you live okay without the other person? (ie, are you with them out of fear of being alone - a miserable baseline that they're saving you from - or are you okay being alone and find that the other person adds quality to a decent baseline?)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:01 AM
horizontal rule
402

Di, I don't really have good reasons for it, I think I've been pissed off for so long I'm past making sense anyway. Although Heebie explains it well. Even if you're miserable for a reason you could still go and get counselling and make plans. The new job thing has been a very recent development, so doesn't quite feel certain to me atm.

A friend of mine's husband was seriously depressed end of last year, beginning of this - off work for months. She said at one point about how she was happy to support him through it because, apart from loving him, he had been a fantastic support to her over the years and had stored up lots of brownie points. And I thought that C hadn't done that at all, and that all I ever really expected of him was to be good company, and now he's not that. So I am probably being horribly shallow and unsupportive. But he just keeps acting like a twat, to me and to the children, and whenever I try to be nice he pisses me off again!


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:03 AM
horizontal rule
403

What's his reaction when you say something along the lines of "Your twattiness/unhappiness is a problem, and I don't know how to fix it. What are we going to do?"


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:07 AM
horizontal rule
404

And because I've never had a job that consumed my entire life, I probably find it hard to properly empathise with him now - he did his previous job for 9 years and truly loved it. Took this current one last October knowing full well it would be more stress, less fun, but thinking that it would be a good next step. (Somewhat ambitious man.) And it is more boring and more crappy than imagined. New one should be perfect for him, and if all goes well, could happen by the end of the year. So am hanging on.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:09 AM
horizontal rule
405

403 - probably something along the lines of "well I don't know either!" and then disappearing to bed. (No matter the time of day.)


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
406

Ugh.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:13 AM
horizontal rule
407

Everyone gets to decide how much other people's baggage they're willing to and capable of carrying. It's really that simple. You either make those decisions consciously or you break when the load gets too heavy. (Analogy ban can go fuck itself)

I've done the intensive care nurse thing several times, sometimes as a duty, sometimes for love. There's not a fucking chance in hell of me signing up again given knowledge in advance. If that means missing out on someone I might love, so be it.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
408

So, let's be clear, everyone deserves compassion and love. Judging people based on their actions, not your assessment of their illness, is the right thing to do. But, from experience, if you are contemplating marrying someone with a real mental illness you need to get ready for an extremely difficult life and set of circumstances. Including that things will be very erratic. Also, "I'm the kind sane one and you're the interesting crazy one" is a tough foundation for any relationship. Which isn't to say that all people don't have flaws (they do) or that mental illness is untreatable (it isn't) just that it's going to put huge burdens on a marriage and often in ways you don't expect even when you know generally it will be a burden.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:22 AM
horizontal rule
409

Judging people based on their actions, not your assessment of their illness, is the right thing to do.

No, their capabilities can be important too. I'm all for the glow of love and devotion, not so much for the falling down the stairs in the dark.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:33 AM
horizontal rule
410

Once you are using someone's past actions to judge how they are likely to behave in the future, you are judging their character. Also, you have to use someone's past actions to judge how they are likely to behave in the future if you are going to be in a relationship with them.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:44 AM
horizontal rule
411

There's kind of an objective standard for a good relationship: does it enhance your life and overall add quality, or does it sap your energy and make you feel worse?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:46 AM
horizontal rule
412

What if neither party can always be the kind sane one? Which rules still work? (I'm maundering to myself, or being pessimistic, or seeking test cases, whichever.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
413

"I'm the kind sane one and you're the interesting crazy one"

I'm pretty sure that in most couples, both partners secretly believe this. In those cases, though, we aren't talking clinically crazy.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
414

Megan's 229 sort of reads as though she'd missed that jms and her ex were together for 9 years, and as far as I remember from her past comments about things, were quite happy. It sounds like jms is responding to the ex's new overtures in the way most people would: she's gun-shy and cautious, but after 9 years, you can't help but listen to what they have to say. Since you probably love them.

Everyone's going to have a different measure for what counts as a dealbreaker; for Megan, it's apparently illness (or any other form of weakness, I suspect). For others, it might be financial -- some people won't get into a serious relationship with someone who doesn't bring in a rather good income.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:03 AM
horizontal rule
415

411: IMX that's right. It's my standard for estimating the "health" of relationships and activities.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:12 AM
horizontal rule
416

It's a long hard journey, and if one isn't using 'nearly always makes a good faith effort' as a criterion in choosing companions, it's going to seem longer and be harder. Is popping out a big ring on the state of the relationship as jms has described it really a good faith effort? Obviously, only jms can judge. I might well have been tempted to respond with 'what, are you nuts?' as insensitive as that would surely have been.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
417

I like Carp's formulation. I understand the appeal of the compelling-but-difficult-relationship, but, as I get older, I feel more and more that life can be very hard and I'm glad that my relationship, at least, is easy.


Posted by: Mme. Merle | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:20 AM
horizontal rule
418

...life can be very hard and I'm glad that my relationship, at least, is easy.

Exactly so. I've never understood the notion that a good relationship needs hard work to maintain it. If there's lots of sweat involved something is wrong.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:29 AM
horizontal rule
419

Maybe I am sensitive about this issue because I am a difficult person to love, and I tend to be attracted to other difficult people. I really try not to date anyone because I know what a burden I am. It's been four years since I even tried to date anyone on any level. I seem to be relatively easy and unburdensome as a friend, so I maintain what intimacies I can that way. I used to fantasize about having one of those easy relationships where you just like each other and have a nice time, but when I find people like that, we end up just being friends with absolutely no desire for more. I am fine with the idea of being single for the rest of my life, but, as someone who watches far more burdensome and demanding folks get showered with care, it is occasionally confusing.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:38 AM
horizontal rule
420

418: I'd say it's not that a good relationship *needs* hard work to maintain it, but that, down the road, it may. I myself go into longer term relationships that are easy -- as in, 'we're at ease with each other, this is so not-hard, we're easy together, enjoy one another's company to an unusual degree' -- but I haven't yet found that to last more than half a dozen years before something or other comes up. Someone loses a job, a parent dies, someone becomes ill. It's a lucky state of affairs if the easiness lasts the rest of your lives.

Carp gets it right: making a good faith effort is key.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:01 AM
horizontal rule
421

Still trying to square the circle, eh?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:03 AM
horizontal rule
422

Emerson!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:05 AM
horizontal rule
423

I don't really know how to articulate the difference between easy-as-friends and easy-with-a-spark.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:06 AM
horizontal rule
424

Emerson! Help us! Also, how are you, sir?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:19 AM
horizontal rule
425

||

Would a brothy soup with tortelli and spinach freeze well?

|>


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:28 AM
horizontal rule
426

No, I don't think so.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:29 AM
horizontal rule
427

426: Agree.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:32 AM
horizontal rule
428

I have never really understood the "these things take work" line either. What sort of work? In what way do you think you're difficult?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:32 AM
horizontal rule
429

I am well and lurk occasionally. I am self-publishing my complete works, readers or no.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:33 AM
horizontal rule
430

Roasted red pepper and chickpea soup? It's blended and looks like tomato soup. Would that freeze well?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:35 AM
horizontal rule
431

430: Yes.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:36 AM
horizontal rule
432

430: Yes. (The other one would be bad because pasta tends to turn to mush. )


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:36 AM
horizontal rule
433

I have never really understood the "these things take work" line either. What sort of work?

Being willing to have an adult conversation where you work to not be defensive, are on the same team as the other person, don't see the pie as finite and their gains as your losses, or where you always bolt and distance yourself when the other person wants to have such a conversation. (A good friend recently ended such a relationship. They were great at dating each other, but when they moved in and had to navigate actual issues, he turned into a petty little shithead.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:38 AM
horizontal rule
434

Blume and AWB: no sour-faced hatebags, they. Sweet-faced bags of right.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:38 AM
horizontal rule
435

Ok, thanks you guys. Soup swap tomorrow. 6 quarts of roasted red pepper and chickpea soup coming right up.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:39 AM
horizontal rule
436

I'm extremely puzzled by the idea that a long term relationship doesn't take work. What universe are you living in in which people are easy and breezy forever? Being attentive to someone else over the long term is difficult and takes work.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:42 AM
horizontal rule
437

Maybe it's like the "if you don't know who the sucker is" line in poker. "If you don't know what needs work in the relationship, you're the one who needs work."


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:44 AM
horizontal rule
438

If there's lots of sweat involved something is wrong.

To each their own, of course. But I've found sweaty moments can add a lot to a relationship.

In all seriousness, life's complicated. Relationships are complicated. Sometimes relationships are hard because the relationship challenges you and you are growing. Sometimes they are hard because you are trying to challenge a pain in the ass to grow. Sometimes a challenging relationship is a pain in the ass because everything else in your life is challenging at the same time and you need something other than challenge from the relationship at that particular point.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:44 AM
horizontal rule
439

I'm extremely puzzled by the idea that a long term relationship doesn't take work.

Take two conflict-avoidant people who are capable of having mature conversations when they really need to.

Not the only way to have an easy relationship, but certainly one recipe.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:47 AM
horizontal rule
440

429: I am self-publishing my complete works, readers or no.

Well, let us know when they come out. I miss you around the parts in which you used to be seen and read. I'd actually have liked to hear what you might want to say about the recent internet hullabaloo over the Conor Friedersdorf piece in the Atlantic (I assume you know what I mean - see LGM). On the other hand, a case can be made that not much more needs to be said.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:47 AM
horizontal rule
441

Take two conflict-avoidant people who are capable of having mature conversations when they really need to.

I'm not sure where on the pat/smug/unrealistic spectrum this falls, but it's somewhere on there.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:50 AM
horizontal rule
442

Oh get over yourself. My parents have an easy relationship. I have a belief that many couples on Unfogged have easy relationships.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:51 AM
horizontal rule
443

Maybe, but I strongly doubt that those easy relationships just happen, which is what you seem to be saying.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:52 AM
horizontal rule
444

In what way do you think you're difficult?

My case is kind of weird because I was emotionally neglected for the first 12 or so years. I was having a really hard time living in reality, had horrible nightmares and hallucinations, and found social interaction incredibly painful, and when I asked for help or love, I was told real Christians don't feel unloved--maybe I wasn't really saved and should consider eternity rather than the petty circumstances of this life, etc. Around puberty some of my mental illness, whatever it was, got smoothed out, and my parents eventually grew to love me in their weird and deeply insufficient way. So I come across as pretty social and charming, but I don't really have that bone-level recognition some people seem to have of what it's like to be loved. I'm relatively intimate with friends, but it's very very hard to trust people in the way they want to be trusted, and betrayals of my squinting, sidelong attempts to trust people with my feelings are just shatteringly, irrecoverably horrible. I guess sometimes I feel a longing that someday someone--maybe even a really good analyst--could help me push some of those buttons without then dropping me off a cliff, but that seems unlikely. And dyadic relationships of the emotionally-intimate kind can't really happen until I stop being so terrified of those buttons getting pushed.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:52 AM
horizontal rule
445

And the idea that being "capable of having mature conversations when they really need to" is a sufficient relationship salve is just transparent smug bullshit.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:53 AM
horizontal rule
446

437 - I laughed, because I guess that's true at the moment.

Maybe in general it's just the terminology that confuses me. I don't think of the sort of stuff listed above as work, it's just what you do for/with someone you love. I don't think of doing that sort of thing for the children as work either.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:54 AM
horizontal rule
447

it's just what you do for/with someone you love. I don't think of doing that sort of thing for the children as work either.

Yeah, that just sounds like a terminological difference. We're talking about the same stuff. I'm just pissed at Heebie because she seems to think that having a "mature conversation" is enough to make a relationship seem "easy" which is pretty pernicious advice, generally, IMO. For example, I'm sure that AWB is pretty capable of having a mature conversation and may even be pretty conflict-avoidant.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:56 AM
horizontal rule
448

443: I can only speak about my own relationship, which really will sound smug and pat. But it helped a lot that I was working with a therapist when I started dating Jammies, who helped me determine what I considered ground rules for negotiating conflict. Jammies didn't find those rules too onerous, and things were pretty smooth after the first year in.

(I'm sure life will toss us obstacles that are hard and rough to deal with. I'm not saying that things will always be smooth. But in the absence of external-driven problems, things are generally easy.)

I know my parents had to navigate some issues around my mom doing too much housework in their first year or two of marriage. Aside from that, their narrative has always been that they talk things out pretty easily. From what I've seen, that seems to be the case.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:57 AM
horizontal rule
449

There's work, and there's work. There's I'm working hard to feed the hungry/ made beautiful art/ cure cancer because I've decided that's what's meaningful to me, and there's I'm going to drag myself to a shit job where I get abused by my boss because I can't imagine anything better. Relationships definitely entail the first kind of work, but shouldn't require the second.


Posted by: Mme. Merle | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:58 AM
horizontal rule
450

I'm also puzzled by the notion that being capable of having mature conversations when they really need to is something other than being capable of doing the work of a good relationship. Maybe it looks easy from the outside. Maybe it looks even feels easy because they are used to it (the way 7 miles is apparently a lot easier for my 5-month pregnant sister-in-law than it is for me... ). But it is real work.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:59 AM
horizontal rule
451

And the idea that being "capable of having mature conversations when they really need to" is a sufficient relationship salve is just transparent smug bullshit.

I don't know what to tell you. (Besides fuck you?) There are actual things that are destructive in conversations, and actual things that are constructive in conversations. See 433 for a list of things that don't work. It's just skills which can be learned, but when one or both people lack those skills, it's going to completely wreck any ability to resolve conflict.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:00 AM
horizontal rule
452

My experience is that couples with "easy" relationships have relatively few demands of each other. Great if you're a fairly self-contained, successful person who would probably be totally cool being single, but for everybody else, a lot easier said than done.

Also, and this may very well be colored by the three saddest break-ups I've seen recently, it sure seems like there are a lot of people whose relationships look super mature and solid and fun and loving, and what you're really seeing is both partners working really hard to give that impression because they are, at least subconsciously, aware of the core of instability and unhealthiness that is at the center of the relationship.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:01 AM
horizontal rule
453

I'm also puzzled by the notion that being capable of having mature conversations when they really need to is something other than being capable of doing the work of a good relationship.

I think you're arguing with Halford and not me? This is consistent with what I think.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:01 AM
horizontal rule
454

For the most part, C and I have had an easy relationship over the years. That's been through a sad and trying bit at the beginning (from outside, not between us) and 4 kids, and normal family ups and downs around us. But we've always just got on. When the children were babies we realised we had to stop having competitions about who was more tired. Our arguments were more likely to end with one of us starting to giggle when the other one said something ludicrous. We have never in 17 years argued over money. I don't like it all being an effort.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:03 AM
horizontal rule
455

Sure, an ability to converse well is important, and there are ways of having better or worse conversations. It's the idea that this can take the place of dealing with all of the other difficulty and burden that comes up with dealing with another person is a problem, and is kind of annoying (at least to me). There's a lot more to love, care, etc. than just being able to talk things through.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:03 AM
horizontal rule
456

I guess I'm the sucker, then.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:05 AM
horizontal rule
457

448: things were pretty smooth after the first year in

A young woman of my acquaintance, who had just started a breathlessly passionate and long-overdue love affair with a fellow I know, asked me "Natilo, is it always hard the first year?" And I replied: "Yes, it is always hard the first year. After that, eh, you take what you can get."


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:05 AM
horizontal rule
458

449 gets it exactly right. I was perfectly happy beavering away to cure cancer and now my lab partner has turned into a fucking nutcase who's impossible to work with.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:07 AM
horizontal rule
459

I'm not saying that relationships which take more work aren't worth having. Some kids are more work than others. Some personalities are more work than others. The payoff can still be great.

I'm just saying that yes, some personalities create easy relationships. Maybe they're passionless and stale! Maybe you wouldn't want those relationships! But they exist.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:08 AM
horizontal rule
460

I'm really bad at mature conversations because of an inability to not make puns.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:11 AM
horizontal rule
461

I don't know what to tell you. (Besides fuck you?) There are actual things that are destructive in conversations, and actual things that are constructive in conversations. See 433 for a list of things that don't work. It's just skills which can be learned, but when one or both people lack those skills, it's going to completely wreck any ability to resolve conflict.

I think from time to time about Emerson's analogy that relationships are like playing the lottery, and I find it helpful.

You're probably correct that it's more like a game of skill -- it's possible to make decisions which improve the odds, but I still think there's a lot of inherent unpredictability. Some people will get lucky, they will make good decisions and the future won't have nasty surprises, but that doesn't mean that making good decisions eliminates the chance of heartache -- there are too many examples of people who have relationships turn out badly for it to just be the result of bad decisions.

I see a couple of different reasons for that:

1) Small sample size. Yes it's possible to date lots of different people (or so rumor has it, at least), but there's still a limit to the number of serious long-term relationships that one person can have, and a small sample size means there's always the possibility of outlier events.

2) People and life circumstances both change. I often think about how what constitutes good "life skills" now is really different than what was required when I was ten years younger. Life just keeps adding new challenges and requiring new skills and people can be good at one life stage and struggle with the next -- and, of course, people can change their mind about what they want in life.

[The same thing seems to be true of work as far as I can tell -- some people take jobs that look good and have them turn out well, other people take jobs that look interesting and get sucked into something horrible. I think the small sample size is a factor in that case as well.]


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:11 AM
horizontal rule
462

some personalities and circumstances create what for a time may look like easy relationships

With those changes, I'm on board. But life is long. And it doesn't mean that it should be like slaving away unhappily for an evil boss. But even the cancer researcher has days, and maybe even years, when they don't want to go to work.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:13 AM
horizontal rule
463

458: Ha! I wanted to add that I really feel for you. For all my "oh yes, the work of relationships is deeply meaningful," I can get really resentful and indignant when a dynamic that had been easy suddenly gets hard.


Posted by: Mme. Merle | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:14 AM
horizontal rule
464

Some people will get lucky, they will make good decisions and the future won't have nasty surprises, but that doesn't mean that making good decisions eliminates the chance of heartache -

I agree with this, too. There's a skill set that stacks the deck for having a better relationship, and there's a hell of a lot of luck. I'm just saying easy relationships do exist.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:14 AM
horizontal rule
465

Well, I don't want difficulty and burden. I like your list in 433, but I'm not sure what else Halford is thinking about..

Mostly I just want someone to bring me cups of tea, have sex with me, listen when I witter on about the children, and be sympathetic when I'm moaning or ranting. I think I am quite self-contained - it's a sign of my nearness to the end of my tether that I'm talking about this stuff - but I don't think that's a bad thing.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:14 AM
horizontal rule
466

This is all fascinating to me. For many years, before M got super-depressed, I think either he or I, if asked, would unhesitatingly have said that our relationship was both very easy and very happy. We didn't fight much, we enjoyed the other's company, and we were pretty much always able to figure things out together. In retrospect though, this characterization seems nuts. From the perspective I have now, it seems as though we were both pathologically conflict avoidant and incapable or unwilling to voice complaint. And yet, it's undeniable that at the time, we were both happy! It's confusing.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
467

462: Oh, sure. Financial security, stable extended families, non-soul-draining jobs, relatively few health problems. I guess comity, but you're still a jerk.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:16 AM
horizontal rule
468

I don't see any way that money doesn't come into this. In the absence of financial concerns, it's much more likely that communication skills (and conflict avoidance) will make for easy breezy.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:16 AM
horizontal rule
469

It's really the "mature conversation" thing that got me. Just have a mature conversation, don't worry about conflict too much, and your troubles are over! Um, no.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:17 AM
horizontal rule
470

Oh and I apologize prospectively for the "um."


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:18 AM
horizontal rule
471

468 before seeing 467.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:18 AM
horizontal rule
472

Eh, I spent last weekend with a friend whose ex was completely incapable of mature conversation, and that alone sunk the relationship. No financial problems, both content at work, healthy, decent extended families, etc. It's necessary but not sufficient.

But whatever. I'm just saying that easy relationships - with circumstantial luck - do just happen. Which was the original point of contention.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:22 AM
horizontal rule
473

465: I think the list in 433 is inadequate because it treats people in relationships as rational actors, who need to negotiate clearly and respectfully for what they want. It's true that people do need to do that, but other things are equally important--and much harder. Because people in relationships are *not* always rational actors: they bring all kinds of fantasies and projections to every interaction, and the central "work" of a relationship is learning to set those fantasies and projections aside and to love one's partner for the person he or she really is--and be seen and loved in turn.

Oh, and Parsimon's totally right about money. When my partner and I had enough money to buy a dishwasher, we cut our disagreements in half, and hiring a cleaner has pretty much taken care of all the rest. Embarrassingly enough.


Posted by: Mme. Merle | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:27 AM
horizontal rule
474

the list in 433 is inadequate because it treats people in relationships as rational actors, who need to negotiate clearly and respectfully for what they want. It's true that people do need to do that, but other things are equally important--and much harder. Because people in relationships are *not* always rational actors: they bring all kinds of fantasies and projections to every interaction, and the central "work" of a relationship is learning to set those fantasies and projections aside and to love one's partner for the person he or she really is--and be seen and loved in turn.

I 100% agree with this. Also, the finances thing.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:31 AM
horizontal rule
475

and the central "work" of a relationship is learning to set those fantasies and projections aside and to love one's partner for the person he or she really is--and be seen and loved in turn.

I get slightly annoyed at this kind of formulation because it suggests that single people can't grow in a way that will make their next relationship much easier.

I don't think you necessarily implied that, but I've heard that said explicitly elsewhere. It's the reason I tend towards calling it a skill set that can be learned in or out of a relationship.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:32 AM
horizontal rule
476

OT

Heebie,

I was suggesting a post about this site , which seems to combine several unfogged themes.

BTW, has anyone used gmx.com for email? It seems to be sending the subject heading without the text.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:35 AM
horizontal rule
477

475: Oh, absolutely. All relationships, not just romantic ones, are shaped by fantasy and projection (which is why every one should be seeing a psychoanalyst at all times), and so single people do as much of this work as anyone else.


Posted by: Mme. Merle | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:39 AM
horizontal rule
478

even the cancer researcher has days, and maybe even years, when they don't want to go to work

Cancer research is cutthroat and horrible. Those are not happy people.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:48 AM
horizontal rule
479

I have never met someone who is incredibly needy and angry all the time who is single. They're the most sexually attractive people in the world.

People who are just angry all the time and not needy are hermits.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:48 AM
horizontal rule
480

The conflict avoidance part of heebie's list way back whenever really puzzled me. Take two conflict-avoidant people and odds are they'll both be low-grade unhappy for quite a while until they finally maturely initiate a mature conversation.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:51 AM
horizontal rule
481

478: HIV, too, I've learned. Man, the world of high-stakes, soft-money, applied research seems really difficult to this humanist/soft social scientist. You know what else is difficult (but worth it)? Relationships, that's what. Though not always, I suppose. Narrative arc, bitchez. That's what I'm all about.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:52 AM
horizontal rule
482

Maybe I am sensitive about this issue because I am a difficult person to love, and I tend to be attracted to other difficult people. I really try not to date anyone because I know what a burden I am. It's been four years since I even tried to date anyone on any level.

Getting back a bit to the "dating mentally ill" people, I should say that what I had in mind when I wholeheartedly endorsed Megan's 229 was, well, me. I don't think it's just a matter of "do they treat you badly?" or "are they an asshole?": I don't think I'm an asshole when I'm in relationships; I actually think I'm a rather easy person to love; but I still think that I'm a good example of the sort of mental issues that ought to present a very sensible dealbreaker for most people. It's pretty straightforward, in my mind--I've been pretty severely depressed for at least a half-decade, and loving someone who's deeply sad all the time, and you see slowly drifting further away from successful integration into society/economy, must be incredibly painful, even if they're being kind and considerate. (That's what broke apart my last serious relationship, 3 years ago.) I think Abraham Lincoln basically gets it right in 394, but I'd emphasize more the "But for the most part, if you aren't up for it, you don't have to do it" aspect. Obviously this isn't jms's situation, but I think it's entirely sensible to have it be a first-cut, do-not-even-start-getting-involved-with-this-person criterion.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:52 AM
horizontal rule
483

I agree with HG, easy relationships can just happen. We're often confused about what people mean when they talk about relationships taking lots of work.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:53 AM
horizontal rule
484

Cancer is also horrible. And sometimes cutthroat. Worse than most relationships, even.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:56 AM
horizontal rule
485

I tend to become really bored with conflict avoidant people. (Or irritated, if it's totally obvious that they're avoiding.)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:57 AM
horizontal rule
486

That's because I grew up in a family in which it was believed that if you ignore it, it doesn't exist.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:59 AM
horizontal rule
487

I know this woman who often says little bitchy things to people, and if anyone ever calls her on one, bleats that she doesn't like conflict. Well don't be a cow then!


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:03 PM
horizontal rule
488

Asilon's funny when she's feisty.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:06 PM
horizontal rule
489

||

Thanks all for the birthday greetings at the other place. Please wish teo a happy birthday too.

|>


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:12 PM
horizontal rule
490

heebie,, I'm mostly teasing, but "relationships aren't a lot of work after years of therapy give you strategies" is basically what most people mean by "relationships are a lot of work." For a lot of people going to therapy would constitute seriously working on the relationship.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:15 PM
horizontal rule
491

Take two conflict-avoidant people who are capable of having mature conversations when they really need to.

I can't speak to how heebie meant "conflict-avoidant," but I read it less as sweeping things under the rug than as something approximating easygoing, not the type to turn little things into a big deal.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:17 PM
horizontal rule
492

Obviously I basically agree, but some people (not me) seem to have those skills without ever needing therapy.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:19 PM
horizontal rule
493

Yeah, conflict-avoidant probably wasn't the best word. Easy-going with short memories for things that pissed them off.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:21 PM
horizontal rule
494

For me, a lot of the work is not turning small disagreements into big ones. That's not work like "oh, I hate doing it" but work like "it actually takes a fair amount of mental effort not to escalate a fight I think I can win."


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:27 PM
horizontal rule
495

I thought I had a short memory for things that piss me off until I got into this ongoing row with my brother. Now I have elephant memory on this one topic and it's really counterproductive.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:27 PM
horizontal rule
496

All relationships, not just romantic ones, are shaped by fantasy and projection (which is why every one should be seeing a psychoanalyst at all times)

If one is Woody Allen, perhaps. Some others grow up.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:40 PM
horizontal rule
497

453: I think I'm agreeing with both of you at heart. But sharing Halford's resistance to you describing this thing that we are basically all agreeing on as "easy."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:45 PM
horizontal rule
498

492: Those people are faking it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 12:49 PM
horizontal rule
499

From the perspective I have now, it seems as though we were both pathologically conflict avoidant and incapable or unwilling to voice complaint. And yet, it's undeniable that at the time, we were both happy! It's confusing.

Oh, this. After my post-divorce healing period I was all ready to face the world and voice feelings and not be so afraid of conflict that I avoided dealing with shit. And I met someone who'd gone through a similar gut-wrenching and healing process and was ready to face the world and all out mutual baggage head on. It was terribly exciting until we realized that we had both been conflict-avoidant in our past lives because we both suck very much at coping with conflict -- for reasons similar to what AWB describes in 444 above (we both had a tendency to shatter easily). Um, no wisdom here. Just, you know, yeah.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 1:03 PM
horizontal rule
500

Hey, totally coincidentally I just found out that (if I didn't know better) one of the few couples I know whom I might have said had an easy relationship (and who have been together since they were 17 and 15) are getting divorced. I'm sorry for their tragedy but am really really glad that they did it just in time for me to bring this up as an example.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:00 PM
horizontal rule
501

Although the example would have been more effective if I'd closed tabs.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:06 PM
horizontal rule
502

No one browsing more than one site at once ever made an effective argument.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:09 PM
horizontal rule
503

b, g, I don't speak your computerized lingo.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:13 PM
horizontal rule
504

Neb is being a nab.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:13 PM
horizontal rule
505

I tend to become really bored with conflict avoidant people. (Or irritated, if it's totally obvious that they're avoiding.)

This explains so much.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:18 PM
horizontal rule
506

not to escalate a fight I think I can win

The only -- way -- to win -- is not -- to play.

Good to know the 80s left me *some* useful wisdom.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:26 PM
horizontal rule
507

But clew, when that one great scorer comes to mark against your name, he writes not that you won or lost, but how you played the game. And you have to play the game to have played it somehow.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:28 PM
horizontal rule
508

So the only way to play well is to lose?

I like this phillosophy.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:34 PM
horizontal rule
509

I have heard like the roar of a rain-filled ford the roar of the Milky Way

And the words of the roar were the greatest lore: "To win, you must not play."


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:40 PM
horizontal rule
510

But that's reiner Unsinn. Winning is only possible within a game of some sort. Unless you're talking about some kind of weaksauce metaphorical "winning".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:46 PM
horizontal rule
511
--"Ye ha' heard, ye ha' read, ye ha' got, good lack! and the tale begins afresh--
"Have ye sinned one sin for the pride o' the eye or the sinful lust of the flesh?"

Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:53 PM
horizontal rule
512

Tomlinson?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:59 PM
horizontal rule
513

Yes! Good for me.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 2:59 PM
horizontal rule
514

||
So this guy who did the workplace shooting here a couple of days ago lived about a mile and a half from me. And, you know, hadn't been in contact with his folx, paranoid delusions, etc. etc. But what I don't get, still, is this knee-jerk reaction on the part of various commentators, like hizzoner the mayor, to say "we can't ever understand this" or "it's completely incomprehensible, a senseless tragedy" or whatever. And it's like, you know what? You take (1) A paranoid guy, (2) A demanding, perfectionist boss, (3) Guy getting fired after a dozen years on the job and (4) liberal gun laws, and what the fuck do you think is going to happen? This is one of the most comprehensible mass shootings I've ever heard of. Jeez.
||>


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:03 PM
horizontal rule
515

Newspeak requires that tragedy be incomprehensible, as far as I can tell.

One of the best responses I've ever heard to a mass shooting was from the ?ravers? who were not killed at an afterparty a few years ago in Seattle; they said, approximately, He was weird and incredibly alone and he probably couldn't feel it when we tried to be friends.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:11 PM
horizontal rule
516

Ugh, I remember that one. Some friends-of-friends were there.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:18 PM
horizontal rule
517

I don't know that they were ravers, exactly. Do they even have those anymore?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:18 PM
horizontal rule
518

Not as many.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:27 PM
horizontal rule
519

I mean I figure I'd know 'em (or at least know of 'em) if there were some.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:28 PM
horizontal rule
520

You have them confused with Bigfoot.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:30 PM
horizontal rule
521

A friend of mine just posted a FB picture from a rave in Stockholm, so maybe I doth protetht too muchth.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 3:40 PM
horizontal rule
522

491, 493: Thanks for the clarification -- I was going off in all directions (in my mind) about my family's truly sweeping-things-under-the-rug ways, and how awful they could be.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 4:19 PM
horizontal rule
523

who were not killed at an afterparty a few years ago in Seattle

One of my cow-orkers, that I didn't know that well, knew a bunch of people at that party and one of his closest friends was killed.

It was sad for many reasons but, among them was that at the point at which he was hired it was clear that he'd previously had some problems with drugs and was in the process of getting his life back together and after that shooting he just fell apart.

It was completely understandable, but still sad and frustrating to watch in a cow-orker.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:00 PM
horizontal rule
524

I like that even when relating something serious and sober NickS continues to use "cow-orker".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:15 PM
horizontal rule
525

||

Bwa! Ta-Nehisi Coates is teaching at MIT this year! See here.

|>


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:33 PM
horizontal rule
526

If a recipe just says "2 cans of garbanzo beans" should you assume that they mean drained or undrained?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:57 PM
horizontal rule
527

Drained.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:58 PM
horizontal rule
528

What's the recipe? I'd be surprised if, when you look at the total recipe act in the total cooking situation, both interpretations made equal sense.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:59 PM
horizontal rule
529

This.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 5:59 PM
horizontal rule
530

Since it's a soup, undrained seems to make sense. But since they also didn't say for the roasted bell peppers (or the tomatoes but I gues they think you peeled fresh ones?) that you probably are supposed to drain everything?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:00 PM
horizontal rule
531

I don't think any quantity of chickpeas makes sense in tres leches french toast.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:01 PM
horizontal rule
532

Or drain everything into a jar, and use it if you need more liquid, I suppose.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:01 PM
horizontal rule
533

I gues they think you peeled fresh ones?

No, in that case they wouldn't specify the amount by volume (and 28oz is a standard can-o-tomatoes size). Mysterious.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:02 PM
horizontal rule
534

Free your mind and the rest will follow, neb.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:03 PM
horizontal rule
535

Nor would they have to specify "unsalted".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:03 PM
horizontal rule
536

533 is a good point.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:04 PM
horizontal rule
537

Anyway, garbanzo juice and tomato juice sound fine in a soup, but roasted red pepper juice seems really oily and gross.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:05 PM
horizontal rule
538

Maybe I should have two separate save jars, ranked according to grossness.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:06 PM
horizontal rule
539

I vote drain it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:06 PM
horizontal rule
540

I don't think you can go wrong either way. If you pour it all in, you can always cook off any excess liquid. If you drain into a coontainer, as you say you can add in more as needed. Looks yummy, which is the important part.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:08 PM
horizontal rule
541

Not even into a save jar? Bold move, Mobes. I like it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:08 PM
horizontal rule
542

Usually if they want you to add the liquid from a canned food, they'll specify. Also, canned bean liquid is super salty.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:09 PM
horizontal rule
543

Also, I can keep the skin on the sweet potato? Just blend it all up?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:09 PM
horizontal rule
544

Sweet potato skin is pretty rough for soup. But sweet potatoes are super easy to peel -- the skin slips right off after you cook it.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:11 PM
horizontal rule
545

Always drain the chick peas. Always. I mean, what is that yuck stuff they come in? Goo, looks like. No goo in the soup.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:14 PM
horizontal rule
546

No gumbo for parsimon!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:15 PM
horizontal rule
547

I think you're using bad garbanzo peans, Pars. This stuff just looks like garbrotho.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:17 PM
horizontal rule
548

I mean, what is that yuck stuff they come in? Goo, looks like.

Why do garbanzo beans come in a can?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:18 PM
horizontal rule
549

Because they can?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:20 PM
horizontal rule
550

Because their wife died.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:20 PM
horizontal rule
551

Oh, that's sad.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:21 PM
horizontal rule
552

They were put there by a man in a factory downtown?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:21 PM
horizontal rule
553

I've never used the liquid from canned beans or the skin from a sweet potato.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:22 PM
horizontal rule
554

Way to deny garbanzo beans agency, Nat.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:22 PM
horizontal rule
555

I'm on record as being generally against goo.

Is there some kind of canned garbanzo bean(s) that doesn't come in what's basically goo? It's not a watery-like substance. It's been a while since I've made garbanzo beans from scratch, and I don't recall whether they make the goo themselves (it's fine if they do), but the canned ones: goo. Bleaah.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:25 PM
horizontal rule
556

Also, I vote you can keep the skin on the sweet potatoes, heebie, provided you've scrubbed them beforehand. Probably too late to mention that now.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:28 PM
horizontal rule
557

I saw something like "How It's Made" for food products, featuring baked beans, at the dentist's office. The thick liquid was not the sauce but was added in on top. I forget what it was exactly.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:30 PM
horizontal rule
558

Speaking of goo, whatever happened to that super homoerotic shaving gel commercial with the butch gym bunny fellow saying "Goo?!" in such a campy way? Can't seem to find it on the webinter.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:30 PM
horizontal rule
559

Dirty Potato Soup?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:30 PM
horizontal rule
560

557: Salt.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:31 PM
horizontal rule
561

Whoever heard of smoked paprika, anyway?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:33 PM
horizontal rule
562

Whoever heard of smoked paprika, anyway?

Hungarians?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:35 PM
horizontal rule
563

And, by extension, mathemeticians.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:35 PM
horizontal rule
564

Baked beans are a different story: that's a syrup. Molasses or brown sugar, I think. At least, that's how it is to actually make baked beans from scratch.

Maybe they put a syrup in other canned beans, because people think it's so awesome.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:38 PM
horizontal rule
565

Hungarians smoke paprika?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:38 PM
horizontal rule
566

Hungarians smoke paprika. Hillbillies smoke crawdads. The latter lead to were amusing confused hippies on an episode of The Beverly Hillbillies.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:41 PM
horizontal rule
567

Why don't you try that third sentence again.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:42 PM
horizontal rule
568

I think Parsimon's been smoking garbanzo beans.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:43 PM
horizontal rule
569

That's a pretty gnarly dentist's office if they make baked beans there.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:44 PM
horizontal rule
570

Smoked paprika is great for BBQ rub.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:44 PM
horizontal rule
571

I just don't believe it exists.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:45 PM
horizontal rule
572

"The later led to annoying stereotyped confrontations with absurdly portrayed hippies on an episode of The Beverly Hillbillies."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:45 PM
horizontal rule
573

Also, canned bean liquid is super salty.

And sometimes weirdly foamy when you run water in it. Definitely drain, and rinse the garbanzo beans while you're at it.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:45 PM
horizontal rule
574

The foamy thing I agree with. I didn't think to rinse them, though.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:47 PM
horizontal rule
575

They'll still be fine. What is sazon? Is it a Goya brand bouillon cube?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:51 PM
horizontal rule
576

Rinsing the bouillon cube won't help.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:53 PM
horizontal rule
577

Drain and rinse, drain and rinse! That is always the rule. I mean, unless you like goo, but I've stated my view there.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:54 PM
horizontal rule
578

I need reassurance that heebie will not add sweet potato skin to her soup.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:55 PM
horizontal rule
579

576 is funny.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:56 PM
horizontal rule
580

I skinned the stupid potatoes! God, there should be some sort of soup-facist meme.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:57 PM
horizontal rule
581

Yeah, I had to look up sazon on the internet. I think now it's Goya for "seasoning", a la tarzhay.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 6:58 PM
horizontal rule
582

I've always wondered about the overlap between that episode of "The Beverly Hillbillies" and the "Star Trek" episode "The Way to Eden", with its wacky hippies.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:03 PM
horizontal rule
583

I ate the potato skins. And drank most of the tomato juice. I don't know why I enjoy eating the by-products of ingredients so much.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:03 PM
horizontal rule
584

I just had several moments when I was horrified that I didn't know about this foreign seasoning, tarzhay.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:04 PM
horizontal rule
585

That's great.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:05 PM
horizontal rule
586

583: amuse HP and HP by pretending to be a garbage disposal.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:06 PM
horizontal rule
587

Legumes ooze a lot of oligosaccharides, which should be gooey IIRC, and also give some people digestive trouble, so you might as well rinse them. The yuppie beans produce a thick and delicious liquor that I think of as `makes own gravy', presumably the same thing.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:07 PM
horizontal rule
588

"Makes own gravy" draws my mind to a brand of dog food.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:08 PM
horizontal rule
589

Am I going to hate myself for choosing a recipe that calls for a stick blender? We've got a regular blender. Keep in mind that I've tripled the recipe and this is all going on in a massive pot.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:08 PM
horizontal rule
590

It'll be more annoying, but you can just blend it in batches. Not self-hate worthy.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:10 PM
horizontal rule
591

589: Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all, but blending that soup in a blender will be a chore.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:11 PM
horizontal rule
592

Yeah, you're going to hate yourself. For the future, get an immersion blender: they really are great, and not at all expensive. (Seriously, best kitchen appliance I've provided myself in the last 10 years, after the food processor.)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:15 PM
horizontal rule
593

This soup better be awesome, or else I'll lie and say it is.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:15 PM
horizontal rule
594

Do you have a hedge trimmer? You can just stick that in the pot.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:17 PM
horizontal rule
595

I mean, I don't know if it'll work or whatever.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:17 PM
horizontal rule
596

I don't think a hedge trimmer makes sense in tres leches french toast.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:31 PM
horizontal rule
597

Have we ever definitively established why the British put their toast on those cooling racks before they eat it?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:37 PM
horizontal rule
598

So it doesn't get soggy.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:41 PM
horizontal rule
599

I don't hate myself! Thank god I'm so resilient.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:45 PM
horizontal rule
600

Kobeans!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:49 PM
horizontal rule
601

It'll get soggy eventually.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:52 PM
horizontal rule
602

Dang, tripling the recipe made 6 quarts exactly. I thought I'd have enough leftover for dinner tomorrow.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:52 PM
horizontal rule
603

Probably would have been more if you'd used the peels of the potatoes and the liquid from the chickpeas.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 7:53 PM
horizontal rule
604

You think I should add it in? I could just take two inches off all six containers and replace it with foam goo and skin scraps. Easy-peasy.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:03 PM
horizontal rule
605

You could just cut it with water.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:08 PM
horizontal rule
606

Or Fanta.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:12 PM
horizontal rule
607

That'll definitely get it soggy. Better to use a hedge trimmer.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:13 PM
horizontal rule
608

Too late!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:13 PM
horizontal rule
609

Anyway it tastes good.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:21 PM
horizontal rule
610

And thus we conclude the Heebie Makes Soup portion of the thread. Good job, everyone!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:24 PM
horizontal rule
611

It made me hungry for something with chickpeas. We have hummus, but it seems late to eat.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:26 PM
horizontal rule
612

Plus who can eat with so many worries about Wisconsin.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:30 PM
horizontal rule
613

I think everyone here can feel pretty good about this soup. Good job team.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:33 PM
horizontal rule
614

We could have an Unfogged soup swap if we were willing to pay for postage and risk food poisoning.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:34 PM
horizontal rule
615

We couldn't have done it without heebie-geebie.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:35 PM
horizontal rule
616

She's elusive! Boogie oogie oogie.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:38 PM
horizontal rule
617

615: heebie-heebie begs to differ.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:41 PM
horizontal rule
618

I'm done worrying about Wisconsin.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:42 PM
horizontal rule
619

I beg for fun. It's no biggie.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:43 PM
horizontal rule
620

366: No, a Xerxes wannabe, obviously.


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:45 PM
horizontal rule
621

"Will make soup for differ"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:46 PM
horizontal rule
622

I'll make the hell out of some soup. I'll make soup circles silly around you. It'll be crazy.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:49 PM
horizontal rule
623

Cú Chulainn is my dog's nickname. He's obsessed with attacking water, to the point that if I hold him back I can feel him shaking.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:50 PM
horizontal rule
624

I narrowly avoided having him kick me in the junk three times in a row while stretching on the couch. Between that and the soup thing, I feel like I've accomplished quite a bit today.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:51 PM
horizontal rule
625

564: Yes, they did cook it in something sweet, and that liquid went in the can, but then it was covered with something else, the same stuff one sees upon opening the can.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:56 PM
horizontal rule
626

We're supposed to feel a sense of accomplishment on a Saturday? I don't know if I can go for that.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 8:59 PM
horizontal rule
627

I feel a very mild sense of accomplishment for realizing the solution to a stupid computing difficulty, and just almost emailed the student I'm working with to explain it, but held back because (a) do I want this student to know I'm lame enough to be thinking about this at midnight on a Saturday night? and (b) do I want to establish the precedent that it's okay to exchange emails with me about work on a weekend? I think I don't.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:01 PM
horizontal rule
628

I did a bunch of stuff today. I feel very accomplished.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:02 PM
horizontal rule
629

Did it involve bears?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:04 PM
horizontal rule
630

Oh, wait, it involved getting older. Happy birthday! Also to Bostoniangirl.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:21 PM
horizontal rule
631

That could involve bears.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:31 PM
horizontal rule
632

I am hundreds of comments behind but I have a friend who once posted on his blog that if you could find someone who was 1) kind, and 2) fascinating--under duress he consented to add 3) hot--being in a relationship was easy. I think I got him to admit at some point that this was not necessarily true, but the idea tormented me for years that I couldn't do this simple thing. (And then I did. Not that it has all been simple after that.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
633

629: No.

630: Thanks.

631: I actually did a lot of non-birthday-related (but also not particularly interesting) stuff today.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:07 PM
horizontal rule
634

Someone can be kind, fascinating, and hot, and yet not particularly into you. Being in a relationship with that person isn't necessarily going to be easy—ask my exes.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:09 PM
horizontal rule
635

They have a pill for that now, you know.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:13 PM
horizontal rule
636

Yeah, congrats to both of you on another successful voyage around the sun!

I finally see the golden gate park bison today. They look a lot like the bison I saw on long island. Did some more GGP exploration, made out. I guess that's plenty for a Saturday.


Posted by: X.Trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:16 PM
horizontal rule
637

ALWAYS DRAIN BEANS AND RINSE OFF THE CAN FUNK PEOPLE! THAT SHIT IS NASTY AS FUCK! I WOULDN'T PUT THAT IN A DOG'S BOWL!


Posted by: OPINIONATED ALAMEIDA | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:16 PM
horizontal rule
638

I saw a moose today.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:20 PM
horizontal rule
639

I finally see the golden gate park bison today. They look a lot like the bison I saw on long island.

Yeah, bison mostly just look like bison.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:20 PM
horizontal rule
640

I feel a sense of accomplishment today! I was feeling wretched and damned this morning, and planned to spend the day weeping, but instead I went to a nice orchestra concert, met up with a stranger I met in an airport six months ago who wanted to follow up on a bit of advice I gave her, then went to dinner on the invitation of someone I like a great deal and haven't spent any time with, before going to a party at the home of someone else I like a lot, with a plan with my neighbor that he and I would decide on a reasonable occasion to say we'd had enough to drink and are still charming, but would be taking our leave. And to think I was going to cancel it all!


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:45 PM
horizontal rule
641

(Agreed with 637, too. Seriously, rinse those chickpeas, FFS. Can schmutz is not any kind of ingredient.)


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:46 PM
horizontal rule
642

Woo AWB! Way to go!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:47 PM
horizontal rule
643

I had intimate conversations with various people about our mutual needs, too. In my town, everyone is your new dyadic romantic partner, except for the fucking part.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:50 PM
horizontal rule
644

The latter lead to were amusing confused hippies on an episode of The Beverly Hillbillies.

I tried to read this as a garden path sentence.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:51 PM
horizontal rule
645

In my town, everyone is your new dyadic romantic partner, except for the fucking part.

Be the change, yo.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:53 PM
horizontal rule
646

How is that going in NWern State?


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:56 PM
horizontal rule
647

What?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:57 PM
horizontal rule
648

Sorry, that was an inappropriately chatty question about your personal life in AK. I forget myself.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 10:59 PM
horizontal rule
649

Not inappropriately chatty, I was just confused by the phrasing. And it's going about how you would expect given my track record, which is to say not really at all.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:02 PM
horizontal rule
650

There is friendship, after all. I think I have given up on sex, but good friends are nice.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:03 PM
horizontal rule
651

In my case I have not found that friendship is actually any easier to secure than sex. YMV, obviously.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:05 PM
horizontal rule
652

No, it's usually just as hard. I have been working on being more clear with people about my expectations here, what I need from them and what my limitations are. I don't think I'm ever going to be bestest friends with anyone here, but I do feel like it's necessary to develop a meaningful network of intimacies here that aren't secret from one another. I've never lived in a rural place before, so I'm finding the constraints are different. Nothing can be hidden, so you have to inform people that you know what you're saying is not a secret.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:09 PM
horizontal rule
653

Huh, interesting. I guess I just don't feel like developing a network of intimacies like that is as important for me. I'm also here indefinitely at this point, which changes the dynamics of developing social networks compared to fixed-term conditions.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:17 PM
horizontal rule
654

That makes a lot of sense. It's interesting to think about the difference between short-term and long-term relationships that way.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:20 PM
horizontal rule
655

Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it until recently, but it makes a big difference.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-12 11:27 PM
horizontal rule
656

I saw a moose today.

First time? It's the rutting season, or at least it is for the moose. Make drunken dares with acquaintances about going up to pet one.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 12:21 AM
horizontal rule
657

I've seen them before. No way am I petting one.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 12:23 AM
horizontal rule
658

I was watching two with my daughters at the end of Aug. up one of our local canyons. A couple people were getting way too close. I was excited at the prospect of seeing a moose chase some moron but it didn't happen. I have similarly been disappointed multiple times up in Yellowstone watching bison thinking "fuck yeah we're about to watch this jackass get gored" and then nothing happens.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 12:29 AM
horizontal rule
659

Now everybody got et by bears.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 5:56 AM
horizontal rule
660

Et, et, et. Dang bear buffet round here. Alla buncha carcasses.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 6:39 AM
horizontal rule
661

Read "Eh, eh, eh. Dang bear buffay" or "Ett, ett, ett, dang bear buffette"?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 6:58 AM
horizontal rule
662

"Ett, eh, ett", but otherwise yes, what you said.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 7:02 AM
horizontal rule
663

I went out to a poetry reading by one of Lee's former coworkers and had a lot of intellectually and emotionally meaningful conversations with people I already knew but hadn't seen in a while, which was definitely worth having to talk myself into going out rather than going to bed early. I am very proud of myself for enjoying talking to actual adults who aren't here. Plus our friend's poetry was my favorite of the night, which is a nice thing to be able to say. And then some guy noodled on a ukulele hooked up to a bunch of effect pedals and I was still able to be in bed well before 11.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 7:34 AM
horizontal rule
664

Always leave when the ukelele comes out. Good thinking.

On the animal-sighting front, yesterday I saw a deer on the street by my house. It was two hours after dawn and I have never seen one this far from the park or country. I figure he must be a roving deer looking for a safe place.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 7:52 AM
horizontal rule
665

So'd you let him in?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 7:54 AM
horizontal rule
666

He looked ill and I didn't want to start a relationship under those circumstances.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 7:59 AM
horizontal rule
667

I saw a fox on Friday. Dumb but pretty.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 8:03 AM
horizontal rule
668

200 comments too late but, for the record, AB & I have an easy relationship with no therapy in either of our backgrounds. Our first year was comically easy and happy, except for 2-4 stressful nights, very early, related to BOGF. We have had about 3 tense conversations relating to parenting (she thinks, rightly, that I'm too hard on the kids), but that's about it over 12.5 years. Our ~3 years of being poor did not appreciably change the dynamic; there was generally more stress, but we never took it out on each other.

There was a period maybe 6 months ago when I briefly convinced myself that she didn't like me anymore*, but I think that was largely all in my own head.

* not using Jr. High lingo, I mean that disliked me


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 8:05 AM
horizontal rule
669

I met someone out walking two miniature pigs. The very friendly one was named Oscar. I didn't have the presence of mind to ask if the other was named Mayer. That alone cancels out my accomplishments from yesterday.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 8:06 AM
horizontal rule
670

And by the way, bobcats still rule, and grizzlies still drool.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 8:23 AM
horizontal rule
671

How do you feel about coyotes, Carp?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 8:43 AM
horizontal rule
672

Griz beat them in the season opener. They're in the Missouri Valley conference, and so the Cats only see them if they make the playoffs. They still haven't played a conference game, but going 1-3 to start the season doesn't make playoffs look all that likely.

I heard some coyotes night before last. Love the sound.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
673

No, wait, Illinois State is in the MVC, and beat South Dakota yesterday.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:00 AM
horizontal rule
674

I had a dream the other night that I killed two coyotes (possibly wolves, it wasn't entirely clear) with my bare hands.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:18 AM
horizontal rule
675

Hot.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:32 AM
horizontal rule
676

I had a dream the other night that I killed two coyotes (possibly wolves, it wasn't entirely clear) with my beare hands.
Hotter.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:45 AM
horizontal rule
677

I dreamed last night that I had a headache and decided taking 25 Imitrex was the answer (a friend at work takes Imitrex for migraines and says it makes her dopey, which observably it does) and then I got really stupid, and wondered if I should take 25 more.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 12:40 PM
horizontal rule
678

668.2 Er - so, why did you think she didn't like you if all was so hunkydory?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 1:22 PM
horizontal rule
679

Our ~3 years of being poor did not appreciably change the dynamic; there was generally more stress, but we never took it out on each other.

This is impressive on its own, and also strikes me as the sort of thing that, if you could turn it into a HuffPo article, would stand a one in eight chance of turning into a book deal and a round of talk shows.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 1:31 PM
horizontal rule
680

||

This is an interesting way of conceptualizing grad school.

|>


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 1:33 PM
horizontal rule
681

Yup, that's about right.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 2:55 PM
horizontal rule
682

If we spread enough misinformation, we can bring that edge closer and make it easier for people to get their dimples.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 3:03 PM
horizontal rule
683

Some front-pager should blog this. I feel certain that people can get really outraged over it.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 4:28 PM
horizontal rule
684

683: Yeah, that came up on my FB yesterday from my famous poet friend. My condemnatory comment got like 6 likes!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 4:37 PM
horizontal rule
685

684: it's almost astonishingly stupid. I wonder if the guy has a book coming out or something.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 4:40 PM
horizontal rule
686

I mean, people can be very stupid for no reason at all. But that seems like special-occasion stupidity to me.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 4:42 PM
horizontal rule
687

They had racism, but not in ways we can understand.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 4:47 PM
horizontal rule
688

669: The joke would have been on you if the other pig's name was "Felix"!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 4:57 PM
horizontal rule
689

680: I have never read a shred of evidence that shows that either the American or western publics in general or the decision makers who decided on the camps thought that the Japanese here or in Japan were biologically inferior book.

FTFY.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 5:22 PM
horizontal rule
690

Sorry, that should be to the link in 683. It's really rude when directed at the link in 680.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 5:24 PM
horizontal rule
691

it's almost astonishingly stupid

No kidding. I paused and checked whether I was reading satire when I got to this line:

How many Japanese- Americans were disloyal is not known, but I have never read a piece of evidence from a reliable witness which said that all of them were loyal.

Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 5:54 PM
horizontal rule
692

Okay, I just looked this guy up. I had presumed that he was an expert in something else, but had a (racist!) axe to grind about this issue. But he's an historian of California and, worse, teaches a course on the US during World War II.


Posted by: Mme. Merle | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 6:22 PM
horizontal rule
693

Well, how many historians of California are incompetent is not known, but I have never read a piece of evidence from a reliable witness which said that all of them are competent.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 6:25 PM
horizontal rule
694

I saw an otter today.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 6:28 PM
horizontal rule
695

MA 1961, PhD 1969, both from the UofC. Has anything good ever come from that university? Any chance this guy's become senile?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 6:31 PM
horizontal rule
696

Even the dumbest commenter on that piece isn't as dumb as that piece. I've never read the author's work, but some of it seems to be well-regarded. I'm guessing he's got a specific denialist political axe to grind on this rather than being an all-around total fucking idiot about all history he touches.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 6:33 PM
horizontal rule
697

694: that's nothing. Smearcase sees an otter every time he looks in the mirror.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 6:33 PM
horizontal rule
698

And if the animal rights people ever get into his bathroom, there will be trouble.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 6:36 PM
horizontal rule
699

693: hurray


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 7:08 PM
horizontal rule
700

I'm about 15 pounds from "otter" but I'll take it. Beats the hell out of "pocket cub."


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 7:26 PM
horizontal rule
701

Has anything good ever come from that university?

Is the blog where you want to be asking that?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 8:35 PM
horizontal rule
702

This is impressive on its own, and also strikes me as the sort of thing that, if you could turn it into a HuffPo article, would stand a one in eight chance of turning into a book deal and a round of talk shows.

I vote for kicking it off with a 'Modern Love' column.

I'm frankly surprised that given all the economic stress on the middle class there hasn't been more mainstream pop culture or art related to downward mobility. ('Two Broke Girls' doesn't count). Too scary I guess.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 8:41 PM
horizontal rule
703

701: I considered that, but surely one of the grads here will be able to look past the horror of their experiences to reveal some hidden virtue in the university. Failing that, there are some non-UofC people here who might be able to evaluate it more dispassionately.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:11 PM
horizontal rule
704

Well, there's this, this, this, etc.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:37 PM
horizontal rule
705

||
I was going to post this at the other place, but it's too upsetting. You're welcome.
|>


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:40 PM
horizontal rule
706

Shit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2dx_ginqYU


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:41 PM
horizontal rule
707

What's upsetting about that?


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:44 PM
horizontal rule
708

Processual archaeology?


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:46 PM
horizontal rule
709

I have a vague memory of being very very young and waking my parents up at night, panicky and in tears, demanding to know, basically, "where will I go when I'm dead and gone?!" To which my father reassuringly said, "well, it probably won't happen for a long time."

I think this was a number of years before he insisted I watch the entirety of Aliens, inducing literally hundreds of nightmares over the following half-decade, but in my mind the stories are sort of linked.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:48 PM
horizontal rule
710

er, 708 to 703, pwned by 704, etc.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:48 PM
horizontal rule
711

710: Given the processualists' interest in burial practices it kind of works to 706 too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
712

Inspired by heebie, I have made a cauliflower-and-kale soup, creamed to a nice flecky green. Also, avocados and saffron. Should freeze well. Veg. Yum.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
713

This Frightened Rabbit video is actually a good response to the link in 706--complete with little kids jumping around!

"When my blood stops,
Someone else's will not.
When my head rolls off,
Someone else's will turn.
And while I'm alive, I'll make tiny changes to earth."


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 9:53 PM
horizontal rule
714
From too much love of living, from hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving whatever gods may be
That no man lives for ever
That dead men rise up never
That even the weariest river winds safe at last to sea.

Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 10:08 PM
horizontal rule
715

||

I just saw the Northern Lights through my window!

|>


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-12 10:13 PM
horizontal rule
716

Smearcase sees an otter every time he looks in the mirror.

Smearcase always thinks of otters before himself.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 1:27 AM
horizontal rule
717

That's otterly ridiculous.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 3:50 AM
horizontal rule
718

Smearcase's opinions are fixed and unotterable.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 4:13 AM
horizontal rule
719

Don't be sealy.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 5:05 AM
horizontal rule
720

715: Jealous!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 5:11 AM
horizontal rule
721

715: I saw them years ago in Nebraska. Must have been some strange solar shit happening.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 5:35 AM
horizontal rule
722

NMM to Eric Hobsbawm. I mean, you probably weren't anyway.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 5:54 AM
horizontal rule
723

Nobody's stopping, Blume. Something is wrong with these people.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:31 AM
horizontal rule
724

723: On first read, I missed that comma. It hardly seemed like anyone else's responsibility.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:33 AM
horizontal rule
725

Oh, I mean, I spend three or four hours a day stopping Blume from masturbating to dead, elderly marxists. It's exhausting. Which means I have no time to be policing the rest of you.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:37 AM
horizontal rule
726

The morning radio has little plugs for an Austin dealership called Apple Leasing, which I compulsively hear as App Policing. Apropos of nothing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:40 AM
horizontal rule
727

Are you sure it's not Apo Leasing? I hear he's available. Laydeez.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:42 AM
horizontal rule
728

Oh, you mean Apolicing? It's practically anarchy.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:45 AM
horizontal rule
729

722: he has rejoined the great dialectic in the sky.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 7:03 AM
horizontal rule
730

he insisted I watch the entirety of Aliens

Why?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 7:43 AM
horizontal rule
731

730: The rigorous Marxist commentary on the opposition of capital and labor.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 7:44 AM
horizontal rule
732

In East Boston there's a billboard advertising a police app for reporting crimes. Well, that's what they say it does.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 7:50 AM
horizontal rule
733

A properly Marxist version would have seen the marines and the aliens make common cause as fellow members of the interstellar proletariat, shoot Burke, seize control of the means of production (that squishy tube thingy attached to the Queen) and set up a workers, soldiers and ichor-dripping killing machines' soviet.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
734

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: The MN Orchestra has locked out the musicians, cancelled concerts through Nov. 25th, and is demanding concessions including a 30-50% pay cut. It is so infuriating when non-profits act in furtherance of the worst trends in capitalism.

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/state-of-the-arts/archive/2012/10/mn-orchestra-cancels-fall-concerts-musicians-rally.shtml


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
735

I won't go into the rant about how Aliens, like all other monster movies, is inherently social-democratic rather than Communist in outlook.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 8:05 AM
horizontal rule
736

Christ, I don't know which species is worse: You don't see them fucking each other for a percentage.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 8:07 AM
horizontal rule
737

Oh but you must!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 8:08 AM
horizontal rule
738

re: 734

In my experience, dealing with non-profits or quasi-non-profits via work, they are often utter bastards. I'm pretty sure I've seen more borderline fraudulent or deceptive behaviour from the non-profit sector than I ever do from your actual 'we exist to make money' units.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
739

Christ, I don't know which species is worse: You don't see them fucking each other for a percentage.

"Look, just because it's a hideous slime-dripping armour-plated alien killing machine doesn't mean it's a bad person." --Technician/2nd Arnold J. Rimmer.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 8:16 AM
horizontal rule
740

737 made me laugh out loud.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
741

738: Yes. Their self-recognized moral superiority gives them license to be assholes.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:11 AM
horizontal rule
742

Er - so, why did you think she didn't like you if all was so hunkydory?

Well, it was in the aftermath of one of the JRoth-yelling-at-the-kids episodes, and I'm sure she felt some lingering unhappiness about that, and I just built it up in my mind to "she doesn't like me anymore". After a week or two, I couldn't convince myself that it was the case, so I let it go.

I should note that, when I was a preteen, I had a long stretch of self-loathing* that involved a lot of "nobody likes me (except my family, but that's only natural, so it doesn't count)" moping, so I think it was just a throwback to that.

*not exactly the right word, but I've never been able to capture it


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:16 AM
horizontal rule
743

679: This is impressive on its own, and also strikes me as the sort of thing that, if you could turn it into a HuffPo article, would stand a one in eight chance of turning into a book deal and a round of talk shows.

Yeah, I don't even know what to say about it. Part of it, I think, is that we've been hand-to-mouth since I started my own practice, back in '05. And we were never super-flush before then. So to some extent, it was all a continuum of being not-flush. Also, we've always kept separate finances, so it probably helped a lot to not be looking over each others' shoulders wrt spending: we each tightened our belts and met our obligations and found something extra for little happy-making treats without ever knowing/questioning/judging how the other person pulled it off.

Also, it surely helped enormously that we do the restaurant reviews; presumably few food stamp families get to eat out at a different restaurant every week, which takes a lot of the misery out of poverty.

IOW: I don't think the general public would be very interested in our coping strategies. Separate accounts is in many ways a good idea, but it presumes a lot of good faith/trust that probably accompany a healthy relationship anyway (alternately, of course, it represents the absence of trust; either way, I don't think it works in a marginal relationship).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:25 AM
horizontal rule
744

The link in 683 is a completely unique achievement on the Internet: an online newspaper article dumber than the comments in a newspaper comment section. As one of the commenters said about the author: "The profession should return his PhD for someone who will use it."


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 1:21 PM
horizontal rule
745

Hello everyone. The thing about being needy and posture blew my mind a little.

Re moose, I'm living in my parent's house with my sister til thursday when I finally move back to my apartment, and a moose cow w calf is hanging around in the woods outside the garden. Suddenly being maybe 10 meters from this giant thing staring fixedly at you ,with a that very non-human inscrutable gaze is a bit unnverving, even more so the second time really when it wasn't as exciting.


Posted by: David the Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 4:03 PM
horizontal rule
746

Everything ok, D-TUCk?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:25 PM
horizontal rule
747

You worried the moose ate him?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:33 PM
horizontal rule
748

Wait, is David the Unfogged commenter different that David Weman? I thought Weman, Dave W and DTUC were all the same person. I've already been corrected on Weman/Dave W but don't tell me I've been wrong on all three.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:36 PM
horizontal rule
749

David Weman = David the Unfogged Commenter ≠ Dave W


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:38 PM
horizontal rule
750

It turns out that my confusion was based on a misunderstanding of where moose live. I'd thought it was North Am only.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:46 PM
horizontal rule
751

I thought DW and DW were the same person, and the Unfogged Commenter wasn't.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 6:57 PM
horizontal rule
752

Yeah, they have moose in Europe too, although they allegedly call them "elk."


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 7:13 PM
horizontal rule
753

Same animal, though, hence the beverage "melk".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 7:21 PM
horizontal rule
754

OT: Wow, I am having a little freak-out. My college roommate, with whom I lived for three years, just messaged me on FB. I haven't spoken to her since our junior year, due to some motherfucking huge drama in which she was deeply wrong and evil. I loved that crazy bitch for years before she went bad. Now she seems to have recently gotten married to some hyperchristian and is making amends of some kind. I do what now?


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:31 PM
horizontal rule
755

||

A lesson in how changing a single word changes the meaning of a proverb entirely:

"There's many a slip twixt the dress and the lip."

|>


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:32 PM
horizontal rule
756

What did her message say?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:33 PM
horizontal rule
757

756 to 754, of course.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:34 PM
horizontal rule
758

Something about how a band I used to like was on TV and she thought of me. I just wrote her back. Hyperchristian or no, she was a crazy-good roommate until she lost her shit. I just have surprisingly intense feelings about it, I guess.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:35 PM
horizontal rule
759

I seem not to be able to locate the text of "Among the Blacks" online.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:37 PM
horizontal rule
760

Same animal, though, hence the beverage "melk".

Specialty of an Austrian monarchy.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:48 PM
horizontal rule
761

Uh, that should be monastery.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 10- 1-12 9:48 PM
horizontal rule
762

"Everything ok, D-TUCk?"

Yeah, basically. My aforementioned sister just landed a job, as a librarian, so that's awesome.
Tough labor market and she's a ton of student debt.


Posted by: David the Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 12:16 AM
horizontal rule
763

I guess I wrote about being on welfare here. That only went on for a couple of months, and I've had steady freelance work for two years now, but I'm defintely more anxious as a person since I went through that.


Posted by: David the Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 12:20 AM
horizontal rule
764

Dude I (non-sexually) kissed a rock star. That's how you settle a case, bitches!!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 2:07 AM
horizontal rule
765

If I may briefly violate the sanctity of off-blog, this isn't the first time David has had elk issues.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 2:10 AM
horizontal rule
766

Dude I just did a lip to lip (albeit in a totes nonsexy way) with someone way more sexy than a moose. Fuck you losers! Money!!!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 2:20 AM
horizontal rule
767

Wooooooo!


Posted by: Rh | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 2:32 AM
horizontal rule
768

Yeah, I may have told this story before, but ten years ago or so my dad caught a moose elk alces alces moose bull eating their flowers or plums or something, so he found a stick and threw it at it, forgetting it was a fucking moose. The moose charged, and despite being close to the door, he (my dad) only barely escaped.


Posted by: David the Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 3:18 AM
horizontal rule
769

Tying together various elements of this thread, my nickname for my college roommate is Moosey. We're still friends and I've never kissed her, though.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 4:14 AM
horizontal rule
770

Heebie shows affection by throwing sticks.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 4:57 AM
horizontal rule
771

She was tied up, so I didn't have to throw them very far, see?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 2-12 5:16 AM
horizontal rule