Re: I am opposed to this proposal

1

San Franciscans have weird problems.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:04 AM
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First, they came for the naked men, but I was not naked.

I see nothing wrong with it, other than worrying a bit about going shoeless, but, well, they aren't my feet. And will note that nobody seemed concerned with the naked chicks at the Folsom St. Fair.


Posted by: Grumbles | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 3:16 AM
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The article specifies that nudity would still be allowed at street fairs, so Folsom Street Fair and Bay to Breakers can still be full of genitals- and buttocks-exposing people.

It also says that nudity is currently banned in SF in restaurants, parks, and on port property. Shame about the parks; it seems a lot more normal to me that a person might want to strip down and lie around in the grass than that you'd want to hang out naked on a street corner. Are the beaches in SF all officially parts of parks?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 4:01 AM
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Even the ones with rings and whatnot aren't being actively lewd about it.

Onion rings?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 4:05 AM
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Ring around the collar!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 4:31 AM
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||

One of Joey's spelling words for today is "mold." I really wanted the next word to be "caulked it."

|>


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 5:03 AM
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3: nudity is allowed on the beaches, and this wouldn't apply there. I forget why.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 5:10 AM
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I think that the current ban on nudity in restaurants is probably wise.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 5:18 AM
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"Being able to expose your genitals at Castro and Market is not the goal of the LGBT civil rights movement."

If it wasn't, maybe it should have been?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 5:53 AM
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One of Joey's spelling words for today is "mold."

M - O - L - E, that's mole!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 5:53 AM
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11

"Skid mark law."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:12 AM
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I don't know about the legal disposition, but around San Francisco, if you go to a beach, you're likely to see someone in the buff.

I personally don't get it - The water is too cold for me, and most days it is a bit chilly in these parts.


Posted by: Grumbles | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:15 AM
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Those parts are really not used to be exposed to the cold.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:15 AM
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Most naked people would look a lot better if they put on a nice blue blazer.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:40 AM
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Really, 11 illustrates my first thought about the issue.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:41 AM
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I biked passed some naked guys

Where's a SALB when you need one?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:44 AM
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OT: "Yes to another candidate" still means "No" to me, pal, but thanks for passing on the compliments, I guess. Damn it.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:44 AM
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If the measure passes, will said naked dudes pull a reverse Spanish firefighters move and cling fully-clothed to the railing around city hall?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:48 AM
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In Golden Gate Park on Sunday, a guy with a kid about 8 asked if he could use my phone to call 311 to complain about the naked cyclists. I said no. He didn't look seriously offended (by the nakedness -- or, to his credit, by my refusal).


Posted by: Vance Maverick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:52 AM
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I think that the current ban on nudity in restaurants is probably wise.

Especially in the kitchen.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:55 AM
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Plus, splattering grease fires.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 6:56 AM
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I feel strongly that they should put a napkin down before they sit.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 7:28 AM
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I guess now we know where the next Unfogged meetup shouldnt take place.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 7:33 AM
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"They're annoying, like mosquitoes," he said.

I don't understand this comparison.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 7:35 AM
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24: anti-proboscids


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 7:42 AM
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They're both disease-vectors.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 7:42 AM
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If you leave pools of water uncovered, you'll attract both.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 7:44 AM
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The problem isn't that they're naked, it's that in the way lot San Franciscans they want a fucking medal for being naked.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 7:54 AM
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OT: Is it now common for police to use "medical condition" the way the airlines use "weather"? That is, the airline people have altered the meaning of "weather" so that it means "weather through which you should not fly an airplane" as in "We can't fly because there is weather in Chicago." This story is an example of the sort of thing I've been seeing in the paper where "medical condition" clearly means "dropped dead of a medical condition".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 8:09 AM
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They were naked, but not in a way we can understand.

I have been in caulking hell recently with the bathtub drain. Finally packed it in and went with plumber's putty, which is awesome, except it will make it a bit harder to clean.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 8:14 AM
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I use "air conditioning" to mean any condition of the air. AC units are so biased.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 8:16 AM
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31: Standard or metric AC units?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 8:24 AM
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Imperial AC units. It's a guy in native dress waving a palm frond.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 8:27 AM
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34

I've visited the Castro a few times and never seen naked men just lolling about on streets corners. This is a thing?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 9:15 AM
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35

17: Bummer, Flip.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 9:16 AM
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There's a time and a place for everything, and if there is any place for naked men hanging out in public, its the Castro.

I don't think they want a medal. They just want you to admire their genitals. "Those are some fine looking genitals you have there, sir."


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 9:21 AM
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37

Halford didn't say "medal", he said they wanted "a medal for fucking".

I mean, so do I.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 9:30 AM
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I don't think they want a medal. They just want you to admire their genitals.

I dunno, a fair few are just sitting around enjoying a drink in the little parklet they've got there now. Halford's got it all wrong.

On the other hand, several of them do have admirable bodies.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 9:34 AM
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39

9.7, 9.8, 9.9, 9.9, 9.8, 6.3 from the East German judge.


Posted by: Klug | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 9:34 AM
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40

There was one in the OSF march I went to. I cannot corroborate 28 - he was just walking along like everybody else.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 9:45 AM
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41

It is a bit presumptuous to want a fucking medal just for being naked.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 9:51 AM
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In many situations I find myself wanting to say "you deserve a medal" in the manner of Linda Manz in Days of Heaven. (Gently sarcastic, more or less.) Why is it so tempting to make obscure references aloud?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 10:01 AM
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Why is it so tempting to make obscure references aloud?

I bet it's because of the incentive structure.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 10:30 AM
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It is a bit presumptuous to want a fucking medal just for being naked.

I dunno, I think I should get a MacArthur grant just for getting up every day.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 10:56 AM
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45

"Being able to expose your genitals at Castro and Market is not the goal of the LGBT civil rights movement."

Wait, what? Do tell us, what is *the* goal? Of this "LGBT" "civil rights" "movement"? GFY.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 11:21 AM
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35: It was a very long shot, but it would have been pretty damned sweet.

45: The right to choose one's own pants-related option?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 11:45 AM
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47

17: I thought you and Lunchy were solid?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 11:58 AM
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48

Also, 46.1 to 46.2.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 11:59 AM
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You know, reading the linked article (at last) I really want to hang out with 70-year-old retiree Lawrence Snyder. It sounds like we'd get along.

"To me, it's uncivilized," griped Lawrence Snyder, a 70-year-old retiree who likes to read the newspaper at least once a week in the plaza. "Even the cavemen wore a little bit of fur, a little bit of leather."

Yes!! I like both the conclusion AND the logic used to get there. Full points. And then he also says ""The ones who are nude are the ones who should keep their clothes on," he said. "That's my feeling." I love you, man.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 11:59 AM
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47: We're getting along very well, except for the odd conflict over her terrifyingly comprehensive project to civilize me. I don't understand why everything in the sink absolutely has to be washed before bedtime.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:10 PM
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You could experiment on whether this is a firm requirement by leaving odder and odder things in the sink. ("Lunchy, please don't wash Herbert. It strips the natural oils from his coat.")

I'm not sure that this is a route to relationship success, but it might pass the time.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:18 PM
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52

I think that public nudity gives young minds a healthy appreciation of human absurdity. Maybe medals are in order.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:20 PM
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53

Absurdist medals: Discuss.

I see Sisyphus happily drinking from a cup of fur a coconut dressed like a garden gnome, dangling from the honoree's shoelaces.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:27 PM
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I don't understand why everything in the sink absolutely has to be washed before bedtime.

Jammies has this affliction. Just last night he was out late and I texted him "Please forgive me. I cannot face the dishes at night." He texted back "Didn't expect you to. Xoxo." Comity!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:35 PM
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How can anyone who is not entirely comatose fail have a healthy appreciation of human absurdity in this day and age? Perhaps, someone should attempt to make a display of human dignity if only for variety's sake.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:35 PM
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54: We have an old towel we use to cover the sink.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:36 PM
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If you lived in San Francisco, you wouldn't have to cover your sink with an old towel.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:45 PM
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Perhaps, someone should attempt to make a display of human dignity if only for variety's sake.

Well, sure. For every hippie nudist in Berkeley there are at least 3 young hipsters dressed in head-to-toe tweed, plus hat.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:54 PM
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59

They have tweed on their heads, plus an additional hat?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:56 PM
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60

Can't be too sure.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 12:59 PM
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61

I really wish I could wear a hat without looking like a hipster, but I've researched the matter and I don't see how.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:01 PM
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For every hippie nudist in Berkeley there are at least 3 young hipsters dressed in head-to-toe tweed, plus hat.

More true of Oakland than Berkeley these days. Also, I got a ride this morning from a woman wearing a fedora and Wayfarers.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:03 PM
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63

If you lived in San Francisco, you'd be home by now. If you were in San Francisco.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:10 PM
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64

I don't understand why everything in the sink absolutely has to be washed before bedtime.

I don't like facing dirty dishes in the morning: it depresses me and serves as a significant mental barrier to me starting any kitchen-related activities like cooking that next day. It's like tomorrow I'll have to do all this work before I can even start doing the actual work of getting a meal ready.

So I've just made clearing out the sink a fairly ironclad part of my getting-ready-for-bed routine. Also, I make a point of cleaning as I go throughout the day to avoid there being dishearteningly heaping piles of stuff to deal with at any one time.

It usually works; I feel tired but accomplished that night, and then the next day the kitchen is excitingly ready for action.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:13 PM
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63: Not this weekend!


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:15 PM
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I don't like facing dirty dishes in the morning: it depresses me and serves as a significant mental barrier to me starting any kitchen-related activities like cooking that next day.

My brother.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:19 PM
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In the summer, piles of dirty dishes make me fear attracting bugs. In the winter, I fear mice.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:22 PM
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67: And at night, ice weasels?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:24 PM
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I fought a long, brutal* war to rid the house of mice and I don't want to start again.

* Brutal for the mice mostly.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:25 PM
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Clean as you go is the one true path. It's very low effort compared to dealing with gigantic piles of dishes. I just wish I found it as easy to apply that approach to cleaning the apartment as I do to cleaning dishes.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:27 PM
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68: Washing dishes is like racing across the frozen tundra...


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:28 PM
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Clean as you go is the one true path.

Preach it!


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:30 PM
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73

I may or may not have exchanged e-mail with a couple of people this morning regarding tweed: apparently, there used to be tweeds exceeding 16 oz. in weight, wearing which must have been like having been dipped in wet cement.

Don't judge me.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:31 PM
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A - Always, B - Be, C - Cleaning. Always Be Cleaning!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:32 PM
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75

Wait, apartments have to be cleaned? Since when?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:32 PM
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there used to be tweeds exceeding 16 oz. in weight

It comes in pints?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:35 PM
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All of you are missing one key point.

The joy of cooking is being a human cyclone in the kitchen. Methodical, one step after another "cookery" is possibly OK for elaborate baking, but otherwise is a drag. Poke around in the cabinets and fridge, take out 9 ingredients expecting to use 5, maybe including what looked good at the bodega or fish counter earlier today.

Heat, combine, spice. Eat. Drink. Clean up afterwards, yes before going to bed. But if there's exces energy or attention to clean as you go, you may as well follow a recipe instead of improvising.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:37 PM
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78

That reminds me of the woman who does the drunk cooking videos on YouTube. I haven't watched on of those in while.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:40 PM
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Clean as you go is the one true path.

I do this while cooking, but when you clear the table after dinner, there's a big pile of dishes.

(Usually our dishwasher works but it broke last week.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:41 PM
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80

Our range broke last week, but it's now fixed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:41 PM
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81

79.last: This is what children are for.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:44 PM
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82

Children are indeed great a breaking appliances.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:46 PM
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83

I don't have moral objections with leaving stuff in the sink but I discovered that leaving food out can mean a greeting by REALLY FAST-MOVING MONSTER ROACHY THINGS in the morning even before there's any caffeine in my own personal biological system. And if you clobber one of those they spatter all over the place, including one's bare ankles and like that. Don't nag me about my "privilege", I don't give a fuck.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:51 PM
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|| We know Nino is pathologicallly opposed to teh ghey, but is he seriously arguing that the Alien and Sedition Acts should be seen as Constitutional because they were in 1796? Or is he just trolling, or possibly senile? |>


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 1:59 PM
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But if there's exces energy or attention to clean as you go, you may as well follow a recipe instead of improvising.

That's just straight up bullshit. I rarely use recipes while in the kitchen (I read lots of them for inspiration, ideas, etc. when not in the kitchen). I'm all about taking what's on hand and figuring out how to put it together in tasty ways. I still clean as I go. There's always downtime.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:31 PM
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83: My mom once made herself a nice cup of tea in that semi-catatonic morning state only to have something bump against her lip when she took a sip. Seeing a big boiled roach in the cup woke her up faster than any amount of caffeine ever could. So there's an upside, sort of.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:35 PM
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87

Was the roach in the kettle, the cup, or the tea?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:42 PM
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88

The problem with receiving a medal for being naked is that you have no lapel to pin it on.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:42 PM
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And pinning it directly on one's chest, as the old saw suggests, actually kind of hurts, making that only a proper course of action if the medal is received at Folsom Street Fair.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:45 PM
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90

What, you don't have flesh lapels?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:45 PM
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91

Did you lose a great deal of weight very quickly?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:50 PM
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92

Otto!


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:53 PM
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We had cockroaches recently. They seemed to be living in the microwave so we threw it away. And then one crawled out of the radio that sat on the microwave, so we threw that away too. And then I did see one tiny one in the Sonos speaker, but that was 250 quid, so we didn't throw that away. Did get a man in to spray everywhere though, and haven't seen any sign of any since.

I can't ever wash up after dinner. I'd much rather get up in the morning and do it. I mostly get the kids to do it though.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:53 PM
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This is probably why we had cockroaches.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:55 PM
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88:
'Which one is this?'
Colonel Moodus checked his roster. 'This one is Yossarian, Dad. He gets a Distinguished Flying Cross.'
'Well, I'll be damned,' mumbled General Dreedle, and his ruddy monolithic face softened with amusement.
'Why aren't you wearing clothes, Yossarian?'
'I don't want to.'
'What do you mean you don't want to? Why the hell don't you want to?'
'I just don't want to, sir.'

Also, Otto!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:56 PM
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96

I admit I would be delighted if having expensive speakers attracted roaches.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:57 PM
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97

I got a few of the "Combat" roach motel things in their "Colossal Destroyer of Tokyo" size and tossed them under the sink and in the cabinets nearby. That seems to have worked.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:58 PM
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94: Not to mention it being an unmistakable sign of disfavor in the eyes of God for something or other. Maybe work on that.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 2:58 PM
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97: That's similar to how I got rid of the mice, but removing glue traps is probably worse.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 3:06 PM
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52 gets it exactly right. You don't want to deal with the fact that other people have bodies? Tough!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 3:07 PM
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re: 96

There's speaks some who isn't a hifi snob/buff.

I've never [touch wood, genuflect in direction of infestation gods] lived anywhere with a cockroach or mouse problem. I did once have to chase down a bat which invaded our house, though. Scared the utter shit out of me. Turns out bats in a living room are quite freaky. and then the little sods crawl under the door when you shut them in.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 3:08 PM
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Otto! Seconded


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 3:25 PM
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103

Throwing out any object that a roach has been spotted on doesn't sound like a good strategy.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 3:34 PM
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104

The problem with receiving a medal for being naked is that you have no lapel to pin it on.

Lack of lapels has never been a problem at the Olympics, as far as I know.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 5-12 4:11 PM
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103 - Not just spotted on, but baby ones crawling out of small holes. They frequently seem to live inside electronic things, and the thought of dozens? Hundreds? THOUSANDS of them living in the microwave was just too vomit-inducing to make trying to deal with it appealing. I didn't even think about the radio, it was just, oh fuck, they're in there too, GET RID OF IT.

98 - oh, I know. We are terrible people.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 12:53 PM
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106

I still have the dishwasher that the rats were living behind, but in fairness I convinced myself that there was no way they ever got into the dishwasher and also that thing is being cleaned all the time, right? There was about a week where I contemplated burning down my own house to get rid of them and their ratty essence.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 1:03 PM
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106: How did you get rid of them, anyway? I forget. Ugh ugh ugh ugh.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 1:10 PM
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108


How did you get rid of them, anyway?

Strange dude with a pipe from Hameln. That's how Halford became a non-custodial parent.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 1:15 PM
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Traps everywhere, plus poison all over the place, plus moving every moveable thing out of the kitchen and basement to have room for the traps and poison. Kid had to stay out of the kitchen for like two weeks which was a pain.

They've been kept out by the GFs cats who are STRAIGHT UP VERMIN KILLING BADASS and also some stray cats that a neighbor has been feeding. So we're all good.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 1:19 PM
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110

Until, one night, the cats become aware of their power.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 1:29 PM
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111

There was a point, when I was living in a house with five other people in DC, when I would walk into the kitchen, see the insects on the floor, see the dirty dishes in the sink, see other insects on the counter, and just turn around and go out to buy dinner somewhere. Also, for a few weeks, racoons toured the inside of the walls until the landlord finally got someone to close a hole in the roof. And when I moved to a larger room, shortly before I moved out, I got attacked by mites and had to go to urgent care to deal with the results.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 1:34 PM
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110: That is still a concern, they continue trying to trip me on the stairs. The DeathCam system did work though, one of my kids called to check after not seeing the calendar changed for a day and the cat's food bowls empty. At least there will be enough of me left to identify.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 1:36 PM
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Strangely enough I'm not sure I've seen cockroaches in Ireland. My mother is positive she's never seen one. We must have them in the country I suppose. But they are not an issue in re food left out. ( Mice otoh, almost impossible to get rid of in my childhood.) Can't be the climate unless it's just too damp.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 2:03 PM
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114

Maybe it's too cold? Cockroaches generally prefer warm climates.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 2:14 PM
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It's a very mild very damp climate. Like anything over 20C has Irish people out in the shorts and vest tops. Then if it goes below 0C for more than a few days we can't cope. We had a real winter about two years ago and the entire country ran out of road salt after 5 days.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 3:59 PM
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I have experience with all kids of bugs and mice inside my various apartment, but never roaches. The only roaches I ever see are on the sidewalk.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:06 PM
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Cockroaches only survive outside of the tropics because we heat our buildings. Have they brought indoor heating to the Irish yet?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:14 PM
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114: Teo, roaches did just fine in central Alabama even though the temps got well below freezing for some days each winter. We had a major infestation early on 'cause we weren't used to thinking about bug armies along the lines of a Soviet invasion. Lots of chemicals did the trick finally but it was nasty.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:17 PM
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Yes, though we would probably survive without albeit with chilblains (based on my memories pre age 7 when we got central heating). I know you were being funny but lots of less well off people still depend on open fires or maybe gas cylinder heaters. (Btw I think the concept of "well off" could bd useful in those USian discussions where people get bogged down on whether 200,000/family/annum is rich or middle class.)


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:33 PM
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I have never seen a cockroach in Alaska. That's not to say there are none, of course.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:37 PM
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I hate you all for being on Lee's team and thinking I should be keeping the sink empty and immaculate. I'm really lazy about that and also frustrated because I do all the cooking and it's stupid that her squeamishness about doing dishes should get her out of it when I'm just going to be grumpy about doing it myself. We have a dishwasher at this house (Hallelujah!) but it's portable and has to be hooked up to the sink with a hose and she's played the fucking game where she claims not to be able to learn how to use it and so turning it on is my job. I think that's the reason I'm most bitter, but now I know most of the rest of your are judging my laziness. Alas!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:43 PM
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To emir's point, our house is heated by steam radiators that are presumably more than 100 years old and they are awesome. We are feeling toasty and our energy bill for this 6-bedroom will be less than our drafty 2-bedroom with forced air was.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:44 PM
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121: Have you thought of the 2x4 treatment for stubborn learning problems of the passive-aggressive sort?


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:49 PM
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119: My brother was in Dublin in 1994 and complained that nothing was heated.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:50 PM
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123: In some respects, being a pacifist sucks. This is one of the situations where I'm choosing my battles but being passive-aggressive about the one I didn't choose, which is really not fair but still (I think) understandable. I know I say a lot of negative things about her here, but I should have commented in the post that ended up being about it that it really is hard to be in a relationship with me and I do know that.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:53 PM
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p.s. Mara and Nia were playing My Little Ponies today and Mara announced "I'm Princess Molestia!" I really don't want to google whether this is something bronies say too.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:54 PM
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124: depends where he was staying. We come from a culture of perceived expensive fuel/power. ( google Des Bishop + immersion).


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:56 PM
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I know most of the rest of your are judging my laziness.
Nope. I'm now judging Lee's convenient squeamishness and helplessness. I'm precluded from judging laziness.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 4:59 PM
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128: She totally admits it's convenient and that if she had no alternative, she'd have to deal with things she hates, like the messiness of child eaters. But squeamishness is a weird thing, like how I haven't asked the Mineshaft how I know when my eggplant is ripe because it sounds disrespectful (and/or like a pickup line) toward you.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:02 PM
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I probably should shower today.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:03 PM
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Now I feel guilty about my attempted joke in 117. There are a lot of people, non-Irish even, who spend much of their time cold.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:04 PM
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121: Oh no. You don't get to not cook, insist dishes be done immediately, and claim squeamishness about doing dishes your own damn self.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:07 PM
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I know most of the rest of your are judging my laziness

Good lord, no. I myself prefer a clean sink, but my housemate does not, and I'm not going to clean up after him within the hour. (I'll just say things from time to time, like "I'm trying to keep on top of this, but if you could help it would be great." That seems to work somewhat.) Compromises must be made, you know? He doesn't like my piles of books either.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:07 PM
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I barely ever do the dishes. I rinse things, and put them in the sink, and then sort of halfheartedly actually wash them all every few days maybe. Or I do a really good job of washing everything if someone else might be coming into the house and I want to impress them with how grown-up I am.

(Unless I'm cooking something elaborate, then I wash as I go. Mostly I eat sandwiches and bowls of salad though so it doesn't matter very much.)

I don't really mind washing dishes, I just don't care if they get washed or not, so I don't. Solidly on Team Thorn.

Also tell Lee if you do the cooking it's her turn to wash the dishes. Everyone knows that.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:09 PM
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The one who cooks shouldn't also scull, as it was recently put to me.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:12 PM
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Also tell Lee if you do the cooking it's her turn to wash the dishes. Everyone knows that.

Yes. This is basic, an absolute non-negotiable unless dealing with a famous physicist with ALS. Everyone else washes.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:13 PM
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See, now I feel bad for making people judge Lee. She's doing so well on the whole with Nia and in reality there are many things I'd rather she do before keeping up with dishes, and she's doing well with a lot of them. This is just, like, an imaginary universe in which I get what I want a lot more. And yes, everyone knows the cook/clean break, but that just means she lectures me about how when she cooks she cleans as she goes, which is first of all something that happens about quarterly and second of all a lie. But M/tch can manage it, and I can console myself by saying that I don't/can't because I'm also generally supervising homework and whatever else is going on while I cook, which cuts into my downtime. (I'm also having all kinds of weird emotional responses to the Jessica Valenti piece Amber linked to from her blog today, but I probably won't write about that unless I have more to drink. Literally being a mom as a job is weird and messes with how I see myself and my obligations, I think, but maybe I'd be like this no matter what.)

At any rate, I've already emptied and loaded the dishwasher for the second time today, which always feels wasteful but is necessary, and will run it after the girls are done with their bath. If we didn't have a dishwasher, I'd cry all the time or something.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:14 PM
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Everyone knows that.
This arrangement can have bad incentives, depending on the relationship between cook and washer.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:14 PM
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(Also, emptying the dishwasher was supposed to be Lee's job, and I'm still bitter about that. But she's doing basically all the laundry, though griping at me about how slow I am to put it away. I am bitter and petty and apparently need robot slaves or something. Or more wine, which I think is the plan now. Oh, except that Mara wants to get out of the tub, which means internet time is over.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:16 PM
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Thorn, cut yourself some slack. Please.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:27 PM
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Better yet, have Lee cut some slack for you.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:28 PM
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Or just cut holes in Lee's slacks while she's not looking and then act real mystified. Maybe there's a ghost! Dunno! Weird!


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:30 PM
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142 is funny.

Seriously, though, although Thorn said she's off the internet, she (you, Thorn) sound a little bit like you're afraid you're going to be beat up or something if you don't meet all expectations, however unfair they may be. I'm unsettled by the language about how hard you are to be with. That's in comment 125.

I don't think that's a good way to go about things, given how much you clearly do. Telling yourself (and others) that you're still very hard to put up with ... really makes no sense. You sound like you're channeling either what Lee tells you or what some inner voice tells you. It sounds like you're expecting too much of yourself.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:45 PM
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Sorry for the very stilted language there; I'm speaking as gently as I can.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 5:48 PM
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I don't think that thinking I'm hard to be with is a perfectionism thing. People didn't push back hard when AWB said the same thing about herself and I do think it's fair. I'm demanding and a bit of an energy suck, but also incredibly devoted and a hard worker on a lot of fronts, not to mention one of the most sexy and endearing commenters on the entire internet, of course. I think 100% of my exes, good or bad, would agree that it's exhausting to even think about meeting all my wants in a relationship, let alone needs. Dishes and whatnot are mostly separate from that.

Mostly if I'm feeling bad about saying things here, it's because I was so negative about Lee a year ago when Val and Alex were with us and she was in absolute free-fall. She has made so much progress since then, or else I can really say we wouldn't be together. There are still things that are hard for her that aren't for a "normal" person who doesn't have her background (and this is emotional/parenting, not a dishes excuse) but I would rather have her focus her energy on doing better there rather thatn getting stuck in our boring domestic disputes, and she really has been putting in the work on that front and making huge progress. It does mean I pull too much weight if we're meant to be absolute equals, but if the goal is for each of us to do as much as we can and help each other as much as we feel able, we're both doing ok but with room for improvement. If the goal is to be reasonable humans who fail some of the time at managing a whole household but keep the kids safe/healthy/growing and who love each other, then we're doing pretty darn well.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 6:04 PM
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And Lee wouldn't say I'm hard to be with unless you knew the right questions to ask. She'd say I'm a saint, which I hate and which she knows I hate. But I am hard for her to be with in certain ways, and she also knows that it's good for her to be stretched in (most of?) those ways even if it's uncomfortable, so it's not that she regrets or even necessarily resents the hard parts, but they're there.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 6:07 PM
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Okay.

Demanding energy sucks are kind of a drag, I admit: you don't remotely sound like one of them (and I've just been introduced to one, so I know what it looks like), but I'll take your word for it.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 6:13 PM
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Actually, the demanding energy suck hard worker I've become acquainted with is in my orbit a couple of times a week now.

This is, I think, a thing: someone who's busy all the time. If she's not cooking, she's vacuuming; if she's not mopping the kitchen floor, she's pulling weeds in the garden; if she's not on the phone with the local church regarding their annual budget, she's baking; or declaring that the gutters need to be cleaned, or the accounting needs some work.

I find it rather horrible.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 6:25 PM
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if the goal is for each of us to do as much as we can and help each other as much as we feel able

I don't get it. How do you tell who is wins the relationship when the goal is non-rivalrous?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 6:26 PM
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Apparently, I couldn't decide between "is winning" and "wins".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 6:27 PM
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What Oudemia said in 132. You can work things out that you cook and do the dishes, but it's unreasonable that you should have to cook, do the dishes, and do it to her standards and on her schedule. And of course it's your relationship and you do what works for the two of you, and if she has standards she has standards, but you shouldn't be feeling even a little bad internally about failing to meet those standards.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 6:37 PM
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151 is totally true and I think we both know it, which helps. It's not something she harps on constantly, but I know I'm not doing it to her preferences, just like when there are things on the floor on my side of the bed. And in both cases, too damn bad because I have better things to do. But I'm trying to be mindful of it because I'm sure some of the things she does that drive me crazy fall into that same pattern.

And obviously I win the relationship, of course. I wouldn't play otherwise. And parsi's always-active energy suck is sounding awfully familiar, unfortunately. I'm good enough at accepting that not all my preferences will be met ina. Relationship because there aren't enough hours in a day, so maybe I'm not that demanding if I don't actually make the demands, but both of us know they're implicit and that's kind of lousy.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 6:51 PM
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The Dwarf Lord gets the side of the bed near the wall and away from the door, and mostly I just don't look. So far the stuff hasn't overtopped the mattress.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 7:01 PM
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I wouldn't be able to abide a standard according to which you can't have some tossed clothes and socks on the floor in the bedroom.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 7:07 PM
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||
Any U. Texas fans in this thread I can taunt? 'Smasher?
|>


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 7:38 PM
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You can taunt me! Why, what happened?


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 8:21 PM
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Oh, nuthin'. Jessin' some hillbillies done come a' visitin'.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 8:44 PM
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I watched Florida upset LSU at dinner, and then listened on the radio to NC State upset -- in a great 4 minutes of football -- FSU. We have only taunt half the Floridians.

I have no idea why anyone would prefer the games tomorrow to either of those games today.

Scare from the Aggies, but the Cats finally won it 48-41.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 9:07 PM
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148: It's not necessarily pathological, she might simply be tuned that way. I noticed way back that the kiddie medical students were selected for a high energy level. Those few that were admitted without it didn't last all that long.

(And then there's prednisone. Fantastic stuff for getting the house clean until the side effects do you in.)


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 6-12 10:53 PM
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||

This is my favourite news story today:

Both sides made significant concessions, he said: the MILF in agreeing to autonomy rather than independence and the government conceding that a new framework for greater self-government in Mindanao had to be shaped by the rebel group. This placed trust in the MILF to bring into the fold dissenting voices. He said: "It's a huge responsibility on the MILF's shoulders right now.

|>


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:15 AM
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There has been a ceasefire between the MILF and the government and, as far as we know, this year there have been zero skirmishes between them.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:25 AM
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Slate had a link to a story about "MILF Island" in heavy rotation as clickbait there for a while.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:33 AM
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OT: Could someone please give me the lecture about not getting involved in other people's psychosexual drama? That it may seem really really appealing now, but it will definitely ruin my life? Thanks.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:36 AM
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Do not get involved in other people's psychosexual drama. It's not worth it. It might be interesting and lend you an air of sophistication to do so when you're 18, but once you've acquired enough gravitas that you don't bounce, it's a mug's game


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:44 AM
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That's very true what you say, Chris. Thank you.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:47 AM
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163: Anything classified as "drama" is only good for the people initiating it. (they initiate it because they do get something out of it even if it's only self-stim) Everyone else is Gallagher's audience, at minimum spattered with bits of food, sometimes hit with a flying sledgehammer when the principals lose grip.

If you're simply bored order a more powerful vibrator from Amazon rather than getting closer to someone else's wreck.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:49 AM
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Shorter 166 is 164.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:51 AM
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That is an interesting and useful perspective, Bio, and I will keep it in mind. It isn't about me, though it sometimes feels like it is. There are forces and anxieties at play here that I am not privy to, and cannot participate in without causing pain to myself and others.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:52 AM
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163: Bob Crane's life story is a good starting point.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 9:15 AM
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169: Good, yes! Exactly. That is how people end up bludgeoned to death. Good point.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 10:43 AM
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It's one of the ways people end up bludgeoned to death. Let's not get essentialist.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 12:21 PM
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Let's not be hasty, people! Getting involved in other people's psychosexual drama can be an incredibly fruitful source of interesting comment threads.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 12:50 PM
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Maybe we could get involved in said drama on AWB's behalf.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 12:53 PM
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Or she could just tell us about it and we could discuss it for a few hundred comments.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 12:55 PM
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I don't know. I think this is a bad one. A friend told me last night that he is in love with me, that he wants a life with me, etc., and he said all of this in front of his very lovely--now crying--young wife. I couldn't really think of what to do, or figure out what he means. So I did the weirdest thing possible and invited them to my house, two doors down from theirs, to sleep in my guestroom and we'd all see each other in the morning. We did, there were hugs all around, and now what? Nothing, I suppose.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 12:57 PM
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Holy shit. Yeah, stay the hell away from that.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 12:59 PM
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Yeah, I think he seems to think this is all part of his relationship with his wife--his love for me, his love for her, and that I should be a part of their life. But it does not seem to me that she has any idea what he's talking about. I certainly don't understand what he wants to happen, and I don't think he does either. But it seems incredibly uncomfortable for her.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:06 PM
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Wow, 177 is impressively insane. Have you renewed your passport and looked into leaves of absence and cheap airfares to Thailand? Because I think getting the hell out of Dodge may be in your future.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:11 PM
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Yes. Somebody is going to get murdered. She may get him and leave it at that. However, if he snaps first, he may be the sort to want to an inclusive round of bludgeoning.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:20 PM
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Oh geez. This guy sounds like a real gem of a self-absorbed manipulative asshole.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:23 PM
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Can we at least assume he was very, very drunk at the time he said this stuff?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:25 PM
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Oof. Is it possible to completely avoid this person for the rest of your time where you are, after perhaps a flat explanatory note?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:29 PM
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I agree with everyone that this is insane, but also, how long have you known this guy? You just moved to Wolf Cub U a couple of months ago -- he's worked himself into this kind of state that fast?

Anyway, disengage disengage disengage. Maybe ask the wife for help -- you're very fond of the both of them, can't imagine what he's thinking, and does she have any ideas for how o make this all have never happened.

Or change your name and move to Argentina.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:34 PM
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A flat note is fine in most cases, but maybe you do want an actual stele.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:36 PM
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You just moved to Wolf Cub U a couple of months ago -- he's worked himself into this kind of state that fast?

Oh, it doesn't take very long for CRAZY.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:37 PM
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Not really. I mean, I think we have to deal with it somehow. I'm grateful in one respect that none of it is secret; everyone knows what everyone knows, and there's nothing invisible going on. I don't think his feelings are stupid or crazy, but I do think there has to be a way to process them without disrespecting his marriage. The craziness, I think, is expressing those feelings without a good set of boundaries or expectations.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:38 PM
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Tell him to back the fuck off, and then disengage completely. There is no version of this where you engage and there's a happy ending. It is not your responsibility to help him sort through the ways in which he is confused, an asshole, or being a confused asshole. The wife is not going to want your help and you are exceedingly poorly placed to give it.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:38 PM
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186 to 182.

183: I know. It's been a weird time. I honestly think it's all going to be fine once we figure out what the solution is. He's not a *raving* lunatic.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:41 PM
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Cala & LB are clearly right, but it's a shame, because this could lead to some great comment threads in the future.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:41 PM
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He may not be a *raving* lunatic but he's pretty clearly a psychologically abuser of his wife.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:42 PM
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s/b psychological


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:43 PM
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He may not be floridly psychotic, but he still sounds like a Charybdis of drama which attempting to "figure out" will just make worse.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:44 PM
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For you, that is. Perhaps his wife can figure him out, but I think both you and they would be better off with you disengaged.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:45 PM
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Did you buy a house there? Are you renting? What are the lease terms? You need to move to the other side of town ASAP.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:46 PM
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Agreed with all, yes. I think some time and sunshine will make things right.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:47 PM
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I'm not being stalked or anything. It's not an emergency. It just feels like a situation that I need to let them sort out for themselves.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:49 PM
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No, I realize it's not a stalking situation (yet) but two doors down is weird.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:51 PM
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It occurs to me that maybe you should have made the "awkward turtle is awkward" hand gesture and changed the subject?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:52 PM
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Yes, disengage and do so very firmly and clearly. There is no way you won't end up being the evil bitch in this story for one or both of them and there's absolutely nothing stylish available in Kevlar for women, I just checked that.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:53 PM
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Wait, is that what "awkward turtle" is for? Damn.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:53 PM
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Yeah, I can't see that you have any role to play, other (possibly) than to let the wife know that you are not playing.

Argentina is nice this time of year.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 1:55 PM
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So I did the weirdest thing possible and invited them to my house

This is some black belt shit. I want to say "I approve," but that's like Jimmy Olsen telling Superman he approves.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:03 PM
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175: there were hugs all around

I'm confused about this part. Did the wife know the husband had these beliefs/feelings about you, and she considers him to just be going through something which doesn't really have anything to do with you? I can't make out how there were hugs all around, since that sounds like an "all is forgiven" thing on all sides, including the wife's.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:04 PM
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199: They make Kevlar corsets, but really not very good protection.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:04 PM
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202: Thanks. It seems kind of brilliant in retrospect.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:04 PM
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I haven't noticed it mentioned or asked yet, so

MPB, have you fucked him? Is that what "everyone knows what everyone knows?"


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:06 PM
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203: Yeah, it felt nice, settled. She never seemed angry last night, certainly not at me. She just got sad at one point in the conversation, when I tried to turn it to be about them, rather than about me. I'm hoping she has the balls to stand up for herself when they're alone, though.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:09 PM
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206: Not at all. I am chaste as the day is long. No physical contact whatsoever.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:10 PM
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205: 202: Yeah, this might be recorded as being as brilliant as the solution to the Kobayashi Maru test.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:12 PM
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202: Thanks. It seems kind of brilliant in retrospect.

Yes, nice work.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:12 PM
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I think it's a little quick to jump to CRAZY. It's a fucked-up thing to do, but imagine that he made this confession _not_ in front of his wife. Then it wouldn't be crazy at all, just an ordinary attempt to have an affair. Doing it in front of his wife is odd, but I've heard odder. He probably talked himself into the idea that it was the mature thing to do.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:16 PM
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211: He's trying to have his wife end the marriage.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:20 PM
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211: He was angling for a three way.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:21 PM
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211: I've made it sound like a dramatic confession, which it wasn't. It was a really long, difficult conversation that had a peak at a certain point. I am certainly glad he said it in front of his wife, if he was going to say it at all. Perhaps making his feelings explicit will force him to figure out what the fuck he means by it. I agree that if he wanted to have an affair, he would have said so without her there. Basically, I don't think it's a sex thing, which kind of makes it worse.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:22 PM
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213: Whenever I hear "Three Way," I want Cincinnati-style chili. And I can't have any because they don't have it here.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:23 PM
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213: It came up, but the instant he said it out loud it was obviously a dumb idea. None of us wants that.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:24 PM
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Basically, I don't think it's a sex thing, which kind of makes it worse.

"Dammit, now I'm getting drawn into bizarre love triangles without even getting laid!"


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:27 PM
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So ... suppose the wife (and he) decide that what he wants is an open marriage, and she decides she's okay with that. If he approaches you -- or both of them do! -- do you go ahead and sleep with him?

This is appallingly fascinating. I'd be inclined to stay away (mostly because he said he wants a life with you, which isn't quite the same thing as having an affair); on the other hand, I believe some polyamorous people do go about things this way, minus the springing it on your wife unawares bit.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:31 PM
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I just mean there's stuff you can do about a sex thing. You can fantasize, or even act on it, with really clear terms and limitations. I'd fuck them if they were both into it and cool-headed about it. It would get it out of the system. But this is pretty clearly not about sex.

I think the answer might be for me to start an affair with someone else as quickly as possible.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:32 PM
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Oh, sorry, I missed the "it's not a sex thing."

Never mind, then.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:33 PM
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...minus the springing it on your wife unawares bit.

That is a pretty big bit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:33 PM
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219 -- The wife. That'll get the ball moved downfield.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:34 PM
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I think the answer might be for me to start an affair with someone else as quickly as possible with someone who will be delighted to be part of a cover story.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:35 PM
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219 before reading 218. I think he believes she will go along with some kind of relationship between us. I think it's pretty obvious that she is not on board but might pretend she is because she doesn't want to lose him.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:36 PM
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222: hee.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:38 PM
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224: might pretend she is because she doesn't want to lose him.

Bad news; given that it'd be difficult for you to tell the difference between her freely given consent and constrained consent, I don't see how you could go along. That's why the "hugs all around" thing seemed odd to me: it sets the stage for a fakey 'everybody's friends here, right?' routine that the wife may not be sincerely participating in.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:43 PM
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226: Exactly. She is also much younger than us. I don't want to infantilize her, but I get the sense that he is a bit of a benevolent dictator with her. He isn't that way with me or our other friends at all, so the first time I saw it, I was thrown.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:48 PM
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Anyway, you don't seem to have been granted much agency in this, which is annoying of him, obviously, but I don't think he's thinking past his own skull at the moment.

I can see how he's doing the best he can and isn't necessarily a complete asshole. As you said upthread, it's the boundaries thing.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:49 PM
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Seriously, he's bad news.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:51 PM
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I mean, he sure sounds like the sort of asshole who has managed to put everyone in a horribly uncomfortable position whilst getting you to worry, at least in part, about what poor old he is going through. If he has feeeeelings that he was just too tormented about to hold in, he should've had a beer with a level headed friend who isn't you or his wife and poured out his soul.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:54 PM
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Yeah, I'm kind of back to the psychological abuse of the wife thing.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:55 PM
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People are people so why should it be,
you squick your wife while in the room with me.


Posted by: Opinionated Depeche Mode | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:55 PM
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I am backing off until things cool down. I can't handle evenings of that intensity. I don't think I'll have to do anything drastic, though.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:56 PM
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231: Yep. And being emotionally manipulative with our presidentially ursine friend, too.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:56 PM
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We do have an extremely level-headed friend in common, with whom we each play a one-on-one sport once a week! I almost forgot about that. Other Guy will know what to say to him.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 2:58 PM
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Other Guy may know if he's done this before.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:00 PM
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236: Alas, we're all new to one another. Other Guy and I have discussed him, and our relationships with him, on a number of occasions. Theirs, apparently, does not involve quite so much crying.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:02 PM
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So this is escalating emotional drama? He is no good terrible very bad news.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:04 PM
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Theirs, apparently, does not involve quite so much crying.

Unless I missed something above, I think this needs a bit more explanation.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:15 PM
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Clearly Other Guy is the prime candidate for 219.last


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:18 PM
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I think 240 might be correct. Really nice, thoughtful, pleasant, intelligent person.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:21 PM
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And in other news, I located the bleeping smoke detector using the one ear that works, then climbed a ladder despite the no-balance thing and changed the battery without killing myself. I'd rather be in the middle of the Current Drama than do that again.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:23 PM
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237 & 239: Oh, or perhaps you mean the wife's crying? I was reading it as your relationship with the guy involving crying.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:23 PM
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243: No, it's me doing the crying usually. I'm just having a hard time explaining why.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:27 PM
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But are you crying with guy? Or are you crying with other guy? Or both?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:28 PM
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I cry kind of a lot, so I'm not sure it's a measure of much. Maybe "tear up" is more accurate. With the guy, not other guy. I also tear up at choir practice, and sometimes in class, and occasionally in my office. It's not a sad thing.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:33 PM
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Tear up as a result of things you talk about, or because of the beauty of the moment with him or the futility of it all with him or something like that?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:34 PM
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For what it's worth, if it were me involved in this, I'd be pretty careful about dragging Other Guy into this. That is, tell him about it if you want (though I'm not sure I would), but I'd try to be clear that you're not asking him to talk to the First Guy. Basically, that sucks yet another person into the vortex First Guy has created. It also potentially embarrasses the wife.

It's exactly how psychodramas explode, is what I'm thinking.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:36 PM
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247: The first! Whatever other drama is going on is really his thing.

248: No, I don't need an intercessor, and I agree that it would make everything weird. But he is very close with both of them, has them over frequently, etc., and knows about our friendship. He might have advice.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:39 PM
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Of course, I'm all about teh privacy, and kind of get freaked out when people are all up in other people's business. Not everybody is constructed the same way.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:42 PM
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Backing the fuck off does not mean making it The Other Guy's problem. If they want to reach out to him, they can. If you need someone to talk to, that's great, if he doesn't assume he is now to be a mediator between you all.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:42 PM
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No, not as a mediator. That would be terrible.

As far as privacy goes, there really isn't any. I'm sure people saw them leaving my house this morning and have questions, which they will ask. Every house on this block has our friends in it.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:44 PM
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The sensible thing that will cause the least harm is for you to say a few words of support to Wife and then get as far away as possible from both of them.

Which is why I'm recommending that you start up an affair with Wife, convince him to separate from her husband, and go on a vacation with her to an exotic location. Then send him taunting pictures of the two of you looking sexy at the beach.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:52 PM
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which they will ask

Oh gawd. I'm afraid I'd be a little frosty in my responses.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:52 PM
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I'm sure people saw them leaving my house this morning and have questions

Wow, even the 625-person town I grew up near wasn't that bad. How would people know they were there? If they live two doors down, they didn't drive there, right?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 3:57 PM
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253 talks sense!

Yeah, people here are nosy, but mostly because we don't have much good gossip and it's not meant in cruelty. Nothing happened between us, so there's nothing to hide. They slept over.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 4:01 PM
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"If you want Sunday breakfast with the Bear, you have to get there really early."


Posted by: CCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 4:02 PM
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Oh, right, they live two doors down. The white lies I was thinking of (um, they were a little too tipsy to drive, so they stayed over ...) wouldn't work.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 4:04 PM
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258: No, but "We were up all night talking, all three of us, in a totally drama-free way," is still plausible, right? That said, I think 253.last is best for everyone.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 4:22 PM
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I'm still confused about this. Is everyone looking out their front windows every single minute, so that they would definitely know exactly when the couple went home? Did one person see it and tell everyone else? Does the couple live in a multi-family, and someone else who lives there reported to everyone else that they didn't return home until this morning?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 4:40 PM
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I'm sure people saw them leaving my house this morning and have questions

Jonathan Richman has a (good) song on the topic.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 4:41 PM
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260: (1) Yes, due to loud dry leaves. (2) This happens a lot. (3) Yes, we're friends with the other people in their home. None of it matters, as we are all very low-key about interpretation, but we comment on seeing one another come and go at weird times. It sounds awful, but it's kind of nice.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 4:43 PM
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"We were all up late and they decided to crash here."


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 4:56 PM
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I get the sense that he is a bit of a benevolent dictator with her.

Benevolent. Hmm.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 5:17 PM
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Wow. I rarely even notice who else is leaving or arriving at the other apartments in the house I live in, much less the surrounding ones, dry leaves or no. I guess I'm not very perceptive?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 5:43 PM
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My view, based on conversations with a surprisingly large number of women in vaguely similar situations, is that any person who says they are in love with you before you've had sex is a psychopath to flee from ASAP. I'll grant an exception if you're both Mormons or something. And of course the guy MPB is at the psycho extreme of the psycho dude spectrum.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 5:43 PM
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My view, based on conversations with a surprisingly large number of women in vaguely similar situations, is that any person who says they are in love with you before you've had sex is a psychopath to flee from ASAP.

Maybe you should stop declaring your love then?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 5:51 PM
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My view, based on conversations with a surprisingly large number of women in vaguely similar situations, is that any person who says they are in love with you before you've had sex is a psychopath to flee from ASAP.

Hmmm, this strikes me as both plausible (without any basis for knowledge) and weirdly reinforcing gender norms.

Does this fall into the category of "people who do things which are counter to gender socialization (and which are a little weird even in the absence of gender socialization) are likely to be either crazy or bad at learning social cues and difficult to interact with?

I ask because my reflex is to want to open up more space for non-gender conforming behavior, but this probably isn't the occasion to do so.

[I'll be away from the computer for most of the evening, so hopefully I can start a fight about feminism and then miss most of it.]


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:31 PM
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Is that really that gender-normed a statement? I'd think that a pre-sex declaration of love (among American adults -- say, over 21) in this or a recent decade would be at least unusual from a woman as well as from a man. Absolutely diagnostic of psychopathy, eh, maybe not, but weird.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:36 PM
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What if it's from a cat?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:37 PM
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270: If you're worried that a cat has said it's in love with you before you've had sex with it, whether the cat is a psychopath is the least of your problems. I mean, the cat probably is a psychopath, they mostly are, but that's not the main issue.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:39 PM
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What if it's a boy cat, though?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:41 PM
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Is it spraying the furniture?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:42 PM
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Don't have sex with a cat, regardless of what it says.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:43 PM
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Man. This shit is tricky.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:44 PM
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I think the answer might be for me to start an affair with someone else as quickly as possible

Isn't this going to complicate things by making him jealous?


Posted by: YK | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:55 PM
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You know, I don't think "pre-sex" necessarily makes a declaration of love psychopathic. Some people do still wait to have sex until they are in love (or even engaged, or married) and I don't think that makes them psycho. But certainly, declaring that you want to spend your life with someone you aren't in a relationship with falls on the psycho side of whatever line is drawn. (Unless maybe there's another exception to carve out for arranged marriages or something.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:56 PM
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I'd think that a pre-sex declaration of love (among American adults -- say, over 21) in this or a recent decade would be at least unusual from a woman as well as from a man. Absolutely diagnostic of psychopathy, eh, maybe not, but weird.

Ok, well, uh, maybe just delete that most recent email from me unread, then, ok?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:57 PM
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278: Does this mean you've forgotten that one magic night back in '09?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 6:59 PM
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But certainly, declaring that you want to spend your life with someone you aren't in a relationship with falls on the psycho side of whatever line is drawn. (Unless maybe there's another exception to carve out for arranged marriages or something.)

It also matters whether or not the declaration is sincere.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:00 PM
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I think this whole discussion has assumed a sincere declaration.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:03 PM
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Barring the bits about cats, who really can't be trusted with this sort of thing.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:05 PM
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Yeah, I mean, you can't really tell if a cat is being sincere about anything.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:06 PM
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But certainly, declaring that you want to spend your life with someone you aren't in a relationship with falls on the psycho side of whatever line is drawn.

Bonus points if you do it with your wife present, and use the occasion to float the idea of a threesome.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:07 PM
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Shouldn't Bob Costa forehead move when he talks?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:08 PM
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Allow me to be the first to say, emphatically, I am opposed to this proposal. And I have a comfortable couch for sleeping on, if it becomes needed.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:10 PM
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284: Yes, it really is crazy!

Luckily, though, I don't think it's the same kind of crazy as obsessive jealous stalking crazy. I think if I were to put my libidinal energies into an obviously other target he would be content to be neighbor-coworkers. That is, I don't think it's mental-illness crazy; it's raised-by-wolves crazy.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:11 PM
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No worry. Halftime ends and he goes away.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:11 PM
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Allow me to be the first to say, emphatically, I am opposed to this proposal.

You're opposed enough to speak emphatically—but not enough to hire someone to skywrite a giant "no"?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:12 PM
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His name might be Costas. I forget.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:15 PM
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287.1 to 285.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:17 PM
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Is there such a thing as a nonobviously other target?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:18 PM
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The world is full of others.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:21 PM
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I think if the "over 21" bit wasn't there I might have said something once that qualified for psychopathy. But I was a teenager and didn't really didn't know what I was doing. Among adults it does seem pretty weird.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:21 PM
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The world is full of otters!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:22 PM
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raised-by-wolves crazy.

I haven't spoken wolf in ages.


Posted by: YK | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:24 PM
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I was going to buy an otter hound for protection but it turns out they just find the otter. I'd still have to kill it myself.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:24 PM
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That is, I don't think it's mental-illness crazy; it's raised-by-wolves crazy.

I'm don't have a good idea of what raised-by-wolves crazy entails, but it sounds like bad news.

Oh, and I've been hearing "Portions for Foxes" in my head each time I come back to this thread. Bad news!


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:28 PM
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I'm pretty sure there's a way to say "no" in wolf without having to fuck another wolf.


Posted by: YK | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:36 PM
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299: There probably isn't, for a female. Nature sucks about that kind of thing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:39 PM
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229

Seriously, he's bad news.

I agree.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:41 PM
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Luckily, though, I don't think it's the same kind of crazy as obsessive jealous stalking crazy.

Yeah. I'd be concerned about his wife, but not because he's crazy. He just sounds like an opportunist to me.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:43 PM
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He just sounds like an opportunist to me.

If he were being opportunistic, I think he'd have a better plan. What's dangerous about it is that there is no plan. I think there is some fantasy there, but no real thought about how or whether to import aspects of that fantasy into life.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:48 PM
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If he were being opportunistic, I think he'd have a better plan

Crimes of opportunity aren't so called because they aren't planned.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:50 PM
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He realizes you're only going to be there for a year, right? That makes the whole thing seem extra crazy.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:52 PM
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289.--I looked into skywriting costs last time I threatened this. And no, I will not be hiring a skywriter any time soon. It's cheaper than one might imagine (maybe $2K, probably more), but out of my price range. I would do pom-poms, though.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:52 PM
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If only we knew a way to collectively raise $2000 for a worthy cause...


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:54 PM
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305: I would argue that it makes the whole thing seem extra opportunistic.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 7:59 PM
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305: There are developments on that front, perhaps. I can't really say anything more at this time, other than... it's complicated.


Posted by: Mildly Presidential Bear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:00 PM
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Don't sleep with him if he promises you a permanent job. That's probably bad.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:01 PM
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The internet campaign to renew Veronica Mars hired skywriters, but that didn't really have any effect.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:03 PM
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Skywriters are overrated. I bet we could run a local tv news ad telling MPB to stay away from this dude.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:07 PM
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Do we have any reason to think that MPB watches the local news?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:09 PM
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Everybody wants to know the weather.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:10 PM
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A person can certainly become besotted with a charismatic person in advance of sex, especially if there's an obvious barrier to sex, like having a spouse. And, you know, you'd not really want to end things with the spouse unless you were really sure your new crush felt the same way. So there's a non-psychotic logic at work.

Utterly disqualifying, of course.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:11 PM
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Do we have any reason to think that MPB watches the local news?

Maybe the message can be encoded in the sound of crackling leaves.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:13 PM
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Speaking of fall, if it is already 60 degrees in the house and the low is supposed to be 32, I should probably turn on the heat about now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 8:23 PM
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This weak vid seems to be the only youtube of Kostas.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 9:09 PM
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Thorn, I am very attached to my theory that it is not possible for two adults to do the work of earning money, child care and house upkeep, and adults who feel bad or guilty about failing at them are blaming themselves for failing an impossible task. My usual conceptual solution is to introduce more grown-ups into the system. (Which is what hiring cleaners or buying pre-prepped food does.) Do you have any means for doing that?

Hire help? Get an adult family member into the household? Offer a room to someone who could help out around the house? When you can't do more, but more must be done, the answer is more workers.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 9:53 PM
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Polyamory ftw.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 10:01 PM
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Or extended family systems ftw.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 10:05 PM
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Or co-housing.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 10:06 PM
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Or slavery, apparently.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 10:06 PM
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I am currently on muscle relaxants and Vicodin. And yet, my sciatica continues to hurt me. I only mention this because parenting wasn't especially easy today. Still, I suspect that co-housing wouldn't help.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 10:17 PM
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When you can't do more, but more must be done, the answer is more workersunpaid overtime.

Or such was my impression.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 10:23 PM
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Sounds like someone's got a future in management.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 10:38 PM
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Halford, the thing you don't understand is that this is the Midwest. The people there have feelings that are simple. But true.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 7-12 11:03 PM
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|| It keeps weirding me out that various "Nazi" words are just normal words in German. Turns out "lebensraum" wasn't invented by the Nazis, it just means "habitat." My history textbooks have let me down. Why not translate that word?
|>


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 1:45 AM
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My argument against ID cards in the UK was that it was a sensible heuristic to reject any policy proposal which sounded ominous when translated into German. It was pointed out to me that this would include a) most policy proposals and b) most things.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 2:27 AM
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This works for non-threatening German words, too - Zeitgeist, gestalt, schadenfreude.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 2:35 AM
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319. We're back to the grandmother hypothesis of human longevity. What is it, three weeks?

329. It was pointed out to me that this would include a) most policy proposals and b) most things.

Most policy proposals should indeed be rejected, because they're proposed by people who couldn't spell feasibility study if you held a pistol to their heads.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 2:40 AM
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330: Aytoun describes an election campaign in which one candidate successfully uses random ecclesiastical words to appeal to a religiously devout but not very bright electorate: "Do you want to see a reredos set up in the public square? Do you want to see your daughters tempted into simony?"

schadenfreude.

"Taking pleasure from other people's pain? That is German!"
-- Avenue Q


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 2:58 AM
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Sorry, lyrics here:
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/avenueq/schadenfreude.htm


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 2:59 AM
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Megan, I've been buying more pre-prepped food and decided to take the money we were spending to have someone come clean twice a month to instead have counseling twice a month, which I think was worth it and won't last forever. One negative about fostering is that it can be hard for people in non-nuclear family situations to get certified. There's lots of room for grown kids to live in the home but I've only heard negative stories about communal living and think polyamory would be hard to navigate in the homestudy process. I'm sure there are places where that's less true, but not a ton since the last anti-commune story I heard was out of SF. (Here, it doesn't help anyone that the last big big murder of a child by foster parents was a poly situation, so I suspect there's a larger cultural bias than there would be anyway.)

I think most of this is a matter of adjusting to having two kids, which makes both more and less work, as well as to Lee's new non-working situation. We should be able to find ways for her to pick up more slack and me to get more downtime, but both require specific interventions and we have to work on them. She knows it was a frustrating weekend and has plans to improve. I am being honest about the ways I feel like I'm overbooked and can't add more chores without adjusting others, and I think that will help us get somewhere.

I wish we had regular free babysitting the way most of my coworkers seem to, but I'm not from a local extended family and I'm grateful that my parents will take the girls sometimes, particularly when we have fostering trainings to attend. I'm working on getting them new friends in the neighborhood and I guess trading playdates will be the next stage, but right now playdates are a timesink too. I've been spending 2-3 hours/week for the last three weeks with Mara's best friend who left her school for another one and his mom, and that means another block of time where I can't get anything done. I gave Nia a time-intensive hairstyle that should last until I'm ready to do whatever she'll have for Halloween and that will give me next weekend off on that front, which should help. It's all just a juggling act and I'm still figuring out how to make it all work and recognize that Lee is much slower at adjusting than I am.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 3:57 AM
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328: That bothered me too. I was trying to buy a ticket that allowed me to switch trains. It turned out it was called "Anschlussbillette". I don't want to annex the next train, just ride on it.

The worst was when I passed a security guard who yelled "Achtung!" I readied myself to be gunned down in a hail of bullets.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 4:11 AM
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On a trip to Berlin a security guard in a museum tried to inform me that the museum would be shutting in half an hour and I should hurry up if I wanted to see everything. Since her English was not great (but better than my German) she ended up pointing at her watch and saying "Macht schnell! Macht schnell!"

Made my day.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 4:25 AM
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It keeps weirding me out that various "Nazi" words are just normal words in German.

A travel guide is a tripführer!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 4:44 AM
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Similarly, why not translate "Reich" as "Empire", or indeed just "Germany"? Why not translate the RSHA as the Central Office of Imperial Security? It always struck me as a distancing device.

Mind you, "Heimatschutz" (literally "homeland security") really *is* a sinister term invented by Nazi propaganda to refer to terrifying amateur goon squads of self-identified Germans abroad slaughtering their neighbours.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 5:31 AM
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A travel guide is a tripführer!

What I find striking about that is the "trip" part. Which language borrowed that from the other?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 5:44 AM
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The Moscow Tripfuhrers never suggest enough heavy clothing for winter visits.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 5:50 AM
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338 -- Ins Saarland, Reich is used to refer to the rest of Germany. Or was, in the 1980s, by people of my in-laws generation. Haven't heard whether it's fallen out of usage since then.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 5:54 AM
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Oh sorry, I think I was confusing. The word is actually Reiseführer, literally leader or guide to a trip or journey. But to the German learner, it sounds like you're talking something about Hitler.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:02 AM
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The word is actually Reiseführer, literally leader or guide to a trip or journey.

Actually I find that even more creepy, since Sommerreise and Winterreise were, 500 years before Schubert, the terms used to refer to the annual campaigns by the Teutonic Knights where they used to go out with a bunch of Northern European aristocratic tourists and butcher a shed load of random Lithuanian peasants. I hadn't heard the word Reiseführer before, but I bet it meant the Grand Master or whoever was deputising for him on that year's event.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:16 AM
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343: That's the problem when you have a language with a vocabulary of 5 words.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:23 AM
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337: Ha! I once met a German working in advertising firm who complained to me about the difficulty of translating into German the new slogan of an American car company: Follow your Leader. (They decided it was best to keep it in English).


Posted by: Mme. Merle | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:33 AM
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Even at that 500 years before Schubert time, I'm guessing that in other circumstances it just meant "the person leading the trip."

Having learned German as an adult and having taught the language for years, I'm sympathetic to the violent associations it can seem to have at first. But continually defending against its perceived violence or creepiness gets kind of old.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:35 AM
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No German word is creepier than Dudler.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:38 AM
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I might have mentioned this here before, but an HR person from my former employer once informed me that it had been determined that I would receive a Sonderbehandlung.

But the best story of this sort comes from teraz.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:43 AM
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I would like to see the line "there must be a German word for [involved concept]" given a dignified retirement.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:49 AM
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I think Sonderbehandlung is the German word for dignified retirement.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:50 AM
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Blume:

A client once told me that there was a German word that meant "life-phase partner."

True? What is it?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:50 AM
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351: Lebensabschnittsgefährte. It's really a tongue-in-cheek coinage, playing on Lebensgefährte.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:53 AM
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I simultaneously completely agree with 349 and love the word will is talking about: Lebensgefährte / Lebensgefährtin. The word doesn't actually do much more work than "partner," but it does have a nice ring.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:53 AM
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352: Oh hah, I hadn't actually heard that word.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:54 AM
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Seems like something you'd be more likely to use post-relationship?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 6:56 AM
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||

Since when do stores check ID for people buying cough medicine? Between that and the interrogation I got last time I bought Sudafed, it feels like having a cold is criminalized.

|>


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:06 AM
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Did you get the good kind with codeine? Is that still for sale?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:10 AM
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If you're shocked by that, you clearly haven't yet tried to buy spray paint in this lovely state of ours.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:12 AM
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I got the kind with dextromethorphan, which I guess is the good kind if you want to hallucinate.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:15 AM
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[quote]Since when do stores check ID for people buying cough medicine? Between that and the interrogation I got last time I bought Sudafed, it feels like having a cold is criminalized.
[/quote]

Is it cough medicine you can make meth with?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:16 AM
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358: I have not! Huh.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:16 AM
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Wait. Are we talking spray paint or cough meds now? Don't huff spray paint to hallucinate. That really hurts your brain.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:16 AM
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The cashier at CVS didn't really look at my ID. But still: teenagers with colds need fake ID now if they want to buy their own cough medicine?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:19 AM
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I had a co-worker who once personally appealed to a paint store owner to stop selling paint thinner to some teenaged huffer. It worked for at least a while.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:24 AM
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The cashier at CVS didn't really look at my ID. But still: teenagers with colds need fake ID now if they want to buy their own cough medicine?

I thought the way it worked wasn't that you had to be above a certain age, but that the same ID couldn't purchase more than a cert ain amount of cough medicine in a certain range of time.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:27 AM
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No, I was at one of the little self-check-out things, and as soon as I scanned the cough medicine it displayed a screen saying "ID CHECK" and the receipt-printer spit out a little piece of paper saying that only those 18 and over can purchase cough medicine along with some kind of slogan about preventing teen cough medicine abuse.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:30 AM
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Sudafed you have to present ID because it can be used to make meth. DXM (I guess) you have to use ID because it can be used to make you trip your fucking face off (not, unfortunately, in a particularly fun way, but anyhow).


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:32 AM
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I mean, yeah, I knew those things. But surely one could go through CVS and identify any number of products that could be used by teenagers in ways that are unconventional and socially frowned-upon?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:37 AM
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Making and or being recreational drugs is a special way of being frowned upon.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:39 AM
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I blame Halford.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:41 AM
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368: not on the level of DXM, I don't think. Or, at least, not that anybody's told me. I guess the closest is alcoholic mouthwash?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:47 AM
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Kids try to get all loopy on the benadryl but that's a truly, truly half-assed high.

Does CVS sell nutmeg?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:48 AM
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Or, oh, I guess they probably sell Glade or other inhalant-y things.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:49 AM
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Meth is probably safer than inhalants.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 7:52 AM
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Is that really that gender-normed a statement? I'd think that a pre-sex declaration of love (among American adults -- say, over 21) in this or a recent decade would be at least unusual from a woman as well as from a man.

I was probably being too clever. My sense (possibly incorrect) is that there's more room for women to tell somebody that they love them in way which is marked as non-sexual. I think for men there's a presumption that telling a peer that you love them implies sexual overtones.

I'd agree that a declaration of sexual love, pre-sex would be odd from either gender.

DXM (I guess) you have to use ID because it can be used to make you trip your fucking face off (not, unfortunately, in a particularly fun way, but anyhow).

I had friends who were doing that for a while. They seemed to find it interesting.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:08 AM
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Even if you're desperate and at CVS, don't try to butt-chug rubbing alcohol. It's a bad idea to be opened to that propanol.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:16 AM
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Strong work.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:20 AM
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FWIW, I meant my rule to apply to both genders.

Is slizzard the same thing as purple dank? Are both made with Robotussin DM?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:27 AM
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I mean I could look it up, but I figured someone would be proud to share their knowledge.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:28 AM
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I thought it was 'drank' rather than 'dank'. I suppose Googling would help.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:30 AM
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Or maybe slizzard is an adjective? Sizzurp the noun? Join me while I a priori recreate an odd drug trend from two years ago in my mind.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:33 AM
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375: That's extraordinarily insightful. I love you, man!


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:33 AM
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This digression reminds me: some kid over here was hospitalised after drinking a cocktail containing liquid nitrogen. Is this a thing? Nitrogen liquifies at about -195°C. WTF? I mean I know the wannabe El Bulli type chefs use it, but surely they put the finished product in the freezer to warm up before they serve it. Also, why isn't she dead?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:34 AM
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Maybe he wasn't able to swallow the drink before it boiled and thus he only got the cold indirectly.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:45 AM
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If the rest of the cocktail was liquid enough to drink, it couldn't have been that cold -- above whatever the freezing point of that mixture of alcohol and water was.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:47 AM
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383: Parts of her are dead. IIRC they removed her stomach.

The take-home lesson this and the butt-chugging incident is don't do stupid things.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:49 AM
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Expansion?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:50 AM
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Apparently liquid nitrogen is a a thing nowadays.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:55 AM
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386. Well, that'll help her keep her figure then.

The take-home lesson this and the butt-chugging incident is don't do stupid things be 18.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 8:57 AM
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Maybe it's just my aging work browser, but the link in 388 caused it to go haywire.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 9:07 AM
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390. It's gawker. Live with it.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 9:09 AM
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Is slizzard the same thing as purple dank? Are both made with Robotussin DM?

Purple Drank is codeine plus promethazine, the latter being both a terrific anti-nausea drug (A+++; would be nauseated again) and also a codeine enhancer. So I think there's no overlap with Robitussin, unless there's still some prescription version with codeine. The last comment on the thread essear linked to in 370 is pretty funny.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 12:03 PM
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I'd agree that a declaration of sexual love, pre-sex would be odd from either gender.

This is what mixtapes do, innit? Also, in my HIV-cautious early adulthood, we had to express sexual very damn strong attraction for it to be worth the safe sex hassle. How are you defining 'sexual love'? (Am amused at the thought that you aren't really involved until after you've tried the other party out.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 12:35 PM
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How are you defining 'sexual love'?

In the context of this thread I was using that as shorthand for saying, "I love you" when you mean, "I love you and want to have sex with you."

This is what mixtapes do, innit?

Hmmm, so you're saying that the mix CDs that I sent to one of the unfogged meetups might have been misinterpreted . . . ?


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 8-12 4:00 PM
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