Re: Debate thread

1

At 9! (EST) And my mother has the dumb Yankee game on! So I am in another room. With a bottle of wine. I am 3/4 btocked.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 5:52 PM
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Watching on Al Jazeera. Waiting for guests to arrive.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 5:54 PM
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3

I'm having trouble finding it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 5:54 PM
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I guess there's no pre-show.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 5:56 PM
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Yes there is! On MSNBC anyway. Jesus, this Aurora victim gun control ad is heavy.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 5:57 PM
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Oh, here it is.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:00 PM
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We edge toward 4/4 . . .


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:03 PM
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4/4 time?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:04 PM
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I think drunkard time is 3/4.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:04 PM
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Oom-pah-pah, oom-pah-pah.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:06 PM
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Well, you ought to be btocked. You're drinking on my behalf, so for three.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:06 PM
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The half bottle of Spanish rosé didn't do the trick, but the bottle of txakolina ought to. This is a Spanished themed btocking. Too long, Mittens!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:08 PM
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Goddamn Devil Ray pitching.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:08 PM
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14

It's not a tax cut, it's tax relief.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:11 PM
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Economy tax! Zing!


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:12 PM
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"Gasoline prices have doubled under the president."

Drink!


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:12 PM
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Uh oh romey's kind of being convincing


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:13 PM
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12: I'm drinking American wine, goddamnit. Why don't you go back to Russia?


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:13 PM
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Thank god they both agree about tax cuts.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:14 PM
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20

Not gonna watch it. Wouldn't be prudent.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:15 PM
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Romney is in love with coal. Does anyone know what his tax plan is now, he just promised that it won't increase the deficit, and won't raise rates.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:16 PM
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So, I'm pretty sure it's the shittiness of using my phone for streaming, and not the actual sites to blame, but damn this attempt to watch via the internet is frustrating.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:16 PM
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Romney and coal, sitting in a tree.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:16 PM
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No, Obama don't fall into the trap of actully trying to explain stuff to America.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:17 PM
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Oh dear. Lehrer is letting Romney talk over him and redirect the questions. This is going to go well! Zinger!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:17 PM
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21: his tax plan, as he just explained, is, "who you gonna trust, me or arithmetic?"


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:17 PM
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Fight fight fight. I think he just called obama boy.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:18 PM
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Did Mittens just liken the President to one of his "boys"? Oh, my.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:18 PM
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"His big bold idea is 'Nevermind.' " Good line.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:19 PM
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CNN has the squggile I love the squiggle


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:19 PM
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Are there any of those sites where you can see if voters are live-polling thumbs up/thumbs down on a little ticker tape?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:20 PM
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Exactly. The squiggle.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:20 PM
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33

Live pwning.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:20 PM
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34

The squiggle looks pretty dead.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:21 PM
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Squggile has given up about being interested about taxes


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:22 PM
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Is there any good reason Obama is not saying "Governor Romney, please name several large tax deductions that you are prepared to eliminate to offset your rate cuts"?


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:22 PM
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The main idea behind Bowles-Simpson is trickle-down economics?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:23 PM
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36: On NPR, they said Romney said his plan was to just cap any and all deductions at 17K.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:24 PM
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39

Jim Lehrer is road kill! (This is a pretty good strategy for Romney, actually.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:25 PM
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40

Ugh. Just repeat repeat repeat.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:25 PM
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Squiggle loves Clinton, every time Obama mentions him it trends up.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:25 PM
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The al Jezeera live stream is skipping less than Youtube.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:25 PM
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Squiggle hates bitchy romney


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:26 PM
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Romneys plan has never been tried! If he says so


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:27 PM
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"I actually like you, too."


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:28 PM
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46

I don't really like watching debates.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:28 PM
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Beats watching the Red Sox (unless you are Halford).


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:28 PM
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48

Oh lord. Village types on Facebook are now VERY WORRIED ABOUT OBAMA.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:29 PM
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I know this borrow money from china thing polls well, but it does speak to a really wrong view about how international finance works.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:30 PM
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Did Obama threaten to eat Romney's heart on a sacrificial stone to honor the blood-God Huitzliopochtli? I've set my DVR and am relying on you for real time updates.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:30 PM
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48: SHOCKING, I know.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:31 PM
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Obama's been on defense this whole debate, buyIng into too many republican frames, talking about how it was a good thing he cut the federal payroll by a lot. Shit did Obama just enforce Bowles Simpson? Booooo


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:31 PM
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WE CAN'T AFFORD NOT TO KILL THESE JOB-KILLING JOBS!


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDPA | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:33 PM
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Romney's making sense about deficits, Jesus.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:33 PM
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Yeah he is getting his ass kicked by playing on republican turf. Doesn't help that Mitt is just being so unbelievably disingenuous. Well, being a liar.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:34 PM
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Wait that was short lived, Romney has ruled out raising taxes. You can't close the deficit by raising taxes, tell math.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:35 PM
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I literally cannot watch this shit anymore. Following this here, on Twitter, at TPM and my wife's complaints from the other room. And NONE of you are making me happy so far! Up your games!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:36 PM
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"I need a new accountant! I've sent tons of jobs overseas in my 25 years in business and never got a tax break for it!"


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:40 PM
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Obama. Focus up dude, lady in las Vegas, your losing me. Romney: when you put your zingers in the mouths of your friends it makes you look like a puss.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:40 PM
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"On Social Security, I suspect we have a basically similar position"?!?!?!?!?!?!?


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:41 PM
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58 I actully kind of loved that, own being a caricature of capitalism.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:41 PM
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Point to Obama, correcty names Medicare as the big deficit m.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:43 PM
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Jammies is reading me tweets:

"I'm voting for the first one to make the jerk-off motion while the other one is talking."


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:43 PM
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I already pointed this out at the other place, but I think this may have been a bit much from Obama.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:43 PM
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Obama is passing up a lot of opportunities.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:44 PM
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Obama left him self open on the Medicare thing.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:45 PM
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67

I just tuned in. Both of them look like they need eyedrops.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:47 PM
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68

Obama is playing conservatively this debate, presumably to avoid coming off arrogant or overly aggressive. Maybe it's the right move electorally, but man is it annoying to listen to.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:47 PM
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65: Apparently. There is an election coming up, Professor Boring, let's say we try to win it. For starters, the other dude is lying and the newly found (and fragile) enthusiasm of your base is tied to you not fucking with things that have fucking worked for fucking decades.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:47 PM
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68: He fucked up, he trusted the pundits. FIRE IN YOUR BELLY. Workmanlike = 2nd place.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:49 PM
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Yeah this is seriously aggravating to watch.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:49 PM
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72

This debate will present an interesting dilemma for the fact checkers. Obama is killing on the facts, but will anyone care?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:49 PM
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73

Romney: Medicare is for peons.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:49 PM
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Medicare talk even more boring than taxes.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:51 PM
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I think Romney is a much better liar tonight than he has been previously.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:52 PM
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Romney: Obama wants to take away your healthcare! The Democrats want to help the big banks!

I don't know what's going on here.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:52 PM
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Romney doesn't like to big to fail, once again, lying, but making sense.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:53 PM
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The Romney strategy of just talking over Lehrer and Obama is in fact super effective. Obama makes little meeps but can't get in there. Big Boss Man Romney does not care and talks over everyone all the time.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:53 PM
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72: Yes, Conor fucking Friedersdorf with a good tweet, "President Obama is debating as if his audience is a Washington Post fact-checker."

71: I'm not even watching and I'm aggravated. You watchers need to up your game big time.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:54 PM
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Follow up to this debate #1: Jim Lehrer goes on the next iceberg.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:55 PM
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Romney: savior of Medicare and scourge of the big banks.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:55 PM
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Romney just started talking again during Barry's answer and Barry let him.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:55 PM
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I'm pinning my hopes that the media spin is that Romney yet again lied his pants off, the way it was for Ryan after his speech.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:56 PM
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God, this is the worst. I was already grumpy before I turned this on, and now I want to smash something.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:56 PM
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85

Im listening on the radio now. No idea what you all are talking about; Obama seems Presidential; Romney seems like an annoying jerk.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:56 PM
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Romney is doing better than previous debates because he isn't fluent in Teabagger. He's being very convincing and reasonable-sounding.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:57 PM
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87

Romney: Obama wants to give blank checks to big banks, Dodd/frank is a terrible bill (yes).


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:57 PM
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88

83: Are you kidding? Romney is steamrolling both Lehrer and Obama. That is manly and presidential.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:57 PM
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89

Oops. 88 to 84.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:58 PM
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90

Ugh! 85! 85!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:58 PM
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91

Obamacare makes insurance more expensive? Where's that coming from.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:58 PM
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92

88 is right.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:59 PM
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93

Obama seems Presidential; Romney seems like an annoying jerk.

I don't know, my memory of 2000 and 2004 is that "annoying jerk" to me means "good guy to have a beer with" to half of America.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:59 PM
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Josh Marshall is down to appealing to the rope-a-dope--this will unpack badly for Mitt over next few days. Because, I don't know, factcheckers?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 6:59 PM
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Romneycare totally diffrent than obamacare because I did it.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:00 PM
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Yeah, Romney's trusting in the etch-a-sketch. "It doesn't matter what I said before. What I'm telling you now is that I and the American free market are going to giver you a pony. The President doesn't want you to have a pony, because he believes in big government."


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:00 PM
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Seriously, that's not my read at all. Obama seems reasonable and measured, and capable of explaining stuff, Romney sounds rushed and like a dick. I'm sure that's how they were coached but unless Romney hits one out of the park or Obama fucks up in an obvious way this is a nonevent. I think you all are weirdo political junkies who want pain theater or something.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:00 PM
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Squiggle says obama is popular with the ladies.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:00 PM
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99

Obama's getting pissy now. This will turn into horrible spin points.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:01 PM
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100

Maybe it's just the difference between TV and radio. Romney has a bigger head than Obama.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:01 PM
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Now Lehrer is chiding Obama for going over time? Arg. SMASH.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:01 PM
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102

87% Democrat! And they still managed to pass healthcare in Mass. Amazing.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:02 PM
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103

Scott brown shout out! Obama why didnt you bring America together.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:02 PM
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104

101: For real.
Romney is killing. It's all lies -- but it is a continuous stream of indicative statements.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:03 PM
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91

Obamacare makes insurance more expensive? Where's that coming from

Adding requirements to what insurance plans have to cover makes them more expensive.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:03 PM
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Death panels are back! Mittens, I knew I could count on you.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:03 PM
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107

Wait did Romney just bring back death panels. I mean managed care panels.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:03 PM
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108

?


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:03 PM
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109

Obama not bipartisan enough. Obama please stop defending your policies as republican plans.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:05 PM
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88: Romney is steamrolling both Lehrer and Obama. That is manly and presidential.

Maybe Obama needs to run over, throw Mitt down and skull-fuck him right on the stage.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:05 PM
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111

Turning off the radio now to go home (and not turn on the TV). The main thing I've learned is not to trust any of you.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:06 PM
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Yeah, playing defense is losing, and that's what's happening. Bloodless, too.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:06 PM
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113

Maybe Obama needs to run over, throw Mitt down and skull-fuck him right on the stage.

Sounds like a plan. Why am I even reading this thread when I was doing such a good job of avoiding the debate? UGH.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:06 PM
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114

Davewiegel tweet: "This is like watching a tax law professor debate an investment advice infomercial host."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:06 PM
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115

113: right?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:07 PM
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Squiggle says: women love sexy Obama and his sexy healthcare talk


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:07 PM
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117

The hour is up. Is it over or did they run over?


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:07 PM
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118

It's good to know that Obama is doing well with the liberal Hollywood lawyer demographic.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:08 PM
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119

Romney: I love Americans! They will lower healthcare costs! Unlike what they've been doing! For fifty years!


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:08 PM
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120

Charles Pierce: "I watched Ali-Foreman. This is the point in the rope-a-dope strategy where you come off the ropes and punch."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:09 PM
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121

Romney: my plan covers pre-existing conditions. Fails to mention that it only does if you have continous coverage. Is: you didn't get sick when you were young.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:10 PM
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BHO is really doing badly. It's all explainy and defensive and non-staccato-informative, unlike Romney. Milkshake fairly well drunk. I hope the Josh Marshall thesis of "Romey's lies will be exposed later by the media!!!" is right, but, er, come on.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:10 PM
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123

117 90 minute debate.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:10 PM
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124

I actually think Obama's skewering of Mittens-then-versus-Mittens-now is quite smart.


Posted by: Lod Castock | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:11 PM
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125

FUCK YES: secret plans are NOT PLANS


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:11 PM
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126

Oudemia refers to herself as Milkshake when she's btocked?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:11 PM
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127

Oh, Jesus fucking Christ.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:11 PM
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Squiggle says: huge gender difference on obamacare


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:11 PM
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129

Oh, Oudsmia is drunk. That explains it. I like angry assholes when I'm drunk, too.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:12 PM
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Obama's getting pissed.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:12 PM
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131

The takeover thing is so bullshit.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:12 PM
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My elderly mother: "He's coming off well. I thought he was going to be laughable." (In re Romney, duh.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:13 PM
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133

This is killing me. I believe grappa is indicated.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:13 PM
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"My asshole is ANGRY and I don't care who knows it!"


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:13 PM
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135

Obama needs to strangle Romney and then smother Lehrer with the body.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:13 PM
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136

124 and 125 get it right. He needs to attack from beginning to end. Romney is incredibly vulnerable, so is Obama. Whoever is playing defense will lose.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:14 PM
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137

I don't *like* him, dopey. It's just obvious that Romney is "winning." And I would say I have slid back to 1/2 btock.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:14 PM
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138

BHO is really doing badly.

It doesn't make any difference who's winning. Everybody already knows who they're voting for and nobody's going to change their mind.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:14 PM
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139

133: You need to share.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:14 PM
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130: at Leher, it seems-Must be thinking "can't he contol that ass enough for it to be fair?"


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:14 PM
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141

125 is well said. I wish Obama said that.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:15 PM
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138 is right and I need to remember that before I start hyperventilating. (Also, all lessons will be learned by debate #2.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:15 PM
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143

Romney taking credit for MA's good schools?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:16 PM
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144

142 seconded.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:16 PM
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145

If the primary goal of government is to keep Americans safe that probably also means not letting them die from easily fixable medical issues.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:16 PM
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143: Yep!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:16 PM
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147

I'm not imagining these anti-abortion dogwhistles here, am I?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:16 PM
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148

I'm going to say "creator" fifty times as a dogwhistle to fundies.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:17 PM
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149

Kill, Obama, kill! Kill the fucker. KILL WHITEY!!

I have work I am supposed to be doing. In part why I am not watching the debate.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:17 PM
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150

Romney: I love great schools ("they are delicious"). I love the creativity and innovation of Americans ("it is delicious").


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:17 PM
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151

"Trickle-down government"? What does that even mean?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:17 PM
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I am sharing, if it's not violating the sanctity &c.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:17 PM
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I hope the Josh Marshall thesis of "Romey's lies will be exposed later by the media!!!" is right, but, er, come on.

Not bloody likely. The media is invested in keeping the race interesting. They would like nothing better than a "Romney comes back bruising debate performance" narrative. I think we'll be hearing about how Romney cleaned Obama's clock until at least the next debate.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:17 PM
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Romney reappropriates the word "trickle-down" and applies it to big government programs?!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:17 PM
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Pursue dream or pursue happiness ? An American dilemma.


Posted by: Econolicious | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:18 PM
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Romney savior of the poor, protector of dreams.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:19 PM
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Romney's right 1 in 6 in poverty is shit.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:19 PM
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138

It doesn't make any difference who's winning. Everybody already knows who they're voting for and nobody's going to change their mind.

I don't know who I am going to vote for. Of course I'm not watching either.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:19 PM
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150: I love great schools

They're the right height.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:20 PM
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153: 'twas ever thus.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:20 PM
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And if there is actually anybody out there who doesn't already know who they're voting for, they certainly aren't the sort of person who's going to sit through 5 minutes of debate over taxes and budgeting, much less 90. They'll just let TV tell them who won over the next couple of days.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:20 PM
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So now we know: the Romney strategy was not zingers, but knuckleballs.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:20 PM
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There really is a persistent noticeable gender gap when Obama speaks, but not when Romney talks.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:21 PM
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And then there's Shearer.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:21 PM
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152: Do you have any calvados?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:21 PM
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Frank Conniff: "Romney thinks gay kids should have the opportunity to get beat up in public as well as private schools."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:22 PM
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Huh. Could the liquor store still be open?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:22 PM
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Maybe Obama's strategy is to throw this debate in order to lower expectations for the next two debates.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:23 PM
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I don't think the president should be micromanaging community collage, I also don't think Obama should be defending the current shitty student loan system.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:23 PM
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167: another half hour.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:24 PM
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Lehrer "I'm not going to say... I've done a poor job"


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:24 PM
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"Your entitled to your own house and airplane, but not your own facts."..... finally, one of the alleged zingers he's be practicing.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:24 PM
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This Romney taking credit for MA schools thing is fucking amazing. He did it really aggressively and Lehrer cut off the president trying to counter. And the president thanked him and told him what a good job he was doing.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:24 PM
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Romney: naturally I won't cut anything anyone doesn't love, like pie! But PBS, you are toast!


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:24 PM
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Ed Kilgore makes a good point: "BHO misses opportunity to mention that Paul Ryan author of Social Security privatization proposal."


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:24 PM
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165: I don't. I have a 1968 Armagnac, if that's an appealing substitute. Feel free to drop by.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:25 PM
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No federal oversight of collage!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:25 PM
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Oh, but the debate is ending shortly. That might kill my desire for liquor.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:25 PM
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Grade schools, brilliant! Oh grade yourself leher


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:25 PM
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177: The mosaic religions do it better.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:26 PM
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Tweets from Jammies:

"Romney's doing an excellent job moderating while Jim Lehrer takes a nap."


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:26 PM
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Romney loves democrats.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:26 PM
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176: That's a good thing! I am in NJ, so I can't just hop a cab across the park. FROWN.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:26 PM
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180 is awesome.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:26 PM
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Obama hasn't done a good job of tying Romney to the rest of the Republican party. He should've done that. People hate Republicans.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:26 PM
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Yep.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:27 PM
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God, Romney's fucking smirk. It's different from GW Bush's, but fills me with the same intense rage.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:28 PM
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Romney is in this race to help people that are really hurting, Romney will be our bipartisan SuperJesus.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:28 PM
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At the very least, he should've tied Romney to himself.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:28 PM
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Yep.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:28 PM
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I get annoyed when politicians spout off about random regular people they've met.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:29 PM
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To everything.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:29 PM
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2030. Looks out from under rock. Now is it safe?


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:30 PM
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Obama meets a lot of fuckups around the country.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:30 PM
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UGH. I want to drink Armagnac and smack Romney in the face.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:30 PM
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essear go score some Hennessy. oudemia you too.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:31 PM
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Off to the liquor store!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:32 PM
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Centre College? Huh. Really?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:32 PM
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Fuck you, Jim Lehrer.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:32 PM
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Well, they say a good 47% of the people in the country are fuckups.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:32 PM
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191: I'm choosing to believe that each such anecdote is code for having had a sexual relationship with said person.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:33 PM
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2030. Looks out from under rock. Now is it safe?

Nope. During the Great Space War, Jenna Bush rescinded all elections, effectively making herself a lifetime autocrat.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:33 PM
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Yankees are up 14-2 in the 9th.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:33 PM
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198: And woman moderating, yo!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:34 PM
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Obama promises to do just as well in his second term to advance the interests of the middle class as he did in his first. (we are doomed).

Romney savior of the middle class. Romney will get rid of obamacare and replace it with what he did in mass. Completely different.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:34 PM
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203: ugh. And unlike the debate, that means something on some level. Fucking Sox.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:34 PM
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I'd have paid money to watch the Great Space War. Hmm, I probably did pay.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:35 PM
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201 wins and will make all future SotUAs much more interesting.


Posted by: Jimmy Pongo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:35 PM
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Yeah, so, everyone is saying about how Romney crushed it and crushed the moderator and that showed how commanding and manly Romney is and no one attacked Romney and he won.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:35 PM
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Obama said, "the reason is because" in his closing statement.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:36 PM
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MSNBC is imploding.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:36 PM
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So I guess Obama did not end with something like, " Which Romney is going to show-up to govern? This one, the one who has been campaigning the last few months, or the one convincing Republicans to vote for him in the primary. Personally I think it will be the one talking to those donors in Boca Raton."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:37 PM
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203, 206: sigh. But how bout them A's, huh? Woo!


Posted by: X.Trapnel | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:37 PM
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And Chris Hayes is right that Romney just jettisoned the right-wing of the party *utterly* tonight. Obama would mention a shitty Republican policy and Romney would completely disavow it.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:38 PM
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And tomorrow I have to go back and teach young racist shitheads. Fuck everything.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:38 PM
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Aiieee!! I saw a brief glimpse of David Brooks's face on my TV screen ... tell Laura I love her...


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:39 PM
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I feel confident in saying that the Red Sox will have new leadership. After reading here and elsewhere I feel less confident in saying that the US won't.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:39 PM
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And Chris Hayes is right that Romney just jettisoned the right-wing of the party *utterly* tonight. Obama would mention a shitty Republican policy and Romney would completely disavow it.

Something tells me they'll be uncharacteristically quiescent about that the next few days.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:39 PM
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I listened to the first and last 20 minutes of the debate, a couple thoughts:

1) Romney sounded better than I expected, he spoke well, generally speaking.

2) Neither of them have much instinct for the attack, at all.

3) In the opening of the debate I thought Obama was talking about twice as much Romney, I didn't hear the parts later on when Romney was talking over Obama.

4) I have to think that it is not a good strategy to try to role out major changes in message (re: Romney's tax plan) in the debates. Yes, Romney took some popular positions, but I have to think it's going to create days or weeks of having to explain the math behind his tax plan, and I don't think that's good for the Romney campaign.

5) Both of them wanted to present themselves as pragmatists. They were both weak on drawing clear distinctions in philosophy.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:40 PM
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Good news: Obama is winning!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:42 PM
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Chris Matthews is practically crying. (For real.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:42 PM
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Everyone just go into hibernation or suspended animation for the next 10 days or so, because it's going to be all "Romney's comeback!" and "Race tightening!" and "Too close to call!". But nothing will have changed in the election fundamentals (by which I mean: the modal voter in Ohio still thinks Romney is a rich prick).


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:42 PM
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222: I know. That's why I didn't watch or get involved in any way. And got a new draft of this fucking "strategy" paper done instead.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:44 PM
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Ari Shapiro from NPR is on PBS. He's a hipster?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:46 PM
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Apparently.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:47 PM
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I hate them all. I want Obama to win, but I hate him only slightly less than Romney. And Jim Lehrer is a horrible useless unpleasant homunculus of a Texan. (This comment sponsored by Bushmills and Newt's social studies teacher, who made me watch it.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:48 PM
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All you people should drink less during debates.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:50 PM
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Easy for you, I'm sure.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:51 PM
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I'm curious to see if the media actual does go with the comeback narrative. I have my doubts; their personal dislike for him overcame their collective crush on Ryan.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:52 PM
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Wait, Sifu is advocating less drinking? That must have been some debate.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:52 PM
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DOWNTOWN LIQUORS HAS NO COGNAC!

What is the deal?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:52 PM
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Er, quoted bits omitted???

but I hate him only slightly less than Romney

LB has that privilege! I'm sure it's lovely.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:53 PM
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I want Obama to win, but I hate him only slightly less than Romney.

Word.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:53 PM
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Sullivan has gone into shrieking hysterics that Obama may have just lost the election, which gives me renewed confidence that the President will win at least 300 EV.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:53 PM
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I was all set to follow Sifu's advice, or maybe Remy Martin, or something. And they seemed puzzled when I asked for cognac. There was just 1 $90 bottle of something fancy that seemed a bit too much for me.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:54 PM
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Obamacare's Cognac Panels have eliminated all the cognac except for the very rich.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:55 PM
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Ehhh, 234 came out more homophobic than I intended.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:55 PM
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But hey I got some rye.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:55 PM
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I understand that Mitt Romney says he is entitled to his own airplane. He probably has cognac there.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:55 PM
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On wait yeah. Everybody except essear should drink less. essear should drink more, somehow or other.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:56 PM
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234 helps, but I needed more, so I turned up "Bill Kristol: 'Best performance by a Republican Presidential Candidate in TWO Decades.'


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:56 PM
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"


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:56 PM
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If I had a garage with an elevator, I could probably fit a bank in there too.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:57 PM
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He probably has cognac there.

Come over here and let me fill you in on a little secret about Mitt Romney...


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:57 PM
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For his guests, perhaps?


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:57 PM
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I wonder how this would work: a whisper campaign saying Mitt wants to reimpose Prohibition to enforce his religion's standards.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 7:59 PM
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245: having it in the house at all would be pretty tacky, from my understanding.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:00 PM
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I would support a brohibition. The nation has suffered enough.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:02 PM
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168 is sounding more plausible now that the Obama camp is declining to attempt to spin this one as a win.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:02 PM
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"CBS KN instant reaction poll: 46-22 say think he won, 56% have better opinion of Romney, Romney cares up from 30 to 63"


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:02 PM
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Mmm, rye.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:03 PM
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I dunno, there's a lot of ruin in a nation, as the GOP keeps teaching us.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:03 PM
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Romney: Manly man bulldozing doddering idiot moderator and gay black President for WIN!!! or lying bully sycophantically playing the moderate to the national political media and dissing all the goober yahoos who got him the nomination.

Finding out what the political media decide is all the fun! And speaking of which, after resisting heroically for several hours, the NYT now has a piece up on the 2007 Obama video which pretty much shows them at their ACORN-trashing worse. Conservative media is abuzz!! That means it's important!!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:03 PM
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I ought to go into media blackout until after the election. I won't.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:06 PM
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I ought to drink whiskey every night until after the election.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:06 PM
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All this talk of buying alcohol is making me think I should go get some. Pros: the liquor store is a block away and definitely still open. Cons: it's raining and it's Wednesday night, plus I didn't actually watch the debate.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:07 PM
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We can just boil that down to blackout.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:07 PM
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256: You should totally go get some!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:07 PM
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For at least one meaning of "get some" and possibly two.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:07 PM
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259: Heh.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:08 PM
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258: Definitely two.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:08 PM
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Be funny if Teo can find cognac.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:08 PM
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I think I'll need to wait for Sifu's opinion before making the final call, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:08 PM
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http://f.cl.ly/items/063W101J1m3E3O122s3o/White%20Folks.mp3


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:09 PM
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Yeah, what is with the cognac lack? Somerville hipsters don't drink it, I guess. The liquor store I used to go to in suburban New Jersey had plenty of it.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:10 PM
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Testing 262 is tempting.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:10 PM
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262: Be funny if Teo can find cognac.

Is that the alcoholic form of a biscuit conditional?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:11 PM
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267: No, it's a command. You're all on notice.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:12 PM
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So, Obama was off his game, eh?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:13 PM
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198: That's where I went to Statewide Nerd Camp!


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:13 PM
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Also, Jim Lehrer, what the fuck.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:14 PM
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This is what I'm drinking.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:14 PM
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270: Me too! I think maybe this came up before.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:14 PM
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The is no Downtown Liquor in Anchorage. But there is a Downtown Wine & Spirits.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:16 PM
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Well anyway, fuck this shit. Off to swim whatever the fuck I'm pretending to be doing until another debate or cock joke thread.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:16 PM
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Also, 222 gets it right. It's a what the fuck moment if ever I saw one.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:16 PM
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I don't live downtown anyway.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:16 PM
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I'm not clear on in what sense I live downtown, either.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:17 PM
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275: At least wait until I get back from the liquor store!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:17 PM
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+s

And the one in the ville has the same name?


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:17 PM
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And I think it's Downtown Wine and Spirits here.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:17 PM
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Okay, I'm heading over. Will report back on what I find.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:18 PM
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I bet he finds booooze.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:21 PM
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234: yeah saw that. Always amusing how close to his skin that guy lives. Also how superficial he is, for a smart man. And innumerate.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:21 PM
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Or mooooooose.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:21 PM
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221: Chris Matthews is practically crying. (For real.)

Really? That's sort of interesting. David Brooks shocked me by saying in the first 30 seconds after the debate just how it seemed (to me): Obama was rusty at debating. Romney's been doing this for months and months now. Romney continued to deny everything; Obama was rusty.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:22 PM
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Man, that was dispiriting. I'm going to try to remain inanely optimistic, though. Nobody watches debates! The media still hates Romney! Surrogates will effectively dismantle Romney's assertions! But, oy.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:22 PM
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This is what we're drinking. Not helping.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:24 PM
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äääääääälg!


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:24 PM
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Man, that was dispiriting.

You need stronger spirits next time.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:25 PM
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288: Oooh. I've had their chamomile, but not that.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:26 PM
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I finally broke down and bought a plane ticket, so I'm definitely going to be in Florence on election night. I wonder what I should plan on drinking?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:27 PM
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Hemlock?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:28 PM
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I can't remember how the 2008 debates went, except to recall that McCain was kind of doddering. Obama is definitely suffering from Angry Black Man Avoidance, and Romney seems to know that.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:29 PM
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293: Now there's a thought. Do the liquor stores carry that?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:29 PM
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I've been hitting the Buffalo Trace. Time to sexually harass the wife while she tries to do some work. For America.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:30 PM
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If, the first time Romney lies about his plans, disavows previous comments, or pretends to care about people, Obama, in his folksy style, mentions how Romney talks in private about Americans, that debate goes rather differently with Romney's credibility shot. I wonder why he didn't? What could his team be thinking?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:35 PM
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Come to think of it, Obama could probably deliver some sort of chiding line better than almost any other politician.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:37 PM
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292: This. Or their Pian del Ciampolo if you're not feeling quite so spendy.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:39 PM
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I'll be mostly feeling jet-lagged. Which probably counts against drinking at all. But if the news is bad enough, I'm not sure spendiness or jetlag will dissuade me.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:44 PM
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I guess the result won't be known until the next morning. Early-morning drinking, woo!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:45 PM
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A potentially comforting theory (if you're into the 11th dimensional chess thing) could be that the Obama team wants the press to do the work of challenging Romney's statements for them, and if the press doesn't they know they have two more debates to do it themselves. Alternatively, that they know the press will insist on a "Romney won a debate" narrative, so they might as well have it be the first one and therefore reversible. I'm sticking with grappa.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:46 PM
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The debate was definitely more fun with company and booze. Not enough leeway to make snap judgments - they both sounded boring.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:46 PM
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I did think Obama was more halting than in the past - not nearly as bad as Bush 2004 vs. 2000, but reminiscent.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:47 PM
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"If Mitt had been debating a Democrat, he would have been toast. As it is, he won decisively." stolen from FDL, who have funnier snark

Can the Obama Candidacy be Saved? Quick call Carville! No, call Dick Morris!!

(Maybe Obama is the one who needs an October surprise. Wag Wag)

Fuck no, I didn't watch that thing.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:49 PM
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Obama is definitely suffering from Angry Black Man Avoidance

Yeah.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:49 PM
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Obama seemed like he was on some kind of medication. Terrible.

That said, there may have been a bit of strategy in his failure to respond to the 716 billion line Romney trotted out ten times. At least I hope so.


Posted by: Disingenuous Bastard | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:50 PM
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teo must live farther from the liquor store than I do.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:53 PM
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He lives in Alaska. He's probably still strapping on his snowshoes.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:54 PM
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Or he got some.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:55 PM
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Moose rasslin'.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:55 PM
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I've had to quit watching any kind of political anything since I quit drinking: it's far too painful without chemical assistance. If I were forced to watch a debate or something I'd have to buy some heroin.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:56 PM
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I was thinking Obama was perhaps a little unprepared for Romney's aggresiveness and dissembling. Perhaps his day job was keeping him busy. Then I found out John Kerry was his debate prep Romney stand in.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:56 PM
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Sometimes you get the beer. Sometimes the bear gets you.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:56 PM
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What the fucking fuck. Tentative, lame, weak. Can't Obama even simulate some liberal populist fire? What was going on there?


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 8:58 PM
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Hopefully 311 is not to 310.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:00 PM
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Moose need loving too, essear.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:01 PM
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I'm back. I didn't see any cognac, but I didn't realize until I got back and looked it up that I probably should have looked in the brandy aisle. I also couldn't remember which cheap whiskeys people here have said are better than others, so I ended up getting a fifth of Jim Beam because it seemed like a reasonable choice.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:01 PM
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Can't Obama even simulate some liberal populist fire?

You haven't been paying much attention since 2008, have you?


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:02 PM
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so I ended up getting a fifth of Jim Beam because it seemed like a reasonable choice

This is exactly the kind of weak-ass centrism that got Obama in trouble tonight.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:03 PM
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Whether that was in fact a reasonable choice remains to be seen, of course.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:04 PM
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They had a whole aisle for brandy? Your local liquor store must be a lot better than mine.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:04 PM
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This thread reminds me of the one during Palin's speech at the 2008 RNC. Everybody should take a deep breath.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:04 PM
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a deep breath of whiskey


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:05 PM
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They had a whole aisle for brandy?
Yeah, but it's hard to get to, what with all the St. Bernards.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:06 PM
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No, only part of an aisle, but that wasn't one of the aisles I checked.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:07 PM
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Ed Kilgore:

"CBS instapoll has Romney winning by 46-22. The margin will go up after media coverage. I haven't looked at MSNBC tonight, but apparently they (and especially Chris Mathews) are hating on Obama more than the Fox folks."


Friday Headline (after good polls)

"Watchers say Romney wins debate 60-10!"

I mean, what am I reading here?

Hell, I say Romney blew Obama away, and I didn't watch or hear any of it.

What did GWB teach us. It doesn't matter if you lie, or get your facts wrong, or are as dumb as a duck, or crazy as a bedbug. What matters is how bad you want the fucking job.

Romney wants to be President a whole fuckload more than Obama.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:08 PM
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They did have some cognac-based liqueurs. They also had absinthe, and while I was there two hipsterish guys stood in front of the absinthe for like ten minutes checking reviews of the different brands on their phones.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:08 PM
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319: I know he doesn't feel it but I thought he could simulate it when necessary. Especially when he should know damn well that 60+% of the public wants higher taxes on the rich and no changes to Medicare/SS. Did you catch when Romney hung Obama's refusal to push for repealing the Bush tax cuts in 2010 around his neck -- you said we couldn't raise anyone's taxes in a recession, I'm just agreeing with you? Ugh.

Romney laid claim to being Reagan's true heir tonight -- the guy qualified to put a smiley face on oppressive bullshit.

Obama can pull this out of course, people know the real choice even if he won't say it...but still...


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:10 PM
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Whether that was in fact a reasonable choice remains to be seen, of course.

Well, what's the verdict?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:22 PM
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Against my will, we watched NBC talking heads after. Andrea Mitchell called out Romney's lies about his tax plan, and, more or less, on the Medicare cuts. And had a quibble with Obama's deficit reduction: it's counting the wars, which are ending anyway, counts some cuts he already got agreement on in the debt showdown, and the like.

Then everyone just wanted to talk about the spectacle, which was Romneys.

The WH is going to have to work overtime to get the narrative back to arithmetic, but it can be done. Maybe Bill Clinton is going to have to save his bacon, which is perfect payback for the spring of 2008.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:26 PM
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Well, what's the verdict?

It's fine, so far.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:32 PM
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Weak-ass centrism triumphs again!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:32 PM
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Maybe Bill Clinton is going to have to save his bacon

Maybe. But my money's on the polls barely moving at all.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:33 PM
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Yeah, the saving grace of this debate was that it was extremely boring. Romney had to come out with a lot of mealymouthed gobbledygook because he was defending the indefensible. Obama came out with a lot of mealymouthed gobbledygook because apparently that's just how he rolls. Not like any of it was compelling.

But Romney did blur the differences and execute the long-awaited Centrist Pivot, and Obama let him get away with it.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:52 PM
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I hope we see, within 48 hours, an Obama ad with Romney claiming his tax cuts aren't 5 trillion, and then intoning that they are, showing how the math works. I mean, don't even the analyses Romney cites agree on the magnitude of the cut (and disagree on how much deduction elimination is necessary to get to revenue neutrality)?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:53 PM
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And he doesn't get away with it if there are a bunch of other adds comparing what he said in primary debates to what he said tonight. I'm not and have never been on Team 11th Dimensional Chess, but maybe giving Romney enough rope to hang himself in swing state ads was a reasoned choice.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:56 PM
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323 gets it right. This is all much ado about not much. (Which is why I watched The World is Not Enough rather than the debate with the older boy. Great performance by Denise Richards, by the way.) I mean, even if it happens two more times and the press reverts to the mean -- rather than continuing to call out Romney's and Ryan's lies -- it probably still won't matter. Seriously, how many people are actually undecided at this point? And of those people, how many will make up their mind because of the debates? The answer, believe it or not, is 137. That's science is what that is.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 9:57 PM
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The answer, believe it or not, is 137.

Which is one over the fine-structure constant, because the outcome of this election is encoded in the structure of the universe itself.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 10:14 PM
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I should really go to sleep.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 10:14 PM
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And people say history is not a science.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 10:16 PM
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Actually I guess I don't know that people say that, but I assume they think it, at least.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 10:17 PM
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Not for long.


Posted by: Opinionated Mule | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 10:39 PM
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It's a win for Mitt but a Pyrrhic victory. He had to dissemble so aggressively as to leave himself wide open for a months' worth of being hammered by the same "flip-flopper" narrative that largely undid Kerry. Would the real Mitt please stand up? Does he support his own tax plan or doesn't he? Is he deeply concerned about Americans hurting families or deeply concerned about destroyed "the entitlement society"? & c.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 10:45 PM
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Heh heh heh. It's all going according to plan. Soon NO ONE will have any faith in electoral politics. Heh heh heh.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10- 3-12 11:39 PM
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Which is why I watched The World is Not Enough rather than the debate with the older boy. Great performance by Denise Richards, by the way.

Get out of there, kid. It's too late for your old man, but if you flee now you can make it out with your brain intact. He's going to make you watch Die Another Day next, you know that. And Moonraker.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 1:28 AM
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323: This thread reminds me of the one during Palin's speech at the 2008 RNC. Everybody should take a deep breath.

That did come to mind--in particular Sybil Vane's, [t]his woman is winning the election right now. And I was on Team Deep Breath for that one. However, a scripted speech by the VP candidate at the convention is not quite comparable to a Presidential debate in October. That said, I'm just a bit deflated rather than panicked; the real potential issue I see is that Obama was benefiting greatly from renewed base enthusiasm and theoretically greater turnout. This performance certainly did not build on that.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 2:47 AM
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Eh, I think the debates probably have less salience now than they did in the 1980s, when a crushing debate win for a substantially more fluid electorate bumped you a max of around three points. And there are costs to Mitt to in pivoting towards the center, if that's what he did (after I turned off the radio, I didn't watch). And there are large parts of the Obama base that are not particularly worried by an "over-cautious" strategy.

I suspect this particular forum is way more primed than most (even most liberal democrats) to both underestimate Republicans as morons who can't string a sentence together and to overvalue a "go for the jugular" debate style. I agree that it looks like the dominant media narrative will be "Romney did well" but I doubt it will be "Obama did terribly/committed some huge gaffe" which is what Romney needed at this point. And of course is why (aside from his natural style) Obama was so cautious.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 3:01 AM
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344: I'm with you on that; and in a reasonable political process that is what the next few weeks would be all about, but ...

But geez, don't you think Obama maybe could have gotten the ball rolling on that narrative a bit more visibly, maybe during his summation.

We'll see. If nothing else this should help identify the "must defeat Obama at all costs" pragmatic liars (like Fox) as opposed to the more doctrinaire conservatives.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 3:02 AM
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Shorter Me: Turnout, that is my concern, Dude.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 3:06 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/us/politics/obama-and-romneys-friendly-fire-the-tv-watch.html?hp

This kind of pox on both their houses, gosh the debate was technical and old fashioned, analysis seems more likely to be most people's takeaway than OBAMA FAILS.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 3:06 AM
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347: and from the same thread, cutting-edge political analyst bob mcmanus, "Sybil is right. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Obama shoulda picked Clinton."


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 3:21 AM
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273: We have discussed it, because me too too.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 4:01 AM
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What do essear, Smearcase and Thorn have in common?

None of them went to nerd camp in my kitchen.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 5:12 AM
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The influence of the debates is often oversold. Kerry did very well in the debates, and Mondale whupped Reagan in their first outing. Still, one wishes for the good guys* to win these things, and even after all these years, I'm still dismayed at the efficacy of looking straight into the camera and lying.

*read: lesser evil guys.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 5:18 AM
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352: Although apo says the wrongest thing in the thread! (Well, no. The thread goes completely pear-shaped and loony.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 5:32 AM
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356.last: I had forgotten that thread had that particular Tripp trip.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 6:02 AM
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And after a few hours sleep, I'm better. I like this plan! I just want to be able to go to bed over the next 4 weeks confident that I'm going to get fucked more gently and slowly by the less obscenely wealthy guy who doesn't lie quite as much.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 6:07 AM
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356: I assume that would be [re:Palin] I expect she'll do well in the 2012 primaries, though.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 6:10 AM
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359: That's the one!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 6:18 AM
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Get out of there, kid. It's too late for your old man, but if you flee now you can make it out with your brain intact. He's going to make you watch Die Another Day next

Word. Thank god Daniel Craig made 007 watchable again.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 6:23 AM
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The sense of my group was that many of them would have turned it off if watching on their own.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 6:25 AM
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As usual, the last sane honest man in the blogosphere, Matt Stoller nails it.

The reason Obama did poorly is simple. He is bad at governing America. He hasn't solved the foreclosure crisis, the jobs crisis, the climate crisis, the energy crisis, the financial crisis, the debt crisis, the health care crisis, or really, anything. He can't point to very much that Americans broadly like, except killing Bin Laden and the auto bailout. His second term agenda is to cut Social Security, Medicare, frack, cut corporate taxes, bust more teachers unions and pass more neoliberal trade agreements. He is proud of this record. So are his people. But he knows he can't run on it because it's unpopular, so instead, he presented himself as a nice likeable guy.

He frequently complimented Romney, agreed with him on most core policy arguments, and just generally avoided pointing out the many times Romney was lying. He didn't bring up social issues like abortion, or really, any weak spots for Romney. He tried to present himself as a fighter for the middle class, but he doesn't actually respect people he perceives have less strength than he does.
...
Obama is at his best when he is talking about himself and his family, because that's what he likes and believes in. That's why his 2008 campaign worked, because it was all framed around Obama The Savior. It was mass narcissism (and even then, he only narrowly beat John McCain). If you're wondering why Obama is a bad speaker now, where the old Obama went, just recognize that he's only a great speaker when it's all about him, because that's where his interest is.

And the last paragraph, and the bolded, is why Obama is still gonna win, because it is all Obama's base gives a fuck about, looking pretty. Obama looking good, and the fact of Obama making Obama's base look good to themselves.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 6:28 AM
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The odds are still with Obama, and for the reasons Castock lays out in 344 this will be less of a long-term win than it was a short-term win. But the other factor here is the implications for second term performance. The guy standing up there and saying that he and Romney basically agree on Social Security, who just managed to muster up a tepid endorsement of the principle of two and a half dollars of spending cuts to every dollar of tax increases, is not exactly the ideal defender of our retirement benefits against the ravenous tax-cutters of the right. I'm confident that if reelected Obama will repeal the Bush tax cuts for $250K+ but that's only the beginning of what needs to happen. I agree with Thomas Frank's assessment of this campaign as 'the maintenance crew vs. the wrecking crew'. That has to drive a vote for Obama -- he's on the side of maintaining what's left of New Deal and safety net decencies -- but he'll still need some fire in his belly to do it right.

I suspect this particular forum is way more primed than most (even most liberal democrats)... to overvalue a "go for the jugular" debate style.

Every mainstream analyst and everyone I've talked to personally faulted Obama for not being aggressive.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 6:56 AM
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I was a little worried about any comments I might have made on that liberal panic thread, but I have to say I'm rather proud of my contribution.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:03 AM
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Bloomberg, Sept 2

"Top 1% Got 93% of Income Growth as Rich-Poor Gap Widened" Good article, numbers and heart-rending anecdotes. I said I would judge Obama by Gini trend. Massive fucking fail at the barest Democratic minimum.

Black unemployment way up, black incarceration up, black families have lost 50% of their wealth in the last 6 years...but Obama is just fuckling terrific for black people because...

(Where did I read that this morning. Stoller? Because nobody has been tracking foreclosures, something like 60 fucking percent of black residents in Milwaukee are not at the addresses they were four years ago. There is still a chance that the polls are wrong, or turnout is going to be a cataclysmic shock.)


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:04 AM
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I definitely did not panic in that thread. The 08 election was much more predictable than this one.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:04 AM
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Most optimistic take possible!

The debate could have repercussions downticket. Republican funders who were toying with the idea of giving up on Romney and pouring their millions into Senate and House races are probably not going to to do that quite yet. The consequence is that Democratic Senate and House candidates may get some more breathing space for a while and if the funders do eventually abandon Romney, it may be too late to make a difference in the other races.

I like it!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:10 AM
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364:I'm confident that if reelected Obama will repeal the Bush tax cuts for $250K+ but that's only the beginning of what needs to happen.

This is not his choice, this is not on the table.

All the Bush cuts, and a lot more will expire...and/or Obama will make a deal with the Republican House and the Chamber of Idiots...or no deal at all. But what you said is not a possibility. It isn't.

Now if Republicans stay obstructionists for four years...

it will be a minimum $3000-5000 tax increase over the next four years per average family
+
spending cuts and layoffs as we go over the cliff
+
the motherfucking PPACA mandate kicking in in 2014 for another few thousand out of working class and twenty something incomes

...and Republicans can run on this nightmare in 2014 and 2016. Because although the House won't pass anything helpful, they also won't pass anything bad. You can blame them, I don't know if America will.

Of course a deal is gonna be made.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:16 AM
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Boehner:"Hey we passed a massive tax cut bill for working class America."

Obama:"Sorry, it had tax cuts for rich people, so I had to veto it."

Reid:"Override time. By acclamation?"


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:19 AM
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and even then, he only narrowly beat John McCain

WTF? Obama beat McCain by 10 million votes (53-46) and with 2/3 of the Electoral College.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:27 AM
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The NYTimes concludes that Romney was "deferential" to Lehrer and Obama grabbed time he didn't have. Amazing.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:40 AM
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I wasn't keeping close track, but it looked to me as if they were both walking all over Lehrer -- Romney wasn't better than Obama, but I didn't notice that he was worse.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:42 AM
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To me it looked like Romney was creaming Lehrer, and Obama would try, get gently rebuffed, and instead of plowing ahead like Romney did, would relent.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:46 AM
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It seemed to me that Obama was lengthening his answers beyond the allotted time, but Romney was always trying to have the last word and talking even when it wasn't his turn to talk and Lehrer was about to proceed to a new question.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:47 AM
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Lehrer is 78? I wonder if he uses gray dye.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:47 AM
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If I were setting these up, I'd have the microphones on an automatic timer that the moderator couldn't override. You can keep talking after your two minutes is up, but whatever you say had better be addressed to the fluent lipreader community.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:49 AM
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Maybe I should use gray dye so I look distinguished?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:50 AM
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I don't mean to alarm you hippies but the not-very-political woman you reprobates call Lunchy took pretty much the same Romney strong/Obama weak impression from the debate that the received wisdom would have it.

OT: Awesome. Commando's on AMC! Let off some steam, Bennett.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 7:58 AM
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379: Sure, but is Lunchy's vote up for grabs? Because I just don't believe there's much of anybody who's going to change their mind at this point.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:02 AM
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379.2: Remember when I said I'd kill you last? I LIED.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:03 AM
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I'm sticking with 219.4: the debate was a win for Romney but spending the next week fielding questions about the specifics of his tax plan isn't a win.

I could be wrong but listening at the time it sounded like a "short term gain, long term cost" strategy to firmly stake out positions opposed to the positions taken by the party. Nice work if you can get it, I suppose, and good for him if nobody calls him on it, but I predict more awkward interview questions about the math.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:11 AM
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359, 360: In my defense, it wasn't as obvious at that point that she didn't actually have any desire to be president. However, had Palin entered the primaries, she'd have instantly become the not-Romney candidate, rather than the Gingrich-Bachmann-Santorum-Cain-Perry clown show we got instead.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:12 AM
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638: That same thought occurred to me. I would offer another strained attempt at a silver lining: If Obama had to lose the debate, it's good that he lost as unambiguously as he did. If it were a close call, there would be nothing to stimulate the let's-be-contrarian-and-keep-it-interesting reflex in villagers like Chuck Todd:

"If Romney won the instant reactions from last night's debate, it is more than possible that the Obama camp can win the next 24 hours. Why? Because Romney said several things that could make life difficult for him today or in the next debate....Winning a debate is always a two-part deal -- the night itself, and then the aftermath. This is now an opportunity for Team Obama and a challenge for Team Romney"


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:26 AM
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"638" s/b "368"


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:27 AM
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384: My other silver lining is that now the media will be poised to report on Obama's comeback in the next two debates. Sort of a "everyone remembers the last moment with extra salience" effect.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:29 AM
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Mostly I'm just intensely annoyed with the whole mess last night, though.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:29 AM
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I hold no truck with anything about lowering expectations for future debates. The expectations game is a cable circle-jerk, with vastly less import than what the viewing public actually sees. If Obama is as competent a campaigner as he's shown himself to be in the past, he tried his best.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:39 AM
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Ostober 3 2012, Real News

JAY: Well, there's certainly no space at a national level. I think that's without question. What can happen at some local levels might be different.

HEDGES: Sure. I mean, all resistance at this point is probably local. But, you know, I feel that Wolin* nailed it. He's without question our greatest living political philosopher. And I think that we can't begin to effectively resist until we understand the configurations of power. And, you know, given the tentacles of the corporate state and the way that it has crushed the liberal mechanisms that once made piecemeal or incremental reform possible, we have to find another route to resistance.

Sheldon Wolin, Inverted Totalitarianism, Managed Democracy


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 9:12 AM
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390

Update: I checked the liquor store again and they do have cognac.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 4-12 8:11 PM
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