Re: Doesn't quite count

1

Almost six million South Africans have guns, and the nation has one of the world's highest gun ownership rates at 12.7 forearms per 100 people.

A nation of amputees?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:05 AM
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That should have been blockquoted.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:06 AM
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****BREAKING**** MUST CREDIT DRUDGE JP STORMCROW ****


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:07 AM
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Perhaps the sophisticated cinematic in-joke didn't translate will into interior Texan.

Perhaps the folk joke was too stupid even for heebie.

Perhaps I suck.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:16 AM
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NMM2 Ronald Dworkin.
|>


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:18 AM
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Well, it's definitely sad. The cops are saying the "oops it was an accident/he thought it was a burglar" story didn't come from them and they've answered various domestic calls at his house.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:21 AM
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Did you lot only just wake up or something? We've been talking about this all day. My kids are pretty disappointed.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:24 AM
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I've been up since 6! I just got to a computer, though.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:25 AM
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6.1: That was associated with "maybe she was trying to surprise him for Valentine's Day" when I read it. Pure speculation I assume.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:25 AM
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8 - I have no idea what time it is in your part of the world. Half past 3 here.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:27 AM
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Did you lot only just wake up or something? We've been talking about this all day. My kids are pretty disappointed.

It's sad, Asilon, but you can reassure them that other capable scholars will carry on the tradition of applying Kantian ethics to real world legal problems.



Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:29 AM
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Longitudinal privilege is deprecated.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:30 AM
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||
Chubby Checker sues Hewlett-Packard over app to measure penis size

Should have gone with The Peter O'Toole. He seems more likely to have approved.
|>


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:02 AM
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8 - I have no idea what time it is in your part of the world. Half past 3 here.

Is it summer or winter in England?


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:08 AM
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Hard to tell, it's rained constantly since they declared there was a drought.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:10 AM
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Is it summer or winter in England?

The snow melted yesterday. We await developments.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:11 AM
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||

This war between Tesla and a NYT reviewer is really fascinating. I was all ready to be like "yeah, yeah, electric car company, everybody's so unfair to you, whatever" but those logs are pretty damning.

|>


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:14 AM
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13: ****BREAKING**** MUST CREDIT DRUDGE JP STORMCROW IN A FORGOTTEN THREAD*****

This is what I get for trying to honor the early thread derailment embargo.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:27 AM
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17
I love stuff like that. I mean, yes, it's gotta be infuriating to Tesla, but the slam against Broder is delicious.


Posted by: Mentioner | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:27 AM
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17: After their treatment by Top Gear I'm not surprised that Tesla is paranoid about logging everything that reviewers do with their cars. I hope Broder gets canned over this.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:28 AM
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Credit: Stormcrow.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:33 AM
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Oh, John Broder isn't David Broder... Now I'm way less excited about this dust up.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:34 AM
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That really does seem astonishingly irresponsible of the writer, if what Tesla's saying is accurate.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:35 AM
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21: Alright then!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:37 AM
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One more pwning and you can trade up to one of the medium-sized prizes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:41 AM
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As EK says in his profile, journalists pick the story first and then find a way to make it work.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:41 AM
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pause, play y'all.

Looks like Broder is being an asshole again.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:41 AM
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22: Yeah, me too.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:43 AM
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22/28: Well sure it would have been much more interesting, what with David Broder rising from the dead and all.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:50 AM
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Yeah. I googled Broder, saw DB's wikipedia page said he was dead, realized that this sadly meant that he wasn't the Broder involved, but then thought "Well at least DB is dead," and then thought that I was a bad person.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:53 AM
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Plus, it would have meant that the self-driving cars were well and truly ready for prime time.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:55 AM
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30.last: "His body is gone but back here on the lawn his spirit continues to drool."

- L. Cohen


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:10 AM
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5: I saw that. Didn't know he was ill. I was amazed by how sharp he was in colloquia and seminars at NYU 6 years or so ago. I never got around to 'Justice for Hedgehogs', sigh (though we read some draft chapters as he was writing it).


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:10 AM
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17: it looks like they really nailed him. Neat.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:17 AM
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What it sort of looks like he was doing was testing for literal accuracy of the range estimates -- charging until the car claimed it would just make the next stop, or something like that, and then seeing if it worked. But if that were the plan, it very much should have been made explicit.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:35 AM
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I too join the chorus of surprise at the news that David Broder has been dead for almost two years.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:40 AM
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Well sure it would have been much more interesting, what with David Broder rising from the dead and all.

I'm supposed to keep track of which centrist apologists are still alive? I'm gonna need an app for that.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:42 AM
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discuss: http://feltron.tumblr.com/post/43027160095/fifty-states-with-equal-population


Posted by: Drive By | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:00 AM
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Some believe Broder is alive, others believe he's dead. Surely the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:04 AM
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Wow, surely that's a firing offense.

Broder, although I guess Pastorius as well.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:06 AM
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those logs are pretty damning.

OTOH we have no way of knowing that those logs actually came from the car Broder was driving. I mean, it's not like they'd have been terribly difficult to whip up in Photoshop.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:10 AM
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I have a hard time believing that the logs would be fraudulent. Inaccurate due to some technical malfunction, possibly, but Tesla would be really stupid to publish fake logs.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:15 AM
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For the record, as soon as I heard the news this morning, I looked forward to Unfogged's folk humor on the OP.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:16 AM
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41: Mmm. I tend to believe whichever party is saying "You're lying, and we have data to prove it", but you're right that we don't really know. If Broder came back with "Those logs can't possibly be right, I know I had the heat off because I was losing sensation in my hands", I'd be doubtful again. But in the absence of a direct challenge from Broder, I'm believing Tesla.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:16 AM
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Somebody I showed that too points out that if you look at (for instance) the temperature data, he does seem to have turned off the heat at some point, just slightly later than he claimed. Also, in the case of charging 47 vs. 58 minutes, he did nonetheless have to sit around for about an hour at a rest stop to charge his car a little bit, which is not not annoying.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:20 AM
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44: This seems relevant: "Repeated requests from Wired for Tesla to release the raw data from Broder's vehicle have been denied." (From this article.)

Somebody's clearly lying here, but I have no clue who.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:21 AM
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46 doesn't look great, but the "raw" data could easily contain all sorts of industrial secrets Tesla would be reluctant to have its competitors getting hold of.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:25 AM
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Broder's reply


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:25 AM
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That reply is from Saturday... before Tesla published its data on Sunday. I think Broder's next reply will be the interesting one.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:30 AM
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Never mind


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:34 AM
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The Transparent Society should at least get us a higher standard of quibbling and misdirection. Finally, our talents will be needed!


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:45 AM
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39 is genius.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:48 AM
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The link at 38 is fascinating.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:49 AM
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Everyone is beautiful and special! Happy Valentine's Day, you gorgeous snowflakes.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:51 AM
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38, 53 -- Cold head hands, friends, cold dead hands.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:53 AM
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But Happy VD to you SK!


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:54 AM
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Austin, Abilene, and Shreveport? Ugh.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:55 AM
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I agree with "someone is lying and we can't tell who" but in this instance I'd say a priori it's reasonably unlikely to be the journalist, given the hypersensitivity of automotive journalists to libel suits. But who knows. Also even on Tesla's account it seems pretty damning for a super expensive car but whatever.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:57 AM
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39. Schrödinger's columnist?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:01 PM
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55: I don't want to *live* in that country. I much prefer the blue city archipelago concept.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:13 PM
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A Tesla scared the bejeezus out of me recently by sneaking up as I was peacefully riding my bike and then whipping around me at speed. Quiet and fast. I want one, and Broder can be my driver.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:18 PM
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Yeah, I noticed the drop in the temperature data. That bit doesn't make Tesla look very good, as it looks like they're leaving out the parts they don't want to talk about.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:23 PM
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Wow, surely that's a firing offense.

You must be new here.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:26 PM
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I dunno, the NYTimes might take auto review accuracy more seriously than war and national security.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:32 PM
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More reasonably interesting analysis.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:33 PM
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I blame Valentine's Day.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:37 PM
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Nice try, Halford. We all know your bias against cars that run on anything less than pure whale oil.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:39 PM
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68
I located the proper adapter in the trunk, plugged in and walked to the only warm place nearby, Butch's Luncheonette and Breakfast Club, an establishment (smoking allowed) where only members can buy a cup of coffee or a plate of eggs.

What's with an establishment like this? Is it to get around a smoking ban, or to bar black people, or something?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:44 PM
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Health codes, maybe? A restaurant needs a kitchen that meets standards, a private club doesn't?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:47 PM
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68:My guess would be to get around a smoking ban.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:48 PM
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68: if easy to join, health regs; if hard, sorting.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:50 PM
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Isn't there some probably-different reason why bars have a big jar of pickled eggs sitting somewhere? Like, food has to be available when you're drinking?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:52 PM
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Isn't it because pickled eggs are delicious?


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:54 PM
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68: In the South it'd be liquor laws. In a lot of pseudo-dry counties, you can't have a bar, but you can have a members-only club. So the bars charge a buck membership and call themselves clubs.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 12:54 PM
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||

My student missed class on Tuesday because her brother broke his leg. I said no problem, because whatever, it's just class. Then she missed the test today and emailed that his surgery is hanging over her head and she couldn't take the test.

I misread her email, and thought she was saying he was in surgery at that very moment, and that she'd be back on campus this afternoon. So I grumpily told her I'd give her the test this afternoon.

When she didn't show up this afternoon, I went back and realized she said his surgery is not until tomorrow afternoon. This is completely ridiculous, right? Your brother having leg surgery?

I'm also not sure how to respond since I set a precedent of accommodating her already. I think I'm screwed and have to give her a make-up test tomorrow.

|>


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:07 PM
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Would she show up tomorrow, with her brother under the very surgeon's knife? Give her a week or so to recover. (I actually have no idea at all.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:09 PM
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75: A professor friend of mine has been keeping a Dead Grandmother tally on the whiteboard in his office for a few years now.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:12 PM
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75: A professor friend of mine has been keeping a Dead Grandmother tally on the whiteboard in his office for a few years now.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:12 PM
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I think you need to take a no mercy approach to these wingeing students of yours. Just ask yourself "What would Halford do?" Answer: make them eat half a buffalo and hold 200 lb. weights during the make-up test.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:12 PM
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In this case, 99% likely smoking regs. There's really no such thing as a building reg* that doesn't apply to a private club (the ADA talks about "public accommodation", but I'm 95% certain that a place of assembly that happens to be a private club wouldn't be exempt; frex, if you have an office for 2 people, and you want to put in a bathroom, it needs to be accessible - the only exception is a bathroom attached to a single person's office with no access for anyone else). OTOH, smoking regs frequently exempt private club-type establishments.

*including stuff about kitchens and such


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:15 PM
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To cut her some slack, if she lives locally she might be caretaking a freaked-out parent. Not that it's necessary that she should, but I know families where that would be what's going on.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:16 PM
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I agree with 53. I actually think that map merits an entire thread.

A thread in which no one is allowed to say, "It'll never happen."


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:16 PM
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82.2: It'll never happen.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:20 PM
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It'll never happen.

Seriously, what's to talk about? I've seen maps like that before, and it'd be nice if Senate representation was proportional to population, but I don't understand what a conversation about the map would be about.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:20 PM
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Damn you, peep.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:20 PM
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Ok, I just needed a plausible reason to be sympathetic. I'll give her a make-up test.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:22 PM
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84.2: Wouldn't NYC have to be split into two states? The thread might not hit 1000, but I see some potential for argument.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:26 PM
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What's the population? Six million ish? We could keep most of the good bits, and slough some Queens of onto Long Island.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:28 PM
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which is not not annoying.

no indeed.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:36 PM
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I'd like to see us divided into city states. For some spatial resolution that matches the number of desired polities, you find the local density peaks and divide the country into a Voronoi diagram, each polity having a roughly equal representation of rural and urban areas.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:41 PM
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she might be caretaking a freaked-out parent

This is me at the moment. My great-grandmother just died and Jesus H. my mother is a mess.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:43 PM
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(I don't mean to suggest that the furthest flung bits of Queens aren't the good bits, but they're a natural place to trim if you're making states.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:46 PM
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This graphic showing the status of gay rights in each state is an interesting addition to the discussion. You could use any set of issues, policies, demographics, etc., to show different types of alignments and shared interests among states.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:51 PM
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ditto 81. If my sibling had broken a leg and required surgery when I was a freshman in college, not only would I have had to do a lot of caretaking suddenly, I would have had no way to get to college. And I would have been highly embarrassed to explain why.


Posted by: Ile | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:59 PM
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92: please?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 1:59 PM
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In trying to read up on the Tesla scandal, I ran across this truly shocking yet incredibly awesome profile of Will. What we didn't know.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:05 PM
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we didn't know a lot of things, let's not waste time blaming ourselves.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:13 PM
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make-up test is the right way to go about it. you can give her a stern talking-to though.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:26 PM
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Via the NY Times:

On her Twitter account, Ms. Steenkamp ... posted a message on Wednesday alluding to Valentine's day, saying: "What do you have up your sleeve for your love tomorrow???"

As Morissette might say, it's like getting shot dead by your boyfriend on Valentine's Day.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:35 PM
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It's so much easier to be nice to students than to be mean to them over stuff like this. Every now and then you have to make sure you're not being taken advantage of. But in general, treating students like regular, reasonable, human beings who are doing regular, reasonable things is a good rule of thumb.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:38 PM
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have you ever got upset at a student and later felt very bad about what you said?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:47 PM
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61
A Tesla scared the bejeezus out of me recently by sneaking up as I was peacefully riding my bike and then whipping around me at speed.

Everyone worries about this, but you know, normal cars sneak up on me all the time. I'm pretty sure I'd notice a car coming if it and I were alone on the road, but during rush hour, the background noise and general road noise is loud enough that I don't hear individual cars until they're fairly close.

The fact that I usually bike with ear warmers on these days probably doesn't help, but still, I'm pretty sure cars would sneak up on me a lot anyways.

100: That's crazy talk.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:52 PM
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More relevant information re Tesla scandal.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:54 PM
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Seriously, what's to talk about?

Precise boundaries, obviously. Repatriation of ethnic groups to their natural homelands. Lebensraum.

More seriously, it's intriguing to think about how politics in such a map would shake out - on the one hand, the very biggest cities effectively become city-states, with all but the closest suburbs politically separated; on the other hand, medium-sized cities/metros become more central to their states (literally and figuratively, mostly), such that it's less clear that the current urban/exurban divide would work the way it does now.

I mean, it's a given that this map would result in less representation for big, empty places, but what's the new dynamic, both at the Federal level and the state/local level.

Also, too, if the states are drawn intelligently, then natural resources are at least potentially better-tended.

And maybe someone else has something to say on the topic.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:57 PM
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I don't get this scandal. Presumably there is more than this one S model being driven around. Do they experience the same problem? If not, given Tesla's response, I would conclude that Broder is just being an asshole.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 2:58 PM
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There was a ton of fooling around with the maps in the territorial era. Where I now sit was once Washington, and then Idaho, before being moved (I'm told by means of some considerable chicanery) to MT. But really, once you have a state, it all fixes, and the only thing you really can do is divide states, eg the creations of Maine and West Virginia.

I think dividing up California might well make a whole lot of sense: one of the great democratic features on my state is that with a 100 member House, you can win with 2,500 votes. That's a manageable number of people to meet, and there's little point in using TV. I realize that a 3,000 member California assembly isn't in the cards, but division would allow smaller communities to better govern themselves.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:16 PM
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|| I see that the President missed a chance today to advance the nickel. And passed on limiting patents to 5 years. Is there no disappointment the man will not inflict? |>


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:21 PM
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He did declare himself not an Emperor, though, so there's that.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:23 PM
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103: The parking brake running on electricity seems like an incredibly stupid design decision to me. Those things are also known as emergency breaks, and, in an emergency, power should not be assumed.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:30 PM
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Where I now sit was once Washington, and then Idaho

The state we'd be in on that map would rule. We'd have everything from the Salt Lake ski areas and Dinosaur Nat. Monument up to Glacier? And we get Yellowstone, the Bitteroot, Salmon, Sawtooth, etc. wilderness areas? Hell yes I'll take those boundaries.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:35 PM
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One sign that the Democratic Party isn't serious about winning is that it hasn't spent the last 20 years on statehood for DC & Puerto Rico*, plus dividing CA into at least 2, preferably 4. If Orange+SD gave the GOP at least one red state out of it, that's the start of a compromise. I'd be happy to see Texas split into more states as well (since I think that it would be very hard to make any significant number of deep red subTexases).

The point isn't that, if only the Dems tried, they'd get 4 new blue states; it's that they're not even pushing it, and it's an easy, pro-democracy argument to make. If they argued for going to 60 states, but ended up with just 52 or whatever, it's still a win.

* complicated, of course, by the desires of actual Puerto Ricans. But here's what I don't get: didn't statehood win the last plebiscite? Isn't that news of some sort? Are they actually any closer to statehood than they were before that vote?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:40 PM
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109: I know! When I read that part of Broder's article, I was agog. WTF, Tesla?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:40 PM
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109, 112: That's not original to Tesla.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:44 PM
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||

Ok, lets play "which one of us is being obnoxious?"

I just had the following conversation with a cow-orker who knocked on my door. We'll call the cow-orker "nem."

Nem: Esteemed colleague! How are you doing!

Me: Good. What can I do for you.

Nem: May I procure for you a throat lozenge?

Me: "For me" or "from me." [reaches into desk drawer and takes out some Halls to offer for my neighbor, apparently in need.]

Nem: *For* you. You see I can hear you making throat noises from my office, and I was wondering if you were sick.

Me: I am having problems

Nem: What is it?

Me: Bronchitis. [Probably not actually the right term. It's more of a throat-sinus thing.]

Nem: Oh, I'm sorry.

Me: Well, I'm sorry if I disturbed you. I'll try to be more quiet. I didn't know you could hear me.

Nem: No no. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said anything. Now you will think I am fussy. I'll go now.

So, he was the one being obnoxious here, right? I mean, the odds are slim that my coughing noises were so gross as to merit this kind of response?

|>


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:46 PM
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Yeah, I rented a Subaru with an electric parking brake once, which did not make me feel comfortable at all. Like what if the battery died, and you wanted to roll-start the thing, but couldn't because the parking brake wouldn't disengage?

I guess that's not an issue on an electric vehicle, but still strikes me as deeply stupid.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:49 PM
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He's being a jerk unless you're making a really unusual amount of noise. That is, that conversation was a roundabout way of saying "Quit coughing, you're driving me insane," and while that's reasonable at the opera, in your office you're allowed to cough. But if you're really making that much noise, maybe you should have stayed home?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:52 PM
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114 -- is that a literal transcript? Because if so regardless of content your colleagues style puts him on the kill list.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:55 PM
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We'll, I don't think I've been making that much noise. And actually I'm feeling better than I have in several weeks.

You know, I once had an office across from a guy who smoked a pipe and would periodically make noises like he was coughing up a tumor. But did I go over there and offer him smoking cessation tips? No.

Another data point: the cow-orker who talked to me just now has on two separate occasions told me that he thought my lunch was "disgusting."


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:57 PM
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117: As close as I could make it. I typed it up and emailed it to Molly as soon as it happened.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 3:59 PM
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Oh, dear. Is English a second language, or is he just that affected?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:01 PM
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Can you describe his manner of dress?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:15 PM
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I received an anonymous note a few years back from someone, presumably a colleague, telling me that my habit of bringing a laptop into talks was distracting and rude. Naturally, I began bringing my laptop with me everywhere and seriously considered, for a time at least, bringing a desktop with me to department meetings. Anyway, I think you should pretend to acquire croupe, pertussis, and silicosis and ask to throw away your snot-soaked tissues in his office -- "I'm sorry, but my trashcan is full. May I use yours?" -- but miss and leave them strewn all over the floor.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:21 PM
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I also think you should give him a trade blanket filled with smallpox scabs.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:21 PM
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Rebuttal from Broder, for anyone still interested.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:31 PM
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Delicious!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:37 PM
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OT: Happy Valentine's Day, you filthy reprobates, single, coupled and "other" alike.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:39 PM
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The whole episode is, for me, a good example of how hard it is to sort through competing accounts of an event. Somebody should write a book making that very point.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:41 PM
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Pfft. Someone should write a book making that point, that also cures cholera.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:44 PM
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Or, better still, that causes cholera! In which case, rob can give a copy to his colleague.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:46 PM
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"Your Tesla has died of dysentery."

A neighbor of the Flip-Pater's owns a Tesla. The Flip-Pater reports that the car is often parked on the lawn, sucking power through a thick umbilical from the clapboard New England-standard house in a way that a lazier writer might compare to something out of William Gibson's lighter moments.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:46 PM
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In unrelated news, I am a very lazy writer.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 4:47 PM
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114 makes me feel slightly better about the bizarre interactions I've been having with people at work today. Today in my class one student shouted at another one to be quiet when the student asked questions! It was very awkward. Especially because a department administrator has basically told me to take the side of the shouting student.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:07 PM
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a department administrator

This is sufficiently ambiguous that I'm not going to pass judgment on this person. I also suppose that the lack of details in the original story stands in the way of such passing of judgment. But I'm not sure I would have let that -- at least that alone -- stop me.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:14 PM
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I feel like there is backstory to 132 that is fascinating.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:21 PM
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By "basically" I assume you mean you joined in. "NO QUESTIONS."


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:23 PM
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122: I considered that, and decided that we've had enough bad encounters that I don't want things to escalate. In addition to calling my food "disgusting" he has told me "it would be a problem" if I brought my kids to the office sometimes.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:24 PM
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The details are boring and tedious. Basically there's some hotshot undergrad taking my class and he likes to ask a lot of questions with a lot of math jargon that most physics students don't know, and sometimes his questions are annoying and he asks too many of them and it wastes class time, and so several of the first-year grad students in the class hate him. They went and complained to me and the director of graduate studies and the teaching assistant and basically everyone else they know in the department. One of these grad students is visibly angry all the time and told me I have to force this undergrad to stop asking questions and that I have to demand that this undergrad apologize to him. And I basically told him his interpersonal issues are not my problem, which pissed him off even more. So today he just went off on the other kid in class. At this rate there'll be fisticuffs by the end of the semester. But I'm the only person who seems to think the problem is the angry guy rather than the undergrad asking all the questions.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:24 PM
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Huh. Is it mostly a graduate class? And, is it a required class for grad students in the department?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:27 PM
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And there's so much fucking entitlement all around. The undergrad thinks he has a right to have all of his "but how does this relate to my favorite math topic that won't come up in this class?" questions answered, and the grad students think they have the right to not listen to him and to dictate how mathematical the class is allowed to be, and they're all pissing me off because I don't understand how they can have so much emotional investment in a fucking class.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:27 PM
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138: It's an advanced graduate class and it isn't required of anyone, except that I think one or two of the experimental particle professors have told all of their students to sign up for it.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:28 PM
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Because then I could see the "being annoyed at the undergrad taking the class essentially for fun and wasting a lot of time with questions that aren't directly relevant to the material that the first year grad students really need to be up on" thing, if not the "angry all the time" thing.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:28 PM
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I'm mostly just curious if I know the undergrad.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:31 PM
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Could you gently redirect the undergrad by saying "that's a very interesting question but outside the scope of this class" and redirect the grad student by saying "here, bite down on this pillow"?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:31 PM
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Between this and frustrations with collaborators I just want to start saying to everyone "um, guys? It's just particle physics. It doesn't matter. We're not solving real problems or learning useful skills. Chill the fuck out."


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:32 PM
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"that's a very interesting question but outside the scope of this class"

That's what I've been trying to do; there was one class early on where I spent an inordinate amount of time answering his questions, and after I realized what was going on I started deflecting them, and he also caught on to everyone else being pissed off and started asking fewer of them. So I thought things were better until the grad student started shouting today.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:33 PM
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It doesn't matter. It is matter.

But really, if I were a grad student and some preening undergrad were taking up all the class time I would hate his ass (but I wouldn't do anything in class but roll my eyes a lot).


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:34 PM
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have you ever got upset at a student and later felt very bad about what you said?

I can't think of a time, but my memory is generally spotty for things that put me in a bad light. I'm incredibly good at forgetting shitty things I've done.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:35 PM
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It also might be that the grad students need to pass the class with a relatively high grade in order to get elective credit for it and are pissed off that the undergrad -- who doesn't need as high a grade as they need -- is trying to make the material harder.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:36 PM
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Also it is fascinating to me how much I identify with the grad students, even though of course I don't take classes at all seriously (I dropped the moderately hard-seeming class in favor of one that is so easy it's hilarious and sort of sad).


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:39 PM
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Why do grad students care about grades? I was just going to give them all an A anyway, unless they just don't do the homework.

I haven't really figured out graduate student culture in my department. Classes seem to be really important to them and they don't get into research until really late. I didn't take classes in grad school, except the required lab course that I put minimum effort into.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:39 PM
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Grad students don't get grades. Dollars to donuts essear will give them all A's (maybe, *maybe*, an A-).


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:40 PM
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150.1: I have heard that it matters for postdoc funding?

150.2: yeah that is very odd. Classes are a distinct afterthought in my department.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:41 PM
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142: Where would you know him from? Email me if you want.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:41 PM
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I'm incredibly good at forgetting shitty things I've done.

I wish I had this skill. I remember every fuckup and moment that reflects poorly on me in vivid detail.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:44 PM
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154: oooh, even you-know-what?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:44 PM
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150.1: I have heard that it matters for postdoc funding?

I never had to submit a transcript or anything when applying for a postdoc job.

Classes are a distinct afterthought in my department.

I've been surprised by how vehemently people in my department defend the idea that first-year students shouldn't be spending any serious time on research. Especially when "has a lot of undergrad research experience" is more or less the determining factor in admitting them in the first place.

But even the second- and third-year grad students I know who are trying to get started in research seem to be floundering. Some have come to me for ideas on projects and I ask them to do something really simple as a first step and they go away for a while and come back two or three weeks later wanting to talk more without having actually done anything in the meantime except maybe reading a little.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:45 PM
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My phd program at caltech (and a few others I know of) had both breadth and depth requirements for classes and grade cutoffs.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:45 PM
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155: I fully realize I'm being trolled but it's working, you bastard.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:48 PM
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156.1: did you apply for your own funding?

156.last: yeah, totally weird. We're required to complete first and second year research projects (I mean, can be the same project, but anyhow).

157: what are breadth and depth requirements?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:48 PM
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139: Dealing with people like that is one of the most important skills that professors at the law school need to acquire. The best approach I've seen is, you entertain the obnoxiously entitled question for a couple of minutes, but if it's taking the class too far afield you say "why don't you come talk to me about that in office hours." And if they keep doing it, you get a little sharper about it.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:49 PM
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156.1: did you apply for your own funding?

No, for us postdocs are always hired out of faculty grants or startups or something. I don't even know how it would be possible for a postdoc to apply for their own funding.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:49 PM
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159.3: The academic equivalent of length and girth?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:50 PM
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160: Yeah, that's what I've been trying to do, although I have a bit of a learning curve to figure out when to do it. But I guess I'm not learning fast enough to satisfy the angry people....


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:52 PM
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I've been surprised by how vehemently people in my department defend the idea that first-year students shouldn't be spending any serious time on research. Especially when "has a lot of undergrad research experience" is more or less the determining factor in admitting them in the first place.

Aren't they theoretically supposed to learn something other than the specific microspecialty of their supervisor?

I don't know of a US biomedical PhD program where students have to take less than 10 classes. On the other hand in Britain as far as I can tell they take zero classes and all graduate in exactly three years.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:53 PM
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161: In Plasma Physics there are postdoc specific grants (or at least there were when I was looking at postdocs). I had multiple job offers that came down to "get your own funding and we'll give you access to the machine."


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:53 PM
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Shit, I really hijacked this thread, didn't I?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:53 PM
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Maybe you could have defused the yelling today with, "come on guys, let's not do this on Valentines."


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 5:57 PM
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Or by chucking candy hearts at him.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 6:22 PM
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I love invoking holidays on fight and domestic calls but not everyone is appreciative of comments like "let's try and show a little respect for Columbus Day" or whatever.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 6:31 PM
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Sorry, not 10 classes. 10 hours of class a week for at least the first year. That would be standard.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 6:36 PM
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I enjoy the image of 169.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 6:40 PM
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The thing I've learned from the Tesla bruhaha is that there is no such thing as bad publicity. I am now aware, which I wasn't before, that there is a string of charging stations up and down the East Coast, that they can charge you up a lot faster than I had realized, but that you have to not be an idiot and drive away with less projected mileage than distance you need to travel.

Also, I've seen lots of Tesla pictures today. That's a pretty good marketing effort on Tesla's part, in spite of the fact that the president of the company seems like bit of a jackass.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:01 PM
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160 is smart, though I think you're beyond that. Were I you, I'd probably pull the kid aside after class, explain that his questions are fascinating but fundamentally off topic, perhaps go on to note that other people in the class have expressed misgivings about how things are going (I would only mention this if I were pretty sure that the undergraduate is the problem, and it sounds like you're not there at all), and then I'd ask him very politely to can it. If he didn't then can it, I'd pull him aside a second time and tell him that it's time for him to stop. If that didn't work, I'd escalate the shit out of the situation.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:08 PM
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in spite of the fact that the president of the company seems like bit of a jackass

Especially since he more or less throws a giant party for a whole bunch of people I know every year and I'm not cool enough to get invited.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:08 PM
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I've several times had to use phase one of this plan. I've never had to go beyond that. I have, though, seen very pedagogically adept colleagues escalate the shit out of such situations -- when students are mentally ill or unable to deal. It sucks all the way around. Really, though, you don't need this. Teaching is hard enough even when things are going well.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:09 PM
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136: this person sound like a waking nightmare. Can you move offices? If not now, some time in the future? If not, I'd go with smallpox.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:10 PM
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A couple of times recently I've had the thought "maybe I should have just taken the job at [other place] and then people would be less weird and entitled and obnoxious" and then I remember that [other place] had like three people leave their group within five years mostly because of constant interpersonal conflict. I guess people are the same wherever you go.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:14 PM
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I was trying to find a candy heart that said "shut up" for you to give the kid but no dice.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:27 PM
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Somebody should do a series of "It Gets Better" videos for first-year assistant professors. You know, on the assumption that it does.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:40 PM
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159.3: 5 year-long courses from a fixed menu covering 4 ish areas. Thus you cover four areas (breadth) and at least 1 area gets two classes (depth).


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:40 PM
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Allow me to be the first to say that Bave gets it exactly right in 160.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:47 PM
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essear, if the guy is really in hotshot show-off mode to the extent that he's disrupting the class, you need to find a way to shut him down so you can get done what you need to get done. "X is a good point, but we need to get to Y and Z today, so I'm going to move along." And then just move along. You're the traffic cop here.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 7:55 PM
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You must break him.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:00 PM
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177: Having gone ivy-state-ivy-state, there really is a difference in entitlement. On one of my interviews someone said in comparing [ivy] to [state]: "At [ivy] the students treat the professors like they're the help."


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:01 PM
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160 is correct in my experience. Last semester I had a student in a non-film course who, having some idea that I was into film, would interrupt every day with some eye-roller asking whether I had seen this or that movie, not realizing he was cultivating near-universal loathing for himself. Getting him to hold all film-related questions for office hours, which he didn't really seem to enjoy coming to, was a triumph.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:05 PM
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I remember every fuckup and moment that reflects poorly on me in vivid detail.

Me too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:10 PM
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179: the main problem is that it doesn't, in fact, get better.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:33 PM
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So do we, teo.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:38 PM
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Not like I do.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:39 PM
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260: I don't even know how it would be possible for a postdoc to apply for their own funding

It's more of a thing here than in the States. The 15 pages of proposal instructions I'm reading right now, let me show you them.


Posted by: antipodestrian | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:41 PM
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BTW, it's interesting to me that this group of near-universal once-precocious kids with hedgehog* tendencies is universally siding against the precocious kid who doesn't seem to be supernarrow in his interests. Is this just the grumpiness of age?

* or is it fox? Have I said before that IMO that's the stupidest fucking metaphor that has ever gained currency? He might as well have picked a turnip and a tire iron for all the clarity he brought to the dichotomy. Oh yes, hedgehogs know many things, everybody says that. Oh wait, no they fucking don't.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:42 PM
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Well, they don't pain us the way they presumably do you. It's more like how I remember every episode of MASH.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:43 PM
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The tyranny of the precocious must be broken and who better to do it?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:43 PM
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He's not being hated for the breadth of his interests, but for his annoying attention-hogging. You're looking at introverts hating an extrovert.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:44 PM
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Next time the kid speaks up, essear should turn and point at him and, eyes wide, start chanting "NERD! NERD! NERD!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:44 PM
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And it's foxes (you know, crafty, sly?) that know many things. Hedgehogs only know how to curl up and be prickly.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:46 PM
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194: It's not a hatred of extroversion, unless by extroversion we mean chummy show-off.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:47 PM
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Well, they don't pain us the way they presumably do you.

I certainly hope not. I wouldn't wish the past week of my life on anyone.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:50 PM
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I know Bave and Cala are right that I have to learn how to keep the show-off-y kid from disrupting the class. But people asking annoying questions was a feature of basically every class I ever took. Students angrily shouting at each other was not. Isn't that the much bigger and more pathological problem?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:54 PM
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Maybe you should hand out foam bats.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:56 PM
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200 to 199, 198.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:56 PM
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I actually have a bunch of foam bats in my mom's garage. Unless she's thrown them away, which is plausible.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:58 PM
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The combination of undergrad in a grad class and math student in a physics class I think explains the unusual reaction. The other students probably think he doesn't belong in the class at all. If it was just an annoying physics grad student you probably wouldn't have that kind of outburst.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:59 PM
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198: hey, wallowing boy, unless you did something far more heinous than what you revealed here, it's time for you to stop beating the crap out of yourself. You made a mistake in the heat of the moment, you reflected on your behavior and owned up to it, you performed some acts of contrition (as a Jew, I don't really approve, but whatever), and now it's time to start forgiving yourself. That's how it works. If you need to, go scatter some bread crumbs in an icy river or whatever. But then turn that frown upside down.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 8:59 PM
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Isn't that the much bigger and more pathological problem?

For sure it is. But it sounds like you've tried to address that and been shot down by your department. And whatever happens with Mr. Shouty, the other kid could probably use a hand learning to tone it down a bit.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:00 PM
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you performed some acts of contrition (as a Jew, I don't really approve, but whatever)

Tikkun Blolam


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:01 PM
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206 didn't quite make me lol, but I did laugh, in here, where it counts.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:04 PM
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* or is it fox? Have I said before that IMO that's the stupidest fucking metaphor that has ever gained currency? He might as well have picked a turnip and a tire iron for all the clarity he brought to the dichotomy. Oh yes, hedgehogs know many things, everybody says that. Oh wait, no they fucking don't.

And so on in the same tradition, to the present age when random animals were used as euphemisms for different jobs or different towns or whatever it was.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:04 PM
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Be like the squirrel, teo.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:07 PM
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208: the guinea pig has one kind of interpersonal conflict, but it's really intense. The puppy has lots of kinds of interpersonal conflict, but they're all sort of ridiculous. Like everybody says.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:09 PM
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Wait, there's a fox, a hedgehog, and a squirrel? Okay, this is getting confusing.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:10 PM
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And a guinea pig and a puppy?!!!? Fuck it, I'm selling the whole menagerie to a British butcher.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:10 PM
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204: Thanks, I appreciate that. And I realize it's true, and that there's no point in continuing to obsess over this. It's a thing that happened, and I did some things I regret, but there's nothing to be done about it now. It's just hard to turn these feelings off like that. I'm sure they'll subside over time, but I have no doubt that this episode will continue to haunt me to some degree for the rest of my life.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:12 PM
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There's only one job and/or personality type for me.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:13 PM
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195 is obviously right, and yet ANOTHER example of why we need to learn more from Ogre from ROTN in our daily lives.

I don't think Tesla emerged from all that looking very good. At all.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:17 PM
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I don't think Tesla emerged from all that looking very good.

Assuming Broder isn't flat-out lying -- and to me at least, it still seems entirely possible that he is lying, because he's a journalist and works at the Times to boot -- I agree.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:20 PM
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I also feel like I've probably done serious, permanent damage to my relationships with a lot of people at Unfogged, which is obviously one of the least important of the effects of the incident but still bothers me a lot. I really wish I hadn't told the story the way I did, especially since I knew I wouldn't be around for the ensuing discussion and would be unable to clarify things or defend myself. By the time I did get back to the thread the discussion had gone so far that responding to specific points seemed both overwhelming and pointless. Oh well. I hope people's initial reactions to the story don't reflect the way they'll feel about me from now on, but I realize they might.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:20 PM
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The animals ate the guinea pig most likely because they were:

A. hungry
B. jealous
C. confused
D. metaphorical constructs


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:23 PM
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Teo pretty much already nobody cares, and give it a solid day and a half of not talking about it and nobody will care at all. Take that as you will, but speaking as somebody who has fucked right up plenty of times it can be quite nice.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:23 PM
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speaking as somebody who has fucked right up plenty of times it can be quite nice. And pretty soon everyone forgets about it as well.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:25 PM
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219: Thanks, and I know that's what I should do, and I will. I'm just feeling mopey tonight.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:26 PM
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I'm just feeling mopey tonight.

So now it's the dwarves you're after!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:27 PM
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Heh.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:28 PM
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I also feel like I've probably done serious, permanent damage to my relationships with a lot of people at Unfogged

Nonsense. First, Sifu's right that nobody really cares. Second, as nearly everyone in that thread agreed, it was so out of character for you that people, even people inclined to think you did something wrong, believed that there must have been mitigating circumstances. Third, we've all made serious mistakes, mistakes that later caused us to feel terribly ashamed about our actions, and so you're in good company. Heck, I just killed a guinea pig, hedgehog, fox, and puppy and passed the resulting cutlets off as veal.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:29 PM
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I mocked a dead cat.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:32 PM
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Thanks, guys. I have a friend coming to visit this weekend, so that should be a chance to take my mind off all of this and have some fun.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:32 PM
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Just, for god's sake, don't huff ScotchGard.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:33 PM
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I'm trying to come up with some terrible thing I've done that I'm nonetheless comfortable sharing with unfogged. Nothing obvious coming to mind.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:34 PM
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I'm not making any promises.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:34 PM
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Speaking of animals and oral sex, of the three "news" items I linked this morning, I can't believe that it was the "right-wing PAC simulated oral sex between a panda and Hilary Clinton" video that got zero attention.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:34 PM
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I feel like I need to send Ogre up to Alaska to tell at T-Hat. Ogre wouldn't put up with this self lacerating bullshit.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:38 PM
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Tell s/b YELL.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:38 PM
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There is a lesson in 228. As for me, the closest analog I'm coming up with is the woman in college that I had sex with because I wanted to have sex with her, even though I knew she was way more into me than I was into her. That was a genuinely shitty thing to do, and I felt HORRIBLE about it for weeks and weeks and weeks (I didn't got to the pool hall in the union or to parties where I thought she might be), and I still sometimes think about what a shit I was. But the other stuff, the really bad stuff, I mostly keep to myself.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:39 PM
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The irony of the whole thing is that I don't even like blowjobs that much.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:40 PM
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233.last: And that caterpillar ain't telling any more tales, IYKWIM.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:40 PM
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I once gave smallpox-scab-bearing blankets to this person who wouldn't stop coughing.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:41 PM
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I once gave a book to someone telling them it would cure their cholera.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:42 PM
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234: me neither. I'd much rather cuddle.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:42 PM
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237: wrong book, I bet. Otherwise, it would have worked.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:42 PM
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239: What makes you think it didn't work?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:44 PM
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Wait we're supposed to feel guilty about things like 233? This is like Ogged saying that squashing a bug was the worst thing he'd ever done. Jesus fucking Christ.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:46 PM
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It's like a bloooow-job on your wedding day
It's a free blowjob when you've already paid
It's the blowjob that you just didn't take
Who would've thought... it figures


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:47 PM
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235 -> 241


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:47 PM
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241: you're no Jew, paleo boy.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:47 PM
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I mean how much more fucking priggish can we get? Better put a cloth over your mouth or you'll swallow a fly.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:48 PM
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Jews can feel guilty about anything. It's our special power.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:49 PM
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No, no, teo, it's time for Halford's frat boy act again. He's going to be snapping towels in a most aggressive fashion. Keep back, I've seen him take down a water buffalo.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:51 PM
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246: It's our special power.

A quick scan of the headlines reveals that Jewish Man is certainly no Florida Man.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:52 PM
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No, no, teo, it's time for Halford's frat boy act again.

"Again"? I was not aware he ever stopped.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:55 PM
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248: And that's even despite the huge number of Jews in Florida.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 9:56 PM
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Once I tore the elevator panel off the ground floor in my dorm and hid it in my closet, so nobody could use the elevator for like a couple weeks. That was lame and pointless, but a different sort of deal.

Ooh once we made this kid move out of our house because he wasn't cool enough even though he was super nice to everybody -- dude just liked Riverdance, what's he supposed to do. That was pretty mean, but again, different category.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:01 PM
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But yeah the dark times are not for unfogged.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:02 PM
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And that's even despite the huge number of Jews in Florida. [emphasis added]

Right, 3.4% of the population. (Granted that might arguably be understated due to snowbirds.)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:02 PM
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But yeah the dark times are not for unfogged.

Now you tell me.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:08 PM
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253: Number, not proportion. It's a big state.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:08 PM
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I can't believe my less exciting story of malfeasance was discussed SIX YEARS AGO today.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:09 PM
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Jews can feel guilty about anything. It's our special power.

Not just guilt!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:09 PM
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257: Right, that too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:11 PM
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"um, guys? It's just particle physics. It doesn't matter. We're not solving real problems or learning useful skills. Chill the fuck out."

It's not rocket science.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:29 PM
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Where in the world is carmen sandiego fa?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:33 PM
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fa

I can't help but read this in a little dolphin voice.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:34 PM
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Okay, Peggy, calm down.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:37 PM
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fa love pa!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:39 PM
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252 gets it right, and the alternatives are either horrible over sharing or 233 style faux-shameful humblebrags.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:40 PM
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I also feel like I've probably done serious, permanent damage to my relationships with a lot of people at Unfogged

Probably not, although if you walk around with flagellation scars all the time it'll be kind of unsightly.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:43 PM
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The dingo overshares. The dugong humblebrags.


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:45 PM
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We know you want to be a badass, Halford. Maybe try a bit less hard?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:49 PM
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What are you talking about? I am sincere that I found 233 annoying, for reasons that I stated sincerely. That's not an attempt to be a a badass, which, speaking sincerely, I'm not. You may not even have consciously meant 233 as a humblebrag, but guess what, it was.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:53 PM
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Don't be passive-aggressive. It's unbecoming.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:55 PM
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Guys, chill. Seriously.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:56 PM
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I'm genuinely not upset, teo. I'm also not even a little annoyed. I am, though, tired of Halford's tough guy act. If he wants to disagree with me about something, he can do it like a grownup. He doesn't have to make oblique references to humblebrags, shaming, or fucking priggishness.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 10:59 PM
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If 268 is aggressive, it's not very passive about.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:01 PM
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And to think I was so pleased to note Halford agreeing with Sifu.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:01 PM
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And to think I was so pleased to note Halford agreeing with Sifu.

They agree on things from time to time. They're both into eating lions, for example.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:06 PM
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I'm not certain that either has ever actually eaten a lion, but they definitely both like the idea.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:16 PM
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Sure, I mean, they're not crazy.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:22 PM
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Broders response

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/that-tesla-data-what-it-says-and-what-it-doesnt/#more-180855


Posted by: Lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:23 PM
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260: On the way to somewhere that's apparently still kind of snowed over. It was a beautiful day to cross over from Tennessee to Virginia, though. I kind of wish I'd planned for some tourism-related non-programmatic activities.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:27 PM
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I kind of wish I'd planned for some tourism-related non-programmatic activities.

I planned my drive from NJ to NM a couple years ago explicitly with this in mind, and I'm glad I did.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:29 PM
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If we can get back to bitching about academia again, I've just now finally finished writing up my two-year review.* I still have to get my annual review done some time tomorrow (which takes TONS of time in my department, and involves a seven page metric and an online form with three essay sections), and then finish up my book proposal this weekend, but at least this is finished. And I'm still happier than I was in grad school.

*We do reviews at 2 and 4 years rather than the more standard 3 and 5.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:31 PM
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277: I have to say, that's a pretty convincing response.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:43 PM
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279: For similar reasons, I took a more scenic (than the usual scenic) route back from Canada which added a few days to that trip. For various reasons I won't get into, I couldn't really take a circuitous route this drive. Plus, it's the wrong time of year for many places I'd like to go.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:47 PM
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Plus, it's the wrong time of year for many places I'd like to go.

Yeah, I've run into this problem on other road trips.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-14-13 11:50 PM
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271--What I disagree with you about, VW, isn't usually very much, and when it is I've been pretty explicit about stating it. I occasionally and tonight in particular find the use of the false modesty as a means of boasting of moral superiority, as in 233, annoying. It's annoying because it's kind of a transparent attempt to have your modesty cake and eat it boastfully too. That's not so much a disagreement as a dislike of an annoying rhetorical style. If you want to let us know that you've generally been very responsible in matters sexual, or whatever, just say so. That's great! I don't know how to be much more explicit than that. This also isn't the biggest deal in the world but if we can't jump down each others throats for minor flaws than this place has no purpose.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:05 AM
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That's not so much a disagreement as a dislike of an annoying rhetorical style.

What I think is going on between you two is that you find each other's rhetorical style annoying, and this occasionally leads each of you to misinterpret the actual point the other is making.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:10 AM
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284: as I said above, I don't have any problem with your disagreeing with me, even in your usual aggressive style. I'd just prefer that you do it like a grownup. Actually, I thought our recent arguments were minor enough that I was surprised by your dickishness in this thread.

Speaking of which, I've said repeatedly that I've made some really stupid and shitty mistakes in my life. I've also never hidden the fact that most of those mistakes, save for the episode above, didn't involve sex. In fact, I thought I said as much in the comment that got under your skin. Regardless, if that bugs you enough that you're going to call me a bunch of names -- rather than actually engaging with me substantively -- you can go fuck yourself. But if you want to argue about substance, I'm fine with that.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:20 AM
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285: truly, I'm not sure why you feel the need to get in the middle of this, teo. And for what it's worth, I find Halford's rhetorical style, so long as he's not aiming his guns at someone who doesn't feel like being attacked, very funny. Again, he's usually quite up front about his opinions, and I like that. In this thread, though, he chose to call me a bunch of names without actually saying anything to me directly. Fuck that.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:22 AM
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I'm not sure why you feel the need to get in the middle of this, teo.

Because I like both of you and dislike it when people I like get in pointless arguments based on misunderstandings. In this case it's Halford misunderstanding you, but it's been the other way around in the past. I realize interfering in this sort of thing is generally just as pointless, but sometimes I feel compelled to do it anyway.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:30 AM
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HOW CAN I BE MORE DIRECT?? I mean, I could for sure be wrong, but I've tried to be direct. Also, where did I call you a name? I think you called me a "frat boy" which is technically sort of true though I dropped out while still a pledge.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:33 AM
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288: fair enough, but I'm really not sure when I've misunderstood Halford in the past. If you'd like to point me to a thread, I'll be happy to take a look. I think he and I have had very few disagreements through the years -- until recently, that is -- but I well might be misremembering.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:35 AM
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If you'd like to point me to a thread, I'll be happy to take a look.

I'm thinking specifically of the fisheries thread from a couple weeks ago, but I'm sure there have been other examples. But my point is not to rehash old threads. I agree that you haven't had that many actual disagreements; I see this as mainly a clash of preferred argumentative tones.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:39 AM
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289: oh, fuck, you're going to make me reconstruct the thread? Fine, neither 241 nor 245 were directed at me. Instead, they were both exclamations of disgust about something you imagined I wrote. And then in 268, you wanted to know what I was talking about. You being an a dick, that's what. Since then, though, you've been admirably direct, it's true.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:42 AM
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291: yes, Halford seems to have gotten pissed at me in the fisheries thread. And I do have the sense that he's been pissed at me since then. Honestly, though, that's fine. Like I said, I find him funny when he's direct, less so when he's not. As long as he's directly pissed at me, I'm perfectly content.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:44 AM
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Sorry, this is super boring for anyone who might be awake at this hour, but Halford, if you'd just call me a prig directly, that would be great. I can then tell you that I think you're misreading me. Or I can tell you to fuck off. Or I can agree. Beyond that, I truly don't care. And if you want to stir the pot*, awesome.

* I'm assuming this is what teo means.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:49 AM
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Meanwhile, the earth is going to be destroyed by an asteroid in about a day and a half, so let's give it up for the Mayans after all.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:53 AM
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No, teo, you can't have a blowjob from one of the Mayans.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:53 AM
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I am honestly surprised that 241 is so objectionable, but supposing that it and 245 are really very objectionable or touch on a very sore spot or whatever, I don't see how the lack of explicit direct address makes them worse. (Both comments could very easily become directly addressed to you, VW, if their final periods were replaced with a ", VW.".)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:54 AM
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No, teo, you can't have a blowjob from one of the Mayans.

I think that's more their call than yours, but I admit it's improbable.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:54 AM
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And I'd ask you, neb, the same thing I asked teo in 287: why, for the third or fourth time recently, have you interjected yourself into a spat between me and Halford?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 1:03 AM
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Which is to say, are you trying to prolong a very boring argument that you've already suggested you find distasteful?


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 1:05 AM
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(Anyway, 241, had it stood alone, wasn't at all objectionable, which is why I responded to it with what I thought would be received as humor. But when coupled with 245 and later comments, 241 seemed, in retrospect, to be somewhat more dickish. That said, really, this is too fucking stupid to be allowed to continue.)


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 1:08 AM
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295. Actually there was another Tunguska event this morning. Nobody dead, plenty injured.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 3:09 AM
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He might as well have picked a turnip and a tire iron

What the fuck is a tire iron?


Posted by: Opinionated Archilochus | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 3:11 AM
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302. More video here.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 3:13 AM
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Something about eating lions is a big violation along my Haidt purity axis. You just don't eat predators. Would you eat a hyena or vulture? It's just deeply icky in a completely irrational way.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:22 AM
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302/304: I am very excited about that. Maybe this will shake loose a little more funding to study near earth asteroids. I came *this*close* to going into astronomy specifically to study NEAs, but was prevented due to stupid factors beyond my control including some pushback from my then-fiancee, who didn't want to make the necessary sacrifices. My resentment, let me show you it.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:27 AM
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But I'd bet you'd eat a predatory fish -- tuna? Salmon? Taboos are weird. (Not claiming to be free of them, but they really don't make sense.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:28 AM
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307: Yeah, fish are different. I'd eat eagle with a little reservation, but somehow lions, tigers, and bears (Oh my!) are in a special category for me.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:32 AM
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302, 304: Last I had heard, astronomers are saying that this event almost certainly has no connection with the asteroid near-miss today. I am finding that my priors are not pleased with that thought even one little bit. On the one hand my intuitive Occam's Razor*, on the other hand, people who actually know stuff. I'm surprised how strongly I seem to "want" to believe they are linked.

*And it's not like I reasoned anything out, my invocation of Occam's iscompletely post hoc. More of a gut reaction. Kahnemann probably would have something interesting to say about it.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:34 AM
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309. Is your reaction due to the fact that it seems instinctively (but I suspect wrongly) to emphasise how much dangerous shit there is out there, or because correlation damn well ought to imply causation?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:41 AM
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309: It has been entertaining hearing spokespeople sound like they're in the first act of a monster movie, explaining that there's no need to panic and the giant explosion has nothing to do with the approaching asteroid.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:42 AM
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if we can't jump down each others throats for minor flaws than this place has no purpose.

I might put this phrase on my office wall.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:54 AM
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You just don't eat predators. Would you eat a hyena or vulture?

Vultures are scavengers, though, right? Avoiding carrion-eaters is a fairly justifiable taboo. For no real reason, I assume that eagle wouldn't taste very good.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:55 AM
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310: More the latter, but it really is not that correlation ought to imply causation, but some intuitive sense of the likelihood of unlikely events (maybe it is a bias for assuming correlation implies common causes for *very* unlikely events). But per Kahnemann, our intuitive statistician generally sucks, and probably massively sucks for very rare events (and particularly ones which involve events on an actual cosmic scale).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:56 AM
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the likelihood of unlikely events

This graphic hasn't been linked already, has it?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 7:58 AM
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315. Is that suggesting that on average roughly four Americans are killed by an asteroid every year? What an exciting country you live in!


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:02 AM
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Something about eating lions is a big violation along my Haidt purity axis. You just don't eat predators. Would you eat a hyena or vulture?

But vultures eat carrion, and hyenas are just dirty dogs. A lion is a noble beast, fit to enter my belly.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:07 AM
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For no real reason, I assume that eagle wouldn't taste very good.

My old school library would display a new leaf of Audubon's original ginormous Birds Of America book every month. A surprising number of the descriptions are of how the birds taste.

Ever since seeing it I've been fascinated with the idea of eating birds that eat nothing but fish. Audubon definitely found kingfishers to taste peculiar.

Anyone out there eaten a pelican? Or a sandpiper? Surely in those lean years in the Celtic countries people must have subsided on puffin.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:09 AM
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305: what about snake, or gator?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:12 AM
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313: Right, those are my examples for a more extreme case, but predatory meat eaters also have their issues - it's not like they are especially clean in how they eat, nor do they only eat fresh kills. But the root of the thing is completely irrational. You could clean up hyena (or lion) meat quite well, and cook it thoroughly, perhaps make it really spicy as an additional backstop against bugs. It would still be nasty to me though.

Also eagle tastes like freedom, I bet. Delicious, delicious freedom.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:12 AM
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317 was meant to be facetious, but I see that apo said it more or less seriously.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:13 AM
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nosflow you have consumed the mighty bear at some point, haven't you? Good stuff?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:14 AM
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But what happens when the meteor risk gets collateralized?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:15 AM
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The people of St Kilda used to eat a lot of gannet and fulmar. Unsurprisingly, they were relocated at their own request to somewhere with shops.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:15 AM
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319: I've eaten both and they tasted better than chicken. Maybe it's just predatory mammals I'm averse to eating. Respect for my fellow meat-eating mammal-bros. Perhaps I should stop eating all mammals and stick to fish, birds, and reptiles.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:15 AM
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322: I … no? You mean the animal, right? I have never consumed the flesh of the mighty bear.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:16 AM
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re: 318

People on at least one of the Hebridean islands still go (once a year) and harvest young gannets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sula_Sgeir


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:17 AM
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Oh, huh. For some reason I had it in my head that you'd cooked bear heart.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:17 AM
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I have never consumed the flesh (or the spirit) of any mammalian or reptilian predator, to my knowledge. Only predatory fishies.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:18 AM
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Fishy-wishies, as we style them in my house.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:18 AM
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I've eaten bear, once that I recall. Long ago. None of my hunter friends hunt them, so I don't expect to try it again.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:23 AM
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They're omnivores, like turkeys I guess, and like turkeys, I'd think the vast majority of their diet is vegetation.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:25 AM
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I thought a not insubstantial portion was made up of bugs and such.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:26 AM
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Wikipedia claims otherwise!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:26 AM
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?? Pigs are scavengers. People happily eat farmed shrimp. Locust tastes OK.

Any Norwegians or Japanese here? I've seen whale meat in grocery stores both places, no special display or side-eyed looks that I noticed in the stores there.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:28 AM
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It's been 15 years at least, but I recall ostrich as a very fine meat. At least done up at that formerly trendy southwestern place across the street from my then office that ended up as a bank.

Why can't I remember the name of the restaurant?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:30 AM
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I've eaten alligator twice. The time in a restaurant, it was very good. The time at the State Fair, it was gamey and not much tasty. I've had rattlesnake sausage that was very good, but sausage is all about the spices more than the meat, so.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:30 AM
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I wouldn't have any problem eating (non-endangered) predators, but wouldn't eat primates. Too close.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:33 AM
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336: Moe's Southwest Grill?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:35 AM
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338. You shouldn't eat endangered anything, which includes a shitload of primates, cuddly or otherwise.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:37 AM
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Alligator was very tasty when I had it, but it was deep fried chunks, so hardly surprising or necessarily reflective of underlying tastiness. Haven't tried snake yet.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:38 AM
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Red Sage.

They didn't have ostrich on the menu, just got some every now and then. And the bartender knew me and the few folks I'd regularly come with, and would tell us to order it when they had it.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:39 AM
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They have ostrich all the time at the local butcher shop that indirectly started this subthread, but I haven't bought any because I'm not quite sure how to cook it. This is also what has kept me from picking up some bear.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:40 AM
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336. Ostriches mainly eat vegetation, with the odd bug, like chickens. Not predators. But they are good eating - quite widely farmed now outside Africa.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:40 AM
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343. Try one of these and report back.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:42 AM
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This is also what has kept me from picking up some bear.

Allow me to be the first to recommend Chain Drive.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:43 AM
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Huh, apparently ostrich is super easy to cook. I should really get on that.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:43 AM
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335: I have a friend who has a hilarious story about eating whale meat on a trip to Japan, but I would feel weird about telling his story on a public blog.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:47 AM
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-nosflow you have consumed the mighty bear at some point, haven't you? Good stuff?
-I ... no? You mean the animal, right?

...

This is also what has kept me from picking up some bear.

I try not to eat the extremely low-hanging fruit.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:47 AM
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There's a yak farm not far from here, and I've been thinking I should try it.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:48 AM
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Dammit, apwned.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:49 AM
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I had ostrich once at a restaurant. Quite tasty. And it did not taste like chicken.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:50 AM
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The Granta food issue had a good story partially about eating whale meat, "First Catch Your Puffin".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:50 AM
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352 -- More like filet mignon.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:50 AM
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Ostrich is good. I am going to eat dried ostrich meat this Sunday while I spend an ungodly amount of time on a layover in Johannesburg airport. My plan is to buy a bottle of wine, a bunch of spiced dried ostrich, and find a corner where I can hide and get quietly btocked.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:51 AM
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I DON'T GET IT YOU GUYS I THINK A BEAR WOULD BE DELICIOUS NOT JUST TO FILL MY MOUTH WITH BUT ALSO TO BURY MY FACE IN.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 8:59 AM
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309: I couldn't figure out why the reports I was hearing didn't address this, but since it turns out that the near miss is tomorrow, not last night, that omission is less glaring.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 9:05 AM
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Moby Dick has always made me want to have a nice, thick whale steak, and every time I read it, I'm baffled that the whalers themselves, stuck with nothing but salt beef and hard tack for 3 years at a time, mostly eschewed it. WTF, Nantucketers?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 9:06 AM
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As farmed ostrich grows more popular, does that mean ostrich plumes are likely to come back as fashion items? I could use a new hat.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 9:08 AM
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BTW, the funniest thing about 233 isn't the delightful exchange that followed, but how closely it hewed to how my relationship with BOGF started, except for the part where I didn't want to have sex with her either. I wishy-washed myself into 6 stupid years.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 9:10 AM
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Quasi-related: Supercool bird illustrations. The trumpet manucode (bottom left) is sort of freaky.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 9:16 AM
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"Trumpet Manucode" would make an awesome pseud.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 9:26 AM
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I was going to say the same for "Farmed Ostrich." It's more of a folk pseud.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 9:33 AM
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There was an effort to get British people to eat whale during the second world war. It didn't work and it's still remembered as an example of privation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_meat - I didn't know, though, that they ran it through some kind of mid-century processing to "remove the fishy flavour", which may explain why it was godawful. And I certainly didn't know it was marketed as "Whacon".

Actually, following the link to the archive source, whacon was introduced after the original failure to sell fresh whale.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 9:55 AM
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I think I've reported my whale sashimi in Japan. It can be found in supermarkets (or was then) and is on the expensive side but not exactly prestigious either - more dwindling into a novelty.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:02 AM
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I too once had whale sashimi in Japan, and I remember it similarly--I was served it only that one time, and I don't recall seeing it in shops or on restaurant menus.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:05 AM
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There's something uniquely awful about fishy-tasting meat that doesn't come from fish. Whale (the cut I tasted, at least) was sufficiently like fish in texture that it wasn't bad, but I had some alligator that was pretty nasty that way. (I think it was a fatty cut; the less-fatty tail meat is pretty good.)


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:13 AM
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I can't recall is AB ate whale while in Japan. I assume she would have - she tried just about everything else - but if she did, it didn't result in any lasting impression/anecdote.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:18 AM
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The thought of whale meat makes me sad. OTOH, I think I would happily try humanely sourced human.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:21 AM
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I suppose I may have eaten whale when I was in Japan. Most of the time I had no idea what I was eating. My sister-in-law's friends tooks us out to fancy restaurants and we were served beautiful plates of food most of which I could not identify. Pre-vegetarian peep was an unconcerned, adventurous eater, and I enjoyed just about all of it.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:26 AM
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318: I have had murre/turr, which are closely related to puffins! Their muscle and their eggs do taste like fish. And not in a pleasant way. Somewhere in the literature there is a comparative study of the flavour of a range of seabird eggs but I can never find it.

As part of joining Canada, Newfoundland signed a exemption from the Migratory Bird Act that allowed/allows them to carry on a traditional turr (aka murres, aka Uria lomvia/aalge) hunt. My friend's father sent me down a few (along with his wife to cook them for me) because he knew I was studying them and it's always good to eat your study species (at least in wildlife). My friend was stationed at a lighthouse once and got to eat all kind of weird birds.

Have I told the turr joke yet here?
Q: How do you tell if turr is done?
A: You put a rock in with the bird and when the rock is tender, the turr is done.


Posted by: hydrobatidae | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:33 AM
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My vegetarian friend once innocently ate sea turtle because she was told it was deer and didn't want to be rude to her hosts. She didn't say how it was but she didn't have much to compare it too.

In agreement with above, alligator bits battered, deep fried, and dipped in hot sauce are so so good. But wild-caught alligator is not as good because it tastes muddy (c.f. some wild-caught catfish).


Posted by: hydrobatidae | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:36 AM
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OTOH, I think I would happily try humanely sourced human.

I sometimes chew on my cuticles.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:38 AM
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I'm a total hypocrite, though, because it drives me crazy when other people chew on their cuticles.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:39 AM
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My vegetarian friend once innocently ate sea turtle because she was told it was deer and didn't want to be rude to her hosts.

Is sea turtle less vegetarian than deer?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:44 AM
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Just less abundant, Sifu.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 10:57 AM
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What does that have to do with anything?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:11 AM
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Let's see, I've had whale and puffin. Both were pretty awful. Alligator and snake a few times, both were fine but nothing spectacular. Ostrich is great, everyone should eat as much as possible. Still haven't had lion. Bear meat, pretty bad, bear sausage was excellent. I had raccoon recently and it was surprisingly non terrible. Although I have a suspicion that it wasn't really a raccoon.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:14 AM
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humanely sourced human

My own thought process in trying to imagine the scenario that would allow for this is creeping me out.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:16 AM
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Oh, on my .tiff with VW, a morning review reveals that I was in fact being kind of a dick and uncharitably misreading him which I'll cop to and apologize for, and is sort of my thing, but not passive aggressive. I actually wasn't aware that we had a beef before. So, sorry, Wafes. But do NOT call me passive aggressive -- I WILL cut you.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:17 AM
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Oh, on my .tiff with VW

Was this autocorrect or a very nerdy joke?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:19 AM
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Although I have a suspicion that it wasn't really a raccoon.

It was albatross. Honest.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:19 AM
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381 second is correct. BUT NOT NERDY. Where the fuck is Ogre?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:22 AM
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377: I'm assuming that the vegetarian in question was alarmed to be eating a rare creature. But maybe I'm making a stupid assumption about all sea turtles being rare/threatened/endangered.

Or maybe the story is simply that the vegetarian was surprised by the meat-n-switch.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:23 AM
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I've had . . . puffin.

I really liked puffins when I was a kid -- to look at, not to eat, you monster. One of the traumatic incidents of my childhood was going to Puffin Island when we were camping up in Canada with a big bag of breadcrumbs I'd torn up only to be told I couldn't feed them. I was so sad and disappointed. But the puffins were cool.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:24 AM
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California Condor tastes like chicken Spotted Owl.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:25 AM
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It was albatross. Honest.

Stormy petrel on a stick!


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:27 AM
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I had the puffin in Iceland.* It was about as tasty as you'd expect, so it's not like I'm sitting around at home chewing the meat off their cute little bodies for a snack.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:27 AM
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379: Could be volunteers who sign up like organ donors. I'd certainly be willing to have the non-transplantable bits of me cooked up and eaten by freaks and weirdos. No point in it all going to waste. I've mentioned before that there ought to be a cannibalism equivalent of the Necrocard.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:34 AM
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I guess semi-on-topic, I really want to eat more horse meat, don't see what the British are so mad about, and am so angry that it's illegal to do so in California.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:35 AM
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389: didn't that end up being a little controversial for Armin Meiwes?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:42 AM
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384: Oh! I didn't realize you were seriously looking for an answer - or at least an overly serious answer.

She was mostly a vegetarian for ethical reasons to do with how meat was raised but had also just gotten out of the habit. She was invited to a first communion party for a very poor family and was honoured to be offered meat so didn't feel justified in imposing her morals on these people. They knew she was a vegetarian. But it turned out that it was turtle that the father of the family, who was a fisherman, had caught. She said she still would have eaten the meat just because of the circumstances but she felt much worse since instead of being a hunted wild and abundant deer, it was a hunted, wild and endangered sea turtle.

Another vegetarian friend was tempted into trying Sandhill Crane (long-lived and few offspring per year mean it's not the best species to hunt) and got a mouthful of shot for her efforts (although now she's a hunter, so).


Posted by: hydrobatidae | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:46 AM
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392.2: got it. And I could see, if you didn't eat meat for resource-consumption reasons, making an exception for wild caught deer. And, I guess, pigeon and feral hog. And rat. And, uh, kitten.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:52 AM
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California Condor tastes like chicken Spotted Owl.

I'd rather eat a condor than a quail.
Yes I would.
If I only could,
I surely would.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:57 AM
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394: el condor pasta?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 11:58 AM
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391: To be fair, the stabbing him to death bit I'd like to see remain illegal. Also he was only convicted of murder, not cannibalism, so maybe there's hope if you live in Germany.

The great thing about the Meiwes case is that he interviewed other people before settling on Brandes, but some chickened out and some were rejected for being too mentally fucked up. How crazy do you have to be to be rejected for murdering by a cannibal? There ought to be a Hallmark card for rejecting someone as a candidate for murder and cannibalism, something that lets them down gently.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:08 PM
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No more what now? The killing has yet to be described as a tragedy for women, probably because in the continuing clustertragedy that constitutes female representation in the media... (I also read a straight news story that contained a line something like "The blonde was shot four times...")

I will take this carnivore-on-carnivore foodie boasting seriously when one of you cops to cooking and eating a pitcher plant.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:12 PM
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hydrobatidae, I was glad to see the explanation of vegetarianism in 392.2, since it pretty much matches my own, but is often difficult for people to understand. "Mostly vegetarian" for ethical reasons (and habit) but not the ones you think. I've had people become actually angry with me when they know me as vegetarian for the most part, then they witness me enjoying venison or something. Yet there's really no inconsistency.

I'm glad this isn't viewed as a completely bizarre way of being.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:35 PM
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el condor pasta

In the libertarian regulation-free dreamworld, this would be the name of a restaurant. It would be ultra high-end, on a scale that would make El Bulli seem like Arby's by comparison, and it would be in business for the week or so that it would take to consume all the California Condors.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:45 PM
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398.1 I'm very consistent in not eating meat of any sort or fish, but not particularly ethically consistent since I eat dairy and eggs and wear leather shoes. I guess it would seem wrong for anything I do to make any sense.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 12:56 PM
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399 - The Freshman b


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 1:22 PM
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398: Oh, you should not hold me up to such standards. I was once vegetarian 'except for beef' because I'd get mad at my mostly-vegetarian friends for their fish exemption. I also tried (and succeeded!) in convincing them to take up hunting.


Posted by: hydrobatidae | Link to this comment | 02-15-13 2:51 PM
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378: Although I have a suspicion that it wasn't really a raccoon.

The raccoon yelled. "Don't shoot!", but Halford thought it might be a trick.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-16-13 1:26 PM
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401: That's what the gentleman's C has become with grade inflation (and gentlemen now an endangered species).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-16-13 1:30 PM
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404: endangered and also terrible eating, for dietary and related reasons. Like bear, that way.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02-16-13 1:44 PM
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On one ski trip back in the day, my internal monologue running short story that I would never write was "Hunting the Bull Whitey at Aspen."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-16-13 1:51 PM
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soup biscuit!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-16-13 1:59 PM
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407: Jesus!

Everyone!



Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02-16-13 2:06 PM
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407: Soup found religion!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-16-13 2:11 PM
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407+1:


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02-16-13 2:12 PM
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