Re: Have at it.

1

Frist!

Wait, he's not running. Never mind.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 5:54 PM
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Ugh, I somehow thought it started at 8:30, so I've had CNN on since then. Fucking start already.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 5:59 PM
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You guys better be on your fucking game tonight.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:01 PM
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Disaster!


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:02 PM
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Aye aye, stormcaptain.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:03 PM
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I hate this fucking shit. Just let me live in a sane country for the last few decades of my life.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:05 PM
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I know what it takes to create jobs- but it's a secret!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:05 PM
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Entitlements! Romney lurvs them!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:06 PM
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Apparently Romney is all about teh Pell grants.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:06 PM
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6: What do I have to give up in return? Orgasms? Racquetball? Watching the World Cup? I'm ready to bargain.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:07 PM
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R-money is blathering


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:07 PM
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The top quarter of Massachusetts students go to college for free. I bet that was mittens' idea.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:08 PM
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It's just going to be a river of bullshit, isn't it?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:08 PM
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I was going to watch but then I found out the questions were drawn from a random poll of Nassau County residents. Fuck that shit.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:09 PM
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10: your grip on reality.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:09 PM
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I'm watching by digital antenna and it keeps cutting out, Rmoney sounds like Ron Headrest.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:09 PM
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14: No, it's cool. Every question is about what the Mets need to do in the off season.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:09 PM
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7: I dunno, I am sure it involves tax cuts.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:09 PM
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"What Governor Romney said just isn't true."


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:10 PM
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Romney wanted to save Detroit now. LIES LIES.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:10 PM
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I cannot handle another debate. Watching social media this week.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:11 PM
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He didn't want to keep them open, he wanted to liquidate them and fire everyone- just like he did to many other companies.
See, I could do this debate thing.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:11 PM
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||

Bruce Wilder and William Timberman are on a roll in this CT Thread

Timberman thereat says it is all there at the end of Hobsbawm's V1 and beginning of V2. Which happens to be my very current reading (along with Friedrich List and Japanese domestic courts) as of like 5 minutes ago.

Just mentioning possible better uses of time.

What's the score?

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:11 PM
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Did they intentionally go for the stereotypical accent?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:12 PM
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18 to 17.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:12 PM
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19 is what I want to hear more of


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:12 PM
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Everyone drink if Romney says solyndra


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:14 PM
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26: Although he didn't have a rebuttal coming after that, Romney jumped in over the moderator to get in his "Nuh uh!"


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:14 PM
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24: That last dude was a perfect Nassau Co. amalgam: an Italian with Jon Stewart's "elderly Jew" voice.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:15 PM
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Ok, Obama is doing fine. He seems better prepared, more aggressive, and the format suits him.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:15 PM
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Mr. Oil sounds like he could be hot, but I wouldn't want to date Mr. Gas.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:16 PM
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I'm watching/listening to this* on loop rather than the debate.

Ginger, MaryAnn and Mrs. Thurston Howell dancing to The Castaways "Liar, Liar".


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:16 PM
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29: Bitching about gas prices, no less.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:16 PM
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||

Jill Stein arrested outside debate. But if y'all are watching tv I suppose you know that. I suppose, but I don't watch tv.

A police record should be a necessary qualification for the Presidency

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:17 PM
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"Very little of what Governor Romney just said is true."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:17 PM
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I am drunk and walking home. (Mmmm grappa.) Missing all the fun?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:18 PM
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Fight! Fight!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:19 PM
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Punch him in the face!


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:20 PM
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In the throat, togo. THE MOTHERFUCKING THROAT.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:20 PM
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This is ridiculous, why aren't there backstage fact-checkers? Are we just going to watch them call each other liars for the entire debate?


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:21 PM
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Obama is not doing well at this head to head. He's getting overwhelmed a bit.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:21 PM
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Huh. This is more contentious than I expected. Yay. If Obama's strategy was to get Rmoney to behave like a whiny-ass prick, it's working.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:21 PM
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Give him a Kenyan Knuckle sandwich.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:22 PM
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Okay, good line. Romney will bring back lowering prices by collapsing the economy.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:22 PM
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In the balls!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:22 PM
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41: Huh. Disagree. But Romney could read the phonebook and seem like a smirking douchebag to me, so.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:22 PM
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"Is it the job of the Energy Department to lower gas prices?"

No.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:22 PM
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34: We missed a real opportunity when Jim Jeffords retired.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:22 PM
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SHUT HIM UP.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:23 PM
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40 - We live in a world in which the perfectly true claim that Paul Ryan seeks to dismantle Medicare was judged the Lie of the Year by multiple independent fact checkers.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:24 PM
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I want Obama to point out that the Keystone XL pipeline isn't about oil for America, it's about exporting Canadian oil to the rest of the world.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:24 PM
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I think Romney is coming off like a douchey ass.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:25 PM
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I mean, to the average person.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:25 PM
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Jammies keep shouting about 51.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:26 PM
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The Graun is doing a live blog too.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:26 PM
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Heebie heebie, you are not average average.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:26 PM
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SHUT HIM UP.

Tase him, tase him!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:27 PM
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Taxes for no one, ponies for everyone!


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:27 PM
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I think Romney is coming off like a douchey ass.

I think he's doing pretty well. Lying his ass off, mind you, but effectively.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:27 PM
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59: I CAN'T HERE YOU!

Liar, liar, pants on fire
Your nose is longer than a telephone wire


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:29 PM
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I had to look up the spelling of "rassle." I thought it was "rassel," but maybe that's something in German.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:29 PM
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I'm done being relieved over Obama's performance. I'm now getting annoyed that the entire debate is about who can be the better Republican.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:29 PM
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"HEAR" EVEN


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:29 PM
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i>I think he's doing pretty well. Lying his ass off, mind you, but effectively.

And managing to get the last word every time.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:29 PM
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Which site airs the real time thumbs up/down again?


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:30 PM
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Chris Bowers: "Romney is going to completely rearrange the way rich people pay taxes in order to make sure rich people pay the exact same amount of taxes."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:30 PM
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59: agreed. This was the candidate that I feared all along: slick, good looking, self-assured, seemingly knowledgeable, and totally willing to abase himself to gain power.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:31 PM
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YOU DON 'T PAY 60% IN TAXES!! Call him out on that


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:31 PM
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Mitch Hoffmann: "So far this has been a very strong first debate for the President."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:32 PM
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Also, I think Obama is doing better than last time but not especially well. He really needs to find a way to politely scold Romney for getting in the last word every time. I'm not sure how he can do that.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:32 PM
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67, 70: Shut up. Up your game, history boy.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:34 PM
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68: Yeah, that was definitely phrased that way on purpose.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:34 PM
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Big Bird / Planned Parenthood slam!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:34 PM
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Big Bird!


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:35 PM
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For a moment I forgot the moderator's name, and I thought he was offering 'candy' as one of the two things at stake.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:35 PM
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71: sorry, I'm a Jew. We wander and worry.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:35 PM
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Fifth repeat of The Castaways here.

"Make a little effort, try to be true
I'll be happy, not so blue"


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:36 PM
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I have more candy corn. Hooray. Thanks for the reminder.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:36 PM
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Once again, Romney becomes hesitant and unsure of himself when on defense.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:37 PM
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I wonder if we worry because we wander. Probably, right?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:37 PM
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That generation didn't complain. All you kids are a bunch of whiners, though.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:38 PM
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Arrgh, I heard some of the debate through the door!

"I'm melting! Melting! Oh, what a world! What a world! Who would have thought two men talking could destroy my beautiful obliviousness?"


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:39 PM
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81: Also part of that generation: Gloria Steinem, notable complainer.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:40 PM
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They complained about manna -- free food! That's some complaining.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:40 PM
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Oh, I was thinking about the original wandering generation.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:40 PM
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Romney has "binders full of women."


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:40 PM
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BRING ME YOUR WIMMEN.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:41 PM
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I'm listening to WFMU instead of the debate. Besides the Nassau County origin of the questions, the liquor store around the corner was out of rye.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:41 PM
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Romney likes to bind women- pass it on!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:41 PM
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In the new economy Romney's going to bring, employers will be anxious to hire women!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:42 PM
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Women have barely lost any jobs, I'm pretty sure.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:42 PM
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86 ?!


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:42 PM
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86: Creepshots.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:42 PM
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BINDERS FULL OF WOMEN


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:43 PM
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93: You're going to get Romney fired, you monster!


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:43 PM
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Romney is violentacrez?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:44 PM
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I'm doing some terribly boring reading instead of watching the debate. We have rye, but I haven't yet been driven to crack it open.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:44 PM
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Blinders for women? Just make the men veil themselves.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:44 PM
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95: Just like a Mormon, pwn me on my own comment.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:44 PM
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BINDERS FULL OF WOMEN

This is like Scott Brown's house full of women.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:45 PM
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I'm supposed to be revising part of a brief, but the internet is so festive this evening.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:45 PM
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I'm having a Manhattan made with cherry bitters. Thumbs up!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:45 PM
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I guess I missed more than half the debate because of a long dinner. Opinion: Cra/igie on Ma/in is not really good enough to justify the cost. But hey, if I'm not paying...


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:46 PM
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Hey, Stormy, Obama's kind of kicking ass now. I mean, Romney doesn't have much to say that isn't a lie. It's kind of funny.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:46 PM
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My God, it's full of women!


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:46 PM
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As I think about it, I suspect that Obama's strategy is to call a spade a spade, opening up the opportunity to call Romney a liar from now till election day. Given the campaign Romney is running, I hope I'm right.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:47 PM
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97, 102 - But made with Buffalo Trace instead of rye, because we're out. Maybe one of the Nassauns will ask about the the terrible under distribution of Bulleit Rye.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:47 PM
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Romney is claiming to be a small businessperson?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:47 PM
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I AM MITROMNULAX! BINDER OF WOMEN!


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:48 PM
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I am not George Bush, I totes swear


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:48 PM
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Why not! He's totally for contraceptive care, too.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:48 PM
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Apparently Bain Capital is a small business,.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:48 PM
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The matter of til versus till is more troubling* to me than why Jews worry.

* And more interesting.**

** Bad Jew and bad historian!


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:49 PM
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Bureaucrats in Washington shouldn't decide whether women get affordable access to contraception!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:49 PM
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104: Good. That's why I married Jewish, you guys come through when the chips are down.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:49 PM
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I guess the liquor store might have had fancy rye, but they were out of Old Overholt, both sizes. I hope the mob-looking distributor guys who go in there all sinisterly are still going to let them carry OO.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:49 PM
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Contraceptives for all! Sex for the wealthy!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:50 PM
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"Binders Full of Women" - Lil Wayne feat. 2 Chainz


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:50 PM
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Frank Conniff: "Mitt: These are different times than the Bush years These are the years that were fucked up by the Bush years."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:50 PM
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I ... I'm looking forward to the post-debate chatter on the news. What's become of me?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:51 PM
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"Governor, you're the last person who's gonna get tough on China."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:51 PM
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Stormy (it's just you and me, babe), Obama is really kicking Romney in the teeth on women's issues. Romney has nothing but lies, and he looks pretty weird issuing them. Obama, meanwhile, has the ACA, and he's saying so. Things look much worse for the Mittster than they did fifteen minutes ago. I expect the gender gap to reopen* in the next few days.

* Collectors of low-hanging fruit, just don't.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:52 PM
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Medicare Voucher! Say it over and over!


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:52 PM
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Family members report last bit was great--Obama on areas where Dickweed is worst than Bush.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:52 PM
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Sure, make the black guy ask the dumbest question.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:52 PM
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103: agreed, although the tasting menu is something to experience once.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:53 PM
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Anyone else having trouble loading Unfogged on chrome?


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:53 PM
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Man, I really hope as many people watch this debate as watched the last one.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:53 PM
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Obama smacked the question about his record out of the park.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:53 PM
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127: It's working for me.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:54 PM
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131

Which station airs the live thumbs up/thumbs down live poll?


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:55 PM
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The matter of til versus till

Till the land, Till Eulenspiegel, 'til the cows come home.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:55 PM
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You people suck; why aren't you telling who you are going to vote for and why? Isn't this a politics blog?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:56 PM
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134

LB already told you! In a front page post!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:56 PM
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LIiIIIIIIIIIES!!!


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:57 PM
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132: right, but till is now acceptable. And unless you use the apostrophe, which is twee, I think til looks wrong. Which is to say, it's not that simple!


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:57 PM
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Paul Krugman is going to cut off Romney's balls for that Reagan analogy.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:57 PM
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138

Romney answer on how the economy's been crap last four years was strong


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:58 PM
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Til, till

Unto, I say, unto.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:58 PM
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Stormy, Obama has really killed for the last fifteen minutes. Mitt still looks polished and handsome, though, so it's not the rout it should be on the merits.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:58 PM
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Andy Borowitz: "So far, fact-checkers have caught Romney telling three truths."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:58 PM
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142

CNN does the metering, I think


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:59 PM
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143

Oops, I spoke too soon. They've pivoted to the economy, and Mitt is on firmer ground again.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:59 PM
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144

140: Fine, then let's call it a debate and go get drunk.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 6:59 PM
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140: And I'm not really believing you--because I suck at being neurotic.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:00 PM
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142: thanks!


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:00 PM
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147

Romney wants to give green cards with degrees? That... would be a crazy huge change. Where'd he come up with that? It actually sounds good to me, given all the horrendous visa issues all my friends and colleagues who aren't US citizens have to deal with.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:00 PM
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148

Wow they're having trouble with a rather lovely first name.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:01 PM
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149

137: How many divisions has Krugman?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:01 PM
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150

Lorraine- like in Back to the Future!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:02 PM
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151

"Don't tell me different, know it's a lie
Come kill me, honey, see how I cry"

Another spin of The Castaways with Mary Ann and Ginger to calm down.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:02 PM
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149- How many balls has Romney?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:02 PM
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Personally, I think Romney is doing pretty well (at least through the eyes of a low-information voter who doesn't know he's lying through his teeth). My hope is that the press will be keen enough to see a change of the storyline that they'll call Obama the winner.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:02 PM
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143: It was such a weird pivot for Romney, though, and not consonant with anything else he's said. "The president is a good man! He so wants to do well! He really wishes all good things and has such a good heart! But alas he just hasn't been able to deliver and we are all sad! Since he is such a good man!"


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:03 PM
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155

Did the dickwad just say "Democrat House"?

Seriously, my fellow Americans, don;t vote for this guy. Please.

Preaching to the choir?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:04 PM
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147: My preferred policy is automatic citizenship for degree plus five years work. Only exception for felons. Let's steal other countries top talent.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:05 PM
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What did he just say? Let illegal immigrants make their own decision whether to stay? WTF is that?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:05 PM
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Lorraine looks pissed.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:06 PM
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I have been doing Weight Watchers for five weeks and lost a chunk of weight. Having changed my diet and observed the effects, it seems the liquor is the main thing that makes me put on pounds, so I've been really quite good about not drinking much at all. It has been a very long first hour of the debate. I would like a binder full of gin long about now.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:06 PM
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Romney just used 'illegals' as a noun.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:06 PM
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Had to turn off the sound. I can't take it any more. LIIIIIEEEESSSS, nothing but LIIIIIIEEEESSSS! Someone tell me how it ends.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:06 PM
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Fight fight


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:06 PM
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156: My preferred policy is to invade the Caymans, the Bahamas and Switzerland and get our money back.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:06 PM
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Fight fight


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:06 PM
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That was pretty funny.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:06 PM
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Obama is getting pissed off, which is good, I think - he's pausing less and getting more animated.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:08 PM
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Lorraine looks pissed.

That they mangled her name?


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:08 PM
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Oh, shit, the Libya question.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:09 PM
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Oops, Obama assumed that Kerry was a woman and was looking around for the questioner when the guy was right in front of him.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:09 PM
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I had a weird job in Mineola for a few months when I was 25. That is one depressing place.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:09 PM
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Fuck, I turn the sound back on, and we get a question about Libya? Someone make it stop!!!


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:10 PM
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If that guy is talking to his buddies about that, there's no fucking way he's "undecided."


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:10 PM
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"Mr. Obama, I was watching the third hour of Fox and Friends yesterday..."


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:11 PM
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Snap poll results in my head: Mary Ann over Ginger, easily.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:11 PM
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I am attending a Mountain Goats show rather than watching the debate. I think that was the right decision.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:11 PM
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172 is right.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:11 PM
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Romney just used 'illegals' as a noun.

That's what they say in Nassau County.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:11 PM
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How many Latinos are there in the studio audience?


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:12 PM
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Obama really is doing 180 degrees better than last time.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:12 PM
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How many radians?


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:12 PM
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http://bindersfullofwomen.tumblr.com/

Internet FTW.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:13 PM
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"The president said he would put daylight between us and Israel" -- that's supposed to be, unambiguously, a criticism?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:14 PM
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Dimensionlessly many.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:14 PM
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Yeah "undecided." Mitt's foreign policy idiocy is terrifying. Apology tour? Didnt happen. Now How about a pratfall tour you had this Summer, Mitt?


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:14 PM
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Personally, I think Romney is doing pretty well
Well, you did allude that he's adept at conning consultant types.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:15 PM
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Righteous anger on Obama's part.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:16 PM
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181 is not quite in keeping with all Internet traditions.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:16 PM
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Holy shit, a moderator had a fact on hand! She's an embarrassment to the profession!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:16 PM
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Nice catch, moderator.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:17 PM
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I just tuned it, but it looks like Obama is kicking ass on the Libya thing.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:17 PM
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188, 89: And then immediately added something else to say Romney was "right about that." Bah!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:19 PM
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The gun control question is a lame one.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:20 PM
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Obama ought to explain why he killed the Arms Trade Treaty.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:20 PM
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Is Unfogged just running super slowly? I'm switching back and forth between devices and they're all hung up.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:21 PM
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Binders-Full-Of-Women/474385452583505 already as 14K likes


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:21 PM
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Obama was on form on Libya.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:21 PM
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This is why the political media must die. Imagine a Dem trying to make hay about something like the Benghazi attack. Reagan the Magnificent Asswipe had the Beirut embassy blown up twice with many American deaths and still left the Marines sitting there with their thumbs up their asses.

#IThinkThat'stheRightTimeline


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:21 PM
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How did we get from AK-47s to babies havin' babies?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:21 PM
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Romney thinks he's playing Shocase Showdown. Just taking the Democratic Position - 1 position.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:22 PM
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Romney claims that automatic weapons are already illegal. Quick google search seems to disagree? I don't know anything about gun laws.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:22 PM
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If you marry someone you might get a bulletproof vest as a wedding present! Seriously, did he just say "Before people have babies they should think about marrying someone?" Has he never heard of Dan Quayle?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:22 PM
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Fast and furious? Really does anyone think the pres micromanages random ATF departments.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:22 PM
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196: Good, because fucking fuckheads being fuckheads on that one.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:22 PM
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Yay moderator again! Call him out on the assault weapons dodge.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:23 PM
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Great pedantry from Romney on the difference between automatic and semiautomatic weapons. Of course, everyone who understood the difference was already voting for Romney.

Crowley showing some skirt.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:23 PM
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197: But they didn't get the ambassador just some of the lowlings, so no harm, no foul.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:23 PM
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Obama caning on the worm atm


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:24 PM
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I'm glad we're addressing the problems of everyday Americans.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:25 PM
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Candy Crowley has been great.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:25 PM
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Romney claims that automatic weapons are already illegal. Quick google search seems to disagree? I don't know anything about gun laws.

"Mostly true", in fact-checker land.

Obama missed the chance to say "George W. Bush started 'Fast & Furious', I stopped it."


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:25 PM
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195. That binders page is so on target I think it is by pros.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:26 PM
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Outsourcing question this is going to be great.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:27 PM
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207: what?


Posted by: Turgid JacobIan | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:27 PM
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WTF is "Trickle Down Government?"


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:27 PM
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Please Obama hit for the groin!


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:27 PM
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Obama must have practiced his skeptically bemused look in front of the mirror.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:28 PM
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Hard to tell who is spending more time on the other guy's turf: Obama wants nothing more than to cut taxes, and Romney loves entitlements and protectionism.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:29 PM
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Automatic weapons are legal but regulated in the U.S.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:29 PM
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214 to 215?


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:29 PM
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216: No lie, he must have. Because that awful "look down and scribble" thing last time was the worst.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:29 PM
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Are they fucking through yet? I'm exhausted.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:29 PM
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Romneys answer end currency manipulatiOn, and raise tariffs on foreign goods? And... Lower taxes and make it harder for people to get healthcare? Not following you mitt


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:29 PM
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213 the weird CNN immediate tracking poll

Maybe he isn't consistently, I haven't been paying too much attention, just saw him shoot up really quickly for a while


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:30 PM
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209: agreed. She's been good. My wandering Jew worries were unfounded.


Posted by: von wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:30 PM
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213 the weird CNN immediate tracking poll

Maybe he isn't consistently, I haven't been paying too much attention, just saw him shoot up really quickly for a while


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:30 PM
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Obama: Tax reform?


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:31 PM
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224: So, Mr. Wafer, speaking as a tenured professor of history, what was your impression of tonight's debate?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:32 PM
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Wait, they're still talking?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:32 PM
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We can compete if the playing field is level, so I support also paying Americans $3 a day!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:32 PM
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Locavore iPads.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:33 PM
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Actually mr. President I'd be perfecty happy with high-wage low-skill jobs.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:34 PM
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saw him shoot up really quickly

There goes the anti-drug vote...


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:34 PM
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I guess Romney thinks if he chants "government does not create jobs" enough times it will become true.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:34 PM
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230: Like.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:34 PM
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Shit question old guy. Maybe mitt will admit to being a colon though.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:35 PM
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Cylon, but auto-correct was funnier.


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:36 PM
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I got all my kids insured- all five of them!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:36 PM
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Hmm Romney is clearly trolling for the Halford vote with that intellectual property in China pitch. NO DICE MOTHERFUCKER.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:36 PM
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And I believe we are all children of the same god

Sdfsvdafbdsgfng

Romney's pitch for himself is pretty awful.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:36 PM
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If I play "Liar, Liar" one more time ill it be over?

Science!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:36 PM
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He really needs to find a way to politely scold Romney for getting in the last word every time. I'm not sure how he can do that.
A little delayed, but this is really the responsibility of the moderator. It is impossible for Obama to call him out without sounding peevish. Peeving is the moderator's job.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:37 PM
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Did not like the chanting much, I did not.

I really really hate these "how are you different?" questions. Just an opportunity to bullshit. They already have those opportunities.



Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:37 PM
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233 Obama seems convinced


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:37 PM
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241 was me.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:37 PM
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And bringing it up. Good.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:38 PM
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Finally with the 47 percent. And it's over. Ha.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:39 PM
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Micelles dress is nice


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:39 PM
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Umm we know I'm biased, but that end looked like Obama literally wiped the floor with Romney.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:40 PM
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Draw. Fluent liars are just too hard to pin down.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:40 PM
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Obama's the winner, now let's have the press tell us what we'll think tomorrow!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:40 PM
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"The most rancorous Presidential debate ever," says CBS.

Also: "The President certainly accomplished what he failed to accomplish in the first debate."


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:41 PM
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Ann has not yet mastered the art of keeping a look of distaste off her face.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:42 PM
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An Obama advisor on ABC says Obama won, but a Romney advisor says Romney did the job! Donna Brazile, who won? Obama, of course. George Will? Haha, Will's mic wasn't working so I guess Obama really won!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:42 PM
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Nice pulling of the Costanza move -- go out with your best line and leave the room.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:43 PM
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252: And how! Eep.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:44 PM
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Ann has not yet mastered the art of keeping a look of distaste off her face.

She was raised Episcopalian; only converted to marry Mitt.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:44 PM
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And in other good news, the Yankees are losing.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:44 PM
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254: If you're referring to the 47% line, I still think that's better at the beginning. Frame him as saying one thing to his private donors, something else when he knows we're watching.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:44 PM
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Tiger Beat Down.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:45 PM
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258: That's what I've been waiting for: "Which Romney will show up to govern? I'm guessing the one talking to the rich donors."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:46 PM
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Tom Brokaw just called Romney "one of the original big business creators in America".


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:46 PM
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256 made me laugh.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:47 PM
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261: So weird. Dude was a speculator basically. Bizarre.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:47 PM
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Tom Brokaw keeled over the shark a long time ago. He's really turned into an awful, awful old man.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:47 PM
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The "Obama comeback" storyline animates the post-debate spin. Good.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:47 PM
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256 is awesome.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:48 PM
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261: Christ, what an asshole.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:48 PM
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Hey look at that. 2-0. Nice use of the White Stripes on the sound system at Comerica. God bless Detroit.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:48 PM
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I hate undecided voters so very much.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:50 PM
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OK, shitfuck. You folks done pretty good. Go out and pound a few Budweisers. </BallFour>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:51 PM
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256 FTW


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:52 PM
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The OG of the 'we're doomed, it's over, we're all gonna die' school of Debate 1 analysis is ecstatic. Apparently Obama 'dominated' Romney in 'every single way'. He's now a 'lethal, but restrained predator'. Romney on the other hand was 'schvitzy'


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:53 PM
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Holy fucking shit, a "fact checker" said 50/50 on Benghazi terror exchange- Obama said "act of terror" in the rose garden but didn't use the word "terrorism" until two weeks later so both were right. Fucking shoot me now, as long as you call it "terrorism" and not an "act of terror."


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:53 PM
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Now there's an ad on TV telling me that Elizabeth Warren refuses to talk about jobs and the economy. The fuck?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:54 PM
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Yes, 256 for the win.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:54 PM
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I got an ad telling me that Scott Brown is pro-choice and favors equal pay for women, and he'd better be because he lives with 3 women. Would someone please point out the difference between private acts and public policy?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:55 PM
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214: Catch-phrase first used, as far as I know, by Romney in the first debate, and at least 10 times since then.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:56 PM
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276, next you'll be telling us rich people should be taxed by the revenuers IN ADDITION TO their own self-taxation.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:56 PM
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50 to 273.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:56 PM
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Yeah, if you think taxes should be higher, why don't you just pay more and everything will be fixed!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:57 PM
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Ooh, now John Tierney defending his corrupt in-laws (or rather, dissociating himself from them)


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:58 PM
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I'm pretty confident that Brown is pro-choice for his kids and if they need some cash for an abortion in Montreal or London he'll pony up.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 7:58 PM
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I need a cigarette.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:02 PM
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Ok, I get that "trickle down government" is a catch phrase, but what does it even mean? "Trickle down economics" is a concept that I understand (and is still a major component of Republican policy, is it not?) But I have no idea what "trickle down government" is supposed to be, or how it would distinguish itself from government that is not trickle down.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:09 PM
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Shjtfuck. Leyland, pull Verlander now.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:16 PM
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Trickle down economics- give all the money to rich people, some of it will trickle down to the rest of the non-rich people
Trickle down government- give all the money to the government, some of it will trickle down to the rest of the non-government people.
Please point out 10 ways in which this is stupid, aside from being an analogy.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:17 PM
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284: It's a cleverness the Republicans introduced sometime in the last month or so -- turn the enemy's complaint against you (trickle-down economics) against them! In this case, explain that government doesn't create jobs by arguing against trickle-down government. Just an extension of the general anti-government schtick.

It actually is pretty clever. Assholes.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:17 PM
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285: I know....too many pitches.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:19 PM
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Is it supposed to mean anything? Isn't it one of those phrases crafted to attach Democrats on Republican weaknesses? Asking what it means is probably a category error. I say probably because I'm not entirely sure what a category error is.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:19 PM
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Anyway, parsimon is correct, except about it being clever. There's nothing clever about it. It's sort of manufactured anti-cleverness.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:22 PM
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One more out. Don't fuck this up.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:25 PM
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now let's have the press tell us what we'll think tomorrow!

You really have to listen to the callers on the CSPAN live call-in show. That's where they have 3 separate phone numbers for the Republican line, the Democratic line, and the Independent line. Always listen to those callers for the first while right after one of these debates: they're unfiltered by post-debate spin.

They're also awesome sometimes for how out there they are.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:25 PM
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A childhood friend who never shares political stuff on FB just shared one of the "binder full of women" things.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:26 PM
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Could we really hope for the forces of evil to be vanquished twice tonight?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:27 PM
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This 9th inning needs to be over.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:28 PM
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Aggh. Crappy fielding is crappy.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:28 PM
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Hey, Ibanez is due up next.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:29 PM
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Shitfuck!


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:31 PM
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284
Ok, I get that "trickle down government" is a catch phrase, but what does it even mean? "Trickle down economics" is a concept that I understand (and is still a major component of Republican policy, is it not?) But I have no idea what "trickle down government" is supposed to be, or how it would distinguish itself from government that is not trickle down.

It's government that gets its regulations and inspectors into every facet of life, leaking and dripping into places that you thought were safe, government staining and tainting every private aspect of yourself, like getting into women's oh man even I can't make that make sense for Romney.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:31 PM
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Shitdick buttfarts.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:31 PM
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Honestly, Ibanez sucks against lefties so its highly unlikely he'll do anything. The BAL winning hit was a fluke.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:31 PM
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301 - But inevitable, given Pratchett's Law of Narrative. The Orioles haven't lost a game after leading in the eighth all season, ehhhhh?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:35 PM
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CNN says Obama won, 46-39.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:35 PM
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K!


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:36 PM
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305

SLIDER BOOM


Posted by: Robert Hford | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:36 PM
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FUCKING AWESOME


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:37 PM
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301: Yeah, they'd also won 16 straight extra-inning games.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:38 PM
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When we came into the clubhouse, all of us yelling and screaming Like a bunch of high-school kids, Joe Schultz said, "Stomp on em. That- away to stomp on 'em. Kick 'em when they're down. Shitfuck. Stomp them. Stomp them good."

Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:39 PM
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Baseball needs color commentators who correct for multiple comparisons.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:40 PM
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http://bindersfullofwomen.tumblr.com/image/33750544241


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:41 PM
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303: Fuck CNN and they're fucking polls; they aren't the boss of anyone. Fuckwad dickheads. Don't care if they say my guy won. They must be killed if we are to live. Them and Jake Tapper. And Mark Helperin.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:41 PM
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I love you a lot, Stormy. Kisses!


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:43 PM
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308: Topical Ball Four.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:43 PM
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CBS scores it 37-30 Obama.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:44 PM
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The polls are the least bullshit part of post debate coverage.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:44 PM
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Of course, that doesn't mean that the polls aren`t bullshit.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:46 PM
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307 - Don't remind me. This is the first time the Orioles have been decent since I was in college, but there's going to be a wicked reversion to the mean.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:48 PM
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Ezra Klein's tie was improperly tied. I've never been more outraged. Wait, now Chuck Todd is on my TV. I am more outraged. Chuck Todd is human garbage.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:49 PM
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273: Holy fucking shit, a "fact checker" said 50/50 on Benghazi terror exchange- Obama said "act of terror" in the rose garden but didn't use the word "terrorism" until two weeks later so both were right. Fucking shoot me now, as long as you call it "terrorism" and not an "act of terror."

Yeah, another "fact checker" equivocated in much the same way. They're really paralyzed by the need to nod to the he said/she said routine. I don't know why it keeps surprising me.

Yo, that was my favorite moment in the debate: Romney deciding to call Obama out on the latter's statement that he'd spoken in the Rose Garden the following day to say that the attack was an act of terrorism, and Romney looks at Obama (have I picked a fight? You got something to say, Obama?), and Obama says coolly, "Please proceed, Governor."

So great. Probably you guys noted it upthread.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:51 PM
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FACT CHECK- Neither 30 + 37 nor 46 + 39 add up to 100. The polls are six pinnochios on fire!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:51 PM
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318: There is a commercial for MSNBC in which Chris Hayes is wearing a shirt he has clearly just unwrapped from plastic. It kills me.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:53 PM
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Millions Head To Internet To Figure Out Their Own Opinions About Debate


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:54 PM
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I don't think Chuck Todd's that bad.

(runs away, sees what they're saying on tv)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 8:57 PM
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Hey, actually there's an interesting looking documentary on PBS called "Race 2012", about racial issues in politics/government over time in the U.S.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 9:07 PM
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323: says bob mcmanus's biggest defender. Von Wafer wins the debate!


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 9:08 PM
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325: What?

I'm going to watch this documentary.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 9:09 PM
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This is the first time the Orioles have been decent since I was in college, but there's going to be a wicked reversion to the mean.

Buck Showalter laughs at puny statistics-based expectations.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 9:11 PM
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326: I was just kidding around with you, parsi. My mistake. It won't happen again.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 9:12 PM
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Binder lies!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 9:24 PM
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269

I hate undecided voters so very much.

Everybody hates atheists.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 9:53 PM
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Does anyone understand 330?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 9:57 PM
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I'd like to throw some love to the OP. "Love be a btocked lady tonight," that's funny stuff.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 10:02 PM
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Luck.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 10:04 PM
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331: Trolling doesn't work every time.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 10:09 PM
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My Facebook feed is currently about 80% "Binders Full Of Women." I guess that's the main takeaway from the debate among my social circles.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 11:10 PM
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Only about half of it's from Unfogged people, too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-16-12 11:17 PM
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333: It would be funny if my typo were a result of my being btocked.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:19 AM
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In seriousness, how come no one has pointed out that the whole Binder of Women thing was essentially Romney practicing affirmative action?

And I -- and I went to my staff, and I said, "How come all the people for these jobs are -- are all men." They said, "Well, these are the people that have the qualifications." And I said, "Well, gosh, can't we -- can't we find some -- some women that are also qualified?
We took a concerted effort to go out and find women who had backgrounds that could be qualified to become members of our cabinet.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:07 AM
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338: or, rather, lying about having done so.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:43 AM
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Well, yes, I did say it was Romney speaking so that's a given.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:00 AM
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Even if he hadn't been lying, the story still sounds pretty damning to me. What, you didn't already know any qualified women?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:17 AM
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338: Because, in the story as told (and really? you are making up a story to illustrate how pro-woman you are and *that's* the best you can do?), it's not that only men applied. It's that his staff apparently found only men "have the qualifications." Oh, sure, we could just accept that his staff evaluated all the applications objectively (in the story as told) and that none of the women who applied had the qualifications. But that story is only plausible if you actually believe that it's just so much harder to find women who have qualifications (rare birds, they!).

Ugh. The debate by and large kind of bored me. But that question answer answer still has me fuming this morning. Binders full of women was bizarre, sure. But what put me over the edge was the bit about how once Romney magically transforms the economy, employers will be so anxious to find good workers that they'll want to hire women. I know right? An economy so booming that even women might be desirable members of the labor force! To think!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:17 AM
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Women's issues are an area where I think Mitt's Mormonism really shows through, to his discredit. Mormon culture is shot through with 1950s-style assumptions about the role of women -- the whole "of course working women executives need to go home early to cook dinner for their kids" thing, for example. I guess B-school culture didn't help Mittens either.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:23 AM
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it's not that only men applied

I found that a little odd on different grounds. I wasn't under the impression that people usually "apply" for cabinet positions.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:26 AM
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See, I'm less upset by the idea of professional women wanting to get home to make dinner for their kids. Probably because I blew off a 5:00 meeting last night because I decided it was more important to go home and make dinner for my kid. I'd really like, though, if the idea that working dads want to get home to make dinner for their kids also became a default assumption.

But you're right that wanting to make dinner for their kids isn't what holds women back professionally and flex-time, work/life-balance arrangements are a magic fix for gender issues in the workforce. Indeed, some women don't even have kids!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:31 AM
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It is weird he said "applicants"; I think he might have been thinking of the broader universe of gubernatorially-appointed positions rather than the cabinet; in California these are so numerous there's an online application now.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:43 AM
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I suspect that today's undecideds are less well informed than the median voter, including the women. The basic facts of Romney's life and outlook will work against him. Fifties prosperity by voting for a fifties guy is not a stance that will work on voters younger than 40.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:44 AM
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342.1: What Romney said is that his staff claimed that only men were qualified. In the story, Romney was rightly skeptical of this, and demanded that they look harder for qualified women. Then once they did take another look they found that - oh, look, it turns out there are lots of qualified women out there. Enough to fill binders with their resumes. We just somehow mysteriously didn't notice them before.

IOW it is a story about how his staff was sexist, but Romney fixed everything with his superior feminism. I think this was an attempt at a "dog whistle" to the feminist left.


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:49 AM
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Vote for me- I'm not a sexist, but every single person who works for me is!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:53 AM
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They have to put the resumes in binders because the staff is so old fashioned they have secretaries who print out all email and attachments.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:54 AM
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Did email even exist yet the last time Mitt was able to convince voters to elect him?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:58 AM
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I noticed last night that Romney tended to use phrasing such as "when I was governor of my state" [my emphasis] to refer to his time in MA. Was he avoiding saying "Massachusetts" for some reason?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:59 AM
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The difference between this debate and the other one is that now when Romney said "I have come up with a new ideology, let's call it compassionate conservativism, that has very little in common with the Republicans you're familiar with", Obama was able to say "No you haven't" rather than being flabbergasted into silent befuddlement.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:02 AM
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352. Absolutely, because saying the name brings into sharp relief that MA will not now vote for him, and that he's a creature of the East Coast.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:10 AM
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343: Very much of the "of course you can have a career*, honey, as long as it doesn't affect your responsibilities around the house" school.

*young married student the other day recounts how she's arguing with her husband because he doesn't want her to finish college because she's supposed to be planning to take care of babies. I hope she stays in school.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:11 AM
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If I'm being honest with myself, I basically shared Andrew Sullivan's completely over-the-top reactions to both debates. I thought Obama was just unbelievably awful in the first, and very good last night. Romney last night was every bit as bad as Obama was two weeks ago, and Obama performed well. I don't have a sense for how much any of this matters for outcome of the actual election, but the debate performances themselves seemed as different as night and day. In my mind, both debates seemed lopsided because of awful performances by the loser (first Obama, then Romney), rather than because of anything exceptional from the winner. I'm as stunned that anyone at all thinks Romney did well enough in the debate last night as I am that anyone thinks Obama did well enough two weeks ago--their respective performances were so poor that even partisans should be able to acknowledge the fuckups.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:22 AM
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For any Jill Stein voters out there, you'll be proud to know that you are making common cause with Camille Paglia:

OK: Who are you going to vote for?
I am voting for the Green Party.
Oh, you are? I don't even know who the Green candidate is. Who is it?
Jill Stein -- a doctor from Massachusetts. Now, I wouldn't be voting Green if Roseanne Barr had won the nomination, but Stein is a solid and sensible candidate.

Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:23 AM
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Re his manifest contempt for women having an equal seat at the table: No wonder the fucker bagged on going on The View this week.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:26 AM
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I don't see where Romney's thing about hiring women was a sign of contempt or condescension or obliviousness. The story is, his advisers told him to hire all men. He said no, there must be qualified women, go find some. Turned out he was right! Now maybe this is a lie, but it's not the sort of story Rick Santorum would ever make up.

Same thing when Romney said that in his magical future economy, employers will be nicer and more willing to give mother-friendly flexible hours, because the job market will be better and employees will have more negotiating power. Now, the part about Romney wanting to reduce the pool of surplus labor is a lie, but the rest sounds fine. This was instantly twisted by some people into "Romney: When I'm in charge, employers will be so eager to hire people, they'll even hire women!"


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:32 AM
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359: It's a sign of obliviousness that he thinks that the solution to ensuring that qualified women are considered for positions is a matter of the man at the top being a noble gentleman. (It also seems that the story is false.)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:37 AM
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One last thought before I go away to await the next debate or cock joke thread.

It's not over until I get to gnaw on Tom Brokaw's skull. </HST>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:41 AM
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360 is right. Obama said, we want to sign equality into law, Romney said, women should depend on employers' largesse.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:44 AM
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359.1: It fits into his overall pattern of not generally seeing women as having agency in their own lives or the world in general, you ignorant slut. But I'm sure Tom Brokaw would share your perspective.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:44 AM
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I think Roseanne Barr would make a decent president. She has demonstrated more concern for working families than either of the guys running now.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:46 AM
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It shows that he thinks of hiring as a phenomenon in which one person is matched to one job. When he thinks of Massachusetts hiring people, he thinks of the people he handpicked for the cabinet, which was similar to how people were hired at his company. Not the principles and policies that led to thousands of people being hired every year for civil service jobs.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:49 AM
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331

Does anyone understand 330?

Flippanter, an Obama voter, is apparently fine with Romney voters but hates those of us not in thrall to either.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:50 AM
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Just one of the things Flippanter and God have in common.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:52 AM
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362: My sister on the academic market!


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:53 AM
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366: James, I think you would have been clearer if you'd had everyone hating on agnostics. Atheists can be viewed as having chosen a side in a binary contest.

Plus, everyone really does hate agnostics, who are just atheists that don't have the guts to admit it.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:01 AM
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Obama said, we want to sign equality into law, Romney said, women should depend on employers' largesse.

It's SOP for Republicans, of course, to reject structural solutions to structural issues, but it's thrown into relief by Romney's independent power as a governor CEO and his wealth. To wit, Ryan's story at the VP debate about Mittens paying for college for some poor unfortunate whose parents were in a car accident (or whatever that story was; I was distracted by the fact that he was stupid enough to tell a car accident story while sitting next to Biden). Isn't Mitt compassionate! One whole person's life won't be ruined by lack of affordable care!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:01 AM
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I demand to know which god every front page poster is voting for.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:07 AM
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I'm more interested in whether they will spit, vomit, or spue the agnostics out of their mouths.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:10 AM
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YOU DON"T VOTE FOR GOD

GOD VOTES FOR YOU


Posted by: OPINIONATED CALVINIST | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:11 AM
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This debate really showed how wrong the whole 'Obama doesn't want to be President' interpretation of the first debate was. I think in the first debate Obama got caught really flat footed when Romney switched from 'Republican primary Romney' to 'general election Romney', which involved smooth denials of lots of the shit he had to say to conservatives to win the nomination. I actually think Romney's shift back to just lying about his past committments speaks kind of well of him, in that he knows quite well that the various Republican tax promises don't add up.

Fifties prosperity by voting for a fifties guy is not a stance that will work on voters younger than 40.

the fifties have a bad rep because of the race/gender attitutudes but purely in economic policy '50s-style prosperity' was much better than what we have now. (The heritage of the New Deal). If we could get 50s tax rates, union participation, and banking regulation, not to mention going back to 50s rates of income inequality, that would be pretty cool.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:17 AM
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I was distracted by the fact that he was stupid enough to tell a car accident story while sitting next to Biden

And that he segued into it from the automaker bailout issue via a remark a Mitt being a car guy. That's unfathomable cluelessness on a par with the soup kitchen stunt.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:18 AM
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I demand to know which god every front page poster is voting for.

Heebie: YHWH (like IBM, no one ever got fired for choosing YHWH)
Lizardbreath: the Eumenides, running jointly
Apostropher: Dionysius
Neb: Thoth
Alameida: Cthulhu (family connection)


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:20 AM
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374.1: Agreed, but I would add that he also seemed surprised by Romney's agressiveness. He must've practiced quite a bit between the two events.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:20 AM
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50s-style prosperity' was much better than what we have now. (The heritage of the New Deal)

In absolute terms, yes. But both rapid domestic growth as well as the USA being the most powerful nation in both military and economic terms is a consequence of the rest of the world recovering from having been bombed to shit.

It is relative prosperity that matters politically, both with respect to the recent past and to other countries. Having kids get a job that supports food, shelter, and basic medicine is not enough if there was more in living memory, or if Brazilians are doing just as well.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:27 AM
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We are all sinners in the chads of an angry God.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:32 AM
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369

James, I think you would have been clearer if you'd had everyone hating on agnostics. ...

You may be right.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:34 AM
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378: you often hear this but I don't completely agree with it. I think if we had our current economic institutions in the 50s we would have had a very different pattern of growth, one less beneficial to the middle class. Basically the elites would have captured much more of the surplus from our privileged economic position. There was a massive decline in income inequality post-WWII, and I think the key was New Deal institutions and consensus.

Also, no one ever points out that the idea that the poverty of the rest of the world made us richer is totally at odds with mainstream microeconomics and trade economics. It's basically a mercantilist idea of growth. I mean, I agree with that mercantilist idea, but it's interesting that everyone intuitively adopts it for that period without noting its divergence from current orthodoxy. Of course, your emphasis on relative prosperity is one way to bridge that difference.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 8:38 AM
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the idea that the poverty of the rest of the world made us richer is totally at odds with mainstream microeconomics and trade economics.

That's not what the argument is, though. The rest of the world wasn't poor, it just didn't have stuff, or the means to make stuff, due to it all having been bombed etc. So it bought lots of stuff from the US.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:04 AM
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OT: Is RealClearPolitics a right-leaning blog?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:05 AM
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Same thing when Romney said that in his magical future economy, employers will be nicer and more willing to give mother-friendly flexible hours, because the job market will be better and employees will have more negotiating power. Now, the part about Romney wanting to reduce the pool of surplus labor is a lie, but the rest sounds fine. This was instantly twisted by some people into "Romney: When I'm in charge, employers will be so eager to hire people, they'll even hire women!"

Here's what he said:

We're going to have to have employers in the new economy, in the economy I'm going to bring to play, that are going to be so anxious to get good workers they're going to be anxious to hire women.

Takes a lot more twisting, im(never very)ho to make that about flexible hours and negotiating power than to make it about employers so eager to hire that they'll be eager to hire women.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:15 AM
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384=me


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:15 AM
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384: Yes.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:19 AM
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Whoops, 386 to 383.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:20 AM
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387: Oh, *fine*!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:21 AM
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But 386 to 384, too. I just hadn't read it yet.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:23 AM
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389: Thanks. I feel better now.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:27 AM
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The rest of the world wasn't poor, it just didn't have stuff, or the means to make stuff,

I don't know, sounds poor to me.

due to it all having been bombed etc. So it bought lots of stuff from the US.

That was kind of my point, in standard micro (or micro-based macro) you're not supposed to have to destroy the world to juice aggregate demand. Per Say's Law and later neoclassical variants, aggregate demand is supposed to take care of itself, at least approxmately.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:27 AM
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The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant: a Fassbinder full of women.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:29 AM
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After listening to the debate, it occurs to me that I dislike political speech so much that I have a hard time telling who is better at it (or won a debate). The whole formula (tear-jerking anecdote, something I did, something bad about the other person) leaves out the stuff I want to hear entirely (in a nasally voice: well, Megan, I think that's best addressed by adjusting General Plan section 1674.3(a) to require pervious cement in every frontage longer than 25ft. If you like, I can explain why we didn't choose a 30ft threshhold.). I didn't like Romney's answers, but then Obama's answers feel vague and anecdotal too. Since both leave me dissatisfied, the day after when people are saying that one guy smashed the other guy, I don't really get why.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:35 AM
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393: you need to be very sensitively attuned to every nuance of messaging in order to determine which side's bullshit is more bullshitty, or whether one side went beyond the bounds of permissible dishonesty.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:40 AM
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Well, Megan, I think that's best addressed by adjusting General Plan section 1674.3(a) to require pervious cement in every frontage longer than 25ft. If you like, I can explain why we didn't choose a 30ft threshhold.

So, kind of like this guy?

I do know what you mean -- I was watching with the kids and snarling at both of them for either lying or not really saying anything.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:40 AM
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386: Thanks, pf. I know I could have looked into it myself; I'd just become puzzled in the last week or so, since that blog is cited relatively often for its polling summaries, yet whenever I've clicked over to something there, it seems .. right-leaning.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:43 AM
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I read the blogs. I know the objections to most of the common bullshit. I don't like the whole communication style. I'd skip the whole anecdote part, and then I want to hear exactly which levers they'd pull. I'd be happy to stipulate love for their families and concern for the poors if it would make them skip the anecdote and spend more time on what they can change and the three or four reasons that's the thing that would be most influential to change.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:45 AM
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Yes, that guy exactly. I'd love to vote for him for president.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:48 AM
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If you have pervious cement, then the water will escape into the ground.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:50 AM
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393, 395: Yeah, absolutely. I was cringing at Obama's answers in the first 10 minutes, then sighing at them for the next. (boilerplate! campaign pitch!) OTOH, and I do mean this: 2 minutes really is not a hell of a lot of time to say much of real substance. I mused about that last night: why 2 minutes? It makes the respondents talk really fast and use catchphrases that are intended to capture/indicate whole arguments that are spelled out elsewhere -- though in Romney's case, they're not actually spelled out anywhere.

Obama did get better after the first half hour or so. The 2-minute thing, though: is that some standard debate club practice or what?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:52 AM
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Two minutes is the maximum attention span of the average voter.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:58 AM
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The script in 395 is hilarious. Also hilarious is that in the stills I don't know which one is supposed to be Carter.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:01 AM
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Further to 400, here's a concrete-ish example. The candidates' responses to the first question from the college student who asked how they'd help him after he graduated were ... non-responsive.

It's obviously a question about the candidate's plan for the next four years. Talk about student loans and jobs. I don't know why Obama has, as far as I've noticed, failed to talk about his American Jobs Act proposal (languishing in congress): talk about its contents, investment in infrastructure, tax incentives for small businesses, and whatever else is in there. Re: student loans, do I seem to remember a proposal from a while back that loan repayments be tied to a percentage of income? (What happened to that? How would that work? Some kind of financial regulation or something?)

That stuff is, in any case, relatively meaty, concrete, and forward-looking.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:15 AM
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404

I don't know why Obama has, as far as I've noticed, failed to talk about his American Jobs Act proposal (languishing in congress)

It's far better for Obama to emphasize things he's actually accomplished than things he wanted to do but was unable to accomplish. Obama has to tread very carefully when making the "I'd be doing all this great stuff if only Congress weren't blocking me" argument because it opens him up to a potentially-devastating two-pronged counter-attack: 1) "So if Congress blocks you again in your next term, you won't be able to get anything done then, either?" 2) "Romney wouldn't face the same opposition from Congress, so he'd be able to actually get stuff done.*"

* Yeah, the stuff he'd be getting done would be really bad stuff, but at least he'd be getting stuff done.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:34 AM
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405

The main problem with non-lawyers doing questioning is that they fail to ask follow-up questions. Of course the first answer to any remotely tough question is going to be evasive or nonresponsive. One of the things I liked about the most recent debate was that they gave Candy Crowley (sp) just a little bit of room to ask follow up questions, although not nearly enough.

Also, and this is more in the realm of fantasy, the candidates should be able to bring documents to the debate. "Oh really, Mr. Romney. Well I've got a transcript of your speech before the Republican club of South Carolina in January right here. Can you read page 18, paragraph 12, line 6 into the record?" People will lie like crazy until you confront them with documents.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:34 AM
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406

405: all of this was covered in The Newsroom. Are you Aaron Sorkin?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:36 AM
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407

No, I haven't taken nearly enough drugs.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:39 AM
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408

the candidates should be able to bring documents to the debate

Look, I've got my binder full of women right here! What have you got, Mr. President?


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:39 AM
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409

What if the debate was conducted on a floating platform on a lake of lava? It would be sort of tippy, but also big enough to get a running start at somebody.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:45 AM
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410

|| Is it improper to refer to opposing counsel's argument as "insane"? |>


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:52 AM
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411

I really think the 24 hour closed room crisis simulation idea I floated a while back would be way better than the debates. It would be about 100x as entertaining, and more informative.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:53 AM
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412

Arguably, even putting the candidates in for 48 hours on Real World/Road Rules challenge would be more informative.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:54 AM
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413

410: There are always circumlocutions. "Highly original, albeit perhaps poorly supported" has worked for me in the past.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:56 AM
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414

Debates are an outmoded technology that haven't changed since the 1850s.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:57 AM
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415

I kinda think a Real World/Road Rules challenge is one of the few things that a horrible road campaign might actually prepare candidates for. They don't do their own logistics, but the hours and crappy food must be similar.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:57 AM
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416

"has no basis in law or reason."


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:58 AM
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417

I thought debates in the 1850s were more structured around the candidates responding to each other at length.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:58 AM
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418

Or you could just deal with the substance of the argument, rather than throwing a bunch of words together that don't mean anything.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 10:59 AM
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419

What if the debate was conducted on a floating platform on a lake of lava?

Which candidate gets horribly burned and ends up in the Vader suit?


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:00 AM
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420

The Lincoln-Douglas debates are amazing. Giants walked the land back then.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:00 AM
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421

Honestly, my idea for using advances in reality TV show technology to improve the political process is so awesome. It would be especially great in the primaries -- you could have every major party candidate put on an island for 72 hours and given a series of challenges.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:02 AM
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422

Thanks, counselors! I was running out of good circumlocutions for "batshit nonsense."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:03 AM
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423

"has no basis in law, reason or in the very nature of reality."

What? Too over-the-top?

I fondly remember a motion to dismiss I worked on when I was very junior where the senior partner characterized the claims in the complaint as "thin gruel in a very thick bowl." Which, you can kind of tell, makes no real sense, but you see what he means. Opposing counsel snapped back in the opposition that their claims were "A thick, rich, stew indeed", which really, really makes very little sense at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:03 AM
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424

The quoted part of 413 is eerily similar to the comments I got on a paper yesterday.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:03 AM
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425

In your context, it was probably dripping with slightly less sarcasm.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:04 AM
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426

418 assumes facts not in evidence. There is no substance to the argument. Ergo, "insane."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:04 AM
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427

404: Obama has to tread very carefully when making the "I'd be doing all this great stuff if only Congress weren't blocking me" argument because it opens him up to a potentially-devastating two-pronged counter-attack

I understand, but I don't really buy it, to be honest. Given that that counter-attack can be launched regarding any proposal, if one therefore avoids saying anything whatsoever about what one would like to do, one -- Obama -- looks like a man without a plan.

I think things can be framed simply enough as: 'I'd like to do this, and I propose that. These initiatives would improve the general welfare in the following ways: [spell out]. I have put forward the American Jobs Act proposal, which does this and that.' continue ...

It's self-knee-capping to avoid making any mention of what you want to do, and, perhaps more importantly, making a case for *why* you want to do them (reduce income inequality, etc.). We here know this stuff, but I didn't hear much of it last night except in the most coded of terms.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:06 AM
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428

That's pretty awesome. I got a response to my "two bites at the apple" argument (I hate the cliche, but it's almost a legal principle by now) which was a convoluted analogy about taking one bite from an apple and another bite from an orange.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:06 AM
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429

428 to 423.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:07 AM
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430

418, 426: Right -- this is probably hard to appreciate if you're not looking at it, but a really nutty legal argument can easily get too meaningless to engage with on its own terms, because it really hasn't got any coherent terms. You get this soup of what should be technically defined terms, being thrown around out of context such that there's literally no way to attribute an exact meaning to them. To talk about it, you have to identify it as outside the normal scope of argument.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:07 AM
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426: there's no substance to calling an argument "insane." If you can actually show that the argument has no substance, you don't need to call it anything.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:14 AM
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432

Oh, now I want to integrate the soup metaphor into this response! Thin gruel in a dense vessel and opposing counsel just keeps throwing in random oddities in hopes of transforming it into something less disgusting.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:15 AM
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433

431: Fallacious interspersing commentary speciously self-tautologizes, making your tactic unworkable.

Prove me wrong.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:16 AM
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434

Well done.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:18 AM
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435

Gee, thanks for the enlightenment, text. I had no concept of legal reasoning and sincerely thought just labeling my opponent's position "insane" would do the trick. Phew. You saved me from that gaffe!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:19 AM
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436

Dammit LB. I think I *could* make an effective argument in response to 433.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:20 AM
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437

Irrelevantly, "gaffe" is such a strange word. It derives from the French for "boat hook", really? There has to be more to that story.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:20 AM
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433: You have written that my comments are "specious" and "self-tautologing." You have also written that they are fallacious and that they are interspersed. And that's it, all in a clumsy sentence.

Of those claims, it is true that my comments are interspersed. Otherwise you are just listing a bunch of words that mean "wrong" and "bad." Actually, "self-tautologizes" doesn't mean anything. It's redundant. A tautology is already self-referential.

So, you have written a conclusory sentence that just means "you are wrong" and "your comments are interspersed." And you did it in a clumsy way, with a bunch of words that mean the same thing, to the extent that they mean anything.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:21 AM
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439

There has to be more to that story.

Certainly, every good story needs a hook.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:21 AM
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440

||

Jesus Christ, judges will make me get old before my time. I've been waiting for ten months for a decision on two (identical) very simple motions in two (almost identical) proceedings before the same judge. Her chambers has lost and refound the file several times, and kept on getting puzzled about whether she was actually supposed to decide the motion. Which she has to before anything else can happen in either proceeding.

The motions were that the other party should have to do something by a date certain. She just granted both motions in their entirety, without specifying what the goddam date certain actually was. Now I have to make another motion asking her to clarify, and she's just going to lose that one again. Argh.

|>


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:21 AM
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441

now isn't that much better than just calling you crazy, and probably a bad lawyer?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:22 AM
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442

436: chronologically, fallaciousness facially obviates speciousness.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:23 AM
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443

440

Which side does delay favor?


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:24 AM
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444

441: No, because you didn't address the substance of what I said -- apparently you failed to understand the distinction between tautology and self-tautology. If it's too difficult for you to understand, obviously you haven't been able to refute it.

(Actually, I didn't manage to be quite nonsensical enough -- you could attribute a meaning to the sentence in 433 that might be defensible. Real word-salad is hard to generate. But there is a point at which you can't just say something is wrong, you have to point out that it's incomprehensible nonsense, if it is.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:27 AM
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445

443: Them.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:27 AM
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446

Right -- this is probably hard to appreciate if you're not looking at it, but a really nutty legal argument can easily get too meaningless to engage with on its own terms, because it really hasn't got any coherent terms.

It's tricky to debate Mitt for a similar reason.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:28 AM
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447

The problem with text is that text is a boat and boats are made of dirt and dirt is bad. QED.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:28 AM
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448

442:

If you think about it, that statement is probably true.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:28 AM
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449

Oh, the lawyers are talking this isn't a political thread any more.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:29 AM
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450

444: Indeed. The very substance of your attempted speciousness belies the underlying ad hominem confluence spawned by the interjection of a non-sequitur.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:31 AM
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451

447: Hmm, I don't think that one's gonna float.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:32 AM
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452

If the sentence actually has some meaning, you can always point out how that meaning is wrong or unsupported.

If the sentence doesn't have any meaning, just quote it. Or diagram it if you want to take the time.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:35 AM
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453

400: Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:36 AM
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454

If the sentence doesn't have any meaning, just quote it. Or diagram it if you want to take the time.

This is better than saying it doesn't have any meaning?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:36 AM
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455

The real problem is that I am getting so annoyed by the increasing multiplication of increasingly bizarre arguments in this case, that I'm starting to write my response in a tone I would use here. And I'm pretty sure "fuck you, clown," would get me sanctioned.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:36 AM
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456

The problem is that you're thinking it's tedious to do that. But it can actually be fun! Think of it like you're hunting with Dick Cheney.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:37 AM
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457

456 to 455


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:38 AM
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458

Sometimes, what works for me when that happens is to just go with it, and then go back and edit out the epithets and tone everything down a notch. You end up with something that's less legalese-sounding than usual, but that's not a bad thing.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:39 AM
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459

It's better than just saying: "you crazy!"


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:39 AM
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460

Fascinatingly, no one advised 'you crazy' as a useful way of describing opposing counsel's arguments. In blog comments, of course, its utility is unimpaired.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:41 AM
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461

Our debates are kind of sliding toward a single combat type reality show event -- I mean, when you get two guys competing over who looks more alpha while calling the other a liar, are we that far from just fistfighting?


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:41 AM
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462

There was a minute or so in the middle when they were nose-to-nose shouting where my kids were yelling "Fight, fight! Hit him!" They're badly brought up. I blame society.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:43 AM
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460: right, Di wanted to call them "insane" and you wanted to throw in a very impressive word jumble.

Those are both techniques for avoiding the substance of an argument.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:44 AM
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464

Don't get me wrong. It's kind of a blast writing a legal document like I'm responding to some obnoxious troll. I will think it needs serious toning down before filing, but my partner/client will probably love it as is...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:45 AM
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465

Reality TV technology has moved far beyond single combat events. That's also 19th Century technology.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:46 AM
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466

461: Yeah, the alpha thing was so transparent. The thing is, I'm not sure it's very far from reality. Romney set those terms, though.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:46 AM
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461: As the debate progressed, I was actually anticipating that one of them would sucker-punch the other, and they would then proceed to beat the living shit out of each other until one of them was dead.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:46 AM
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468

"Opposing counsel's argument is just so crazy I can't even address it!"

Always a good strategy. I say keep going with it.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:46 AM
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469

Those are both techniques for avoiding the substance of an argument.

Sure. Or, at least if you assume that either of those options were intended to be in lieu of rather than in addition to a response.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:47 AM
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470

Always a good strategy. I say keep going with it.

Who you going to vote for? Huh? Tell me know! Who? I wanna know! Tell me. Who you gonna vote for!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:48 AM
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471

It sounds like you have everything under control, Di. I wonder why you're even going onto a blog to ask how to make your legal arguments.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:50 AM
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468: It really is a good strategy where appropriate. The polite way of saying "So crazy there's no way to respond to it in its own terms" is the first sentence of a paragraph, of course. The rest of it goes on to point out what in the argument fails to make sense, which terms are not being used in any comprehensible way, and so on. But there's a difference between writing "This argument is incorrect because (a), (b) and (c)," and "This piece of writing isn't a working argument at all, much less a correct one, because (a), (b), and (c)". You point out that it's not a functional argument to flag for the judge that you're going to do the latter, rather than the former.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 11:51 AM
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453: I was going to invoke the Kobayashi Maru in response to Halford's 411, but I didn't want everyone to think I was a geek.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:06 PM
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474

472 is right.

The big problem with an insane opposing brief is that judges (particularly appellate judges, who have more time) view the crazy argument as a kind of Rorsarch test the judges can use to come up with the best arguments against (your) sane position. So the challenge is not so much to refute the crazy, as to prevent a judge from latching on to something in the whirlwind of crazy that's actually a good argument. The dange is that the judge latches on to somethig you've failed to address sufficiently because you're responding to a general whirlwind of crazy.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:07 PM
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475

474 exactly.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:09 PM
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476

So not addressing the argument gives judges less opportunity to take it where they want to go? Doesn't follow.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:11 PM
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477

Appellant's opening brief is so crazy that I'm afraid if I address it, you'll find something worthwhile in it, your honor. So just rest assured, it's crazy.

I think it's a good strategy, go with it.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:13 PM
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478

473:
"Your solution to the Iranian nuclear crisis was, shall we say, unique."
"It had the virtue of never having been tried."


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:14 PM
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479

476, 477: Now you're getting it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:18 PM
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480

So the challenge is not so much to refute the crazy, as to prevent a judge from latching on to something in the whirlwind of crazy that's actually a good argument.

Oh, that is just the worst thing when judges do that. Or even just worrying that they're going to do it, is also a very bad thing.

(I had that tendency myself when I was a clerk, too, but why should that stop me from complaining?)


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:27 PM
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481

I hope the legal profession doesn't think that it came up with these rhetorical forms all by itself, as though they're new. I assume it does not.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:31 PM
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482

My usual technique for dealing with an incoherent opposing brief is to try and tease out 2-3 decent but losing arguments from the other side's papers, state the other side's arguments clearly and coherently, and then decisively refute them, while very briefly explaining why everything else in the brief is incoherent.

Sometimes this provokes resistance from clients or other lawyers ("why are you doing a better job making the other side's case than they can do themselves?") but I think you're almost always better off clearly framing the issues for a judge, and explaining why you win on that framing, than you are relying on the craziness in your opponent's crazy brief to lose the case for them.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:35 PM
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474: A brief can be so crazy it just might work?
It's the Hannibal Smith school of legal argumentation.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:38 PM
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484

I hope the legal profession doesn't think that it came up with these rhetorical forms all by itself, as though they're new. I assume it does not.

Um.... Okay.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:38 PM
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485

I think that's a pretty safe assumption. Most professions, being abstract concepts and all, don't have much in the way of thoughts.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:39 PM
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486

Dentistry comes up with an interesting bon mot occasionally. Probably the nitrous.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:40 PM
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487

Mostly the legal profession tromps heavily about the meadow, or naps, or grazes on nice green grass, but when it thinks at all, it thinks about clouds.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:41 PM
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488

Blacksmithing tells a fine dirty limerick.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:41 PM
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489

Personally (I can't speak for the rest of the profession) I never come up with anything new if I can help it. Maybe a new way of using an old thing sometimes. That can be fun.


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:42 PM
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490

My opposing counsel is coming up with new stuff so often it's crazy!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:43 PM
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491

If you looked into it, all of his arguments probably go back to 17th century French literary criticism.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:47 PM
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492

"Hey, I just sued you, and this is crazy, but here's my motion. Coherent, maybe?"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:50 PM
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493

483: It's the drunken boxing school of rhetoric. They can't refute you if even you don't know how your argument is going to end.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:51 PM
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494

Canonically it's the Chewbacca Defense, no?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:55 PM
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495

It's the drunken boxing school of rhetoric

To be clear, we do not believe we came up with this all by ourself.


Posted by: The Legal Profession | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:55 PM
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496

495: Are you by any chance related to The Plain People of Ireland?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:57 PM
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497

Romney claims that automatic weapons are already illegal. Quick google search seems to disagree? I don't know anything about gun laws.

Full autos, short barreled shotguns and rifles, suppressors, etc. are legal but highly regulated. Generally referred to as Class III or NFA items and some states ban them. If you're in a state where they're legal you still have to get a federal permit from the ATF that requires you to pass a background check and put your fingerprints on file with them.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 12:57 PM
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498

If you want to get around the background check you can glue a bunch of regular rifles together and shoot them one after another.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:00 PM
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499

So they're not illegal. I at least thought he got that right. He could at least figure out a few basic things about each issue, you would think. He's just running for president right now -- he doesn't have a day job, right?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:03 PM
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500

How much money do you guys think he's going to lose on this thing, in total?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:07 PM
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501

It's illegal for a civilian to buy an automatic weapons made after 1986.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:09 PM
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502

To get a machine gun, you have to find somebody who wants to get rid of their machine gun and hope they kept it in good shape.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:12 PM
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503

I dunno, Moby. I trust gswift on this, and you on nothing.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:14 PM
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504

I would guess that Romney is going to lose about a thousand times as much money as would make my wife happy for me to earn this year.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:16 PM
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505

Full autos are quite expensive on the private market. Illegally possessing an NFA item is dumber than hell. Sawing a few inches off of a shotgun means catching a federal charge and federal charges are not to be fucked with.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:17 PM
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506

federal charges are not to be fucked with

Ahh, yeah, not any more.

Good times, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:19 PM
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507

Rather than saw off a shotgun, you're better off to get a bigger coat.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:21 PM
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508

502 is right.

Rather than saw off a shotgun, you're better off to get a bigger coat.

Seriously. Similarly, for god's sakes don't rob a bank. The average haul is quite small and it's pretty typical to get ten years in a federal pen for that kind of thing. Go steal a car or something.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:24 PM
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509

502 is right.

I'm sure Moby is relieved that text can trust him on this one.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:27 PM
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510

410-422: I'm not a lawyer, but I still like my version.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:27 PM
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511

I've got plenty of firearms inside where it's warm.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:28 PM
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512

508: I hear bicycles have a great risk/reward these days.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:28 PM
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513

Not as part of a RICO-type organization, though. I represented a guy pro-bono once who was looking at something like ten years in federal prison for buying a car that prosecutors said he should have known was stolen. He was going to get charged as part of the interstate car theft ring, with the sentence calculated on the basis of the value of all the cars stolen by the ring as a whole. He pleaded guilty to a lesser charge, they let him out with time served, and he went back to Ghana.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:29 PM
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514

I hear bicycles have a great risk/reward these days.

Totally. I'm amazed at how many people drop a couple grand on a bike and don't have the serial number written down. And local internet ads have made selling them a breeze.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:31 PM
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515

514: aside from the immensely remote chance the bike gets recovered (not even sure who would do that) before it gets flipped, what good would that do?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:33 PM
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516

Seems like the DIY Craigslist sting is about the likeliest option at this point.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:34 PM
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517

wow, if I were a petty thief I'd definitely send you an email for some pointers, sifu.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:36 PM
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518

You don't know my email address.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:37 PM
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519

that's funny, I was sure that I did.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:38 PM
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520

Debates are an outmoded technology that haven't changed since the 1850s.

I think their heyday was even earlier than that. Debates seem to be very popular among the various fringe anti-science groups, and I sort of assume it's out of an attempt to bring back a pre-scientific intellectual culture (see also, the classical education movement). I basically assume anyone who actually wants to have a debate about anything hates science.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:39 PM
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521

512: the County Council is the culprit.


Posted by: OPINIONATED SERGEANT PLUCK | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:45 PM
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522

So, when I go by the local pawnshops, it seems like the two things they always have prominently displayed are bicycles and power tools. What's the chance that either type of item is stolen? I've just assumed it's 80/20 stolen/unstolen, but I don't know if that's extraordinarily cynical or extraordinarily naive.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:50 PM
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523

If you looked into it, all of his arguments probably go back to 17th century French literary criticism.

Lots of extra s's and y's scattered in the briefs?


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:55 PM
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524

what good would that do?

Because with a serial number you can put it in NCIC as stolen property and any cop in the country who stops someone with that bike will see it's stolen property, the originating agency's case number, etc. and can actually arrest the guy. I encounter what I'm pretty sure is stolen goods all the time but without the stuff being in the system you're usually SOL when it comes to proving it and seizing the property.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:55 PM
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525

So where do you guys sell your stolen bikes? Or do you keep them around as trophies?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:57 PM
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526

What's the chance that either type of item is stolen?

Fairly high, although supposedly lower on the tools lately because the housing construction crash led to a lot of guys being out of work and pawning tools.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:57 PM
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527

Do people ever LoJack a bike? That would seem like a reasonable idea if there was a way to make it work. I have no idea how big the unit is.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 1:59 PM
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528

That makes sense. I've been going under the assumption that the past few years have probably been a great time to buy boats, guns, motorcycles, etc. for similar reasons.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:01 PM
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529

527: ....laydeez.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:01 PM
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530

du-oh.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:03 PM
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531

It's not so much the size of the unit as the charge in the battery.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:03 PM
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532

After our house was robbed, we called around to pawnshops and got elaborate explanations that California had such strict regulation of pawnshops that the only place you could be sure NOT to find stolen goods was a pawnshop. They told us to try swapmeets or Craigslist.

We never did see our stuff again (yet) and I don't know how much to believe the pawnshops, but they certainly all said that they were the last place to find our stolen musical instruments.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:13 PM
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533

There was a minute or so in the middle when they were nose-to-nose shouting where my kids were yelling "Fight, fight! Hit him!"

"Get two knives!"


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:25 PM
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534

532 -- Didn't you try to do some kind of a sting operation on the thief?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:31 PM
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535

Naw, we realized the mandolin on CL wasn't the one stolen from us. But for a couple excitable hours, I thought it was.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:35 PM
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536

Is cycling without shoes as stupid as it looks? I just saw two women ride by, one wearing toe shoes and the other with completely bare feet.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:52 PM
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537

536: experience says: very much so.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 2:58 PM
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538

It depends. Are you in danger of falling off?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 3:01 PM
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539

Cycling with those little booties on looks even stupider, but it probably works better.

You know what I can't figure out? Walking around on the bike path in the middle of the day, you see all these guys on really expensive bikes, all decked out in the finest racing kit, who look like they should be working somewhere. Fit, upper-middle class, driven -- there can't be that many freelance graphic designers/yoga instructors in this town.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 3:03 PM
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540

538: Always with the "depends" this one -- it's like a fetish or something.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 3:07 PM
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541

I know. Wouldn't it be great if all of the people with really sick fetishes -- who had like screwed up relationships because of them -- just wanted to wear depends, natilo?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 3:16 PM
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542

Why do you think it would be great?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:03 PM
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543

It might improve your relationships, natilo.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:07 PM
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544

I'm assuming that would be a good thing, but maybe I shouldn't.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:09 PM
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545

Why do you think it would be great if my relationships were improved?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:09 PM
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546

Don't you think you and your loved ones would be happier if your sick fetishes were instead the depends-wearing variety?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:12 PM
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547

Why would you assume that? Why would you not assume it?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:12 PM
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548

Why do you think me and my loved ones would be happier if my sick fetishes were instead the depends-wearing variety


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:13 PM
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549

?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:14 PM
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550

It stands to reason that a person and his family would be happier if their dangerous sexual fetishes were tamed. I was applying that logic to your dangerous sexual fetishes. Do you disagree with that, natilo?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:17 PM
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551

?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 4:20 PM
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552

Hey, text! I dunno why, but this just occurred to me. Have you ever considered becoming a mod on reddit? I mean *blush* maybe you already are. How would I know? It's just that it's such a super welcoming, affirmative place, and you don't need a day job or anything. To do it. And I hear they might be looking for new people. I know it might seem "lame" or "mainstream," but it's what you make of it, right?


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 5:00 PM
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553

I'm sure this is totally presumptuous of me. It just seems like, I don't know, you're a very clever "fox" or "trickster," "Loki" figure, right? Maybe that's too mythological or something. I don't know, you can probably set me straight. And I'm sure you're not, like, looking for new things to do, so I probably shouldn't have said anything. Oh golly, I just keep typing!


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 5:02 PM
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554

I don't know what reddit is and I doubt I'll look into it, but thanks, lurid keyaki.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 5:10 PM
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555

OMG, you're a genius. That was a brilliant work right there. I'm in awe.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 5:15 PM
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556

I'm so easily awed!


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 5:15 PM
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557

I guess you are. Life must be nice for you.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 5:24 PM
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558

unfogged is a strange and wonderful place today.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 5:44 PM
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559

I am the only person on this thread who is not an Eliza bot. I don't like to look out the window, so I can only assume you were all killed in a nuclear war. I always imagined nuclear wars would make more noise.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 5:45 PM
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560

559.1: I beg your pardon. I do admit that I was concerned -- though in another thread -- whether you were a Republican. But I think I can let that go.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 5:51 PM
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561

Was 560 really in reply to 559?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:08 PM
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562

539: doctors work weird hours and have weird days off.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:08 PM
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563

561: tell me about your 559.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:09 PM
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564

561: I believe so.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:12 PM
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565

How does it make you feel when I tell you about my 559?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:13 PM
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566

Yes, I think that 559 as well. Are you enjoying this conversation?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:14 PM
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567

Yes.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:19 PM
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568

Okay, I see where parsimon asked me the question originally.

In order:

a) I really am a registered Republican, so that I can vote in the Republican primary. There's always a Republican I want to vote against, and rarely a Democrat I particularly want to vote for.

b) As Sifu surmised, I'm a huge Nicki Minaj fan. I even like that Starships song that probably objectively sucks.

c) If I really do vote for Romney, it really will be because I'm trying to destroy America.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:26 PM
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569

If I vote for Romney, it will be because I'm trying to destroy Israel.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:29 PM
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570

If I vote for Romney, it will because it sends the message that this country needs a real progressive party on the left.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:32 PM
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571

568: What does Nicki Minaj have to do with it? Is she a Republican?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:35 PM
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572

Eliza bot

Or as the whippersnappers today would say, Siri.

I tried to ask Siri questions about her relationship with Wolfram Alpha but she got really evasive.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:39 PM
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573

I don't know how much to believe the pawnshops, but they certainly all said that they were the last place to find our stolen musical instruments.

That sounds overstated. Just like with bikes, IME very few people have the serial numbers written down on guitars and such and proving an item is stolen without that info is just about impossible.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:43 PM
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574

569 -- antisemite.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:43 PM
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575

So that whole Siri thing -- does anyone use it after the novelty factor wears off? If you start using it again after a long hiatus, does it get all pushy like new-text?


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:43 PM
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576

Holy crap do I hate Siri. Its only function seems to be to come on when I don't want it to.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:44 PM
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577

571: She said in a song she was voting for Romney.

What did I say that made you think I was a Republican?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:45 PM
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578

575: I have used it to send simple texts maybe two or three times. It... does not work well in most cases.

Kinda fun to make nonsense syllables at it, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:47 PM
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579

If you start using it again after a long hiatus, does it get all pushy like new-text?

The worst offender there is the Wii Fit. I get on the thing after 6 months and it gets all snippy about missing me and makes passive aggressive comments about how fat I am. I can't believe they didn't design that thing with a "shut the fuck up" option.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:48 PM
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580

What did I say that made you think I was a Republican?

Maybe this?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:50 PM
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581

579: Wii Fit didn't even say anything nice after I ran my half marathon. She's just stuck up because she looks so good in yoga pants.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:53 PM
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582

Or this?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:54 PM
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583

575: old-text was so lovely, and I never knew him as textualist.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:54 PM
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584

Or this!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 6:54 PM
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585

God, I really am a Republican. It's like I never really knew myself until this moment.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:02 PM
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586

For the past few days I have had a word on the tip of my tongue. Just now I recalled what it was: badgering. Yay, old brain.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:03 PM
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587

Or this, which nobody has ever linked to before.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:04 PM
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588

What's a badge ring?


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:05 PM
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589

587: It's really hard to click on the button, but trust me it's worth it when you do.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:06 PM
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590

577: What did I say that made you think I was a Republican?

The comment linked in 580, I suppose, and the fact that I entertain the possibility that people really are Republicans. Here's what it is: it kind of upsets me if you're going to vote for Romney. I want to know why. But you seem to be kidding, so it's moot, I gather.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:10 PM
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591

One ring to badge them all!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:10 PM
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592

587. I had trouble clicking on that button, so I just clicked on the Donate button instead.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:10 PM
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593

I think honey is involved somehow.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:12 PM
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594

Here Comes Honey Badge Ring!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:15 PM
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595

Speaking of internet jokes people might not yet be aware of, Chewbacca Ate My Balls is still going.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:15 PM
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596

And now, let's listen as Ella Fitzgerald sings the Cole Porter songbook. 1st up, Night and Day.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:22 PM
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597

That started with a political ad for me.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:24 PM
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598

My FF add-ins keep those nasty YouTube ads out of sight.

I didn't even realize they were there until I saw comments bitching about them.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:26 PM
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599

I just spent a while looking for a Klaus Nomi Cole Porter cover. No dice, sorry.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:30 PM
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600

I have loyalty to Siri because I was driving my friend to the commuter rail station near my hometown (we'd stayed with my parents for a thing) and I took a wrong turn and drew a total blank about how to get there, and we were cutting it close. She pulled out her phone, said "where is the train station?" and we were instantly appropriately guided. It was miraculous and the alternative would have been to pull over and laboriously type, possibly missing the train and RUINING EVERYTHING! (Of course, I don't even have a Siri myself and I haven't yet ruined everything, have I?)


Posted by: ursyne | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 7:57 PM
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601

576- it used to do that to me in meetings, you have to turn off the "activate Siri when you hold it up to your ear" setting. I use it for setting timers or alarms but that's about it.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-17-12 9:41 PM
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