Re: Resume Writing

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As someone who has hired people straight out of university, though not school, the main things I looked for were an absence of spelling/grammar errors (kind of important considering the job), language skills, and anything objective that would demonstrate genuine interest in the job (eg meaningful work experience/blogging etc, a course related to finance and/or journalism). To be honest, though, unless there's directly relevant experience, which is unlikely for high-schoolers, resume reading for me is mainly about weeding out the no-hopers than it is about anything positive. The interview is where you find out the positive stuff.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:10 AM
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...but what's a resume supposed to look like for a kid getting a first job? ...

Would most potential employers even expect a resume? I suppose you would want contact information, age, educational level, legal status and hours available for work (assuming we are talking about part time jobs while attending school). Perhaps something about the type of work wanted.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:27 AM
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You could show them pictures of Myspace and Facebook and point out which one has lots of colorful stuff and which one has billionaires. But maybe kids don't know what Myspace is now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:39 AM
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AP/IB/college courses that they've taken.
Job experiences.
Volunteer experience.
Any unusually big course project that they got recognition for - science fair, etc.
Church crap, or maybe that's just my students.

Resumes are pretty puny for a while, which is fine.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:02 AM
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At law school, because so many of the students are basically embryos who have never really worked a day in their lives, they tell you to put a brief (one or two line) "Personal Interests" section at the end so the potential employer will have something to make small talk about at your interview. But that's where the interview has a "maybe we're going to be professional colleagues" kind of feel; an interview for an admin might be more businesslike. On the other hand, if they have something interesting to put down, it might be a good idea.

Oh, have a section for extracurricular activities.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:10 AM
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Computer experience? I presume the kids these days are making their hippity-hop songs and YouTube mashups on the intertubes.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:31 AM
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From everything I read in the news these days, I thought all high school kids were geniuses who win national science fairs while curing Alzheimer's at their local nursing home, and all us olds could never get into college today if we had to compete with these superstars. So a resume should be easy. Except for all those kids who are jeopardizing our future by failing every standardized test and making us rank 59th in the developed world.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:51 AM
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Be sure to devote some time to the proper use of emoticons.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:04 AM
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Resumes are one of those topics that makes me just fall over dead right now. I recently sent mine to a friend, who said "I can't imagine this would interest someone who isn't a [my exact job title]" and advised me to make it much more general. I did so, and sent it to another friend, who said "this has no details. You definitely need a lot more details."

It reminded me that your resume almost never gets you a job. Knowing someone is the only marketable skill.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:17 AM
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The resume I sent with my college applications was like 15 pages long and listed pretty much every award I had ever won, like all the quizbowl championships and individual Science Olympiad events and whatnot. Someone should probably have told high-school-me that was too much.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:20 AM
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I don't even think my CV is that long even now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:21 AM
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Mine is at 9 pages now and I think I should probably trim a lot of that, like the list of all the seminars I've given.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:22 AM
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My CV is four years out of date. I should probably do something about that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:24 AM
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Do you people subscribe to the two-page maximum length resume theory? Resumes I get from Americans are generally two pages, because that's what they always told us in school. But resumes from non-Americans tend to be six or seven pages, and have space to fit in actual details of the various job experiences.

I feel like the two-page thing is a holdover from an era when resumes were printed out on paper, and job-hopping was a lot less frequent. Now that resumes are dealt with electronically, it seems a bit limiting.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:24 AM
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Birth weight and score on marshmallow test.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:25 AM
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If there is one idea I'd like to destroy, it is that just because you don't have to print it, you don't need to be brief. Who wants to read all that?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:26 AM
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You'd probably think better of me if I picked racism or something.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:27 AM
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You don't read it, you scan it for keywords.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:27 AM
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Then everybody will turn their resume into self-promotional click-bait.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:30 AM
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19: Self-promotion? In a resume?

How appalling!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:31 AM
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It was the click-bait part I was objecting to.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:32 AM
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An impressive-sounding thing to put on a thin resume is "2006 Time Magazine Person of the Year"


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:33 AM
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You don't read it, you feed it to software to scan it for keywords.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:34 AM
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21: A resume with hyperlinks?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:35 AM
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Do you people subscribe to the two-page maximum length resume theory?

Not as a hard and fast rule, no, but in general, in my line of work, shorter is better than longer. Most long CVs are long not because they're full of useful, relevant info but because they have rambly intros and are full of irrelevant crap like GCSE results and Duke of Edinburgh awards.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:35 AM
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I've just realized my CV doesn't have hyperlinks. I should fix that.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:37 AM
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The HR people seem to read a resume and check boxes based on the job description. This is, in my experience, worse than useless because job descriptions get written as a kind of group exercise in fantasy and wishful thinking. HR will then want to hire somebody who took the job description and re-wrote it as "experience" and HR doesn't know that somebody who could actually do all those things with any competency wouldn't be looking for $25/hour here.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:38 AM
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26: To your best Unfogged comments?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:39 AM
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There is frequently a lot of irrelevant crap that could stand to be cut, but I frequently see the opposite problem - when someone tries to squeeze in details on 8 difference consulting jobs into two pages. How am I supposed to evaluate the relevance about any specific work you did, if all I have is one short sentence that doesn't give any indication of the type of problems that were solved or the technology used?


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:39 AM
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27: ding ding ding


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:42 AM
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29: That's why you interview the best candidates. Or request a CV from those with interesting resumes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:45 AM
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All of this reminds me: I stumbled across this webpage the other day. In what field is that kind of thing the right way to put together a resume? It's not what I expect to see from someone who has a PhD in physics.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:46 AM
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There is frequently a lot of irrelevant crap that could stand to be cut, but I frequently see the opposite problem - when someone tries to squeeze in details on 8 difference consulting jobs into two pages. How am I supposed to evaluate the relevance about any specific work you did, if all I have is one short sentence that doesn't give any indication of the type of problems that were solved or the technology used?

Sure, I can totally see it being different in different fields. In my field, however, unless you're a freelancer you're unlikely to have more than a handful of jobs on your resume and they're all basically the same at heart.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:46 AM
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That's why you interview the best candidates. Or request a CV from those with interesting resumes.

That would be fine if you only had 5 or 10 resumes on your desk, but at my last job, I'd get stacks of 50 resumes at a time. At that volume, its all about efficient filtering. That means being able to do a high level scan, and then dive quickly into details as needed.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:56 AM
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I just throw away every resume that doesn't mention SAS. That cuts it down to two or three.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:59 AM
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35 is a good approach in hiring mercenaries.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 8:00 AM
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Or data managers.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 8:01 AM
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http://www.lib.ru/DPEOPLE/PARKINSON/parkinson.txt

Parkinson's Law on the Short List:

"The first step in the process is to decide on the qualities a Prime Minister ought to have. These need not be the same in all circumstances, but they need to be listed and agreed upon. Let us suppose that the qualities deemed essential are (1) Energy, (2) Courage, (3) Patriotism, (4) Experience, (5) Popularity, and (6) Eloquence. In other words, the successful candidate must be the most energetic, courageous, patriotic, experienced, popular, and eloquent man in the country. Only one man can answer to that description and his is the only application we want. The terms of the appointment must thus be phrased so as
to exclude everyone else. We should therefore word the advertisement in some such way as follows:

"Wanted-- Prime Minister of Ruritania. Hours of work: 4 A.M. to 11.59 P.M. Candidates must be prepared to fight three rounds with the current heavyweight champion (regulation gloves to be worn). Candidates will die for
their country, by painless means, on reaching the age of retirement (65). They will have to pass an examination in parliamentary procedure and will be liquidated should they fail to obtain 95% marks. They will also be
liquidated if they fail to gain 75% votes in a popularity poll held under the Gallup Rules. They will finally be invited to try their eloquence on a Baptist Congress, the object being to induce those present to rock and roll. Those who fail will be liquidated. All candidates should present themselves at the Sporting Club (side entrance) at 11.15 A.M. on the morning of September 19. Gloves will be provided, but they should bring their own rubber-soled shoes, singlet, and shorts."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 8:04 AM
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I wouldn't want a Prime Minister without SAS experience.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 8:07 AM
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It really is a mistake to help your adolescent create a resume without attending a professional workshop. It's not as though there are millions of examples of resumes to be found here and there.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 8:24 AM
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32: I think the field is profitable spinoffs. There's a man you can monetize!

I like the thumbnails for the patents.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 8:27 AM
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I suspect we're going to see more web pages akin to the link in 32. It's a clear & effective way for the man to list his achievements.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 8:34 AM
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I guess they should note that one interest is "rugby." Probably overkill to list security clearance(s) or whether they have a concealed carry permit.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:17 AM
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For a high school kid who hasn't had a great number of supervised positions, one page is probably enough to get across (1) contact info, (2) GPA/school stuff, (3) work experience (with responsibilities), (4) other experience, (5) other skills.

One of the schools I have taught at had the most amazing career office for helping students prepare really basic resumes, and they went over the whole "Your email address should not, e.g., threaten genocide or sexual assault" stuff. They also discussed how to write emails to professional people, which was probably even more important than the resume stuff. If you're 18, your resume probably doesn't do much for you. (Oh good, we were looking for someone with serious choral singing experience.) But your contact email/letter is the thing that will get your resume thrown in the garbage.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:20 AM
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That is, it's wickedly difficult for young people to figure out how to sound confident, competent, and hardworking without coming across as arrogant and delusional.

I always asked the career services person to come talk to my classes because it changed the way students emailed me. I wish they did it here at my current school; just yesterday I woke up to the most gratingly irritating email I've ever gotten, from a student I have never met, making a request that is actually pretty normal (wants to sign into my fall intro course, which has room in it), but in a way that was practically calculated to make me not want to respond. "I need to get into this course because I'm pre-med and my advisor says I can't go to med school if I have zero English classes on my transcript and yours sounds like the most basic one so I really really need you to be in your office tomorrow afternoon to sign my form. I am extremely stressed about this right now, and need you to respond ASAP to my email so I can get on with my life!" etc. The kid is probably not the world's most hateful person, but goddamn if he isn't trying.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:26 AM
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(Of course I'm signing the form. But he's got some lessons to learn about writing, obv.)


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:27 AM
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That is, it's wickedly difficult for young people to figure out how to sound confident, competent, and hardworking without coming across as arrogant and delusional.

It can be tricky for everyone, even some older ladies I know.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:31 AM
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|>
Twitter is so weird and dumb. I thought the academics might be amused/enraged/enmaged to read this thing I pointlessly responded to that Martha Plimpton, wonderful, unthinking Martha Plimpton twote: "I fully regret not pursuing the academic life. What on Earth could be better than getting paid to read, smoke, drink & talk?" Why am I talking to famous people I don't know who are almost definitely not listening? Why is the internet?
|>


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:32 AM
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Even for older people who have been working awhile, I've heard resumes shouldn't be more than a page or two at most. Something about being concise so that people will read the whole thing.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:33 AM
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"Your email address should not, e.g., threaten genocide or sexual assault" stuff.

Now you tell me.


Posted by: idi.amin@hotmail.com | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:37 AM
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I don't think I've ever hired any high school (or still in college) kid for anything other than a paper-filing externship type thing, and in all cases the hiring has been 100% driven by connections (either school or parent) and 0% by resume. I have no idea if fast food places or other businesses that really use high school kids as labor want resumes or not -- I'm pretty sure I didn't put them together for my high school summer jobs.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:38 AM
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41, 42: One of the things that surprises me about that site is the huge amount of media attention he's received for what appears to be (and I may be missing something, since nothing he does is really in my wheelhouse) a fairly ordinary fledgling academic career. Also, it bugs me that he claims to have "won" the 1999 Intel STS, when in fact he finished 10th place. (Something that only registered because I know the person who won that year, and at least in my book she's a lot more successful despite doing approximately zero self-promotion.)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:42 AM
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from a student I have never met, making a request that is actually pretty normal

I got a request that I'm pretty sure isn't very normal: a student at another nearby school wants to take my class in the fall (fine! pretty normal) but he's going to be out of the country for the semester and wants to arrange to take it by videoconferencing (wuh?).


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:44 AM
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I was expecting this thread to be more depressing, what with my never having gotten a real job, but I was pleasantly surprised.

I think AWB gets it right, here. Whether they make it into the professional/managerial middle class will depend on 1- jumping through the right hoops of young-person achievement, 2- making social connections that will get that resume on the shortlist, and 3- not alienating people with an off-putting cover letter/email; since 3 is really the only thing that can be taught in such a workshop, and it helps with the other two, one should focus on it.

Woo Monday!


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:50 AM
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I knew that guy in high school... I was also confused because I hadn't remembered him winning Intel, but assumed it was my faulty memory not that he'd lie on his résumé.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:51 AM
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The amount of not particularly notable high school and middle school(!?!?) stuff on that CV is truly hilarious. Any resume of someone over the age of 18 that lists CTY would be disqualifying if I were on the committee.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:56 AM
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Martha Plimpton twote

I always think the past tense should be "twat".


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:57 AM
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(Which I recognize would be impossibly ambiguous in a context such as 48.)


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:58 AM
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"I need to get into this course because I'm pre-med and my advisor says I can't go to med school if I have zero English classes on my transcript and yours sounds like the most basic one so I really really need you to be in your office tomorrow afternoon to sign my form. I am extremely stressed about this right now, and need you to respond ASAP to my email so I can get on with my life!"

GNASH.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 9:58 AM
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56: Also, listing all the declined fellowships. I don't know if there's unanimous agreement on that, but it always seems tacky to me. Like one postdoc I used to know who had a really bizarre, self-aggrandizing CV (and persona more generally) who eventually went into finance. His CV listed things like the "fellowship" by which Harvard pays all the first-year grad students in its department, which he had declined to go to Berkeley. So basically it was a way of saying "look where else I got into grad school!"


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:00 AM
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I would have a hard time criticizing that webpage or CV without sounding a bit jealous and self-defensive.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:02 AM
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Yeah. One or two declined listings is reasonable for things like an NSF fellowship or a Marshall scholarship, but that CV shows exactly what not to do.

I also love that it has his rank in his HS class.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:03 AM
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I dunno, that dude sounds like a self-aggrandizing weirdo but also way smarter than me (as well as likely to be much richer) and probably there are many people who would like to get into business with a way smart self aggrandizing weirdo.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:03 AM
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My high school class rank was #2. I also didn't rank in the top 10% of my class.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:07 AM
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Is that a math riddle?
Are we now beyond comparing SAT scores and income, and we're all going to post our resumes to the flickr pool?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:12 AM
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65.1: Just saying it was a small school.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:13 AM
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The thing is very little of it is actually that impressive. I could make a similar list as could dozens of other people. But most of us have the maturity to realize that no one cares about our 7th grade SAT scores any more.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:14 AM
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The kid is probably not the world's most hateful person, but goddamn if he isn't trying.

I assume you waited a good long while before responding.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:19 AM
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I will agree that being offered NDSEG, NSF, DOE, and Hertz fellowships is worth listing.
I call bullshit on the 1st of 550 at MIT- they don't do class ranks, I'm assuming he had a 5.0 GPA which means he was at best tied for first with x other people.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:23 AM
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But most of us have the maturity to realize that no one cares about our 7th grade SAT scores any more.

No one except Google.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:27 AM
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Most of the math contests he lists (except USAMTS) are really obscure, and he doesn't list anything for the actually good ones. So it's like he's advertising that he's not actually good at math competitions. (No Putnam, USAMO, IMO.). Ditto for the 7th grade SAT listings where you can work out he didn't get over 700 on either. It's clearly aimed at people who know nothing about what he's listing.

(IOI team and 10th at Intel are different. It's borderline whether they're still relevant at his stage of career, but at least they're legitimate achievements.)


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:33 AM
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51: If I can remember that far back, it seems to me that places like McDonalds (or People's Drug Store, that made the fatal error of hiring me) had job applications -- attaching a resume to the application might suggest the applicant was confused about the nature of the job.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:38 AM
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Lately I've been thinking about deleting some of my college awards from my CV, in part because I'm not sure anyone cares, and in part because it's now been five years since I've gotten any sort of award, and I feel like the story the awards section of my CV tells is "successful as a college student and then kind of trailed off into nothingness".


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:39 AM
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The only things I have listed before grad school are my undergrad degree and teaching experience.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:45 AM
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It reminded me that your resume almost never gets you a job. Knowing someone is the only marketable skill.

I was expecting this thread to be more depressing, what with my never having gotten a real job, but I was pleasantly surprised.

This was both unsurprising and deeply depressing.

"Ninety-nine percent of my interviewees received 70% of the jobs they held over their lifetimes with the extra help of friends or family members," DiTomaso said. These contacts "could give them inside information, use influence on their behalf, or offer them opportunities such as jobs or promotions not available to others." Job winners would then proceed to think they accomplished their goals on their own, DiTomaso says. "Those who are not part of the networks of people who can help you find a job are at a major disadvantage," she said.

Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:57 AM
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and I feel like the story the awards section of my CV tells is "successful as a college student and then kind of trailed off into nothingness"

Is this now officially the humblebragging thread?


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:10 AM
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TELL THOSE KIDS TO PULL UP THERE PANTS NOBODY WANTS TO SEE THEIR DRAWERS.


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:17 AM
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Is this now officially the humblebragging thread?

I got a B+ in the class where I was over my head.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:18 AM
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I'm writing a recommendation for essear.

His quest for the elusive secrets of dark matter led him to trail off into nothingness


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:20 AM
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My PhD commencement was super depressing, because:

(a) in a weird makeshift ugly space;
(b) terrible terrible undergrad speaker;
(c) someone got an award, but it wasn't me.

My stack of awards is not high.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:21 AM
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In other news, I wish that otherwise apparently intelligent people in my FB feed would stop referring to their "fur babies."


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:23 AM
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IYKWIMAITYD.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:25 AM
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Is that a cat or what?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:26 AM
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Someone Got an Award, But It Wasn't Me: A Biography of Peep


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:27 AM
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Ninety-nine percent of my interviewees received 70% of the jobs they held over their lifetimes with the extra help of friends
That seems ambiguous to me- arguably I got my current job with the help of a friend but it was someone I got to know from working with him at a previous job, and I presume my next job will be through a connection I made at this job. I think the problematic thing (wrt needing solutions like affirmative action, etc.) is early career entry where investment firm x hires rich white kid because his daddy plays tennis with one of the VPs. But I wouldn't expect much success, in a professional career path, if you're only cold calling help wanted ads when you're 50 because everyone you've ever worked with hates you.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:32 AM
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It's okay, I never expected much success anyway.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:37 AM
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I've only got eight years and a month to find somebody who does not hate me?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:44 AM
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Is that a cat or what?

Cats and also whats, yes.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:50 AM
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Dog, romantic partner, gummy bear under the couch for six weeks, ...


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:53 AM
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But I wouldn't expect much success, in a professional career path, if you're only cold calling help wanted ads when you're 50 32 because everyone you've ever worked with hates you you've never worked anywhere.

FTFY.

More seriously, the "first rung on the ladder" problem goes way beyond ibankers hiring Young Fauntleroy. I'm an unusually self-sabotaging case, but the more general problem is that the professional/managerial track has few certifiable prerequisites (trying to filter 200 resumes for "generally smart, can communicate effectively" means putting a lot of time into the process, and isn't so meaningful when someone else could have written the resume for the applicant), and no one wants to train entry-level hires, so internships become required, &c.

A huge part of the lure of Teach for America etc. is that it's a very well-established system for the "what do I do now?" problem.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:56 AM
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I thought it was a euphemism.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 11:56 AM
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No, they really do teach for America.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:01 PM
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It seems to me sometimes that the only same advice you can give any high school/undergrad student, especially one without amazing connections, is "become an engineer." I have no idea how I would have applied that advice to myself, but it does seem like the only sane advice to give.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:03 PM
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Teach for America

Argh, kill it with fire!


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:10 PM
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90: This would be how I ended up in law school -- it was a route to an entry-level career-type job that I could get without connections. That seems idiotic, but I really did come back from the Peace Corps completely puzzled about how to get indoors anyplace. (Oh, I temped my way into a couple of admin jobs -- I didn't have trouble getting work at all. But getting to a professional-type job flummoxed me.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:11 PM
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But I wouldn't expect much success, in a professional career path, if you're only cold calling help wanted ads . . .

The problem with the system in place (in which one is greatly aided by knowing somebody who already works somewhere before applying) is that it works fine until it doesn't, and it works often enough that there isn't a critical mass of people with an interest in figuring out something better.

It really would be nice if there was some way to successfully apply for jobs blindly; it would make it easier to manage life shifts (changing careers, moving to a new city, etc . . .). Most people manage to make it work but when you can't it's a huge hassle.

I don't know that I have any suggestions for improvements -- I'm hardly an expert on successful job hunting and I acknowledge the obvious potential for problems (for both employers and employees) in blind hiring and understand why work/social networks are so valuable. But, I say again, it wouldn't be nice if "applying to job listings" was also a functional way to find jobs.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:16 PM
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Actually, why hasn't Trapnel ended up in law school? It's usually where the chute lets out.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:17 PM
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97's commenter to 97.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:20 PM
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94 is right. Union Busting for America.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:25 PM
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97: Because law school doesn't work as a fallback for an academically inclined kid without any better ideas anymore? I walked out of law school into my choice of soulkilling but highly lucrative jobs because I graduated last century, like you did. If X went to law school now, or in the last few years, he wouldn't have the same outcome at all -- not because of anything different about him, but because the market's changed.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:30 PM
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and it works often enough that there isn't a critical mass of people with an interest in figuring out something better

There are plenty of such people; they just have no power, or capital.

The conversation I had with my cousin (high school dropout, no GED -> compsci PhD program -> MS -> Google) about hiring was really depressing. He hates how much time he spends every week doing hiring interviews, and says flat-out that if you don't know someone who works there, you have no chance unless you went to a top program or something like that, but sees no alternative to their current system.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:32 PM
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I'm going to stop moping about in this thread now, because it's making me sadder than usual.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:33 PM
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I feel like "become an engineer" is what the dorky but not very bright people I went to high school with did, with two notable exceptions.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:33 PM
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100 -- generally absolutely true, but I think in Trapnel's particular case he could still, even at this late date, go to a school where he could reasonably expect to walk out with a high-paying job defending corporate malfeasance.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:35 PM
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I'd like to think that if trapnel went over to the other side, he'd go all the way to committing corporate malfeasance instead of just defending it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:38 PM
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Having you as a connection to said field doesn't count, Halford.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:41 PM
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Is it too late to become an engineer?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:41 PM
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101: your cousin works for a company with a horrible reputation hiring-wise, at least among people with established careers. I don't doubt that they're convinced that the way they do it is the only way, but that doesn't make it true.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:41 PM
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Seconding 107.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:42 PM
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70 to 108.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:43 PM
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It seems like committing corporate malfeasance as an engineer might be more interesting than doing it as a lawyer. You could build a death ray or something.

More likely I suppose you'd just build shoddy bridges and dams & etc. that would collapse.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:45 PM
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I'd cosign 104 and 105.

I guess I've gotten jobs though "random" means, before and immediately after law school. And hired people, plenty of times, where there wasn't a connection before. I mean, sometimes I'll know the reference, but I never check refs until the very end anyway. I can only think of one time a ref was fatal -- 'she's great at solving problems, and if you don't have one, she'll make her own' wasn't exactly a great pitch.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:47 PM
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Is it too late to become an engineer?

For some people, yes.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:54 PM
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111. I don't know that any of Langley's planes were capable of sustained powered flight, and he did pretty well for himself.

I think that connections are extra-helpful during dry times (like now). In times or in subfields where there is growth, people find work with either no nepotism or through the most superficial acquaintances. I say this from looking around at the careers of the other physicists and ex-physicists I graduated with.

Most of them now work with computers, and very many people who make a living with computers were not trained as programmers or engineers.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 12:56 PM
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Superficial acquaintances really do seem to be the key. I've gotten two jobs (out of three professional jobs I've held) as a result of being hired by somebody who got my resume from somebody who interviewed me and didn't hire me. In other words, I was applying for advertised jobs but got ones that were not advertised yet.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:02 PM
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Anyway, I've been making an effort to talk to strangers more often. At first this meant that I got asked for bus fare all the time, so I narrowed it to talking to strangers in bars and offices.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:05 PM
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Is it too late to become an engineer?

For some people, yes.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:25 PM
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Argh, kill it with fire!.

Amen, brother.

I look at hundreds of resumes a year, and interview probably 50 or 60 people ranging from high-school students to new grads to mid-career and later.

In the nonprofit sector, at least in the several pieces of it I've worked in, your resume must be on one page. Period. CUT STUFF. If I want to know more, I'll ask.

Other tips I can offer, which may fall into the category of "Are there are really people who get this wrong?"

1. Make sure your e-mail address matches the name on your resume. I cannot begin to tell you how many I get from Peggy.Smith@yahoo.com with a resume for Jane Jones. PEOPLE! I don't care if you got married, adopted, divorced, nicknamed, or witness-protected, don't expect me to waste time guessing whether you actually are the person you say you are.

(Seriously, it goes to basic competence. If they're using someone else's e-mail account to send a resume then I don't want to interview them because they are either incapable or unaware of why it is important to have your own. And if they're too disorganized to make a Gmail alias....well, see above.)

2. Make sure your voicemail is functional. The number of times I get "voicemail is full" when I call back is amazing. Whether it's truly full or you just didn't pay your bill, I don't care -- and now I've moved on to someone else.

3. If you e-mail me with your phone number, do not avoid answering me when I call back. I will be able to tell if you are repeatedly screening me. Once is fine -- you are at work, you're on the subway, etc. -- but repeatedly, and/or saying "Oh, I never answer calls from unknown numbers" --- BZzzzzzt.

4. Do not include lengthy songs or prayers in any language on your outgoing voice message.

5. Accurately format the tech sections of your resume. If you say your e-mail address is sam@www.example.com, I will think that you don't know what a URL is.

6. Do not claim to be able to speak languages that you haven't studied in five years and can no longer say "How are you?" in.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:25 PM
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I've mentioned it before here, but I got this job through a distant blog-acquaintance. Not that he was the decisionmaker, but he shook my resume up to the top of the pile.

And with my boss have just decided to hire a new admin with no personal connection to anyone. I'm all pleased -- she seems too good for the job, but if she works for us for a year and a half and leaves for something better, that's still a good deal for us.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:30 PM
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Do not claim to be able to speak languages that are computed languages. I was amused/perturbed by this on some grad school applications. "Languages: English, French, C++, Java, Mathematica, Python"


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:30 PM
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Is 118.4 a repeated problem, or just one person who really stuck in your memory?


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:30 PM
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How can you tell if somebody is screening you? I'm asking for a friend who is screening in other contexts.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:30 PM
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-d+r


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:30 PM
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I'm going to stop moping about in this thread now, because it's making me sadder than usual.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to depress you; it's just one of those subjects which (thankfully) I don't have to think about very often, but which depresses me when I do so.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:31 PM
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111: The Revolt of the Engineers is not promising on this front.

On casual acquaintances, and also not being loathed by your coworkers; having a bunch of poorly correlated interests works for both. This is clew's Venn Diagram Theory of Getting Along: be able to talk with people on the grounds of nonzero intersections, not nonzero complements.

Nonzero compliments aren't bad either.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:31 PM
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118:

3: Seems harsh. I always assume that people nowadays are indisposed to take a call, and that they'll call me back during my office hours.
6: Comment allez-vous? (My best guess without looking it up.)

I just got a job via Facebook - an old colleague found out about a job, found my Facebook profile and messaged me. Damndest thing. It's made me a lot more attentive to social networking.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:32 PM
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In the nonprofit sector, at least in the several pieces of it I've worked in, your resume must be on one page. Period.

Urgh. See also "questions to which I have received conflicting, definitively stated answers."


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:33 PM
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You have a lovely pseud clew.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:33 PM
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Tech sections? Of your resume? I hadn't thought about it, but I guess it makes sense to have a section listing the tech types things you're master of. I guess I'd put that at the bottom, under "Skills."


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:33 PM
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127: I have a two page resume, but I'm guess I'm only technically at a nonprofit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:35 PM
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Nonzero compliments aren't bad either.

+1


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:39 PM
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Languages:... Python
Well, if you'd let them keep stuff on from high school you'd see that they were prefect of Slytherin house.
Not answering calls I think is highly dependent on the current job. Obviously a lot of working class jobs where they treat you like crap and won't let you take a piss without prior approval, but also people like teachers aren't just sitting around at a desk available to take calls. I'll always arrange a phone screen by email beforehand to make sure they're available.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:39 PM
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We're eliding the difference between resume and CV. Resume is the 1-2 page summary, CV is with all the presentations, patents, papers, etc. and is much longer.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:40 PM
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Why isn't the "Skills" section at the top?


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:41 PM
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I typically put technical expertise at the top of my résumé, just under objective, because it is the part I can make seem the most impressive.

I got a stupid, pointless award at this conference I am at. It is definitely going on my CV.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:41 PM
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An abstract for which I did the analysis got an award for a thousand Euros. I don't think I get any of it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:42 PM
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Do not claim to be able to speak languages that you haven't studied in five years and can no longer say "How are you?" in.

Unless it's Klingon. You might get a pass there.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:43 PM
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"Most creative synonyms for common statistical terms." Fifth International Symposium on Hyperplanes, May 2013.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:44 PM
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136: mine came, hilariously, with a crisp hundred dollar bill.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:44 PM
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138: more like the "has a big lab and got lucky with poster placement" award, in point of fact.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:46 PM
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Fifth International Symposium on Thingies that Divide Space into Two Parts, like a Plane but Maybe in More Dimensions if You Can Visualize That


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:46 PM
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The small-lab posters get stuck at the bottom, along with the generic shredded wheat.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:48 PM
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Like a box?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:49 PM
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(143 to 141.)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:49 PM
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Is 118.4 a repeated problem, or just one person who really stuck in your memory?

Probably a couple of dozen at this point. English, Arabic, Hindi (I think; I can't reliably recognize Hindi), James Brown.... I don't care what your religion or your taste in music is, but I really really hate waiting 60 full seconds to be able to leave you a message.

How can you tell if somebody is screening you?

Educated guess after you call them three separate times and three different times of day and each time you go to voicemail after 1.5-2 rings. One ring just means their phone is off, but 1.5-2 means they're sitting there looking at your number and deciding not to talk to you and hitting "Reject".

Seems harsh. I always assume that people nowadays are indisposed to take a call, and that they'll call me back during my office hours.

As I said, I am fine with someone not answering once. Repeatedly is an issue.

Tech sections?

I should have made that more clear. All I meant was, if you're going to include your e-mail address, don't list it as "parsimon.www.com" If you're going to mention a website that you are proud to have built, do not list it as "myhighschooldrillteam@googlesites.com."

Let's not even get into listing computer programming languages in the "spoken" language section of your resume, which honestly doesn't bother me one way or the other but I'm not hiring for those positions.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:50 PM
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Educated guess after you call them three separate times and three different times of day and each time you go to voicemail after 1.5-2 rings. One ring just means their phone is off, but 1.5-2 means they're sitting there looking at your number and deciding not to talk to you and hitting "Reject".

I'll tell my friend. He didn't know it was that obvious. Probably.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:52 PM
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To be clear, Witt, you would hire anyone who listed they languages they speak as "English, Arabic, Hindi, James Brown", right? I guess they'd have to know how to say "How are you?" in James Brown.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:52 PM
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"Do not claim to be able to speak languages that are computed languages. I was amused/perturbed by this on some grad school applications. "Languages: English, French, C++, Java, Mathematica, Python""

The opposite was advice that was given to me and which I stupidly followed.


Posted by: lemmycaution | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:52 PM
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Somebody should re-write James Brown songs in Dan Brown prose.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:54 PM
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The number of rings you hear doesn't necessarily correlate with the amount their phone rings on cell phones. Well, or on landlines. Sometimes the phone will ring for you while the network connection is getting negotiated.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:57 PM
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Not answering calls I think is highly dependent on the current job.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 1:58 PM
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Whoops, 151 was supposed to have a longer answer that boiled down to: Yes, absolutely, and that's why I call around 7pm once and usually once on a Saturday at a reasonable time (11-3ish).

I don't schedule phone screens in advance for low-level positions; part of the interview is to see how they handle themselves on the phone when they DON'T know who's calling.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:01 PM
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Huh. What about someone who has good personal reasons not to take calls from unfamiliar numbers -- if someone screened you, but called you back reasonably promptly from voicemail, would that necessarily be disqualifying?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:04 PM
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ungrammatical, repetitive and repetitive

That does sound like James Brown, actually.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:07 PM
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part of the interview is to see how they handle themselves on the phone when they DON'T know who's calling.

Both as an applicant and as an interviewer, I schedule phone interviews.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:13 PM
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I never answer the phone if I don't know who it is. That criterion baffles me.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:16 PM
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It seems likely that Witt is interviewing people for jobs that heavily involve talking to people on the phone when they don't know who is calling, so that makes sense.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:17 PM
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156: I'm with you. Never ever. Witt, do you leave voicemails?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:18 PM
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Nobody ever calls me. I use maybe 15 minutes a month on my cell phone. My office phone doesn't even get that much use.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:20 PM
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Huh. What about someone who has good personal reasons not to take calls from unfamiliar numbers -- if someone screened you, but called you back reasonably promptly from voicemail, would that necessarily be disqualifying?

Definitely not. That's why I said above that I typically try three times. If by the time I call you for the third time, you still haven't called me back, then you're off the list.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:22 PM
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Me three. Any unknown number goes to VM.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:23 PM
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160: Oh, I got you. You're not screening people because they don't pick up, but because you can't reach them by phone at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:26 PM
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Lately three people have wanted to talk to me on the phone, all from California. I started to wonder if it was something about California. In one instance, I think I faked illness or something to get out of it.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:27 PM
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Yeah, if you leave a voice mail, I'd call you back, but if it was just unknown number calling 3 different times with no further info I'm thinking telemarketer or fundraising.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:27 PM
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Witt, are you leaving voicemails? Because multiple calls from the same random number are no more likely to be answered than the first one, if you're not leaving a message. (And "part of the interview is to see how they handle themselves on the phone when they DON'T know who's calling" makes me think maybe you're not leaving a message.)


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:28 PM
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I mean, channeling Elaine Stritch here for a mo, does anybody still...talk...on the phone?!


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:29 PM
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95% of the calls I receive from unknown numbers are debt collectors looking for people I've never heard of, and they're a giant pain to talk to.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:30 PM
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Witt, do you leave voicemails?

Always.

People who work for me have to be able to 1) answer the phone, 2) take a message, 3) politely say "I can't talk right now, let me get your name and number and call you back," and 4) listen to a voice message and be able to discern the relevant details.

They don't have to be perfect at all four right off the bat, and I've interviewed people who were truly terrible on the phone, but if they don't understand WHY it matters then they're not a fit for the job. No amount of role-playing is going to help someone learn phone skills if they're unwilling to learn them.

Of course, there are factors that are completely out of their control. Not long ago we discovered that getting calls back from certain Congressional offices is much more effective when the person leaving the message is a male with an Anglo name. Infuriating, but there you have it.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:32 PM
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Witt, do you leave voicemails?

Always.

People who work for me have to be able to 1) answer the phone, 2) take a message, 3) politely say "I can't talk right now, let me get your name and number and call you back," and 4) listen to a voice message and be able to discern the relevant details.

They don't have to be perfect at all four right off the bat, and I've interviewed people who were truly terrible on the phone, but if they don't understand WHY it matters then they're not a fit for the job. No amount of role-playing is going to help someone learn phone skills if they're unwilling to learn them.

Of course, there are factors that are completely out of their control. Not long ago we discovered that getting calls back from certain Congressional offices is much more effective when the person leaving the message is a male with an Anglo name. Infuriating, but there you have it.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:32 PM
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Oh, if you always leave voicemails then a three-strikes-and-you're-out policy seems more than fair. Generous, even.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:34 PM
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167- We got our first one of these last week, they were looking for the people we had bought our apartment from (8.5 years ago!) but they didn't state who they were. Is the law only that they have to say they're debt collectors if you're they one they're after, and they can misrepresent themselves to other people in the course of seeking a target?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:34 PM
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Well, it's not unreasonable to not hire someone if they apply for a job, you call them back and leave a message, and they don't return the call.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:36 PM
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No that does indeed seem reasonable.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:38 PM
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Anyhow, we should cut Witt some slack. It's not easy being in charge of hiring at the Philadelphia Hooters.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:40 PM
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That all does seem a lot more reasonable and job-related than most interview processes I've been involved with, frankly.


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:46 PM
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I once had a guy I was trying to interview flake on me after the first exchange of emails. Dropped him right quick.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:51 PM
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People who leave voice-mails drive me nuts. Make me spend two minutes futzing with menus on a god-awful phone system rather than two seconds reading a note through email or text. Grrr.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 2:57 PM
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You don't read it, you scan it for keywords.

People who leave voice-mails drive me nuts. ... rather than two seconds reading a note through email or text. Grrr.

Have you considered the possibility that you are not a patient person?


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 3:02 PM
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Spike is completely right, of course.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 3:20 PM
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Of course. e-mail is much more convenient than the phone unless you're dealing with somebody that you know reasonably well (and often e-mail is still more convenient).


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 3:28 PM
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Philadelphia is all pretentious brew-pubs now. Witt is hiring hops inspectors.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 3:30 PM
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When I was there, it seemed to have many hobos.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 3:57 PM
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It's because of the large job losses in the busty-waitress-restaurant industry. Belgians and IPAs destroy lives and communities, Moby.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 4:00 PM
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||

I hate ABA Standard 304c. HATE.

|>


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 4:17 PM
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You're in law school too?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 4:37 PM
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What difference does it make? They don't even teach you how to file ex partes in most of those fancy law schools; you spend all your time figuring out what the substantive law is, reading cases, as though that matters at all -- right Moby?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 4:52 PM
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187

I'm not a lawyer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 4:57 PM
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188

I don't believe it. What's your profession?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 4:57 PM
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189

I'm a data analyst.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:01 PM
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190

inconceivable.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:04 PM
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191

I'm a data analyst scientist.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:04 PM
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and this so-called data even asks to be analyzed?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:13 PM
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184: Don't you know that I didn't finish, because my mother went off the deep end extra hard, and my Dad flaked in a terrible way. I want to finish and do an MPH.

ABA standard 304c says that if a school wants to remain accredited it should not ---except under extremely rare circumstances-- let someone graduate more than 84 months after they start. I'm trying to figure out if I can get an ADA exception, because I'd like to finish and get a joint MPH.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:17 PM
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181.1: Hoo baby, you are more right than you know.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewerytown,_Philadelphia

(Scroll down to the gentrification article)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:18 PM
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There's an exception under 304csub1 for joint MPHs but they have to be declared early, like all the way at the hilt.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:28 PM
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NMM to Dr. Joyce Brothers.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:38 PM
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Brothers: "No More!" to Dr. Joyce, masturbating.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:44 PM
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in my trouser, open browser, bookmarked there's ten golden hairs.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 5:52 PM
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My phone is almost always on but on one of the silent settings. I rarely hear it unless it's on a table. So what looks like screening could be me walking or driving or being in another room. I'm pretty sure I never picked up a single call as it rang for the places that interviewed me, but I did call back within a few minutes - unless they sent an email at the same time and said that I could just reply to that.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:04 PM
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193: Sorry, I didn't know. I knew your parents had health problems, but I didn't know about the law school.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:05 PM
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I have to answer the phone at work sometimes and I'm terrible at it.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:06 PM
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BG, I hope you can get things worked out.

I read ABA as Architectural Barriers Act and thought, but that isn't how the standards are cited.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:06 PM
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200: Bonus: my sister just went off the deep end yesterday. I'd like to win a McArthur Genius Award myself. All she had to do was have a psychotic break.

Yeah, I sometimes think I ought to try to write some sort of memoir or something.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:15 PM
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That's a lot to deal with. My sympathies.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:37 PM
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176: not sure "lacks dandruff problem" could be construed a bona fide job qualification for data managers, Mobes.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 6:57 PM
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|| Have opinions already been sought from our IP lawyers on today's Monsanto case? From people who eat food? |>


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:37 PM
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|| For those who don't read these things, the question is whether the farmer was 'making' unauthorized duplicate items when he planted patented genetically modified seeds. Or whether the plants to that themselves. Court rejected this "blame the bean" theory. |>


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 7:50 PM
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206 207

I would say the big mystery here is why SCOTUS took the case in the first place only to unanimously affirm the lower court. This doesn't seem like a close case to me.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 8:23 PM
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That's what I was thinking the whole time I read the tow truck case from today.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:00 PM
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But with the patent case, I can see why they'd have thought clarity would serve a genuine purpose. (You didn't really buy that thing Roberts said about balls and strikes, did you?)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 05-13-13 10:02 PM
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I just realized that I've begun to read all of Witt's comments in Andy Rooney's voice.


Posted by: vw | Link to this comment | 05-14-13 1:35 AM
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Our doorbell rings every time our power goes out and then comes back on, which happens more frequently than you might think (unless you're familiar with PG&E, in which case you probably have a good sense of how often this happens). Oddly, the doorbell doesn't work at all otherwise. This is somewhat annoying.

Feel free to read that in Andy Rooney's voice.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 05-14-13 2:12 AM
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so sorry BG. thats a lot of horrible getting piled on your plate.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 05-14-13 3:07 AM
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Who answers the doorbell anymore? I wait for them to email or text me.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05-14-13 4:12 AM
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209 210

I have been reading transcripts of the oral arguments for some of the Supreme Court cases. Most of the Justices seem to ask reasonably sensible questions. Thomas of course never says anything. But Breyer often asks long and rambling questions which aren't clearly relevant. Has he always done this or is he losing it or what?


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05-14-13 4:50 AM
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Kind of topically, I have to do my self-appraisal today. Unfortunately, not a euphemism. When they ask me to "Describe any barriers or challenges that impacted you in effectively completely your job responsibilities and accomplishing your goals," am I allowed to mention the grammar of the person who writes the forms?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-14-13 6:18 AM
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215: I think his questioning style has been consistent as long as he's been on the Court. From personal observation, it certainly hasn't changed in the last 10 years or so. Some people attribute it to his academic background -- though certainly other Justices have an academic background and don't have a similar questioning style. Others attribute it to the fact that he was the most junior Justice for a very long time.[*]

I don't think either explanation is sufficient -- I think it's mostly just personal style. It certainly doesn't indicate any lack of acuity or focus in his reasoning. Agree with him or not, Justice Breyer is extremely intelligent.

[*] The most junior Justice speaks last at Conference when votes are counted, so has a heightened incentive to share his or her views with colleagues at oral argument.


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 05-14-13 10:55 AM
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On Monsanto, that opinion read to me like a case that looked like it presented an interesting question at cert stage and then looked much less interesting after full briefing when the Court fully understood the facts. I'd guess that the deliberate steps that the farmer apparently took to select out and reproduce the Roundup-Ready plants had a particular effect on the Court's view of the case. But I didn't read the briefs and it's not really my practice area, so just speculating here.


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 05-14-13 11:00 AM
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"am I allowed to mention the grammar of the person who writes the forms?"

Not if you want to keep the job.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 05-15-13 7:43 AM
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When they ask me to "Describe any barriers or challenges that impacted you in effectively completely your job responsibilities and accomplishing your goals," am I allowed to mention the grammar of the person who writes the forms?

I'm having some medical stuff done at a practice which puts "All patients will be charged $50 if they do not cancel their appointment more than 24 hours in advance," on all of their forms.

But...but I wish to keep my appointment!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05-15-13 7:49 AM
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I've been successfully evaluated. Now I have to evaluate others, which I don't like even though I'll only have nice things to say. Maybe I'll mention the grammar of the form on that one.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05-15-13 7:52 AM
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