Re: Sorry, more baby stuff

1

I hope your hoo-ha gets better.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:37 AM
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(Remember: nothing smaller than your elbow.)


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:38 AM
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If you could find a way to stop juggling for a bit the swelling might go down.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:40 AM
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I'm pretty impressed you can juggle with your genitals. Best I can do is spin a basketball.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:41 AM
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Juggling is nothing. It's a freaking clown car down there.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:42 AM
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A friend of mine has actually just given his new-born son the middle name "Danger".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:42 AM
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I'm afraid I know of several friends-of-friends who have done that exact thing. I think it's the name equivalent of saddling your kid with a tattoo that was out-of-date before the kid was ever born.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:44 AM
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What's impressive about a prenatal tattoo is not that it was done well, but that it was done at all.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:47 AM
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Just because you have a tribal arm band tattoo doesn't mean you got tattoo'd back when those were in style.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:49 AM
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I wonder what people think of me based on the girls' names. I know I've said this before, but if we end up adopting Nia, I might split her long combo name into its two constituent parts in large part because she's the only one in the world and we might have reasons to not want her to be immediately findable. But I feel a little bad about that. Also wish I knew how to pronounce her current middle name, but I pronounce Mara's Spanish middle name the Spanish way rather than her mom's way.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:49 AM
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De-psueding because otherwise it makes no sense to comment that my dad wanted to name me Justin. Thanks mom for vetoing that.


Posted by: A. Case | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:50 AM
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My sister gave her little boy the middle name "Grizzly". Aaaand she happened to marry a guy with the last name "Adams". The universe rewarded her with a little boy who is far and away the biggest weenie of the clan. When I was visiting in Jan. I tried to introduce him to the WWE style playing that my girls clamored for and my brother's boys make me do until my arms are on fire. Grizz promptly burst into tears and ran to hide behind my sister.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:52 AM
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My friend's mom had always wanted to name her future son Peter, but unfortunately married a Mr. Abbots, and decided against it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:53 AM
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If your last name is "Seed", you could just embrace it.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:00 AM
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My mother grew up next door to a boy named Robin Hood.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:10 AM
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I've known at least two Michael Hunts. One of them, his middle name was Valentine, which made me speculate that the first-last name combo was not accidental.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:12 AM
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A friend of mine has actually just given his new-born son the middle name "Danger".

A good friend of mine and oud's from college did that for both his kids. He also gave them a pile of other middle names, so they have plenty of options for how to identify themselves. I think "Perseverance" was one of them.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:13 AM
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There's always "Obedienta".


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:15 AM
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I don't get 13. Pete Abbots?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:17 AM
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I had a couple of high school classes with Jack Knopf.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:17 AM
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19: Peter Rabbit(s).


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:18 AM
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Peter, not Pete. Peter Rabbits.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:19 AM
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I had heard rumors of teeth but did not know they could juggle.

Someone I talked to on my trip (giant blur, now occluded by workaday misery) made a joke about hipster parents naming their kid "Denim" and it struck me as really funny. Maybe I heard it on tv. Blur.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:19 AM
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The middle name Danger is acceptable only if the first name is Nick and the child has a rare ophthalmic condition.

I'm sure I've mentioned that I was at school with a kid called Willie Dix. The strange bit is that he could easily have called himself Bill or some other version, but no...


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:20 AM
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Also argh Danger. Special place in parenting hell. Why not just give them "Take My Wife....Please!" as a middle name?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:21 AM
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It is fairly easy to change your name in Va. If anyone wants to change their name to Mutombo, please let me know.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:21 AM
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a condition involving my private parts which is equal parts embarrassing and excruciating

Hemorrhoids?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:22 AM
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I used to work for a guy called James Bond. I would guess that he was born in the late 50s...


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:22 AM
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I had a couple of high school classes with Jack Knopf.

There was a Happy Hussey at mine. Facebook tells me she took her husband's name when she married.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:23 AM
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I went to a college with a girl named Leda Swann. I always wondered whether her parents had read about Leda and the Swan but then forgotten about the whole Jove/swan-sexual-assault piece of the story and only retained the idea that "Leda" sounded euphonious with "Swann".

And then it has just occurred to me that the name sounds like "Lead A Swan", as in "you can lead a swan to water", etc.

Also, there are way too many incredibly creepy paintings on the Leda/Swan theme.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:24 AM
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hipster parents naming their kid "Denim"

This was in the NYT article about hipsters moving out of Brooklyn to the suburbs.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:25 AM
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And then it has just occurred to me that the name sounds like "Lead A Swan", as in "you can lead a swan to water", etc.

This was part of a mnemonic I was taught - "Europa bull, but you Leda Swan" to keep track of who gets turned into what.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:26 AM
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The bartender on our first date was Kevin Bacon, whom I knew from grade school. He would have been born in the mid-late '70s and now has a child at Nia's school.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:29 AM
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I know a K/irk Cam/eron who got unfortunately super Christian later in life.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:33 AM
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The thing about naming decisions, though, is that unless you do something idiotic like "Danger", or at least very outre, they're so bleached of meaning after the first couple of months. I can't think of when I've thought about someone's name (again, barring the seriously ridiculous) in terms of it having been the result of an actual decision.

Possibly they color how people think of you, but I doubt there's much of an effect at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:35 AM
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Interviewing witnesses, I ran into a Candace Cane once. That's a little hard to explain unless you want your kid to grow up to be a holiday-themed stripper.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:37 AM
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12 is such a great story -- "Grizzly Adams: Mama's Boy" would be a nice name for an Adult Swim show.

I had a college floormate who was dating a girl named "Robin Williams." Whenever they were having sex in the dorm room, the guy next door, who happened to own the movie soundtrack, would play the real RW going "GOOD MORNING VIETNAM" over and over again. I guess this was assholish, and eventually they broke up.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:37 AM
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This was part of a mnemonic I was taught - "Europa bull, but you Leda Swan" to keep track of who gets turned into what.

In each case, it's Zeus who gets turned into the animal.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:38 AM
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We have mostly decided on a name, but we're keeping it private for now, in part because we might change our minds, and in part because it's driving my mother up the wall.
"Do you two call the baby by his name?"
"Sometimes."
"Are you going to tell me?!?"
"No."
"Maybe you'll make a mistake and slip up and tell me!"

shiv has taken to referring to the baby as Helmut in all conversations with his family.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:39 AM
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That's a little hard to explain unless you want your kid to grow up to be a holiday-themed stripper.

Wasn't there an Olympian this past summer with a super unfortunate name along the lines of "Ivana Be A Pole-Dancer" or something?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:40 AM
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Destiny Hooker, I think.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:40 AM
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I can't think of when I've thought about someone's name (again, barring the seriously ridiculous) in terms of it having been the result of an actual decision.

Between me and Jammies, strangers ask us about our names all the time.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:41 AM
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Am I totally making this up, or don't we have a commenter with a kid whose middle name is Danger? (TJ and Bonsaisue?)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:42 AM
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Or rather, acquaintances.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:42 AM
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If they did, it's charming that they did it and I meant no offense above.

Similarly, if anyone has a tribal arm band tattoo, yours is not dated.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:43 AM
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I've known at least two Michael Hunts. One of them, his middle name was Valentine, which made me speculate that the first-last name combo was not accidental.

Maybe it was less an old dirty joke and more a Stranger in a Stranger Land reference.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:43 AM
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42: Funny, I would have guessed that for Jammies, given that his name is so ethnically marked for an ethnicity he isn't, but I would have figured that yours, while certainly weird, would have made it into the category of weird enough to notice once on first hearing, but never mention again. I guess the spelling, running the two names together as one word rather than hyphenating or putting a space between them (for readers who don't know, think Marykate instead of Mary Kate or Mary-Kate) might be enough to trigger a stronger reaction.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:46 AM
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45: I nearly got one in Samoa and am so glad I didn't.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:46 AM
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41: Yes, though Destinee, I believe.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:48 AM
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Jammies gets asked more often than I do, to be sure. For me, it's mostly along the lines of "You don't seem southern at all." And the confusion whenever I introduce myself - the other person often volunteers their last name after hearing my first name.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:49 AM
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shiv has taken to referring to the baby as Helmut in all conversations with his family

Some friends called their kid Wolfgang when it was in utero, and there were a couple of people who didn't realize it was a joke and were slightly disappointed to later find he was actually called [popular boy name].


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:51 AM
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35 -- I don't get this. Names have a story, which may or may not be interesting to strangers. My daughter has my grandmother's first name as her middle name, and as it's one of the virtues, people react to it, even if they don't know anything about my grandmother. My son's middle name is that of my mother-in-law's brother, who was drafted at a very young age -- too young to watch a racy movie when he came home on leave -- and didn't survive WWII.

My middle name is the same as my father's uncle -- who took in my father and his siblings when they were orphaned. He never knew it, but I'm not named after him, but instead after a college friend of my parents who had my combination first and middle name, and they liked the sound of it. A lame story, but 'in your face, surrogate father' has a certain timelessness to it.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:54 AM
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Sorry you're not feeling well, Heebie. It's a growing trend among my acquaintances to keep the name secret until after the head crowns or something. I don't know why. I told everyone my son's name.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:57 AM
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Sorry you're not feeling well, Heebie. It's a growing trend among my acquaintances to keep the name secret until after the head crowns or something. I don't know why. I told everyone my son's name.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:57 AM
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sorry for the double


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:57 AM
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My wife and I have always been atheists (as have both sets of parents and, so I understand, 3 of the 4 grandparents on each side - we are traditionalists that way). Anyway, I've been cracked on the boy's name "Jesse" since college or HS, so when our son was born (lo these many years ago), I was able to prevail on the little woman to name him Jesse (after batting down the equally venerable alternatives of Nebuchadnezzar and Tutankhamen). When he was 3 weeks old, I thought to look up what it meant: the joke was on us!

Something similar happened with our daughter, whose name was also a joke on us though somewhat less so.

Like many traditionalists, we are also slow learners.


Posted by: marcel | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:58 AM
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My dad wanted to name me Zephaniah, which was vetoed, and probably just as well.

I have a friend whose kids are Mil/lie, Vio/let, and Bus/ter - short for Milli/volt, Ultra/violet, and Com/busion, respectively. (googleproofed because it's not a combination that comes up very often). I go back and forth as to whether I think that that's awesome or terrible.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:59 AM
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I always wondered whether her parents had read about Leda and the Swan but then forgotten about the whole Jove/swan-sexual-assault piece of the story

The naming board on a pregnancy forum I sometimes visit is full of this kind of thing. Things I really don't think you should name your daughter:

Ophelia
Persephone (this one is not as terrible)
Lavinia

Another one I've always wondered about is Tamar, which seems to be relatively common in Israel? I've known a handful of Israeli Tamars, anyway. Why would you give your child the name of someone raped by her brother?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:00 AM
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I think I've mentioned that I went to high school with a dude named O/mar S/hariff, which actually didn't result in any mockery that I'm aware of (since neither Dr. Zhivago nor bridge strategy were particular high on anyone's make-funnery lists) but strikes me as somewhat odd because surely his parents had seen it.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:01 AM
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I have a friend named Pandora, which is an awesome name for her but probably too strong for a lot of people.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:03 AM
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Heebie:

I hope you feel better quickly.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:05 AM
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I know several Tamars and Tamaras. They don't all have to be named after the first one.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:06 AM
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I mean, the second one. I guess this is the first one.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:08 AM
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They don't all have to be named after the first one.

Sure, of course not. But I'm puzzled that the Biblical reference doesn't loom larger.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:09 AM
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14: A classmate.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:09 AM
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I can understand why parents don't share the name ahead of time, but we personally have shared the name ahead of time with each kid.

Now, the pseudonym - I would never share that ahead of time.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:10 AM
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But (as I just now learned) there's more than one biblical Tamar!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:11 AM
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63: She's the hero of the last part of Joseph and his Brothers.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:13 AM
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Now, the pseudonym - I would never share that ahead of time.

Yes but my guess is that people are going to figure out who ass-face is right quick.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:13 AM
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I think Jael is a fantastic biblical name. Also Judith.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:14 AM
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I also like that name, although I've only seen it as Ya'el.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:15 AM
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A friend of ours is having a girl, so we have been suggesting good names. Flower names are trendy - she'd be the only Umbellifer in her class! How about a princess name like Hermenegild? Or a classical name like Manto?

I don't think we have suggested Wry Cooter yet. That's still available, right?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:19 AM
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Seems like Adolf is due for a revival.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:24 AM
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I was just googling a band I recently discovered and found out that one of their guitarists is named Br/inton T/ench C/oxe. What a great name, even if it sounds like something out of Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats. Apparently he was named after a historical personage.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:26 AM
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I'm thinking Oedipus and Judas are not yet due for a comeback.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:26 AM
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Things I really don't think you should name your daughter:

Ophelia
Persephone (this one is not as terrible)
Lavinia

I was at school with a Cordelia...

Also on the list of unfortunate daughters: Virginia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verginia


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:28 AM
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57. If they have another boy, can I propose Astrolabe?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:29 AM
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If I have a girl one day I'm going to try my best to name her Livia.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:31 AM
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I like the Genesis Tamar. She plays Judah for a fool, and I like people who stick it to patriarchs.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:47 AM
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I like people who stick it to patriarchs.

I'm forwarding this remark to your children.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:54 AM
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We know an Ophelia. She loathes it, definitely holds the decision against her parents, and goes by Lia.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:58 AM
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78: One of my best HS friends is named that! She has lived up to it well.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 9:59 AM
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I'm forwarding this remark to your children.

Well played.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 10:03 AM
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If you are Livia you get to choose whether to live up to Livia Drusilla or Livia Soprano!


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 10:21 AM
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I was thinking of Augie's wife.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 10:35 AM
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Or Anna L. Plurabelle?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 10:38 AM
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Most of the old testament names have wonderful ambiguities.

Isaac: means laughter, and/or an unexpected and beloved late arrival for patents with fertility issues. Also signifies that his father is willing to kill him. (also my son's name)

Esther: heroic stripper/whore.

Mordecai: heroic pimp.

Moses: especially amusing for an adopted child. Renounced his adoptive family and killed his adoptive parents' oldest son.



Posted by: Unimaginative | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 10:50 AM
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killed his adoptive parents' oldest son

Is that right?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 10:53 AM
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88: Oh! Along with all the other oldest Egyptian sons! I would say that was G-d not Moses, though.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 10:55 AM
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86: I do like that one.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 10:56 AM
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My dad spent many years lobbying for me to call a son Isaac. And then when I had a son and called him Elijah, my dad complained that that was too biblical, which made me laugh. So then I showed him that Isaac Asimov had written several stories about an Elijah and that cheered him up.

Re 59 - when pregnant with kid A, I was quite keen on the name Vinny, mostly because the idea of the name of an old horror actor being completely innocuous to his classmates but amusing anyone of my age and up appealed greatly. Fortunately I had a girl.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 10:58 AM
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I'm forwarding this remark to your children.

I'm not much of a patriarch. This conversation happened today:

[Caroline is leaving for school]
Molly: Have fun at school!
Me: Bring honor and glory to the family!
Caroline [to me]: No, thank you.
Me: Ok.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 11:08 AM
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We are currently on the receiving end of the silent treatment from Scomber Mix's parents, who are royally pissed that we named the baby Teapot Zucchini Mix Bathyscaphe (three given names, one surname). Mostly it's the surname that has earned their ire,* but also they hate Teapot Zucchini, even though Teapot is a fine strong name and Zucchini was Scomber's grandfather's name. They also blame us because Scomber's mom now doesn't want to go visit her own family, because she would have to explain to them how we've gone so far astray. So they are refusing to come visit their first grandchild.

(Also it turns out that they're angry, many years on, that I'm Bathyscaphe rather than Mix. (Not that they've ever called me Bathyscaphe, of course.) They have gone so far as to write to my parents to take them to task for failing to raise an adequately traditional daughter. My parents read the letter and howled with laughter, bless them.)

* Fun bonus: we have told them that TZ's future sibling will be a Mix. They have told us not to waste their time with false promises, because in our demographic the odds are that we won't have another child. Thanks, guys!


Posted by: Gabardine Bathyscaphe | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:29 PM
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Holy shit, man.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:31 PM
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They have gone so far as to write to my parents to take them to task for failing to raise an adequately traditional daughter.

Man oh man oh man. It's really hard to imagine circumstances where someone would receive a letter like that and feel chastised.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:33 PM
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Wow. What a complete pain in the ass they are.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:34 PM
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J.H.C.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:34 PM
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95: Godless liberal.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:34 PM
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They have gone so far as to write to my parents to take them to task for failing to raise an adequately traditional daughter. My parents read the letter and howled with laughter, bless them.)

The upside is that they did this and now you have a boggling story to tell instead of just horrible in-laws who resent you and won't visit their grandchild.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:36 PM
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I admit that Bathyscape Mix sounds like an unfortunately toothbreaking snack product.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:36 PM
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There's the famous Krystal Ball. Wikipedia tells us that her father, whose physics dissertation was on crystals, chose the name.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:37 PM
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GB forgot to mention Papa Mix's other demographic objection to the "2nd baby will be named Mix" plan, namely, that the 2nd baby might not get the all-important Y chromosome.


Posted by: Scomber Mix | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:38 PM
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That's awful. You can rest assured, though, that one day they will wake up and realize that they've acted like idiots.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:39 PM
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Either that or you'll get increasingly entertaining stories to share with us.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:40 PM
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On the other hand, even if she (Teapot Zucchini's hypothetical little sister) doesn't have a Y chromosome, you could raise her in an inadequately traditional manner and so allow her to carry on the Mix name while violating the grandparental Mix sensibilities. This seems like a suitably cunning plan to me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:41 PM
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93: Holy toledo. That is pretty extreme. My sympathies.

People do seem to react very, VERY strongly to the "insubordination" of not taking the husband/father's name. I kind of thought that would have worn off by now, but 30-some years in it seems to be going strong.

(I had a female friend whose own mother routinely addressed letters/packages to "Mrs. Husband'sFirstname Husband'sName," notwithstanding the fact that she had retained her birth-given name upon her -- startlingly late, age 33! -- marriage.)

*Maybe it was 34.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:42 PM
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Now I want to have a baby so I can name her or him, Teapot Zucchini.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:42 PM
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105 is very appealing.


Posted by: Gabardine Bathyscaphe | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:45 PM
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People do seem to react very, VERY strongly to the "insubordination" of not taking the husband/father's name.

And every time, it makes me at least briefly regret not just giving Jane just plain Shrub as a last name instead of Shrub-Out. Stick it to the man! Though these days she rejects all surnames with vigor anyhow, and insists instead that her full name is Janey/bear Cas/sandra.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:46 PM
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109: Mara usually insists her last name is LeeLast-BirthLast, since that starts with the same letter and sound as mine, which belongs there. I think it's kind of cute.

Mara's mom gave her girls her last name and her boys their dads' last names. I've seen this mentioned as one option on feminist blogs and so forth, but I suspect is viewed differently when it's a poor black mom doing the naming.

105 is awesome but the reality of the situation is not. Ugh, people!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:50 PM
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109: Right, exactly. Sticking it to the man was part of the appeal of this scheme for me. (A small part, but part.) Whereas Papa Mix says—and this is very nearly a direct quote—any non-traditional choice makes a statement and is therefore wrong.


Posted by: Gabardine Bathyscaphe | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:51 PM
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Add my voice to the chorus of WTFs.

I know another guy who faced familial ire when he and his wife gave their firstborn the wife's last name. His aunts made much of the fact that his father (the baby's paternal grandfather) was dead, and what an insult to the dead. (No that doesn't make any sense.)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:53 PM
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I honestly haven't gotten any negative reaction ever on having a different surname from Jammies, or the kids having a new surname altogether than either of us. (We both have short last names, and the last letter of Jammies' surname is the first letter of mine, so we didn't bother with a hyphen.)

If I had to guess, this is because:
1. no one in my family cares
2. Jammies' family might care but are socially gracious people
3. Do people outside a family even ever care about such a thing?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:54 PM
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I do truly appreciate the "and while you're at it, how could you give him a lovely festive middle name from our side of the family and a nice solid extremely non-weird first name! YOU MONSTERS!"


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:56 PM
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The bit that totally baffles me is that the elder Mixes look at this decision and conclude that I have no respect for family names and lineage. No, actually, I really love the Bathyscaphe name and family history, and I would prefer not to see that heritage buried on grounds of my own inadequate Yfulness.

Also! Seriously, you're going to argue about respect for family, and also let something like this keep you from visiting your family?


Posted by: Gabardine Bathyscaphe | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:56 PM
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106: My mom does that. I kept my name. Sometimes she hyphenates my name with shiv's. Sometimes she alternates the order in which she hyphenates it. I'm assuming I broke my mom's brain.

Sorry your in-laws are being assholes. I can't imagine valuing a name over spending time with their grandson.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:57 PM
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SO JEALOUS of reason 2 in 113. Though I guess we get better stories, so that's something.


Posted by: Gabardine Bathyscaphe | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 12:59 PM
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We never got family negativity over hyphenating (although there was a successful hissyfit from Buck's family when he told them he was planning to drop his birth name entirely and take mine) (not my idea, he'd never liked his birth name much). But my family are (a) pretty feminist (b) strongly in favor of their side winning anything that could be perceived as winnable, so the more of my name that made it through the better and (c) fairly polite about this sort of thing, so they wouldn't have been negative about anything that wasn't actively funny, like changing our names to "Starchild". Buck's family either didn't mind the hyphenation or were relieved by it as a compromise that left their name visible at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:01 PM
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113.3: We have been the subject of good-natured gossip at the dentist's office. shiv is on my insurance, but without the same last name? "Is he your.. .friend? or boyfriend?" What will these liberal professors get up to next?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:01 PM
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My dad is not only supportive of my decision to keep my last name, he is also the only person who mails me things addressed to Dr. Blume Blumelastname.

When he submitted all the info to the funeral home for them to write up the standard-form obituary for my mom, they came back with her listed as being survived by "Blume Tweetylastname and husband Tweety Tweetylastname of Cambridge, MA." He corrected them, and they returned with "Blume Tweetylastname-Blumelastname and husband Tweety Tweetylastname of Cambridge, MA." They finally got it right on the third try.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:03 PM
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I think I've told you about the my friends from college that the husband took his wife's last name and his father responded by not talking to him for several years.

I believe the father got over it by the time there were grandchildren.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:03 PM
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A few years ago, I showed Papa Mix a list of GB's Bathyscaphe ancestors, which leads back into important places and events in American history. His response, which I have since quoted back to him, was that, yes, this was interesting, but patrilineal family trees were mere curiosities.


Posted by: Scomber Mix | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:05 PM
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Teapot Zucchini is a great name, but maybe more fit for a Zappa than a Bathyscaphe.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:05 PM
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120: Sifu is his first name, and Tweety is his last name. You don't have to take your husband's name, but I think you should at least know what it is.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:07 PM
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122: Patrilineal s/b matrilineal there? I think?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:08 PM
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Sifu is a title, peep. Canonically, my Pseudonymous Psurname would be "Fish".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:09 PM
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Mara's mom gave her girls her last name and her boys their dads' last names. I've seen this mentioned as one option on feminist blogs and so forth

Odd, I would have thought the opposite approach, giving boy-children the mother's name and girl-children the father's, so that no matter what the children do upon marrying, they're being a bit subversive, would be more likely to be feminist-blog-approved.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:10 PM
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SO JEALOUS of reason 2 in 113.

I try to stay appreciative of them. Especially my mother-in-law, who is flying in over Spring Break to help out with the HPs, because their daycare closes over Spring Break. Good lord I love her.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:11 PM
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One really regret the Flip-parents not having named one "St. John," which was apparently in the running. Damn hippies.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:13 PM
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Man, resentment over names just mystifies me.* However, mine, my ex's, and my current's are all sufficiently generic (Barnes, Andrews, Moore) that nobody feels much attached or could remotely claim endangered status. Shrugs all the way around.

*OTOH, all three of my kids have my surname, so yay patriarchy.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:13 PM
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128: Mine are pretty great along those lines, too. They're very, non-urban, middle-American, and I'm about as weird to them as if Buck had gone out and brought home an okapi. But they're very pleasant about it, and actually seem to like me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:14 PM
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"Regrets."


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:15 PM
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Okapi, don't be silly. Kakapo.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:15 PM
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Not a palindrome, however tempting it might look.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:18 PM
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You don't have to take your husband's name, but I think you should at least know what it is.

Shortly after we got married, we bought a house, and when I was putting our names on some document, I had to call my wife to ask her what her last name was. I couldn't remember what she had ultimately decided to do.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:18 PM
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For a while, Jammies could not remember how to spell Hawaii's name for the life of him. Nor what Pokey's birthday is.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:20 PM
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I do hate that about the wife-doesn't-change-her-name-kids-go-with-the-husband pattern, for people I know through their kids. I know the kid's full name, and the father's, but if I need the mother's (which I usually don't, which means that when I do it's unexpected), I have to actively find it out.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:20 PM
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125: nope, patrilineal. Prior to the Teapotsplosion, Papa Mix declared that an 350-year chain of Bathyscaphe men was a mere curiosity, because family trees are only interesting when they show the women too. (And what everyone died of! Heritable diseases are his hobby horse.)

I'm sure that he has a brain cell somewhere telling him that this is logically consistent with his current stance.


Posted by: Scomber mix | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:21 PM
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I know brothers named Cop/per and Sid, named after, respectively, Coper/ni/cus and Sid/dhar/tha.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:22 PM
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St. John, have fin Gin, ooo I am an engine
Okapi, my nappy, come on baby slappy
Gabardo, el Scombo baby why don't we go
Down... to... Kakapo!!#!!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:23 PM
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138: Your father sounds fascinating, albeit unreasonable.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:23 PM
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Heritable diseases are his hobby horse

Maybe a quick wipedown with alcohol before you let your kid on it?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:24 PM
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136: Is he just one of those people that can't spell and can't remember dates? I've come across both of those kinds of people, but I'm not sure if I know anyone that lacks both of those abilities.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:25 PM
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I will never stop thinking "Enormous, mendacious, disembodied anus" when I'm reminded of that song.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:26 PM
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Definitely he can't spell worth shit. Dates I think he's mostly okay on, but he's so incredibly organized that it's hard to know what he'd remember without all his planning.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:26 PM
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141: fascinating, from an appropriate distance. Maddening close up.


Posted by: Gabardine Bathyscaphe | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:26 PM
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What will these liberal professors get up to next?

I was actually a bit of a dick about names once at a conference, when a young married academic couple was talking about the opposite problem--how academics are or pretend to be totally mystified by women taking their husband's name, and so how they got all these questions (since they were in the same field) about, oh, are you siblings?, etc. As innocently as possible, I asked the husband, "So what did make you decide to take your wife's name, because I really respect that?"

I've been embarrassed about that ever since, because needling folks about their decision after it's been made is completely unhelpful. I do think, though, that more men should put pressure on their guy friends who're at the getting-married stage--it should be something men are forced to think about.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:28 PM
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I figured out that people that are super-bad spellers don't even see spelling. I thnk it's the same as the way I am with folding towels.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:29 PM
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||
Does anyone still use Corel? I have a couple of old SHW files I want to open. (Poor me, I still miss Wordperfect.)
|>


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:29 PM
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PC or Mac? You could try this viewer if the former.


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:35 PM
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137: I'm going with that option. I hadn't thought of it as being difficult, partially because the way our social circle works, almost everyone shiv knows here he knows through me, and because with all the different combinations academic types here use, it's basically standard to ask.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:38 PM
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it should be something men are forced to think about.

How much thought does this really need? Doesn't "everyone just do what the fuck you feel like and who cares because your names are probably not that interesting anyways" pretty much suffice?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:39 PM
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151: Yeah, when I say I hate it it's not disapproval -- it's a standard pattern and I see why it makes sense -- I just run into it with families where I know the kid well but I just have a nodding acquaintance with the parents. And then suddenly you're trying to track the mother down midday and you know her first name is Melissa and that's all you know. It's never a big problem, just an annoying glitch.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:41 PM
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152: I don't particularly care, but "everyone does what they feel like" around here means "you're a weirdo for not taking your husband's last name, and my son's middle name is Gryzzly (the 'y' makes it extra unique!) but that's totally normal."


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:44 PM
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154: Heh, maybe go hang out farther west where all the Mexicans are.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:52 PM
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154: Because, it's very important to be both totally normal and extra unique!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:52 PM
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My father's advice on dealing with in-laws was basically to do what you wanted, because in the long run children always get the upper hand on their parents. (This came up when one of my friends wanted to marry his girlfriend, and his parents threatened to disown him. (In the end his parents had their way, since the girlfriend broke off the engagement. (Sigh.)))


Posted by: YK | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 1:54 PM
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When I was growing up there was periodic talk about adopting my paternal grandmother's maiden name instead of our family last name. My dad's dad ditched the family soon after the youngest son was born, giving the name mostly negative associations; the boys were raised by their mother and maternal grandfather, whom they loved and cherished. But my grandmother has fixed ideas about the institution of marriage, and so we generally felt that this change would most easily be made after her death. She will be 95 this year, and at some point I realized I feel my name is my name, I've carried it with me through the long process of identity formation, and changing it for sentimental reasons now would be silly. But I gave my daughter the last name I would have adopted (instead of my own last name) as a middle name, and then she has her father's lovely surname to end it. The effect is botanical and old-fashioned, but I like it.

My sister ended up dropping the last name we share and just going by [firstname] [mother's maiden name], which was her/our middle name originally, and then she gave [mother's maiden name] to her son as a last name. This turned out to be nice and elegant once her husband ditched them.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 2:20 PM
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120: Sifu is his first name, and Tweety is his last name. You don't have to take your husband's name, but I think you should at least know what it is.

Sifu is his title.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 2:44 PM
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"His title is Robert Paulson."


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 2:56 PM
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Sifu is his style.

Someone into heritable diseases ought to like the scheme by which everyone gets a matrilineal and a patrilineal name. Also handy for daycare pickups, etc. Eventually, sixteen quarterings for all!


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:01 PM
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Eventually, sixteen quarterings for all!

So … everyone has sixteen homes? Or everyone has four things?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:08 PM
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162: As someone who was pwned way back at 126, you may not want to BSALB.

Also.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:13 PM
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It's possible that I was BALB by assuming you were BALB. But you were still pwned.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:20 PM
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Hight, yclept, né, dba, AKA, soi-disant, once and future.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:21 PM
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I'll confess to also being a bit irked by the "kids take husband's name"--with an exception for one special case! Can you guess what it is?

...

Have you guessed yet?

... it's okay when the parents flip a coin (or use some other randomizer, whatever) to decide which name gets used!


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:22 PM
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162 is also just odd. The term is quarterings, and it isn't hard to look up.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:23 PM
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What if it's a biased coin?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:23 PM
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We don't count unconscious biases.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:26 PM
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161: especially someone who is into heritable diseases and is from a country in which children are given both a matrilineal and a patrilineal name. But no!

trapnel, you'll be pleased to know we did consider a coin toss to decide between T.Z.M. Bathyscaphe and our chosen Mix name. But in the end we just went with the name we liked more.


Posted by: Gabardine Bathyscaphe | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 3:38 PM
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The term is quarterings, and it isn't hard to look up.

I couldn't possibly have decided to post 162 regardless!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 4:06 PM
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We went with the alliterative choice (C's surname) for Kid A as it sounded better, thinking we would alliterate with mine for Kid B as we had an idea of a name in mind. And then changed our minds re the first name, and then thought, fuck it, they're siblings, they can have the same surname.

Had a funny experience with a woman who I met through my mum and dad, and she needed to write me a cheque, and asked me what my surname was. Erm, same as those people that you've known for ten years!

GB and SM - triple argh - hope they get over themselves enough to at least bloody visit soon.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 4:06 PM
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My cat has my last name, but really only uses it at the vet. Her middle name is David because the family tradition is that all pets have the middle name David. No-one knows why.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 4:14 PM
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Mrs. K-sky and I don't entirely know what our names are. We planned at the wedding that I would take her middle name and she would take my last name, because she wasn't very attached to her last name (an Ellis Island substitution) and combining our two would be inelegant along the lines of Jewishstein-Jewishberg.

But then we never filled out any paperwork, she continued to use her original name professionally, she went with Jewishstein Jewishberg on Facebook, and I use her middle name for the nonce, but in no legal capacity.

The Forthcoming K-skini will get my last name and her own first and middle names, which pay loose tribute to some deceased relatives, as suggested by Jewishstein-Jewishberg tradition.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 7:38 PM
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168: How many kids do you have to have to determine that?


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 03- 6-13 8:14 PM
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170.1: Okay, just nuts or domineering. Commiseration.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:17 AM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leone_Sextus_Tollemache

"an elder brother was named Lyulph Ydwallo Odin Nestor Egbert Lyonel Toedmag Hugh Erchenwyne Saxon Esa Cromwell Orma Nevill Dysart Plantagenet Tollemache-Tollemache[5]--his first 15 initials spell "LYONEL THE SECOND"."

Everyone is now pwned.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 5:07 AM
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177. Well, I suppose that his father,being a clergyman, was able to baptise him personally. Because any responsible vicar who said, "Name this child", and got that lot back, would tell the godparents (WTF were they thinking?) to FOAD and call the kid Jim.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 5:15 AM
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Huh, I thought I was being a good modern liberal by not expecting T. to take my name when we got married, but apparently that wasn't enough and I should have offered to take hers. More seriously, I'm not sticking with my name out of tradition (although I realize that's what makes it so easy to do so, and doing the default thing should require thought, and so on), but because I want to simplify my name. Before we get married I plan to legally change it to what I've informally called myself for years now. Changing from one hyphenation to another wouldn't help.

She mentioned us both hyphenating. I wasn't interested. She said it was just an idea and she didn't have her heart set on it and I'm taking her word for it and we haven't discussed it since then; she can hyphenate or take my name if she wants, although I certainly don't expect either, but I don't want to take hers.

While I was an exchange student I met several people who had names that were normal enough in their own cultures but became funny in a new one. Three examples:

The name "Holly" may be unremarkable in the Anglosphere, but to a French person it sounds just like the phrase "to bed."

I met a guy with the family name "Strokoff," but as a French teen of Russian heritage, he had no idea what it sounded like in English.

Met a fellow exchange student named Nick Dixon. He was an Australian, or maybe New Zealander, so he had no idea that it sounded like the name of an infamous American president.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:28 AM
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Are we still on topic here? I want to make a PSA to all babysplosion participants about the Obamapump- unlike the Obamaphone, you really can get a breast pump for free for each baby you pop out- insurance is required to cover it at no charge. We had a pump that made it through 3.5 babies but died while still needed for the last one, we were about to blow a couple hundred on a new one, then I heard about the required coverage under ACA. Called insurance to confirm, called doctor to get prescription, took prescription to medical device store = free pump.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:37 AM
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Is it a nice one? I've only ever used the Medela model that I have, but I'm wary of crappy pumps.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:39 AM
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This followed me partially repairing the existing pump by getting a distributor cap O ring at Autozone and replacing the pump's drive belt. The existing band had worn away and this kind of fixed it but the size/tension wasn't exactly the same to the suction isn't the same as before. I had to determine whether the repair worked at all (while wife was at work) so tested it on myself.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:39 AM
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The store encouraged her to get the more expensive model- they're all covered full cost up to some level of I think several hundred dollars- but to make it compatible with existing parts she got the same Medela one we already have (Purely Yours I think?)


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:41 AM
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Wait, that's Ameda, not Medela, because those don't sound at all the same. I think Medela is what they were pushing her to buy.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:43 AM
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Woohoo! The streets will run with breastmilk!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:48 AM
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so tested it on myself

And?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:48 AM
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Poor seal because I didn't shave for the experiment; results inconclusive, but there was enough pain to say that the pump was at least pulling some air.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:59 AM
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The name "Holly" may be unremarkable in the Anglosphere, but to a French person it sounds just like the phrase "to bed."

Huh, that's not the same (first) vowel at all for me.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:59 AM
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We took advantage of the Obamapump ourselves, to get a second, somewhat different pump (since the provision for it only kicked in this year). (Medela Pump-In-Style vs. Freestyle - the Freestyle is newer and better designed in a lot of ways, but the actual pumping is less powerful, presumably so they could make it much smaller and run for a while on an internal battery).


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:00 AM
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I wish we'd known about it earlier because she was carrying her pump back and forth to work everyday, would have been easier to have two (and also not be in a panic when the first one broke.) At the hospital they asked if we had a pump, we said yes, so they didn't volunteer any more information about it. Although that was pre-Jan 1 so I guess it wasn't in effect yet.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:05 AM
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I had heard that the Obamapump wasn't available until July. But maybe that's just because that's when our plan rolls over? I hope I can get insurance to cover it.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:18 AM
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Do you have to start pumping before the fall semester?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:22 AM
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Have to? No. Suspect that I will sometime in the first ten weeks? Yes. (I also don't have to go back until January because they have to give me leave, I'm due on the last day of class, and they can't make me take the leave in the summer as I'm not officially under contract, and also my dean is very pro-family/placating perceived flight risks.)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:29 AM
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Autozone

Now I can't keep the phrase "Get in the zone. Breast milk zone." Fuck you brain!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:30 AM
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Ooh, nice scheduling. Not that it's possible to plan that accurately, but it certainly worked out well.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:31 AM
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I get a lot of compliments on the timing.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:33 AM
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"Perceived flight risks" cracks me up.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:42 AM
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188: "au lit." No concept of vocalizing the letter h*, and while English-speakers wouldn't normally pronounce the o in "Holly" like the French "au," apparently it's a conclusion French people jumped to when they saw it written. Compare to "Orly." So maybe it's not just the same, but close enough that confusion seemed reasonable.

Then again, I think she told me that in her high school French class she went by her middle name and she introduced herself by that in France from the start, so maybe this was just a problem in her American French class and not with actual French people, I don't know.

* At least, not when written with our alphabet. Put it in another alphabet, though, no problems. One of the most baffling things about my experience in French high school was hearing my classmates pronounce "the" as "zeh" and "thing" as "sing" in English class, and then a couple hours later hearing the same students have no problem with Arabic with its three different letters that could be transliterated as h and two that could be th.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:43 AM
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||

Way #439 in which the British are different from you and me (assuming you and I are from the U.S.). You can publish this in a mainstream newspaper:

Instil [in your young children] a long-term political goal, such as the overthrow of the royal family or private property

|>


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:57 AM
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while English-speakers wouldn't normally pronounce the o in "Holly" like the French "au,"

Right, that's what I was thinking of.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 9:57 AM
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Beef Strokinoff is the name under which I make solo bear porn.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:09 AM
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No no, the joke is, "What do you call 100 masturbating cows?"


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:13 AM
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Always already pwned.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:16 AM
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We are still struggling with names for the impending nattarGcM offspring [t-7 days and counting]. Finding a name that works for the Czech speaking side of the family and the English is hard. Plus my/our surname is pretty Scottish sounding. Lots of Czech first names sound daft when combined with it.

Both of us like my Dad's name. Not as a tribute to him, but it just sounds nice with the surname. But neither of us would actually want him to think we'd named him after him. We may just have to go with Bohuslav nattarGcM.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:31 AM
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Confuse everyone equally by calling him Shlomo, or Hieronymus, or Seewasugur.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:33 AM
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Or Cetewayo!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:34 AM
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I do like Hieronymous.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:36 AM
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I can't tell if this is meant to be Bohuslav or Va/suhob.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:37 AM
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Heh. Bohuslav.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bohuslav#Czech

We have given serious though to:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Jakub#Czech


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:40 AM
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Call him Praaag (umlaut as desired) and leave it ambiguous as to whether its the city or the music style.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:41 AM
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204: Congrats in advance. You should make sure the name includes an r with a hacek, because giving your child a name that most people won't be able to pronounce builds character.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:43 AM
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Jakub sounds like it solves the sounding-weird problem, unless it's pronounced noticeably differently from Jacob. ekaJ nattarGcM is a perfectly ethnically coherent sounding name. No one's ever going to spell it right first time without being told, but that's not a big deal at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:44 AM
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Alternately, call him Jan but pronounce it Ian.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:46 AM
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Hieronymus nattarGcM sounds like an equally polymathic contemporary of Thomas Urquhart or Cromarty. Go for it!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:47 AM
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204. You couldn't just call him Jan and pretend it's Ian when you go north?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:47 AM
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Re 211

So far while he is still enwombed we are calling him Řehoř because the two R-haceks amuse.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:49 AM
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Re: Jakub

We would probably go with standard English pronunciation (in English) and the Czech diminutives. If we do go with that at all.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:51 AM
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"Mirek" would be euphonious.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:54 AM
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Re 218

My wife's sister's husband's name. We def wouldn't use that.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:56 AM
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Bummer. I'd stick with Řehoř, then.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:57 AM
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I met a guy with the family name "Strokoff,"

Friend-of-a-friend's last name used to be Wankoff. No joke. Her family tried to make it better by putting the stress on the second syllable, but there's just no getting around that being a horrible name. She was very happy to change it upon marriage.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 10:59 AM
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I quite like the mélange studen names (seeing the official roster gets me middle names, etc.). Still hoping for a Leigh St. John-Ng.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 11:20 AM
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I have two friends who work at different unions but sometimes collaborate. The spelling of each of their last names would easily allow for different pronunciations, but they have stuck with their families' versions and thus there are times when Wiener (Wei/ner) and Boner (Boh/ner) are on conference calls together.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 11:32 AM
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I've mentioned that Buck used to work for a three-employee company manned by Weiner, [Woody], and Cox? (His name's not Woody, but might as well be.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 11:34 AM
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||
There's a Joss Whedon movie of Much Ado About Nothing? This sounds endlessly horrible to me. Winky-nudgey dork-ironic Shakespeare, gevalt.
|>


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 11:44 AM
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225: My brother! Let the hate flow through you....


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 11:58 AM
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Trailer


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 12:01 PM
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I work with an individual saddled with the unfortunate multicultural name of Sere/nity Wa/ng.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 12:03 PM
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227: Marge. Get. My. Gun.


Posted by: OPINIONATED HOMER SIMPSON | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 12:16 PM
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Winky-nudgey dork-ironic Shakespeare, gevalt.

Rollover text!


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 12:22 PM
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Serenity W/ang! Insanity pecker.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 12:30 PM
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I knew a John Johnson. I guess his parents were given the choice between that and Harry.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:00 PM
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225: I am really, really excited about the Whedon Much Ado. However, like my love of Neil Young, it is not something I feel up to defending against sophisticated critics.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:16 PM
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Wait, Neil Young is now deprecated around here? What?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:28 PM
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Much Ado... is winky-nudgy ironic already. It's not like they did A Winter's Tale. (That's waiting for Moffat and Eccleston.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:33 PM
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I (mostly) love Branagh's Much Ado. Is that deprecated?

rob, I'm willing to support you, though I think Whedon's could go either way. Some great casting for sure.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:44 PM
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Heh, I once convinced my wife that the voice of Kermit the frog was done by Neil Young.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:46 PM
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Neil Young is the Yucateco of rock, green, without subtlety, and bad on desserts.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:48 PM
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From way back at 29: Happy Hussey would fit right in at the senior center down the street - for years its front window had an ad for its "'Happy Hooker's' Crochet Club", grocer's apostrophe and superfluous quotation marks included.


Posted by: joyslinger | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:54 PM
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I (mostly) love Branagh's Much Ado. Is that deprecated?

I think it got overrated at the time on grounds of scenery, geographic and human. (Michael Keaton's Dogberry was rather twitchy, I recall.) For that summer, it was America's liberal-arts-educated-mom's Under the Tuscan Sun-equivalent.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 1:57 PM
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I heard about the Whedon Much Ado About Nothing on Facebook, perhaps five minutes before Smearcase alluded to it here, from a friend whose taste is only sometimes reliable.

I have no set opinion about Joss Whedon, but armed with a fondness for all Much Ados - it was the first show I acted in, back when - I decided to be open to seeing and liking this one.


Posted by: joyslinger | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:00 PM
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240: I seem to remember taking a similar "it's overrated" stand on Branagh's star-stuffed Hamlet, but I also seem to remember being a teenager and seeing it on a bus, so I don't know that I trust my critical faculties there.


Posted by: joyslinger | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:08 PM
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I will defend disliking Neil Young.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:09 PM
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He sucks.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:10 PM
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I thought the Branagh Hamlet was genuinely kind of awful. I've mostly completed my metamorphosis from total Buffy-devotee and Whedon fangirl to post-Dollhouse Whedon hater, but I have to admit the trailer for Much Ado has me kind of excited.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:13 PM
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242: I remember that movie being a sort of brassy, top-of-everyone's-range-all-the-time version, but not really disappointing or crappy.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:13 PM
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I was expecting to enjoy it and didn't; I don't know that it was objectively crappy, but I like the play, was looking forward to it with that cast, and ended up not having any fun.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:27 PM
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The Branagh Hamlet was genuinely kind of awful.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:29 PM
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I'd like to see the Whedon one to see if they got the loose, quick, summer-rep-having-fun feeling into it.

I don't know if I count as a Whedon fangirl, but I did decide to pretend Dollhouse didn't exist, which keeps me warmer. Also, thought Natasha in Avengers was good, in the way that I particularly like Eowyn and Faramir: top-class humans outclassed by people with a power or a prophecy or something.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:32 PM
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Still Řehoř, 4 months later!


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:38 PM
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Natasha in Avengers was good, in the way that I particularly like Eowyn and Faramir: top-class humans outclassed by people with a power or a prophecy or something.

This is great. Natasha was for me one of the problems of Avengers -- it bothered me that there was only one female hero of the gang and her power was . . . super sexiness? Anyway, I prefer your take.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 2:39 PM
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I loved Natasha's first scene in Avengers, where you think she is the victim, but really she's totally in charge.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:00 PM
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Anyway, I prefer your take.

I really, really liked The Avengers and thought it did a remarkable job of balancing character / plot / exposition without feeling too lumbering.

All in all, I thought Natasha was handled about as well as she could be, but I still found myself wondering, "why have her, specifically, at all." Given the decision to include her, I thought the movie did a good job of using her, but there are other characters (and other actresses) that I would have been more interested in seeing.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:12 PM
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233 demonstrates rob's incredble out-of-touchness. Liking Neil Young has been cool for like 20 years now. Pitchfork's review of the rerelease of his first four albums is effusive.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:15 PM
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Basically, her superpower is topping from the bottom.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:15 PM
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Yeah, we discussed Neil Young here recently. I'm on team 'Neil Young is massively over-rated and those guitar solos are too long, and not very good'. But yeah, around the time he released Arc/Weld he became hip again.

It also became common to hear [deluded/wrong] people describing him as the only talented one in CSNY.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:17 PM
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I don't think Team Neil Young: Amazing Technical Guitarist has too many members, seeing as his most famous guitar solo has one note. And that his best music (e.g. Tonight's the Night) literally dissolves.

But surely everyone outside of Berklee School of Music and/or Musician's Institute of Technology and/or the Official Joe Satriani/Dream Theater Fan Club Organization agrees that that can't be the right evaluative criteria.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:21 PM
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My wife never openly expresses enthusiasm for any entertainment product, so I didn't appreciate the extent of her Whedon fandom until she dutifully watched all of Dollhouse. I couldn't bring myself to watch more than 5 minutes of it, though she talked into watching the first part of the two-part finale.

I liked the Natasha opening, but it struck me as pretty derivative of a scene near the end of the Charlie's Angels, which had better fight choreography.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:28 PM
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I admit, looking at the list of Avengers there aren't that many female avengers to chose from. Some of the most interesting (Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel [Monica Rambeau]) have powers that would be difficult to show in a movie.

The Wasp might be the best choice, considering that she was both a founding member and was chair at one point, but it wouldn't make sense to include her without including Ant-Man. She-Hulk would have a similar problem in that having Hulk and She-Hulk in the same movie could be a bit much.

I think Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch would be great characters, but I can see how The Black Widow makes sense.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:31 PM
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But surely everyone outside of Berklee School of Music and/or Musician's Institute of Technology and/or the Official Joe Satriani/Dream Theater Fan Club Organization agrees that that can't be the right evaluative criteria.

Oh, fer sure. I'm critiquing him based on his suckiness.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:33 PM
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OK, his music doesn't literally dissolve.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:40 PM
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259. Right, but if you decide to make a movie about/in a story/genre that is misogynist, the preexisting problems of the story/genre don't exculpate you from the charge that your own movie is problematic.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:48 PM
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re: 257

re: Young's solos: I mean 'not very good' as in 'not very interesting'. If you are going to bang on for bloody ages, it should be interesting or expressive. I don't tend to find Young's much of either. I'm not even a big Young hater. I quite like the odd song, the odd album even, but sometimes he's interminable.

I don't care about technical ability, or at least I don't care about it when the musician in question isn't explicitly making a claim for it. Lots of my favourite musicians have rudimentary technique at best, and lots of the best guitar solos are shambolic.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 3:58 PM
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Ah. I agree that some of the Crazy Horse instrumentals kind of go on to nowhere. But part of the appeal of the guy (for me anyway) is that he seems as if both his voice and the music around him is about to collapse at any moment.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 4:02 PM
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I would like Neil Young a lot if the lyrics weren't so horribly cliched. This doesn't seem to be a common opinion, and I usually ignore lyrics anyway, but there it is.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 4:06 PM
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re: 264

It has more of the flavour of the pub bore, to me. Someone going on and on boring everyone. I remember being deeply disappointed by Weld when it came out for that reason.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 4:47 PM
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re: 264

That said, I know the sort of thing you mean. I like other musicians who have that teetering on the edge of disintegration thing going on.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 4:51 PM
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267: I feel like that's the quality I like in Matthew sweet. Esp. "Sick of myself."


Posted by: Tulip | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 4:58 PM
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Holly - what a silly name.


Posted by: alida valli | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 5:52 PM
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Allow me to be the first to say that Neil Young sucks.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:00 PM
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I usually think of the Scarlet Witch as the canonical female Avenger, but that might just be a function of the age at which I was mostly reading comics.

She-Hulk could also work.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:03 PM
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I think of Neil Young as the guy who did the sound track for Dead Man, a movie that I continue to like but maybe not as much as I did when I was more of an academic.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:14 PM
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And further to and maybe because of that, the idea of listening to Neil Young do regular music seems to me like listening to the zither guy from The Third Man do regular music.

(I still love The Third Man and it's sound track, btw.)


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:16 PM
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its


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:17 PM
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268 is surprising. I think of Matthew Sweet's music as very tightly structured power-pop. It's not Michael Penn-level of composed, but it feels very deliberately fabricated.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:20 PM
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275 gets it right. His songs are almost too planned out sometimes. Not as much as XTC though.

I have a soft spot for songs that could not possibly be covered effectively because what makes them good is the way things just sort of fall together, rather than the writing per se. The Fall is the all-time leader in this sort of song.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:39 PM
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Scarlet Witch would work well to build a movie around, but only if they could get David Lynch to direct.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:41 PM
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Neil Young is the only artist of his era that I can think of who is still doing interesting things.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:41 PM
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Greil Marcus

Young moves off on long, entrancing voyages, accompanied by slashes of the second guitar, a loose, winding beat, the bass and drums pounding with the steady, gritty energy of a man pulling a bucket out of a well hand over hand. Anyone who dug Young's guitar on 'Mr. Soul' or 'Out of My Mind' will simply dive into this song. Like Robbie Robertson, Young used to be quite sparing in what he'd give to the listener - but here he gives it all. On and on he goes, winding his way through passages and alleyways, his guitar really talking in a way that the guitars of only the very best bluesmen (B.B. King and Robert Johnson) talk, in a way that only the guitar of Keith Richard of the Stones can talk. I say that the guitar talks because when this miracle happens there is simply no alienation between the artist and his instrument. Try to draw the line, and it can't be done. The man seems to be speaking with his fingers, with the strings, like a deaf and dumb boy communicating with signals.

One note played for hours can be like a reverse Shishi-odoshi, which I can understand isn't very "interesting or expressive" for some kinds of people.

Same with Young's lyrics. FFS, he isn't trying to be Keats. The reduction and cliches are the fucking point.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:47 PM
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Thank you, bob. Well said.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 7:51 PM
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280 is on point.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 03- 7-13 8:19 PM
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Apparently I'm 'some kind of people'. Which I guess I am. I'm the kind of person who find long hippy guitar solos boring.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 1:24 AM
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Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with liking long hippy guitar solos, if that's what floats your boat.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 1:53 AM
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||

Oh hey, remember this?

One year later, analogous project, different individual contributor, crucial to the endeavor, goes crazy and has three screaming, foot-stamping, poison-pen email-sending tantrums in two weeks, reducing other people to tears and behaving in the most abusive way anyone has ever encountered. This necessitates their firing and a last-minute rush to find a ringer. Which we did, but it was a huge monkey-wrench in the gears.

I won't even detail the perfidy of the other person who was responsible for a lot of the goading and enabling that led to the tantrums.

||>


Posted by: William Howard Taft | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 7:14 AM
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I won't even detail the perfidy of the other person who was responsible for a lot of the goading and enabling that led to the tantrums.

Why not?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 7:22 AM
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He's too modest to talk about himself?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 9:37 AM
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Oh, alright, twist my arm:

This other fellow (TOF), who has a long history of working with our organization, and some strong personal ties to the boss, decided that he would forward some materials to the freak out guy (FOG), and add his gloss in such a way as to ensure that FOG took the materials as a personal affront. TOF was told that this had been a stupid move, and had, in fact, almost led to FOG being taken off the project. Then, this week, TOF kept goading FOG until he freaked out again, then took his side in the ensuing brouhaha, even going so far as to send the boss an email which could be read as threatening (not with physical violence). And, get this, TOF says he won't work unless FOG is kept on the project, but he still wants to be paid in full (even though no contract has been signed yet). Then FOG sent another poison-pen email last night which apparently eclipsed his previous one in both viciousness and paranoia. By some people's estimation, this represents total career suicide on FOG's part, as there is no one else in the industry who wants to work with him, as he has pulled similar shit with just about everyone he's ever worked with. And it's a very small industry, where gossip can make its way to every significant international node very rapidly.

All of these people are well into middle-age, and should really know better.


Posted by: William Howard Taft | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 10:07 AM
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287. Not for nothing is this thread headed "More baby stuff".


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 10:23 AM
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288 is great


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 11:10 AM
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Topping from the bottom seems like a necessary skill when dealing with superheroes and supervillains. See also Agent Paulson?

The campy opening with Natasha was ...campy, but I liked it as a setup for her doing pretty much the same thing to Loki.

if you decide to make a movie about/in a story/genre that is misogynist, the preexisting problems of the story/genre don't exculpate you from the charge that your own movie is problematic. Too true! But also true that the audience is part of the problem, so if I pay attention to these genres at all I can't blame their makers for not being unstained. I think my moral standard is `as much better as you can get from where we are', by which Avengers was a wash, the DC reboot unforgivable, and... I'm trying to come up with a feminist triumph in pulp film and failing, even though I liked Brave. Oh! I like the first Mu Lan movie; she's also an *engineer* heroine. (But Magic Negro sidekick. Argh.) The sequel is unmitigatedly awful, though.

Tremors is also, surprisingly, not awful.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 2:54 PM
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Tremors is GREAT! On all levels.

my moral standard is `as much better as you can get from where we are'

I've been reading a lot of new YA high fantasy lately, and have been very impressed -- they're super fun, with great stories and characters from a feminist perspective, in a genre that has always seemed (to me anyway) to be icky in that regard.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 3:34 PM
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Tremors is great.

Also this bit of comment I like: ...in the way that I particularly like Eowyn and Faramir: top-class humans outclassed by people with a power or a prophecy or something.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 3:57 PM
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I loved Tremors a lot. "CAN YOU FLY?!"


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 4:15 PM
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278: Neil Young is the only artist of his era that I can think of who is still doing interesting things.

Jeff Beck. Though I see that the last three of his albums I have (Who Else; You Had it Coming; Jeff) are longer ago than I thought -- 1999, 2001, and 2003 respectively. I haven't heard the latest, from 2010.

Try "Seasons" off Jeff.

Or "So What" from same. (That one's not for everyone.)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 5:53 PM
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291.3: Specifically, jms?

I think I rate Brave higher, actually, having watched it with my mom as a three-hankie. It isn't a triumph as a pulp film, but making a film that's about something else in the framework of YA spunky teen individuation is interesting.

The voiceovers give me the goddamn pip, though. I even like Enya and Loreena McKennit but that was too damn much portenteous Celtic twilight boo-rah.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 6:18 PM
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President Taft: What does TOF get out of the goading and the breakdowns? Mere amusement, or a firmer position?


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03- 8-13 6:20 PM
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