Re: Adventures in grading.

1

Or or children learning?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 1:19 PM
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What's Matthew Yglesisassias doing taking classes at your school?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 1:21 PM
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I think errors like this are often about pronunciation. In that person's accent, those words might be indistinguishable. In NYC, students could not figure out why anyone would distinguish between "than" and "then," which are totally audibly different words where I come from. It does look totally brain-damaged, though.

I was shocked when I exchanged papers with a college classmate I thought was super-smart and saw that he kept writing about what someone "should of done." I assumed he must be joking; no one is that stupid, right? It just never occurred to him that it wasn't "should of."


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 1:44 PM
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In NYC, students could not figure out why anyone would distinguish between "than" and "then," which are totally audibly different words where I come from.

This is me. I get all snobby about all the differentiated vowels we have on the East Coast, but 'than' and 'then' are exactly the same to me, and I have to go back and fix them in writing all the time. (And I have to think consciously about it; I don't see effortless that I've got it wrong, I have to think about which is which.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 1:51 PM
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In my California accent, 'faze' and 'phase' sound exactly alike. So do 'trooper' and 'trouper'.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 1:57 PM
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Regional pronunciation can play a role, but for all intensive purposes, voracious reading has a bigger affect, I think.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 1:57 PM
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6: You mispelled "pronounciation".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 1:59 PM
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Just think of poor Parenthetical, who now has to listen for the difference between "color" and "colour."


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 1:59 PM
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Not to mention "Mary", "merry", and "marry".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:01 PM
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7: I won't apologize for liking nuns.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:01 PM
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I assumed he must be joking; no one is that stupid, right? It just never occurred to him that it wasn't "should of."

Yeouch. I read enough that I wouldn't have done this by college, but both of my (college educated) parents would write this in an email today.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:02 PM
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for all intensive purposes

I assume that was intentional. Searching, I see that called an eggcorn, which seems like a useful phrase for the purpose of this discussion.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:02 PM
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Could this have been a "replace all" screwup?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:03 PM
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"(All I can think is "Learning disorder?" so I feel kind of have bad marveling at the error."


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:06 PM
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9: If I could find it in TFA, I'd make ttaM's "mary, marry, merry" recording my ringtone.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:06 PM
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4: Is that normal for the East Coast? I say them differently.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:06 PM
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6: voracious reading has a bigger affect.

Subtle or unintentional?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:06 PM
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17: Reading subsequent comments. Oops.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:07 PM
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19

Grating is always an adventure.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:11 PM
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12, 17: It's one in the same as far as I'm concerned.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:12 PM
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15: Perhaps we should get a video of him saying that while exhibiting savate moves, or maybe just while making stabby motions with a knife. You know, for when my dream of 3-D holographic ringtones comes to fruition.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:12 PM
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Sweet!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:13 PM
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"Should of done" is an entirely different quality of error than mistaking "are" and "or". The latter should be cleared up by middle school.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:15 PM
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...and I wouldn't bat an eye at a first year college student doing the former, although I'd correct them.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:15 PM
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For that matter, I think I actually do say "should of" and not "should have".


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:16 PM
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24: It's "bat an aye", heebie. It refers to Navy disciplinary practices.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:17 PM
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23 hits the preverbal nail on the head.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:18 PM
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27: apostropher had a blog???


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:19 PM
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24, 25: They're phonetically indistinguishable to me. "Should of" shows up very obviously in writing, but I can't imagine noticing it in speech (which is where the error comes from, I assume -- people mistranscribing "should've".)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:22 PM
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The thing is, how things are spelled makes a big differences to me aurally. If I find out that Kristin's name is actually Christyn, I feel like I've got to drastically re-categorize her name. So I am really attaching a spelling in my head to whether I say "should of" or "should have". I think I do the former, but I've over-talked it past recognition so I really have no clue.

All that and I'm actually not a very good speller at all.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:24 PM
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28: It was while you were in China.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:24 PM
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The internet is failing me, I can't find anything about where than and then are or aren't pronounced the same. I'm pretty sure I say them the same.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:28 PM
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If I find out that Kristin's name is actually Christyn, I feel like I've got to drastically re-categorize her name.

It's not that big of a deal. Just some warrants out for her make it better to have it spelled a little differently than when she was in Stillwater.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:29 PM
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What's actually wrong with ''should of''? It doesn't cause confusion, it's easy to understand, and makes as much sense as any part of the english language.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:29 PM
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It doesn't cause confusion, it's easy to understand, and makes as much sense as any part of the english language

and doggone people like it!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:33 PM
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Then and than sound different to me. I try to pronounce them differently. I'm sure I speak for all of California in this.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:34 PM
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"Should of done" is an entirely different quality of error than mistaking "are" and "or". The latter should be cleared up by middle school.

And the former shouldn't? I can see it (and sometimes do it) as a
one-off, but systematically from a college student it would produce basically the same response as a "are" for "or" .


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:34 PM
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Darn tootin!


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:34 PM
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39

What's actually wrong with ''should of''?

'Of' isn't a verb.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:35 PM
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I should of bin a contender.


Posted by: marlin brandough | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:36 PM
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'Of' isn't a verb.

But it wants to be.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:37 PM
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39: And?


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:37 PM
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Not a verb either.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:38 PM
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44

36: Of course, for Californians, the "m" in "m-fun" is silent.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:38 PM
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I have a certain amount of sympathy for Keir. In context, 'of' and 'have' both seem like semantically bleached grammatical particles, the sort of thing that isn't required to make sense. "Should of" is wrong because it originates in a mishearing of "Should've", and "of" doesn't function as auxiliary verb anywhere else but where it's been substituted in for " 've", but I wouldn't expect someone unsophisticated to have an easy time spotting it as an error.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:39 PM
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Calling Keir unsophisticated is rude and uncalled for, LB.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:41 PM
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The funny thing about than/then is that I don't meld other similar pairs. Pan/pen sound different, so do fan/fen or tan/ten. But 'than' rhymes with 'pen', 'ten', and 'fen'. No idea why.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:42 PM
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The thing that's wrong with "should of" is that it isn't Standard English -- that's all that saying `` "of" isn't a verb'' means --- and I just don't think that's a good enough reason to care.

(But then I wouldnae, would I?)

46 --- Doric, darling, Doric.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:42 PM
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"Should have" and "should of" sound very distinct to my ear, but I often (but not always) shorten the former to "should've" which sounds indistinguishable from "should of."


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:42 PM
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46: I understand Kiwis pride themselves on their simple, unspoiled nature.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:44 PM
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49: Me too -- I think the origin of 'should of' is clearly in 'should've' rather than 'should have'. And I wouldn't expect anyone to object to 'should have' as wrong, even if they thought 'should of' was a correct alternative.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:45 PM
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Along these lines, I never ever mistyped 'thing' for 'think' until I got into an argument about 'you've got another think coming' online. Once I noticed that 'thing' and 'think' were phonetically indistinguishable in that sentence, though, I started typoing it all the time.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:48 PM
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Isn't anyone else excited about the prospect of Holographic Ringtones? At least until we all get jetpacks and flying cars??


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:48 PM
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Than and then seem like they should sound different to me, but I don't know if I say them different.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:50 PM
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Just think of poor Parenthetical, who now has to listen for the difference between "color" and "colour."

Seriously, this leaves me so conflicted. If I use British spellings with an American audience, do I sound as though I'm trying too hard? If I don't convert to British spellings for a British audience, does it seem like I'm not acculturating properly? WHAT DO I DO??????

(The answer, it seems, is to randomly switch between spellings. Oh, and almost never ever remembering to change my spellings on things like realization and defense.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:52 PM
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52: "Thing" is not a typo!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 2:53 PM
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No, no, I mean I typo it all the time, even in sentences where there's no question. I'll type: "I thing pro se litigants are terribly annoying," and then have to go back and change it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:00 PM
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55: The one that always threw me was "practise". For the Brits I worked with "practice" used as a verb didn't code as American, it just looked incorrect, whereas they were very forgiving of me writing "color", "labor", etc.

"Defense" and "offense" occupied some middle ground, with some recognizing the spelling as American and some just thinking I couldn't spell (I'm generally a very good speller of American English).

My pronunciation of "leisure" produced disgust in them, however, and the one time I used the word "popsicle" the whole room fell down laughing.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:01 PM
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Freddie Mercury was not Persian!!!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:02 PM
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Standing up for "thing" in "another thing coming" was the primary impetus for my pseud.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:02 PM
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Realization is probs good Oxford spelling though isn't it?


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:02 PM
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32: The internet is failing me, I can't find anything about where than and then are or aren't pronounced the same.

Not finding either, but in searching I found a new website/map I had not seen before. Ugly as sin*, attempts to be very detailed and has a wealth of information including over 800 linked representative videos/speech excerpts. It appears to be the work of a an enthusiastic amateur so all cautions apply, but I'd say worth a look.

*He tries to show way too much on the same map--in addition to the major dialects and sub-dialects, "pn/pin", "on rhyme with dawn/don" etc.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:03 PM
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How do the Brits pronounce "Popsicle"?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:03 PM
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63: "ice lolly".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:04 PM
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I just attempted to make fun of a Brit friend by making him say 'glacier' at Thanksgiving, but he's been here too long (over a decade), and he said it American-style, spoiling my fun.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:05 PM
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"You've got another thing coming" is one of the most stupidly wrong things ever. I can't even handle that argument.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:05 PM
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I just attempted to make fun of a Brit friend by making him say 'glacier'

They call these ice lollies, too?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:06 PM
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I just attempted to make fun of a Brit friend by making him say 'glacier' at Thanksgiving, but he's been here too long (over a decade), and he said it American-style, spoiling my fun.

Try him with the country in North Africa, Chunizzia.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:08 PM
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I always forget that people actually believe it to be "you've got another think coming". Come on, people. No!

"Hone in", of course, remains perfectly cromulent.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:09 PM
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67: They call them "old chap."


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:10 PM
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I thought 64 had to be a joke but apparently it's for real. I seriously can't imagine a non-pedophile adult using the word "ice lolly" so I guess all Britons are pedophiles. Or paedophiles I guess.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:11 PM
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72

I was recently watching the new Doctor Who, and was deeply puzzled when everyone kept calling Queen Victoria "mom".


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:11 PM
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66: Wait, heebie, are you saying you're on Team Think? Say it ain't so!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:12 PM
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74

I'm going to assume 71 is a lie that somehow advances Halford's anti-wheat agenda. No one in history over the age of 5 has ever said the words "ice lolly".


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:13 PM
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71 is a bit close to the bone really.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:13 PM
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61: I dunno anymore. So confused. (And I'm accustomed to being a very good speller, so this is odd for me.)

65: It reliably cracks me up every time my husband says glacier. It comes up more than one would think, or maybe that's just because he lived in Iceland.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:13 PM
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75: oh you're so fired.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:14 PM
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Lots of Brits also thought I was pronouncing the word aluminium incorrectly and had no idea that the proper spelling is aluminum. Idiots.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:15 PM
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74: Bear in mind that this is the same culture [sic] that eats brekky and wears Wellies.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:19 PM
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80

And refers to adults kissing in a sexually charged fashion as 'snogging'.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:20 PM
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"Brekky" just sounds childish whereas "ice lolly" is positively creeptastic. WOULD YOU LIKE AN ICE LOLLY, LITTLE BOY.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:21 PM
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Does "snogging the ice lolly" serve as a euphemism for anything?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:23 PM
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83

82: Voting in a parliamentary election.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:27 PM
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I do want to go on record as being very much in favo(u)r of the term "snogging". The activity itself is very nice too, given the right partner.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:28 PM
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85

"Cuddle" instead of "hug" is deprecated though.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:29 PM
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. . . pronouncing the word aluminium incorrectly

This was a major plot element of an Isaac Asimov story (proving that one secret to being a prolific writer is the willingness to use anything, however slight, as the basis for a story).


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:31 PM
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87

79, 80: and refers to association football as "soccer"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:31 PM
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88

You don't even want to know what the "ice lolly problem" refers to.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:33 PM
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88: desperately poor kids shooting free-throws for popsicles down in the ice lolly baller gully?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:39 PM
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90

83 made me laugh.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:51 PM
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88: In Samoa, drinking from a coconut in an appropriately feminine manner is referred to as 'kissing the eel', for mythological reasons. I'm sure I've mentioned that here before, but I'm going to bring it up whenever it's even vaguely topical.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:54 PM
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92

So in england it would be kissing the ice eel?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:59 PM
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93

5 In my California accent, 'faze' and 'phase' sound exactly alike.

Wait, what? Do these words sound different in some accents? You're blowing my mind.

(Also: New Yorkers don't distinguish "than" and "then"? I never noticed. Bizarre. Of course, I grew up conflating "pin" and "pen", though I don't usually now.)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 3:59 PM
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'Ice lolly' is indeed perfectly normal English here. I don't know what the 'glacier' thing is supposed to refer to, though. How do Americans pronounce it? Is it one of those faux-French things?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:00 PM
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I don't know what the 'glacier' thing is supposed to refer to, though. How do Americans pronounce it? Is it one of those faux-French things?

No, it's one of our uncouth and uncultured pronunciations, where YOU are the ones who are pretentious and full of yourselves.

"Glay-sher".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:02 PM
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British 'glacier' sounds like you're saying 'more glassy'. I'm not sure why this is funny, but trust me, it is. If you ever need to distract a bunch of Americans, construct a sentence with 'aluminium' and 'glacier' in it, and then steal their wallets while they're giggling at you.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:06 PM
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'I would have dallied longer while eating my ice lolly on the glacier, but my aluminium snow shoes were beginning to freeze, and I had an appointment for some snogging.'

[... now, gie's yer wallets.]


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:08 PM
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98

Replace "Snow shoes" with "Wellies", work in a "schedule" or "diary" reference.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:09 PM
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99

Bye bye Ms. imperial pie / took the glacier to the valet but the valet was pished.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:10 PM
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It's spelt brekkie. And only people who would say hubby would use it. Yuck.

Ice lollies, absolutely. Popsicle is just so *shudder* American! If I heard anyone British say popsicle in all seriousness, I would mock them.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:14 PM
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101

fortnightly ice lolly


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:16 PM
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102

I'm perhaps from too far south, but glass-ier doesn't sound like glacier. (Which I momentarily forgot how to say, and had to think of Fox's Glacier Mints.)

(Oh, and momentarily doens't mena in a moment!)


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:17 PM
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103

And hang on, what's funny about diaries?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:18 PM
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104

And yes, that is the correct Estuary English spelling in 102. Ahem.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:18 PM
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The whole "then/than" being pronounced differently is how I avoid accept/except and why it stumbles my reading when someone makes that mistake.

Hick that I am, except is ick-cept and accept is axe-ept.


Posted by: Trumwill | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:21 PM
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That can't be hick, because it's also my NYC dialect. Or, I'd spell it x-ept and axe-ept.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:22 PM
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Yeah, I think I'd say 'glay-see-er', rather than 'glahssy-er', but that'd be a general Scottish English thing, where one would tend to use /e/ or /ei/ rather than /ɑ/.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:23 PM
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108

Is it one of those faux-French things?

Real Americans call it "Freedom ice."


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:25 PM
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109

[aside to ttaM, tierce, etc - glay-sher's funny, isn't it?]

[further aside to ttaM - how's everything? You were quiet for a while and I was about to start worrying and you popped up again. Hope all is well and you were just on holiday or something and not having your skull sliced open.]


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:27 PM
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Oh, huh. 'Glay-see-er' wouldn't be funny at all to me -- identifiably non-American, but not comic. I wonder what the demarcation of the 'more glassy' pronunciation is. Or possibly it's not a standard pronunciation at all, and I just overgeneralized from some British person with a speech impediment.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:27 PM
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no one says glarse-ier, do they?

asilon, ttam and I (and whoever else) are meeting for a pint on Wednesday if you're free?


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:31 PM
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"Ice lolly" sounds like baby talk to these vulgar American ears. Now I suspect you guys really pronounce glacier as "ice mountie".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:31 PM
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113

I've heard both 107 and 96 from British people saying glacier.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:32 PM
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114

An ice mountie in an earthquake is a shivering cwm.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:33 PM
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115

My niece says "potstickle" and I started saying that as a joke and now can't stop myself.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:33 PM
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116

Lollipop and Popsicle also sound like babytalk obviously


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:34 PM
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117

The "then-than" thing surprised me when I first encountered it in New York because my people are the sort who notoriously mix up, say, pin and pen, and don't even get me started on Mary, marry, merry (I really have to concentrate to hear a difference even when someone else says it). But then and than, to me, are such different words I was very suspicious when I started teaching in the city and seeing it in student papers. I tried correcting at first by suggesting they read their work aloud and then they wouldn't make that mistake. They looked at me like I was nuts.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:35 PM
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118

Like I said above, it's not a general merger of the vowel sounds, it's then/than specific (not pan/pen, not tan/ten). I have no explanation for it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:36 PM
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119

No, glace-ee-er is funny.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:37 PM
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120

116: I dunno, I mean -sicle as a suffix for something frozen doesn't seem inherently babytalky. Icicle, meatsicle, cocksicle; it can be perfectly mature-sounding.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:37 PM
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I say glarse and glah-see-er. (I think.)

But I usually call 'ice mounties' ickle cutie fwosty wivers!

Hmm, Wednesday, perhaps actually - a friend from NI is over for 2 nights, but won't be in town until about 10 on Wednesday. I was just thinking that it might be a bit crazy to come to London for 10 (I can't do Thursday, when she will be free from bloody 4pm), but perhaps I could come and see you and then see her ... will ponder.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:38 PM
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ms bill and her family of origin made their own popsicles/ice lollies at home and called them "freezer pops." I thought it was a California thing....


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:43 PM
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123

So which one do New Yorkers say, "then" or "than"?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:44 PM
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124

122: That's now an artificial insemination clinic chain.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:46 PM
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125

There's a nice discussion of than/then here: http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2011/09/than.html?m=1

The key point seems to be that "than" is a bit of a strange word in that it usually appears in its week form and that for most Americans the vowels in then and than both become schwas in that circumstance. It's not so easy to figure out how people would pronounce the strong form of "than" because the situations it appears in are all pretty artificial.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:48 PM
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126

My books are being coy where lollipop comes from, except that it's 18th century and always meant candy or sweets. Lolly maybe from northern English for the tongue (cf also lollardie): slang meanings for lolly include the head and cash, lollies can mean breasts... and "ladies' lollipop" is a 19th century term for, well, hazard a guess, laydeez


Posted by: tierce de lollardie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:53 PM
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I tried correcting at first by suggesting they read their work aloud and then they wouldn't make that mistake. They looked at me like I was nuts.

Maybe they read "out loud."


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:54 PM
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128

A hammersicle is actually an ice ax[e].


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 4:55 PM
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129

You know the difference between a hammersiclist and a hammersiclite?


Posted by: Leon Trotsky | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 5:02 PM
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The British usage that always cracked me up was "scheme.". Politicians would talk about a pension plan as a "pension scheme," and it always sounded so nefarious, like they were trying to swindle you. And since so many of the different savings plans do seem like a way to cheat people out if guaranteed retirement income, it seemed appropriate even if unintentional.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 5:05 PM
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131

129: Neither are good for emergency brain surgery.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 5:08 PM
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132

YOUR FUTURE DREAM IS A SHOPPING SCHEME


Posted by: Opinionated Johnny Rotten | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 5:09 PM
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My books are being coy where lollipop comes from

While I was perfectly familiar with the word "lollipop" as a kid, I mostly remember them being called "suckers". Which seems ridiculously obscene in retrospect.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 5:11 PM
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134

I had a student last year named Kendall, so I called him Kindle all semester. At first it was a joke which no one could hear, and then I couldn't stop.

Not being Southern, I pronounce Kendall and kindle differently.

Also my friend's daughter's middle name is Wren, and until I saw it written for some reason I thought they'd named her Rinn.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 5:53 PM
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135

I think I sometimes articulate "than" with an a, and sometimes garble it like an e, depending on context.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 5:55 PM
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136

Was there ever a conversation about who follows the Northern Cities Vowel Shift? I only just got it into my head what some of the changes actually are.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 5:57 PM
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137

Wait, new Yorkers blur then/than? I thought they housed all indistinguishable speech distinctions.


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 5:58 PM
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138

137: The ones that matter, sure.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:02 PM
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139

From the link in 62, there are some newer prototype chapters of the Atlas of North American English (ANAE) available on the internet. Great maps in chapter 11 on dialects (pdf).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:24 PM
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140

Yup, they both rhyme with 'pen'. I can say 'than' like 'pan', but it's not natural.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:27 PM
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141

Wait, they rhyme with pen pronounced pen, or pronounced pin?


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:32 PM
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136: Check out some of the maps in the link in 139. Basically from mid-upstate NY through to about eastern Iowa. Northern but not southern or central Ohio. Western PA holding out against. Decent recent article in Slate. And as with everything see the Wikipedia article.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:32 PM
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143

An howser Mamanem, anyway?


Posted by: heebie-heebie | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:33 PM
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144

132: I don't pronounce "Antichrist" and "anarchist" to rhyme with each other. Maybe it's a New York thing.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:37 PM
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145

NO FUTURE FOR YOU, BLANDINGS!


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:42 PM
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146

145 me


Posted by: Antichrist | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:47 PM
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147

146: Dammit, Antichrist!


Posted by: Anarchist | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:50 PM
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148

146 IS A LIE!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 6:58 PM
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I grew up in NY, mostly on LI, and I hear and pronounce "than" and "then" differently.

"Should of" annoys me no end.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:02 PM
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I think maybe I pronounce "than" as "then" but had never realized. I never get confused writing them, though. Maybe I will now.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:17 PM
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||
Speaking of shifts, the Presidential margin is up to 4.36M, and because I've continually undershot, I am going to go out on a limb and predict 5M final margin (CA is winding down, but some NY, NJ & PA coming in--mostly urban plus 50K+ margin will come in from Ohio if the fuckers bother to count the provisionals). Will probably be way off; I'm in the mode where you keep getting more toothpaste than you ever imagined out of the tube, but then suddenly it actually is all gone. But it's been great fun. 14 states have certified.
|>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:18 PM
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136: I mean who among the commenters. Thanks, though, the link looks interesting.

151: What's Romney's current percentage? I yearn for it to drop below 47.5%.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:24 PM
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153

152.2: I believe that has already happened, no?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:26 PM
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154

47.43 as of this evening.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:27 PM
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152.1: I'd need someone competent to see if I do. I was raised in what is apparently one of the battle zones on Ohio (although I think within it--people pretty much immediately to the south sounded like fucking goobers) but now live in an area that--although relatively close by--is a strong holdout against it.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:29 PM
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I'm going to guess that any Chicago/Detroit/Cleveland natives do. I forget who all that might be.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:31 PM
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Perhaps this would be a good occasion to trot out my grandfather's favorite joke:
Two businessmen are flying to Hawaii. They argue about the proper pronunciation of the "w" -- should it be "Huh-why-ee" or "Hah-vie-ee"? There's a fellow sitting next to them who looks like he might be from Hawaii, so they ask him: "How do you pronounce 'Hawaii?'" He answers "Hah-viee-ee", much to the chagrin of the fellow arguing for the other pronunciation. "Thank you" smirks the fellow was proven correct. "You're velcome" says the Hawaiian.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:43 PM
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||

A "criminal" known as "the cleaning fairy" has been "terrorizing" my suburb and ones near it.

My thoughts, in order were:

1. Hey, I'd wish someone would do that for my house.

2. If she left a bill and did a good job, I'd pay it.

3. Maybe we should just hire a maid.

|>


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 7:44 PM
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"Kendall" vs. "Kindle" gets a lot of exercise at my workplace and nearby, which is kind of funny. Of course, the store closest to the Kendall subway stop sells Nooks instead.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 11-26-12 8:20 PM
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125: Interesting. I guess they usually are schwas in my speech.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 1:32 AM
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Ice lolly' is indeed perfectly normal English here. I don't know what the 'glacier' thing is supposed to refer to, though. How do Americans pronounce it?

Everything you need to know is in the archives.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 2:31 AM
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And hang on, what's funny about diaries?

To an American, a diary is a notebook you write about your daily life and thoughts and feelings in. It's commonly associated with teenagers and in particular teenage girls. Particularly Anne Frank. It's not a calendar or schedule.

So when you try to arrange something with a Brit and they say "hang on, let me check my diary", it just sounds a little odd, and sometimes comical, particularly if it's in a professional context.

I also seem to remember most people I knew in London, even those with no real need for one, having diaries and checking them even for things as simple as "want to have a pint after work tomorrow?" And if the answer was yes then they'd write that down in the diary. So the word "diary" came up more often than I would have expected, and it also plays into an American stereotype of Brits as very orderly and regimented (although in a different way than the Germans).


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 5:48 AM
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I'd guess most people's 'diary' these days is an app, on their phone. But yeah, the expression would still be used. I didn't really know anyone who used a diary outside of work until a few years ago, and probably scorned those who did, but then friends started having kids and travelling abroad a lot for work, and suddenly it became more of an issue.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 5:52 AM
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The post title reminded me that the words "grading" and "grating" are indistinguishable in my home dialect. I'm sure I was near adulthood before I realized that the machine that makes the road bed flat (a toy version of which was a childhood favorite) was not called a "road grater".


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 6:04 AM
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134, 159: As to "Kendall" and "Kindle," I had to call Apple for computer problem and the dude helping me had a very, very strong Texas accent. He said his name was "Kindle," so I called him Kendall. I was totally baffled a few days later when I got an email from Apple re: "Kindle." Why the fuck was Apple emailing me about a Kindle? Oh.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 6:08 AM
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164: Me also.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 6:12 AM
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162: You were in London, M/tch?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 6:15 AM
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167: Hold on, let me check my diary.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 7:19 AM
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164: I think that's common across American English. Intervocalically, t's and d's both become flapping r (like Spanish single r).


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 7:59 AM
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Probably. I was raised half a continent from where KR was.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:06 AM
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||
Considering the relative pain and difficulty involved, I wish they had skipped the blood tests and gone straight to the appendectomy. Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but still, I get really, really dizzy after having my blood drawn, whereas the surgery was last night and at this point it looks like I might be home by noon.
|>


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:24 AM
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at this point it looks like I might be home by noon.

Hooray!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:29 AM
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171: Glad you'll be getting out quickly.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:30 AM
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171: Yow. Was it the classic sudden sharp pain in your right side situation?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:34 AM
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I can never remember which side means you need to get your appendix out. Are you sure it is the right?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:38 AM
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Heart attack left, appendix right.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:40 AM
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Right in the middle, COPD.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:42 AM
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Mnemonic: Leftists have hearts, right-wingers are appendages with no known useful function.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:42 AM
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re: 169

It's a miracle you lot can understand each other at all, with your one vowel, and your half a dozen consonants ...


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:43 AM
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178: I thought right-wingers served as a repository for bacteria that could be useful if you live someplace without government services like safe drinking water?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:44 AM
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180: Relevant. "Enclaves, Long Gated, Seek to Let In Storm Aid"


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:49 AM
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178, 180: Useful in some distant past, considered harmful in the present.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:53 AM
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Yes, ut was in the right. Wasn't that sharp, I barely felt anything when I wasn't moving, but it was unpleasant enough that I did something about it within an hour, FWIW.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:55 AM
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179: What's that?

It's a marigold-lox canon, Andouille chowder, a tall wizard on vellum, and a Hefeweizen consequence?


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 8:56 AM
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"Enclaves, Long Gated, Seek to Let In Storm Aid"

Gah!. NYT headline style drives me round the bend. Commas are not a virtue! Why not word it as "Long gated enclaves seek to let in storm aid"?



Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 10:20 AM
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Because 185 doesn't make sense.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 10:26 AM
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The communities are "long gaited" communities for tall people.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 10:28 AM
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186: (here in illiterate america, where far too many people would put in a hyphen between "long" and "gated")


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 10:30 AM
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Why not just "Gated enclaves seek to let in storm aid"? "Long" adds more detail to the headline than is really necessary in this headline context; save it for the story. It's not like the gates were closed for decades such that no one got in or out.

"Building, long closed via locked door, seeks to let in firefighters"

Headline writing is tough, though. I spent a week filling in for someone writing headlines and I don't think I'd want that to be my job.

(Yeah, that's right, I just commented on two active threads in an inactive thread.)


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 12:34 PM
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Lawn gaited enclaves on lawn guyland


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-27-12 12:36 PM
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Why not just "Gated enclaves seek to let in storm aid"? "Long" adds more detail to the headline than is really necessary in this headline context;

Indeed. I was just trying to preserve the words used while making the structure less infuriatingly NY Timesy.

Headline writing is tough, though. I spent a week filling in for someone writing headlines and I don't think I'd want that to be my job.

Absolutely - I have enormous respect for people who are good at it. My beef is with the NYT's style, not the writer. This sort of headline is endemic at the paper.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 11-28-12 6:39 AM
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Claves, elongated. "Leek," Mort said.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 11-28-12 6:43 AM
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<Seek>
  <Storm aid />
  <let in>
   <Enclaves>
    <Gated>
     <Long />
    </Gated>
   </Enclaves>
  </let in>
</Seek>


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 11-28-12 7:24 AM
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