Re: What.

1

This is annoying. First I did it as an embedded image, and it got cut off. Then I changed it to a pop-up image, and it won't scale down to a normal size.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 5:39 AM
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Have you tried praying?


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 5:41 AM
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Heh.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 5:43 AM
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I also wonder about FB: someone says they've had a rough day and could use some prayers, and then a whole bunch of people say they'll comply. I always wonder if they mean it or not.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 5:44 AM
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Yeah they probably didn't really have a rough day at all. All those prayers are being squandered.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 5:57 AM
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So I wonder if hyper-religious types ever get het up that judges are taking god's powers upon them?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:11 AM
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You pray to the court but give the paperwork to the prothonotary.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:13 AM
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This is a bit of legal language I did have right in my mind.

And the following applies to 5:

Sometimes a plaintiff will inflate damages in the prayer for publicity or intimidation purposes, or because the plaintiff believes that a gigantic demand will be a better starting point in negotiations. However, the ridiculous multi-million prayers in smaller cases make plaintiffs look foolish and unrealistic


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:22 AM
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Crom! I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that today, two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom; so grant me this one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to hell with you!


Posted by: OPINIONATED CONAN | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:29 AM
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Also, something about Arioch. Brunch and souls for Arioch!


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:31 AM
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And a prayer for those involved in court cases (though probably not the lawyers). If I read it right, the deal is you come clean to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit helps you lie artfully gives you the words to say "when [you] need them," but then you've got to give God credit afterwards.

Father, I ask You to help me as I face this legal battle. I thank You for being a very present help in time of trouble. I open my heart to the Holy Spirit to reveal any of my own disobedience in this matter so that I may repent and receive Your forgiveness. Deliver me from hate and revenge.

In the Name of Jesus, I ask You to cause truth to prevail. I pray that You will protect me from lying tongues and deceitful lips. I believe and declare that no weapon formed against me will prosper, and any tongue unjustly rising against me will be shown to be wrong. I will dwell in Your secret place, which hides me from the strife of tongues. I pray that you will stop false witnesses that speak against me and cause them to be caught in their own trap. Help me as I reply in defense. Let Your Spirit give me the words to say when I need them.

By an act of my will, I refuse to fear, and I cast down any imagination that tries to exalt itself above the knowledge of You and Your love.

In the Name of Jesus, I now cast the care of this court case upon You. I resist anxiety, and I receive calmness and peace. I believe that Your favor and the favor of man will surround me like a shield.

Your Word says You will perfect that which concerns me, so I make a conscious decision to receive Your perfected end. I give You all the glory for all that will be accomplished, and I will testify of Your goodness. Amen.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:42 AM
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8, 11: Where are you getting these from?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:43 AM
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Is 11 legal? Or via a church? Are these all Texas?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:44 AM
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If memory serves Saint Paul had some very definite ideas about the propriety of litigation and disputation among Christians. Presumably suing pagans was OK, though.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:48 AM
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8 is just from the legal definition of "prayer" via the Free Dictionary (I assume it goes back to English Common Law). 11 was via random googling, and is from some ministry (but turns out, yes, HQed in Fort Worth, Texas).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:55 AM
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9: The Barbarian prays that citation and notice be given to what was just another snake cult as of two or three years ago.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:56 AM
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http://www.kcm.org/kcmmedia/nojs/node/4349

Copeland is in Forth Worth. A constituent of Wendy Davis?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:57 AM
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16: Crom remands to Mitra for rehearing, laughs at your four winds. Laughs from his bench!


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:59 AM
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In the Name of Jesus, I ask You to cause truth to prevail. I pray that You will protect me from lying tongues and deceitful lips.

Good grief. That sounds like the kind of stuff written on ancient curse tablets. Lots of "binding" spells so your legal opponent's lips and tongue can't move. Not addressed to Jesus, though. Thrown down wells so those naughty chthonic deities could TCB.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:02 AM
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I actually have a book of Coptic "prayers" where the spells ARE addressed to Jesus (plus some angels, sometimes). Spells to make your neighbor fall in love with you; spells to make your neighbor's goat die; etc.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:05 AM
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My neighbors don't have goats, anymore.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:07 AM
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Ancient Christian Magic

My favorite title is 79- "Spells for sex and business"


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:08 AM
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Last time I was in Vienna, I saw a tiny Egyptian scroll, dating from some year B.C., with prayers for protection against wild animals in the wilderness.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:08 AM
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"Spells for sex and business"

Go home, Doug Henning, you're drunk.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:10 AM
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109 seems directly on point.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:18 AM
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21: it really works!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:22 AM
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||
This is the fucking shit (and is not a threadjack since George Clinton just wants to testify).
|>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:39 AM
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What's nuts to me is that this is not some obscure document that has not been revisited in 50 years. This is a super common document, that has 20__ pre-filled in for the date.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:50 AM
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Lots of legal terms use archaic language. I don't even see why you think this is a problem. "Pray" is being used in a way that it isn't used now but was common years ago.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:55 AM
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Yes. It's a current term of art as I understand it.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:58 AM
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28 -- What's nuts? This is still the term in use, pretty much everywhere in the US (and probably elsewhere in the Anglosphere). I don't typically use prayer or pray in the complaints I draft, although I'm sure I have, but one would certainly be correct using the term 'prayer for relief' to refer to the section where I say what it is I want. It's a request to the court for specific relief -- where you tell them exactly what it is you want -- and doesn't have anything to do with religion.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:58 AM
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Perhaps I should pray less and preview more.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:59 AM
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Only the constipated lawyers understand "prayer for relief" in both senses.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:02 AM
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"Pray" is being used in a way that it isn't used now but was common years ago.

Shouldn't words now be used in a way that they are used now?

That documents looks bizarre to me.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:10 AM
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Yes, I kept looking at the document to see if there was some other thing to be outraged about. "Prayer" in that sense is a totally standard bit of legal jargon, it just means "request for relief." From law french. Absolutely nothing to do with religious prayer, and never did.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:14 AM
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I always knew you never read my comments, heebs.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:15 AM
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Sort of topically, I'm off to be godfather to a child whose parents and grandfathers are lawyers.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:19 AM
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11 doesn't seem that bad. It isn't a smite my enemies psalm (because you love me and they are unbelievers). More like a Serenity prayer thing asking for grace to be aware and honest, and turning it over to Jaysus of course.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:19 AM
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It's a request to the court for specific relief -- where you tell them exactly what it is you want -- and doesn't have anything to do with religion.

Oh. This certainly isn't well-understood then, by, say, my friends getting divorced or most lay people, I'd hazard.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:22 AM
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36: Don't be so hard on yourself! I just don't remember your comments.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:22 AM
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I guess living in Texas makes one highly attuned to potential signs that the government has unexpectedly become a Christian theocracy.

Message of thread: Lawyers are familiar with legal terminology.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:22 AM
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I'm not a lawyer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:24 AM
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Presumably the instructions for filling out the self-help divorce form explain what "Prayer" means in this context.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:24 AM
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Message of thread: people familiar with thing find thing to be familiar


Posted by: cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:33 AM
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43: Nope. I'm pretty sure my friends were reading everything thoroughly.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:33 AM
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I guess living in Texas makes one highly attuned to potential signs that the government has unexpectedly become a Christian theocracy.

I mean, earlier that day I went to an exercise class at the city-run activity center. It's a public entity. The instructor played Jesus songs through the whole class. You know, energetic ones that you could build up a sweat to.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:35 AM
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When I was back there in law school,
there was a person there
who put forth the proposition
that you can petition the court with prayer.
Petition the court with prayer!
Petition the court with prayer?!
You cannot petition the court with prayer!


Posted by: dead not-a-lawyer guy | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:42 AM
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Oh, I figured this was going to be about the publicising of social security numbers bit, not the prayer bit.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:44 AM
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I think we should use "beseech" or , if we must, "pray and beseech". What is the noun from "beseech"? Beseechment?

I beseech the court in the bowels of Christ...


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:48 AM
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48: Ha, me too.

I feel as though I've always been aware of "prayer" in the non-religious sense. I think it comes from having read a lot of 19th century children's literature when I was growing up, as well as a lot of British children's books. I was always running into words that made no sense and it took a lot of puzzling out to understand that plain English words don't always and ever mean the same thing.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:59 AM
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I pored over the document several times to figure out what the problem was, and thought that you all had gone off topic with the prayers.

Time for some coffee. (But yeah, just standard legal jargon for 'request'.)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 9:18 AM
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So, why does the section above use "ask"? What's the difference between asking and praying?


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 9:37 AM
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52: My guess is just that, when you're in the "Prayer [for Relief]" section that concludes a complaint or petition--which is a fairly formulaic recitation of what, in broad terms, you're asking the court to do--you're in the kind of environment where archaic, quasi-magic words are likely to come up. I'd be astonished if there were some material difference between 'ask' and 'pray' here.

Clearly we need to change "Prayer for Relief" to "The Ask".


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:07 AM
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"Prayer for relief" does sound a bit nicer than "WANT."


Posted by: torrey pine | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:18 AM
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What, pray tell, are you people on about?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:19 AM
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||
We're visiting my in-laws and kids often like to taste the potted herbs she grown on her porch. Kid was out there doing so and she said, oh, make sure he doesn't touch those three new ones, they were a present from a friend and they're pretty... potent.
|>


Posted by: Juan Manuel Santos | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:20 AM
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Clearly we need to change "Prayer for Relief" to "The Ask".

And any request for damages over the threshold would be a big ask.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 11:27 AM
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PriƩre de ne pas stationner: sortie de voitures


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 1:55 PM
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Absolutely nothing to do with religious prayer, and never did.

Wait, nothing to do with? I thought it was the exact same word beign used in the exact same way in both cases. Only its a prayer to the court instead of a prayer to god. In either case, it's understood to be a request for relief.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 2:33 PM
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Sigh. "being". "it's".


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 2:33 PM
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59 -- It wasn't some reference to the religious concept of "prayer" that got turned into the secular one; it's just two separate usages of a word meaning "to ask." From French prier, Latin precare. The non-religious use of the word predates the religious use, though the religious use has also been around a long time.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 2:43 PM
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In heebie's defense, it's not at all clear from the wording on that form that the prayer is being addressed to a court rather than a deity.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 3:07 PM
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There's rosemary, that's for remembrance. Remember, love, or I'll sue you.

(Everyone's so litigious these days.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 4:32 PM
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Maybe they were trying to be religious but got confused by the terminology?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:12 PM
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Petitions to Parliament involve prayers, strictly. (The point is that a prayer is a request to do something.)


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 6:56 PM
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|| I just realized Scott McLemee and Scott Eric Kaufman are not the same person. |>


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:49 PM
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If only it were absolutely quiet here at times.
If averageness and happenstance grew silent
and the neighbor's laugh,
the noise my high-strung senses make
would not prevent my staying awake-

I could in one millenial thought
conceive you in your farthest reach
and could possess you (like a fleeting smile)
and dole you out as gifts with gratitude
to all of life.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 7:53 PM
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Do law-people here have opinions about DIY divorces? It seems like a pretty good way to go about it, if both parties are smart reasonable people and their situation isn't overly complicated.


Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:01 PM
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I expect Will is strongly opposed.

I did a DIY divorce, which worked fine, but it was in a short marriage with no kids and no real community assets. With either of those two, you want at a minimum a mediator, IMO.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:15 PM
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Lots of people do DIY divorces, and they usually don't turn out too badly as long as the finances are relatively simple and there's not a big power imbalance. Probably nicer to have a mediator if there are any complexities, as Halford says, if only because divorce is stressful and often results in at least one party not acting their best self. But many, many couples who can't afford lawyers get divorced with relatively few complications. (Of course there are plenty of horror shows.)


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:29 PM
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66: not remotely.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:33 PM
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Divorce would be more fun if people still moved to Reno.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:34 PM
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68: I also did the DIY divorce, and agree that it's fine for folks in uncomplicated, relatively non-acrimonious situations.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:39 PM
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[I]f both parties are smart reasonable people and their situation isn't overly complicated.

These conditions seem rather stringent in the context.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:48 PM
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72: Oh it should be just like in The Women with luxurious trains and loopy countesses and Marjorie Main!


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 8:50 PM
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I office share with a family lawyer. Lots of people don't have the whateverness to really do a DIY divorce, but think they need to do one for financial reasons. Bad things result.

Not as bad as DIY wills and trusts, I gather.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 9:25 PM
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You can do DIY contract litigation, so long as you don't mind losing.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 9:26 PM
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I found the book that Halford's been working on. LB should review it!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:01 PM
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I think Halford's style of fantasy is more "barbarian warrior" than "dragonlord."


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:05 PM
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Look at that guy's sandals, though. Clearly he's a barbarian who became a dragonlord.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:09 PM
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You always have to check the sandals.

Also. Though the best things on that site are probably the Apple Mart flyers.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:10 PM
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80: Ah, of course. The axe is also a dead giveaway.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:11 PM
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83

Apple cabin, rather.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:13 PM
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84

Rabbit, rabbit, rabbit.

(Curious if this superstition is known hereabouts.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:30 PM
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81: That site is great. Apparently there's more to Tumblr than porn. (Who knew?)


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:36 PM
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86

I


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:46 PM
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[heart] Liartown.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 10:47 PM
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I guess AWB knew.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 11:02 PM
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Why so dull and mute, young sinner?	 
        Prithee, why so mute?	 
Will, when speaking well can't win her,	 
        Saying nothing do 't?	 
        Prithee, why so mute?	  
 

Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 06-30-13 11:07 PM
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84: No.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 4:40 AM
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DIY divorces and property settlement agreements are great sources for litigation. A fair number of agreements prepared by non-lawyers mediators as well bc they are not supposed to give legal advice just facilitate dialogue. As a result, all kinds of pesky details get left out.

Same goes for DIY contracts. The paper says that they had a meeting of the minds, but their minds had different expectations about future events. Or the minds are later not on the same page in the future.

"What happens when this [foreseeable bad event] happens?"


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 4:48 AM
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RTFA!


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 4:57 AM
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84: spoken last night at midnight...


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 5:37 AM
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I have read (from what source I don't remember) that the whole notion of intercessionary prayer as it arose in the West was based on an analogy between God and a monarch sitting on the throne in his court (which of course functioned as a court of law). The idea is that the saints are like the nobles, entitled to a place in court, where they can occasionally get God's ear. You could address your petition directly to God, of course, but what are the chances he'll take notice of a nobody like you? He's got bigger things to worry about. But St. So-and-so! He's known to take an interest in folks from your village / with your problem, and he's sitting right there in the room with God! Direct your prayer to him, and maybe you can get him to act as your advocate at God's court.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 5:40 AM
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84: Yes!
Also, shows up in "Jinx Removing." (I love that song so much.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 5:41 AM
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So it's not the same superstition as "I hate white rabbits" around a campfire?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 5:43 AM
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Racist.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 6:18 AM
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Argh, thanks for pointing out that it was me that said it before, even, Eggplant. No, it's fine. Repeating myself tediously is reasonably low on my list of neuroses.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 7:03 AM
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Speaking of small things, I just learned that Gargamel created Smurfette as a spy. This raises more questions than it answers, but the gate agent doesn't care.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 7:07 AM
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Papa Smurf uneviled her and her hair turned from black to blonde.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 7:16 AM
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101

Hey, where's Crooked Timber? I'm getting one of those random ad pages at its address.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 7:22 AM
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101: it's working for me.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 7:27 AM
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Gargamel also invented Crooked Timber.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 7:28 AM
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But Sassette is of pure Smurvic lineage, right?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 7:29 AM
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94: so Protestantism is basically religion for counter-jumpers?


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 7:37 AM
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102: Basically what the Smurfs said.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 7:39 AM
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crookedtimber fails for me also, the same way. DNS problem, I do not plan to explore details.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 8:32 AM
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84: Yes, but it's hares on the last day of the month, rabbits on the first. Alphabetical.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 10:04 AM
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109

Out of the crooked timber of blogity, no straight link was ever made.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 1-13 11:23 AM
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Catching up on about a fortnight's worth of unfogged.
Probably no one will see this comment, but 20 reminds me of this; (to be said while churning)
The charm Mary put on the butter
is the charm for love and lasting affection:
May your body not cease
to pay me attention
may your love follow my face
as the cow follows her calf
from today till the day I die.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 07- 3-13 4:15 PM
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