Re: Ask the Mineshaft: is Davis better than D.C.?

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Go to Davis or Sacramento. I've never been to either, but it can't possibly be worse than D.C. in August.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:28 AM
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I mean, it isn't like the OP has the option to go somewhere nice like Omaha.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:36 AM
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I feel like I can contribute! The other person who can speak to this is PGD, who has done this move in reverse.

My take? Jesus fuck, do not move to Davis and commute. Davis is tiny insular Pleasantville, most worth it for the excellent schools for the kids you don't have yet. You have the chance to live in a cool neighborhood with a six minute bike commute and have the rest of your time being hanging out on the porch and drinking.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:37 AM
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This is the Megan signal, no? Move to Sacramento, and ask Megan where the entertaining people hang out.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:38 AM
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The Megan pwnal.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:41 AM
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Hey, I'm the fellow who asked the question. (And should be working right now, but will check in from time to time, with thanks). Where are these cool neighborhoods in Sacramento? Hanging out on the porch and drinking seems like a reasonable plan.


Posted by: Craig | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:42 AM
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ask Megan where the entertaining people hang out.
On her porch, apparently.


Posted by: Eggp | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:43 AM
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the nominally hip neighborhood everyone extols looks pretty limited

Hey, I live there! Dunno how it looks to people from other bigger cities. As a place to live, Sacramento is definitely a solid second tier city. There's some great stuff here, but if you want the buzz of a first tier city, you won't get it. That said, I know plenty of bright people who find enough in Sacramento to be entirely fulfilled.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:45 AM
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Davis is tiny insular Pleasantville

And I hear there's some cantankerous old hobo/professor limping around that town shaking his cane at people.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:46 AM
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Basically, the numbers and letters. A-Broadway (which would be Z) and 1-29th. There a micro-neighborhoods within that.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:46 AM
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Did somebody's lant get cut off?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:47 AM
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Thanks! I may be undervaluing that grid (admittedly, I wandered around during the day, when folks were mostly elsewhere), but it seemed, well, sorta bleak -- some strings of good used bookstores and the like, but gappy without many people out. And then I went to Davis, on the way back to SF, and it was full of happy people biking around and downtown seemed buzzy. But maybe my (admittedly totally preemptory) assessment is off?


Posted by: Craig | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:51 AM
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Dating: well, it took me ten years to find some one in Sac and for a long time, I thought the city itself was why. Simply not a high enough concentration of people with mental whateverness. That said, I think two things. It always seemed to me that there were lots of real cool policy-oriented women and not as many men. Second, I do know men who seem to have no problem dating a series of bright attractive women here.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:52 AM
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I prefer Sacramento to Davis about a thousand times. Davis is good for families and undergrads. Sacramento has surrounding ethnic neighborhoods that you won't get in Davis.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:54 AM
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I'm curious about what climate change stuff you'd be involved in. I know people in those circles.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:55 AM
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full of happy people biking around

Meet

good for families and undergrads

I don't know Sacramento or Davis, but college kids are great for giving an area a sense of crowded energy, but they're probably not a really useful source of a social life. Davis might look duller if you mentally subtracted everyone under 25 from the street scene.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:56 AM
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Davis is certainly full of people biking.

I think that gap-y feeling is pretty common with state capitals, which have lots of people in for business for a day or two, so have to be bigger than their population would allow.

Lots of academics do the East Bay to Davis part-of-the-week train commute, and presumably the same thing could be done with Sacramento if you had a job that was compatible with it (say allowed telecommuting 2 days a week).


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:59 AM
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I have a horrible suggestion that I wouldn't recommend at all. But, I do know people who live in Oakland and commute by special van or bus to Sacramento, because their policy jobs are so good. I think that is deeply fucked up and a way to live very poorly, especially when it is so very nice to live in a cool block and have a six minute commute. But if you NEEEEEEED a world class city, I do know people who do that.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:01 AM
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Yeah, everything in me revolts even at the commute from Davis (I hate hate hate commuting), so schlepping up from Oakland would probably totally break my spirit. Unless, I suppose, if Sacramento were so bereft of people with mental whateverness as to break my spirit otherwise, which is my fear. But maybe not? I tell myself that surely the community is bubbling along right under the surface... and it's really good to hear that you've found it so, Megan.

As to what sort of climate stuff: I should probably be a little cagey until this sorts out for sure, but it's basically doing a lot of law around cap-and-trade implementation and federal/state carbon policy.


Posted by: Craig | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:04 AM
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9: On the other other hand, it is hard to beat cantankerous academic hobos.


Posted by: Craig | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:05 AM
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The large number of commenters here who have lived in either Sacramento or Davis should tell you *something* about the place. Whether that's a good something, I'll leave up to you.

Since I'm missing the place, I'll posit that being in California is worlds better than being in DC, even if you're in a second-tier city. (Caveat: I haven't spent much time in DC, and what time I have was spent being horrified by the summer weather and playing tourist.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:05 AM
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Christ, never having been to Sacramento, I read things like this and assume the population must be like 500,000. But the Sacramento MSA has 2,461,780 people in it (as of 2010). It's statistically impossible that there aren't a significant number whatever sort of people you want to be around.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:06 AM
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so schlepping up from Oakland would probably totally break my spirit.

Plus, it would emit greenhouse gases.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:09 AM
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But if you NEEEEEEED a world class city, I do know people who do that

Oakland is a world class city? (We always liked to call it "Oakland: A City by a Bay".)


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:09 AM
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Within a couple of hours of Sacramento you have everything you could want. The Sierras, the Sonoma coast, two of the best wine regions in the country, great breweries, fucking redwoods, San Francisco, several of the best restaurants in the country, etc. DC just can't compete on that front.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:10 AM
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I've never lived in Sacramento so I guess I have nothing useful to say, but I've always liked it. For one thing, it's pretty cheap, for another it's always seemed to me that a smaller city with people with interesting work is a nice combo, for a third thing it also has the best feature of the Bay Area, which is awesome awesome day trips close by, without having to pay to live in the BA.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:10 AM
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I can point you to, or hook you up with some of that community. Play Ultimate and you'll find them. Also, there are a couple co-ops of like-minded people. Get into one of those and you'll be set. Further, the owner (and one of my closest friends) is doing a lot of climate change stuff for the State.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:11 AM
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Man, I'm on a pwnage roll this thread.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:11 AM
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11: Mine! Did you find it?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:11 AM
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20: On the other other hand, it is hard to beat cantankerous academic hobos.

Nah, this one limps; easy to catch.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:11 AM
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But the Sacramento MSA has 2,461,780 people in it (as of 2010). It's statistically impossible that there aren't a significant number whatever sort of people you want to be around.

This. Population growth means that a lot of our "small" cities actually have a lot of people. The SLC metro area is well over a million now.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:18 AM
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I've never been to either, but it can't possibly be worse than D.C. in August.

Maybe not worse, but Davis in summer is really unpleasantly hot. Presumably the same thing is true of Sacramento.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:18 AM
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Of course, you need to read Joan Didion to understand the real* Sacramento.

*Of half-a-century ago.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:19 AM
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Very hot until 7:30pm, when the Delta breeze kicks in. Nice balmy nights.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:20 AM
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It used to be the Northwest breeze before the merger.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:24 AM
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32: Humidity is the key difference, to me.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:25 AM
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Heh. The real Sacramento is still under there. The underlying city remembers its roots as a Valley meth town descended from Oakies and Arkies.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:25 AM
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30: Yeah, but after you catch him, I imagine he would be ready to deliver a good whacking.

22: I suppose that's true, statistically. I guess I worry that the culture of the place will make it hard to find those folks, but, per

27: it would definitely help to know people who are already there. Megan, if this comes together, I would love to take you up on that offer.


Posted by: Craig | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:27 AM
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Humidity is the key difference, to me.

Word. Most of the US gets pretty hot in the summer. I've done some summer visits to siblings in Atlanta and Houston. Fuck that noise.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:30 AM
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I wonder if anybody is doing anything to make sure the miserable heat doesn't get any worse.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:40 AM
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Most of the US gets pretty hot in the summer.

Have I mentioned how lovely the Pacific Northwest is six months out of the year (May-Oct).


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:40 AM
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Nope, we are cranking up the heat fast as we can. Dude! I got my first tomatoes on June 2nd this year. That's about a month early.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:44 AM
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Tangentially: Is there anything worse than waiting for a call back from a recruiter after they've pitched you to a potential employer?
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Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:44 AM
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Army ants inundating your plantation?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:45 AM
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Having your feet chewed off by rodents?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:45 AM
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D'oh.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:45 AM
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Being drafted into the French army ten weeks before the battle of Verdun?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:46 AM
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I believe the canonical answer would be "The Holocaust." Slackers.

But seriously, gahhh.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:48 AM
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We had to switch the canonical answer or Slate would be forced to write an article titled, "The Holocaust Wasn't All Bad."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:51 AM
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"I had my feet chewed off by rodents -- and loved it!" #slatepitch


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:52 AM
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"I live in D.C. and I love it!" #slatepitch


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:01 AM
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"Waiting in suspense to find out if I'm getting a job is fun!" #slatepitch


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:05 AM
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"Everybody should try meth at least once."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:10 AM
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#unfiltered


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:16 AM
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Unfiltered meth is the best.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:18 AM
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Within a couple of hours of Sacramento you have everything you could want. The Sierras, the Sonoma coast, two of the best wine regions in the country, great breweries, fucking redwoods, San Francisco, several of the best restaurants in the country, etc. DC just can't compete on that front.

Are you crazy? DC can totally compete on that front.

Sierras: There is also good hiking around DC.
Wine regions, breweries: Wine and beer are distributed nationally. (Presumably you meant that one could actually visit the wineries or breweries. That strikes me as a relatively niche interest if it's meant to give sustained pleasure; the east coast has comparable things to answer it).
Fucking redwoods: Fall foliage.
San Francisco: New York. Baltimore. Philadelphia.
Best restaurants: See above. Plus there are some decent restaurants in DC itself, you know.

Also, "within a couple of hours" is not a good metric on which to evaluate the conveniences of a city. It takes me about a mere hour to get (via metro and BART) from my home to Berkeley, and that by itself is highly dissuasive. If I lived in Sacramento I could participate in the much livelier music scene in Oakland, but I sure as hell wouldn't do so very often.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:39 AM
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I try not to sell Sacramento by all the cool things you could do if you leave Sacramento for the day. I think the lifestyle (bikes, porches, trees, ease, good food) has to be what you want.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:47 AM
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Fucking redwoods: Fall foliage

This is preposterous. The foliage is not DTF.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:53 AM
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56 -- sorry, but no. The great feature of the bay area is the awesome proximate weekend trips. Obviously they are "weekend trips" because they are not things you do every day, but are weekend-available options. Within a few hours, you have incredible skiing, incredible hiking in national parks, great beaches, nice urban features, etc. There's just a huge amount of stuff available. While some version of that is available anywhere the country the total awesomeness factor of the weekend trip in the bay area is hard to beat.

Now, weekend trips are not the only thing in the world, and let's face it, your daily life in the bay area will most likely be spent sitting around in an overpriced not that exciting place that thinks it's God's gift to creation with smug self-satisfied assholes who probably are hideously ugly and boring and work in the computer industry, or possibly with way over-earnest child-adults who go to burning man or some such nonsense, or even more likely the dread combination of the two, so the bay area IMO sucks it like a cheap whore. But in the specific category "weekend trips" it's the best, and the nice thing about Sacramento is you get the awesome weekend trips while not having to pay to live in the bay area.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:55 AM
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57: Yeah, that was actually what I found so off-putting about my short sojourn in Sacramento. Everyone -- everyone! -- I asked about living there began by saying that it was close to other places I might like which is, you know, different than itself being a good place to be. It got unnerving. The hope is to be somewhere that's nice on its own. Good stuff nearby is a perk.


Posted by: Craig | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:00 PM
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smug self-satisfied assholes who probably are hideously ugly and boring and work in the computer industry, or possibly with way over-earnest child-adults who go to burning man or some such nonsense

"[O]r"?

or even more likely the dread combination of the two

Phew.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:01 PM
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The great feature of the bay area is the awesome proximate weekend trips.

My experience of being Craig's facebook friend is that there's a ton of awesome weekend trips available to someone who lives in DC, too.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:02 PM
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For a weekend trip, I'd take Chincoteague over the Sonoma Coast any time. And I like the Sonoma Coast. But the Sierras over the AT.

What you can do within an hour or two doesn't seem that important to our querent, who's content to live careless in DC.


Posted by: CCarp | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:03 PM
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Also, the idea that awesome weekend trips are everything you could want in a place to live is self-evidently crazy. (I don't think I've ever availed myself of a weekend trip while living in the SFBA, in fact.) I'd much rather have a lively music scene.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:03 PM
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63 before seeing 60, obvsly.


Posted by: CCarp | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:05 PM
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But the Sierras over the AT.

I BEG TO DIFFER.


Posted by: OPINIONATED MARK SANFORD | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:05 PM
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31: How is the metro area defined? Not this far north, I think.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:09 PM
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My usual statement about Sac is that it is a solid B+ town with a low standard deviation. Pretty much everything is reliably pleasant, and you don't get a lot of spectacular peaks. It isn't like the Bay Area, where you might catch an incredible band playing on the streets, crest a hill and catch the sun setting on the Bay and go to an unbelievable dinner. But you also don't have days where a naked acrobat shoves you on BART, the parking lot at Trader Joes leaves you in tears and it is so cold and grey out and everyone is sullen.

With the right groups of friends, reliably very pleasant is great. (And the food here is very good and getting better.)


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:13 PM
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Presumably you meant that one could actually visit the wineries or breweries. That strikes me as a relatively niche interest if it's meant to give sustained pleasure.

Maybe it's a niche, but this may actually be my favorite part of living in Sonoma County.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:14 PM
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and you don't get a lot of spectacular peaks.

A surgeon can make so much more money in L.A.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:14 PM
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It depends if you are referring to the Salt Lake City - West Valley City Metropolitan Statistical Area or the Salt Lake City-Ogden-Clearfield Combined Statistical Area (which includes the Ogden-Clearfield MSA plus two Micropolitan Statistical Areas (╬╝SAs)).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:15 PM
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By making spectacular peaks.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:15 PM
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73

Here, let me explain your own joke back to you.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:16 PM
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a naked acrobat shoves you on BART
Just so I'm clear, this is a negative, right?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:16 PM
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Came for the peaks, stayed for the valleys.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:16 PM
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Everyone -- everyone! -- I asked about living there began by saying that it was close to other places I might like

Sacramento has a longstanding inferiority complex. When my boyfriend and I went to the archives to get detail on the original library building so I could copy it for my beehive (Valentine's Day date!), we found the the proponents in 1870 saying that a library would make us cool like SF.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:19 PM
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31: How is the metro area defined? Not this far north, I think.

It's technically Salt Lake, Toele, and Summit Counties. But Salt Lake County is over a million people by itself. Toele and Park City aren't contributing much to the population numbers.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:20 PM
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73: Standpipe!


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:22 PM
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Really the person you are waiting to hear from is PGD, who has recently lived in both places, much in your situation.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:23 PM
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77: I'm still not used to the distances out West, because that's a *giant* metro area.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:24 PM
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the parking lot at Trader Joes leaves you in tears

Untrue. The parking at the TJ's on Folsom has definitely created near-tear situations. (But Sacramento is still a really great place!)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:28 PM
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80: Yeah, I don't know why the hell those other counties are in there. SL county is a perfectly understandable entity as a metro. It's fairly continuously populated and the county lines coincide with pretty obvious physical features.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:28 PM
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People tend to undervalue a short commute. With the time saved by having only a six minute bike ride to work, think how many more weekend tripsinternet comments you can make.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:29 PM
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79: Good point. PGD, enlighten me!


Posted by: Craig | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:36 PM
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Nothing like the parking lot of the Trader Joes in Emeryville, IME. But you're right, it is a relatively small lot. Super easy to do by bike, though. I didn't have a car for six-seven years; super easy to do in Sac.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:38 PM
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83: I don't say it often enough, but yeah - my current ten-minute walking commute is one of the best things about my present lifestyle.


Posted by: joyslinger | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:44 PM
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My seven minute commute is the reason I can fit in both workout and taking the dog to the river on week nights.

It also means I leave for work at 8:45am.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:47 PM
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My seven minute commute is the reason I can fit in both workout and taking the dog to the river on week nights.

It also means I leave for work at 8:45am.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:47 PM
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Not my regular commute, but it took me 45 minutes to go 1.2 miles after leaving a meeting last night. I usually love it here and don't often have "get me the fuck out of this city" moments but oh man was I fantasizing about moving (which is basically impossible) last night.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:53 PM
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Couldn't you just park your car and walk?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:54 PM
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No, I needed it for the remaining 10 or so miles of commute.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:55 PM
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I usually love it here and don't often have "get me the fuck out of this city" moments but oh man was I fantasizing about moving (which is basically impossible)

Something about the last year or two, I've been completely over my hour-long commute. There's no plausible way to change it and stay in NYC; we couldn't afford to move downtown, and any job I'd plausibly have would be the same hour away (oh, there are a couple of big firms, and probably some small ones, that'd bring it down to forty-five minutes, but nothing closer). It's not going to change, but I am sick of it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:57 PM
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45 minutes to go 1.2 miles

It really does feel like it's gotten noticeably worse in that regard since I moved out in the mid 90's. When I'm down visiting it seems like there's almost no normal traffic times now on the freeways, just varying degrees of terrible.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 12:59 PM
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93 -- it's definitely much worse. And has totally changed the intuitive geographic sense of the city. When I was a kid it seemed totally normal to go to places (like the Valley) that now feel like they're totally inaccessible, the Westside is a completely different city than downtown or Hollywood, etc etc.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:12 PM
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The hope is to be somewhere that's nice on its own. Good stuff nearby is a perk.

Having lived in a place that's mediocre on its own (though with the most gorgeous natural setting of any city I've seen), but which is amazing for trips, I'd say it really depends on how much the weekend activities appeal to you. The idea that the pretty nature activity stuff in DC is comparable to that of Northern California is insane. Similarly though, if you like art, cultural activities and walkable cities stay in the Northeast. In both cases you can get your occasional fix of the other stuff on vacations.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:13 PM
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I don't know that I'm that big on day trips but I'm looking forward to the fact that, should I choose to take one from Oakland/Berkeley, it won't take two hours to get out of the city and two hours to get back in. (Right?) That's the thing about NYC. Maybe it will turn out I am that big on day trips. My recent experience with them is going to Storm King, which is under 60 miles away, and with one thing and another, it took like five hours to get there.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:16 PM
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cultural activities and walkable cities stay in the Northeast

The thing about walkability in the Northeast is that at least five months of the year, it's either too cold or too hot to have walking outside be anything but an ordeal. The Bay Area, on the other hand...


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:19 PM
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97 was me.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:20 PM
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reliably very pleasant is great

That is something I very much like about my town as well.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:20 PM
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92: My commute is about ten minutes shorter and I haven't been doing it as long but I'm plenty over it. I guess I'm only doing it about 120 more times. Do you ever get the conductor in the morning who has without question the most annoying voice anyone ever had?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:22 PM
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BTW, I don't usually like his stuff, but this Bertram post on CT about the vital importance of insubordination is good.
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Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:23 PM
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Even though I never owned a car in the Bay Area, between rentals and friends I still got out to Muir Woods or Sonoma wine tasting or the Sierras or the coast quite regularly. I found it very depressing in NYC how little there was you could do for a day trip out of town. I really think day trips and weekend trips to nature was a huge benefit of the Bay Area for me even though I was carless and not a huge outdoors type.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:25 PM
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100: You mean the "A-train experience" guy? I've been out of sync with him for a while now.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:26 PM
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I'm really sad about not living near wine tasting. That would be a big perk of Davis to me. (Haven't ever thought about Sacto since that's not where the university is at.)


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:27 PM
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Wine tasting doesn't appeal to me, but I believe there is also good wine tasting east of Sacramento in the foothills.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:36 PM
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97: Winter's not too bad on the Northeast Corridor as long as you have an adequate sweater or jacket, overcoat, scarf, gloves, and hat.


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:38 PM
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No, I don't think the "Downtown A exp....erience" guy works rush hour anymore and he sort of stopped doing that though he still did the annoying Disco Stu intonation. I can't begin to describe the new guy. I've actually recorded his voice but its full annoying-ness doesn't come through.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:38 PM
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102:

I found it very depressing in NYC how little there was you could do for a day trip out of town.

Are you kidding? There are like 4 boroughs you can get to by subway alone!


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:39 PM
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97 Winter is fine in the Northeast. With proper clothing as long as it's above the teens walking around is fine, and you only get a couple days a year of daytime temps below twenty in NYC. Summer does suck since with enough humidity even the eighties can be miserable.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:41 PM
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109 is right. The cold isn't like the midwest or anything.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:45 PM
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Speaking of wine, did you know that Robert Mondavi was born in Virginia, Minnesota, up on the Range? Weird but true.

I don't think I have ever had a Minnesota-made wine, but there is more of it than you might think.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:45 PM
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Are you kidding? There are like 4 boroughs you can get to by subway alone!

That's not out of town.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 1:48 PM
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When I was a kid it seemed totally normal to go to places (like the Valley) that now feel like they're totally inaccessible

Exactly, and it's sad. Growing up we were going to the various beach areas from Arcadia all the time and now it seems like it'd be an unthinkable ordeal.

Storm King, which is under 60 miles away, and with one thing and another, it took like five hours to get there.

Christ, that's what it takes to get to Grand Teton from here.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:00 PM
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||

Woohoo! One of our poor exploited volunteers just got a job offer from Thimpson Satcher. I hate to see someone sucked in by BigLaw, but on the other hand he's a nice kid who's done a good job for us, and I like to see him getting paid.

|>


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:14 PM
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107: Come to think, I got better earbuds, and I don't think I've heard an announcement for a year.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:20 PM
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he's a nice kid who's done a good job for us, and I like to see him getting paid.

Yay!

In vaguely-related news, for the next two weeks I'm doing (what're in theory 35 hr/wk) mailroom duties in addition to part-time marketing proofreading stuff, but all squeezed into 35 hrs. I just learned that I'll only be paid $12/hr for the mailroom stuff, which is what I got back in September and so isn't really a surprise, but it's a bit annoying since I'm squeezing the full duties into 4-5 hours (and the other part of the assignment pays $15). In any case--I didn't bring it up with the supervisor because I knew I'd accept whatever was offered, and I decided it was better to spare him the embarrassment and myself the humiliation. Alas, I responded to the temp company's email about the rate with something about being "surprised and disappointed", and now they want me to call them about it, and ugh I should have just kept my mouth shut. Sigh.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:28 PM
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Alas, I responded to the temp company's email about the rate with something about being "surprised and disappointed", and now they want me to call them about it,

You know, if they're not firing you out of hand, I'd take any response to an email like that as an opportunity to haggle. It might not work, but I'd go into the conversation with that attitude.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:30 PM
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I'd take any response to an email like that as an opportunity to haggle

Oh, it surely is, but I had already decided in advance that haggling about it wasn't worth the stress. I'm annoyed with myself for sending an email out of grumpiness that only has a point if it's a prelude to something I don't feel like doing, which is haggling.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:33 PM
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You'll never not be exploited that way, x.

Plus you're haggling with Wi/ey; surely you can work up some enthusiasm for that?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:41 PM
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Oh hey, JP Stormcrow, seems like you might know: is there any relatively simple way for me to go from the coordinates of a spot on the globe now to an estimate of where it was, say, 35 million years ago? (I'm amusing myself by being a crackpot.)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:43 PM
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There are multiple ways "where it was" might be interpreted.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:48 PM
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Enthusiasm isn't really my thing, nosflow. (Though I'll try to fake it when I write up a first draft of a cover letter for PLoS tonight.)


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:50 PM
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121: There is some rock at some place now. Where was it (probably), in latitude & longitude, at some past time?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:50 PM
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There is some rock in some place now. What was its emotional state at some past time?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:58 PM
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There is some rock in some place now. What was its emotional state at some past time?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 2:59 PM
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I was honestly surprised that there isn't, like, a python library that does this.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:04 PM
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I would take a comparable job in Sacramento over one in DC without even thinking about it. But I'd be assuming I'd drive places outside of town regularly. Also, my main criteria for evaluating a place to live is whether it's a pleasant enough place to indulge in inertia most of the time.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:07 PM
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Rock is eternal, dude.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:08 PM
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Also, San Francisco is weirdly isolated. I lived in other parts of the Bay Area most of the time I lived there and was surprised how hard it was to get to places not SF during the few months I lived in SF.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:16 PM
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remember info toggle strikes again


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:17 PM
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Come to think, list me some good day trips out of SF; the four of us might be going out there at the end of the summer.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:25 PM
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Point Reyes! Pinnacles! Sonoma! Half Moon Bay! are a few that leap to mind.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:30 PM
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123: wouldn't the depth at the present moment also be very important?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:31 PM
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Marin/Saucelito. Take the ferry if you get the chance; they go surprisingly fast.

I haven't been to Mt. Diablo, but it is close and has a monster view. It overlooks so much that I believe it is one of the anchor monuments for the western township and range survey.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:36 PM
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Anything on the west side of the Peninsula between SF and Santa Cruz will be lovely.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:38 PM
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132: Muir Woods! Here I was born, and here I died! It was only a moment for you! You took no notice!


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:40 PM
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I was sort of hoping to be lazier than that about figuring out plans. I know there are pretty places around SF, but if anyone had a "go exactly here and do exactly this" for a pleasant day off the top of their heads, I'd listen with interest.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:40 PM
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Beach? Trees? Farms? Mountains?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:45 PM
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If you want to go to Marin or Sausalito, you can bike across the Golden Gate Bridge!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:47 PM
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Any of the above. Sally whines about not getting enough exposure to salt water, and I was thinking about taking her to a two-day surfing class in Pacifica, and finding something else to do with Newt in the area while she did that (possibly just going to a beach to swim. Newt was unenthusiastic about the prospect of surfing.)

We haven't done much hiking, but they can both walk forever, and like forests. Mountains, again, not much exposure, but they can walk uphill as well as on the flat.

Farms? What's a tourist thing to do on a farm?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:49 PM
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Well, I like to stroll around a look at the irrigation systems.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:51 PM
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(But in Napa and Marin, farms are all scenic and shit.)


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:52 PM
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Drive south out of the city on 1. The scenery is almost immediately stunning. Keep an eye out for the world's most beautiful Taco Bell in Pacifica. Stop at the Fitzgerald Marine Reserve north of Half Moon Bay (best if you can time it for a low tide so you can see tidal pools) but keep a legal distance from the seals. Continue further and stop at whatever beach suits your fancy. For a short trip just turn around and drive back on 1. If you have more time, stop at the beach by Pescadero, then see the goat farm in Pescadero (especially if it's baby goat season) and try the peppercorn goat cheese, then go up over the hill for a great drive through the forest and come back into the city on 280. Alternately, you can do this trip in reverse, so you can be at the pacific at sunset.

Drive north out of the city over the golden gate bridge (stop and walk on the bridge if you have time). Go to Muir Woods for some redwood hiking. If you have time and want a relatively serious hike, go up over the hill to Stinson Beach. Otherwise you can putter around in the Redwoods for a little while, and then drive to Stinson Beach. (If you happen to be there when the Tourists Club is open to visitors, that's a fun little hike ending with a beer in the woods, but yelp ruined it so they're rarely open for visitors anymore.)

Go wine tasting in Sonoma. Drive down westside road along the Russian River (lots of wineries, single slow low-traffic road for safety). It ends in Healdsburg, which is full of wine tasting rooms, so you can park your car and keep tasting. One person drives to Healdsburg, and the other person drives back, so you each have a half where you can get drunk overlapping in Healdsburg. Depending on timing you can try to add a side trip to the Sonoma coast (though going the whole way on 1 is unreasonable).


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:53 PM
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Wine tasting is probably dull for the kids, but your first two paragraphs are exactly what I wanted.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:55 PM
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140.1: Get her a Neti pot.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:56 PM
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Oooooo ooooo oooo!

Go to the Marine Mammal Center in the Marin Headlands. Call ahead to be there for a well animal release. That'll get you some nice hills and beaches.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:57 PM
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Heh. That's actually a bit of parental conflict. She's inherited my bad sinuses, and I keep on telling her to use the neti pot I got her, and she keeps telling me that she'd rather have her toenails pulled out with pliers.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:57 PM
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146: Oh, that sounds awesome.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:58 PM
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I know nothing about surfing, but the short version of the first paragraph probably should combine well with some surfing.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:58 PM
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Which can be combined with Unfoggedatrian's paragraph 2.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:58 PM
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146: Oh we never went there, meant to but it didn't work out. One of RWM's colleagues used to work there.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:59 PM
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It's maybe too long for a day trip (3h or so from the city), but I think Point Lobos at the southern tip of Monterey Bay is absolutely beautiful. If you had two days, you could drive down Highway 1 and hike for a day, then do Monterey Bay Aquarium the next day and drive back. There are quite a few beaches along that stretch, too, if you wanted to picnic.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 3:59 PM
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Also, I hate to say this, but Sally is aware that surfing in northern CA is really cold, right?


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:02 PM
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Drive north out of the city on 1. Stop and get an ice chest, an oyster knife, and some lemons, and go to Tomales Bay, where you can sit on the shore and eat oysters until you can't anymore. Walk around in the woods, or drive slowly back down, to Sausalito, where you can rent a kayak and make the kids paddle you to Tiburon.

Also, U(9) is correct re. Muir Woods/Tourists Club. But it's mostly too cold to go swimming.



Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:02 PM
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If you come up to Sonoma County, I'll take you wine tasting and arrange for a sitter for the kids.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:02 PM
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153: The girl is a seal. Her whole goddamn rugby team makes fun of her and me because she's playing in shorts and a t-shirt in the snow. It is possible that there are levels of cold that other humans tolerate recreationally that she'd find offputting, but I haven't seen any evidence of that yet. (I assume people wear wetsuits and they're rentable, of course.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:05 PM
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Stop and get an ice chest, an oyster knife, and some lemons, and go to Tomales Bay, where you can sit on the shore and eat oysters until you can't anymore.

Wait, like, pulling oysters out of the water? Can you do that? I've gone clamming, but I've never eaten a non-professionally harvested oyster.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:09 PM
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She'll be given a wetsuit and that is totally what she should do for two days. Let's hope she's not actually a seal because there are large sharks.

Then, you should do some variant or combination of the trips listed in 143.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:10 PM
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155: I might take you up on that.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:12 PM
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Sonoma was not at all what I expected, but it was well worth it and more beautiful that I'd imagined. Glad Sally doesn't mind cold. I was in high school before I experienced ocean I could put more than a foot in.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:17 PM
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I fourteenth the suggestion of Muir Woods with a note that when I went it was really crowded, in a way that distracted from the otherwise really cool walking-around-in-surreal-and-misty-forest thing. If I went again, I'd try to figure out what day of the week/time of day is the least crowded.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:21 PM
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I don't recall what I expected to see in Sonoma, but what I remember is a western vibe and the best set-up for a "To Build A Fire" joke I've ever had.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:28 PM
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the best set-up for a ... joke I've ever had.

Why do I suspect that this is how you remember a lot of places?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:29 PM
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And of course you can bike from SF to Muir Woods. 18 miles and a fair bit of climbing, though.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:30 PM
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If the rest of the family isn't used to biking up hills, I'm not sure I'd actually recommend that ride, but it's totally worth biking over the Golden Gate Bridge to Sausalito or even Tiburon, and then taking the ferry back.

Oh, and on the way you could stop by the Bay Model Visitor Center, "a fully accessible education center administered by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers which makes possible the viewing of a scientific tool: a working hydraulic model of the San Francisco Bay and Sacramento - San Joaquin River Delta System." How cool is that? Very!

Actually, I have no idea, but it sounds pretty cool. My mother's coming out to visit in a month--keep the suggestions coming!--and I think we'll go to that.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:34 PM
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No, I needed it for the remaining 10 or so miles of commute haven't entirely turned into Michael Douglas in Falling Down.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:36 PM
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I haven't been to Mt. Diablo, but it is close and has a monster view. It overlooks so much that I believe it is one of the anchor monuments for the western township and range survey.

Second largest panoramic view in the world, after Kilimanjaro. Unfortunately there's fuck-all to do in that part of Contra Costa County *except* look at the pretty view from Mt. Diablo.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:42 PM
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Hmmm. At the end of summer, the Breaths might be able to see both the pretty view and the tarantula migration. But I pretty much agree that the other suggestions are more likely to be interesting.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:46 PM
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The bay model is extremely neat.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:50 PM
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167 -- Hey, what about Rock City?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:53 PM
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Angel Island is not a bad place to walk around. Changing views and all.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:56 PM
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Wine tasting is probably dull for the kids

Never too early to get them started on unaffordable hobbies.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:58 PM
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Never too early to get them started on unaffordable hobbies being your DD.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 4:59 PM
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Just in SF you can take the walk up the coast from the GGB. Last time I was there they had blocked off some of the sort of paths that used to go along the more rugged areas, but what was open was still really stunning.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:01 PM
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The way to go wine tasting to take a train or bus to some centrally located town and then rent bikes. You get to tell yourself that you're doing something healthy and that you don't need to worry about your blood alcohol level cause the physical effort is magically destroying it. Plus, wine areas tend to be very pretty.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:03 PM
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You could hang out with the wonderful SF/East Bay unfogged community.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:15 PM
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And of course you can bike from SF to Muir Woods. 18 miles and a fair bit of climbing, though.

I wouldn't advise the ride up from Muir toward Mt Tam. LB has said she had challenges riding up from the Hudson to Inwood. The climb up from Muir is far worse.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:20 PM
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I can absolutely say from experience that wine tasting is boring for kids. Even if you let them try the wine they are very unlikely to be interested.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:27 PM
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Right, even getting to Muir from Sausalito is something like 800 feet of climbing, at somewhere between 5-8% grade. If you're not used to real climbing, it's not fun.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:29 PM
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177:I'm sure it's bad for much longer, but I'd be very surprised by a road much steeper than the (short) steep bit of my bike path.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:40 PM
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But getting to Sausalito from SF by bike isn't challenging! There's maybe one (1) hill going through the Presidio.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:41 PM
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But we won't be biking. I might by myself, but I'm not comfortable with the kids someplace totally unfamiliar.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:43 PM
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I recently considered rejecting a job that I mostly want because it will require a commute of eight or nine minutes rather than my current five. Also, were I single and hoping to become otherwise, I wouldn't live in Davis on a bet. Turning to Sacramento, I think it's a B- city at best.* It's much, much nicer than Davis -- unless one is concerned almost exclusively with having a short commute to the university or raising children -- but it's inferiority complex suffuses nearly everything about it. (I think this is sort of true of DC as well, but DC is totally walkable and densely forested, and boasts exceptionally gorgeous architecture, some of the finest civic spaces in this country, and world-class museums, monuments, and whatnots.) To be clear, I think Sacramento is a fine place to live, but it's not at all exciting. By contrast, DC is exciting in part because of what it is, but also because of who moves there: bright strivers, who seem like exactly the sort of people Craig might think are missing from the scene in Sacramento. I mean, sure, those people in DC can be very annoying, and they're transient in a way that can be a bit soul-deadening, but they're there. As for Sacramento, it's just proudly dull (though not nearly so dull as Davis). Finally, I have a zillion ideas for things that the Breaths might want to do if they visit. LB, feel free to send me an e-mail if you'd like to hear some of my ideas.

* I can explain my grading scale in another post, if you'd like. Transparency!


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:51 PM
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I'm wondering where I gave slightly more points. Quizzes? Homework? Participation?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:57 PM
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176 to 183.1.last.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 5:59 PM
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184: grade inflation.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 6:17 PM
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Surely there are at least one or two hott grad students in alfalfa farming that Craig could pick up in Davis.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 6:21 PM
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The Lyon's in Davis that gave rfts and our friends (I was driving) tequila shots after they ordered margaritas* seems to have closed, so I have no useful advice about Davis.

* Their blender was broken.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 6:27 PM
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Probably the real hotties are in the lettuce department, though.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 6:27 PM
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I can vouch that the undergrad men in my irrigation classes were a disproportionately fine looking lot.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 6:30 PM
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I can vouch that the undergrad men in my irrigation classes were a disproportionately fine looking lot.

Did they keep your lawn all wet?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 6:46 PM
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178: My kids are great about it--they snag some bread sticks or chocolate off the bar then run around playing. We've hit three wineries in a day with them and they're still relatively chill. YMMV, obvs.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 6:50 PM
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Go to Sotto Mare, sit at the counter, and get fantastic cioppino. Then bring the kids on the tour of the kink.com castle.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 7:02 PM
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Man does 183 crystallize all my concerns about leaving. Megan's notes suggest that there might be bright strivers in state government (that sentence does feel odd to write, I admit), however. It's frustrating that such globally significant decisions are being made in such a basically-pleasant-but-not-so-exciting spot.


Posted by: Craig | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 7:11 PM
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Policy making should be tumultuous and thrilling, and made by dramatic people?

I have my own complaints about the pace of bureaucrats, but I was there for a lot of the AB 32 scoping process, and can promise that policy can advance in a grindingly dull fashion. Even unpassionate people can make incremental progress. We can even look good doing it if no one else is doing anything better.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 7:23 PM
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Second Muir Woods, Mount Tam, and the Marin Headlands...also if you just want to stay on foot or bike on the SF side, the trail after you pass by Golden Gate (the Batteries to Bluff trail going on into the GG recreation area) really has equally stunning views as the headlands. Just wandering around GG Park is fun...I love SF.

The other person who can speak to this is PGD, who has done this move in reverse.

Yes, I have. If you love the wilderness and natural beauty, California is far better than the east coast, certainly far better than DC. The West Coast is the best coast; I miss California every weekend. A lot. The food is better top to bottom in CA as well, it's really a striking difference. (And BTW, even if it's not a world-class city, Sacramento has a near-world class restaurant -- Biba's).

Sacramento is a fine city. You have to stroll around midtown (as Megan said, the grid) on a nice evening before you appreciate the place. It has a certain magic, the combination of the ramshackle 19th century houses, the trees, that cool Delta breeze, and (yes) the porches. It's a little beat up, and cut up by the post-war urban demolitions, but it has real soul. Davis seems very pleasant but in a more bland and suburban way, and you'll always be an outsider there not being associated with the university.

And of course Sacramento is close to lots of fantastic places. I could always make SF in 90 minutes-two hours, although last time I was back in California the traffic jams on I-90 were just crazy; things may have gotten worse since I lived there. And the Sierras and Napa Valley (via the back way) are close as well.

Dating scene is better in DC, Sacramento is really more a married peoples' town. Very different from the coast in that respect. Well, Midtown has more single people but they are all heavily tattooed -- if you are not heavily tattooed it will take you some time to find your perfect Midtown mate. But it really depends whether you want to date a lot or just find one person. You'll find one person in Sacramento, and they will be just as good (and probably less pale and pasty and have more interests besides being a wonk). It will just take you longer.

Professionally there is obviously a huge difference. California is just a much, much smaller world than DC in terms of government and everything associated with it. But the policy communities in CA are still significantly larger and more sophisticated than maybe any other state. And my impression is that the environmental/energy area is one of the best and most dynamic ones. I think if you're confident the job will be better in CA then you shouldn't let other considerations hold you back. Unless you have a really bad feeling -- for me, wilderness and hiking are a major pleasure so that weighs in strongly, but Sacramento and the Central Valley just might not be to your taste. And I've enjoyed the exposure to the national political scene in DC, but I can also see how that can get depressing as hell in its way.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 7:23 PM
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Bright strivers are the heart of motherfucking darkness. Especially in our current political climate. On average 4.2 years away from figuring out that its best to use their powers to just fuck the world up the ass.

...perhaps I am overly harsh.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 7:30 PM
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Living in DC is spiritual poison, and women from northern California are mostly fantastic. Move.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 7:34 PM
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I agree completely with 197.1.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 7:46 PM
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Napa Valley (via the back way)

YOLO


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 7:46 PM
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Also, the impact of Davis on the dating scene (grad students, junior faculty, etc.) is not to be underestimated. Perhaps the most brilliant woman I ever dated was a biologist at UC Davis (I will not out her by linking to her super-cool research here). DC people are much more cookie cutter than California people; in DC you can meet ten people who can write a great policy paper on solar power, but in CA you're much more likely to meet someone who builds solar-powered water purifiers or is experimenting with some cool new form of greenhouse agriculture, etc.

Living in DC is spiritual poison

Spiritually speaking, DC is definitely a toxic environment.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 7:49 PM
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120: is there any relatively simple way for me to go from the coordinates of a spot on the globe now to an estimate of where it was, say, 35 million years ago?

Not that I know of. It would be an interesting project, but not that easy or even determinant for things like sea floor that are newly made. You also have to correct for "true polar wander." II'll ask my friend who writes software for geologic reconstructions through time (but just local cross-sections, backing off the faults and whatnot).

Here is a site (Paleomap Project) that has a lot of reconstructions and animations*. (Careful though the site design might cause nausea and or psychological damage to those of a sensitive disposition.)

*And the animations must use some algorithms that pretty much do what you want, but have not seen them (or similar) published anywhere.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:01 PM
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In what way is DC a toxic environment? What are the spiritual qualities of some other cities?


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:15 PM
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I miss California every weekend. A lot.

Living in DC is spiritual poison,

A thousand sympathies!

(Though I am grateful for the many fine things DC is providing me, not least of which is gainful employment.)


Posted by: torrey pine (YK) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:23 PM
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Chicago is OK. Istanbul and Merida both seem promising, also Lyons, Cherbourg, and Uzes. There's a nice guidebook, Invisible Cities.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:23 PM
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195: Good point. Actually, that's something I've always liked about CARB. Back in the mid-2000s, in the scoping process, I remember coming up and being really comforted, actually, that this vast global crisis was being resolved by a bunch of engineers and regulatory lawyers. After years of feeling like we were making *no* progress, it was somehow heartening to see the crisis just being handled as another day's work.

196 & 201: Thanks, PGD. Having someone to make the contrast is incredibly helpful. And since I really am just looking, really, for one person (and, ideally, someone doing brilliant, interesting, things) maybe this all really does work. Thinking about the prospect of being able to go from pleasantly ramshackle to the high Sierra helps a lot, too, when I get worried about losing the sort of little spikes of grandeur you get, say, from cresting a hill in SF, or turning on to the Mall in DC. Between you and Megan, I feel like I have a vastly better sense of how the choice looks. Thank you guys!


Posted by: Craig | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:23 PM
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The toxicity of DC. A lot of it is encapsulated in the great DC party question: "So what do you do?" -- and in the complex appraisal of your answer. There are some wonderful people in DC, but there are loads and loads of people there who have severely fucked up value systems.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:41 PM
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199 gets it exactly right.

... but then, I'm speaking as someone who just spent the last hour and change lying in bed nearly in tears because of his inability to just write a stupid cover letter for an entry-level job.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:44 PM
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183 is certainly cantankerous.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:45 PM
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207: What do people ask elsewhere?


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:53 PM
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In what way is DC a toxic environment? What are the spiritual qualities of some other cities?

Many government jobs in DC require a particular kind of teamwork and putting-up-with-shit, in a bureaucratic setting that can seem disconnected from reality.

California, especially southern California, feels a lot younger than the east coast. The local history is more recent, and thematically different, and the population density is much lower. To me it feels more experimental and individualistic.


Posted by: torrey pine (YK) | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:55 PM
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People ask the same question, but don't even pretend to give a shit about the answer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 8:56 PM
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I'm surprised no one has yet commented on neb's unorthodox use of the word "capitol" in the post.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:16 PM
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California, especially southern California, feels a lot younger than the east coast. The local history is more recent, and thematically different, and the population density is much lower.

To me that would be a case against California. Every time I've been to SF I've been struck at how sprawling and low density it is. The city itself is also not particularly pretty in the way many of the older neighbourhoods in East Coast cities are. I presume that Sac would be worse. In DC there are plenty of places you can live while relying on your feet for your day to day activities except for the commute which is mostly on the Metro. Much more difficult to find that in Sacremento I imagine. How many places there will you have supermarkets within a fifteen minute walk? How many where there are dozens of bars and cafes in that same radius?


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:27 PM
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210: "Where do you go to church?"


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:34 PM
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tkm, there is one original inner city which is indeed super walkable with close markets and bars and old housing stock and trees that close over the road. Then there are some nice inner ring, first development suburbs, which are lovely for residential neighborhoods but not walkable but still only a fifteen minute bike ride to work. Outside that, you're in full-blown suburbs, some of which are interesting for being entirely ethnic but have all the flaws of sprawl.

So basically, there is only one place to live that is pretty and cool. You can't choose which old, pretty, cool neighborhood to live in. But you can live in the one neato, very walkable place.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:54 PM
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Craig, life is long. You could spend five years in Sac and still have lots of time to move back if you end up wanting more.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 9:56 PM
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Right, the built environment in CA is bad. But mountains and ocean in an hour not in four, and the people are different, 211.1 seems about right. There is so much hierarchy and top-down activity in DC, not healthy. Possibly there is an optimal level of bright strivers, I can see where not enough would be bad. Too many are a problem also. Not a terrible place, but definitely has downsides.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:01 PM
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If ocean is what you want for your out of the city trips, then the NE corridor is pretty good. Mountains require a plane ticket.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:06 PM
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The built environment in the centralish areas of the older cities in California is not nearly bad enough to outweigh the other benefits, if natural settings & stuff matters to you.

I've been impressed, over the years, at how much more life there is in DC on weekends and evenings than even when I was there in 2007 as a dropping-out grad student pretending to do research. Almost nothing I'd be interested in participating in, but I can see the appeal to people who actually have fun.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:11 PM
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Also, this thread makes me feel like I live in a dumpy crap town. Probably because I do.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:20 PM
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211.1 is a good summary, it's giant bureaucracies. But even beyond that -- think about experiencing a constant feed of MSNBC and Fox chat shows, while working hard to create the kind of crappy outcomes you see on the news. It's an incredibly interesting process in its way but also fucked up. I can't watch political TV any more, at all.

Between you and Megan, I feel like I have a vastly better sense of how the choice looks. Thank you guys!

Thanks...but do trust your own instincts too. The Central Valley has a particular flavor; the parts of Sacramento that aren't suburban are a little gritty. The place still has a touch (just a touch) of Stockton to it.

since I really am just looking, really, for one person (and, ideally, someone doing brilliant, interesting, things)

Wow, IMO 'doing brilliant interesting things' should not be your first priority in looking for someone. But that's just me.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:24 PM
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221: Yeah, me too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:26 PM
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I was pretty impressed with DC when I was there for the Con. I hadn't been there in several years. It just seemed so vibrant and urban. That said, in Craig's situation I would probably go with Sacramento.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:37 PM
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DC had 'vibrant and urban' areas when I lived there almost twenty years ago. Dupont, Adams Morgan, U/14th. Even Georgetown, though that was a bit too fratty for my taste. Housing was cheap, so were drinks, most of the city was seen as off limits, so most of the young DC types congregated there or if they wanted more space for laughable rents they lived in NoVa or Columbia Heights. The museums were awesome, tons of good artsy movies, theater tickets for free if you were willing to put in an hour of ushering... all in all a pretty good place for young overeducated types on low incomes.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:50 PM
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I'm sure there have always been parts of DC that are vibrant and urban; that was certainly the case when I used to go there frequently several years ago (although the part of the city where I usually stayed was not one of them at the time). Anchorage, not so much.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 10:56 PM
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I'm surprised no one has yet commented on neb's unorthodox use of the word "capitol" in the post.

Would you believe metonymy?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:15 PM
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Sure. But only because I'm a descriptivist.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-13-13 11:19 PM
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There's an audience in DC for Richard Cohen. And folks who consider him edgy. I'm not saying this is a cause, rather than a symptom, of toxicity, but it's not an indication of healthfulness.

I liked DC more than I thought I would, and way more than I liked living in California. Haven't missed either a single day since leaving them, respectively.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 12:08 AM
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209 was the healthy reminder I needed not to comment here any more. Thanks!


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 6:19 AM
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So basically, there is only one place to live that is pretty and cool.

That's right, but once Pittsburgh fills up people have to have other options.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 6:24 AM
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230: No, I need to know how the grading system for cities works!


Posted by: Benquo | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 6:28 AM
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||
I don't remember this being discussed here yet, so I'm going to submit a question for the lawyers: Regarding this petition that's going around on FB about how the guy who exposed the Steubenville rape stuff could go to jail for longer than the rapist: Wouldn't he have a pretty decent case for that defense that his crime was committed to prevent a greater crime? What's that called again?

http://act.weareultraviolet.org/sign/steubenville_lostutter?referring_akid=.377909.c5FmfV&source=facebook

||>


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 6:31 AM
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Also, I hope you will all celebrate Flag Day and the anniversary of the founding of the United States Army in the solemn, contemplative manner which this sacred day demands.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 6:33 AM
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233: You're probably going for necessity, there, but I don't think he's got much of a shot.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 6:49 AM
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233 -- The rapes had already taken place, so his hacking couldn't prevent them.

I hope they don't charge the guy. I was annoyed by the comparison between sentences, but I see that Slate has an article making that exact point, so I'm rethinking my annoyance.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 7:16 AM
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235: So, you can't make the case that if someone has done something like that, there is a likelihood that they will re-offend? That seems inconsistent with many other principles of US jurisprudence.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 7:27 AM
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209 was the healthy reminder I needed not to comment here any more. Thanks!

Aw, don't go. 209 was just intended as a lighthearted reference to 9. Sorry.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 7:16 PM
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209 was the healthy reminder I needed not to comment here any more. Thanks!

waaaaaat?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 7:19 PM
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Glad to see I wasn't the only one who was shocked to see that.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 7:23 PM
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Ditto


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 7:25 PM
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I wore a US flag tie and ate some (slightly stale) US Army cake.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 7:26 PM
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242 is an HTML glitch (user error division). Responding to Natilo in 234. Not quoting anyone.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 7:28 PM
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Every time I've been to SF I've been struck at how sprawling and low density it is.

Huh? It could be denser, certainly, but SF is the second-densest city over 150,000 people, and if you compare MSAs with weighted density, the SF-East Bay area is still the second-densest. I love Manhattan, but it's kind of sui generis.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 7:51 PM
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I hope you will all celebrate Flag Day

Here, Nat, this is a fun 60-second celebration. I have it on good authority that it was shot by a perfectly lovely young man in Seattle.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 8:02 PM
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USA: A-OK


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 8:05 PM
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244: yes, but it combines that with (compararitively) shitty public transit, to create the can't walk there, can't drive there, can't bus there combo.


Posted by: Robert Hflrd | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 8:38 PM
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I didn't mean to sound like I was leaving in a huff. I just have a ton to do. Actually, I've had a ton to do for some time now. And I really need to get back into the habit of procrastinating by getting work done.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 8:41 PM
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And yes, I got that 209 was riffing off 9. But 9, and then 209, reminded me that in addition to being cantankerous and limpy, I also have a day job, which, because I said yes to too many assignments in the spring, back when it seemed like I was going to have a bunch of time on my hands this summer -- back before I accepted a new post that is, it turns out, going to gobble up my summer -- is cramping my commenting style.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 8:45 PM
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Ah, okay. I was worried that I had inadvertently driven you away.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 8:46 PM
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I don't even know how to drive a huff.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 8:47 PM
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250: no, not at all. My job, coupled with my desire to read a bunch of books (which I suppose is a job-related desire, so maybe I'm being redundant), is driving me away from the internet.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 8:51 PM
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I definitely understand. I've been in something of the same situation lately, which is why I haven't been commenting very much either.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 8:54 PM
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Nut up or shut up, you two. Productivity is unacceptable in this community, and your actions have consequences.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:03 PM
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But productivity is sort of like self-ostracism here. What sort of punishment beyond that could you inflict?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:05 PM
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202: Thanks. I guess my crackpotting will have to wait until I get a chance to goof off for long enough to sort through that site's clunky interface or some other published maps or something.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:10 PM
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255.last: See 44 to 50.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:23 PM
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I was super productive today and I certainly didn't spend the whole day with this thing running on background.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:24 PM
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I've wasted a lot of this evening looking at to-do list and calendar apps. So I'm getting things done.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:26 PM
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I very productively just sorted 300 e-mails while listening to this fabulously thoughtful interview with Kerry Washington and Don Cheadle. I have two crushes now.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:30 PM
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258: I find the early part of that disconcertingly familiar.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:33 PM
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It later goes in a different direction, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:34 PM
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I certainly didn't spend the whole day with this thing running on background.

Does that turn as creepy as it feels like it's going to in the first two minutes of playing it?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:43 PM
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I went out and was sociable every night this week, for hours on end.

This counts as anti-productivity because (a) I'm hardly ever that sociable and (b) I was supposed to be doing laundry and packing for travel - I was planning on it, even!


Posted by: joyslinger | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:44 PM
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262 to 263.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:44 PM
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I apparently lack the patience for all that fire stoking.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:46 PM
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I looked up spoilers online and... they kinda make me less interested in playing more of the game.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:54 PM
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I'm having troubles seeing it as a game, rather than a very stingy, time-delayed "more" link.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 9:58 PM
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Oh, the script-blockers I have in firefox are preventing me from seeing more options. Not reason enough to turn them off or use Chrome.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-14-13 10:01 PM
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I haven't been commenting much, because I've been enjoying the heck out of my summer job, which, OP-wise, has one downside: they're unlikely to hire me, because they never hire anyone, because "why would anyone ever leave the office in [this town]?"


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 9:45 AM
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Because, because, because, because, because.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 9:45 AM
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OT: Pizza on a grill is far easier (assume a purchased crust) and better than I figured it could be.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 10:31 AM
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258: Dammit, Moby, now I've spent all day on that game.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 6:15 PM
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Sally Quinn on Hillary Clinton. If there was a God, Washington would have met the same fate as Gomorrah.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 6:20 PM
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273: I've been mostly with the family today, but I did get my own bullet factory going.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 7:04 PM
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275: Me too. Oddly, scales and teeth seem to be limiting factors for a lot of things.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 7:38 PM
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You don't need scales or teeth for anything once you get access to the mines.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 7:42 PM
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I actually never found a way to make bullets (just rifles), but managed to take off in my alien spacecraft regardless.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 7:42 PM
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I know. I want some fucking grenades and don't know why coal, sulfur, and steel aren't what you make them with. Also, some asshole took my bayonet and I don't have enough scales to make a new one.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 7:43 PM
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279 to 276.

277 is wrong, if you like grenades.
278 is really a spoiler I could have done without.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 7:46 PM
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Does the game continue after you take off? I'm assuming I should keep exploring the rest of the map first, in case I need more things on board. Or maybe I need to upgrade the ship more.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 7:48 PM
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I found the spaceship very early, so I assumed there must be a reason for the rest of the map.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 7:55 PM
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278 is really a spoiler I could have done without.

I also found it early—it wasn't far from the start of the map.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 8:05 PM
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There's a fucking laser rifle just laying on the ground. Who knew?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 8:42 PM
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Stupid water and the lack thereof.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 9:08 PM
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Either I'm confused about what just happened or the end of the game is terrible.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 9:38 PM
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Man am I glad I quit that game after an hour or two.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 10:38 PM
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286: Oh, come on, what did you think was going to happen? The whole point of the game is the atmosphere.

Also, it teaches an important lesson: DO. NOT. FUCKING. LOSE. YOUR. BAYONET.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 10:43 PM
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||

I just heard about, and declined to go to, a rooftop party involving large amounts of astroturf and an open bar. Clearly, I'm getting old.

|>


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 10:46 PM
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A rooftop party in LA involving large amounts of astroturf, a keg, and a bottle of rye put me about as close to dying from alcohol poisoning as I've ever been. Which, admittedly, was not close enough to warrant a trip to the ER or anything, but I was some hungover, let me tell you.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 06-15-13 10:50 PM
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289: You'll know you're really old when you stop hearing about parties like that.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06-16-13 10:05 AM
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You won't stop hearing about them. Your kids will tell you about them when you ask why you're picking them up from the ER.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-16-13 10:42 AM
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Sally Quinn on Hillary Clinton. If there was a God, Washington would have met the same fate as Gomorrah.

Being way less fun than Sodom and Gomorrah, DC is its own punishment. People write catty gossip articles like that instead of having orgies. The one success America has had in disciplining Washington is that unlike traditional imperial capitals, the powerful must restrain their hedonistic impulses while screwing the powerless.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 06-16-13 11:03 AM
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286: I got back to the same room as the start except now the alien hobo is lazy and won't build shit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-16-13 11:05 AM
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Gomorrah seems to me to have got a rough deal. Ezekiel explains the problem with Sodom (not what you think), but Gomorrah seems to have been collateral damage.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-16-13 11:17 AM
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Onan wasn't choking the chicken either.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-16-13 11:20 AM
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Is this game some variant on Zork or something? I clicked a couple of times and lost patience.

My gut on DC/Sacramento is Sacramento but that's based on no experience at all of Sacramento.

I am super nervous about giving up the east coastness of the east coast, but what is it I'm giving up other than bad weather and lots of pent up hostility? I think mostly the fact that towns are close together and connected by train. I've spent a few years feeling like I live in Boston-NYC-DC. As someone for whom all travel is a penance, it's really pretty easy to get from one city to another up here.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06-16-13 11:42 AM
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As someone for whom all travel is a penance, it's really pretty easy to get from one city to another up here.

Move to England. Better, move to the Netherlands.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-16-13 11:44 AM
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If I keep playing that game, I should probably just go ahead and install Dwarf Fortress, right?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-16-13 4:37 PM
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