As a tangent, deed restrictions (like the racial ones that often existed here) always seemed strange to me, as a contract issue. It's a contract where the bound party doesn't really have a counterparty with which they can negotiate changing it.

these mixed black-Jewish neighborhoods in Detroit because Orthodox communities walk to shul on Saturdays

Mixed black-Jewish neighborhoods in Detroit? When? Where?

I remember Southfield and Oak Park in particular. I got the impression there were others.

3: That was in the 90s?

Also you spelled Ta-Nehisi's name wrong. You better fix it before he comes over and smites you.

I was going to say Southfield, but my understanding is that it wasn't so much a "mixed" neighborhood as it was some Jews were too poor to move further out again once black people moved into an area of former white flight.

Yeah, I had friends especially in Southfield. Or rather, I dated a guy from there and knew his circle of friends.

I don't think it was a matter of poverty, although the black families that lived there were not poor, either. What I saw was a mixed upper middle class neighborhood.

I wasn't paying super close attention. I'm sure all that was less uniform than I remember. But "poverty" was definitely not the explanation as to why the Jews were there.

5 matches my understanding as well.

When I lived in the Detro metro area in the 1970s I don't recall there being black people living in Oak Park or Southfield. They were suburbs that white people (including Jews)had fled to.

That was poorly phrased. I meant relative poverty that kept people from moving to eg Bloomfield Hills (an affirmatively rich town) after already having moved from Detroit proper into Southfield. But also, as you say, for the orthodox the cost of moving an orthodox community.

I also don't remember communities of Orthodox Jews. It could be that 10-year old peep was not the most astute observer of human behavior.

10 year old peep is also not late 90s, though. Maybe those communities weren't yet in their late-90s composition.

I have a vague impression that there's been significant movement of Orthodox Jews to the Detroit suburbs recently (like, past 20 years) because cheap. Let's see if I can find some evidence to support this semi-memory of a factoid!

11: That's true. I do recall some talk at the time about white people moving to more distant suburbs to avoid the black people that would be coming soon.

12: Oh! That would do a lot to restore the reputation of young peep, social observer!

Sadly for young peep, 12 is totally antisemitic.

15: What do you mean? Who doesn't like a bargain?

My totally-fallible memory was that the group that I knew socially had all gone to k-12 together and always lived within walking distance to the same shul, etc. So I assume the community was at least intact since the early 80s. Maybe over the 80s the mid-upper black families were moving in.

Which is slightly longer than 20 years ago, is my point. More like 30+.

because cheap

Whereas the burned-out husk of the urban core is expensive?

I just looked it up on wikipedia, and I'm very surprised to find out that Huntington Woods where my family lived in the 1970s was 96% white in the and only 1% African-American in the 2010 census.

19 -- I meant from other parts of the country, particularly we York. But there doesn't seem to be much evidence of that so maybe it's just a story I heard somewhere.

New

To the extent that TNC's article is about unscrupulous (Jewish) speculators buying cheap properties left behind by white flight and selling them dear to black families willing to move up, I don't see that the non-participation of Orthodox Jews (to the extent it's statistically valid and not a folk observation) is that major an omission.

He's writing about a time decades before your observations; a time when the presence of Jews and/or immigrants was enough to render a neighborhood 'integrated' -- and the presence of any blacks enough to make the neighborhood all black for redlining purposes -- which might provide an alternate explanation for lessened participation in white flight. At least before 1960.

When you're talking about 80s and 90s, you've got all sorts of lifestyle things going on, including walking to schul, walking home from work on Friday afternoon, fewer women working outside the home, and a bunch of other things I haven't thought of, that distinguish away car centered suburban life.

What I've heard about, but don't know about, is the phenomenon of speculators encouraging white flight with 'you've got to get out while there's still some equity, you'll lose it all once they get here.' I should probably read something well researched on this subject.

24: You mean blockbusting?

Right. It's not been a part of my life up to now, and I wonder how much of what I think I know about it is actually urban legend.

When you're talking about 80s and 90s

Well, I hadn't been until the thread got going, and I had to pin down exactly what I knew and what I didn't know.

The way the narrative had originally been framed to me, this would have been an all century phenomenon, concurrent with the stuff Coates was describing. It seems no one else has heard this as a narrative arc, though.

24: blockbusting was/is a real thing. Ken Jackson's Crabgrass Frontier is a great book on suburbanization, though it's dated (especially given that it doesn't grapple at all with the ongoing process of gentrification of major cities). Kevin Kruse's White Flight is probably an even better book, though much, much narrower. Be warned, though, neither of those books cures cholera.

Everything I know about blockbusting I learned from All In The Family.

Why do I love the Internet? Because not only can one find a plot summary of a 40-year-old TV episode, but the actual episode itself.

I have a blockbuster in my family history (great-grandfather, from whom my grandfather estranged himself, though probably not for that reason).

The scholarly reading I've done on this was a long time ago but I remember it as pretty good (American Apartheid).

But I really came into this thread to share a remarkable story about two Jewish women in the 1960s who wanted to foster an integrated neighborhood and ended up creating a nationally recognized one.

When twin sisters Doris Polsky and Shirley Melvin launched a real estate company in 1965, they had a vision for West Mount Airy, the Northwest Philadelphia community where they lived.

They envisioned a neighborhood where whites and blacks, gays and straights, could live in harmony.

"What we wanted was an integrated community," Polsky said. "We had wonderful neighbors who were right with us."

Their dream has blossomed into a national model..

Despite many obstacles, Polsky, now 84, and Melvin, who died July 21 of heart failure, were largely successful in helping to build West Mount Airy into what the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development and others have hailed as one of the best-integrated communities in the country..

Kevin Kruse's White Flight is probably an even better book

Wow, that is him. I DJ'd with Kevin at UNC's student radio station way back in the early 90s.

Whelp, I just watched a whole episode of All in the Family for the first time in 25 years.

24: Yup, blockbusting was real, and was often encouraged by the realtors in our town. Back in the 60s and early 70s, my parents were involved in efforts to enforce the Fair Housing Act in order to help keep our integrated neighborhood integrated. They served as volunteer racial testers to help prove racial steering on the part of the realtors. (You send a white couple and a black couple with the same requirements to a realtor and note the differences in the properties they are shown. Generally, the black couple would only be shown properties in black or integrated neighborhoods, while the white couple would not be shown any properties in an integrated neighborhood unless they specifically requested it.) They brought home stories of neighbors (who had no intention of moving) who had been told just that kind of warning by a realtor looking to drum up business.

29 - It's discussed (mostly in passing) in Mike Royko's wonderful Boss; my recollection is that a white liberal who owned an apartment in the area found a couple African-American guys who were willing to try to indicate Bridgeport, where the Daley family lived. After the ensuing riot, the white guy arrived at his house to discover a duly notarized multi-year lease to some white people and was told that it would do him a lot of good to sell his house to someone without a lot of funny Commie ideas.

32: yup, that's Kevin. Although he's tenured at Princeton, he still manages to be a good guy.

Von Wafer's iced with him..

35: "Integrate" -> "indicate" is pretty creative on something's part. Whether it be snarkout's brain or snarkout's phone.

38 - In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of the Map, inhabited by Animals and Beggars; and in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography.

How Cultural Politics is Worse Than No Politics At All

Incredibly long and prolix analysis of The Help and Django Unchained by Adolph Reed (psst...he is black). Last two paragraphs:

The tendency to craft political critique by demanding that we fix our gaze in the rearview mirror appeals to an intellectual laziness. Marking superficial similarities with familiar images of oppression is less mentally taxing than attempting to parse the multifarious, often contradictory dynamics and relations that shape racial inequality in particular and politics in general in the current moment. Assertions that phenomena like the Jena, Louisiana, incident, the killings of James Craig Anderson and Trayvon Martin, and racial disparities in incarceration demonstrate persistence of old-school, white supremacist racism and charges that the sensibilities of Thomas Dixon and Margaret Mitchell continue to shape most Americans' understandings of slavery do important, obfuscatory ideological work. They lay claim to a moral urgency that, as Mahmood Mamdani argues concerning the rhetorical use of charges of genocide, enables disparaging efforts to differentiate discrete inequalities and appropriate to generate historically specific causal accounts of them as irresponsible dodges that abet injustice by temporizing in its face.38 But more is at work here as well.

Insistence on the transhistorical primacy of racism as a source of inequality is a class politics. It's the politics of a stratum of the professional-managerial class whose material location and interests, and thus whose ideological commitments, are bound up with parsing, interpreting and administering inequality defined in terms of disparities among ascriptively defined populations reified as groups or even cultures. In fact, much of the intellectual life of this stratum is devoted to "shoehorning into the rubric of racism all manner of inequalities that may appear statistically as racial disparities."39 And that project shares capitalism's ideological tendency to obscure race's foundations, as well as the foundations of all such ascriptive hierarchies, in historically specific political economy. This felicitous convergence may help explain why proponents of "cultural politics" are so inclined to treat the products and production processes of the mass entertainment industry as a terrain for political struggle and debate. They don't see the industry's imperatives as fundamentally incompatible with the notions of a just society they seek to advance. In fact, they share its fetishization of heroes and penchant for inspirational stories of individual Overcoming. This sort of "politics of representation" is no more than an image-management discourse within neoliberalism. That strains of an ersatz left imagine it to be something more marks the extent of our defeat. And then, of course, there's that Upton Sinclair point.

39: "This is not a response".

And why is Coates looking at post-war Chicago instead of the contemporary Collapse of Black Wealth in Prince George's County? Prospect, 11/21/12

"Prince George's County was a symbol of African American prosperity. Then came the housing crisis."

bob mcmanus, assignment editor for the world.

I'm pretty sure that Reed didn't see the movie. Or if he did see the movie, he watched a cut I didn't have access to. But yes, he is black, so that gives him all kinds of cultural authority (oh, the irony).

Oh, the cholera.

Cholera should no longer concern us.

Quick question, VW—do I have to read the book to be cured of cholera, or is just buying it sufficient?

26 -- Blockbusting is how my parents (white) afforded their first house, in University City, MO. We had black and Jewish neighbors, although some of them were University-immigrants, which befuddled the city. (Ethiopian woman, on a form with choices `white' and `black', told to choose `white'.)

And why is Coates looking at post-war Chicago instead of the contemporary Collapse of Black Wealth in Prince George's County?

Because, er, someone else has already looked at that? Monica Potts? She wrote about it in TAP and everything.

47: you only have to but it. But like any inoculation, you'll need boosters. Plan to buy a fresh copy every six months or so. Just to be safe.

Or, better still, plan ahead! Buy a dozen now and store eleven of them in a cool, dry place. Remove them from shrink-wrap as needed.

31: Mount Airy isn't just good, it's also beautiful, IIRC. I grew up in the outer Philly burbs and my mom had a good friend out there she knew from various woo-woo circles who used to make paintings of orgone.

31,52: Never heard of Mount Airy until I read Witt's comment today -- and then a couple of hours later I follow the link from Ta-Nehisi's blog to the controversial article, "Being White in Philadelphia", and the report talks about the neighborhood where he lives -- Mount Airy. Coincidence or conspiracy?

53: Interesting. My only association with Mount Airy and Pennsylvania is the beautiful lodge (and Girl with Ball).

There's a place near Columbus called Mount Air. We know it mostly as a speed trap.

I never knew there was a Mount Airy other than the one in North Carolina that was the basis for Mayberry.

56: Cincy has one too.

There's one in Maryland too.

There's one here:
http://www.etsy.com/listing/125362057/bill-clinton-the-lady-killer-hq-11x17

bob mcmanus, assignment editor for the world.

Excuse me, I believe that's my role.

Speaking of which, peep -- if you need to clean your brain after that trainwreck of an article -- you might want to read this rebuttal.

Mount Airy, Philadelphia, is full of absolutely gorgeous houses, some in better repair than others. It is also one of the most stable racially integrated communities in the country -- most neighborhoods are temporarily "integrated" on their way to resegregation.

re the article linked in 60, if you really want to feel the brotherhood of man, stay for the comments.

56 is right.

Topically, I think my own neighborhood weathered the waves of white flight and rust belting because of the need for Orthodox Jewish people to walk to the synagog. I have one (rich yuppie) neighbor with a house on my street that he only lives in on Friday and Saturday plus strange holidays that move every year. That said, there aren't really any black families except Jerry's.

I also think 56 is an accurate statement of apo's knowledge of Mount Airy. Why would he lie about that?

Anyway, I keep meaning to learn what the various hats mean. Also, why all the black clothes before five.

65: Antisemite.

66: Am not.

Are so. You come from the same state as Chuck Hegel.

And so, the Mobys find synthesis.

Anti-Nebraskan.

Since when is Nebraskan a protected category.

One of the Mobys is at a bar.

But which one?

69: I contain multitudes, and not just in my capacity as an American paying taxes to keep Guantanamo open.

I'm at a bar drinking 10% beer.

This is a wonderful development! First Rusty Nails, now strong craft beer? Can Fernet be far behind?

Actually, I think it's Canadian alcoholic-fodder.

La Fin Du Monde is the name.

Fucking French people. Who knows what they mean?

Also, I'm going to need to murder whoever played "Harvest Moon" twice.

Oh yeah from Unibrow. Not my thing, but very strong indeed.

I always confuse Neil Young with Neil Diamond.

broue!

Fin Du Monde from Unibroue is one of my all-time favorites (My wife preferes Trois Pistoles... no accounting for taste).

81: There is a craft beer with more ABV called something like Strong Hopper. It tastes better, but the name makes me think of frogs using steroids. Plus, it costs more.

Oh, huh. My dad once told me with a certain pride that my lovely great aunt and great uncle who lived in Philadelphia had moved to their neighborhood out of a commitment to integrated neighborhoods. And where they lived was Mt. Airy.

83: No comprende.

And Chambly is a fun town to visit. It's a tourist trap, but it's a tourist trap in Quebec aimed at other Canadian tourists. Being an American there was pretty entertaining. The manually-operated antique boat locks were a lot of fun to watch, and Unibroue's affiliated restaurant is very tasty.

Call me when the restaurant is fun to watch and the locks are tasty.

Have I mentioned that I am going to Vermont with a buncha dudes specifically to drink special, hard-to-acquire beer? So goofy.

90: Somebody got ahold of Westvleteren?

90: Somebody got ahold of Westvleteren?

I guess it would be goofier if I was going to Belgium.

93: Suggest that for next year.

91: nah different.

And for the year after that, Bavaria.

I really, *really* want to know if you're going to be having Westvleteren.

I got my Westy the traditional way, going to the monestary.

The dude who organized the trip just missed out on Westvleteren. The beers we are going to get mostly have almost no distribution outside Vermont, I hear.

My local bar in western MA always had a few bottles of Westvleteren that the owner had hand-imported (and had his buddies in the import business apply their import blessing). I got a bottle of the 8 for my birthday once there.

Speaking of which, their Wesvleteren flavored ice cream is delicious although it does feel a bit decadent.

Yeah there's a very highly regarded brewery in the middle of nowhere in Vermont. I've never been. I think they recently started a membership program so that members can reserve beers. I think that's kind of the future if hard-to-get microbrews, since so many wineries ship to club members only. Except that there's a legal hurdle for beer shipment that I think wineries are excepted from.

Yeah there's a very highly regarded brewery in the middle of nowhere in Vermont.

Several, actually. Or at least that's my understanding.

Speaking of which, their Wesvleteren flavored ice cream is delicious although it does feel a bit decadent.

A local ice cream place serves a chocolate shake made with stout that's really, really good.

My impression of Vermont as a huge craft beer mecca is admittedly shaped largely by what I've heard from my friend from grad school who is from there and is also majorly into craft beers, but I've read the same thing various places as well. (He now lives in San Diego, which I understand is also known for its beer.)

Except that there's a legal hurdle for beer shipment that I think wineries are excepted from.
A matter of crazy state law, but yes, in general there's some movement towards permitting interstate direct shipment of wine (see www.freethegrapes.org), but the laws are wine-specific.

Doesn't anybody just get drunk without so much deep thought?

Some people do, yes.

Not people like us, though.

66 to 109. Or not. I'm confused.

One of us is Jewish, but it may not be me.

Jews do think deeply before drinking, it's true.

I try to avoid thinking until after I'm drunk.

103: I think Hill Farmstead is in a class of its own. I'm sure there are plenty of other great microbreweries there, but not the same sort of "holy grail" situation.

114: Fair enough.

And now we know that if Sifu fails to go there he has failed us.

I'll eat my hat if that's not their destination.

Moby drinks to decompress. Unfortunately, as a Nebraskan, the algorithms he uses are loessy.

117: The original description mentioned "various breweries," but sure, it seems very likely that that's one of them.

NMM to Hugo Chavez. Shame really, you could get a lot done during those six-hour speeches.

This is the craziest thing ever: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/03/whole-new-use-parks-driving-out-sex-offenders

I was going to post and say "120 was me" but on rereading it seems like a rather damaging admission, so I'll just leave it anonymous.

DAMN

I'm going to Belgium (well, the France/Belgium border) for Easter (well, for the Tour of Flanders and the Paris-Roubaix) - anyone want some beer?

121: It's crazy, but I'm not sure it's crazier than Miami, where sex offenders can (could?) only legally live under a specific bridge.

121: Given the stupid criteria that will get you on a sex offender list I'm inclined to side with the kiddy-diddlers on this one.