Re: Prop 8 and DOMA

1

Good for her! Even if she feels pretty secure about the outcome, that's brave of her.

Nia is obsessed with weddings because friends of ours are having an extralegal one in a few months and so, prompted by yet another set of questions about when we'd get married, I proposed to Lee while the girls were in the bathtub and Lee was sitting on the closed toilet lid supervising, which I guess will make a good story if anything ever comes to pass in terms of having marriage equity where we live. I really only get concerned about not legally being Mara's mom, but the rest of the financial and social benefits would be nice.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 11:41 AM
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Woohoo, marriage! You want we should throw you a shower in DC?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 11:42 AM
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Congratulations!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 11:46 AM
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Well, it's not like we're getting any MORE married than we were otherwise. It's still not going to happen until it's legal where we live, because the only point to doing it would be to get the legal benefits. I think I've already said that Nia recommended I buy Lee the most hideous giant gold-colored plastic ring with fake jewels all over the enormous heart because Lee would love to have it when we get married. Mara doesn't care much about marriage yet, but thinks it's sort of gross/hilarious that we're girlfriends.

Our friends who are getting married (the other interracial lesbian couple with two black girls) did a big public proposal partly engineered by the two girls, who are so excited about their biological mom's new(ish) love, and while I've always hated the concept of public proposals, it was totally adorable and heart-warming to see all four of them hugging each other and the moms crying and so on.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 11:50 AM
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You want we should throw you a shower in DC?

Seems like a bath would be more contextually appropriate.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 11:50 AM
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See? Shoulda gone with the sex grottoes.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 11:52 AM
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Congrats!


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:01 PM
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I'm always a little confused by the point-of-view that "the only point to doing it would be to get the legal benefits." Though I certainly understand that it's a common opinion (as is "the only point in getting married is if you're planning on having kids").

Certainly legal benefits are a huge deal, and certainly legal benefits played some role in the timing of my wedding, but it'd didn't play a role in the timing of my engagement or the decision to get married in the first place. I got married because I wanted to marry my wife, and I would have wanted to get married whether the government recognized it or not.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:02 PM
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I'm pretty optimistic on this one, the ground under which the legal profession sits has just shifted too far. My guess is that we're going to get an opinion (a) establishing sexual orientation as subject to intermediate scrutiny and (b) a ruling that intermediate scrutiny is not met in the Prop 8 situation, where the state voted to take away a right found to be enshrined in the California constitution. The overall constitutionality of laws prohibiting same-sex marriage will be left open but will be extremely dubious after the opinion.

I'll probably be wrong, but at least I've placed a bet.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:03 PM
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Anyhow, the rush of amicus briefs in the case has been pretty amazing. It's like every liberalish lawyer in America (including me, I guess) wants their own little piece of history.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:05 PM
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See, now I feel bad for getting jokey-engaged and telling you guys about it when there are real people getting real married and dealing with real issues and stuff. Sorry!

It does really matter to Mara that we've given each other rings and made promises to work together and be a family. Luckily the one she's worried about losing is Lee, so we can truthfully talk about the promises Lee made to the judge to be Mara's mom forever. So far that seems to be enough. For Nia, I think the biggest issue is that she wants to dress up, which might mean that Easter will be as good as a wedding would be.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:05 PM
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In particular, I feel like it's important to say that gay married couples who live in states and countries that don't recognize gay marriage *are still just as married as anyone else*, it's just that the government is refusing to recognize their (completely real and legitimate) marriage. Similarly, slaves really were fully people, even if the government didn't recognize them as such.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:07 PM
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I'm surprised at the OP's certainty about overturning prop 8 and DOMA. I'm assuming they'll stand, just based on the court's conservative majority. I don't see how the court overturns them on equal protection grounds. Are there other grounds for overturning? I am very much not a lawyer, so this stuff is a bit mysterious to me, and I'm going based on the sense that three justices are raging assholes, one is a bit of a prick, one seems to be a split-the-difference centrist, and the rest are varying degrees of OK.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:07 PM
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13 -- I would have agreed with your pessimism just a year or two ago, but times have changed. Or so I hope (but also think).


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:08 PM
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I mean, times have also changed to the point where elite lawyers take seriously batshit insane theories about a narrow commerce clause and the federal government's inability to provide a basic modern administrative state, so let's not all start blowing each other just yet.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:10 PM
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8: Speaking only for myself and I guess Lee, I don't consider our commitment to each other to be different from the commitment we would have on an interpersonal level if we were legally married. It would be nice on a lot of fronts to have access to those legal benefits, but we don't have that access now and that hasn't changed the love that we have for each other. So from that perspective, marriage feels more like a formality.

We are somewhat unusual among our lesbian peer group in not wanting to have an extralegal wedding, and I think people in the church sort of look down on us for that, but we'd both independently decided we'd be more comfortable saving the ceremony for when it "counted" and making our commitment to each other personally and privately. I know there are a lot of people who think they're doing important advocacy or activism by being extralegally married and saying "my wife" or "my husband" and I support that, but we're taking the tack of saying "my partner" and letting it be a constant reminder that we're not able to get some of the privileges straight couples can.

Though there was a time several years ago, before we were parenting, when we were asked to be taste testers for the culinary students at Lee's school and Lee let the chef in charge know that one of the nights was our anniversary and so the students made a special romantic tasting menu of paired dishes for us and I was completely blown away that we were being treated just like any "normal" couple, so it's all complicated.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:11 PM
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8, 12: I didn't think I was thinking about legalities and benefits when I got married either. But I do think the legalities issues drive a culture of marriage among stable people who are in relationships that feel like they're likely to be permanent; that if there weren't important benefits-related issues, there'd be a lot more permanently-shacked-up-but-unmarried couples, just because the culture would drift that way.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:11 PM
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There are a lot of conservative lawyers making conservative arguments for overturning DOMA, including Ted Olson. They're really trying to give the conservative justices cover for making a conservative minimalist federalist anti-DOMA decision if they want to. It seems pretty plausible that Kennedy and Roberts (maybe even Alito, not sure who hangs out with) don't want to make an anti-gay decision and might be happy to find an excuse to make a small step in the right direction rather than the wrong direction.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:13 PM
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17: I think you see that in Europe. But even in Sweden you still have the majority of people getting married at some point. The effect is real, but I think it's pretty clearly not the overwhelming cause of people getting married.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:15 PM
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if there weren't important benefits-related issues, there'd be a lot more permanently-shacked-up-but-unmarried couples

As there are in enlightened, topless.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:17 PM
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I think 12 is totally right, but I'll also say that (again, from my experience) it's frustrating and saddening to live where the reality of your life is not recognized. It really hurts me (as I'm sure everyone knows, since I've whined about it many times before this thread) that I'm not legally Mara's mother even though I've done more mothering for her than anyone else in her life has. I think it would be emotionally hard for me to have to write in caveats on my tax returns. Other people are strong enough and brave enough to do it, but I would feel depressed.

Signing our wills and creating a trust for Mara felt really amazingly like marriage and recognition, Lee and I both felt. I'm sure being able to marry in a way we found satisfying would/will be wonderful. I'm just not ready to be that vulnerable until my options are better, I guess.

(And none of this is meant to parallel the example of slaves as people, for the record.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:17 PM
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22

Totalpwn.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:17 PM
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Oh, that's right. Religious people would still get married, which is most of the population, and so would people with a traditionalist bent. But someone like me would be more likely to avoid the godawful party planning and just make things quietly permanent.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:18 PM
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20: I've forgotten the details of the conversation, but I was just talking to someone who was waxing lyrical about the European welfare state, and I had to bite my tongue not to call it enlightened topless Europe.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:21 PM
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I probably should've avoided any analogy. I was just trying to find other examples of notions that are fundamental enough that the governments opinion doesn't matter. (Like I wouldn't say someone "really" has a driver's license if they're good at driving but don't have a license from the state.)


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:23 PM
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25: No, I think you were absolutely right in the way you framed it. I just didn't want to extend it from there.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:24 PM
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23: You might not have a wedding, but you'd still end up calling him your husband, right? We eloped, and I still don't think it's the benefits that were the main point of getting married. (Though this is slightly more complicated, if it weren't for the benefits we might have put off eloping longer while deciding whether to have a wedding or not. So it's not totally clear how that would have played out.)


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:26 PM
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one seems to be a split-the-difference centrist

But good on this issue.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:26 PM
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*Godawful* party planning. I am getting through it, insofar as I am, by muttering to myself `It's not about me. This is for the family.' and wondering how soon we'll know if we need a larger venue.

Homemade cake in a VA hall, shouldabeen. That would have worked in the East Bay, which has an amazing surplus of dance floors in VA halls. Seattle, not so much.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:26 PM
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*Oh* how selfcentered of me. Congratulations on every warm little milestone, Thorn. (And a foofy Easter dress and basket do sound like they're in order.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:28 PM
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31

Many conversations ago here, I suggested (and I think it was a fairly common suggestions) that the cut-the-Gordian-knot solution to gay marriage was to eliminate all legal consequences of marriage: create a 'civil partnership' status open to all with all the legal consequences you want, but make "marriage" purely religious and social. That way anyone who wants can be civil partners without pissing off the social conservatives too much, and if you want to get married you can find yourself a priest/rabbi/minister/guy-named-Starchild to do whatever ceremony they and you can agree on for your own private purposes.

This made people mad, though, for reasons that confused me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:30 PM
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My impression is that Kennedy is not really a "split-the-difference centrist" (that would be O'Connor) but is instead a "wildly swing back-and-forth centrist." (With the caveat that they're only centrist relative to recent courts.)


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:30 PM
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Gawdhelpme, clew, I bought them mini American Girl dolls for their baskets. Because this week is an anniversary for both of them of their entry into care and they're extra prickly, and Nia was asking why Mara has so many dolls with brown skin and she doesn't have as many. So now Mara will still have as many more, but they'll each have one more than they did previously. And they each have lovely dresses (Mara's same as last year's and Nia's big enough for next year) and matching sweaters in different colors. I guess I should get myself a colorful dress or something so I can sort of keep up. We've never gone to our church for Easter before, so I don't know how much of a production it will be.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:32 PM
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31 is effectively the case in California; you can register for domestic partnership status that has all the legal entitlements of marriage but not the title. Still creates issues for federal law purposes, of course.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:32 PM
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I'm surprised at the OP's certainty about overturning prop 8 and DOMA.

You're surprised that I made up some poorly-understood bs and spouted it?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:32 PM
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31: In particular, say a mother and daughter jointly raising their daughter/granddaughter could be civil partners if they wanted to.

The main problem with this approach is that people rarely get legally married to someone they're not actually married to, but would have no qualms about being "civil partners" with anyone. This might not actually be a big problem, but it is a potential problem.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:32 PM
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27: Well, I'm not sure. I really wasn't thinking about the legalities at all, just that getting married is what you do when you're serious. If not-getting-married was an equivalently sensible option, though, I might have felt differently and been calling him my partner or something.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:33 PM
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36: I think the answer to that would be that it's all fine, no reason not to.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:34 PM
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39

Haaaaaats, Thorn. Adorable flowery haaaats. Even -- bonnets.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:36 PM
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39: If you think I am going to put however much time it's going to take to get all Nia's cornrows out and turn them into whatever they're going to be next and ditto un-bantu knot Mara's dreadlocks, wash, retwist, and re-bantu knot and THEN hide their heads under hats that I would have to go buy for one use, you are so, so wrong. But I think they wanted matching barrettes or something, and I can probably make that work.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:39 PM
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Fascinators, like Princess whatserface with the alien strapped to her head. Some kind of ornament that doesn't hide the hairstyle.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:40 PM
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They can be this summer's sun-hats with an extra band of flowers, the latter to go into the dressup box. But okay. Flowers on the barrettes. (Pompom chicks seem to be au courant, but I am dubious.)

(Cuuuuuuuuuuuute haaaaaaaaaats.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:42 PM
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Weave flowers throughout their hair. Paint red circles on each of their cheeks. Bells on their shoes. You don't want them to be the only little girls without flowers, circles, and bells, do you?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:42 PM
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Fascinators, like Princess whatserface with the alien strapped to her head.

I have missed a meme. Unless this happened at Ascot? The pomo bow?


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:43 PM
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No, it was at the wedding a year or two ago. There were all sorts of pictures of some second-tier princess with a ridiculous thing on her head. Less coverage and more tentacles than anything you'd call a hat.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:44 PM
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46

Let me google.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:45 PM
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47

Lee says I'm not allowed to add more things to the dressup box because it's clutter and we should be getting rid of toys rather than adding more. Though obviously since the bulk of it was the dressup box of my childhood, it's vintage clutter!

Lee also doesn't want me using visible weave thread in any of the weaving-of-things-through hair I do, which is too bad since Mara's locs won't hold the beehive (spiral flat twist) style she likes without thread or maybe bobby pins, though I don't usually mess with those.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:45 PM
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48

Like so.

I think I'd remembered it slightly sillier than it actually is, although it is pretty silly.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:46 PM
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49

Didn't someone wear a super silly hat to Obama's first inauguration? Arethra Franklin or something?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:48 PM
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50

Nowhere near as silly as the goofball in 48.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:49 PM
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51

I'd call it a hat, as Treacy & PB both have.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:51 PM
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Aha! Wikipedia calls it a fascinator! That's a totally unnecessary word; hats that need to be pinned on have been formal headwear for yonks (Miss Manners: "appear to have perched on the head") and the largest hair ornaments were already larger than the smallest hats. And now a fascinator seems to be renamed a "smoke ring".

Howevs, Wiki & Etsy have spoken. Fascinator, descriptively. And that one did fascinate.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:56 PM
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52: Would you like to join me in being slightly annoyed by knitters who call smoke rings "snoods" instead?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:58 PM
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52: haven't formal hats that need to be pinned on been called "fascinators" for yonks?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 12:58 PM
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UPETGI, You get that 8.last and 12 are a little patronizing in context, right? I'm not wild about the term "mansplain" but...


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:00 PM
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I've never heard 'smoke ring'. What do they look like? Googling, I'm getting lost in pages about tobacco smoke.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:01 PM
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Fascinator as a term for headgear is attested back to the late 19th century, but the modern iteration dates to the sixties or seventies or so.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:03 PM
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58

Congratulations! Long veils and taffeta trains for everybody!


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:03 PM
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LB, it's just a big tube that you can wear as a cowl or pull up over your hair, often lacy, sometimes mohair. I believe there's a pattern for one in this book and that's how I learned the term.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:06 PM
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You look like Barrister Raggedy Ann, that's so fascinating.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:06 PM
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54: It's a steampunk term, AFAICT, so only a very short yonk.

53: I would just be confused in practice. What do they call snoods, and where does my hair go?

56: restrict to Ravelry.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:06 PM
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55: Yes, I was conscious of that, but perhaps not conscious enough.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:07 PM
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59, 61: So it's a cowl. Although after googling patterns, I wonder if Sally would wear one. Not for me, but they're cute.

Eh, she won't wear anything warm, ever. Her rugby team makes fun of her wearing shorts and a t-shirt in the snow.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:09 PM
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My theory of Justice Kennedy is that he's basiclaly a right winger, but he's also a former law professor. H eknows that the Supreme Court justices are those who established a bold new constitutional right to something. He didn't want to do anything useful for poor people or for criminal defendants, or ayhting that would cost large corortaions anything, so he chose gay rights. He'll probably write a fairly broad opinion favoring same sex marriage, as he did in the only two other major gay rights caes since he's been on the Court. Roberts will go along because he's the chief and that's what he does, so at least 6 votes for the good guys.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:10 PM
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65

That is, I was going for trolling but trying to avoid asshole.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:11 PM
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60: See, I would call that macaroni.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:11 PM
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66: I don't see a feather or a hat.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:12 PM
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Ah, so a "cowl" and a "smoke ring" are other words for a snood.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:14 PM
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The article in 57 only claims that Treacy introduced the things now called fascinators at midcentury, it admits that it can't pin the word on him. (Also, terrible History Channel style article: why bring in hairstyles ancien regime?)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:14 PM
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68: No, a snood is a loose hairnet. Topologically, a cowl/smoke ring has a hole in it, but a snood is a closed bag for your hair.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:15 PM
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Oh LB, so sheltered: "[T]he joke Dr. Richard Schuckburgh was making in the lyrics being that the Yankees were naive enough to believe that a feather in the hat was a sufficient mark of a macaroni."


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:17 PM
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69: so you are claiming that until steampunk people called them "cocktail hats"? I call maximum shenanigans.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:18 PM
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n-gram search does not so much help.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:19 PM
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65: Fair enough. I guess it rubbed me wrong.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:22 PM
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My apologies. I can certainly see how it could have done so.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:25 PM
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72 cont'd: although, I admit, the idea of people who think steampunk is a good idea for some reason resuscitating a victorian term for pinning random crocheted things to your head is in some ways more plausible than a mod '60s design maven doing same.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:25 PM
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I think back in the day "fascinator" meant something different than what it means now -- a shawl, rather than a little hat to perch on your hair. Remember in The Long Winter when Pa opens the (late-arrived) Christmas barrel and it's full of warm winter clothes, including a fluffy blue fascinator for Mary?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:29 PM
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Although, if the modern usage were steampunk derived, you'd think a modern fascinator, which is in fact a cocktail had, would have more to do with a Victorian fascinator, which is sort of a veil/shawl hybrid.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:29 PM
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Oh I see I've been pwned. Per usual.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:30 PM
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31: [Cleaving civil unions (gov't) and marriage (religios and social)]This made people mad, though, for reasons that confused me.

I was mentioning that very comment tthread to my wife while we were discussing the court cases over the weekend. I guess I should try to find it in the archives.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:30 PM
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Between 1969 and late-Goth/early steampunk, almost no USians wore cocktail hats or referred to them at all. And really good ones were dead cheap in junk shops & I should have bought more.

I can't unpick the meaning "coquette" out of the ngrams. The 1955 peak is far too early for Treacy, too.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:31 PM
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Wilder might explain the 1955 tiny peak... No, that's between the novel & the show. Well, fashion is weird.

The anachronisms of steampunk are illimitable.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:36 PM
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I now have "Fascinated" by Company B stuck in my head. Somebody should really sync the drunk Ron Swanson gif to that.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:39 PM
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All the annoying posh commenters during Prince William's wedding were talking about this and that person's fascinator. I really don't think they took it from steampunk.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:44 PM
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The british royal family is totally steampunk, though. You know some of them are actually direct descendents of Queen Victoria? Sick!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:46 PM
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IMO, the object in 48 is not actually the silliest thing Princess Beatrice has ever put on her head.

I have this theory that she's a secret Daniel Pinkwater fan.


Posted by: Micah | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:54 PM
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84: No, much more likely the reverse, probably through some steampunks who watch a lot of BBC frockporn. And posh ingroups rework vocabulary all the time, so one needn't seek a rational path from cowl to barrette.

Don't know where the `punk' went.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 1:54 PM
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While I'm on my obs. hat redoubt, hey, what's up with mocking Franklin's hat? Women's formal hats are supposed to be showy, and hers filmed well and was suitable for the inclement weather.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:01 PM
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89

You're surprised that a 12 inch bow got reported in the media as silly? When I actually looked it up, I said it was nowhere near as silly as the goon in 48.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:06 PM
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I think snood for smoke ring (which, really, I had never ever heard of before, though cowl I had heard) is also a British bleed-over, as they're quite popular among my friends that knit here and they only ever seem to have called them snoods. (Ladies in their 50s.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:09 PM
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As long as we can agree that gluing a decorative toilet seat to your forehead is definitely silly, formality of the occasion notwithstanding.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:09 PM
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Also, congrats to Thorn and Lee, on the for-the-girls and incredibly sweet engagement!


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:10 PM
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Y'all remember those things that were hoodies but without the -die, just arms and a hood? What were those about, '90s?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:10 PM
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93: No, no I don't. I can sort of picture a freefloating hood on kind of a dickie thing, but arms?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:11 PM
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Are you talking about shrugs? Those don't generally have a hood, though.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:20 PM
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Like a shrug with a hood?


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:20 PM
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Shruglies?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:20 PM
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31/80: I'm pretty sure this is the post* (by Stanley) and comment thread. Also a lot of prior Prop 8 discussion in this thread following this comment.

* My zany and not-fully-sussed-out position on the issue is: no governmental recognition of marriage for anyone. Government at all levels* should view marriage as it does, for example, Catholic baptism: it's a private matter, not subject to public purview.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:21 PM
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I LOVE Beatrice's butterfly fascinator in 86.

I guess the term is now "smokering," but they used to be called "cowls"--I have two of these, which retail for $insane.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:31 PM
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90: I always thought of "snood" as pretty "Wife of Bath's Tale," but it is also very much in use in the uber orthodox lady community, since they're an easy way for them to cover their hair without putting a whole wig on.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:33 PM
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Is Sifu thinking of snoods? I guess that's what 100 suggests.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:35 PM
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I LOVE Beatrice's butterfly fascinator in 86.

I like it, too.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:36 PM
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100: I didn't mean to suggest that a Canterbury Tales snood was anything but a snood, but that the thing being called here a 'smoke ring' is also called a snood. But I could be confused. I still don't know what the Brits call proper turtlenecks, other than what they do call turtlenecks definitely aren't turtlenecks. I hate having to call tank tops vests, while I'm moaning.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:38 PM
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101: What? No. Snoods do not have arms. As LB says above, snoods are basically tubes closed on one end. You stick your hair in the closed part and then pull them up over your head.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:38 PM
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Y'all remember those things that were hoodies but without the -die, just arms and a hood?

What would connect the arm and hood?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:40 PM
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I always thought of "snood" as pretty "Wife of Bath's Tale,"

Whereas this is what I think of whenever I hear the word "snood".


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:40 PM
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Jackmormon's 99 leaves me ever more confused. What my coworkers are calling snoods are really just a closed loop, like a scarf that's been knit together. You could pull them up over your hair but it's not done often. Also, it's a smokering, not smoke ring? eh?


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:43 PM
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107: Maybe it's a Britishism? That would explain the article in 106.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:45 PM
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I don't know what these arm-hood contraptions might be, but the description makes me think of the wtfical Cleaves pattern. My aunt, who's extremely petite and fashionable, made one for some reason and even she definitely couldn't pull it off.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:47 PM
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What would connect the arm and hood?

I think Tweety's thinking of a shoulder holster.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:48 PM
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108: That was my original supposition in 90, and I think it does explain 106. I'm not sure if the term is new or not, though.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:48 PM
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wtfical indeed.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:48 PM
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111: Yeah, that sounds right. If you pull a cowl up over your head, it looks a lot like a US/oldfashioned snood, so expanding the term makes sense. And then once you've done that for cowl-pulled-over-your-head, having it mean just cowl also makes sense.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:50 PM
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I haven't been paying that much attention, but will be pleasantly surprised in the Prop8/DOMA decision is the route predicted above.

I'm still feeling pretty uncharitable towards that bunch: Kennedy for ATP and all of them for declining Latif.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 2:54 PM
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The things I'm thinking about were essentially what you would get if you took a (long sleeved) hoodie and cut it off just below the armpit. They were popular in ravey circles in SF for a little window there in maybe '99-2000.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:21 PM
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Well, fashion hasn't changed, so we should see them all over the place.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:37 PM
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115: You have finally described something I totally remember. I think Buffy or someone like that wore one once.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:42 PM
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A shrug with a hood may be it? Or at least is super close? related to this very closely, definitely.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:50 PM
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Yes! Hooded shrug.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:51 PM
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So not a chopped off pullover hoodie. I was picturing something far stranger. Right, that's just a shrug with a 90s twist.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:52 PM
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119: Oh, it does have a bit that goes across the chest. And it does look stranger.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:52 PM
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How is 119 not a chopped off pullover hoodie? I mean, with a little fiddling here and there, but same premise.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:53 PM
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Oh, okay. Yeah!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:53 PM
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There's a 10,000 character limit for this recommendation, and mine is at 1300, and I have nothing more to say about this student. I think she'll do great in the program, but I've said what I know/remember about her. I feel like I'm stuck in English class again.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 3:56 PM
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124: Use the extra space to share your views on the rate of change of fashion for the hiring committee.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:09 PM
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Repeat the substance of your rec six more times, using, in each iteration, the next listed synonym in the thesaurus for each word of your original letter.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:12 PM
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Use the rest of the space to express yourself with emoticons.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:13 PM
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Draw an ASCII portrait of your student.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:14 PM
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EJ Graff is optimistic about the Court's decision.

I would also like to rule in favor of Easter bonnets, referring to small veils & feather doohickeys attached to hats as fascinaters, and referring to long, knitted/crocheted yarn tubes as cowls or hooded cowls. And congrats, Thorn, even if it was kinda jokey.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:15 PM
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A friend of mine knitted something like a hooded scarf. It was a very distinctive-looking garment, and not one I'd happily wear in public.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:16 PM
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Fill the rest of the rec with spaces, until you get to the very very end, where you finally tell the school what you really think of the student. (Like a hidden track. Kids these days don't even know what is anymore, do they.)


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:16 PM
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Oh also I thought Sifu was talking about these things.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:19 PM
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132: I wasn't but boy those stupid things seem to be all the rage.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:22 PM
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At a posh shop in Oxford a few years ago, I bought an net-based feathery object that attaches to my hair via a comb. I was informed by the proprietor that this object, being larger than your typical fascinator, was properly designated a hatinator. Never seen the word anywhere else, but I love the object dearly and am sad that I bought it after nearly all our friends had already married, and consequently I will likely have no occasion to wear it again. (Hint, hint, Thorn.)


Posted by: Gabardine Bathyscaphe | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 4:50 PM
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At work, can't read the rest of the thread, but Wooooo marriage!! to 1.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 5:13 PM
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134: The most obvious place for us to get married is around the corner at the desanctified church our friends own, where we held Mara's blessing ceremony and where the garden club meets and the epic neighborhood Halloween party is held. The woman in that couple has the biggest fascinator collection I've ever seen (including one to which she hot-glue-gunned naked Barbies) and so I suppose I should make plans to outdo the hostess if we end up there.... At this point, they charge less for gay weddings than they do for straight ones to counterbalance the legal mismatch, which is nice.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 5:37 PM
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118, 119 and 132 are what I think of when I hear the word "pillock"

All the young dudes, carry their snoods, all the young dudes


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 5:43 PM
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128 is extra good for being 128.

Hatinator. Huh. Well, may you find occasion to wear it, Gabardine.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 6:14 PM
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132: TWYRCL has something like that and loves it ridiculously.

136: Does no one ever cold-glue-gun anything? I don't even know this country anymore.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 6:41 PM
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139: Out here in real America, Flip, we take our Second Amendment rights to hot glue guns seriously. If it was good enough for Great-Great-Grandma, it's good enough for me!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 6:53 PM
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Spirit hoods, really? *Furries* are mainstream?

The sporran terminations are fine.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 6:57 PM
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Our two and three year olds wear something like in 132.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 7:14 PM
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Also, I would like to celebrate the fact that, while I'm still at Heebie U at the moment, this is my last late night on campus of the school year. SAYONARA, SUCKERS. Two more weeks for me!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 7:16 PM
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I'm not sure what you guys are talking about (other than that it's not marriage), but it brought to my mind something like these (is there a name for them other than "medieval peasant hood"?) which also bring to mind executioner's hoods which sometimes drape about the shoulder.

Bonus Unfogged-related search program activities learning: I now know what a "liripipe" is. And a "liripoop." And that Wikipedia has an entry titled "Inherently funny word."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 7:44 PM
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144: so useless that it's not a list of inherently funny words.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 8:01 PM
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There's also a TV Tropes page.

"Wankel engine" gets my vote.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 8:19 PM
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Somewhat less funny if pronounced in the German way.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 8:20 PM
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Wankel engines are awesome, though. The Napster guys all had RX-7s and used to go on about the radness of those engines.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 8:21 PM
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I just got an email from Google Plus telling me I was friended by one Swimmy Fish. I feel like this should be a relative of yours.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 8:23 PM
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I disavow all other Fishes. All other Tweetys, too, for that matter. And I am sick of other Sifus following me on twitter because they think I'm going to talk about martial arts or something.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 8:27 PM
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The Napster guys all had RX-7s

I'm going to pretend you didn't say that because cannot process.

I fucking loved the Rx-7 and Rx-8. One of my biggest bonehead moves ever was not getting one. Now I don't think there's a Wankel Engine in any major production car. Tears.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 9:22 PM
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I think you'd like 'em, Halford. Fanning's fiancee is all into crossfit.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-25-13 9:27 PM
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COME WITH ME IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A STYLISH HEAD.


Posted by: Opinionated Hatinator | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 2:24 AM
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124. Lorem Ipsum is your friend.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:31 AM
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124: 1) repeat the recommendation, translated into French. If asked why, pretend to be Canadian.

2) intersperse asterisks freely, as if you were H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N. That's doubled the character count right there. While you're at it, rewrite in the style of a recently arrived comic Jewish immigrant from eastern Europe. ("This student is BIG POTENTIAL! Her learning is MUCH PROMISE!")

3) in order to make the recommendation look longer, triple-space it, like Bunny in The Secret History. ("Looks kinda like free verse, doesn't it?" he said proudly. Henry snorted. "Looks kinda like a menu.") Mention her outstanding contribution to the study of metahemeralism.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 4:26 AM
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H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N

Deep cut.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 5:50 AM
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Also who the hell asks for* 10,000 characters in a recommendation? I'd be tempted to warn the student against going to the place. If I had to provide 10,000 characters about myself, beyond 8k I'd be down to describing particularly notable bowel movements or satisfying nights' sleep.

*I know, it's a max limit. And probably aimed at the kind of CT commenter that never misses the point pithily if they can miss it with pompous, erudite excess.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 6:31 AM
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157.2: Commenter, or front-page poster?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 6:33 AM
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Deep cut.

???


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 6:55 AM
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|| Speaking of the USSC, today's opinion has 4 dissenters, and 3 concurrers. You'd think Kagan (author of the concurrence) would get the opinion, with Scalia (author of the court opinion) would have concurred (Thomas joining), but I guess not. The senior judge on the winning side gets to assign the opinion, I think, and that was Scalia. He'll point to this decision as evidence that he's not result oriented. |>


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:20 AM
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159: It was a much grosser porno from the 70s.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:22 AM
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There's an opinion published today? I'm confused by 160. Aren't we waiting for the hearing to start?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:24 AM
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162: They announce and release opinions and orders on argument days, if any, at 10:00 am, before arguments start. Just takes a minute or two usually. The argument will have started right after that.

160: I don't follow. If Scalia and Thomas didn't agree with what Kagan wrote (which they clearly didn't*), how could she get the opinion rather than a concurrence?

*S&T didn't want to go beyond a physical intrusion approach, whereas Kagan et al. also thought the search violated expectations of privacy.


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:32 AM
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What's usually in these opinions? What's the function of releasing opinions before you've heard the arguments?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:37 AM
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164: Oh, sorry, no: the opinion released this morning was in a case that was argued months ago. Nothing to do with gay marriage. Drug-sniffing dogs on your front porch case.


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:39 AM
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161: I just associate it with this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4856148.stm


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:39 AM
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Oh that makes way more sense.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:45 AM
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166, 161: y'all are nasty.

My idioms are unstoppable.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:49 AM
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Oops. My links are stoppable.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:50 AM
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159: I suspect Sifu was mimicking the penchant for American commercial radio stations to lablel something a "deep cut" if it is not a single or a track that gets much airplay. H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N not only not being a staple of popular culture, but probably not very familiar to folks here.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:53 AM
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170: But very familiar to some of us! I'm sure ajay would big department for any confusion.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:55 AM
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That'll learn me to pause and do some work in the middle if writing a comment. I mean. like fuck my boss, who does he think he is that he can come over and talk to me.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:56 AM
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I might "big department" if I could even figure out what that could even possibly have been supposed to be.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 7:58 AM
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173: beg da pardonment


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 8:02 AM
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171: But very familiar to some of us!

Sure, but you have the advantage of being from Kentucky.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 8:07 AM
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173: It's a particularly unfunny but relatively well-known H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N reference, essentially a mishearing of "beg your pardon."


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 8:07 AM
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Perry argument over. Scotusblog says Kennedy isn't going for a flat-out equal protection right to ssm. But will leave Prop 8 invalidated. Not sure what they mean when they say Kennedy suggested dismissing--I guess as improvidently granted? Anyway, if their take is right it's very disappointing but not as bad as it might have been. Transcript and audio should be out later today.


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 8:55 AM
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Back to the OP, SCOTUSblog just freaked everybody out - unnecessarily, I think, since if they're right about Kennedy then Prop 8 still dies and the Court doesn't hem itself in with a decision.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 8:56 AM
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Confound it, while I was finding some definitive snood pictures, SCOTUSblog had to go and get everyone in a panic.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 9:02 AM
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ALITO: asked about "need to be cautious" .."Same sex marriage is very new...newer than cell phones or the internet."

The whole "getting too far ahead of public opinion" thing drives me nuts, but I genuinely don't understand how you can use it to rule again same sex marriage. Support has gone from 27% to 49% in something like 15 years.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 9:18 AM
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Could it be possible to be a worst justice than Alito? Harriet Miers would most likely been a bad justice, but she would have been a zillion times better than yet another old white guy bigot with "elite" credentials.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 9:55 AM
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181 - Associate Justice Janice Rogers Brown? Associate Justice An/n Alt/house? Associate Justice KILLBOT 9000?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:13 AM
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That first snood picture is particularly great, though, Kraab.

Same sex marriage isn't new. Not passing is new. Grrrr.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:16 AM
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181. G1enn Reyn01ds?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:19 AM
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How do you figure out which supreme court justice is talking? Any good rules of thumb for recognizing their voices?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:21 AM
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184: Heh. Indeed.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:24 AM
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182, 184: Yeah but those types are so over the top that they end up on an island (my argument does make assumptions about the others on the Court--a court full of Janice Rogers Browns wouldbe a disaster). I'm also assuming that competent and evil is worst than incompetent and evil.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:24 AM
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So it's easy enough to tell Kagan and RBG from everyone else, and also not difficult to tell them apart (Kagan sounds way younger). Thomas is also easy to tell (in that he's not going to talk). But that still leaves 6 people I have trouble with.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:33 AM
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Scalia's the one who sounds kind of like Rush Limbaugh.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:35 AM
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After reading 129.link, I wanted to read the Lawrence v. Texas oral arguments, but what was on supremecourt.gov didn't identify which justices were speaking. Is that available somewhere?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:37 AM
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170: ah, I see. That's the trouble with making references to other people's culture: I never know which bits of it are common knowledge and just assume that, if I know about it even in my frozen outpost, it must be famous in the metropolis.

I came across Hyman Kaplan through seeing the minister of my local Presbyterian church acting the part in a slightly unexpected outburst of amateur drama after service one day. He was so into it that it was vaguely scary. VE VILL VORK! VE VILL STRIVE! UND ALL - ALL! - FOR MR POCKHEEL!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:44 AM
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186: He could be a slightly more verbose Clarence Thomas, but limiting his utterances to his catchphrase rather than total silence.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:44 AM
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186:Well done


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:44 AM
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Oh, forgot Sotomayor for a minute. So I can tell RBG and Scalia, but not anyone else.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:45 AM
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Breyer sounds like an elementary school teacher.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:47 AM
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190: I don't think so. IIRC until a few years ago they consistently omitted names of which Justice was questioning, I think as a matter of policy (what policy, I have no idea--presumably some version of the policy that keeps TV cameras out of the court).


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:51 AM
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Breyer's accent is bizarre, this kind of weird patrician boston via San Francisco via whatever it is.

There are SO MANY worse potential justices than Alito, and that's not intended to praise Alito.

Lawyers: Is Tom Goldstein particularly well known as a good Supreme Court prognosticator, as opposed to just an attentive court watcher? He certainly is an awesome entrepreneur who created a great gig for himself. Anyhow, ducking an issue on narrow grounds when there's an opportunity to make big, ill-formed constitutional pronouncements just doesn't sound like Justice Kennedy to me, but what do I know.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:53 AM
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Kennedy sounds older than everyone else.

Man Olson has a fantastic voice. No wonder justices find him convincing.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 10:54 AM
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197.2: Give me a name.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 11:04 AM
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198.last: Although he should have been disbarred for his role in the Whitewater stuff.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 11:05 AM
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197: Before he made a name for himself as a court-watcher, he made a name for himself running a pretty successful Supreme Court-focused appellate practice. My good friend from college, who clerked for Roberts, seemed to think he knew what he was talking about.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 11:33 AM
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193: Yes, 186 made me "heh", indeed.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 11:35 AM
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Breyer sounds like an elementary school teacher.

My first thought was "he has a Kentucky accent?"


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 11:40 AM
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Vaguely related, does Ygglz really not understand that Republicans hate San Francisco because it's totally gay?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 11:59 AM
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Reporter faux-naivete?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:01 PM
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Maybe, but it's one of those posts of his where it's hard to tell if he's being disingenuous or actually doesn't know what he's talking about. He has plenty of posts where one or the other is obviously the case, so it can be hard to tell.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:03 PM
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And it's in California. Republicans just hate California, period.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:08 PM
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The Feinstein penumbra would be sufficient in itself. Really, it's overdetermined.

(Haters gonna hate.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:10 PM
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163.2 -- Two justices think A. Three think A and B. Four think not A and not B. Certainly the more natural result would be a plurality opinion that says A and B, and a concurrence that says only A.

114 -- I'm still not following this closely -- I'm all about a Butte roofing subcontractor dispute this week -- but it wouldn't be shocking to have a 2-3-4 result here as well, the two being Kennedy and Roberts for some sort of narrow formulation that lets states experiment but doesn't force red states to join in just yet.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:14 PM
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I'm afraid disingenuousness (is that the same thing as faux-naiveté?) is becoming ever more common as the internet discussions become ever more self-referential and rife with references to past internet discussions.

I can't even read these things Corey Robin posts on Crooked Timber. It's like the transcript of a cross-examination.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:26 PM
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209.1: I think the better way to think of it (and certainly the way the Court typically does) is that 5 Justices think A (impermissible physical intrusion), three think A & B (impermissible physical intrusion & violation of reasonable expectation of privacy), and 4 think not A and not B. So A is the opinion of the Court, A+B a concurrence with some non-binding additional reasons to reach the outcome.


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:31 PM
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[I just noticed that my junior senator has changed his fb profile pic to that pink on red equals sign.]


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:31 PM
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211 -- Net result would be the same, because the narrower opinion controls, but I don't think it's fair to say that there were 5 votes for 'A but not B.' Which is what you get when you let the smallest minority write the Court opinion.

Historians of the future will look at all the instances of opinions joined by only the 3 female justices, and derive something meaningful. I liked Kagan's stand of the front porch peering inside the windows with high powered binoculars analogy. (Which, for those of you not reading opinions, she says would be an intrusion on privacy, even where it would be ok for a stranger to be on your porch).


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:37 PM
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stand on


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:38 PM
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204-206: It's funny, I could imagine Yglesias not wanting to say that San Francisco is the Republican boogeyman because of the gay, just like NYC is the boogeyman because of the gay and the Jew; it's fight-picking in a way that he doesn't do all that much. But I can't see his not actually getting it, and if he does get it, I can't see what being disingenuous about it gets him, rhetorically.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:39 PM
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213.1: Well not really insofar as there's a distinction between opinion and holding. In your scenario there would be no opinion of the Court, even though there would be a holding. And I think the Court tries to have an opinion when it can, for sound reasons. And I'm not suggesting there were 5 votes for "A but not B"; there were 5 votes for "A, which is sufficient to decide this case."


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:44 PM
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It's also unclear why he would think the NRCC would give a shit about SF having "the third-highest pay for low-wage workers."


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:44 PM
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Maybe Yggles just ran out of unused hooks to hang a paragraph about how much he hates zoning laws on, so he's just reaching for random things now.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:49 PM
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Before it was totally gay, there were hippies. And before them beatniks. And there was a whole libertine Babylon by the Bay thing going on before that.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:51 PM
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I'm curious to know how much cheaper housing would be if we followed Yglesias's recommendations, but not curious enough to go out and research.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:53 PM
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His posts have been better lately, mostly because he's spending more time disposing Republican and centrist positions.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 12:57 PM
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"Yeah, of course gay men and women can get married. Who gives a shit?" said Chief Justice John Roberts, who interrupted attorney Charles Cooper's opening statement defending Proposition 8, which rescinded same-sex couples' right to marry in California. "Why are we even seriously discussing this?"
...
Moreover, when Attorney Cooper said that gay marriage could harm the moral fabric of the country and hurt the institution of marriage, Associate Justice Sotomayor asked, "What are you even talking about?" while Justice Anthony Kennedy reportedly muttered, "You got to be fucking kidding me," under his breath.
The piece as a whole drags a bit (as things in The Onion sometimes do), but it is pretty pitch perfect.

Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 2:28 PM
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220: More cities would be priced like Chicago.


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 2:31 PM
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223: That seems like a good way to think about it. Skyscrapers ≠ low cost of housing.
OT: All Things Considered is billing one of the segments of the SSI story as "The Disability-Industrial Complex". Are you guys sure it's intended to get people thinking about the plight of blue collar workers?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:06 PM
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That's one of the section headings from the article. Doesn't that just mean they're on the given segment?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:11 PM
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I missed that. My point is that is not a heading intended to inspire thoughtful compassion.


Posted by: Cyrus Q Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:13 PM
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This pseud change sucks, because even though I know it's Eggplant I keep reading it as "Cyrus, qua Eggplant" and get confused as to whether or not it's Cyrus.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:21 PM
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The degree to which it would reduce housing prices would be related to how aggressive the existing zoning is and how high the existing density is. There would be almost no affect on Manhattan, SF would see a massive housing construction boom in UMC priced housing. None of the new housing would be affordable for the poor, little would be affordable for the average person, but gentrification would decrease sharply since given the choice between upper middle class priced housing in an already upper middle class area or in a 'transitional' one, most yuppies would choose the former.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:22 PM
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It would be a really great thing if New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and the Silicon Valley had housing prices like Chicago. That said, I think the goal should be to get housing prices down even further to the Houston or Dallas level.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:24 PM
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It is a bit hard on the eyes.


Posted by: Cyrus Q | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:33 PM
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Wait, isn't there another Cyrus who comments on occasion?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:33 PM
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Sigh. Fine.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:36 PM
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There'd be at least some affect on Manhattan between more rapid development of currently slowly developing areas (Hell's Kitchen, Lower East Side, parts of Harlem, etc.) and indirect affects via rapid development of Brooklyn and Queens. It wouldn't lower housing prices on CPW, but there'd still be a noticable affect on Manhattan as a whole.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:36 PM
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"effect", people.

"effect".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 3:40 PM
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204

Vaguely related, does Ygglz really not understand that Republicans hate San Francisco because it's totally gay?

Republicans don't like San Francisco because Romney got 13% of the vote there. Not a lot of love among you all for places where Obama got 13%.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 4:35 PM
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Affect the change you want to be.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 4:41 PM
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On the OP, I've been struck by the opposition to gay marriage in France. Not so much the size of the demos - this is France after all and they do love their manifs, but the almost complete unanimity of the French right in opposing gay marriage, including young activists from upscale urban and suburban areas. Contrast that to the UK or even Germany where there's plenty of rumbling among younger, more social liberal CDU members in favor of gay marriage.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 4:48 PM
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Something to do with France's history of more explicit natalism, I wonder? (I understand that was how some of their social welfare programs got started in the 30's.)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 4:50 PM
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Isn't part of it that the stakes are lower, so it's cheaper symbolism to be anti-gay? Healthcare benefits are probably the single largest non-symbolic part of marriage, and that's just not an issue in France, right? So you don't get nearly the same number of stories about the cruelties and injustices faced by gay couples w.r.t. that sort of thing. Hence it's easier for conservatives to be "principled" in their bigotry and still engage in civil interaction with gay friends, relatives, etc.

I mean, I'm totally pulling this out of my ass, but it sounds plausible.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 5:22 PM
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My understanding us that legal gay (coupled) parenting is much easier in the US on the whole than it is in Europe, for whatever it's worth.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 6:05 PM
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212: I don't even own a senator.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 6:08 PM
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The Onion piece linked in 222 is quite enjoyable.

I haven't been able to read much of the thread, and I may be wrong-headed in this, but it would be fine with me if the Court decides either that the plaintiffs don't have standing, or that the case shouldn't have been heard in the first place. Don't know if I'm off-base in thinking so.

Drum was complaining about a lack of standing ruling:

Someone should have standing to defend Prop 8, and the case should be decided on its merits. The law may be an ass, but it should at least try not to be a coward.

But I'm untroubled.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 6:49 PM
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229: I am not sure a Houston/Dallas style arrangement is optimal from an environmental POV, but yes, Chicago is an actually existing case where things are non-terrible, not the platonic ideal of Yglesian growth-oriented housing policy.


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 8:07 PM
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241: Speaking as someone who is actually literally not represented in the Senate, fuck you.


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 8:09 PM
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People moving to San Francisco instead of Dallas or Houston is a huge environmental win due to heating/cooling costs.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 9:13 PM
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Yeah but all those microdistilleries have a big carbon footprint.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 03-26-13 9:17 PM
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On the OP, I've been struck by the opposition to gay marriage in France. Not so much the size of the demos - this is France after all and they do love their manifs, but the almost complete unanimity of the French right in opposing gay marriage, including young activists from upscale urban and suburban areas. Contrast that to the UK or even Germany where there's plenty of rumbling among younger, more social liberal CDU members in favor of gay marriage.

Three things:

1) The French conservative party is at war with itself after their disputed leadership election. Everyone's trying to gain positions of advantage, especially nominations for the local elections, before the re-run. So if you're a Fillonist district leader, you're under the gun to get the base mobilised, and if you're the Copeist challenger, you've got to do the same to compete. Further, if you're a Copéist you're trying to get the rightist base worked up, and if you're a Fillonist you've got to prove that you're not only a boring technocratic atlanticist neoliberal IT manager.

2) The French conservatives are in a knife fight with the extreme-right, and in some ways the internal fight is a reflection of this - a lot of people in the Copé faction are keen on an alliance with the extreme right, and the others in that faction are determined to out-extreme them.

3) I think there's a more or less conscious imitation of the Republicans post-2008 going on. They took a hell of a beating last year, losing the presidency for only the second time ever, by a thumping margin, losing the Senate and the National Assembly, losing a ton of mayors and regional councils, losing badly in basically every region of France, losing votes across the centre to the Socialists and also over the right flank to the extremists. And they then failed to elect a leader and ended up looking like chumps and crooks. What to do?

Basically, declare jihad about something emotional that fires up the troops. While they're hyperventilating about God, they can't be plotting against each other. And at least it gives the press something else to write about.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 03-27-13 2:57 AM
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I fucking loved the Rx-7 and Rx-8. One of my biggest bonehead moves ever was not getting one. Now I don't think there's a Wankel Engine in any major production car. Tears.

Norton started building a Wankel-powered motorcycle in the late 70s, just before they were killed stone dead by the first Thatcher recession.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 03-27-13 3:04 AM
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It's such a beautiful engine. I always thought it would be perfect for a motorcycle, being so smooth and light, but I guess smoothness may not be a big draw for riders.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03-27-13 7:07 AM
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Actually it was later than that, and the Major recession: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Classic


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 03-27-13 7:26 AM
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It looks like DOMA is going down. DOMA is going down!

Of course this is a bit premature, but if it happens, much praise goes to Edith Windsor for persevering.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-27-13 12:00 PM
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