I remember being so angry and disoriented by this sort of reaction when I was a teenager; feeling as if I couldn't present myself appealingly at all without putting myself in that category of not really being a person any more.

YES.

My daughter (14) brought me this Onion article; it drove her to tears. "Oh, Onion," she said, "why you gotta be that way?"

So yes, exactly.

It's a bit socially rude for a teenage girl to be a person. Not the end of the world, but you know why not put in th effort.

I remember as a teenager being jealous of girls for this kind of thing. It seemed that they had the option of either looking and acting like a normal person, or getting all dolled up and developing special abilities to manipulate people's emotions and subconscious feelings. And as LB herself testifies, not-particularly-femme girls also had this power, not just the belles of the balls. It seemed that as a boy the only way you could manipulate people that way was with your words, which was only open to super extroverts and sociopaths.

But it turns out, things weren't that simple.

2 is poignant.

The Young Girl as Commodity

feeling as if I couldn't present myself appealingly at all without putting myself in that category of not really being a person any more.

"The Young-Girl is not worried so much about possessing the equivalent of what she's worth on the desire market as she is about ensuring herself of her value, which she wants to know with certainty and precision"

With the Young-Girl, it's not just that the commodity is taking over human subjectivity, but above all human subjectivity that's revealing itself as the internalization of the commodity.

The commodity is the materialization of a relationship, and the Young-Girl is its incarnation.

The Young-Girl is today the commodity the most in demand: the human commodity.

This one's good:

The Young-Girl never allows herself to be possessed as a Young-Girl in the same way as the commodity never lets itself be possessed as a commodity, but only as a thing.

What is the difference between a commodity and an object?

4 is really interesting. I went to an all-girl school where no one put any effort into anything beyond putting her uniform on in the morning, but there was a definite gap between those of us who left at the end of the day looking the same way and those who brought makeup/hair stuff/change of clothes to change their look in the bathroom before going out to see boyfriends. The bathrooms were big and there'd be people changing for after-school sports and other activities around the perimeter and then those putting on femininity crowded along the mirrors.

getting all dolled up and developing special abilities to manipulate people's emotions and subconscious feelings.

Mmm. Manipulating them into being full of shit. I'm having flashbacks to a party in high school where I was, in fact, dolled fairly maximally up in an 80's kind of way, and having a long, intense conversation about architecture with a fairly attractive boy from my class who I knew in the way you do in a class of 200, but hadn't ever been particularly friends with. And thinking inarticulately to myself "Fuck you, if you want to have a conversation about architecture, you can talk to someone who looks like a pile of laundry, and for the past five and a half years you haven't been. This isn't a conversation at all." And then I drank about half a pint of gin straight and went off and made out with a boy who I was also not particularly friends with, but who I hadn't been talking to so he hadn't pissed me off. (I do not recommend this as a coping strategy, and hope Sally deals with any issues she develops differently.)

If I didn't also have a bunch of close male friends who didn't give a damn what I looked like (oh, one of them I dated for a while, and I think another had a crush but I wasn't ever quite sure, but we would have been friends if I'd been a brain in a jar), I could have decided that I just kind of despised men generally.

I mean, I can totally see Ned's reaction from the other side, and I can also see how a girl might enjoy that sort of thing rather than finding it enraging. I was just so angry about it.

But did he have interesting things to say about architecture?

Reasonably so. What I was irate about was not so much that he was boring me, but that I no longer had any way of knowing whether I was boring him.

What I remember vividly is roughly parallel to the Nice Guy Syndrome: I had big crushes on boys who were funny and smart and well-liked for being funny and smart, and they had big crushes on girls who were highly conformist and vapid and beautiful.

However, I wasn't perplexed or angry - my take was something like "Well duh, those girls are beautiful. Of course they're the most sought after."

The story in 8 is really something. I will admit that this is an aspect of women's experience that I hadn't ever given much thought to, or at least I'd never understood it enough to empathize or understand the emotional logic of it. Thank you for talking about it.

despised men generally

Are women different? I thought that the conventional wisdom was that women dressed for each other much more than for men, who cannot distinguish one brand of shoes from another. For women, dressing up sends a signal that you're interested; not dressing up sends the opposite.

For men, showing off and strutting is the equivalent role, equally boring to do when it's unnatural, probably equally rewarding.

What I remember vividly is roughly parallel to the Nice Guy Syndrome: I had big crushes on boys who were funny and smart and well-liked for being funny and smart, and they had big crushes on girls who were highly conformist and vapid and beautiful.
However, I wasn't perplexed or angry - my take was something like "Well duh, those girls are beautiful. Of course they're the most sought after."

Alas, me too.

It seemed that they had the option of either...

Yes, of course from over here this manifested not so much as an option as a forced choice. You can either be of interest to the opposite sex or actually interesting. Pick one. Hooray!

I thought that the conventional wisdom was that women dressed for each other much more than for men, who cannot distinguish one brand of shoes from another.

This gets brought up as conventional wisdom fairly often, but I think that as stated, it's wrong. Virtuoso dressing up, where you're putting a lot of skill and thought into precise details, probably impresses other women who are good at that sort of thing more than it impresses men, and women who do that kind of virtuoso dressup, which lots of women do, are going to be harsher critics of other women than men usually are.

But the point of the endeavor is still the male audience; while you might be wearing Jimmy Choo heels rather than a grossly similar shoe that costs a tenth the price to impress other women, you're wearing heels at all rather than Chuck Taylors to impress men.

I think a more accurate statement is that women who really enjoy fashion and clothes often automatically make basic choices compatible with a male audience, and then spend a whole lot of time and effort on details that will only be noticed by other people who really enjoy fashion and clothes.

11:Young Girl as Technique of the Self

"Whatever extent her narcissism reaches to, the Young-Girl doesn't love herself, what she loves is "her" image, that is, something that's not just foreign and external, but which, in the full sense of the term, possesses her. And the Young-Girl lives beneath the tyranny of this ungrateful master."

13:Are you serious? I learned before puberty how fun it was to not provide woman their desired reflection. Because I didn't want to be a fucking mirror. See 11.

I was a fan of the pile of laundry look as a teenager (and still am to some extent) but I'm a weirdo. Maybe it had to do with dressed down girls being less intimidating, but there was definitely a sense that making a connection with someone was easier if they hadn't put much effort into maintaining an image.

Although, certainly, dressing up didn't just get male attention, it also got invitations into certain groups of women. I have another "Reactions to my getting dolled up that pissed me off" story, where I randomly showed up for school in something that could be described as an outfit, and unexpectedly found myself in a conversation with a bunch of girls who generally didn't speak to me. I didn't have anything against them, it wasn't the kind of school where being excluded by the popular kids was traumatic or difficult, but we really didn't have overlapping social groups until the day I walked into school in a short skirt with tights and shoes that matched my sweater, at which point I became an interesting human being.

This left me absolutely committed to not wearing anything that would make people react to me like that.

It is surprising how capable the alt/goth cliches of the mid 90s* still are of eliciting a positive reaction from me.

* I know that there was gothness in the 80s, thanks

16 could be written by a male Brony or dweeb.

17. Why do you think that it's wrong? Fashion certainly consumes a lot of money and attention, more since women have become economically independent rather than less. This is true both in egalitarian countries and in deeply sexist ones.

It's true that educated, left-leaning powerful women in the US opt out of dressing up pretty often, but that's just one culture.

16 could be written by a male Brony or dweeb.

OK.

Why do you think that it's wrong?

Lived experience, and a firm grasp of the obvious.

Nothing personal.

you're wearing heels at all rather than Chuck Taylors to impress men.

I am always amazed when males (of which I am one) tell me that this sort of thing matters, but I have been told this. I suppose my surprise at this is probably a Pauline Kael thing.

I was a fan of the pile of laundry look

I have a lizard-brain (positive) response to blue jeans and baggy sweatshirts that's probably a holdover from college when that combo was ubiquitous.

17:What is a woman looking at when she is studying "the gaze?" Not a real individual guy, "the gaze" is a social phenomenon.

An undervaluation?

PS:I tried, but Baudrillard undiluted makes me laugh out loud. I need mixers.

12 reminded me of something that I think is true, but which I seldom see explicitly discussed. There's a certain small number of girls who are the ones that most boys have crushes on. Nonetheless there are lots of boys who find that type not at all interesting (myself included). However, I think the upshot of that is that the remaining boys all have crushes on a second equally small subset of girls, who are more MPDG than Plastics.

While I always appreciate reminders that Guys Have It Tough Too, Ladies, I appreciate opportunities to be snide or pedantic even more: aren't all Bronies male?

Fashion certainly consumes a lot of money and attention, more since women have become economically independent rather than less.

Really??? I mean, it's not as though previous centuries didn't demand a lot of money and attention in that area, at least for non-poor people.

I was too embarrassed to dress femme in high school, because I'd established myself otherwise. So when I went to college, I was determined to start dressing attractively to guys. (And to go to college somewhere where I wouldn't know anyone from high school.)

In some ways it worked great: I started to get lots of positive attention for being attractive. In other ways it was a total mindfuck: it cemented the idea in my mind that what was worthwhile about me was presenting myself as attractive. I believed the truism that women were something to be tolerated unless they could package themselves as sufficiently hot. It was totally that "aim to be that hot girl who gets along with the boys and can't fathom those crazy girls!" misogyny, if that makes sense.

Then I unpacked it all in therapy and found my way to feminism rather late in the game. Not till my mid-twenties. Then I was much happier.

My children have referred to female Bronies -- I think with the sense that the archetypical Brony is a man, but that any adult with an inexplicable interest in My Little Pony is essentially a Brony.

I am always amazed when males (of which I am one) tell me that this sort of thing matters

I have been repeatedly mocked for not actually noticing that my girlfriend had switched from heels to no-heels or vice versa until she pointed it out to me, at which point I would generally say something unhelpful like "yes I thought you looked slightly taller/shorter".

"We've replaced ajay's girlfriend with Folger's Crystals. Let's see what he thinks."

Frankly what couldn't be written by a brony? Those guys will say anything.

From my perspective in these conversations it's often hard to tease out what's the specific burden for women of horrible sexism and what's just a consequence of the usual adolescent one foot into scary adult sexuality/one foot back into childhood, awkwardly trying on new personas with deep insecurities about who you are, etc. There's definitely a straight guy variant of LB's conversation in 8 (why are you talking to me? Are you sincerely interested in me or something else?) but the specific dynamics are different and probably way less intense because sexism.

28. Me too, but I suspect it's a side effect of my apparently genetically programmed hostility to advertising. If I see a really slick advertising campaign, I'll try to avoid buying the product under any circumstances; likewise in my youth if I met two girls, one done out to the nines and the other not, I'd instinctively pay attention to the one in jeans and worn out trainers.

34: I looked into this at some point last year. Brony is sometimes used in a gender-neutral way, and Pegasister is sometimes used as the female version of Brony. However, since Brony does suggest male (much as say "man" does), and since Pegasister is not well-known, there's really no good usage.

I thought that the conventional wisdom was that women dressed for each other much more than for men

Ugh, I hate this conventional b.s. LB gets it right.

33: I maintained my non-look through college, had very little choice about what I wore in the Peace Corps (and was mostly out of the sexualized interaction game there), and then eased into dressing more conventionally when I got back to the US. Part of that is that I've been involved with Buck since about fifteen minutes after I got home, which made dressing appealingly much less fraught, somehow -- anyone who became full of shit around me because I was looking good wasn't my problem, because I didn't want anything from them.

My first wife ("the practice wife") was actually above-average fashion conscious, and it used to annoy her that I didn't appreciate this.

My wife, on the other hand, is below-average fashion conscious, but watches America's Next Top Model with our daughter. I find this vexing.

I think that status is really imoprtant to most people, and having a popular and desirable partner is an easy demonstration of status-- true for men and women both. IMO many people are more interested in status than in interpersonal happiness, or don't see a distinction between these things. That common mindset, or some observation about the details that matter in that case, is unlikely to show up in comments here.

31. touche-- I met my first actual one a couple of weeks ago, a friend's son. He explained it as a fan-fiction thing, which actually was a clear and understandable perspective. So it seems a little odd, but I don't feel sardonic about it any more.

I was a fan of the pile of laundry look as a teenager

Yeah. My 27 wasn't an assertion of moral superiority, just aesthetic preference.

It's true that educated, left-leaning powerful women in the US opt out of dressing up pretty often, but that's just one culture.

There are lots of other intersections in the Venn diagram of women/politics/power/clothes/age/location/etc.

I am a fairly girly-girl kind of woman, and I like fashion and expensive clothes,* and the side of this (closely related, in fact, to the Attractive Object problem highlighted in the linked Onion piece) where doing these things counts as vapid or disqualifies you from True Geekhood or whatever gets up my nose as much as any of the rest of it.

*Though it's amazing how not-snappy I can sometimes manage to look despite all that.

These conversations really suffer from ogged's absence, and I'm grateful that lw is here to pick up the slack.

20/28/38: Oh sure, you guys thought I was hot. I'm talking about guys that counted.

Didn't ogged write off women for wearing heels or makeup?

Yes, of course from over here this manifested not so much as an option as a forced choice. You can either be of interest to the opposite sex or actually interesting. Pick one. Hooray!

I bought this dichotomy full-on up through the end of college. I didn't care about looks, noooo! I had more important things to think about! Then I moved to Germany and learned at least how to buy clothes that weren't way too big for me.

No, not just for women, but not just for men, which gives the Patriarchy all the power and leaves nothing behind but victims. It amuses me when said that a devotion to appearance and attractiveness is some kind of unwilling submission, a complete abandonment of ego.

Capitalism has its happy winners and its aspirational losers also.

Last one and I go back to "uneven and combined development":

"Today, to not suffer isn't a luxury anymore, it's a right."

Officially, the Young-Girl would have preferred to become some thing that feels rather than some Bloom that suffers.

The Young-Girl pursues plastic perfection in all its forms, notably her own.

1) I loove "plastic [morphing?] perfection in all its forms" tiqqun is poetry.

2) I posted to tiqqun's "Bloom" the other day. Freedom and sanity in this fucked-up Patriarchal Capitalism? You are going to be miserable and ugly. Can you will to be ugly? Why not?

I'm having flashbacks to a party in high school where I was, in fact, dolled fairly maximally up in an 80's kind of way, and having a long, intense conversation about architecture with a fairly attractive boy from my class who I knew in the way you do in a class of 200, but hadn't ever been particularly friends with. And thinking inarticulately to myself "Fuck you, if you want to have a conversation about architecture, you can talk to someone who looks like a pile of laundry, and for the past five and a half years you haven't been. This isn't a conversation at all."

I'm confused. You were upset because he was talking to you about architecture, instead of trying to pick you up? Or confused that he was talking to you at all, after having not talked to you for five years? I'm guessing the latter, but... that seems weird? Maybe he'd wanted to talk to you, and finally worked up the nerve?

One other aspect of this: dressing "dolled up" (if that's the phrase we're using) sends the signal "I would like to be approached about potential romantic possibilities." Dressing like a pile of laundry, not as much. Some women complain about being hit on at inappropriate times; some men react to this by primarily hitting on women who are dressed as if they might like to be hit on by someone. That doesn't necessarily mean they find you unappealing or uninteresting when you're less dolled up.

46: Yeah, I also like (as noted in the recent fashion thread) looking at well-dressed people, and I'd dress better than I do if I'd ever built up the skills for it. None of this is a disapproval of fashion or thoughtful self-presentation, I'm just remembering how angry I got about the reactions it drew.

And I'm being more coherent about how I felt at the time then I was capable of being when it was happening; at the time, I didn't really understand what was going on. I'd just go through this cycle of dressing like a sexless slob, feeling unattractive and as if I was never going to get laid, and then dolling myself up for something and bitterly resenting the attention I got.

Anyhow, the only solution is for teenagers of all sexes to just rock the fuck out. Which I'm given to understand they don't do anymore, probably because IP piracy.

32. I think so. I am thinking about China and Korea; I haven't been to Korea, and only know China superficially.

I guess the perspective of Margaret Cho's mom or somebody equivalent (that is, familiar with both cultures over many decades) would be relevant, but the older Chinese women that I know are very careful about saying what they think.

the side of this (closely related, in fact, to the Attractive Object problem highlighted in the linked Onion piece) where doing these things counts as vapid or disqualifies you from True Geekhood or whatever gets up my nose as much as any of the rest of it

You must love the fashion threads on MeFi.

I assume this and the other recent fashion thread reflect anxiety about the upcoming Unfoggedycon. I remain confident that my cargo shorts and unshaven legs will be accepted by all.

You must love the fashion threads on MeFi.

Whoo boy.

dressing "dolled up" (if that's the phrase we're using) sends the signal "I would like to be approached about potential romantic possibilities." Dressing like a pile of laundry, not as much.

Noooo. No no no. Eiii. No.

50: Me, too, for a host of reasons. I tried on makeup in eighth grade and my dad told me I looked like a whore (tactful, was dad); I didn't have a lot of money for fun clothes; and I was really awkward looking until about age 18, at which point I got braces.

So: dressing down... obviously an adaptive preference because I had Bigger Things To Think About. Now I definitely skew femme, at least by philosophy standards. I don't think I would have liked to have been objectified, but I do regret a bit that I didn't wear all the fun fashions when they would have been age-appropriate.

59: then maybe I'm misunderstanding what LB is talking about.

Hawaiian Punch is really, really into picking out her clothes and designing outfits and picking out her jewelry every day. I think it's super fun, too.

I haven't really figured out how to convey "Hey, dress up and costumes and all that is super fun, but remember - it's just costumes. Even if other people sometimes mistake it for what's important." My age-appropriate version is this:

Hawaii: Mama, don't I look BEAUTIFUL? (She says this a lot.)
Me: Yes, but you know what I really love about you?
Hawaii: What?*
Me: The things you do and the things you say.

* Now it's more like [eyeroll] "The things I do and the things I say. I KNOW, MOM. You love those things. But don't I look beautiful?

I mean, generally. Now I skew sort of lumpy by philosophy standards.

I'd just go through this cycle of dressing like a sexless slob, feeling unattractive and as if I was never going to get laid, and then dolling myself up for something and bitterly resenting the attention I got.

There's some sort of irony in aggressively denying the physical aspect of attraction when what you really more than anything is primarily physical.

(That sounds critical, which I don't mean; I'm just too caffeine-deprived to phrase it more artfully.)

I was really awkward looking until about age 18, at which point I got braces.

Because nobody looks awkward in braces.

Further to 62: I don't actually think the message will be hard to convey. It strikes me as easy-ish just to address it, as it arises.

Even further to 62: Her jewelry from the other day was AMAZING and my favorite ever. I posted pics to FB but I'll get them up in the flickr pool, too.

61: It's crappy to think that you have to meet some particular sartorial guidelines to be eligible to participate in romantic endeavors at all.

65: The implication is, of course, that I spent not just my early adolescence but well into my twenties too ugly to bother with. Protip: schedule all the awkwardness at once.

You were upset because he was talking to you about architecture, instead of trying to pick you up?

I was upset that he was talking to me about architecture as a means of picking me up -- I'd been available as someone to talk to about architecture for years, and we'd never particularly interacted. Which meant that what looked superficially like a conversation about architecture in fact wasn't.

And this kid wasn't history's greatest monster, and really wasn't doing anything wrong. I was just outraged that I'd become a visible human being by dressing up, where I hadn't been before.

68: I read your objection as exactly the opposite: that it's crappy to assume someone is interested in romantic endeavors just because she's dressed up that day.

I think 68 is pretty clearly not what I said.

(Nor is 71.)

Aw hell, I really have to get back to Trotsky, but:

"Like all slaves, the Young-Girl thinks herself to be much more watched than she really is."

70.2:Caliban looked into the mirror, and saw Ariel, and just knew it lied. Just knew it.

Is "dressing up" being used here as a euphemism for "showing skin/cleavage"? Because if not, I don't understand.

There's definitely a straight guy variant of LB's conversation in 8 (why are you talking to me? Are you sincerely interested in me or something else?) but the specific dynamics are different and probably way less intense because sexism.

I know you qualify this with the second half of the sentence, but even so--seriously? I mean, maybe Halford looked he could have been in a boyband when he was young, but I certainly never experienced anything remotely like 8. If anything, I actually had--and still do--a bit of trouble believing anyone would have anything to do for any reasons except my fascinating conversational abilities.

75 to 62.

12: I can't really throw too many stones at the Nice Guys of OkCupid, as I think I had a rough case of...maybe Smart Guy Syndrome ("Why is everyone after gym bunnies?! I can read Old Church Slavonic!") during The Long Dry Spell of my four years in Chicago. Like the Nice Guys, I was blaming my failures on a lot of the wrong things.

I think I had a somewhat different experience from most of the women talking here so far in that I was actively hoping the guys I interacted with wouldn't be interested in me, but thought the only ethical way to go about that was by just being friendly and polite and treating them as people but rebuffing anything that verged on the romantic. But then if I had a dollar for every time I heard, "I've never been able to talk to a girl like this before!" and then I had to somehow extricate myself while still trying to be polite, I too could be funding scholarships for commenters. I always felt like a horrible person and would get sick to my stomach about it, but I don't know what I could have done better or differently that didn't involve outing myself constantly to near-strangers at a time when I didn't feel ready to do so.

I was upset that he was talking to me about architecture as a means of picking me up -- I'd been available as someone to talk to about architecture for years, and we'd never particularly interacted. Which meant that what looked superficially like a conversation about architecture in fact wasn't.

Still confused... so you would have been less upset (not upset?) if he had just more straightforwardly said you looked great and tried to pick you up, with no silly small talk about architecture?

There's some sort of irony in aggressively denying the physical aspect of attraction when what you really more than anything is primarily physical.

Indeed. The reaction I was having was totally counterproductive, if I ever wanted a date.

But I wasn't exactly denying the physical aspect of attraction, so much. A reaction I would have been delighted by would have been someone I'd been friendly with in my pile-of-laundry persona doing a double-take when I dressed up and starting to hit on me (for tasteful, circumstantially appropriate values of 'hit on'). What was enraging me was people being friendlier, not more attracted, when I acted/dressed sexier.

This left me absolutely committed to not wearing anything that would make people react to me like that.

I've mentioned this before, but in HS I realized, at some point, that I had no idea how to make sense of HS social dynamics so I just didn't bother. Relevant to this thread I made a conscious decision that I wasn't going to make an effort to date in HS, because I just didn't see that as being within my skill set, and so I didn't.

In some ways it was a really good choice, I avoided a lot of the classic adolescent drama, but there are times when I think that might not have been the best reaction.

80: Pretty much.

LB, why do you think it is that put-together women tend to shun pile-of-laundry women? Do you think they think we are hostile to them, or do they just think we are weird and clueless, not even knowing how to dress properly and whatnot?

(I realize this is probably the least important issue here, but it's the only one that actually causes me any social anxiety anymore, since I have been married to a pile-of-laundry-loving-dude lo these many years.)

What was enraging me was people being friendlier, not more attracted, when I acted/dressed sexier.

Ah, now I get it.

"You're not interested in architecture?"
"No."
"Look, we're going to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation."

Admit it, LB, you were just disappointed that he'd talked about architecture for a full five minutes, and not once did he mention the name "Howard Roark."

Then I moved to Germany and learned at least how to buy clothes that weren't way too big for me.

It's funny that "buy things that fit" absolutely didn't occur to me until I was told. Lots of baggy sweaters! Then I started watching What Not to Wear and mentioned to a friend in grad school that I thought it was hilarious and said, not really thinking about it "someone should do that for me!" to which he said with great sincerity, "I have been hoping you would ask!" and then he told me some very basic things like stop buy clothes that don't fit. This is all a funny story to me instead of a sad one I assume because I am a dude and didn't go through some of the above stuff.

(I'm still nobody's idea of a snappy dresser, but I think I'm no longer, let's say, a violation of Halford's social contract. And 40 is coming up and frankly I'm not sure it's dignified to dress too well after 40.)

84: Tribal markers can be pretty arbitrary. We tend to look more favorably upon people who are "one of us."

I'm hoping to skip the dressing like an adult thing entirely and go right to sweatpants and tracksuits.

Nora Ephron had a great line: "When I was young, I read The Fountainhead and wanted to move to New York and meet a redheaded architect who would rape me. Then I gave up on that and just wanted to meet a redheaded architect. Then I just wanted to meet an architect."

84: I'm not sure. I would say that it's not a general rule that the dressy scorn the rest of us -- I was unusually badly dressed among my female friends (who ran punky femme, but generally dressed for effect in a way that I wasn't) but wasn't excluded by them for it, although I was sighed over a bit.

I'm not sure it's dignified to dress too well after 40.

<facepalm>

No, no, no, . . . you've got it all wrong. The older you get, the snazzier you're allowed to dress.

91: Doesn't it go on, "And then I met an architect. And then I just wanted him to shut up" ?

No offence, JRoth!

The reaction I was having was totally counterproductive, if I ever wanted a date.

I dunno, this would seem to indicate otherwise.

You can go to the Super Bowl party wearing purple and black, or you can go wearing red and gold, or you can go wearing green and white: people are going to draw inferences about the direction and intensity of your interest. Dressing for membership in any subculture does that, especially when it's a departure from one's normal appearance.

I think the CW on women dressing for women (including themselves) derives, at least in part, from the observation that much more effort is spent on things to which your conventional man is utterly indifferent, as opposed to things a conventional man might find noteworthy. I know, for example, that women have feet. But if I notice a woman's shoes, something has gone horribly wrong. That's not to say that a woman hoping to be attractive to someone with utterly conventional tastes can or should go barefoot(out of context), but just that the range of possibilities is very wide. And, in my case (and ajays as well, apparently) includes flats and heels as fully equivalent.

And, in my case (and ajays as well, apparently) includes flats and heels as fully equivalent.

Or one of each. I like to see a woman leaving 10 degrees to one side or the other.

leaving s/b leaning.

Or effortlessly standing erect while sideways on a steep slope.

I like to see a woman leaving

Moby is an ass man.

I thought the supposed attraction of heels was less in heels qua heels and more in the flexing of calf and glute muscles required to walk around in them.

100. I thou8ght that he was white.

I know, for example, that women have feet.

Whoa, let's not leap to conclusions here.

Racist.

104 to 102, mostly.

Heels make you walk sexy.

Or effortlessly standing erect while sideways on a steep slope.

Essentially, I like my women like I like my haggis. Spicy, Scottish, and with one leg markedly longer than the other.

Haggis has legs? I've never actually been in the same room with a haggis, and I think I may try and maintain that.

Haggises have legs now? What, they weren't unappetizing enough already?

I thought the supposed attraction of heels was less in heels qua heels and more in the flexing of calf and glute muscles required to walk around in them.

It's pretty tricky to walk without flexing calf and glute muscles, whatever shoes you are wearing.

I don't usually notice shoes, but today I had a class and the teacher was wearing ankle-high boots that fastened with a vertical row of buttons and had a very high heel. Of course, maybe if I look at somebody for 75 minutes, I'll notice their shoes regardless.

108: of course. Haggis is a small animal with three legs, one longer than the other two, so that it can run round the sides of Scottish mountains without falling over.

As long as it's sconsie.

Most women* look like they are struggling to stay upright when walking in heels. I assume some men like women wearing heels for the same reason wolves target the weakest, most injured caribou.
*The female Unfoggedariat excepted, I'm sure. I first realized this when watching a fashion show with local, professional models.

113: Good point. Spicy, Scottish, sonsie, and with one leg markedly longer than the other.

("Sonsie", a useful word meaning "attractively rounded".)

Tricksy haggises.

Dammit. I never claimed to be able to spell in obscure, barbaric dialects.

113: Not sleekit?

101 -- Yeah, but that's about walking away. While I can imagine enjoying the spectacle of a particular away-walk, it's not really what I'm looking for in an interaction. (Following is going to be too close to see any of that.)

118: I don't know what you're stuffing your haggises with, but if it's sleekit I'm not eating in your restaurant.

109: Haggises have legs now. They didn't used to.

I don't know what you're stuffing your haggises with

If I knew it was going to be that kind of party...

While I can imagine enjoying the spectacle of a particular away-walk, it's not really what I'm looking for in an interaction. (Following is going to be too close to see any of that.)

Yes, "following" is too close. "Stalking" maintains the proper distance for optimal visibility.

I always thought of young women's beauty as more analogous to wealth than power, and a particularly tricky form of wealth at that. Wealth can be converted into power, but that's trickier than you think -- it also makes you a target for predators and con artists and can actually destroy your life by throwing you into situations you aren't ready for. (Witness the occasional stories of miserable lottery winners or bankrupt former pro athlete). And beauty is obviously harder to 'spend' well and more deeply personal than cash money.

Shall I compare thee to a municipal bond?
Thou art more lovely but less fungible.

Haggises have ALWAYS had legs.

they had big crushes on girls who were highly conformist and vapid and beautiful.

I've always thought people were too quick to ascribe conformism/vapidity to beautiful/athletic people. This is part of the nerd resentment syndrome. Think of the poor oppressed 'dumb' blonde!

You see this professionally as an adult too, I work with an extremely smart and tough lawyer who wears makeup and sharp tailored outfits a lot, and heard someone observe basically, 'wow, you wouldn't think someone who dressed like that was smart!'.

76 -- I was being vague and unclear, the straight guy equivalent of LB's story definitely wouldn't specifically be about looks or clothes (are you only talking to me because I'm wearing Axe body spray?) but that the insecurity would be based on something else in the adolescent pantheon of For example, I remember women being much friendlier to me when it emerged that I was pretty good friends with a particular guy. "Do they like me because of me" is a pretty common adolescent emotion for every adolescent, but one that takes on different valences for women because of the whole sex object thing.

More generally, I'd say "guys go for looks, girls go for status" pretty much gets it right, except that the "looks" at issue are really properly understood as a specific form of status.

114: And most drag queens are worse, alas. My mother made me go up and down stairs with a book on my head to practice walking in heels, and I'd already taken kid ballet. (That's only Tech No Code level: Extra class goes up to a bowl of milk on the head and not being allowed to actually touch the handrail.)

I had 8-ish interactions in college and in software. The nastiest one in software was discovering that a lot of my coworkers couldn't tell under-40 women apart if we were dressed as women (some of them couldn't anyway). The other feminists and I played some of the obvious pranks, but it was a bitter amusement.

Way more up my alley -- I think it's completely false that fashion, meaning display through socially-agreed-on clothing and body modification, takes up more disposable money now than ever. I think it's true that the West had a brief egalitarian period starting with WWII, and fashion matters more in our Gilded Age than then. But material is much cheaper than it used to be, and hardly anyone gets clothes that fit, and there's no permanent opprobrium for a single failure of dress, the way there was into the 1960s (in the South, anyway; e.g., bare legs). And if we want to talk about history! Our clothes are SO DAMN BORING AND EASY TO MAKE! Blind me a dozen Belgian nuns for one dress, bring me an egret for my hat, give away to the child of a neighbor this gold gown I was glad in twice! We have 20,000 years of women's work to live up to!

Or not. "There will always be someone smarter and someone prettier than you are, so just be clean and neat, dear."

124 and 127 both seem totally right to me.

I remember being so angry and disoriented by this sort of reaction when I was a teenager; feeling as if I couldn't present myself appealingly at all without putting myself in that category of not really being a person any more.

Wow, was I a late bloomer. I was well into my 30s before I ever had this experience.

The nastiest one in software was discovering that a lot of my coworkers couldn't tell under-40 women apart if we were dressed as women (some of them couldn't anyway).

Wow.

I suddenly have a different appreciation for what you might like about The Bug.

"There will always be someone smarter and someone prettier than you are, so just be clean and neat, dear."

That's what the mirror on the walls says in my new version of Snow White. I don't like the part where the girl gets abandoned in the woods.

I always thought of young women's beauty as more analogous to wealth

"In economic terms, you are a wasting asset."

More generally, I'd say "guys go for looks, girls go for status" pretty much gets it right.

I didn't figure you for a Hold Steady fan, Halford. (I actually hate that song, sigh.)

I've always thought people were too quick to ascribe conformism/vapidity to beautiful/athletic people.

This is certainly true -- and part of the weird depressing dynamic of high school involved everyone's reactions to these expectations, both in the way people judged "pretty" often seemed to feel compelled to behave and in the strange-in-retrospect community judgments of who did and didn't count as good looking.

In my case, I didn't in fact even at the time think the canonically accepted as pretty girls who got the smart-crush attention were vapid or dumb, though they did tend to comport themselves in a fairly conformist manner. They were, in fact, smart and interesting. But it didn't work out that way. The pursued girls wound up feeling condescended to and under-appreciated as people, the smart-crush guys wound up feeling bored (partly because their idea of these objects of their desire incorporated some notion that they surely couldn't actually be all that smart or interesting, even when they were), it was all very poorly functioning.

But of course people are often poorly functioning at this stuff in general. My heartstoppingly gorgeous and very very smart friend S. to this day seems to feel compelled to date people who are a certain kind of handsome and social-butterfly-ish and thus in some way properly in her league, even though they never make her happy, and she patently prefers actually hanging out with brainy weirdos like herself.

When I was born
They looked at me and said
What a good boy
What a smart boy
What a strong boy

And when you were born
They looked at you and said
What a good girl
What a smart girl
What a pretty girl

Say what you like about Barenaked Ladies, I've always liked that expression of gender dichotomy.

46 makes an important point. Was mid-way through typing something grumpy, without reading the whole thread, and then stopped as 46 had already said it.

Despite personally looking like a pile of lard in a sack, I'm much more temperamentally inclined towards the dressing-up-and-showing-off side of the spectrum.

I always thought of young women's beauty as more analogous to wealth than power

There's this famous quote from Joan Collins that the problem with beauty is that its like being born rich and getting poorer.

I've had much more depressing conversations about this with women who aren't white, or who are somehow marked as of a poor background -- way, way too many of them report that there's no way to dress that isn't read as either ballbreakingly masculine or soliciting. On a techie women's list, we decided that it would probably be more just to have a standard uniform that was officially What Techies Wore, so that the doubly-marked could reduce their problem to their claim to being techies, not their claim to being respectable women. (FFS.) So, although for otherwise unmarked women, I think the analogy of beauty to wealth is pretty good, I don't think it holds up overall.

I'm much more temperamentally inclined towards the dressing-up-and-showing-off side of the spectrum.

Which, in the UK at least, is quite a common working-class-male thing.

Another perspective on gender dichotomy: Young women are speaking out as to why AR-15 weapons are their weapon of choice.

Haggises have ALWAYS had legs.

Just not in a way that we can understand.

But of course people are often poorly functioning at this stuff in general.

Absolutely, this. Something that drove me absolutely batshit at the time was that while I found the "You ignore me until I'm femmed-up, and then you pretend you think I'm interesting, and we move into a sexualized relationship from there" script enraging, I felt like I knew what the process was, and if I hadn't been so irate I would have been able to negotiate it.

For guys who weren't playing by those rules (and there were plenty of them who I was friends with), I couldn't quite figure out how anything ever got romantic. My one real highschool boyfriend, we bumbled into it somehow based on having been such close friends for long enough that we really didn't have a lot of boundaries, but that didn't translate into having a sense of how to competently negotiate a relationship in the future. But this was my own poor functioning, rather than much I can impute to the boys/men I was drooping around after.

114: And most drag queens are worse, alas.

On reconsideration, I was thinking of Seattle's Capitol Hill in the 1980s/1990s, where approximately no-one knew how to dress up. The SF Pride Parade, oughts and teens, does better, as do many women in SF.

I was grungy when grungy wasn't cool.

The honest truth, at the end of the day, is that all teenage girls should look, talk, and act exactly like this.

139: Joint health is, for most people, like beauty in that respect. They also both depend at least in part of having cartilage in the right place.

quite a common working-class-male thing.

...assuming that I'm interpreting `quite' and `common' correctly...

I was going to say ``In the US too'', grilles, kicks, etc.; but upper-class mens' dress is dressy and showoffy (watches, haircuts constantly maintained, useless shoes, custom suits) we just pretend it doesn't count.

re: 149

I guess. I don't know. I've always thought that working class male dandyism* was more of a British** thing. Upper class dressing has always had an element of that. Savile row tailoring, etc.

* possibly too strong a term, but basically the sort of attention to fashion that you find in lots of youth/music movements, from 'mod' onward.
** or at least not a white-American thing.

Slightly related bleg: I need a pair of not-too-ugly shoes. Said pair of shoes must be comfortable and also suited to a business casual environment. Which is to say, I'll wear these shoes with a sportcoat and decent pair of pants. I'd like them to be black, but brown can probably work as well. If you have ideas, please speak up.

Isn't the plural haggidodes?

151: Put up the Frowner signal!

152: no, haggidim.

||
Just got shitty job-related news. UnfoggeDC3Con is now the only thing I have to look forward to, ever.

(From a rational perspective, the news isn't terribly bad. I'm not getting fired or laid off; things will continue status quo. But circumstances have conspired such that I can't ask for a leave of absence that could lead to a different job and at the very least give me a 2-3 month break from my much hated boss + commute + every other fucking thing I hate here.

But I should really shut the fuck up because I have a job with pay and benefits for which lots of people would put up with a way worse boss. Also, one of the secretaries makes really good brownies.)
|>

151: Fluevog has you covered.

151. VW, Sutro Shoes makes comfortable, pretty shoes that are not too expensive, and just a short drive away from you.

Ugh, I'm sorry, Kraabie. So does this mean a different job is entirely off the table?

155.last: Good by mere mortal standards. Her brownies can't touch M/tch's.

158: The possible other job has evaporated. I'll keep looking, but there are no prospects right now.

137: "What A Good Boy" always struck me as really poignant.

I'm reading what so many of the women here are writing and thinking, "Right on!" but it's still hard to put my own experience into words because it feels as though I experienced so many different sides of this dynamic. At times I was reviled for dressing "like a boy" (baggy jeans, Converse sneakers with Nirvana lyrics written all over, flannel shirts, No Fear shirts, etc), but these same early and mid-teen years I was also aggressively pursued my much older men.

By the time I got to my late teens/early twenties, I had received lessons (literally--I think one of the most erotic experiences of my life was when my belly dance teacher taught me how to apply makeup in the tiny bathroom of her flat) in performing femininity, but for the most part it seemed that even when I bothered with not looking shlubby, very attractive men my age still lumped me in the "loser" category, while very attractive men who were older, and some butch lesbians of various ages, treated me like fresh meat.

155: Boo! I was hoping better things were going to come through for you.

But I should really shut the fuck up because I have a job with pay

That's right. Some women complain about their shoes until they realize, as C Ned has in 103, that some women have no feet.

That sucks, Kraab.

151: My husband now swears by the dressy (more or less) pairs of Sketchers that he buys at Kohls.

I think one of the most erotic experiences of my life was when my belly dance teacher taught me

Such a promising start to a sentence ...

155.last: If nobody complained about jobs because somebody had a worse one, every job would keep getting worse. Sorry to hear about your job-related smackdown.

If nobody complained about jobs because somebody had a worse one, every job would keep getting worse.

Which is more-or-less the history of U.S. jobs in the last 30 years.

161: One possible theory would be that people who have out-of-the-mainstream preferences in terms of what looks they find attractive may be something that most teenagers are unwilling to admit to, while it's something that sketchy adults are not likely to hide.

155: That sucks.

LB, why do you think it is that put-together women tend to shun pile-of-laundry women?

I don't actually agree that put-together women tend to shun pile-of-laundry women, at least outside of high school.

In general, insecure people shun people if they think they won't be accepted by them. It cuts every which way, up or down fashion or socio-economic or regional or whatever lines. When people are feeling comfortable, they tend to be more welcoming to people unlike themselves.

And it's prevalent in high schools only because everyone feels so insecure.

161: pursued my much older men

When you hit a certain age and start getting inklings of your own mortality, the inherent beauty of youth really becomes overwhelming in a way it simply can't be when you're young. Even when they aren't trying, young people are just breathtakingly beautiful. Including most of the ones who aren't conventionally attractive.

That's no excuse for being a skeezy DOM, obviously, but still.

166: "There will always be someone worse off and someone with a shittier job than you have, so just be clean and neat, dear."

And 171 is right as well.

Mmmmph. Mmmmph.

@137

I had no idea that song was by the Barenaked Ladies.

I know it exclusively from one of those musical montages at the end of an episode of Homicide: Life on the Street.

I recently got some Sutro shoes that I like a lot.

As I commented off-blog to someone whose identity I will therefore not reveal, I am the person I know who comes closest to the stereotype of the woman who can't resist buying shoes.

172 is very, very true.

In turn, I agree with 172, even though I don't think I'm old enough to be skeezy. Sheer youth is breathtakingly beautiful. It's faintly heart-breaking to know they see each other through this hyper-stratified lens, when they're all totally beautiful.

I've been a skeezy DOM for about a decade.

re: 151

My wife came home with these [or rather a different black pair, but in a very similar style] for me last week:

http://www.uk.forzieri.com/usa/product_view.asp?l=usa&c=gbr&dept_id=75&sku=me433111-027-00

I tend to like brogue boots:

http://www.grenson.co.uk/en_us/shop/fred-161

or chukka style boots:

http://www.grenson.co.uk/en_us/shop/0007-25742

or a suede derby type style [like the Moreschi above] as they don't look totally shite with jeans, and they are comfortable.

And holy shit those linked Fluevog shoes are fucking horrendous.

'For the discerning orc business person, who wants something to wear to meetings in the Dark Tower, and to the orc-brew-house later.'

Your shoes cost more than everything I'm wearing, including glasses.

180: The habit of precociousness is hard to break.

re: 183

My wife manages a shoe shop.* I don't have the spare cash to buy shoes like that at retail price. I do like them, though. I suspect even if she stops working in retail, I'd probably continue to spend more on shoes than I did before.

* and gets a company allowance to spend on shoes on top of that.

144
For guys who weren't playing by those rules (and there were plenty of them who I was friends with), I couldn't quite figure out how anything ever got romantic.

In my case, it didn't. If a girl was attracted to me before I was 27, she had to be really, really, really blatant about it before I'd notice the signs, correctly interpret them, decide whether it was worth giving up on whichever uninterested just-a-friend I was pining over at the time...

Also, sorry Kraab. Good luck with the next one, whenever that is.

I should buy new shoes but I can't bring myself to spend money on replacing shoes until there is a hole in the sole. The uppers have gotten so much filth on them that there's no way the shoes will ever look decent without me polishing them.

185 gets it almost right. It was less about not noticing than about not having the courage to act.

I couldn't quite figure out how anything ever got romantic

Shared mortal terror helps a lot.

And holy shit those linked Fluevog shoes are fucking horrendous. 'For the discerning orc business person, who wants something to wear to meetings in the Dark Tower, and to the orc-brew-house later.'

A few minutes later, I am still laughing.

Also, Kraabypants, the fuck? Did you not notice that we're talking about shoes here? (Kidding aside, I'm very sorry about that.)

Shared mortal terror helps a lot.

There are no atheistsvirgins in foxholes?

185/7 tell a familiar tale. :(

lw, way upthread:

many people are more interested in status than in interpersonal happiness, or don't see a distinction between these things. That common mindset, or some observation about the details that matter in that case, is unlikely to show up in comments here.

I would say we here are very likely to choose status above interpersonal happiness; we just mostly agree on an intellectualized set of status-markers. Possibly a set of intellectualized status-markers. It's not like we don't mope about our love lives and/or underemployment. (Not that either are personal only: sorry Kraab.)

Go find a shoemender and get your shoes resoled and polished, Moby. Trapnel, you are entirely cute enough to be in a boy band, there's always a role for the wistful one. Just stand up straightish, go outdoors often enough to keep some color in your face, and don't think about yourself while other people are speaking. This advice channeled straight from all my foremothers ever (as is `neat and clean, dear'.) If you don't think it works, walk up and down six flights of stairs with a hardback balanced on your head. If *that* doesn't work, bring the goat into the house.

My shoes can't be resoled. I asked two different guys and apparently it just isn't possible because my shoes are too cheap.

172: I also learned (sometime around age 25, when I got married ::cough::to an older guy::cough::) how to turn off the "I'm super vulnerable! I have daddy issues!" sign that had apparently been blinking on my forehead. So that helped. That, and the Stare of Death/side eye, that are now in my academic conference-attending arsenal.

clew gets it right in every particular.

ttaM, can any of those shoes survive, say, walking a mile home every other day in light rain? USian `men's business dress shoes' really can't, and it's driving my other half nuts. I suggested that he wear sneakers on the commute and keep a nice neutral pair of pumps under his desk, and he offered to wear a floppy neck bow.

|| Seems like some people should get to work, just to be on the safe side.|>

195
I also learned (sometime around age 25, when I got married ::cough::to an older guy::cough::) how to turn off the "I'm super vulnerable! I have daddy issues!" sign

Yeah, that was my guess, and since you mention it I guess I don't have to worry so much about conclusion-jumping. A high school-age girl in a skirt might not actually be that confident, but probably knows she has to act it. A high school-age girl in jeans in a t-shirt might actually be plenty confident, but probably won't act it. Or so I'd imagine.

Just out of curiosity, how much older are the men we're talking about? I'd call a 30-year-old hitting on a 20-year-old skeezy, for example, but it's a very different kind of skeezy than a 60-year-old hitting on a 20-year-old.

Timberland usually has some reasonable looking (if your standards are low) men's dress shoes that are weatherproof with hiking soles. This sort of thing, although there's actually not much on the website.

re: 196

The ones I linked? They are all pretty heavy duty and hard-wearing. They aren't really dress shoes at all. They are fairly heavy leather, and have the sort of soles you'd have seen on work-boots or hiking boots in 'ye olden dayes'. I don't have a pair of Grensons, but I have a near-identical pair [like the brogue ones] from a different brand, same sort of price range. I've done mile after mile after mile in them in pouring rain and mud. They basically still look like new, and I've had them about 18 months.

The pair of Moreschis I have are sold as weather-proof, despite not looking it. You wouldn't want to wade through ankle-deep puddles, but they are fine in rain.

I do have some proper leather soled dress shoes, and I wouldn't choose those for long walks in wet weather, but they aren't meant for that.

Lots of brands do fairly formal looking shoes or boots with a leather soled version, and a harder wearing all-weathers version (e.g. with the same upper but a Dainite sole, or similar).

Timberland also has More Expensive line with some attractive entrants (e.g.).

196: Find him a pair of these.

Thanks, LB, but not as formal as he wants for bank/military/government jobs. Probably everyone at the level he's dressing for is supposed to drive home, but (a) he would rather not and (b) on our one trip to London we were delighted by the dapper men walking briskly outdoors, and maybe they know something about shoes. What they know may well be ``you can get such shoes but they will cost you as much as the car you won't need''. Fair enough.

Moby, if you aren't planning to die soon, you may have discovered the Vimes Theory of Boots. Maybe some nice Timberlands? Ask your shoemenders what they find good value for the money.

I love, love, love that Jammies enjoys debating what to wear, and putting on extravagant outfits, when we go out.

If I am planning to die soon, I've forgotten to put it on my google calendar.

191: Ah, but did you then pine for her after she had sensibly moved on? What fun!

202. Those may be the most horrible man made objects I ever saw.

Josh, you've never worn anything so delightful to the meetups, are you saving it for UDDC?

Useful, ttaM. In black, almost anything you linked would read as pretty formal in the PNW even in a bank. We are a simple people, or possibly incompetent.

I can pine for more women (single or not), and can pine for them longer, than any ten other men.

I can pine for more women...
How faithless you are.

re: 203

They don't have to be madly expensive.

e.g.

http://www.loake.co.uk/loake-shoemakers/toe-cap/805.html

Standard black sort of formal shoes, but with an all-weather sole. Or as a boot:

http://www.loake.co.uk/l1/boot/209.html

Same sort of thing, but 'monks':

http://www.loake.co.uk/fleet.html

I've never owned/worn Loakes, just chose them to illustrate that you can get formal looking shoes with rubber soles.

"The one claim we shall make for our own nosflow is that he loves longest, when all hope is gone."

In my case, it didn't. If a girl was attracted to me before I was 27, she had to be really, really, really blatant about it before I'd notice the signs, correctly interpret them, decide whether it was worth giving up on whichever uninterested just-a-friend I was pining over at the time...

That's about right. Hot girls I suppose get the advantage over normal people of both genders in that they can tell if someone likes them or not.

Hot girls I suppose get the advantage over normal people of both genders in that they can tell if someone likes them or not.

I'm not following. First, the distinction between hot girls and normal people is a little odd, and then it's hard to figure how hot girls know any more than anyone else does. I suppose hot girls are likelier to have men unambiguously coming on to them, but that's not really the same thing.

Pine = soft wood.

Hot girls I suppose get the advantage over normal people of both genders in that they can tell if someone likes them or not.

They get liked for being hot, though, which isn't the same as being liked because someone enjoys hearing what you have to say. Specifically, people often want them to stick around and shut up, which is a giant fuck you.

I'm not saying that being hot doesn't come with privileges, (and I'm definitely not saying that I was personally some mega hot hottie who enjoyed VIP in the club with bub treatment)...I'm just saying it's fraught.

Wow, I find this topic very fraught.

84: LB, why do you think it is that put-together women tend to shun pile-of-laundry women? Do you think they think we are hostile to them, or do they just think we are weird and clueless, not even knowing how to dress properly and whatnot?

There's a lot to be said for the theory of tribalism, per 89 and 170 upthread. I wouldn't have thought much of this if it weren't for a surprising event a few years ago, in which a man I was dating said that he'd gained the impression that I dress as I do as a form of pride, resistance, a statement, a matter of principle. As though I was staking out my tribe. (I was very surprised: No, I thought, I dress as I do because it's comfortable. Long gauzy skirt + flats + fake-suede jacket over camisole is just comfortable.)

That said, I do recognize this:

I'd just go through this cycle of dressing like a sexless slob, feeling unattractive and as if I was never going to get laid, and then dolling myself up for something and bitterly resenting the attention I got.

I mostly dress like a pile of laundry these days (I've had hives, which may now not be hives, for going on two months, so).

But the dolling yourself up thing, just in order to be granted entrance to the conversation? That is a real thing in some circles.

191: Ah, but did you then pine for her after she had sensibly moved on? What fun!

You're really making me believe that the decision to think that dating was just not a realistic possibility was the right choice.

My tendencies are definitely in the 185/206 direction, and I recognize that it's problematic.

people often want them to stick around and shut up, which is a giant fuck you.

Lots of human relationships are like this (stick around an shut up), without malice being necessarily implied. I think it's extremely rare for people to want more than an attentive listener. Much of courtesy is a code for how to be attentive without saying anything.

Hot girls I suppose get the advantage over normal people of both genders in that they can tell if someone likes them or not.

Thirding that they report not knowing if anyone likes them or not. `Trophy girlfriends' are interchangeable, and Heathers are untrustworthy.

how hot girls know any more than anyone else does.

The same way wealthy men do-- through practice at interacting with people who want something.

Lots of human relationships are like this (stick around an shut up), without malice being necessarily implied.

How do you get to the second half from the first? Especially when you follow with a claim that we all want listeners?

220: I think by "likes them", ned meant "wants to have sex with them."

Ned -- You probably feel a little jumped on, but I'm actually interested in what you meant, and really didn't follow it (as opposed to disagreeing with it, which I probably also did some). Can you spell out what it is that you think it's easier for hot girls to figure out?

213: Hot girls I suppose get the advantage over normal people of both genders in that they can tell if someone likes them or not.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. From what I hear from hot girls I've known, they can't tell if someone actually likes them, because everyone likes them.

Man, I haven't kept up with the thread.

and Heathers are untrustworthy.

Don't worry, they'll get theirs...

222. More people want to talk than want to listen, and the rules of courtesy are a way to keep this social tendency hidden from plain view. Narcissism is common, actual malice is rare, and misreading narcissism for a fuck you is IMO a mistake.

228: When you want someone to shut up and listen, you generally care what they think. You often want their validation, approval, etc. That's not the situation that we're describing, where a hot girl's presence is desired qua object.

Either that or you want their obedience, but that's a different situation.

In general, insecure people shun people if they think they won't be accepted by them. It cuts every which way, up or down fashion or socio-economic or regional or whatever lines. When people are feeling comfortable, they tend to be more welcoming to people unlike themselves.

I wonder if it is me putting out alienating "you hate me don't you?" vibes to the put-together women. High school trauma, how it persists! I suppose it's a good thing I don't run into women who look like news anchors very often.

Any chance you're overgeneralizing? Well-dressed women who don't scorn you don't get mentally filed as exceptions, and you lose track of the odds?

I wouldn't say it never happens; I've certainly gotten scruffiness-related eyerolls and subsequent social ignoring, but I don't think it happens all that much.

Random non-lawyer question: for court appearances, how casual can you (you meaning the lawyer) get away with before you start worrying that it might annoy the judge?

230. I think that this is most common, and that an interest in other people's thoughts rather than their behavior is rare. Mutual indifference and shared habits are fine-- watching the same game on TV with the same strangers as last week, for instance, or going to the same church.

and that an interest in other people's thoughts rather than their behavior is rare.

I strongly disagree. People want to control other people's thoughts all the time. It's not enough for the other person to pantomime validation, we want to believe they approve of us.

235. That explains why people are open and honest with each other.

People want to control other people's thoughts all the time.

That's why I line my hats with tin foil.

I never did figure out how I was pissing off/boring/disgusting the last well-put-together woman I got the cold shoulder from. We were around each other for about a month, and by the end I was probably flinching at her like a spooked mule, which can't have been attractive.

I was probably flinching at her like a spooked mule, which can't have been attractive

Depends what you're into.

233: For men, jacket and tie. Not being one, I'm not dead sure about a sport-coat and unmatching dress pants, but I think that would be something to worry about. You can get away with very rumpled and messy-looking without looking out of place in most courtrooms, but it's got to be a suit.

Women, the lines are a little fuzzier. But I wouldn't feel safe in anything without a jacket, and as a bad dresser I play it safe and wear a women's version of a men's suit rather than trying to pull anything tricky with a dress. (Oh, I've got a couple jacket-over-matching-dress suits, but the jacket is still a mannish jacket.)

And the judge probably mostly wouldn't care if you were on fire -- I'm describing how lawyers dress rather than what I've seen a judge react badly to, which is nothing, ever.

I get that 235 is sarcasm, but I don't get what point it's making. People lie to protect each other's feelings all the time, knowing that the other person wants validation or support instead of the truth. Sometimes this is the right thing to do, because the truth is unnecessarily cruel.

233. It depends on the court. LA Superior has a rule on the books about dress, but in actuality I've seen lawyers wearing a wide range of business attire. Usually that means a suit, but not always -- I remember one opposing counsel showed up in a cardigan and a flower-print skirt, and no one seemed to mind.

In federal court, you have to wear a suit -- and for men, a collared shirt and tie -- preferably in dark brown, gray, navy or black. I have a colleague who was called unexpectedly to hearing in district court, and was severely reprimanded by the judge for wearing a shirt with a band collar.

People also lie to hurt each other's feelings. It's usually easier than trying to protect someone's feelings.

She tells me beauty is a curse
I tell her I can think of much worse

Not exactly on point, I just think more people should listen to Franklin Bruno.

I developed overweening confidence very early, overcoming my natural nerdly setbacks enough to attract the attention of the quarterback's girlfriend, though not quite enough to get her to be my girlfriend. (Enough, though, to enrage the quarterback.) From my long-term perspective, this was a moral victory for the men of my tribe, although it occurs to me how all the effort fawning over her would irritate my pile-of-laundry sisters. For her part, she wound up marrying a pretty nerdy guy and having a nice run of acting roles as a TV movie-of-the-week prairie wife.

It sounds like it would be easier to go back to gowns for lawyers and not worry about what they are wearing underneath. You'd need a long gown to hide the thongs.

I'm probably overgeneralizing from the wrong data point; maybe put-togetherness is just one aspect of whatever it is. After I posted my first comment I realized that of course I do have friends who wear makeup more often than not and are snappier dressers than me, but in my mind they don't count because they're not like that. I'm having trouble putting my finger right on what that is, though.

246: Quite a short gown would hide most thongs.

246: Possibly women who are interested in (on of a set of ) hierarchies already, and therefore will sneer whenever they can get away with it, will always be dressed up, to reduce the opportunities others have to sneer at them?

It seems like you're considering interactions among people who are benevolent, well-integrated, and know and like each other. I think that people lie to themselves every bit as much as they lie to each other, and do not like to recognize this. I do not think that it is kindness to other people that causes most human interaction to be very truncated.

It's great when warm relationships come up, but I think that they are atypical, so not a starting basis for me to think about behavior.

151: If you're trying to save yourself a trip to the store, I usually have decent luck for price and fit when ordering Kenneth Cole (and variations) online. Not as special as the good shoes linked above, but totally doable.

My current go-tos are a Cole Haan (no relation, it turns out) slipper boot that's just decent-looking enough, but I got it at Nordstrom's Rack and I can't find it online.

Streetcorner shoe-shine man, pointing at my feet: "How long are you going to ignore THAT?"

It's great when warm relationships come up, but I think that they are atypical, so not a starting basis for me to think about behavior.

Figure how to say that with a rhyme and send it to Hallmark.

249 to 241.

Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong;
And I am Marie of Romania.

247: Maybe we have different standards for gown length, but it seems to me that only an inconveniently long gown would cover one's sandals.

Roses are red. Violets are blue.
Interpersonal warmth is something few can do.

OK, one more.

Je suis comme le roi d'un pays pluvieux,
Riche, mais impuissant, jeune et pourtant très vieux,
Qui, de ses précepteurs méprisant les courbettes,
S'ennuie avec ses chiens comme avec d'autres bêtes.

249: No, people obey the etiquette of protecting the other person's feelings for all kinds of reasons. Often because it's expedient, in the absence of whether or not it's actually a warm relationship.

Why, howdy, farmer! I'm considering settling in these here parts! What are folks here like?

Waaaaaal, I can't rightly think how to say. How would you say folks are back where you came from?

[...]

Ohhhhh, yes, that's how people are around here, too.

Plus-que-Possible, ma poule noire,
Elle pond ses oefs dans le Quand-Provisoire.
Elle ne pond point dans une periode sure
Car l'experience seraite bien trop dure.

For her part, she wound up marrying a pretty nerdy guy and having a nice run of acting roles as a TV movie-of-the-week prairie wife.

I had always thought I would like Madeleine Stowe.

26 years with Brian Benben on their cattle ranch in Fredericksburg.

(Damn. I was going to ask if anyone remembered Brian Benben, and then I see 82 episodes of "Private Practice" to 2013. I am so out of touch.)

Quite a short gown would hide most thongs.

Far be it for me to place lawyers and flip flops in the the same context.

It is odd, I grew up (in Boston) saying thongs and then sometime in my adulthood the preferred term changed to flip flops.

260. One of my favorite childhood books. Borrowed from my father.

262.3 My wife explained to me that thongs means something else to young people these days.

Standpipe's blog has a new post about the multiple clothing items which the word "thong" can refer to.

264: Did you somehow sleep through 1998?

266: I'm not sure. Did something happen that year?

And yet the crowders upon my lawn have no trouble making flippy floppy.

263 -- It's been reprinted, I believe.

parsimon, from a while back; I would guess that as many people think of, say, sweatsuit/sneakers, or jumper/turtleneck/clogs, or jeans/Tshirt, or polyester leisure separates, or Lululemon workout gear, as just comfortable. So there's still a choice of tribe.

As a hemp-undied greenie pointed out a while ago, doubleknit polyester leisure separates are probably the ecologically dominating strategy as they take decades to show wear, can be easliy washed -- even sterilized -- and are technically recyclable without downgrading. Strangely, the hemp-undied tribe is mostly not into them anyway.

250: I used to buy shoes from Kenneth Cole all the time (even though I knew they were just crappy copies of nice shoes). Now, though, I need something significantly more comfortable than that. Or at least more comfortable than the shoes I remember, which didn't even nod in the direction of the kind of comfort that's routine for ecco/born/Clarks. I probably should have said earlier that the shoes in this case will need to provide me, a man with a pronounced limp and a recent history of having undergone spinal surgery (stupid me), with enough support that I can make it through the rigors of giving thirteen talks in ten days, talks that were, of course, scheduled before the aforementioned limp and surgery.

A litter and robot AT-AT bearers?

Also, I went clothes shopping -- an activity that I haven't tried since around the time my first kid was born, so approximately ten years ago -- for a bit this afternoon. Wow, that's a very unpleasant thing to do with one's time. Which is odd, because I remember it being fun to shop, especially at Century 21 and the like. Anyway, having found nothing at all useful today at a couple of local shop(pe)s, I'm afraid that tomorrow I'm going to have to go to the outlets.

There's a smokin' hot professor with prosthetic legs and eyes in one of the volumes of Finder, if you feel like projecting, or whatever that would be. Also a button-cute young woman and a sexy collie and a sarcastic giant dinobird. (My brow, it is low.)

271: too pricey. And given the subject matter of the talks, I'm afraid that native bearers, though very likely* relatively inexpensive, are straight out.

* As I said above, I haven't shopped in a long time, so I can't say for certain.

273: you're suggesting I cut of my own legs? Or perhaps have a professional amputate them for me? I suppose that would solve the problem of needing new shoes.

I'm not suggesting you blind yourself or forbid your students to read your books, either, but it's a good graphic novel. Which you might professionally want to read in paper covers and possibly another town and cover of darkness and anonymity, now that I think about it. Never mind. AT-AT bearers borrowed from the Engineering department? Quadrotors? A camel? A Segway? Much to be considered before giving up on your feet.

Again with the not leaving the house, I have had decent results buying shirts from Charles Tyrwhit and slacks from Bonobos, in both cases waiting for sales.

Bonobos really played a long game on me. I noticed the ads on my FB page three years ago, signed up for an account two years ago, put together an order last year but decided at the last minute they were too expensive, then caught their New Years sale this month and pulled the trigger.

277: what's a good sale at bonobos (which I'd never heard of before now -- sigh)? They're offering me 20% in exchange for my e-mail address, and I wonder if that's about as good as I'm likely to do. Also, thanks!

I held out for 30%, but I was also in the market for wool slacks, which are more expensive. Your timeline may be slightly more compressed than mine.

280: yeah, I don't have the luxury of waiting til their next big sale. Thanks again.

VW, Sutro Shoes makes comfortable, pretty shoes that are not too expensive, and just a short drive away from you.

I hadn't heard of those before. They're hott.

I can also report that ttaM was wearing quite natty shoes at the Boston meetup last spring.

283: true.

282: agreed. But I'm not driving into San Francisco to buy shoes.

282: I also fear that this shoe, which I really like a lot, isn't going to be comfortable enough for me at the moment. And I fear further that the wood sole isn't going to like walking around in Colorado and New Mexico next month, when it's very, very likely to be slushy. Plus, I never know if shoes that color will match what I'll be wearing. I think I'd better stick with some ugly, black shoes from Clarks.

Awesome.

282: agreed. But I'm not driving into San Francisco to buy shoes.

You could come to SF to buy shoes and hang with Josh!

But I'm not driving into San Francisco to buy shoes.

*sob*

Other comments, who reads them?

what about the old "order six pairs, return five" gambit from Zappos? so as to try out different ideas without the agony of IRL shopping? worked for me last time I had a shoe conundrum.....

270 I used to buy shoes from Kenneth Cole all the time (even though I knew they were just crappy copies of nice shoes).

Dammit, VW thinks my shoes are crappy? I guess I'll have to go shopping.

My bigger problem with shoes is I somehow tend to walk more on the outside of the heel than the inside, and the shoes get worn down too fast.

Find somebody with the opposite wear pattern and the same sized feet so you can trade.

You can get harder heel-taps put on the bits you wear, either before or after you become down-at-heel.

Or you can do all the alignment and stretching and proprioception and all. (Observe my enthusiasm.)

Walking backward might also work.

Vw: my dad, a man of honest morals
Had dorsal issues of his own

Um, screw it. This response was going to riff on the first stanza of Onegin but I don't feel like finding a rhyme for morals. My dad had some back problems that resulted in difficulty walking and has long sworn by Rockports which I believe are rather plain looking but they're not sneakers or anything.

293 I wear out the heels of my shoes within a month. Round heel joke here?

I used to have good luck with Rockports, but not recently. The shoe seller told me they got bought by somebody who put the same name on shittier shoes.

||
Augh. I have rearranged most of my life in order to maximize fieldwork and writing, and it's been nearly a month, and instead I am moping, procrastinating, hiding in my room, and being perpetually slightly sick. I can't tell if the last is psychosomatic or just aggravating the rest of it.
|>

198: It was usually a 15-30 year age difference.

It's a running joke (not the funny kind of joke) with my wife that while I'm a heavy sod, I don't wear the outside of shoes out at all. A year in, they usually have some mild wear at the rear of the heel. She has tiny customers who rip the shoes down to stubs in weeks.

299: That kind of effort never worked for me either so I don't have any useful advice.

301: Light wear on your shoes is a sign of walking well, isn't it? You keep saying `lard in a sack' but it doesn't seem consistent.

We aren't supposed to slam and grind our feet into the ground. My parent's boot-camp boots were about the last ones to be leather-soled, they tell me; when sneakers became cheap and common and acceptable, walking carelessly became less painful, and pretty soon recruits in basic had to have softer soles to not cripple themselves. ...This may be an Uphill Both Ways story on their part, or the barefoot-shoe runners are right.

Following your example, Moby, I hang out here, because it's kind of like having friends or being witty.

I've been ABD since 1996. Fair warning.

Yeah.... time for Leechblock set to stun. See you later, 'gators.

re: 303

I'm overweight, by about 30-40lbs. But yeah, I don't scuff my feet, and I don't excessively roll one way or the other, or land with a heavy heel strike. I am light on my feet, like a bad novelists cliché.*

'O'Donnell was light on his feet for a fat guy.'

* I have family members who literally weigh 50% of me, who sound like a herd of elephants tap dancing on a tin plate.

301, 307: oh interesting. I belong to your stereotype, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I've been ABD since 1996. Fair warning.

I knew a guy in that boat. Then someone in his department noticed he was still there and kicked him out. (Ironically, they noticed because he finally got his act together, started writing, and contacted people to lock in his committee or whatever it is you do to get the dissertation blessed.)

301: She has tiny customers who rip the shoes down to stubs in weeks.

I can't imagine how you'd do that. (I haven't followed the thread, so perhaps this was addressed.)

|| Meanwhile, augh, apparently I am not allergic to penicillin after all, and this skin outbreak I have looks like scabies to the allergist, except it can't be scabies because a steroid like prednisone wouldn't alleviate that, yet it has done, briefly. Conclusion: don't know what it is, but at least here's some anti-itch stuff. Still on my mind: scabies? Ew. |>

68

61: It's crappy to think that you have to meet some particular sartorial guidelines to be eligible to participate in romantic endeavors at all.

You don't as long as you are willing to make the first move. If you want to be approached it helps (as urple said) not to look like you are actively trying to be unattractive.

309: I assume I was kicked out long ago.

I am a shoe-wearer-downer, both because I walk like a moose and because I walk a lot. Fortunately, there are cobblers and Vibram for people like me.

(Not to the point of wearing them down to nubs in a couple of weeks. I'm just notably thataway on the spectrum.)

I wonder if my the soles of my shoes aren't lasting longer because of the tendon pain I've been feeling has forced me to pay attention to my stride to do feet-ankle exercises.

You can hear Jammies walking down the hallway, from outside on our porch.

I have a dislike for pounding, stomping, or clattering walkers, but I always thought that was a matter of personal taste.

A woman I'm in the vicinity of lately is a clatterer, when she's in her own home! I think: For heaven's sake, woman, when you've arrived home, don't you want to take your shoes off?

How long do his shoes last?

If you want to be approached it helps (as urple said) not to look like you are actively trying to be unattractive.

This is what I was trying to get at as being problematic. When your everyday look gets interpreted as "actively trying to be unattractive" rather than "not bothering to go through certain paces."

318: Well, we're a family that likes to buy shoes...

and being perpetually slightly sick. I can't tell if the last is psychosomatic

I doubt it. Whatever's going around here lasts for fucking weeks. Sadly I only have a runny nose now and it's amazing. Weeks of headaches, body aches, a cough, a bit of vomiting on one day, etc. I was mostly able to work through it, only calling in once, but I was going through those Costco generic Dayquil gelcaps like candy.

320: Like a fetish or something?

I have a dislike for pounding, stomping, or clattering walkers, but I always thought that was a matter of personal taste.

I'll be sure to stay over here then.

In case it needs to be said, 319 is right.

Some time ago I related the case of a woman in an airport who declared to me that it was amazing that I was (still) attractive while not wearing makeup. I was cordial to her, of course, but it wasn't a happy message.

319: That, and also the corrolary assumption that if you do dress in a manner deemed attractive, it signals you want to be approached.

319

This is what I was trying to get at as being problematic. When your everyday look gets interpreted as "actively trying to be unattractive" rather than "not bothering to go through certain paces."

Well it is a problem for you but the assumption that all women want to be approached is problematic for women who don't want to be approached.

323: I meant a matter of one's own personal taste. I just like quieter ways, but I recognize that it's not an issue for everyone.

If only there were other ways to figure out what women wanted.

325

319: That, and also the corrolary assumption that if you do dress in a manner deemed attractive, it signals you want to be approached.

Well the fact is some women are trying to signal availability or unavailability and it is strange to expect men to just ignore this.

328:

Exactly. Everyone, watch more porn.

329: I'm not expecting men to ignore signals women send that they would like to be approached. But it's strange to expect me to not have a problem with men presuming I (or any woman) am sending such a signal simply because I wore my nice suit today.

331

329: I'm not expecting men to ignore signals women send that they would like to be approached. But it's strange to expect me to not have a problem with men presuming I (or any woman) am sending such a signal simply because I wore my nice suit today.

Well the other thing is if a guy has been wavering about whether to approach a women he is probably more likely to take the plunge on a day he finds her particulary attractive.

307: I found that one of the benefits of more expensive boots was that one could get the heels redone every year or so. Quite obviously a gait problem, as the boot guy can tell from the sole of the shoe exactly how my foot moves.

It was geekily neat to observe the same goofy pronation pattern in my little sister when we went for a hike this year. ("How do you stay balanced?", I ask her. "Same way you do, asshole.") So I come by it honestly.

Clew, I reiterate 321. I was honestly sick for a month and suddenly feeling semi-ok is so liberating and wondeful!

Man, salsa music is loud. Almost loud enough for my loud-music-makes-Natilo-fall-asleep response to kick in. I'd better get home.

parsimon: scabies is just grody and all but merely communicable and can be gotten rid of; not the end of the world. blame the housemate. much better to have scabies than an allergy to penicillin, in fact, since once the superbacteria have reaped the earth a few variant strains of penicillin will likely remain and be of value. so, don't go around taking azithromycin for viral ear infections (if ear infection e'en be present which likely it is not in most cases) and just do whatever you are bidden to get rid of scabies. partial relief from prednisone is consistent with scabies--its anti-inflammatory powers are so strong they will temporarily and partially quell itching and swelling from any source: histamine reaction to allergen; blockage of airways in pneumonia and bronchitis, etc. were it an allergy you would get near-total, drastic relief on that first day, from the highest dose of your prednisone taper.

I'm not a doctor, just a professional sick person who has taken prednisone 12,000 times. [approx]

328 330

Ask the mineshaft? Ok suppose you are a guy and circumstances (say a professional assignment) bring you into temporary close proximity (hours alone together) to a woman and she behaves somewhat flirtatiously (for example finds reasons to touch you) but also repeatedly refers to the man she is dating. What does she want?

213: hot girls have an advantage over normal people of both genders, in that they can tell who likes them or not, because all the people? no, but really, all the straight guys who make any sustained, persistent effort to be near you.

no, rather, you can tell by looking at them. seriously, you can! you could just turn your head around fast to see. they have a look on their face. but no one has ever needed to turn her head fast, not once ever. besides, no one ever fell properly head-over-heels in love with someone without talking to them at all (OK fine, they did, blah. that was foolish. also it was 1880). and in talking to them you (the girl) must to some degree flirt with them, for such is your mode of interaction, or perhaps because you are crazy, or you want to get a response out of someone, and additionally, because crazy. thus you know because you have made sure of it, on purpose, but to no purpose, because you have no interest! then why? v. supra. furthermore, once you have made sure of it, and can see the expression if you desire to turn your head (but better for him if you do not, probably) then you can begin to feel very angry about it (the expression on his face is very enraging, is the thing, as to it being better had you not looked). this is quite unfair. the temperature in the room has already dropped maybe 15 degrees by the time he notices anything and at that point things have gone far awry. the outcomes are path-dependent on the original input of various drugs and alcohol but only a minority are positive.

maybe I should write a primer!

What does she want?

(a) to go home
(b) to get your work together done in an efficient and pleasant manner
(c) a sandwich
(d) revenge
(e) to know what love is
.
.
.

I believe what she really, really wants is a zig a zig ah.

340: As opposed to zoom zoom zoom zoom and boom boom boom.

I believe what she really, really wants is a zig a zig ah.

She's not the only one.

I thought all that she wants is another baby?

No, all she wants is to do is dance.

f) to break free
g) to ride to the ridge where the West commences and gaze at the moon till she loses her senses
h) to ride her bicycle
i) to be like you-oo-ooh
j) to walk like you
k) talk like you do-oo (shoo-be-doo)
l) to go out (when she goes out) on a chariot of fire

m) to be sure, 'cause you know sometimes words have two meanings

n) to be your man (this one will take a little planning and financial outlay)

o) to make a nest for your ten tiny toes
p) to cover every inch of your body in pepper and then sneeze all over you

(a day without a Blackadder quote is like a day without sunshine)

q) to be a billionaire, so, so bad

r) to be the girl with the most cake

If its not too late, Von Wafer, you likely want Allen Edmunds.

My mother made me go up and down stairs with a book on my head to practice walking in heels

!!!!

S) to feel like a million dollar bill.

t) a cure for penis envy.

Let's pretend I did that on purpose.

Is that what you want?

u) A good five cent cigar.

v) To be your dog.

w.) She just wants to be.

x) To destroy passersby.

y) Your skull.

Z)orro!

You guys are a big help.

JBS, if she's finding reasons to touch you, she's almost certainly expressing interest. The only clearer signal is feeding you off of her fork. I would take the references to the guy she's dating as an indication of a no-strings-attached offer with a definite expiration date.

aa) To grow up to be a debaser.

if she's finding reasons to touch you, she's almost certainly expressing interest.

"Sometimes when we touch, the honesty is too much."

363: I think the idea is that none of us know this (hypothetical?) woman, therefore none of us knows what she wants in life, and none of us thinks what she wants is being definitively signaled by things like touching you when she talks or talking about her boyfriend. (Though, unless it's complaining, talking about a significant other does likely signal a lack of interest in initiating any kind of romantic interaction with the person she is telling about her boyfriend.) /standpipe

If a woman is expressing interest in you by conversing with you while touching you and she is talking about a boyfriend, she's straight-up asking you to murder the boyfriend in exchange for sex (on at least six occasions) and a possible long term relationship. What are they teaching kids in school today?

367 before reading 364. But I submit the two taken together illustrate the point that the "signals" described are ambiguous. Also, in a workplace setting, I recommend waiting for less ambiguous signal than "she touched my arm" before making any "moves."

363: James went to the Chelsea Drugstore to get his prescription filled.

bb) You could try reading The Wife of Bath's Tale?

cc) to be sedated?

ab) Or confusing the reference scheme.

364: I am far from an expert on what women want, but I'd be cautious about assuming that implied interest necessarily means conscious desire for something or other. People sometimes find themselves doing stuff that's driven by unconscious desires that are at odds with their conscious wishes, and one way this sort of conflict gets expressed is by sending the kind of mixed signals James is talking about.

It seems to me that the appropriate way to proceed is by creating opportunities for more explicit expressions of interest, like by grabbing a drink after work. Suggesting it is a low-risk expression of implied interest, and it opens the door to the sex grotto escalation on her part if she's really interested.

373 -> 371:
372: ac) to confuse the reference scheme

She probably wants to be groped while listening to an extended rant about how education can't meaningfully affect outcomes because of race.

I would suspect that the appropriate answer to Shearer's conunudrum is The Pet Department's answer to "We have cats the way most other people have mice."

Working link to the Pet Department.

Shearer, are we supposed to understand that you would be interested in exploring what she wants, if she wants something? Or, are you trying to figure out if there's a possibility that she might want something, so that (if so) you can proactively shut it down? Appropriate advice will vary based on your motivations. As has been indicated, her "signals" are ambiguous, so on the information you have at this point, there's no way to know for sure what she wants. But what do you want?

ad)* Jessie's girl?
____
*Fine, Stormcrow.

Working link to the Wife of Bath's Tale.

In my limited experience, women who have been clearly hitting on me and have mentioned a boyfriend, want to hook up but also have a boyfriend.

378 has made my day. "You people are living in a fool's paradise. The animal is obviously a horse with a span of antlers strapped onto his head."

OMG, Thurber's fantastic Middle-Aged Man on the Flying Trapeze is downloadable free.

"The lady bet," said her husband, with dignity, as though he were explaining some important phase of industry to a newly hired clerk, "the lady bet that my eyes would shine like a cat's do at night, if she came upon me suddenly close to the ground alongside the road. We had passed a cat, whose eyes gleamed. We had passed several persons, whose eyes did not gleam "

"Simply because they were above the light and not under it," said the lady. "A man's eyes would gleam like a cat's if people were ordinarily caught by headlights at the same angle as cats are." The cop walked over to where he had left his motorcycle, picked it up, kicked the stand out, and wheeled it back.

To 363, simply apply the same tactful attention to others and mastery of ambiguity so often deployed here, and all will go well. Maybe choose an understated cologne-- there's a European brand, Lynx, that you might be able to special-order.

384.2: lw, shh... if we play this carefully we can get Shearer to liveblog the date.

a_e) A fish riding a bicycle.

Do we get to name her or would that be premature?

Let me be first to suggest Eva B.

387: Dagny, obvs.

389: Not Dominique, one hopes.

|| In re daughter blogging, I recently wrote a professional letter to "Ms. [Client]", and was quite angrily corrected by Ms. [Client], who said she's a "Miss," not a "Ms." So it should be "Miss [Client]". And you know, personal preference or whatever, fine, but the level of hostility in her correction was more or less what I would expect if I'd addressed the letter "Dear Young Lady", or something. That's weird, right? Are there people to whom "Ms." is offensive?

||

336: were it an allergy you would get near-total, drastic relief on that first day, from the highest dose of your prednisone taper

Right, the allergist took note of the fact that while the skin rash/hives (which may not actually be hives) were knocked back by prednisone, they weren't knocked out. Therefore not an allergy to penicillin.

partial relief from prednisone is consistent with scabies

What? Hrm. But it's not scabies: the rash/hives/spots aren't in the right places: no rash between the fingers or on the trunk of the body. The allergist wanted to look specifically at those. It's all on my arms and legs. Also, although this has been going on for over a month, my housemate is fine. The diagnosis at this point is ... dermatitis. Ha! You mean something's wrong with my skin? Yes, I noticed that. Anyway, anti-itch stuff (by mouth and topically) is the ticket, since no one can get anywhere as long as I keep scratching myself a fresh rash every night. The good-ish news is that now that I assess this situation carefully, I actually don't have any new outbreaks: just the mess I've made of myself due to scratching.

As you were, folks!

|>

391: Hostile anti-feminists? I've never run into someone offended by Ms., but I live in a bubble.

391, I would guess you are more likely dealing with someone who hates those damn feminists.

It's shocking how many of the google search results for "is ms. offensive" are news stories about the Mississippi St. offense/offensive line/offensive coordinator.

af) A universally accepted title that doesn't reference marital status.

Okay, but, I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with "Miss," so in the future she's likely just to get letters from me addressed "Dear [First Name]".

If she's your client, she probably has a fair bit of money. Why don't you have her self-dower and maybe pick up an aristocratic husband from a family that has fallen on hard times. Then, you can just use Mrs.

391. Even if you knew by some magical means that she didn't like Ms, how were you supposed to know her marital status?

In a better world, it would turn out that urple's client and Shearer's lady crush are the same person.

Since obviously there are at least some people to whom "Ms." is offensive, a better way to have phrased my question in 391 would have been: "Should I be generally be concerned about using 'Ms.'? Is this the sort of thing on which it would be prudent to check the preferences of the addressee as a matter of course beforehand, or is this women clearly just an insane outlier?" That's really my question.

400: And she was angry because urple missed the "touching" signal. (Alternatively, tell me to take it to the blog that shall not be named.)

She hitting on you. Advertising her availability. Meet with her in person and see if she touches your arm.

You should probably have a form where they can pick their honorific.

Ms
Miss
Mrs.
Mr.
Dr.
Hon.
Eff. wz.
Rev.
Gen.
etc.

Aren't you practicing now in a more southerly state? Are things different there? I mean with respect to the autonomy of women, the sacredness (or lack thereof) of marriage, and so on.

In the godless areas of the country, "Ms." is fine and to be expected, so this woman would be an outlier. In the more traditional areas, perhaps it's overly familiar or transgressive. Can't you ask your coworkers?

404: You forgot "Dude".

404: That's Grand Mufti Apostropher to you, mister.

Eff. wz.

Effendi Wazir?

Advertising her availability.

Oh, right. "Miss" is kind of like ostentatiously not wearing a wedding or engagement ring.

408 > 407

408: Effete wazzock, of course.

Wz. Cs.

411: In polite society one assumes that chris y can follow his own construction across threads.

Can't you ask your coworkers?

I suppose I could.

412++

B. A. M. F.

Oh, right. "Miss" is kind of like ostentatiously not wearing a wedding or engagement ring.

How does one do this ostentatiously? Go round punching people in the face and saying: "It could have been worse"?

414: Be sure to specify "insane outlier" as one of the options.

(My coworkers are not generally as trustworthy as the mineshaft, IMO.)

419: "I just told urple that his plumbing should connect to his dryer vent. Don't spoil it."

My dryer vent is clogged with lint to the extent that I just gave up on it for the winter. Now my dryer vents inside (it's electric) and I have to figure out how to clear 30' of vent line that is accessible only at either end.

Just connect it to the toilet, and then use a plunger.

391 etc: Do other gentlemen get called "Mr. [Firstname]" (as though one were a hairdresser) by older female cow-orkers on a regular basis? Seems like pretty much everywhere I've worked, there is at least one person who will refer to or address me in that manner. They usually do it in this weird "making-a-joke-as-if-we-were-condescening-but-really-you-know-we're-not" way. I mean, call me anything you want, as long as you don't call me late for dinner.

"Oh urple, that was truly novel!"

421. Romex, pushed through then pulled back with something scrapy attached?

as though one were a hairdresser

...

425: They sell kits that you can attach to a drill and a shop vac. I'm just not sure if maybe I shouldn't replace the line as thirty-some year-old vinyl maybe should be replaced with something metal.

thirty-some year-old vinyl maybe should be replaced with something metal

NOOOO!!!!

423: Do other gentlemen get called "Mr. [Firstname]" (as though one were a hairdresser) by older female cow-orkers on a regular basis?

I am not a gentleman, but it happens so rarely that I'm called "Miss [Firstname]" that it stands out. It did happen yesterday at the doctor's office: at one point the (older) receptionist/office manager called me "Firstname", at another "Miss [Firstname]" ... sort of a badly managed office, as I'd think they should just establish a naming policy rather than hesitating and making it up afresh every 10 minutes.

417
How does one do this ostentatiously? Go round punching people in the face and saying: "It could have been worse"?

If she behaves somewhat flirtatiously (for example finds reasons to touch you) but also repeatedly refers to the man she is married to.

He meant "How does one ostentatiously fail to wear rings?" /standpipe.

423: I think the only context in which I hear any use of [Title][First Name] is at schools - my sister was obliged to use "Teacher M----"* when she worked in a kindergarten classroom, and there are adult ESOL students whom I teach who picked up "Mr. B----" somewhere (not on my suggestion).

*For egalitarian purposes and for Miss/Ms. avoidance - I don't know which came first.

Should I be generally be concerned about using 'Ms.'? Is this the sort of thing on which it would be prudent to check the preferences of the addressee as a matter of course beforehand, or is this women clearly just an insane outlier?"

No. Yes. IMO.

I am so happy that we no longer have to discover the marital status of women before corresponding with them. If a person asks to be addressed as Miss, Mrs, Mistress, &c., sure. But the whole idea that a woman's marital status ought to be public information...pheh.

I am so happy that we no longer have to discover the marital status of women before corresponding with them.

IYKWIM.

But the whole idea that a woman's marital status ought to be public information...pheh Facebook.

How does one do this ostentatiously?

He meant "How does one ostentatiously fail to wear rings?"

I missed this the first time around. You would think that it's hard to ostentatiously fail to wear rings, but in my experience, it's glaringly obvious, chiefly because the default in this society is to suppose that a woman of sufficient age is indeed married, and indeed she will be wearing a ring (ostentatious, often).

Bleh. Forgive me for a mild rant, but does it not seem to be the case that men do not ostentatiously wear marriage markers in this way? Well. I confess I do notice when a man is wearing a wedding ring. These things do signal that a person is taken. I would do away with them nonetheless. Christ, I can't even count the number of times (at the doctor's office yesterday, again!) that women remark upon their or one another's rings. Disgusting.

He meant "How does one ostentatiously fail to wear rings?" /standpipe.

The answer is to wear several huge tasteless rings on every digit except the ring finger.

Like the Rooney family.

Disgusting? That seems overstated.

Anyway, I wear a wedding ring but only because I'll never get a Super Bowl ring.

Christ, I can't even count the number of times (at the doctor's office yesterday, again!) that women remark upon their or one another's rings. Disgusting.

Oh please. People actually feel strongly about their rings, and other people may actually find the engagement ring or wedding ring combo beautiful, and comment on it, and the bearer might feel glad for the compliment.

The answer is to wear several huge tasteless rings on every digit except the ring finger.

Very sound!

Or what 439 said. OFF TO TEACH!

People actually feel strongly about their rings...

With God as my witness, I thought this ring was precious.

Disgusting? That seems overstated.

I know, but I'm in a state of itchy-scratchy, so I beg latitude. Truly, though, one is aware that becoming married isn't an achievement for which one wins a prize, and for the life of me, the ring thing looks like a prize one has won.

We don't wear them (rings). Its surprising how many people have had a problem with that, one way or another.

I think it should be like AA chits and you get a bigger one the longer you've been married.

In the future, there will be different rings for "married" "engaged" and "its complicated."

Yeah, my academic ex-advisor and his wife didn't wear them either, and people did find that problematic. They thought, among other things, that the advisor and wife were loose people.

They thought, among other things, that the advisor and wife were loose people.

Were they?

They thought, among other things, that the advisor and wife were loose people.

No and everyone was disappointed.

In the future, there will be different rings for "married" "engaged" and "its complicated."

Just waiting for Apple to announce the iMoodRing.

One of the few things I remember from studying Modern History at school is that Lenin had all kinds of trouble renting a room in London during his exile because Russians didn't traditionally wear wedding rings so landladies refused to believe that he and Krupskaya were married.

you get a bigger one the longer you've been married

At 10 years, you graduate up to a honkin' huge belt buckle.

450: Nope. People thought I was having an affair with my advisor, though -- which I totes didn't realize until a year or so after he'd left that academy, and someone told me what everyone had thought.

Anyway, no, they weren't. I had dinner with the both of them a number of times. They just didn't want to wear the marriage marker, so they didn't.

455 made me laugh.

450/456: I've run into that, and the assumption that I was trying to get away with something, or that we weren't really married, etc. etc. All basically comes down to: these people aren't conforming, there must be something deeply strange going on.

Tiresome, really.

Huh. This is probably just obliviousness, either because I'm not paying attention or because I live in Gomorrah-on-the-Hudson, but I've never noticed anyone getting a negative reaction for not wearing rings. But of course I do wear one, so I wouldn't be in a position to notice.

Working class men rarely wear rings because of industrial accidents/hitting on waitresses.

I believe it was common and acceptable (not just a mark of intention to cheat) in the US until fairly recently for married men to not wear a wedding ring in marriages where the woman did.

I believe it was common and acceptable (not just a mark of intention to cheat) in the US until fairly recently for married men to not wear a wedding ring in marriages where the woman did.

Right, I have a vague sense of that as a norm, although I can't think of a couple where I know that to be the case. But I don't really notice rings.

I think it was class related. My dad and his cohort wore them. Men who worked with their hands did not.

The manual labor thing makes sense -- I think Buck's dad didn't because of fixing cars. I can't remember if my parents did, but they don't count because they couldn't stand each other for most the time they were married.

http://uniqueweddingrings.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/blue-rose-wedding-ring/

But I don't really notice rings.

Many, many people do, it seems. It's a thing. I would eschew the practice myself, but now I'm repeating myself.

My dad has never worn his, not because he did manual labor or any related hobbies, but because he has never worn any kind of jewelry, so suddenly having a ring was weird for him.

Cambridge is pretty international, so you often see people with wedding rings on their right hands. Or with no rings, so you don't know if they're married with no rings or (gasp!) 50 and single.

Mrs. E and I have come full circle from 461; I always wear a wedding ring, and she typically does not.

Come to think of it, she does often wear rings on fingers other than the ring finger. Some of those rings might be described as ostentatious . . .

Hmmm . . . Maybe I should hire someone to follow her and take photographs . . .

If you want naked pictures of your wife, I know a guy who sells them.

464: shiv's ring is tungsten rather than a precious metal because he wanted to wear a ring, but he also wanted something that he wouldn't destroy.

468: Cambridge

My ex-advisor and his wife hail from Cambridge, so that might explain some things.

Two data points:

Metal dryer vents cost like $10 at the hardware store and are much less likely to catch on fire than even brand new vinyl ones.

My dad worked with his hands at work and at home, but also wore a wedding ring. (He also had his share of terrible accidents, but none relating to the ring finger.) It wasn't industrial-type work with lots of rapidly moving parts, though, so maybe that's the difference.

473.1: It isn't the cost of vent that I'm worried about, but the 30' of wall space I'd have to get it through. I'm not putting a hole in the drywall for this.

I wear both my wedding rings but of course people only see the finger one.

I'd think that if I tied a rope to the old vent line before I pulled it out, I could pull the new line through without too much trouble if there was no narrow point. But that would not be the case if there was some kind of compression in the middle. You might be able to pull a vinyl tube through a narrow point, especially if it was only narrow in one dimension as the tube will go flattish, but a metal tube has too much structural strength to go through that type of space.

The one they can't see is markedly less fing?

30' of vent line

Jesus, did it not occur to people out there to put those appliances on an exterior wall?

Again I tell you, it is easier for a vinyl tube to go through 30 feet of vent line than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

I would think it would be really, really dangerous for someone to have installed a dryer vent with any compression anywhere along the line. So I would say pull it out and if the new metal one doesn't go back in easily, you probably do want to call in a professional to get it squared away properly.

(I am terrified of dryer fires, basically. And mine vents directly outside right through the wall it's next to, so the thought of having an old vinyl one buried in 30 feet of wall space gives me the willies. Actually if I knew where you lived I'd probably call the fire department right now.)

He's in Pittsburgh.

My mother's original wedding ring was a plain, thin gold band wedding ring which she always wore until she got a new one in her 50's (for sentimental reasons). I don't remember her ever wearing her engagement ring. I sometimes (like today) wear her first ring on a chain around my neck.

I feel like I've really moved the conversation forward.

shiv replaced our tube with a metal vent about thirty seconds after we moved in. He cut a hole in the side of the house while I fretted about how we'd just bought the house and now he was putting holes in it.

It works great.

Moby, if you really mean 30' rather than 30", I'd consider moving the dryer to a location closer to an exterior wall, as gswift notes. I mean, maybe there's no power nearer to an exterior wall, but can't that be handled more easily than grappling with 30' for the vent?

So can you relocate the washer and dryer?

I really mean 30 feet. The appliance is on an external wall, but it's vented to the external wall on the other side of the house.

Moby, if you really mean 30' rather than 30", I'd consider

... forgetting about running it all the way outside and just sticking with the indoor venting you've got rigged up right now. Maybe buy a dehumidifier.

The appliance is on an external wall, but it's vented to the external wall on the other side of the house.

Is there some good reason for this?

487 poses a good question.

Moby's house was designed by Escher.

I think because the dryer used to be on the other side of the house.

What I want to do, assuming it is safe, is run the dryer vent into the same line as the range vent. That didn't exist when the dryer vent was installed, but I'm afraid that it would produce some kind of grease/lint fire.

I recommend a new vent on the correct side of the house.

In view of 490, 486 has much to recommend it. Do you own this jury rigged death trap or are you renting? Because, as your attorney, I advise you to get all the infrastructure checked out ASAP.

Well, for heaven's sake, Moby. I'd consider moving the dryer back over there, or make a new vent through the nearer exterior wall. I know it sucks to bore a hole through the wall (might take a professional), but the 30-foot business just seems silly.

I recommend a new vent on the correct side of the house.

Ditto.

Wouldn't the scheme described in 491 result in the dryer blowing some air into the range, and vice versa?

Could you vent the dryer into the toilet?

Right, but that may not be possible at a reasonable cost. Running across the house the way they did means that it was running with the ceiling joists. Running the other way means I'd have to go through those joists.

Wouldn't the scheme described in 491 result in the dryer blowing some air into the range, and vice versa?

Also lint/grease fires etc.

And I'm not moving the dryer back to where it was because it was in the basement. It's now upstairs and on the opposite side of the house. I don't want the spiders to get at my clothes.

Running the other way means I'd have to go through those joists.

Not just underneath them?

I'm going to stick with 492.

What you really need is a contraption that will allow you to capture the heat from the dryer exhaust and use it to cook an egg in a styrofoam cup.

501: I could probably go underneath them and run the vent right next to (instead of in to) the range vent. That probably makes good sense. That would only require one hole in the outside of the house, one hole in the drywall of the garage ceiling, and one hole in the floor. Assuming you are allowed to run dryer vents down instead of up.

I really liked my momentary misunderstanding that Moby's house had a 30 foot thick external wall. Don't fuck with me intruders!!

I should read threads.

Could you connect the dryer to my pwn?

But, I'd really rather just let the vent continue to blow out the back of the house so I don't get lint on my car.

Sounds like a mess. Just throw that house away and get a new one.

Don't listen to them, Mobes. You want a single vent running through all your appliances, sort of like a hamster maze through the refrigerator, in and out of the toilets, doubling back through the washing machine, and ultimately venting onto your bed.

504

Well, clearly you are just trolling us now.

Because you can't run dryer vents down?

Stand the dryer on a pallet in the basement. Buy a spider-eating snake to live in the pallet slats.

and ultimately venting onto your bed

Or into the mattress! Sleep on a cushion of (linty) air.

Make a Klein Bottle dryer.

The vent into the house works just fine, by the way. It just seems like a waste of energy in the summer.

I'm pretty sure you can run a dryer vent down.

When I got my house, one of very few in LA with a traditional basement (for good reason, it requires a somewhat elaborate pump system to keep from flooding routinely when it rains), I said I wanted to put the washer/dryer in the basement. The contractor FREAKED OUT as did all the other home owner advice people and were aghast with the idea that anyone would voluntarily choose to go up and down a small flight of stairs to do laundry. Also the guy kept mysteriously including and re-including plans for a laundry chute from the second floor that I said like 10,000 times I didn't want.

There was supposed to be a joke attached to 451, but it was lame anyway.

Also the guy kept mysteriously including and re-including plans for a laundry chute from the second floor that I said like 10,000 times I didn't want.

According to family lore, when I was a baby my older brother and sisters piled up laundry underneath the chute in the basement and then dropped our cat into the chute from the 2nd floor. (The cat was fine.) But, really, they were being very responsible. The cat was just a test to see if it was safe to drop me down. My mother intercepted them before they actually did it though.

(Lest you think my sibs were trying to harm their precious baby sister, they said they thought it would be fun to go down themselves but they wouldn't fit, so they figured they'd give me the thrill.)

Did you get a coat of many colors and they didn't?

Actually, I was the Reuben, the eldest of the children of Israel, in my UU church's production.

Great, now "Next day, far from home, the brother planned the repulsive crime" is running through my head accompanied by images of hairy Ishmaelites.

^s

Reuben went to Egypt and told pharaoh to save cabbage and Russian dressing.

I hope that our erstwhile companion dsquared is aware of this piece of owl news.

511
No, you can run a vent down, but you're talking about cutting 3 holes including in the exterior wall to send the vent along an alternate circuitous route when the whole point of not using the obvious direct route for the vent was to avoid cutting a hole in an exterior wall. (And, of course, in the original instance, spiders.) so I had begun to think you were kidding.

If not, I'll just go back to worrying about your safety and we can pretend this misunderstanding never happened.

I'd heard that the Unitarians had replaced Christmas with the Pageant of the Sandwiches, good to have it confirmed.

525: It's on the exterior wall, but not right where you can cut a hole. The front of my house is a little complicated.

Never cut a hole in spiders.

What you really need is a contraption that will allow you to capture the heat from the dryer exhaust and use it to cook an egg in a styrofoam cup.

Now this is the kind of innovative thinking we need to solve the energy crisis. Give MAE a MacArthur grant!

According to family lore, when I was a baby my older brother and sisters piled up laundry underneath the chute in the basement and then dropped our cat into the chute from the 2nd floor. (The cat was fine.) But, really, they were being very responsible. The cat was just a test to see if it was safe to drop me down. My mother intercepted them before they actually did it though.

We used to drop the neighbor kids down the laundry chute all the time, although we put a spare matress at the bottom, instead of just a pile of laundry. (We also used to zip each other up in suitcases and then push the suitcases down the stairs. It's a wonder no one ever got seriously hurt.)

I went through our laundry chute. Not sent by my brothers, though. Just me and my friend having fun.

Never cut a hole in spiders.

Do they get mad or somefing?

It ran from the upstairs to the kitchen, and ended on a shelf which was waist-high. So not as long a slide and fall as if it ran to the basement or something.

My dream as a 7 year old was probably to some day get street cred for my derring-do down the laundry chute. So today my dream has been realized.

I once electrically welded a ring to a metal frame with my finger in it. Once I finished hopping around and removing it, it made the most beautifully circular blister you could ever hope to see.

If I still did any real work for a living, I'd avoid rings for that reason.

I once electrically welded a ring to a metal frame with my finger in it. Once I finished hopping around and removing it, it made the most beautifully circular blister you could ever hope to see.

If I still did any real work for a living, I'd avoid rings for that reason.

I hope your friend wasn't injured in any way. Or if so that he eventually recovered quite well.

535: On the plus side, if whatever you were welding needed a grommet, you've got that covered.

535-536: Ow.

And speaking of de-lurking, lurkers and newbies and used-to-bes should all come to Unfogged 3: Breaking Dawn! For reals!

539: where/when?

D.C. over Memorial Day weekend.

We also used to zip each other up in suitcases and then push the suitcases down the stairs.

A great deal of urple's adult mindset is thereby explained.

379

... But what do you want?

That's a whole another can of worms. Anyway this all happened some time ago so at this point the question is just how to label this episode in my catalog of missed opportunities with women. Another confusing point (for me) was she explicitly referred to "the man I am dating" which seems like unusual usage to me but what do I know.

Oh. In that case there's no question: she definitely wanted you. Achingly.

I would read "the man I am dating" as "we met recently and it's not serious."

Obviously, she was trying to lure a man back so that she and her lover could harvest the kidneys to bolster their real estate earnings during the housing bust. Happens all the time.

I think it needs to be emphasised that Moby is actually on the verge of taking advice on household plumbing from URPLE. I am now googling around for live satellite overheads of Pittsburgh so I can watch for heat blooms.

It's 15 degrees (regular) outside. I'm not doing anything until spring.

Moby is actually on the verge of taking advice on household plumbing from U.R.P.L.E. the top-secret agency with a top-secret master plan to develop a world-destroying superweapon by convincing individual homeowners to develop individual weapon components disguised as nonsensical home repairs.

TOP SECRET!

I wonder if that is in Netflix streaming. Have not seen it in a while.

"Looks like a perfectly normal dryer vent, doesn't it, 007? But just twist it round like this and -- DON'T TOUCH THAT --"

"No Mr. Bond, I expect you to dry."

It's 15 degrees (regular) outside.

So that's about 60 Fahrenheit ? I fail to see the problem...

re 530 and the latest comments: Say urple, you wouldn't happen to have known a chap went by the name of Gareth Williams?

554: I do use metric for work. I had to stop the new guy from routinely converting all the metric measures into regular measures.

553 wins.

It does, and it reminded me of the best xkcd ever.

Anyway this all happened some time ago so at this point the question is just how to label this episode in my catalog of missed opportunities with women

Shearer has binders full of women!

Being actually responsive to the original question for a moment, genuine ambivalence is often an underrated possibility: someone with body language indicating attraction but saying things that would tend to close off the possibility of going anywhere with it might perfectly well be attracted but not intending to do anything about it, and concealing the attraction imperfectly.

Loose pants help.

(This theory allows for maximum internal preening about how she/he totally wanted you, with a minimal chance of ever having your bubble burst by finding out you were wrong. Of course, you also never get laid, but you can't have everything.)

Loose pants, help.

Loose pants help... plants?

554 reminds me of something that's been bugging me for a while now: clothes-washing instructions.

I have a pair of pants that says "machine wash cold" on the label. However, elsewhere on the pants there is an icon that looks like a basin of water with "30 C" in it. Now, I can't do exact Fahrenheit-to-Celsius conversions in my head, but I can ballpark it, and 30 degrees Celsius comes out to about 90 degrees Fahrenheit. That is not cold. So is either the label or the icon incorrect, or does washing it by hand (as if in a basin) require hotter water than in a machine, or is there something I'm misunderstanding, or what?

re: 560

Or one of those people, and we've probably all met them, that flirt really actively with no intention of following through on the flirting.

'Oh, I was stroking your thigh? I can't believe you read anything into that.'

90°F isn't cold, but in water it'd feel cool -- water starts feeling warm at right about exactly body temperature. Maybe it means "No warmer than"?

Oh, hey Eggie: email me at heebie dot geebie at gmail. I couldn't find your email address.

I have a pair of pants that says "machine wash cold" on the label. However, elsewhere on the pants there is an icon that looks like a basin of water with "30 C" in it.

We're still talking about Shearer's mixed signals, right?

30 degrees C would be a cool wash but not cold. Washing machines use a much more vigorous cycle, and the stuff is exposed to water much longer than in hand washing. So it wouldn't surprise me if something that could handle a brief 5 minute exposure to 30C water (cool to the touch but not cold) when hand washed, but would shrink or distort when exposed to the same for 90 minutes while being bashed and rotated in a machine.

It's -5 here right now, with a -16 windchill (Fahrenheit, of course, I don't know what those are in pretend temperatures). Some darn kids have been whooping it up outside for awhile. Although I don't think school was cancelled here. I've waited for the school bus on MUCH colder mornings than this one. The best part? It's going to get up near 40 degrees next week!

564: France.

Huh. Maybe 90 F isn't as hot as I thought when it comes to water. I knew that 100 feels hot in a hot tub (not the hottest possible, but hot enough that I'd get in slowly), so I thought 90 would also be noticeably warm, but maybe not. 570 makes sense too.

570 would be pretty damn hot.